Why do so many people hate capitalism, is it not the best system we have?
>>29496987
Capitalism is inherently flawed; there will always be inequality and exploitation under capitalism. Most communists believe in making their "good idea on paper" work, whereas capitalists just say, "it's not the best idea, but it's the best we can do".
>>29496987
Freedom and equality are synonymous.
Freedom = Not being coerced or subjugated
Equality = The absence of coercion or subjugation between people or groups of people
And capitalism provides neither of those states as the dynamic between a property holder and the propertyless is inherently coercive and exploitative.
A small group of people seize control of the resources, live like kings and then brainwash the commoners with bread and circus (rap music, hollywood).
>>29497043
Pretty much this, we aren't saying capitalism is flawless, but it works a lot better than the other bullshit there is. Post rare capitalist pepes!
>>29497043
it's like Winston Churchill said about democracy - it's the worst system possible, except for all those others that we've tried.
>>29497057
capitalism allows some people to exploit some people some of the time. which is an improvement over other socioeconomic systems that allow some people to exploit all people all the time.
its also useful to draw a distinction between being subjugated by a government and by being disadvantaged in the private-sector marketplace. In the former you can't vote with your feet, in the latter you have, at least some of the time, the recourse of taking your business elsewhere if you think you're getting a bad deal.
>>29494813
>>29494753
>>29494258
Capitalism is a step in the right direction. Actually it's more accurate to say that it WAS a step in the right direction. Now it has become something else entirely.
You know what? r9k needs more threads like these. Quality threads, where robots of sound mind can meet to discuss the issues of the times.
But our collective has noticed the rise in cancerous trash crowding the board space. Thus, we offer a solution. Consider these posts good sir, and begin filtering out the cancer today!
>>29497106
origami 834
>>29497124
technically you're shitposting in this thread by saying something entirely off-topic about your little pet project.
I don't post in threads that I don't find interesting, and that's all the filtering anyone should need.
>>29496987
the ones who champion it are usually talentless hacks that see backbreaking jobs beneath them. they think after the revolution they'll be lead comfy lives while the poor do the hard jobs for them.
>>29497131
I'd make a pinochet themed smug pepe with a helicopter in the background dropping a communist wojak from staggering heights but I have shit drawing and photoshop skills.
FeelsBadMan
>>29497172
Filtering would make that process much easier.
And if you want on-topic, capitalism was a step in the right direction because of it's focus on private ownership. However that individualist ethos has mutated into a perverted solipsistic, consumerist nightmare where everyone is simultaenously closed off from each other in their dopamine driven pursuits, egoic social media bubbles, mindless entertainment, and corralled together by corporate control.
Everyone is addicted to something. Where capitalism was once about personal freedom, it is now about personal servitude. Capitalism now is the bloated corpse of what once was an engine for innovation. The system of the future is self-sufficiency; independent creation instead of dependent consumption.
>>29496987
people who talk about "capitalism" are fucking retarded.
There is no actualization of any such ideal.
but Friedman is right
>>29497302
Capitalism is still an engine for innovation. You probably have a smartphone, there's evidence of it right there in your hand.
and if individual people lead their lives in ways that they don't find fulfilling, well why isn't that their problem? Nothing's stopping them from changing the way they live if they don't like it.
>>29497337
>You probably have a smartphone, there's evidence of it right there in your hand.
Guys the smartphone is super innovative and makes like soooo much better :^)
Capitalism begets degeneracy. Fascism is pure.
capitalism atleast lets me earn a living and without being socially functional.
>>29496987
>Regulate free market
>Corporations and elites grow in power since they have the resources to buy politicians and influence the regulations in their favor
>Corporatism arises
>See how much power corporations have? We need more regulation!
>>29496987
"Best" isn't really what I'd deem it. Whether or not it works as intended or works well is something I can't answer (and something that I seriously doubt anyone on 4chan could effectively answer)
That being said I think a lot of people forget how capitalism works and that it's very easy to make it work in your favor.
As a consumer you are basically given infinite votes in the democracy that is the free market. Pair this with the freedom of speech/expression and you have the power to vote-in or vote-out anything you would like.
Every time you buy a product you are voting "yes" to it. Every time you pass on a product you vote "no". If you don't want to pay X amount of dollars for product A then don't. Voice your reason why and if it isn't bullshit then you can convince people not to pay value X. Product A will either disappear from the market or be forced to change the quality or value.
If everyone understood that and took an active role in "voting" instead of just buying things willy-nilly then maybe we could call Capitalism king. Unfortunately I don't think most people know how our economic system works.
>>29497373
People like them. If they didn't they wouldn't buy them. If you don't think that a smartphone makes your life better, you don't have to buy one. But your preferences aren't somehow special or more valid than anyone else's.
They're also undeniably impressive technologically. Imagine going back to 1980 and telling people that those little pads they tapped on in Star Trek TNG would actually exist 35 years later, touchscreen and all, with instant access to pretty much the sum total of all human knowledge and communication with almost anyone, including the voice control. They'd tell you it couldn't possibly happen. It did, because there was a market for it.
>>29497373
and the materials used to make those dildos are used in things you use everyday like electronics
>>29497337
That's a very naive way to look at things.
