Good morning robots.
I know many of you are apathetic about politics, and are often lured into primitive ideologies, but I think the good life is partly found in becoming a political citizen.
http://m.truthdig.com/report/item/the_wages_of_sin_20160410
Some sobering visions from Hedges, who saw the painting on the wall well before our war in the Middle East of what would end up happening.
He knows what's coming, but if we can become enaged, we can create a different reality, one with Universal basic income and sustainable systems instead of a nightmare. It depends on us.
Come on robots, iz important topic. Stop wallowing in virginity and autism for a bit and focus on something that will doom us all.
are you a georgist? if you believe in a UBI and are big on sustainability you are almost there
>>27861447
Not versed in it. Automation and sustainable systems will make a land tax irrelevant as well. Maybe you're almost there?
Resource based economy would be a decent goal. But eventually you can have post scarcity.
>>27861595
no you can't, and if you could none of our actions would matter by definition of post scarcity.
If any of our choices are important it's not post-scarcity
Why should I care about politics
I already stress about enough things, I don't need to stress about something I literally have no control over
>>27861640
But they do, that's literally human history, people deciding to do things and changing things.
>>27861614
Sure you can, renewable systems would enable that. Of course it doesn't mean that everyone has 12 cars, but that we don't have to worry about reasonable desires being easily met.
I see no reason for a person to become a political citizen.
This is not to say, that a person should be unaware of politics, as it is indicative of where certain powers lay,
but citizenship is simply submitting oneself to coercion.
While Hedges would like to compare the loss of civic virtue, to the shadows in the allegory of the Cave, political society is just as illusory.
Different spectators claiming their own interpretation of what Plato would call a true form.
While I would not consider such things to be either good, nor bad, my true best interest is not, and cannot, be held by others.
As such, it seems unreasonable, for me, or any other, for that matter, to make claims as to what characterizes a better life, when it must be lived in subservience.
>>27862546
This is a strawman. And a typical relativistic millenial perspective.
People in fact CAN have your bet interests in mind, teachers, therapists, etc, and the inidivudal CAN be ignorant ofbtheir own interests, or even be unable to rationally ascertain how to be happy.
But this is all besides the point, the fact of the matter is that climate change is a fact and about to make us all suffer a great deal. We need to work together, as a society to address it, or even apathetic relativists like you will suffer.
>>27860743
This article is just a bunch of white-bashing, apocalyptic craziness and it offers no clear solution to anything.
>>27862763
1. False
2. An essay doesn't need to offer a solution to raise a valid point
3. We know what the solutions are, we simply need buy-in and action
>>27862839
Buy-in?
>>27862962
Getting people bought into the idea, to support it, fight for it, etc.
>>27860743
>Universal basic income
You genuinely made me laugh. Universal income will NEVER be a thing. No matter how automated things get, it will NEVER happen. What will happen is that things will become so incredibly cheap (like food has been) that you will only need to work a couple hours per week in order to survive.
>shilling for some gay ideologies
Go fuck yourself.
>>27863030
Maybe, maybe not, I'm open to both possiblities.
>>27863069
Nice try kiddo, my Jimmies remain unrustled.
>>27863011
What idea exactly? Universal basic income? I skimmed the article and I don't
see it mentioned anywhere.
>>27863098
Maybe, maybe not.
Incorrect, it won't happen, because IF that were to happen, then excessive breeding of the lazy and stupid would cause the system to fail.
But when robots can build a house that meets all codes in an afternoon, rent costs will plummet. When food doesn't need ANY human input, then you are just paying for maintenance of the robots, and the electricity/fuel needed for the robots to perform and the product to be transported.
Besides, it's irrelevant talking about. It's not going to arrive thanks to the weakening of the west, and the invasion of Islam. Similar things have happened hundreds of times throughout history. As soon as women become enfranchised, society becomes weak and quickly become overtaken by other societies.
>>27860743
I remember you from my epistemology question. You're the same dude, right?
>>27863151
>invasion of Islam
>weakening of West
Wew lad read a book.
As for basic income, it has worked before in isolation, it can happen globally. Or maybe it'll be closer to what you say with lower prices. Thing is, at that point we won't need to work, so we won't need money for the products, so you even go beyond needing a monetary system. Until post scarcity everyone will just get a fixed amount of credits, more than enough to enjoy life but also to provide insane overconsumption.
