Do you think plants have some form of consciousness?
I was just pulling some thyme of my plant to put in my food and I started thinking about it. We only ascribe animals consciousness because they react human-like to things like pain, hunger, affection etc. But plants don't seem to react, but maybe it's just because we don't understand their communication, or they're too slow or whatever else.
I'm not a vegetarian but I sometimes feel sorry for the animals getting abused to bring me eggs, milk and steak. I never feel bad for the tomato plants or trees or whatever. Except today when i was picking thyme.
What do you think?
There are some religious sects that don't eat entire plants because of this, or root vegetables I think.
Not eating fruit is stupid, though, because fruit is literally designed to be eaten so that you'll shit out the seeds later (supposedly somewhere on the ground, but obviously humans have sewer systems) and allow the plant to reproduce in a new location.
>>28796740
no
animals are not conscious and neither is anyone who isn't yourself.
>>28796740
Consciousness appears to at least require a brain. I am not going to make a statement whether consciousness comes from the brain or if the brain only revives your consciousness, that is really up to your belief, but no matter what the brain is required for consciousness.
Plants don't have any brains last I checked. I mean, dear heavens I hope they don't have a brain, imagine how boring their lives must be.
>>28797960
receives* not revives
>have to wait 30 seconds to fix the reply
>>28797960
Depends on if their subjective view of time is the same as ours
We basically see them as inanimate, non-moving objects, but if they operated on a faster subjective scale, they'd feel themselves rapidly growing and expanding and shit while everything around them whizzes by like cracked out lightspeed figments. But then they would feel themselves die and decay equally as quickly.
Plants do at least possess limited adaptive awareness (some plants have reflexes, plants grow towards a source of light and, when moved, will alter their growth patterns to better receive light, etc.) but whether that can be called real self-awareness and not some automatic mechanical process is at best debatable. Although self-awareness itself seems like an automatic mechanical process, too, sometimes...
>>28798059
But still, how could they have a faster perception of time without a brain (or soul which would still require a brain) with which to actually analyze their perceptions? Plants have sensing abilities but without a brain to perceive these senses they are very limited in use. Leaves gravitate towards the sun, but I wouldn't exactly say that the plant is in love with the sun.
Maybe after a few millions of years plants will develop intelligence, but I doubt they have it now. To speculate on whether they have consciousness, ours comes from the brain, and plants don't have a brain, so plants don't have consciousness. And a "different" form of consciousness would not be the same as our consciousness and would have no right to be called as such, a new term would have to be coined.
>>28798324
>But still, how could they have a faster perception of time without a brain (or soul which would still require a brain) with which to actually analyze their perceptions?
Oh I wasn't asserting that they actually do. I was saying IF they did, there would be as much potential for their lives to be "not boring" as there is in any other living creature's life. Which isn't much.
>>28796740
I don't think they're conscious in the same way we are, but it seems possible that they could feel basic emotions like pain and joy.
>>28796740
Consciousness doesn't exist, only action and reaction does. Nothing is conscious.
>>28796740
Not in any way that we define "consciousness." We don't consider most animals to really be conscious either. Of course, you could say this is an arbitrary self-interested definition for humans, but it's the one we got.
However, I don't think it's arguable that plants are alive and do react to things in their own way. It could also be arbitrary to say that a plant's life matters less just because a plant isn't conscious. Life is life, and some of it has to die in order for us to live.
Eh, I don't know, up to you.
>>28796740
If you assume consciousness arises in any significantly complex system, like brains, or insect nerve knots, then yeah, plants have consciousness.
My guess is the bigger the plant the more advanced it is, so a single bush< a tree< a network of trees< etc
>>28798324
I read about that a while ago and trees have points where their equivalent of nerves coalesce into something you could call their equivalent of a brain.
>>28796740
>But plants don't seem to react
Can you recall the smell of freshly mowed grass? That is the smell grass gives off when it is in danger.
It's the smell of chemical defenses and first aid. The fresh "green" scent of a just-mowed lawn trying to save itself from injury you just inflicted. Leafy plants release a number of volatile organic compounds called green leaf volatiles.
>>28797660
At least that's all we know for sure.
>>28798638
Yeah they even have some sort of memory.
Fucking plants man.
>>28796740
Nah. You need a brain for that.
