Let's not talk about cunt holes for once, and focus on something more interesting.
There is one question I really want to see solved. That question is the question of consciousness. What the fuck is consciousness and how does it arise? Why does it exist at all?
>>28566376
It's just super advanced forms of the same rudimentary way life senses its environment.
>>28566376
Because it do
First, how do you feel about consciousness?
>>28566376
If the brain worked in simpler ways we'd not have the capacity to understand it. Move on, nigga.
>>28566376
Women prob don't even have it lmao tfw no gf
>>28566593
It's a well-known observational fact that women operate on a lower level of consciousness. This is why they are often anti-intellectual and incapable of understanding logic. Basically their mind is on the level of an animal. Even some gorillas are smarter and more mature than women.
>>28566376
there are 2 neurons. If electricity goes from one to the other is consciousness created? What if there were 5 neurons? Still no? Then why would any number of neurons create consciousness? Unless consciousness is always present in all matter
>>28566681
this is the philosophy equivalent of Answers in Genesis. Kill yourself.
>>28566681
There are two atoms of iron in your room. Can you see them? No. What if there were five atoms? Still no? Then certainly a huge iron block made up of billions of atoms must also be invisible.
Consciousness is easy to explain, it's just a system
It's the result of all your senses together in your brain
Existence is the real question, how do you explain that shit?
>>28566824
why do people have subjective experiences?
why aren't we just autonomous unconscious machines that behave, but have no feelings or awareness?
>>28566824
You didn't explain shit though.
>>28566890
>>28566681
>>28566376
here you go OP
consciousness
noun
1.
the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings.
"she failed to regain consciousness and died two days later"
synonyms: awareness, wakefulness, alertness, responsiveness, sentience
"she failed to regain consciousness"
2.
a person's awareness or perception of something.
"her acute consciousness of Luke's presence"
synonyms: awareness of, knowledge of the existence of, alertness to, sensitivity to, realization of, cognizance of, mindfulness of, perception of, apprehension of, recognition of
"her acute consciousness of Luke's presence"
>>28568201
state
noun
1.
the particular condition that someone or something is in at a specific time.
"the state of the company's finances"
synonyms: condition, shape, situation, circumstances, state of affairs, position
are you all catching on yet?
>>28566376
I know what consciousness is. It's something that has caused pain and suffering for billions and billions of years! And now, now it's my turn to feel the pain of living. I just want my consciousness to be over.
It stems from the combination of various nuclei with different structures and functions. How it works exactly is not very well understood though... i.e. what brain structures plays what role. For example, some brain structures may be involved in consciousness without being involved int he experience of it, and vice versa.
>>28566741
okay, then tell us about how the problem of consciousness has been solved in the high-level philosophy you have read
>>28568369
if i meditate will i be able to achieve consciousness and understanding of all inherit things, albeit, slowly and steadily (like the tortoise and the hare)?
>>28568408
its not a problem so there cant be a solution.
if you ask the question "how does consciousness work" then the answer is "nobody knows"
not to say they will or will not figure it out.
also not that guy he is clearly from /pol/
>>28568457
it is a problem and there is no solution yet
>>28568413
Yea just gotta concentrate really hard, like when you're taking a dump
>>28568475
why is it a problem?
>>28568491
because it's something we don't understand. "the problem of consciousness" is another way of saying we don't understand it
saying it's not a problem is just playing with semantics
>>28568489
will marijuannas help? can the drugs help basically is what im asking ty.
>>28568506
i didnt realise consciousness was a physics or mathematical problem.
Consciousness is a consequence of intelligence. Intelligence is the result of evolution. Evolution is a consequence of self-replication.
>>28568547
and self-replication leads to the dark side right?
>>28568510
Marijuana will help you have a dump.
No mate you cannot achieve some ultimate consciousness and understanding. That's not to say meditation can't have benefits.
>>28566376
You're asking about the Hard Problem of Consciousness, and it's never been even close to solved in all of history.
"Why" experience exists is a question that we may never know the answer to.
>>28568547
INCORRECT.
Consciousness exists in non-living things.
Consciousness in living things is an integrated system of consciousness. Each atom is conscious, as is each molecule, each cell, etc. Together, they come together to create a highly conscious living system.