As far as bring lazy goes, that's possible, which is why Fromm said all major systems need to change as well. So we need an education system that can prepare people for a world in which leisure or only 2 hours of work is needed so they can become free and capable creators and humans.
>>27863143
It's not in the article.
>>27863151
Shut up.
We need to create things of value. Value is often created by solving problems, and lucky for us we have a lot of those.
>>27863204
I don't think so, but maybe, what was the question?
>>27863208
*prevent insane overconsumption
>>27863212
Sure, that, but value isn't in just solving problems. Art, music, literature, video games, don't solve problems in your sense and yet are insanely valuable.
We have solutions, we just need to implement.
Also you shut up.
>>27863221
Justified True Belief and Gettier theory (can you know something if there is an error in one of your premises).
>>27863030
>welfare is a thing
>universal basic income can't be
???
>>27863208
>Wew lad read a book.
Incorrect. That's ok, though, I expected you to deny it. I just thought you were political and well-read. If Islam is halted, it would be the first time in recorded history that an incompatible culture was halted after women's enfranchisement.
As for the rest of your post, capitalism will not be dropped, and you will still need to work. You just won't need to work much. Of course, if you spend time performing hobbies, you can always sell those and have it count as work.
Why do people want to make Thomas More's Utopia a reality?
A highly uniform society would be severely stunted in a personal sense. What would be the solution for dissenters?
>>27863280
Welfare IS a thing. It's a thing that is destroying the West. If we don't end it, it will be ended for us by our conquerors, which we are inviting in by the hundreds of thousands per country per year (who are overwhelmingly illiterate, and, thus, are required to rely on welfare).
>>27863252
Oh that's right :) what's up?
>>27863245
Art does not have the same impact on a nation as mass manufactured transportation. You can't just throw everything in a bucket labelled "valuable."
I just need to figure out who we're hurting if we repeal NAFTA. Also think tanks should be pushing scientifically inclined people toward developing green manufacturing, but they won't because they gargle dicks for a living.
>>27863326
Islam isn't a legitimate threat to anyone in America. Cars on the other hand..... mass murder each year.
You have a better chance of being gunned down by a cop, or even a fucking toddler (seriously ) than a Muslim terrorist.
Read a book.
>>27863334
No where in this thread was that even remotely implied.
>>27863405
Sure, except I didn't do what you imply. How we define value is important, I merely showed how your definition is too limited.
>>27863406
You said America. I said "the West."
America is typically a decade or two behind the "progressives" in Europe. Fun fact: ISIS has a 27% approval rating amongst 18-24 year olds in France AFTER their recent terrorist attacks. Total population's approval of ISIS is over 16%.
Keep telling yourself there's not a problem, and keep telling yourself that there isn't a political party in the US that isn't following suit.
>>27863406
>So we need an education system that can prepare people for a world in which leisure or only 2 hours of work is needed so they can become free and capable creators and humans.
This is literally right out of Utopia.
>>27863367
Not much my friend. I enjoy these Happy Person threads
>>27863430
Oh.
>>27863455
You don't seriously expect me to accept such crazy numbers without a source? But yeah, something needs to be done about ISIS. American leadership has been strangely quiet about this legitimate terrorist threat. Fucking hypocritical, self-serving assholes.
Anyway, the only solution I can think of in regards to ISIS is redefining social paradigms before assembling a five year plan. How about you?
>>27863578
>>27863578
>You don't seriously expect me to accept such crazy numbers without a source?
https://www.rt.com/news/181076-isis-islam-militans-france/
But just in case you don't like RT:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=percent+french+support+isis&t=lm
Saw newsweek, vox, and CBS News in that search. But RT has a nifty graph.
>>27863455
Even in Europe ISIS poses no serious threat to the average citizen. Just look at stats on WHY people die in Europe. Cars, cancer, suicide, heart disease will all DESTROY ISIS.
>>27863493
Point taken, I merely meant the regimented and controlled comment. I do not imply a highly controlled or regimented society.
>>27863569
Hehe thanks.
>>27863768
That's real neat, but you're moving goalposts. People are becoming more and more accepting of their ideology.
Add this to the fact that there aren't many Muslims that are opposed to this, the idea that you can import hundreds of thousands of them with no background check every year is essentially bringing terrorism into your country.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/244266/80-london-muslims-support-isis-daniel-greenfield
The myth of the tiny violent Muslim minority is just that. Most of them are perfectly fine with hanging gays and giving clitoridectomies to women, and will even support them financially and with their votes.