The people that haven't forgotten the name find it taboo to talk about Edward Snowden. Why? Because he basically reaffirmed to the world what it already knew: technological innovation = advances in systemic control. That isn't to say that technologybis evil. But the rich and powerful use it to extrapolate statistics, gather data, push people in the right direction, make you fat and weak. It's such a complete system that you don't even realize my smartphone is actually emitting cancer-causing radiation and storing meta-data on my internet habits. It's not a conspiracy, just the rich and powerful doing what they've always done. Consolidation.
>>29497466
>smartphone is actually emitting cancer-causing radiation
this is provably false. The radiation a smartphone emits is low-energy and non-ionizing. There isn't enough energy in it to damage your DNA. This isn't like "1/10 the energy, 1/10 the effect", this is "below a certain threshold, nothing happens".
as for spying, you're right, that's a concern. And people who are concerned about it have alternatives to Google et al, thanks to the free market. You can flash a custom ROM on their smartphones. There are dozens of alternative email providers. Firefox never went away. You can have as much or as little of the botnet as you choose to.
>>29497192
robots will do those jobs anyway.
automation is the future.
Losers that can't do anything with their lives will gravitate towards a strong central government.
>>29497537
>implying they aren't subsidaries of Google, microsoft, etc.
and I would like a source on your claim that cell-phones don't cause cancer, because everything in this society does.
>>29497466
yeah actually that is a conspiracy....
>>29496987
Fuck off with this trash 'capitalists', anon
>>29497057
>Freedom and equality are synonymous.
they're contradictory in many cases.
People are born unequal in terms of intelligence, creativity, talent, physical stature, attractiveness, family stability and in many other measures. These all matter just as much, if not more, to your personal happiness and success than does material wealth.
Revoking property only removes the ability to leverage your material capital. The other forms of capital which I listed above are untransferable and uncreateable, and therefore far less forgiving than money in the way that they limit people.
Getting rid of property negates your only chance of escaping your genetic shackles through luck or willpower. it is the opposite of equality.
>>29497537
god you're fucking stupid to an extreme
its not as easy to opt out of surveillance as you apparently think it is.
the problem isn't that you can't take extreme measures to sacrifice productivity to opt out of surveillance
You can't participate in society if you do anyway.
The problem is that EVERYONE is being monitored and is essentially being mind-controlled so that they can be effortlessly weaponized against anything against the status quo
>complete database of everyone's reactions to everything
>let's just not use it
how fucking retarded to you have to be to be aware of what is happening and not draw the obvious conclusions?
>>29497601
>and I would like a source on your claim that cell-phones don't cause cancer
Okay, here are a few.
>As noted above, the RF waves given off by cell phones don't have enough energy to damage DNA directly or to heat body tissues. Because of this, it's not clear how cell phones might be able to cause cancer. Most studies done in the lab have supported the idea that RF waves do not cause DNA damage.
(American Cancer Society, http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancercauses/othercarcinogens/athome/cellular-phones)
>Researchers evaluated whether a cohort of nearly half a million cellular phone subscribers in Denmark had a higher incidence of cancer than the general population, with a particular interest in leukemia and cancers of the brain and salivary gland. The answer was a resounding no.
(Journal of the National Cancer Institute, http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/93/3/170.full)
>Microwaves from cell phones cannot cause cancer. This fact arises from more than 100 years of experiments and thought in electromagnetism, quantum mechanics and thermodynamics.
(CNN interview with a physics professor, http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/06/02/leikind.cell.phone.cancer/)
Also:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/05/27/do-cellphones-cause-cancer-dont-believe-the-hype/
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/cellphones-do-not-give-you-brain-cancer/
oh but I suppose they're all just part of the conspiracy, huh?
>>29496987
The reason capitalism was so good for the common people after world war 2 was because of the threat of communism. Now that communism is gone, watch how low the elites will put the commoners down: as low as they can get away with.
>>29497686
I mean yes, if you're unwilling to do some research, install some browser addons, or be the least bit skeptical, you'll have a hard time keeping much if any privacy. Same way you'll have a hard time saving money if you don't shop around, avoid debt, and consider your purchases carefully. It won't just get handed to you, the only thing anyone will ever hand to you is something that benefits them. Caveat emptor, it was ever thus.
>>29497719
>Microwaves don't cause cancer
>CNN
All bullshit. This was known to us in the 90s when cellphones first came out. People won't admit it because they're afraid, jyst like how people won't admit that years of porn use starting from adolescence fucks your very brain structure up.
>Capitalism has brought more people ought of poverty than any other system
If you go back a thousand years the same would be true about feudalism. You'd hope there'd be some linear historical progress. Capitalism has also nearly ended the world more often than any other system. It's not "the best system we have" either, because actual socialism (worker control, common property) is completely different from Bolshevism and other types of bureaucratic state-capitalism.
Capitalism, like any other hierarchical system is mainly bad because vertical distance is the worst enemy of compassion as well. The kind of utilitarian logic that leads people to justify the atomic bombings at the end of WW2 relies on this dehumanising distance that exists whenever one person stands above another and reduces them to a static set of goals to meet or characteristics separate from their fundamental, implacable person.
>>29497805
It's telling how you don't address any of the arguments, or even any of the other sources, but just blindly assume that because it's CNN, it's false. You're displaying an even bigger lack of critical thinking than you're accusing me of displaying.
freedom is impossible in a society and equality is evil.
>>29497337
>evidence
Try harder, empiricist.
>>29497861
what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
if you reject evidence as a tool of debate and persuasion altogether, then you don't even rise to the level of being wrong, and there's just nothing to discuss with you
>>29497898
>then you don't even rise to the level of being wrong, and there's just nothing to discuss with you
Empiricists don't understand the meta of arguments or even epistemology.
