What is your vision of a perfect society, /r9k/?
One supercomputer with multisensory probes around the world and in the space.
Both multiple brains and multiple computers are redundant.
>>29351838
tribes with shamans doing drugz
We all have jet packs and teleportation nodes instead of cars. Otherwise it's pretty much the same.
>>29351838
A nonexistent one.
Capitalistic 80s New York conformity where I work at my cubicle then I fuck my wife in my small but cozy apartment
>>29351838
A neo-Athens.
>>29351838
In a perfect world humanity would work together for a better future.
People wouldn't abuse and exploit others for their own benefit or amusment
Will never happen though unless we can fix the human brain
Anarcho-capitalism
Originaleon
>>29351995
But MY better future is a better future for ME.
no dicks, no testosterone, no wars
>>29351838
Another species. Humans will never make anything but hell and garbage.
>>29352020
>>29351914
>lol edGy AnarCHy amirite guiSe :>)
>>29352063
That another species will obviously just reevolve human intelligence and competitiveness and you'll end up with mankind 2.0.
Unless you just want to play interventionist God forever, human nature is the natural gravity center of cosmic evolution.
>>29352155
Who said anything about keeping you chimps around? I'm talking exterminating you and replacing you with something else entirely, robots, a genetically engineered organism, raising another animal species to civilization. Literally anything but you.
>human nature is the natural gravity center of cosmic evolution.
This is exactly the shit I'm talking about. You're not even special for THIS planet. You're garbage. And you still think you're the center of the universe, as you destroy everything you touch.
>16000 BC
>Chad has a harem and beta orbiters scavenging for sloppy seconds (much like know but people don't hide it)
>what's the over the hill
>It's ogg and his posse of omega male outcasts
>barrage of stones, arrows and spears rain down upon Chad tribe
If you would have it any other way get out me face berry picker
>>29351872
>muh cloud
try harder, borgtard
Liberal fascism. Democratically elected authoritarian representative government with conditional franchise and citizenship. You only earn citizenship through public or military service and by passing an exam equivalent in difficulty to graduating college. Extermination and/or forced integration of all inferior cultures, and then a one child policy until the world population is below 100 million.
From there, state capitalism with a mixed market in which productive enterprise (consumer goods, private research, entertainment, etc) is encouraged, while parasitic enterprise (insurance, speculation, money lending, etc) is either heavily regulated or run by the state. Natural resources are owned by the public.
Radical reform in urban planning emphasizing small planned communities that are walkable and connected with a robust network of mass transit so that car culture is no longer a thing. (You can still have a car and use as much gas as you want because there are only 100 million people on Earth and there's enough resources for everyone). You just don't need to.
>>29352207
Yes. I understand what you're saying. And I'm saying that as soon as you give up imposing arbitrary limitations of such a creation's priorities and insert it into the natural evolutionary competition, it will reacquire the human vices, because they're simple adaptations. We *are* the center of the universe as a matter of fact; the error is attributing that 'success' to our own choices a la free will, not acknowledging that fact in itself.
>>29352207
It is in your power to shrink human population by one.
>>29352280
Unsatisfactory. I've already shrunk it by billions as far as my own life is concerned. I wish to share this gift with the rest of life on this planet.
Every white male over the age of 18 is given a large piece of land that they may do with as they see fit, their ownership over this land being protected by the government (this would be the governments central job.) Any assault on any other non-consenting individual's life or property is punished in a manner that fits the crime.
People of any other race are humanely forced into their country of origin.
Women are seen as property of their father. If their father is absent then they are to be cared for by their closest male relative over the age of 18 (brother, uncle, etc.)
Every individual has the choice to either participate in the market by starting a business or working for someone (probably a close friend for very good pay, given how many people would choose the next option), or simply live off their land. There would be no pressure to work for any reason other than securing practical necessities for yourself and your family.
>Tfw this will never be a reality
>>29351838
A white one
>>29352318
>tfw your land is in rural Nevada and all the women are hanging with Chad at his beachside property
State of constant war where only winners survive
>>29352263
I agree with ability-based eugenics, mass transportation, limited population, and economic policy, but I don't think I understand the idea of 'authoritarian democracy'.
S M
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Huge fucking city the size of the solar system with some kind of witchcraft so it can't collapse into a neutron star. Fast, reliable interstellar transport that doesn't take four decades to get anywhere. If your own district's been taken over by nazis or commies, you can just bail and go somewhere else.
>>29352375
You would lose
>>29352401
So would this entire board
>>29351838
Hungerless, debauched society. Technologically advanced to the point where genetic engineering allows to be who we want to be - or change to it for an affordable price at the drop of a hat.
Work is more a hobby than a passion, most tasks are done by automated machines etc.
>>29351838
One where dogs drive cars
>>29352468
>implying AI won't cause a mass major existential crisis when people are first faced with machine superintelligence and artistic superability
>>29352382
Ability-based eugenics doesn't select for ability, it selects for "performs well on tests". How can you have seen the clown murder orgy that is the American public school system and still think this is a good idea? It's like giving high-school principles, DMV ladies, and the FBI control of the fucking germline. It's a ridiculously terrible idea.
>>29352506
Yeah, probably, at least it'll be one hell of a ride.
>>29352545
>Ability-based eugenics doesn't select for ability, it selects for "performs well on tests".
This is objectively untrue. Social and even moral validity of IQ has been established for decades.
>>29352578
>>29352545
(And that's not even to mention that there's obviously no reason not to double-check the process by extra selecting for genetic markers of morality too.)
>>29352545
>the clown murder orgy that is the American public school system
I fucking kekked hard.
Actual anarchism (anarcho-communism)
The state, capitalism and private property are abolished. Society is based around workers federations which control their respective industries democratically.