And, once again, in every recorded example of women enfranchisement, the outcome is that another culture comes in and dominates the old, usually with the women's open arms.
Earlier I was told to read one. I suggest you do. Sex and Culture, by J.D. Unwin, who spent his life researching exactly what I'm claiming.
>>27863950
And Christians are more and more accepting of Trump and Cruz and the insane Christian right, yet ISIS is the real threat?
I'd rather talk about what has caused ISIS, and what we can actually do about such things, instead of beating our chests about war and death. Protip: ISIS o
is largely caused by American military intervention.
What we should be wondering is how to help suffering refugees, how to reduce violence, how to actually create an open society that doesn't target the millions of peaceful Muslims. ISIS FEEDS on these divisions and our vioence only swells their ranks.
Fanaticism and extremism are REACTIONS to injustice. They will never go away until we ourselves become ethical people, and operate our society on the principles of justice and kindness rather than exploitation.
>>27864073
>And Christians are more and more accepting of Trump and Cruz and the insane Christian right.
I would like to see your proof.
>'d rather talk about what has caused ISIS, and what we can actually do about such things, instead of beating our chests about war and death.
What can we do? Nothing, because we need to vote in order to do it, and it will never pass.
>Protip: ISIS is largely caused by American military intervention.
No shit.
>What we should be wondering is how to help suffering refugees.
We shouldn't. Africa has shown that money and supplies never wind up where they need to, and relocating people who are illiterate in their native tongue and expecting them to function in a High IQ society will only have them living in societal cysts, off welfare. Our interference, no matter what we do, only makes things worse.
>ISIS FEEDS on these divisions and our vioence only swells their ranks.
ISIS feeds on a homogeneous community with the same religious beliefs, the sympathy of the West, and the nastiness of the West. Remove your attention, let the vacuum fill, and respond harshly to the population whenever aggression is given. Doing so to the Japanese is what caused the end of WW2.
>Fanaticism and extremism are REACTIONS to injustice.
You need to prove what you are putting forth. They were extreme by Western standards over one thousand years ago, before the Crusades, even, and their culture has evolved little since then.
>They will never go away until we ourselves become ethical people, and operate our society on the principles of justice and kindness rather than exploitation.
No. While exploitation leads to hostility, tolerance of abhorrent practices due to "cultural differences" that "we can't possibly understand," leads to one culture dominating the other. With welfare allowing societal cysts to form, and our schools remaining neutral to US/European culture, while tolerant and accepting to Islamic culture, which culture would you gamble will win?
>>27864229
Your mind is clouded by prejudice. Islamic society was once the center of learning, medicine, philisophy, math. And many middle eastern countries have very different cultures and political climates.
But this is all besides the point, ISIS isn't a threat to the west like cars are. The numbers prove this. Climate change though threaten the very basis of or society.
As far as the chritian right, look at the news, look at how well Trump does running on a racist, bigoted, anti immigrant, anti ISIS ticket. It's pure fear propaganda, and you're playing into that agenda.
>>27860743
>Not following the world news zealousy
I would actually say that politcs and economy are my biggest hobby
>>27864455
>Islamic society was once the center of learning, medicine, philisophy, math.
It hasn't been for over a thousand years.
>But this is all besides the point, ISIS isn't a threat to the west like cars are.
That's like stating that toxic waste being dumped into a city's water supply is nothing compared to cars. One drop will probably have no consequence. One hundred thousand gallons will have grave consequences. And, once again, welfare does not force anyone to assimilate.
>As far as the chritian right, look at the news, look at how well Trump does running on a racist, bigoted, anti immigrant, anti ISIS ticket.
The news that constantly bashes Trump? Also, once again, you need to PROVE that Trump is Racist (illegal immigrants aren't a race). You need to prove he is bigoted. You need to prove he's anti immigrant (when has he spoken of shutting down all immigration?).
And you are stating he's anti-ISIS, as though that's a BAD opinion to have? Should we be supporting pro-ISIS candidates?
>>27864229
>>27864455
Why aren't you guys asking me about my plan? I've got a plan! Pay attention to meeeee
I realize "redefining social paradigms" usually means jack shit, but I actually mean something when I say that. We usually think about governments when we think about Nations, but we should be thinking about the middle class. A healthy middle class is the key to democracy. Iraq and Syria's middle class is currently spread all over Europe. We need to offer refugees a viable alternative to ISIS. We need to help them prepare to rebuild their countries and establish a self-sustaining democratic government. Giving them a future they can believe in will help us win the war against ISIS.