>>29497794
If they're interested in you and they want it they will get it. Don't think a few browser addons, a vpn and a locked down pc will protect you from anything but your own peace of mind. Some privacy is better than none and making yourself less of a target is always a good idea but you have to realize they've been doing this for years before many of us even considered the implications of technology in our lives today. The only alternative is unplugging from the net but as another anon said, dropping out of society isn't really an option for most.
>>29497849
I appreciate you pulling up those sources all the same. The Denmark study has swayed my views. Intuition is still telling me somethings wrong though. Thank you for your rigor.
>>29497118
>capitalism allows some people to exploit some people some of the time
In which way is the relation between the capitalist and the wage worker not exploitative all the time?
>>29498060
Why would it be? Employer needs labor, has money. You can provide labor and want money. So you trade. If either one of you don't like the price the other is offering, you can negotiate. Or turn down the offer and try your luck elsewhere.
>>29497106
I could have quoted the text from this image to create an original comment but I decided to use this comment to share that tip with you all instead
>>29498140
>the cash money you made selling heroin to kindergartener prostitutes
isn't there a lolicon doujin with this plotline?
>>29498118
because property is theft anon
>>29498118
So by definition the labour of the wage worker is gotten in an exploitative manner.
>Or turn down the offer and try your luck elsewhere.
Were the capitalists and the wage workers in a more beneficial relationship this would be the case. As it stands however, it is not possible. Unemployment is high everywhere, which means that people have to take what they can get, thus reducing the value of the 'trade' you mentioned, making it more exploitative.
>>29498183
>Unemployment is high everywhere, which means that people have to take what they can get
Right, because it's impossible to CREATE new jobs.o wait that's actually the case due to the fucktons of For Le People regulations
>>29498177
I disagree.
>>29498183
>Unemployment is high everywhere
Not the case. For instance, South Dakota has an unemployment rate of 2.5%. (http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm)
>>29498249
Well shit, South Dakota has a low unemployment rate of 2.5% I guess the world economy is saved.
>>29498311
in some places workers compete for jobs and in others employers have to compete for workers. funny how that works
>>29496987
There really isn't any sort of system that works for everyone, you'll always have a lower class to be exploited...whether it's capitalism or socialism or communism, doesn't matter.
People will always be exploited despite whatever political system is in place...which is the worst of two evils though?
>>29496987
btw i wont read your replies to this comment.Just letting you know that your beta cuck '''''ideology''''' is nothing but frowned upon in the real world
>>29498582
>most industries have a typical profit margin of 5-6%.
>that's 6% of the labor value (divided evenly between all employees) being "extracted" from the workers.
>that's 0.06% in a company of 100 employees
>being more angry about this than the 25% cut off your paycheck to spread democracy in the sand dunes and pay for the EBT lobster dinners of unemployed niggers
>>29497084
>A small group of people seize control of the resources, live like kings and then brainwash the commoners with bread and circus (rap music, hollywood).
As opposed to a large group of people giving away their things to a small group who live like kings while the brainwashed masses are killing themselves over bread?
>>29498582
And how'd that work out for you, Lenin? A few decades later the leader of the nation you built, a devotee of the workers, born and raised, visited a store in Anytown, USA. And he was so shocked by the array of goods available, and the contrast with the poverty his people endured, that he went home and put a bullet in socialism.
>>29497337
>You probably have a smartphone, there's evidence of it right there in your hand.
> internet? DARPA, Defense Dept money
> wifi? Invented by Australian government CSIRO institute
> transistors? Government funding
> computers? Govt in the war
> modern microchips? US Govt
> Touchscreen? You guessed it
So glad we needed Steve Jobs to come along and invent computer for me
>>29497417
>As a consumer you are basically given infinite votes in the democracy that is the free market
If by infinite you mean 'strictly limited to a very small amount of money that you get if you aren't born rich or win a fucking Hunger Games lottery', sure, I guess that is infinite.
>>29498644
>no corporation ever does basic research, they just leech off the government!
the pharmaceutical industry would like a word.
>>29498644
who do you think funds the government, mr. Dubs?
>>29498663
Taxes. But taxes aren't a capitalist phenomenon. Kings raised taxes long before capitalism existed.
Fuck capital.
Freedom is impossible under capitalism, equality and capitalism are as incompatible as oil and water.
Keep licking that boot. I'm sure one day you will be a millionaire after all that hard work defending your capitalist overlords, and then it'll be your turn.
>>29497815
>because actual socialism
More stupid fucking commies, actual socialism doesn't exist and apparently neither does the USSR, Cuba and Velenzuela don't exist either and no, Nordic countries aren't socialist countries, they're Market Capitalist countries.
Socialism will never work
>>29497849
It's critical theory, the favorite tool of the left. Where they bitch about things they don't like such as capitalism but when you ask them for a better solution or alternatives, they go silent or play stupid.
>>29498744
Right on commo
>>29498744
that picture is pretty ironic, considering the state of venezuela.
>>29498801
>Aztecs
>Venezuela
what
>>29498829
they're all jabbering brown monkeys to me m8.
>>29498643
Capitalism is pretending like extract economies propped up by US Imperialism isn't responsible for the variety you see on the shelves. It's a people reliant on what is basically slave labor producing cash crops on rain forest ashes for their choice of breakfast cereal and shampoo.