>>29352545
You don't have to perform well on tests to get through American public schools, you just have to not be completely fucking retarded / have behavioral problems. If you want to breed, you don't have to demonstrate your superiority, you only have to demonstrate that you aren't complete shit. Basically what women have been doing a half-assed job at for all of human history.
>>29352382
Basically like our democracy except the government is empowered to infringe upon personal liberties a little more for the greater good. For example, something like a one child policy, or requiring a license in order to reproduce... basically the government has a great deal of authority, yet is still democratically elected. Except the only people allowed to vote are those who have demonstrated some degree of competence, civic duty, etc.
>>29352578
That's what I just said. Enjoy your 200-IQ progressive matrix solver with OCD so severe he can't leave the house and a massive hardon for Undertale characters.
>>29352606
>genetic markers of morality
Oh, also, the Bureau of Hearts and Minds made him phenotypically incapable of being racist, so it's Undertale cuck porn. Big blue fish dick, &c.
>>29352662
I'm moving to your house tomorrow
>>29352672
You're arguing against a strawman.
Who says anything about only high IQ types being allowed to breed? It's everyone but complete retards and miscreants.
>island in atlantic
>all white
>>29352812
You mean Greenland?
>>29352833
Have you read what goes on in Greenland? Complete mad house
The American 1950's, Uber conformity to push out the gays, femenists, and other freaks. A time when the American man was honnest, hard working, and patriotic. A time when American was the industrial powerhouse that China is today.
>>29352800
The progs tried that in the 20th century. Why not dust off prohibition, if you're so determined to resurrect dead, terrible ideas?
>>29352833
>>29352845
Plus: they aren't white (you are probably thinking of Iceland)
>>29352846
Also, everyone was drunk or on speed, we were all convinced that we'd be converted into radioactive glass the next day, and you could pop on over to Mexico to do whatever you want and be back the next day.
>>29352845
What's going on there?
>>29352845
>>29352856
It was just a bad pun (white as in covered in snow).
That said, what happens on Greenland? I know that island nations are often fucked; sexual scandals, money laundering, obesity problems, and such, but as far as I've read that mostly happens on the Pacific.
>>29352775
>he thinks private and personal property are the same
>>29351838
Complete telepathy, everyone is aware of the thoughts, perspectives and sensory data of everyone else in the network. Not a hivemind in the sense that there's an overriding directive or force that controls the entire thing, but in the sense that everyone can always consider the complete perspective of everyone else. This would probably have to be technologically mediated.
VR and psychedelic/dissociative drug usage would be heavily studied for their philosophical impact. Not necessarily something taken lightly in a huge free for all sense, but something that would be taken seriously as opposed to being instantly dismissed.
Property would no longer exist, but personal attachments to certain objects would be weighed in when determining who spends the most time with which
Everyone would be fucking quiet instead of spouting nonsense all the time for social validation. Public space would be nearly silent.
There would be numerous public facilities like libraries and such
Manual labor would be handled by robots with very unsophisticated AI (because we don't know what the implications of AI with regards to consciousness are), leaving everyone else free to do what they please to help the community or they could do nothing at all.
Political splits would be handled via telepathic consensus as above instead of in these fucked up circlejerk communities that just get so mad that they blow themselves up to cartoonish and unrealistic levels
And, of course, nobody would be afraid of death, and nobody would attempt to prevent suicide. When someone lives or dies would be their prerogative.
I have a lot of ideas. But right now the biggest idea for a utopian society would be that a woman loves a man not for his money but instead lives him for who he is. She will not cuck him in any way shape or form.
>>29353012
>VR and psychedelic/dissociative drug usage would be heavily studied for their philosophical impact.
It's a good thing that people like you are too retarded to ever come close to any political influence.
>>29353008
What's the difference?
Origin of species
>>29353068
Next time say something that actually means anything instead of hurling impotent insults at me, champ.
>>29351838
A society where everyone else on the planet have mysteriously vanished leaving me with the pick of all the non-perishables
>>29352258
>not effectively making earth self-aware
i see why you would object, though. who's to say that shit wouldn't go harlan ellison on us and everything it became aware of
>>29353100
Very well. How about this:
Your mention of 'everyone would be fucking quiet...' betrays that you're a keisaku-tier cult leader-minded asshole who enjoys power trips of telling people that their natural drive to discuss and argue is 'a waste of time' because 'true awareness' is 'just realizing the beauty of the now and just taking in the present moment', which stems from your profound inferiority complex which resulted in you being too cowardly to dismiss other people in a straightforward way, so you're reduced to passively-aggressively assert that their productive argumentative pastimes are somehow objectively misplaced.
Religious clown. Go overdose on LSD by stuffing so many blotters in your mouth that you literally choke on them.
>>29351838
Pic related
Mainly because a population decrease would be great for the environment.
a tribe of maybe 50 people on a small island full of resources. Worshiping merciful gods. completely oblivious to the outside world
>>29353197
you're fucking retarded and you misunderstand his entire post though
he's saying that cognition communication would become so efficient that argument as we know it would be unnecessary, because at that point all you need to do is present evidence and DECIDE whether it logically fits into a current system of knowledge
>>29353197
>one long run-on assumption
You are so obviously triggered and believe you understand the ideologies I follow because you saw the word "psychedelics".
Everyone would be telepathic, first of all. There would be no need to discuss anything verbally. Consensus would be reached almost instantly because all other perspectives would be very, very obvious.
I was not referring to argumentative discourse. I was referring strictly to saying things that mean nothing for the sake of the admiration of your peers. If you have something to say, fucking say it. I encourage it. But if you have nothing to say, don't pretend like you do and then spout that nothingness just for the sake of being heard.
>>29353350
>>29353380
I am retarded, but I understood his post.
His idea is, say, valid if infasible, but the *reason* he had it in the first place is his feeling out of place in arguments and his desire to in a small-spirited way lash back at those people by implying that their arguments are pointless -- and only in retrospect meaninglessly backpedalling that what he meant was not all arguments, but only those that are 'unproductive'. The little shit.