You'll probably disagree with me, but answer me this: If awareness doesn't exist in nonliving things, then HOW does it come to exist in living things?
>muh brain
Okay, but EXACTLY WHERE is the line between a brain that is too simple to be conscious and a brain that is conscious? How many cells doe it need to have before it just *POP* becomes aware of the world?
Of course it's a ridiculous question -- the more complex it is, the more aware it is, and the less complex, the less aware.
even a single atom is aware.
>>28568675
this is just a theory
>>28568675
you're closer to the truth, but an "atom" isn't aware... more likely I would guess there is a general property of the universe of awareness (capacity for subjective experience) just like space or gravity, and the brain (or any other complex enough information processing system) generates/is information that this capacity for experience can read to experience. So the space a rock is in would be conscious (has capacity to experience) but there's just nothing interesting that it is experiencing at the moment because not much information processing is going on in the rock's space as compared to a brain or computer.
>>28568812
It's the only thing taht makes logical sense, though.
Please prove me wrong if possible:
>consciousness exists
>it is embedded in living things
>we can tell because they act in ways we understand
>living things are made of nonliving things
>if nonliving things did not have proto-consciousness, then consciousness would have to come from outside of the universe, i.e. a soul from heaven
>occam's razor, there are no souls
>therefore consciousness is in all mater and subatomic particles
>>28568825
yes, this is not in conflict with my statement. An atom is aware in an extremely simple way -- it merely knows where other atoms are and it bumps them -- that physical barrier is an act of proto-consciousness
>>28568855
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
>>28568675
>>28568855
No. Non-living matter is not conscious. This is like saying that a singular brick needs to already be a house in order to be able to build a house. A house is only made possible because of the bricks its made out of. Consciousness is the same way.
>>28568889
>misunderstanding emergence this badly
emergence doesn't mean that consciousness just kapow comes from nothing, it means that higher-order organisms possess structures that cannot be explained in terms of their lower-order constituents.
Emergence means that you can't explain emotions in terms of how your organs work and you can't explain math in terms of how your cells work. It does not mean "POOF AWARENESS FROM NOTHING WHEN A BRAIN"
>>28566681
there are 2 microchips. If electricity goes from one to the other is a computer created? What if there were 5 microchips? Still no? Then why would any number of microchips create a computer? Unless a computer is always present in all matter
this is how retarded you sound.
>>28568896
>This is like saying that a singular brick needs to already be a house in order to be able to build a house.
No. Exactly backwards.
It's like saying that a brick must be solid in order to build a solic house. A house is solid, so its parts must be solid. A human is conscious, so its parts must be conscious.
Shit, gorilla posting is leaking from /sci/
>>28568931
you misunderstand it which is why you purport something that is one possibility as undeniable truth
"atoms are aware" is not an accepted fact in materialist philosophy
>>28569038
materialist philosophy is extremely shortsighted. it does not account for qualia.
literally everything you experience is through perception. Objectivity (materialism's foundation) is nothing but repetitively confimed subjectivity. Qualia are fundamental to objectivity and materialism argues that they don't exist / aren't important.
Materialist philosophy is a house without a first floor.
>>28569099
this entire time you've been arguing from a materialist perspective
now you may as well call consciousness the soul and say it only exists in humans and call it a day
>>28569137
>this entire time you've been arguing from a materialist perspective
literally the opposite of reality learn to reading comprehension
>>28569179
maybe you should take a few more philosophy classes and make sure you don't confuse your terms
>>28568957
My analogy was kind of shit. Here's a better one:
By that logic, a line of code is a program within itself, as a program is made of and functions according to individual lines of code. That's not the case though, as a single line of code cannot do anything on its own.
>>28569195
>nothing personnel, kid
*teleports behind u and makes ad hominem argument*
>>28566376
ITT: religious faggots crying 'no we don't TRULY understand the nature of consciousness yet according to my imaginary, undefined standards of "proper" understanding' because they need an anti-scientific backdrop for their garbage about 'consciousness permeating reality'
>>28569226
that's also not analogous to the situation because a line of code absolutely CAN do something by itself. It merely does MORE when in the context of integration with other lines of code.
A simple GOTO10 code just goes back to line 10, but in a big long program that does something complex, it can restart a complex process, giving it more meaning.
consciousness DOES work like that. Little bits of "code" can DO something, but not much. When the "code" get more complex, then what it does becomes more complex too.