Any man who would return the product of his hands and his freedom to whoever has the guile and misanthropy to wrest it from him so that he can go to the store and choose which overlord he'd like to pay to oppress his neighbor every week should be kicked out of society
>>29498801
Venezuela is not socialist, it is not even nominally socialist. Some Venezuelans want to transition to Socialism, they're not even close.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states
I'm not seeing the irony.
Capitalism is a normalfag system. But communism is too.
>>29498799
I like Bakunin. I just want to automate all work and live in peace where I can be a robot on my own.
Literally the only 20th country that was ideologically and economically beneficial to the common man was ex Yugoslavia. Prove me wrong.
>>29498898
How is Communism normalfag?
Libertarian Communism is the only way forward
>>29498915
>*20th century country
I hate being on the bottom of capitalism. I would like to just be able to go and earn a living without having to compete with other people and without being exploited. But I do enjoy the benefits of capitalism such as easy availability of computers, internet, music, transportation and food.
So I admittedly realize how much of a hypocrite I am wishing I could get paid $50/hour to think fascinating thoughts and share them with the world. Though many people actually do- by having a blog thats so popular they get tons of revenue from ads.
>>29498918
All self proclaimed communists I've met have been fucking normies. Partying, drinking, sex etc.
If you're a shut in you'll be accused of capitalist plotting. You're expected to live communally and socialise. Ultimately, for robots, the mode of production doesn't matter, we'd be fucked under any system, from feudalism to socialism.
>>29498625
pls respond.
why are gommunists angry about 0.06%?
>>29498744
There's no such thing as "freedom", freedom is just a political buzzword that means nothing. Liberty is an actual word that means something to all the "dumb redneck scum" that populate most of the U.S.
>>29498967
Judging an economic system by people who pay it lip service where you live is retarded
By your logic, Anarchism is NO RULES MAN JUST DO WHATEVER LOL SMOKE WEED XD
Everyone able is expected to work under every economic system. However, only post-capitalist systems will be able to confront the realities of automation, there is no other way.
>>29498983
even if what you were saying makes sense, there is no point to this post
>>29498918
every socioeconomic system favors normies, and Chad above all else. If you're socially adept you can climb the ladder and accumulate power and wealth under any system by using social connections. Those who are bad at doing this will fare poorly under communism, capitalism, socialism, or any other -ism. Its inherent to how humans are and how they relate to each other.
>>29499026
>However, only post-capitalist systems will be able to confront the realities of automation, there is no other way.
and only capitalist societies can achieve it, we'll start changing systems once we're there
>>29499026
>even if what you were saying makes sense, there is no point to this post
>there is no point to clarifying thought and trying to get people to discuss coherent ideas instead of throwing meaningless words at each other
k
>>29499044
And who decides when we're there? The capitalists?
>>29499130
The masses of people who are unemployed and dissatisfied
>>29499026
Well it does matter, liberty actually means something to people, freedom doesn't mean a goddamn thing, semantics are important in a political discussion.
>>29499035
looking at the world from a "normies" vs. "robots" perspective is extremely myopic.
For the record, all systems that abolish wealth won't have that problem, naturally.
Yes, ever >>socio<<economic system requires socialization. If you want to see how robots fare under anarchism, look at Native American and African gift economies. In short, it's hard to imagine complete anti-social self-made outcasts existing in such tight knit communities. In fact, if you really are incapable of eking out a living for yourself and the act of forming working relationships with neighbors or even family members is too hard, I can't imagine people like you arising outside this type of society.
>>29499181
please explain to me the functional difference
they are synonymous
>>29499026
>Everyone able is expected to work under every economic system
What a load of shit. Why? There's nothing good about work. I'd rather an hero than work for Comrade Chadimir.
>>29499217
>For the record, all systems that abolish wealth won't have that problem, naturally.
You can abolish physical wealth, given enough force to expropriate it, and some kind of standing army to prevent people from reaccumulating it.
nothing you can do will abolish social capital though. And yes, people like us will arise in any society. Autism is a hell of a drug. In fact the tighter-knit the community, the worse it will be for you if you can't manage to fit in to it. The world we have now, for all its faults, does at least allow you to cut yourself off from those around you if you want to.
>>29499258
this. you'll never be able to make robots fit in. communism is just judeo-normieism.
>>29499229
The two words share certain similarities, the difference is the overuse of the term freedom being used in a jingoistic manner(at least in the U.S.)...the term freedom has been abused to such an extent that it has no meaning anymore.
>>29496987
Wrong, while economics are important, they shouldent be the primary focus of a society.
To even debate "capitalism vs communism" or some other alternative is to miss the point and buy into the obsession of hedonistic materialism.
Ancient societies had business owners in the second level on the social ladder with priests/warriors being on the third and nobles on the fourth for a reason.
nobody actually thinks capitalism is bad. it just teenagers who like to edgy. once they are older they will realise how stupid they were
>>29496987
>best system we have
yes, better than the last one, which was then the best one we had.
The problems that capitalism creates have come to a major turning point. It's time for a new "best system." Then that one willl run its course and we'll need a new one.the next system will be socialist but not communist and will distribute resources to people based on their responsiblity as citizens rather than their earnings
>>29499241
you don't work for anyone under socialism (communism much less so)
you work to live unless you are unable, and then you can expect the support of society or your family.
your choice so long as we are not fed by robots is to line chad's pocket, so to speak, or work toward a system in which there are no bosses or rentiers
you seriously need to read a book.