>>29353420
>I am retarded, but I understood his post.
i like your humility
will let you and that guy go back at it
>>29352256
but chad gets all the betas to die and his tribe still survives
>>29351838
how everything is right now
a world without evil there is no such thing as good
a world without suffering there is no such thing as happiness
maybe without the all powerful families ruling the world if there is one... or have him be good instead of driven by greed
>>29353438
Knowing facts is not humility. I have been relating my achievements to IQ for years, and my educational history, episodic and sensory and factual memory, only implies that I'm inferior.
>>29353420
I was never referring to arguments. I was referring to histrionic "look at me" antics.
You did not understand my post at all
>>29351838
>Filename: utopia.jpg
You *do* realize that's a panopticon, right?
>>29352387
>S M
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>>29353460
>"look at me" antics
Everyone knows that whenever a Buddhist dismisses someone's behaviour in discussion as attention-seeking, the thing so called is usually citing sources for an empirical claim, except doing so unashamedly and refusing to add the '...I might be wrong though' disclaimer by way of appeal to ignorance that is almost universally expected of one.
A society carred for by a benevolent super computer, or system of super computers that decides what will further the human race twoards "heaven on earth".
Either that or our current United States with more libertarianism
>>29353456
don't turn this into a fucking therapy session
judging from your posts you are well-above average in constructing detailed arguments yet focus too much on the motivations of others rather than the content of their thoughts
would suggest to stop obsessing about IQ and go back to cultivating the emotions and behavioral patterns that make you happiest
>>29353483
This picture is beautiful. It's one of those once-in-a-year pictures that make my brain physically excited.
>>29353564
>A society carred for by a benevolent super computer, or system of super computers that decides what will further the human race twoards "heaven on earth".
are you me?
>>29353535
Who's a buddhist here?
What the fuck are you talking about?
>>29353635
>would suggest to stop obsessing about IQ and go back to cultivating the emotions and behavioral patterns that make you happiest
This is the very schizophrenic mindset of people too authoritarian to refrain from telling others what to do, but too cowardly to refrain from disingenuously, unconvincingly implying that that suggestion was just a well-intended, honest piece of advice towards that person. 'Stop discussing and do things that make you happy instead.' How kind of you! And how convenient, too. Fucker.
One without any minorities.
>>29352327
got any info on that pic, he is identical to my neighbor, aslo they are norwegian volunteers wich makes it even more plausible that they are related. Im really curios.
>>29353744
...I have never told anyone to stop discussing, and I hope I never will. Because 'you should' has no factual basis.
>>29351838
Fascism with American characteristics.
>>29353744
You're an autist with a very high opinion of yourself. Unironically kill yourself desu
>>29353841
>high opinion
There is no such thing. Self-perception can only be accurate or inaccurate; mine's the former.
>>29353744
well, why don't you go ahead and tell me all the wonderful benefits of existing in a vacuum, then?
>>29353643
Robots don't make mistakes like people.
They don't hoard wealth, engage in corruption, or make decisions based on Biases. They simply process, then act.
>>29351838
We go back to tribalism with enough technology to support towns of a couple hundred people
Each town rules itself however seems fit and if you don't like it you can appeal to a nearby town to be able to live there
>>29353864
I don't understand. Refusing to tell people what to do doesn't mean refusing to communicate; it just means only communicating facts.
>>29353871
All decision-making programs/machines have 'biases' as soon as they have priorities, which they must have by definition. A 'humanity-herding' AI would still have the 'bias' of ensuring its comfort.
>>29353911
>it just means only communicating facts.
i'm about 75% sure now that you've been arguing with yourself for half the thread
gg dude
>>29353853
You know we had someone exactly like you at work a few years ago. Nobody liked him and he had the highest opinion of himself. He talked the same way you do. He ended up getting fired because he was a faggot that had literally no skills but was always talking about everything like he owned it. There is literally no point in talking to you or discussing anything with you as you will think you are better than everyone around you anyways. Kill yourself desu ~
>>29351838
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er3vu2IVLjc
something like this, i guess.
>>29353947
There is nothing wrong with communicating with yourself. In fact, it's called thinking about something.
>>29353535
So you're in a public place
Let's say a library
And there's a person who talks loudly to someone else about something that is only relevant to the two of them
They don't give a shit if what they say is disruptive to the people around them. Maybe they even think it would be insightful to them.
But those people, they recognize the statements of those two individuals, and they know that they are not insightful to them, because they have already considered the contents discussion. They could participate in that discussion, sure, but they came here to read books, not to reassure others that their beliefs are true or to insert their own beliefs into the equation. Which, given the telepathic "reality", they would do anyway,
So why should they have to be subjected to two people loudly talking about how drunk they got last night when they really don't care and it really isn't relevant to them? There is no reason why it should have to steal their attention. Public spaces are public spaces, shared by other people. People come into specific spaces with specific intentions. I'm advocating for those intentions to be honored.
I see what you're saying now. I think I get it. You see oppression, that everyone has to be silent in all public spaces because it's expected of them. They have to do what they're told.
I think you're right, saying that every public space should be enforced as a silent space is actually not ideal at all. But I do think that there should be more library-like areas where when people visit them with a very focused intention, they should be allowed to pursue that intention undisturbed.
Not parks and things like that, but maybe libraries, workshops, other skill-related areas. That's already a part of the society we exist in now.
One I'm not a part of.
>>29353950
Translation: 'I want to insult you. Also I want to sow self-distrust in you without taking the effort of finding even one example of you being wrong.'
>>29353972
Again, no disrespect meant to your elaboration, but I don't address the literal form of your argument -- sure it would be nice if we were just magically superperceptive -- but rather where it came from, namely the same place from which also comes the Buddhist equivocation of 'you should still your chattering, wandering mind'. Those Buddhists too make the unconvincing disclaimer that such stillness and emptying of the mind should only be done when it is 'necessary', 'called-for', 'healthy' -- but the source of the connotation is just desire for people to think -- or, in your case, speak -- less.