>>28569285
ITT: anti-intellectual faggots pretending that they have thought about where their minds come from for more than 15 seconds
stop capitalizing every third word like a fucking redditor who reads too many webcomics
>>28569318
No. "GOTO 10" will not compile.
>>28569340
DUDE WHY EXISTENCE EXISTS LMAO
Cut your LSD microdosing please.
Well, are you concious? Are you here typing this question? Are you aware? Okay, that is conciousness.
>>28569362
fucking autist
it doesn't matter how computer code works. we're never going to have an exact perfect analogy.
small bits of code do something simple, large code does more complex things. Photoshop alters images, but a small piece of photoshop is ONLY about how the blur using a brush. That piece of it is a part of the larger whole. that's how consciousness works.
>>28569367
you were that kid who dealt with your jealousy towards the smart kids in school by calling them nerds.
it's ok, not all of us can have brains. There's always video games for you!
>>28569397
do you understand everything about human anatomy by being human?
>trying to be a smartass
Consciousness arises when you look at a cunt hole.
Consciousness exists to be shoved into a cunt hole. Silly question.
>>28569410
Consciousness only exists under specific circumstances and can only exist under those specific circumstances, like a computer program. It will only work when the entire set of parameters is met.
>>28569244
you argument was one possible materialist explanation of consciousness. you literally gave a materialist-consistent explanation for qualia and then turned around and said you didn't
and I'm apparently committing ad-hominem by pointing out you're uninformed or confused for doing that
>>28569514
that's indefensible.
You do realize taht you're claiming to have solved the hard problem of cosnciousness, right? If you can demonstrate the conditions under which consciousness comes into existence, you would win a nobel prize.
>>28569433
A nerd would have the modicum of self-awareness necessary for realizing the elementary fallacy of thinking that every question a brain comes up with is meaningful. Not every 'why tho' has an answer. A question must be well-formed. 'Why does consciousness exist' has no defined manner of resolution and translates to 'me confused by consciousnes halp', except with a question mark at the end.
'Consciousness' doesn't exist, by the way. I don't think or feel anything. Thoughts and feelings are not real. Only the brain (i.e., dead matter, dead flesh) exists. Whenever I have the impression that I 'think' something, for instance, about the distance between two buildings, it's just the mushy matter inside my skull gets modified in a way that corresponds to eventual execution of movements corresponding to that distance. Namely, certain areas are provoked, which happen to in my species correspond to i.e. certain ocular orientation and accelerated gait.
>>28569573
no he's not. he's asserting that consciousness has some certain property. he's not providing anything even close to a full explanation
>>28569585
brains don't exist because actually what we mean when we say brain is a mush of a matter that's sending electrical signals back and forth
>>28569600
>he's not providing anything even close to a full explanation
You (and no one else ITT expecting it) have no standards of 'full explanation', and you are never going to define any. Because your religious agenda disallows you yo.
>>28569540
My entire argument was based on demonstrating that you CANNOT reduce consciousness to matter, which is demonstrated by the fact that complexity in one mirrors complexity in the other.
The materialist viewpooint is that qualia or consciousness ARISE from matter. I am demonstrating that they simply co-exist. The conclusion you'd have reached from that if you knew how to read is that consciousness cannot be explained in terms of the material world any more than the other way around.
the materialist viewpoint is a heirarchy: nothing -- matter -- evolution -- consciousness
my argument is more of a yin-yang. Matter is consciousness. consciousness is matter. The two are indivisible and one does not rest on top of the existence of the other.
LEARN TO READ PLEASE I DO NOT TEACH PRE-K
>>28569639
>yo
*to
>>28569573
Look at every single living with a brain. You will see clear patterns in how they function. These are obviously all parameters in which consciousness is feasible; whereas you will not find consciousness where these parameters are not met.
>>28569677
>muh brain
read the thread, we went over this.
>>28569702
'Matter is not everything because it isn't because I say so'?
>>28569717
because it cannot be proven with experimentation or pure logic.
All we know is that matter exists and consciousness exists. We have exactly 0 information on the relationship between them other than how consciousness manifests in organisms. Using deductive logic, we an suggest that consciousness is woven into the universe at the most fundamental level, but we can't prove that either.