>>29499258
it doesn't take a standing army to prevent you from accumulating wealth. even if you managed it in a post-capitalist society, you would be shunned by anyone who hates hierarchy.
I'm not feeling much sympathy right now. If you're saying a capitalist society with a welfare system is the best system for robots, I wonder what you think life is like for the apparently inevitable robots in Asia and Africa funding your lifestyle through their labor? Can they drop out of society too?
>>29499350
please tell me what should be the primary focus of society
>>29499371
>nobody actually thinks feudalism is bad. it just teenagers who like to edgy. once they are older they will realise how stupid they were
t. some fief lord ca. the tenth century
>>29499386
you do not know what socialism or communism is, apparently
stop lapping up that American "communism = fascism but everyone is poor, socialism = the government gives you shit" rhetoric
>>29499435
t. some guy with long hair, patchy "beard" who wears a che guevara tshirt
>>29499465
epic straw man my friend
you sure showed imaginary me
>>29499435
>please tell me what should be the primary focus of society
Discovering new frontiers as to keep us fit and aware of our endless battle against chaotic decay and death.
Whenever frontiers are gone and societies are consolidated, all that can be expected is a downward spiral into mediocrity and hedonism.
>>29497057
>Freedom and equality are synonymous.
No.
Wild animals are free.
>>29499435
>>it doesn't take a standing army to prevent you from accumulating wealth. even if you managed it in a post-capitalist society, you would be shunned by anyone who hates hierarchy.
you commies always assume that everyone agrees with you and that once you put your system in place, everyone will love it and nobody will disagree with it.
I assert that this is false, and that your system can only survive by force and brutality. People like owning things. They like privacy, and the idea that they have a little patch of the planet that's theirs and nobody elses. They try to create these spaces even when circumstances mitigate against it.
Furthermore there will always be people who love hierarchy. One need only look at all the submissive people on this board to know that many want someone above them leading. And there's also no shortage of those who love hierarchy because they intend to climb to the top of it by any means necessary. This latter fellow is particularly good at either making people like him in spite of his motivations, or at not caring what others think of him.
>>29499217
>all systems that abolish wealth won't have that problem, naturally
I'm not the guy you responded to but there will always be a pecking order in every society, people will never be complete equals as long as their are humans are earth.
People feed off of others suffering...it's human nature, even in your perfect "utopian" society.
>>29499584
>their
*there
>>29496987
Fuck off kike-lover. Capitalism is literally the worst system ever created. It is only ever held in check by socialist reforms.
>>29496987
>Capitalism
>Good
>>29499550
Keep spewing your disgusting lies, serpent.
>>29499477
seriously tho. do you have a patchy beard and a che guevara shirt?
>>29499645
in all seriousness, I like my hair short, my beard is only a little bit patchy and I don't have a che shirt.
>>29499639
the fundamental error of marxism is the idea that labor or goods have inherent value. once you realize that there is no such thing and value is subjective, it all falls apart.
>>29499635
>deaths from hurricane Katrina is capitalism's fault
>deaths from Somalia falling into complete anarchy because shitskins can't manage themselves is capitalism's fault
>dictatorships killing people is capitalism's fault, nevermind the communist dictatorships that killed people, it's the capitalism that's at fault
Bernie pls go
>>29499662
The crux of marxism is not having a society under which millions suffer and the world is objectively worsened constantly, not GIVE PEOPLE STUFF
>dude it's all so subjective man only I really understand just stop trying to live a better life, we need to focus dude focus on space and shit
>>29499639
i approve this post
marx is a god
his theories have never been paid appropriat etribute by being instituted
>>29499635
>capitalism is at fault for the Korean war
>>29499701
You might find the world getting worse, subjectively. I might not find the world getting worse, subjectively. That's all there is. There is no "objectively worse". The same way that goods have no objective value. Not based on the labor that went into them or anything else. They're worth what someone is willing to pay, no more or less.
I might also remind you that capitalism, not socialism, has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of subsistence-level poverty in the past few decades.
>>29499756
>dude ecological disasters are subjective. world looks better from over here
technology has lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty
capitalism just made sure the majority of the wealth got concentrated in a few hands and created a massive pool of what is essentially slaves, and, for a few hundred years, literal chattel slaves on a massive scale
How can commies rationalize that wherever Communism has been tried, all it's left is millions of corpses and massive poverty behind in its wake?
Or the fact that if "the state" provided for everyone, 99.999% of the population would suddenly stop working? You think people who work grueling hours for their family to provide a better life for them would want to work or spend time with their family?
>>29499584
>People feed off of others suffering...it's human nature, even in your perfect "utopian" society.
No, I don't feed off of other's suffering nor do the majority of people I know. The only people who do are sadistic sociopaths like yourself, a category of people who need to be rounded up and slowly tortured to death in concentration camps.
>>29499533
>Actually thinking capitalism fights decay and pushes boundaries. No capitalism just promotes the nepotism of a few rich sociopaths at the expense of everyone else. Any contributions it creates is a result of industrialization, which is not bound to any specific ideology. Industrialization was one of the main economic goals of the pseudo-communist parties of Russia and China. Capitalism and Communism can both make use of industrialism, it's all about how the wealth generated by industrialization is shared. Does it go to the people who actually do the work? Or does it go to the parasites at the top?