>>29353452
>a world without evil there is no such thing as good
Assumes that "good" is defined solely as the opposite of evil, and cannot exist without evil to contrast it. The conditions of good actions and good behavior can be fulfilled without evil actually existing alongside them.
>a world without suffering there is no such thing as happiness
Assumes that experiencing pleasure is somehow dependent on having suffered in the past, rather than chemical reactions in the brain triggered by stimuli that the brain finds worthy of reward. Pain and pleasure spoil, not enhance, each other, and neither is a prerequisite for experiencing the other.
>>29351838
It's a society where I am the sole proprietor of power. In other words, I am a King, a God, an God-Emperor so to speak.
>>29354112
This is a very good and correct post. Good and evil should be thought in terms of neurology, which knows no neat religious opposites. Good is just the brain coming to contain knowledge and comfort, nothing less.
>>29354076
Your post was literally just one huge projection of your own hatred of a certain ideology and choosing to assign it to what I have to say
If you want to continue misrepresenting me then you are not worth talking to.
>but rather where it came from, namely the same place from which also comes the Buddhist equivocation of 'you should still your chattering, wandering mind
That's not it at all. It's about respecting the environment of the people around you. It doesn't matter what people think about, but when they non-consensually make it other peoples' problem's out of context, I have a problem.
Like I said, if you're reading in a library and everyone else is loudly shouting about how drunk they got last night, do you think that's ideal? According to your logic, you do. I don't. It isn't the time or place for it. It's a violation of whatever imperative that visitor to the library has, unless they came to the library specifically to witness drunken madness, in which case it's not even a library anymore, is it? Designations need to be designations, or else they become meaningless.
Step outside of your fucking box where you relegate people to certain stereotypes you have in your head.
>>29354184
>If you want to continue misrepresenting me
It is you who misrepresents me as misunderstanding you while I am simply explaining the layer of your rhetorics beyond its explicit content. Every careful reader of the thread will see this.
>projection
It appears that this is one of those words that can be presumed misused.
>>29354227
>while I am simply explaining the layer of your rhetorics beyond its explicit content
You mean you're making an assumption based on the biases you already have.
I am being incredibly explicit. Argue the explicit content instead of inventing delusional subtext next time.
>>29351914
be careful m8t don't cut yourself on that edge XD
>>29351872
Is this some variant of the "all is one expressed in many" thing?
Reading this thread makes me glad nobody here will ever breed and teach these things to their children. Especially these nutjobs:
>>29352263
>>29352318
>>29352662
>>29352664
>>29352846
>>29353012
>>29354258
I don't deny that your posts have an explicit layer -- I acknowledged it twice at least. I'm just saying that you refuse to acknowledge the implicit layer, of rather preferring people to be silent than to speak... to exchange ideas.
>>29354301
I'm not sure. Is what you quoted some existing cultural quote? I just meant -- half-jokingly -- that there is a lot of repetition in life and, with the exception of a handful of backups just in case, there really only needs to be one conscious entity on Earth.
>>29352270
>we are the center
How do you figure this, Mr. Bound by the limits of subjective perception?
>>29354381
Please make your 'science doesn't have all the answers' more palatable next time by making it less transparent.
>>29351838
it's where everyone has lots of LEGO bricks to play with
>>29351838
Market socialism centered around co-ops and voluntary communes. Participatory democracy, clean cities, abundant mass transit, space exploration, socialist internationalism, and neo-futurist aesthetics.
>>29354370
>... to exchange ideas.
Which should be confined to a time and place where it does on intrude on the pursuit of knowledge that others are undergoing, and which should also be confined to contexts where it's at all relevant.
>>29354438
>neo-futurist
How is that not redundant?
>>29354438
sounds dystopian to be honest
>>29353420
>psst, anon. Your pseudo intellectualism is showing
>>29354455
Futurism in its original form is an artistic movement that saw the majority of its life in early 20th century Italy. Neo-futurism, on the other hand, is an entirely different thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-futurism
>>29354584
I am too unintelligent to afford any time to considering whether I am pseudo-intellectual.
>>29352020
Hell fuckin yeah!
I want anarcho capitalism to free the engineers and scientists of the world so we can make crazy advanced technology. Ideally I'd live out on the ocean on a giant seastead platform, with an augmented reality waifu to cherish and whatever kinds of guns I could afford, with nobody but the market telling me what I can and cant do.
>>29354673
Almost sounds like Bioshock
>>29352039
> buying into shitty feminist rhetoric
> actually thinking that because society deems males disposable and uses them as soldiers, that therefore war is a phenomena only caused by males
> not liking dicks
>>29354673
pffft.that's beautiful
>>29354673
you have two options
1) kill yourself
2) read a book
>>29354370
>existing cultural quote
Try most far eastern esoteric philosophy. You said one conscious entity with multiple points of perception. It reminds me of how its believed we are all one consciousness experiencing different realities as though seperate .
>>29354722
I read a book
It's called Atlas Shrugged
>>29354326
Hey, what's wrong with mine? I'm the second one you replied to.
>>29354778
then please refer to option 1) as soon as possible
Anarchy. No continuity of government, no feudalism, no collectivism, just anarchy. People are too fallible to manage governments or genuine positions of power. I'm sure there are a lot of governments that could work in theory, except you can't remove the human element from them.
We'd have to kiss the comforts and conveniences of modern civilization goodbye, but at least we'll truly be our own persons.
In reality, it's doubtful any true sense of anarchy could endure. Feudalism would be the inevitable outcome. People for one reason or another prefer enforcing their will on others. They would probably start off in small collectives and work their way up, convincing other members of the collective that it would be in everybody's best interest to capture more and more territory. Eventually, the savage lands are unified once again, and some shitty new world order is established where there was once none.