Then again, plants have been able to solve some pretty complex evolutionary dilemmas without the use of a brain. Dilemmas that would require a good deal of conscious intelligence, not only of themselves but of organisms around them.
>>28798461
r9k: the post
(spoiler)original bullshit(/spoiler)
>>28798762
Prove any consciousness exists beside your own. Just fucking try. You can't even properly DEFINE consciousness.
I don't think so.
I still feel bad if I accidently break a branch or some stuff like that unintentionally though.
sorry tree :c
I am the only thing that really exists. Everything and everybody else are only illusions. It's so obvious; I've never been able to understand why nobody else but me can see this. I guess it has something to do with your being illusions.
>>28798856
Pls.
If you ever truly understood what you were you would cease to be
>>28798784
>>28798762
I (>>28798461) am not saying that only my consciousness exists. Solipsism is supremely retarded. I'm simply informing you that consciousness doesn't exist, including mine.
>>28799032
>>28799032
>I'm simply informing you that consciousness doesn't exist, including mine.
With an absolute as bold as this one, you really should show us a proof.
>>28799170
>proof of nonexistence
Only the brain and the body exists. Some stimuli provoke some reactions. Presence of chemicals or frequencies provokes specific evolved muscular tensions. Presence of some geometric light patterns going through the eyes provoke reactions which follow certain numeric patterns, for instance light that spells 'shout this number of times: x x x' provokes the corresponding emission of three noises. That's all. It's mechanistic. There is no consciousness, no awareness, nothing like that.
good threadorigino
You need a harddrive like a brain to think so no they can't think.
But they can react, that has nothing to do with pain tho, they spray some shit to warn other plants so they pull their juice down to the roots to get back when the top is eaten down, grass does this.
But i think in an more spiritual sense that every thing in this universe has a soul, something that holds the atoms together, something that keeps the dna running, an heavenly presence.
Just meditate and look at a flower, you will sense something in it, something beautiful.
But there is literally nothing wrong with eating it.
Nor do they feel pain.
>>28799284
>Only the brain and the body exists
What a bold statement.
Can you prove that?
If you can't show that this premise is true, then your argument is worthless, but the rest looks fine enough.
>>28799284
>proof of nonexistence
Yes, a proof of nonexistence, it's a perfectly reasonable thing to ask for.
If something can not exist it must not exist, therefore by showing that it is impossible for something to exist, you can prove without a doubt that it does not exist.
>>28799546
>>28799671
Tip: is a concept necessary to explain the world? If not, get rid of it. Do we need any sort of inspecific, undefined 'consciousness' to explain human beings? No, understanding the body suffices. Consciousness is as real as the soul.
>>28796740
Yes, everything has consciousness. Or to put it another way, everything IS consciousness. Consciousness is the ultimate reality of the universe, everything else is just window dressing. That means when you get down to it, your consciousness and that of your thyme are one and the same, no matter how distantly seperated you may appear to be.
>>28799850
There are few things as intellectually disgusting as seeing the hypermetonymic brain of a mentally ill person. 'Some things think, therefore some things have consciousness, thereforeallthingshaveconsciousnessTHEREFOREALLTHINGSARECONSCIOUSNESSTHEREFOREALLISCONSCIOUSNESS'. What a trainwreck of nonsense.
>>28799896
No need for such hostility, friend. Besides, you got the reasoning backward: it's deductive, not inductive. You begin with consciousness, then move to particular forms and structures.
>>28796740
Probably not, but that said I talk to my plants and make sure they're cared for well, even though it brings me no benefit other than the ability to marvel at the beauty of life, so if I'm doing all that shit maybe there is something more to plants than we know.
>>28800136
Aha, you begin with an assumption of reality of a concept you're attached to and then endow as much as it gets with it. Got it.
>>28800201
Plants are alive but they don't have conciousness. The idea of "pain" is biologically not the same in plants as it is in animals. So it's not as "cruel" to kill them because we cannot understand any plant-equivalent of "feeling"
There is a reaction to stimulus, but that does not constitute "feeling"
You rip them out of the womb of Mother Earth and eat them while they're still alive, like eating a bloody fetus that was snatched out of your mom's vagina. And still alive when you swallow it, you can still feel its little hands and feet kicking as it goes down your throat.
>>28796740
You can't be this fucking retarded. It's about having a well developed central nervous system - literally having nerve cells.