>>28569661
oh wow it's literally semantics and incoherent ranting
the materialist viewpoint is that consciousness is a property somehow achieved by matter. whether that means it arises from an interaction of matter or is a property is all matter is irrelevant to it being materialist.
>consciousness exists
>it is embedded in living things
>we can tell because they act in ways we understand
>living things are made of nonliving things
>if nonliving things did not have proto-consciousness, then consciousness would have to come from outside of the universe, i.e. a soul from heaven
>occam's razor, there are no souls
>therefore consciousness is in all mater and subatomic particles
this was your argument
show that to your professor and ask if they think it's a position consistent with materialism, then kindly return to reddit
>>28569702
And I already explained to you why your premise of "particle consciousness" is total bunk.
>>28569777
Bullshit. There is no such thing as consciousness and a knocked-out body is in strictly no way different from one that hasn't been. Its range of motoric reactivity has been slightly reduced, but any idea of soul or spirit of essence which your yearnings for consciousness' existence really are is just insubstantial and superfluous.
>>28566674
nice b8
8/10
thought it was real for a second
>>28569782
I was literally taught by my professor 6 years ago that this view is a nonmaterialistic view. Materialism places matter prior to consciousness and treats consciousness as emergent from matter. My view is that neither are emergent from the other but are sides of a coin.
I don't know how many times i have to point that out to you. Materialism is characterized by the assertion that everything emerges from the material world. my argument is literally the opposite of that.
textbook example of the fallacy of division
>>28569787
"explained" and "insisted" aren't the same thing
>atom interacts with its surroundings
>atom is conscious
>>28569833
he was wrong or you remember incorrectly. materialism simply does not introduce anything other than matter and its interactions to explain existence. saying that consciousness exists in animals (true) and that there are different levels of consciousness (true) and then reducing that all the way to the atomic level is not inherently non-materialist. in either case, you're restricting consciousness to the material world. it's just batshit version of doing it
>>28569860
No, I actually did explain it. Consciousness is the result of specific parameters. Just like how a computer program operates on lines of code which do not produce a program on their own. Consciousness is only the sum of its parts.
>>28569822
In other words, saying that consciousness exists is like saying that life exists. It doesn't; we're all dead.
>>28569822
There's a lot of shit I could say about that but there's good reason they need you heavily sedated for medical procedures.
Anyways, the biggest problem of consciousness is that we can't measure most of it.
Alot of this thread is just bluster. Same with most intelligent theories on it. Its just beyond science right now given our current understanding of the brain, chemistry, physics, and biology.
>>28569909
Actually, he's correct. He's talking about panpsychism, which isn't materialism so much as it is an option of how to explain the current problems with materialism without adding too much religious bullshit on top of it.
Panpsychism is also pants-on-head retarded and not a respected position, though.
And I don't know why you two care about whether it's materialist or not. It's ironic you keep accusing him of playing with semantics when that's exactly what you're doing by arguing over whether you can apply a certain label to a concept both already understand.
>What the fuck is consciousness
existence
>how does it arise?
from existence
>Why does it exist at all?
because existence exists
Everything is simply One being (universe) dreaming, experiencing and expressing itself as all things, to get lost in itself. Just like in your dreams you yourself (one being) are expressing and experiencing yourself as all the things that are dreamed and getting lost in yourself.
All that exists is the universe, just like all that is dreamed is the mind.
The mind is like the universe, and the universe is like the mind. They both work in the same exact way.
The mind creates illusions of what is real, just like the universe creates illusions of what is real.
In the end you wake up to yourself and realizes it was all a dream and nothing of it was real, even if it seemed so.
>>28570094
By all means continue to concoct artificial, arbitrary non-problems such as the purported 'mystery' of consciousness that's 'beyond science'. The fact that God doesn't exist never stops people to posit him, so to then assert that science is 'baffled' by his purported existence. Same with consciousness. You just want something, some kind of imaginary entity, using which to assert science's 'limitations'. Some people will buy it.
>>28570183
Stick to your 'mindfulness' 'meditation' self-help books, please.
>>28569860
>insists another time
>"see? I explained it!"
>>28570250
The universe creates us, and we create the universe. We are both two sides of the same coin. Neither can exists without the other.