On the other hand, anarchy might be feasible following a large-scale nuclear war, depending on the extent of long-term consequences that followed.
>>29354714
Bioshock was a shit game written by filthy commies. Shut the fuck up. Rapture would've been amazing IRL, I would absolutely want to live there.
>>29354403
Oh so you got the reference. Tell me, how does it not hold up to reality though? Science only knows what iylt can perceive through the senses, with the added of extension of instruments of measurement which are still crude in comparison to our bodily sensors. And even those are highly limited by biology. The more science knows, the less it knows
>>29354789
You first, looter.
>>29354802
yet another robot who knows absolutely nothing about theory but just gives their opinion anyway
>>29354826
property is theft
>>29354720
Ty fellow ancap anon.
>>29354653
Nice self deprecation. Your argument was still flawed though, and the fact that you started your posts by being a raging tard only speaks to how much you didn't understand a damn thing to begin with.
>>29354772
>Try most far eastern esoteric philosophy
I read far more of it than is any sane. Not on my own, but because other people kept telling me to.
Yes, I know 'all is one' in general and I know where it comes from (basically overequation of claims, 'this basically means that...', a common flaw of brains). I just wondered if the exact phrasing you gave occurred in some film of book.
>we are all one consciousness experiencing different realities as though seperate
This is bullshit. Literally all I meant was that it's a waste of space for there to be billions of similar brains where just one is enough. And by 'points of perception' I literally just meant a distributed sensory organ, just like our tactile sense is distributed over skin. Not some 'consciousness permeates the universe' nonsense.
Cheers.
>>29354849
I bet you'll enjoy looking at the path of the blades of the chopper during your free helicopter ride, since you love circle logic so much.
>>29351838
everyones happy and rich.
Donald Trump is god emperor
>>29354572
If you're a filthy porky, then it definitely would be.
>>29354866
>its believed
Didn't say it was true
However, I get what you are saying. I was only making a comparison.
no niggers, spics, jews, biracials or disabled people so i'm already out of my own imaginary society but everyone in it is white
Humans live a life of luxury and very few people do actual work because robots and enslaved non-humans (aliens, mutants, house elves, whatever) do everything for us. We get to do whatever we want. You want to rape stuff? Cool, house elves/robots/mutants have on rights, rape all the slaves you desire, they can't fight back and have no human rigts because they ain't human! You want to spend all your time lifting and getting /fit/? Well, having a day job won't get in the way because your robot/house elf/mutant slaves do all the work. You want to shitpost on 4chan for days on end and never leave your chair? You can do that already in this society, why even ask?!?!?!?
Slave labor would solve most of humanity's problems, save for existential and philosophical bullshit, but without day jobs we would have the free time to figure that out too.
>>29354884
>I'm an anarchist
>But I support this dictator lol
circle logic isn't even a real term but it applies more to bourgeois nerds such as yourself
>>29354823
>Science only knows what iylt can perceive through the senses
>>29354823
>bodily sensors [...] are highly limited by biology
This is generic religious position of there being some sort of imaginary 'true' perception, not unlike some 'true' reality that is non-physical, that is purportedly purer or less limited or whatever than the empirical perception. Nonsense. There is no such thing. It's as if I posited some sort of 'true math' that 'is not limited by logic and definitions like the math that we are taught in school'. That's what all spirituality comes down to. You concoct some vague sort of true knowledge, only so to arbitrarily contrast empirical cognition as 'limited' in comparison, except you never actually articulare what that true knowledge actually refers to. It's ridiculous and embarrassing and you're a retard, and so is everyone else who's ever tried this.
>>29354782
For one the forced racial segregation and women as property. I'm aware that being against those things is probably an unpopular opinion here, but I find your proposal as going way too far.
Furthermore I think your Jeffersonian idea of a nation of live-off-the-land small farmers to be essentially a demand to give up most of the scientific and economic progress of the modern world - almost all of which has occurred in or near urban areas. I also note that running a family farm is very hard work indeed, even if your only goal is to grow enough to eat and nothing more.
>>29351838
A communist society that actually works, being run by always moral, always hardworking androids
>>29354967
>bodily sensors limited by biology.
Are you aware of how small a fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum is perceptible by humans? Its one example. Also, will you present a legitimate argument instead of just bashing religious ideologies that weren't even mentioned?
>>29354916
your society would only be stable if people were heavily indoctrinated to vote the correct way in your participatory democracy. And your reply with that image certainly suggests that if people started to vote against your socialist principles, well, that just won't do, and they'll have to be brought to heel. The more collectivist the society, the greater the repression needed to keep it that way.
>>29354884
Commies are infinitely better at brutality than capitalists. Their whole goddamn aesthetic is "individuals don't matter, any atrocity is justified". Don't try to out-violence beasts. Win on your merits, instead.
>>29354942
I support throwing commies out of helicopters and having a zero tolerance policy for them, that doesnt mean I support all the actions of pinochet.
And no, anarcho capitalism is based entirely upon sound logic. Marxism, however, is based on entitlement and emotional reasoning. How else would you dumb fucks think that an employer/employee relationship, where one party consentually agrees to do work for another party in exchange for wages, is theft?
Communism literally ignores scarcity and basic property rights (which are, I might add, HUMAN RIGHTS) for the sake of making sure the working class feels good about their life, which ironically it fails horribly in doing.
>>29355039
>individuals don't matter
>individuals
>s
>>29355029
>how small a fraction of the electromagnetic spectrum is perceptible by humans
This is generic religious backpedalling whereby you redefine your implications of there being some vague inherent limitations to knowledge into 'what I meant is simply that our empirical sensory organs are attuned to particular ranges, is all, honest'. It's as if I told you that 'thinking is flawed and limited and inferior' and then insisted that what I meant is simply that humans make spelling mistakes. I have no time to talk to tards.