Capitalism is a perversion of mother nature's war of all against all. It's a highly diluted form of survival of the fittest, and as such is doomed to collapse.
A pure capitalist society is not governed by reason or cautious forward planning, but instead by reckless, short-sighted greed and economic slavery to bankers.
>>29499808
They are the people who would rather see the whole pie thrown out, and have nobody get any, before they see someone else receive a larger slice than they do.
>>29499808
How can boot lickers rationalize not reading a fucking book and learning what communism actually is
Every death at the hands of the North Korean government is a death at the hands of democracy by your logic.
There is no state in communism. Socialism is workers owning the means of production, very simply. Communism is the pursuit of a classless society via socialism. There, I spoonfed you you fucking idiot.
>>29496987
It is the only system that can survive human desires (we need ai rulership)
>>29499853
and why is it that every society that has endeavored to reach communism, through socialism, has found it necessary to retain the powers of the state to repress their people, and prevent them from fleeing or engaging in capitalism? Why did the Berlin wall need to be built, anon? Why did the workers want to flee the worker's paradise being constructed?
>>29499843
>why should you get half the pie when I get a sliver?
>WOAH BRO YOU WANT TO THROW THE PIE OUT? YOU'RE A NUT CASE, I GUESS YOU DON'T WANT THAT PIE I'M LETTING YOU HAVE HUH YOU FUCKING INGRATE
>>29499877
Why should someone else having more than you mean that you're entitled to take it from him?
>>29499823
I never said capitalism fought decay...
Did you even read my post?
>>29498744
What would you suggest, anon?
>>29499808
>How can commies rationalize that wherever Communism has been tried, all it's left is millions of corpses and massive poverty behind in its wake?
... But capitalism did exactly that too. What is your point?
>>29499875
>every society that has endeavored to reach communism
how about actually non-hierarchical societies
>several native american tribes
>several african tribes
>Anarchist Spain
>the Paris Commune
maybe we would have more examples of working Communism if United States imperialism hadn't destabilized a dozen would-be communist societies
>>29499925
If the pie is wealth, workers create the pie from first seed
>>29499936
libertarian or anarchist communism sounds good to me
>>29499925
Why should we allow else profiting from our labour?
>>29499823
>like yourself
Stop projecting asshole...i'm not a politician that steps over others to get to the top.
>sadistic
Your the one that wants to round up people "like me" to be tortured...look at what you just wrote and your lack of self awareness. Fuck you.
>>29499956
>how about actually non-hierarchical societies
I'm interested how you would achieve such a society, how would you suppress hierarchies of any sort from forming, people are not equal
>>29499925
Why should we bake a loaf of bread and then only get the wages to pay for a single slice?
>>29499974
in case you were wondering those four lines under that quote where examples of non-hierarchical societies not just a random list
if you'd like a book on how they did it until they didn't (hint - capitalist states stopped each by forcibly going in and breaking them up, it wasn't scrupulous individualist capitalists with graft rising up and saying "I want you to pay me for my work, checkmate!" like you're imagining), google can offer you a few with just a cursory search
I recommend the relevant pages of Anarchy Works by Peter Gelderloos for a start
>>29499956
>>If the pie is wealth, workers create the pie from first seed
if you create it and then sell it, you don't own it anymore, and you no longer have the right to determine what gets done with it.
>>29499963
If you don't want someone else doing that, start your own business. Go ahead, work for yourself. It's not a sure thing. It's risky and someone else has to want what you have to sell. If you don't want to take that risk you can sell your labor as an employee, for whatever price you can get for it. Which is your right, it's your labor after all, and having something implies the right to sell it.
But then you can't complain that someone else profits off the results of your labor. They wouldn't have bought it unless they thought they could make more from it than they're paying you.
>>29499925
Not him, but humans evolved in small tribes which were more egalitarian than not and any disparity was directly correlated with the ability and strength to dominate.
When abstraction (money) becomes the primary status indicator instead of raw strength, intellect, and courage, our instincts dont directly translate this because money often does not require a balance of these three qualities and instead an unusual focus on one in order to amass money.
Also those who earned the most in tribes tended to give back most of what they had to the tribe as a sign of power.
Only misers who are uncertain of their ability to generate new resources require hoarding their riches.
This is the ancient pagan answer.
>>29499956
>If the pie is wealth, workers create the pie from first seed
>>29499963
>Why should we allow else profiting from our labour?
>>29499975
>Why should we bake a loaf of bread and then only get the wages to pay for a single slice?
If your labor is so valuable, why not cut the middleman and work for yourself? If two consenting adults agree on a contract that X will work for person Y for Z amount of dollars per hour, who are you to stop two consenting adults from doing so?
>>29499975
If you can bake the bread and sell it for more than your wages, why aren't you doing that?
>>29499975
because you didn't buy the oven, wheat, bakery to sell it from, etc.
>>29500068
>>29500051
Sadly I couldn't, I was born into sub-optimal conditions, which means I have very little chance of getting a loan, education, or furthering my career when starting at the bottom. The baker will hire me and pay me a pittance though, and under capitalism that's the best I got.
>>29500029
>want what you have to sell.
And here is another problem with capitalism. It doesn't matter who needs something. It matters who can pay you for what they want. There's people starving, yet a farm can go bankrupt because the starving people don't have the money to pay for the farmer's yield.
"best" does not mean "good".
It means "least bad"
>>29500029
>if you don't like being exploited, you should try doing the exploiting instead.