>>28570340
This makes as much sense as saying that a liver, a branch, or a tablecloth create the universe. Far less exciting for sure.
>>28566376
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness/
For your edification.
>>28570364
The liver, branch and tablecloth comes from the universe. Just like a drop of water comes from the ocean. They might seem like different things from one another, but in reality are the same thing.
>>28570450
I would quite wonder what exactly is it that makes the term 'same' in particular the victim of religious redefinition. 'Let's arbitrarily redifine the term "the same" so that everything is "the same" by virtue of belonging to the same universe.' Why this adjective of all others? Why not redefine 'bright'? Or 'powerful'? Or 'happy'? Whence this peculiar Buddhist obsession with 'all is one'? One of psychiatry's many small mysteries, I suppose.
>>28570521
>>28570450
...I just remembered, it's most likely just emotionality, grasping at redefinitions which can result in 'group hug :) ' connotations in recipients of 'we're all close together'.
>>28570521
>>28570568
I mean, what the guy is saying isn't technically wrong, really. It's just stupid as fuck and is a complete non-sequitur. This is why I don't like hippies.
>The only thing that exists is matter XDDD
>How am I reading this? Surely light isn't bouncing off a screen, traveling though space and following fixed laws of physics that surely don't exist, setting off a cascade of chemical and electrical reactions in my brain to process information that is then EXPERIENCED by myself, an entity with the capacity to experience that is 100% explainable only in terms of matter and in fact I can demonstrably and quantifiably show you a brain with complexity N that is able to subjectively experience and a brain with complexity N -1 that is not because it wasn't complex enough for consciousness to "emerge" out of (my scientific word sound that is key for a miracle occurs).
hard mode: respond without accusing me of being religious or believing in a soul, I don't
>>28571111
Materialists don't claim that everything is just matter. That's fucking stupid. The materialist position is that everything is made of matter and how different pieces of matter interact with each other.
>>28571170
>Materialists's don't claim that everything is just matter
>The materialist position is that everything is made of matter
U wot
So experiences, ideas, laws of physics, emotions, concepts, energy, etc. are made of matter?
>>28571170
Actually, hard materialists do claim that
>>28571243
>>28571252
>and how pieces of matter interact with each other
>>28571243
You skipped the part beginning with '...and how...'.
>>28566376
Consciousness is effectively parts of your brain working together to create a single picture. Your consciousness is all what you are sensing and thinking. In your brain that is basically electrical and chemical reactions.
In reality the purpose of your brain is to be able to alter output (movement, breathing etc) from more complex input than would be possible without one to increase survival chances and reproductive success. A brain can also learn and remember more complicated things than 'cellular memory' (cells changing attributes due to environmental or chemical queues) which is useful. More advanced animals with bigger brains can access this information and alter it to suit circumstances. In humans, this ability to learn/store/alter memory was very important due to the high level of interaction between people and hunting and different environments. Over time this made humans derive more pleasure from learning things more than other animals (which leads to doing it more) due to reproductive and environmental pressures. Human consciousness is really not that different to other animals.
tl;dr consciousness is your brain working together, reading your spinal cord input to make decisions and to store information for future events.
>>28566376
This is a question I understand very well.
>>28566681
when it starts to control itself with a negative feedback control system.
2 neurons is not conscious because it does not trigger itself. 2 neurons just fire and then stop.
If it had a feedback control loop, that's when you start to see consciousness. If it happens to mutate it's own structure based on this feedback, even better.
>>28571296
>>28571309
>not understanding logical "and" means both propositions must be true for the statement to be true
if you meant to say OR, then how are subjective experiences or space composed of the interactions of pieces of matter? Are interactions a concept (if so is it composed of the interactions of matter, infinite regression) or are they a special category of matter? What are the dimensions and mass and properties of this new "interaction" class of matter that can be used to build subjective experiences?
>>28571385
themostats have a feedback control loop (when they sense temperature is different from the programmed temperature they turn on or off heat and air conditioning) are they conscious (as in, do they have the ability to subjectively experience experiences)?
>>28571527
>>28571385
HOL-Y shit.
does that mean my IF ELSE loops is 'artificial consciousness'????
neat.
>>28571475
>not understanding logical "and" means both propositions must be true for the statement to be true
Matter exists and pieces of matter interact with each other, thus composing reality. I don't really know what you're getting at.