>>29355045
if somebody has food and you're starving, and they say that you can either suck their dick or starve, is that a free and voluntary exchange?
>>29355075
(Especially to ones so retarded so not even to notice that there is no such thing as a 'small' fraction of anything.)
>>29355090
The only time when it isn't is if there's a monopsony buyer of labor.
>>29355045
>>29355090
also I have literally never heard an argument for property rights that isn't shit, and the entire concept of rights is fundamentally statist
>>29354967
Because your entire construct of 'reality' is dependent on the genetic makeup and mechanistic functions of your central nervous system, and everything you perceive about external reality is a filtered and watered down variation transmuted to the 3 pound organ known as the brain in encased completely within the dark confines your skull. Really, how arrogant it is to blatantly believe that you can ever know everything about reality; you don't even know exactly how consciousness originates out of a complex pattern of electrochemical activity between nerve cells; let alone a single consice and definitive definition of what consciousness is. Humor me more all knowing materialist.
>>29355090
Yes, because you don't have a fucking right to another persons food for fucks sake.
Its your fucking fault for not gitting gud earlier, and for being in a posistion where you're starving and have nothing to barter with.
Plus sucking dick for food isnt that fucking bad holy shit theres a lot worse services to exchange for food.
>>29355150
>>29355170
But the point is that property creates situations like that and it has no justification so far. Justify property, do it now otherwise wage-labour is slavery and you go read Kropotkin.
>>29355075
>backpedaling
And again you gave no real argument other than rhetoric and insults. Typical.
>>29355164
Oh Jesus Christ.
Please tell me this piece of hysteric appeal to ignorance is pasta.
For fuck's, it even has 'we don't truly understand consciousness yet' in it.
>>29355151
people like to own shit. they spontaneously try to accumulate things for themselves no matter how much you try to prevent it. it's an inherent human drive to say "this area, and this stuff in it, is mine and mine alone"
>>29355151
> "entire concept of rights is fundamentally statist"
Then why do you ancoms scream "HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATION" every time a capitalist employs child workers in a third world country?
>>29355205
appeal to nature
>>29355209
because we can use the concept of human rights to try to improve people's wellbeing
>>29355094
So what are you implying by no small fractions? If you are saying it is infinite than you only give credence to what you 'be failed to refute. How can you ever hope to comprehend infinity you small minded peon?
>>29351838
niggers are slaves and muslims are killed and nuked along with africa
>>29355189
You are saying nothing. You are just an echo chamber for your own sentiment of 'our ignorance is, like, really really really really really really REALLY REALLY *REALLY* big'. I have no interest in subjective sentiments, and definitely not put on repeat.
>>29355194
Tell us what consciousness is.
>>29355188
> property produces situations where starving commie scum cant steal my food without working for it
I'm ok with that
Also
> prove me wrong in this particular arbitrary situation I've created or else COMMUNISM IS RIGHT LOL
fuck you I dont have to explain shit to a inhuman NAP-violator like you
>>29355242
'Consciousness' is not a meaningful term, but a residual impression of yours of being something more than a brain. Ask a meaningful question about the brain and I'll look up the answer to the best of my ability. 'Define consciousness' makes as much sense as 'define soul'.
Impossible, but:
Nobody harms or exploits nonhumans for any reason aside from immediate unavoidable physical harm or threat of death.
No human harms any other human(s) unless that/those human(s) break the previous law or harm(s) (an)other human(s) for any reason other than defying the first law.
Humans who disobey either or both of the previous laws are executed unless the death or harm caused can be proven to have been accidental.
Women, niggers, muslims and jews as we know them now are nonexistent.
Children are granted solely to those who can adequately provide for them in specific contexts.
Universal environmental reverence.
Organized religion is nonexistent.
There are much more, though they can't be elaborated on here for brevity' sake.
None of this is even remotely possible technologically/biologically because human nature and reality isn't a science fiction fantasy, but it's still fun to imagine.
Cheers on an interesting thread, OP.
>>29355259
just become an egoist dude it's obvious you don't give a shit about other people so why recognise their arbitrary rights that you can't even argue for?
>>29355229
You can make billions of dollars off of Africa if you don't nuke it though.
>>29355262
>>29355242
In other words, grow out of the delusion that just because a term happens to exist, then it is descriptive.
>>29355226
and I assert that an appeal to nature is needed at some point. Humans do have innate traits and tendencies, and if you dig down deep enough, you run into them. We're not as far removed from apes as we like to think we are.
>>29355234
And you still don't have an argument. You are just an echo chamber of failed sarcasm and more insults to hide your complete loss of anything actually meaningful to contribute to and argument you've already lost. Fuck off, small brain.
>>29355279
yes but this is a thread about a perfect society and you've yet to bridge the is/ought gap
>>29355287
>And you still don't have an argument.
It was you who brought up a vacuous 'how can you be sure' back in >>29354381. Appeals to ignorance have no possible reply.
>>29355262
How does consciousness originate from the brain?
>>29355304
'How does soul originate from the brain?'
Try again. It's hard, I know -- it takes education to even begin to ask proper questions.
>>29354973
>For one the forced racial segregation and women as property. I'm aware that being against those things is probably an unpopular opinion here, but I find your proposal as going way too far.
The racial segregation is actually not a racist proposal, it's a practical one. In order for every individual to have their own land, obviously there are just too many people for that to work, and so race is the best determining factor I could think of for who gets civil status in the society.
The females as property thing was mostly hyperbole. I don't really have any justification for it other than the fact that every generation besides the relatively recent ones have acknowledged women as requiring male protection and leadership.
>Furthermore I think your Jeffersonian idea of a nation of live-off-the-land small farmers to be essentially a demand to give up most of the scientific and economic progress of the modern world
I would ask what scientific "progress" would I be giving up? I suspect this objection is more out of feeling than reason; that is, the idea of living off the land just SEEMS unscientific and against progress, when it's really not.