>>29500029
Employing a person is not buying the product of the labor, it's buying their labor and giving them materials
It is the goal of the boss and rentier to maximize their slice of the pie while minimizing what they do to create the pie. This is not the natural order you seem to be suggesting it is.
It is not the worker's job to justify keeping what he alone makes from someone who would profit from it.
>>29500046
Capitalism is exploitative. People "willingly" wrong themselves all the time when it's their only option. If you were born in a coal camp and the company credit you earn isn't quite doing it, you may be "voluntarily" working for your boss for that shit pay, but it's not a real choice. That's life under capitalism.
>>29500068
Workers make the ovens, extract the materials for the ovens, sew and reap the wheat, erect the edifices, &c.
>>29500118
that's where "saving your money" comes in.
did you think someone should give you a free bakery just for existing?
>>29500176
But, the problem is, if you didn't inherit the bakery, buying all that and setting it up and bribing everyone you need to bribe, and generally paying for the privilege of owning a bakery from scratch, costs more than your actual profit will be in any foreseeable future.
>>29500176
I'm imagining you telling an Indian child in a destitute village surrounded by forests being clear cut and water being polluted to "save your money, one day you too can be a lord"
he's not buying it
>>29500118
>Life isn't being fair!
yeah, no shit. Save your money and accumulate some capital. Some people start out behind, but everyone can move ahead.
>>29500133
and if charities want to collect money, buy food, and distribute it to the hungry, nobody stops them. When things are less clear cut than food and starving people, how else would one make decisions about what to produce other than "what people are willing to pay for"? Do you know better than the rest of the world whether the store should have one, two, six, twelve, or thirty different kinds of shampoo? If someone wants something and is willing to pay for it, or doesn't want something and won't, that's his choice and not yours.
>>29500156
Pretty much. Life is a competition. Welcome to the world.
>>29500165
>>It is the goal of the boss and rentier to maximize their slice of the pie while minimizing what they do to create the pie. This is not the natural order you seem to be suggesting it is.
How is it not? When you buy something from the store, you want to pay the lowest price you can. The store wants to sell it for the highest price they can. (Replace "store" with "local farmer" if business offends you that much.) Everyone tries to get the best bargain he can in every transaction. There's nothing wrong or immoral about that.
>>29500118
There's fafsa, if you're that poor it's basically free $6,000 a year for taking shitty CC classes. You could take online classes, use some of that money for a laptop or new computer and $5,500 as your "loan". If you work hard you could also get a scholarship on top of your Fafsa.
If you're really smart you'd take that money and use it for Realty. You make 6% of whatever the value of the property in your state is worth. In my state you could take Realty classes at CC, then pass the state test and you're a licensed realtor. Or you could spend $200 and take Realty classes where they train you to become a realtor and give you the answer for the state exam.
Most people who are poor or homeless are that way because they either don't want to work or are stupid as bricks and don't want to improve themselves. It has nothing to do with capitalism. Knew a cop who worked part time as a Realtor and made $350K in one year, only as part time too.
>>29500215
"Buying things" is a recent invention
>>29500190
you don't need to bribe someone to open a bakery, it's not a casino m8. You think anyone who has ever owned a business has inherited it?
>>29500209
why do you think indians flood into countries that are more capitalist than their own?
>>29500165
Workers make the ovens, extract the materials for the ovens, sew and reap the wheat, erect the edifices, &c.
and they probably bought their tools from someone else, what's your point?
>>29500190
So how then do any businesses get started at all? I see them spring up regularly in my town. You're like the no-gf anons who think everything is impossible and rigged against them, and so never even try, despite the fact that others do try and succeed.
>>29500227
Money is fairly recent. But money is just a means of quantifying trade, and trade has been going on ever since one homo erectus in the African desert swapped one fruit for a different fruit with his buddy.
>>29500165
>Capitalism is exploitative. People "willingly" wrong themselves all the time when it's their only option. If you were born in a coal camp and the company credit you earn isn't quite doing it, you may be "voluntarily" working for your boss for that shit pay, but it's not a real choice. That's life under capitalism.
If you're being that reductionist you could say that about anything, including any human interactions including relationships, sex and friendships. The person is free to leave for a competing coal camp, move other states for work or go back to school. The only case of people starving to death under capitalistic countries is extreme forms of child abuse, it's practically a given under communism.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/05/18/venezuela-food-shortages-cause-some-hunt-dogs-cats-pigeons/84547888/
>>29497057
Nobody cares about equality. It's about fairness.
If you do not work, you do not deserve. Some have money and a vision for which they need laborers, and laborers have a need of money and an ability to bring that vision to fruition. Capitalism is simply the most efficient method of eradicating such need.
>>29500215
There's nothing immoral about selling and buying, really, and yet capitalism is immoral. There's nothing immoral about building things, but building bombs is immoral.
>>29500216
If America was the whole world, I wouldn't be a leftist
>>29500228
I am loving this "Europe is capitalist therefore capitalism is perfect and there is nothing better or can be" meme
Indians aren't flooding into a slew of capitalist shitholes all over the world that are more capitalist than the US will ever be, and yet that's not number nine thousand on the list of reasons capitalism is shit
>>29500257
Workers make tools, too. The point is that bosses do not need to exist, and should not.
>>29500258
Trade is not ubiquitous even in fairly elaborate societies. See many historical Native American, African, and Aboriginal societies.