>>28571527
Sure, but they don't have memory and they are the literal bare minimum
This is like calling something that triggers on every other clock signal a computer
>>28571584
no
that would be like 2 neurons
it test the condition, does the thing, then ends
>>28571720
but its a loop?
>>28571650
Does matter exist? Yes
Does matter interact with each other? Yes
Is matter the only thing that exists? No
I gave a couple counter examples of things that exist that are not matter (don't have mass) and are not comprised of the interaction between matter (what does that even mean?) Are there like lego building blocks when matter A and matter B are near each other it creates a new matter C called "interaction of matter" completely negating the law of conservation of matter, and then matter C can be used to build and construct empty space or laws of physics?
>>28571839
yeah so technically it's conscious but it's just the bare minimum
>>28571856
thats good enough for me. vibrating silicone fuckbot waifu here i come
The essence of consciousness is Brahman
>>28571847
Not quite. In the case of Lego,bricks A and B would be separate entities, however when connected C is formed, meaning that C isn't an object in and of itself, but is instead the result of the interactions between A and B.
>>28571953
Ok, can you explain how any amount or type of interaction between matter can result in the creation or emergence of some capacity to subjectively experience?
>>28570183
I bet you can hear colours too huh
>>28572077
Carbon, hydrogen, water and whatever the fuck else combines to form a brain.
>>28572147
not an answer
>"Anon, how do you write a program that calculates square roots?"
>"Uh, Silicon, carbon, electricity, and whatever the fuck else combines to make a computer"
>>28572206
But that is what a computer is made out of, and behaves in accordance to what its made out of. Just like a brain.
Why am I who I am? Of the billions of people how did my awareness come about in this body?
>>28572248
It's still not an answer. Even if we knew exactly how a brain works in terms of how the matter moves around in it, that still doesn't explain consciousness or how physical activity just by itself, no matter how complex, could create a non physical phenomena with fundamentally different properties than matter
daily reminder we're only here because of fluctuations https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4C9bn7ZqS4
>>28566376
Consciousness is the soul that departs from the body upon death.
>>28572319
you act like this is a big mystery
> what is digital logic
> what is a computer
>>28572319
>Even if we knew exactly how a brain works in terms of how the matter moves around in it, that still doesn't explain consciousness or how physical activity just by itself, no matter how complex, could create a non physical phenomena with fundamentally different properties than matter
Why not?
>>28572249
because chance.
your consciousness and awareness of reality emerged and was shaped via a combination of the random genetic hand that life dealt you, your environment, and the experiences you had within your environment(s).
>>28566376
A13, in Toy Story series and other such movies could explain everything to you.
So could Avatar.
Catch me if you can.
Whatever floats your boat, Captain'.
>>28572356
It's because it FUCKING IS a big mystery...
>>28572368
Completely knowing how the brain (complex piece of matter) works on a material level would allow us to predict the activity and behavior of it, but it doesn't explain how a non material phenomena (consciousness, capacity for subjective experience) is created by material phenomena. The state of the brain can correspond with subjective experiences (like if XYZ areas are active in a certain way, experience BCD is likelier) but it tells us nothing about how the CAPACITY for experience itself exists.
It's like, even if we knew all the movement of every single piece of matter in the universe perfectly, it still wouldn't explain WHY the laws of physics exist or prove that the laws of physics exist due to the movement of matter as opposed to the movement of matter being such that it exists the way it does due to pre existing laws of physics
>>28572332
Or is the soul simply how you thought and what you were like? Chances are that if enough people are born, the way they live their life is exactly how you would have if you were in their situation. Is this reincarnation?
>>28572589
>predict
>>28572557
Two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl...
Year after Year.
>>28572557
>Completely knowing how the brain (complex piece of matter) works on a material level would allow us to predict the activity and behavior of it
But we can, granted, to a limited degree, it's still fully possible.
Also, the laws of physics don't exist for any particular reason (hot that they need to), and the laws of physics are just a consequence of how matter operates.
>>28568309
>I know what consciousness is. It's something that has caused pain and suffering for billions and billions of years! And now, now it's my turn to feel the pain of living.
holy shit
>>28572557
No it's not though
just try to make a flowchart of what how you think a brain operates as an exercise and you will organize your thoughts