Also I reject the notion of productivity and efficiency as valuable as an end in itself. The freedom of the individual to set their own ends for their life ought to be the only goal of society.
>I also note that running a family farm is very hard work indeed, even if your only goal is to grow enough to eat and nothing more.
That's true, but it's not as if just one person has to do everything himself. I imagine small communities helping each other either with manual labor or equipment, lending the help of their sons, etc.
Also, as I said, there is a choice. Most people I assume would have a mix; a small farm to stockpile food, and working for a local business for more food and some luxuries.
>>29351838
Towns small enough to have community (100-1000 pop.)
One ethnicity
Liberty of the individual
Strong barter system
No usury
Education focus on critical thought
Self sustaining
>>29355302
And the original point was it can't all be known. Nice way of fucking yourself there.
>>29355324
>The racial segregation is actually not a racist proposal, it's a practical one. In order for every individual to have their own land, obviously there are just too many people for that to work, and so race is the best determining factor I could think of for who gets civil status in the society.
what if you're mixed
>>29355319
I said consciousness. Why do you keep referring to soul. Stop evading the question, since you claim to know so much give a real answer. Otherwise fuck.
>>29355335
And what fairness to those who are disabled, unskilled, or unmotivated? What happens when capitalism takes over and populations gravitate towards cities? What happens when s trading bonds and stocks overtake bartering?
It'll happen. It always does.
>>29355364
*off
Hhcghvj
>>29355036
>heavily indoctrinated
Dominant ideologies exist in whichever modern society you are in, whether they fascist, liberal, or Stalinist. Hell, the Western populations are indoctrinated into liberal capitalism.
>well, that just won't do, and they'll have to be brought to heel. The more collectivist the society, the greater the repression needed to keep it that way.
I'm not a fan of authoritarianism, and frankly don't see how a bottom-up democratic socialist society would be more repressive than a democratic capitalist society. History has shown that the readiness for liberal capitalists to support repression in the face of dissenting ideologies. FFS, look at the Pinochet and fascist sympathizers in this thread.
>>29355364
>I said consciousness. Why do you keep referring to soul.
Because those two concepts are equally vague.
>evading the question
There is no question. Your question is like 'why does the universe exist'. Ask me about cosmological eras, or some sort of space curvature, or fundamental constants, or whatever, and I will again try (hypothetically of course -- not really) to answer. But you must choose a meaningful aspect of the thing. Ask me about the physical connections involved with associating sensory stimuli with emotions and abstract knowledge, and I'll (hypothetically) try to look it up. Or about parts of brain involved in sense of importance of doing something (failing to forget). 'How does consciousness work' can only be replied by telling you to fuck off to a library.
>>29355350
>mixed
*buzzer sound* bye, you lose.
>>29354827
Yet another egotist whose faulty views can be propped up only by debasing other people. Red herrings wouldn't be a necessary tactic if any of your opinions had merit to begin with.
>>29355485
wanna grow
up to be
be a DEBASER
DEBASER
>>29355234
>the world is scary and unknown
>I must try and fit everything into my small little box of a viewpoint
>>29355511
I am open to any and all viewpoints I'm not aware of.
Should you come up with a well-defined one that refers to more than 'ur close minded', let me know.
>>29354673
>anarcho-capitalism
What if someone starts a communist revolution, what then?
>>29353039
That would be great and would actually eliminate a lot of other destructive shit by the nature of human attraction/relationships not being ruled by women's hypergamous impulses and resource whoring(?)/hoarding and other related things.
If only.
>>29355447
I conclude my original point. Scientist don't know everything and never will.
>>29355542
'What's the bllbbbbbbbbbbllpp ppppl of lfgfhhhhppp? What? You can't give an answer? Proof science doesn't know everything, right here.'
Everyone gets along. Everyone is loved. Everyone is happy.
We will never live in that world
>>29355447
>equally vague
You say it as if you don't acknowledge the fact of your existence
>>29355560
>this as an example
ok
>>29355571
I don't refer myself to conscious in any spiritual sense. For me, the word 'conscious' refers just to decreased brain activity as in sleep. Similarly, I don't consider myself alive either except for happening to exhibit some chemical functions a bit more intensely.
>>29355410
>what fairness to those who are disabled, unskilled or unmotivated
LOL I can only imagine what twisted sense of fairness you must claim.
Fairness of the disabled: Family or friends support if they can.
Fairness of the unskilled: Learn to survive by your own means or learn a skill to thrive.
Fairness of the unmotivated: survive as a beggar (if you can) or die to do lack of motivation.
Also, it was a question regarding ideal society not society 100 years after your ideal society.
Nothing I stated was against capitalism. Owning capital is a natural product of liberty of the individual. Populations will always gravitate towards trade/commerce/prosperity, that is not the issue. Usury is a sin and no man should benefit from money practices.
>>29355601
>implying I ever introduced spirituality
>YOU did
>>29355641
'Consciousness' is a spiritual term. If a neuroscient mentioned it, I would lose a fair bit of respect for him.
>>29355601
>chemical functions somehow related to being consciously aware of being conscious
Yep
>>29355660
>neuroscient
(Incidentally: funny typo. I just forgot -ist, but considering 'scient' is a participle, 'neuroscient' actually participially means 'knowing about nerves' as well.)
>>29355660
OK, so to heck with semantics. Pick a different word. Is awareness OK?
>>29355687
Well, what about being aware of being aware? It's just a structure our brains are capable of holding. It's a simple syllogism, 'brains are able to think about brains being able to think about [...], and there's one in my skull too'.
>>29355710
No.
>>29355756
So in effect, hall of mirrors?
That sounds infinite
>no
Whatever word is good for you, bud.