>>29500263
How do you leave for a competing coal camp when you're paid in company store bills and you physically can't?
Venezuela is a capitalist country. Workers work for bosses for wages across the country. They don't even call themselves socialist. Perfect example since it simultaneously contradicts your absolutely ridiculous notion that people don't starve under capitalism. What was the dust bowl, during which food was thrown away to make for a healthier economy while families starved? What were the famines in Ireland in India during which crops were exported while families starved?
>>29500258
>>So how then do any businesses get started at all?
Is this a serious question? More than 90% of businesses fail within the first year.
A successful business is built by the help of your community, a Pakistani immigrant is going to open a corner shop somewhere where you can't and succeed because of various forces that I think I don't have to explain? Or do I?
>You're like the no-gf anons who think everything is impossible and rigged against them, and so never even try, despite the fact that others do try and succeed.
Well, capitalism is rigged against quite a number of people, if it wasn't, it wouldn't work. And that's actual "good" capitalism, when you get into the real implementation of capitalism, which is crony/criminal capitalism, it's a lot worse.
>>29500228
>>you don't need to bribe someone to open a bakery, it's not a casino m8
You sure as fuck do in my country, if you're not Albanian, good luck with that.
>>29499823
Leave it to a leftist scumbag with violent fantasies to bring up concentration camps and torture, you people are so passive aggressive and oblivious.
You're just as violent as everyone else yet you're too cowardly to act on your violent impulses irl so you bottle it up.
>>29500209
You do know that Fascism is anti-capitalist right?
>>29500308
>See many historical Native American, African, and Aboriginal societies.
those tribes were happy to trade. Between villages within a tribe, and in between tribes when at peace, and with whitey when he showed up. Of course some did more trading and some did less, but it was never a foreign concept to anyone.
>The point is that bosses do not need to exist, and should not.
Bosses exist because people have an innate drive to compete. They want to be at the top of the pile. If you got rid of bosses, they'd reappear, as some enterprising fellow persuaded people to follow his leadership and work towards his goals.
>>29500309
if 90% fail that means 10% succeed.
>>29500369
Not monolithically
>>29500378
>those tribes were happy to trade. Between villages within a tribe, and in between tribes when at peace, and with whitey when he showed up. Of course some did more trading and some did less, but it was never a foreign concept to anyone.
this is wrong, read a fucking book
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy#Gifting_as_non-commodified_exchange_in_market_societies
No, bosses exist because a few people have an innate drive to do profit off of the work of others that needs to be suppressed for the same reason we suppress murderous urges. They have not existed throughout history, they are a capitalist phenomenon and are only as old as capitalism.
>>29500427
whoops, sorry, didn't mean to link to that section
the introductory paragraph is more relevant
>>29500427
>>No, bosses exist because a few people have an innate drive to do profit off of the work of others that needs to be suppressed for the same reason we suppress murderous urges
well you can get right on that after we solve world peace then, eh.
humans ain't ever gonna be able to sing kumbayah once groups get large enough.
>>29500308
>Workers make tools, too. The point is that bosses do not need to exist, and should not.
then start a business without one, it happens all the time.
>>29500309
>Albanian
kek that explains everything.
>>29500452
>communism will never work!
I concede
Why Marx and other great leftist thinkers died leftists when it was so simple all along will be forever remembered as a tragedy
>>29500465
I am not a leftist because I want to work without a boss. I want the idea of "employment" to be abolished.
>>29500427
Fascism accepts hiearchy and gives everyone a role in society.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ot1ddKpfCY
>>29500465
>kek that explains everything.
What does it explain? They hold quite a lot of baking-related businesses in many European countries, and they're backed by the drug mafia. This has been their tradition since forever, I remember Albanian bakers already being a trope in movies from the fifties and sixties. It's the same situation as trying to open a non-Paki corner store or non-Polish plumbing business in London.
>>29496987
Socially liberal/fiscally conservative master race reporting in.
If you aren't a classical liberal then you're either economically illiterate or a dumb statist.
>>29497043
>Capitalism is inherently flawed
Everything in inherently flawed, you just picked the flawed ideology that you like the most and deal with the shit it outputs.
>>29499635
Doesn't include the 8 million who died mining for centuries in Bolivia.
http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/jun/24/bolivia-cerro-rico-mine-mountain-collapse-miners
Some historians estimate that up to 8 million men have died in the Cerro Rico since the 16th century, when indigenous and African slaves were forced by the Spanish to live in the tunnels they mined.
The only thing that matters to me is that I get more NEETbux and normies pay for them. They owe me. I will support whatever system allows me to continue to do this.
>>29496987
>Why do so many people hate capitalism, is it not the best system we have?
they're poor losers
>>29500719
communists, socialists, and fascists will hate you since a basic tenet of those systems is that he who won't work, won't eat.
capitalism doesn't much care if you support yourself on passive income, but isn't inclined to give you handouts.
so really you're gonna have a harder time no matter which of these we progress towards
>>29500719
The prosperity that follows capitalism along with some socialist institutions on the backs of it achieves this. Communism/socialism just makes everyone equally suffer
>>29500744
Obviously SOMETHING is working, because I'm living off NEETbux now. Just want more of them honestly. Well it's either that or I get a free GF.
Anyways, we all know that no system will work unless women are treated as property and sub-humans, and we get rid of all non-whites. The failure to look to new progressive systems is why both Communism and Capitalism fail.