>>28800201
Just a different perspective. Materialism is useful in its limited sphere, but it's a spiritual dead end.
>>28800498
>materialism is limited because it doesn't decribe everything because it doesn't describe some vague spiritual realm which I posit but not define
>>28796740
I read somewhere a long time ago that roots are some kind of neurons and that trees keep the stumps of felled trees alive by diverting nutrients to them.
Consciousness expert here.
Plants have the same first-dimensional consciousness level as crystals, cave structures (ie stalagmites, stalactites), bacteria, virus, and nanotechnology. Because emotions and ideas are higher dimensional concepts, lower dimensional organisms can still experience love, sadness, pain, feat, etcetera.
They can't experience sensory stimulation beyond touch, warmth, and mating in sexually dimorphic species. Second dimensional organisms like insects, fish, animals, quadrupedals, and afro-americans experience sound, sight, smell, taste, and occasionally metaphysical intervention, when organisms of third dimensional consciousness or higher interrupt nature.
Our definition of 'life' is how an organism responds to stimuli, but the Earth and the universe, like the ecosystems they include, work like conscious organisms to acquire certain assets. Cut an aloe plant to heal a burn, and the cut appendage will secrete a sap-like blood to heal the wound over time. It will form over the open wound, and eventually grow back, but not without time and 'conscious' effort. This is because plants are programmed to behave certain ways, like tropism and bearing fruit.
Believe me, animals feel bad you eat their periods, suckle their udders, and strip them for meat. Humans are supposed to drink HUMAN milk. Cow milk is one of the reasons for the autism epidemic, as well as carcinogenic supplementation, metal toxicity, and ass burgers.
Humans can access fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh dimensional consciousness over time and with 'conscious' effort. It requires concentration, meditation, and personal purification. Most humans don't rise above the third dimension, however, because most are satisfied with the materialistic world, and seek nothing from the spiritual world.
If you have any more third-dimensional questions, feel free to ask a higher level of consciousness.
>>28800832
What did the word 'dimension' do to spiritual people for them to abuse it so? I was fucking awful at school math and the phrase 'higher dimension' still rubs me the wrong way disproportionately.
>>28799471
they did feel pain at one point as there is evidence that plants have vestigial nerve endings
>>28796740
They dont have a brain, let alone a complex enough brain to process emotion. "Consciousness" is subjective, however they function on more of a system of stimulus>reaction.
>>28801160
Our traditional concepts of dimension from point to direction to surface to density doesn't work in practice because matter and mass is constructed from waves at the sub-atomic level. 'Particles' were invented to describe phenomena we couldn't see or understand at the time, but now we know to act as waves based on their interactions with other waves. The reason you were awful at math in school is because public education is meant to captivate a diseased human mind in the 21st century, NOT inform the entire species of our entire knowledge. To be completely honest, most scientific inquiry is kept hidden so it can be utilized by the few for immense profit. If we taught the summit of our knowledge in schools, it would startle the public on how little we truly know, and the elite would lose control of their most valuable resource. If we taught that matter was waves, but we have no idea why these waves are kept together and don't simply fly off into space, most people would panic, and society could implode in on itself.
Dimensions essentially describe the number of expansions in a genesis pattern, or flower of life structure. In our literature and resources, most drawings stop at 19 circles, or 3 expansions because this is the extent of our material world. The pattern can continue forever, though.
There are 15 dimensions, or 12 major dimensions with 144 minor dimensions, repeating in the last and continuing forever. Since our material existence is defined by vibrating frequencies, NOT balls of space and 'matter', we can transcend dimensions by learning to tune our vibrational frequencies to specific areas. Ours is a 7.23cm wavelength, or 4700 hz. You can hear static on old radio sets if you tune it close to 7.23, like 7.35, which was used in early development.
Can computer programs be conscious
I believe they can, with the right inputs
>>28801720
They already are. When you program a pathfinding algorithm to avoid a certain node, it feels pain when that negative weight is referenced.
>>28800832
>>28801591
You should write a book. Totally, 100% honest here.
>>28800832
>and afro-americans
Kek
>>28800832
>>28801591
i'd join your cult desu
>>28796740
Plants are most definitely concious drink 500ml of ayahuasca and find out for yourself!
>>28802191
There are already a lot of people who believe this stuff mate you just need to enlighten yourself