>>29355808
>That sounds infinite
We tend to expand sequences 'x of x of x...' into infinity for some reason, yes. The exact substrate of this tendency could make a decent thesis perhaps, I imaigne.
>>29352118
it worked for courbet and his friends
>>29351838
Oneida 2.0. Now with orgasms and birth control.
>>29355831
Would it not have to be infinite? If that chain ended at some point then 'what' is doing the observing? And don't say the brain, unless you agree that an infinite cycle of self reference is its nature. Otherwise, refer to the begging of this post
>>29355929
>Would it not have to be infinite? If that chain ended at some point then 'what' is doing the observing?
What are you talking about? 'It' and 'that chain' (let's call it A) do not exist objectively; they are just models that can occur in the brain. Sometimes, that model can terminate after two, ten, or a million items (n = 2, 10, ...), sometimes n = infinity, sometimes it is represented as a formula, nA = f(A)... all those different models occur in different circumstances, as sensory stimuli provoke them. Neuroscience is about learning the exact electrical changes that correspond to, correlate with, are excited so to denote, the particular variations. It's about learning the physical substrate of the difference between a body thinking about x = {1, 2, 3}, x = {1, 2, 3, ...}, and x = {}.
>>29356047
...As well as, of course, thinking about sequences or sets or whatever 'in themselves', abstractly as opposed to in addition denoting existing external objects (for instance, a set of chairs in the room).
>>29356047
>objectively
How do you use this term
>models in the brain
Like everything right?
Technicalities are meaningless for this discussion
>>29356119
>How do you use this term
I see no room for either elaboration or digression in this question of yours.
>Like everything right?
I see no reason to believe that the phrasing that 'everything is a mental model' belongs in a parsimonious worldview.
>>29356112
>in themselves
So say its abstract then.
How do you relate abstract models to concrete experience tho?
>>29356156
>no room
More like no need, since the terms objective and subjective are interchangeable
>everything is a mental model
Kudos
>>29356173
>How do you relate abstract models to concrete experience tho?
I don't know, I'm not a neuroscientist. I'm interested in linguistics and computer science myself if anything. I'm going to just vaguely and hopelessly say 'imaging'. Clearly there are some very general functions that enable abstraction though, i.e. resulting in people naturally deriving the concept of tree or cat or number from experience. They must involve some single common mechanism. Again not what I'm privately interested most at the moment though.
>>29356223
I'm not interested in playing along and telling you 'don't quote me out of context', anon.
I really just want a gf and free money
>>29356265
I'm just saying that despite all of the calculations and mechanisms of brain function, it still requires and 'observer' to perceive the effects of these actions. This is the question I originally brought up,the paradox that no one can seem to answer. It can't be quantified.
>quote out of text
Ita just a helpful little insight anon, take it or leave it. Truth, as far as it can be known, remains. And that's a fundamental one.
>>29356407
>despite all of the calculations and mechanisms of brain function, it still requires and 'observer' to perceive the effects of these actions
This is just a tautology. 'For something to be perceived, it requires a perceiver.' 'For something to be eaten, it requires an eater.' Asking why it is the case is like the proverbial 'why is there something rather than nothing'.
>>29356440 >>29356407
(Which is, again, just you failing to identify when your sense of confusion leads you into a dead end.)
>>29356440
You can't deny what is literally in front of your face. There is a reason for ancient philosophy and esoterics; to try and answer things scientist won't even attempt to.
>>29356508
>You can't deny what is literally in front of your face.
My brain throws meaningless questions like that at me all the time. Everyone's does. The difference is that I have the modicum of self-awareness to recognize them for the mental chaff they are and direct myself towards subjects of substance instead.
>>29356467
>tautology
And what has science achieved other than over complication by way of labelings and definitions which uultimately lead nowhere. You have no answer, its ok to admit it. You are human
>>29356537
>>29356508
(Because I recognize them for just random mismatches of swathes of neurons pitting vague concepts such as, off the top of my head, 'why are concepts mental', or 'why is reality subjective', or 'what is perception of time', or 'did evolution self-create'. They are just misfirings.)
>>29356537
>carnal minded
Different strokes, different folks
>>29356573
This post contains no sense.
>>29356593
I take offense to being called anyhow 'minded' and ask that you refer to me as 'carnal-brained' instead.
>>29356604
Think about it. Sciences purpose is to answer questions. Questions lead to more questions; topics are interrelated. Eventually science comes to the big questions about how we came about it the origin of the cosmos. They study and label and create theories. And yet they haven't figured out shit. Kinda tautological.
>>29356666
>a perceiver to perceive
This is basically they're 'intellectualized' answer. Its not an answer.
>>29356666
>Sciences purpose is to answer questions. Questions lead to more questions; topics are interrelated. Eventually science comes to the big questions about how we came about it the origin of the cosmos. They study and label and create theories.
Not exactly, Satan. Science doesn't come to anything; brains do. Science is just a term that refers to practical application of statistics and such -- in fact, it's vague too and I don't use it a lot either. Very often, a cerebral situation in someone's head will, in addition to engendering further thoughts denoting meaningful empirical questions ('cats have paws' -> 'why are cat paws shaped...' -> 'why are bones...'), provoke misfirings. But their emergence only says about humans, not about science itself.
>>29356737
>>29356666
That said, for all your baiting, this actually turned out a nice discussion. But I'm tired now. Thanks.
>>29351838
Totalitarian absurdism
One where nothing exists. I'm not even talking about lel anarchy epic looting lmao xDDD I'm talking about silence, lack of everything. No humans, no other animals, no microbes, no green hills, no deserts. Nothing. No earth. We don't deserve to exist as a species, we fuck up everything we touch, even if we made a perfect utopia where we all held hands and finally came to a genuine peace agreement we'd still find some way to shit it up and go back to our old ways given enough time. I don't have a perfect society, we don't deserve one.