>>27864580
He wants to deport millions of people. He mistreat black people at his rallies. He doesn't give a shit about peoppe of color. He's anti ISIS in the worst sense, as in he thinks he can single handedly solve the problem. He's bigoted towards Muslims because he wants to enforce fascist policy to kick them out and prevent them feom coming here.
Your toxic analogy fails. The threat you see just isn't there.
But I'm ending this line of inquiry, it's too far off topic from my original intention for the thread. The focus should be on building society up, tackling climate change, etc.
Instead youve got me engaging on worrying about ISIS, as if this is an important focus. I'm not going to play into that agenda anymore.
If you want to stay on topic let's do that.
Fuck off normie. The sooner the world ends the sooner I am to achieving happiness. Why should I care about politics?
>>27864654
>He wants to deport millions of people.
Who are here illegally. That's the LAW.
>He mistreat black people at his rallies.
Proof, please, because blacks are registering Republican in unprecedented numbers, because eliminating people working under the minimum wage, thus giving them a chance to work.
>He doesn't give a shit about peoppe of color
Because color is irrelevant, and that is the least racist position one can hold.
>He's anti ISIS in the worst sense, as in he thinks he can single handedly solve the problem.
He's literally one of the only candidates who wants to work with Putin, and has even stated that working together with the world needs to happen.
>He's bigoted towards Muslims because he wants to enforce fascist policy to kick them out and prevent them feom coming here.
He doesn't want terrorists coming in with low IQ refugees who are illiterate and can not contribute to the economy. He stated he would rather relocate all of them to another Muslim country.
>Your toxic analogy fails.
I don't see how.
>The threat you see just isn't there.
Tell that to France. Or Belgium. Or the 110 other terrorist attacks that took place last year in the EU.
You're focused on Climate change, when actual research is never actually shown to the public, only the conclusion (which oddly tries to push more power to government). Want to stop Climate Change? Install 4th gen nuclear reactors, and use electric cars. You'll buy yourself decades.
You are focused on bullshit problems that have easy solutions, but let you feel morally superior, instead of focusing on the society that is actually rotting out beneath us.
>>27864599
ISIS is a global howl of anguish. It needs to be answered with steadfast compassion, as galling as that may be, and a solid plan for actual, honest nation-building. The Middle East have proven to us that they want democracy via the Arab Spring, that desire is still there, although I think their hopes have been ground into the dirt at this point.
>>27864768
So are all white people here, we're all illegal.
So you think we live in a post racial works, I get it. But we don't, unfortunately race is still a very powerful thing in or society. Because people give it such meaning, and we let our bigotry get the better of us, entire groups of people are disadvantaged and exploited.
Yes, because Clinton who is regarded by people like MaChrystal as actually being militarily and diplomatically capable couldn't "work" with Putin.
Low IQ...... dude try a little harder at least, I'm not even going to address this.
>>27864787
Indeed, they need help, not our violence. All those immigrants are the biggest opportunity in history. Give them training, land, and technology and they can start building entire self sustaining cities. And no one is more loyal than a person who owes you everything.
Instead we let fear of the other rule our emotions and attitudes.
>>27865194
Ehhh...what land, exactly? We should help them prepare to return home and fill the power vacuum that will be left once ISIS is destroyed. I don't think we can expect these people to contribute to a global effort to build green economies just yet.
>>27865407
There's plenty of land, anywhere in Europe. Plenty of space, or America, or China. Give them training, help them set up infrastructure, and these new cities cam serve as examples to the rest of the world of what can be done.
No harder working dedicated people than deaperate immigrants. Give them the opportunity and they will achieve.
America is the sole superpower, built by immigrants. It can and has happened.
>>27865194
>So are all white people here, we're all illegal.
Nope. There was no nation here when we arrived, and we were born on the soil. As for La Raza's argument that we "took" some states, we bought them from Mexico, and allowed all former Mexicans to either go home, or become Citizens of the US. We also acknowledge all children born on US soil as US natives.
>So you think we live in a post racial works, I get it.
The only way to get there is to stop focusing on race. Stop treating people like they are "less than." Focus on equality of possibility, NOT of outcome.
>unfortunately race is still a very powerful thing in or society
We elect a black president TWICE, and race tensions are higher than ever because nobody will stop focusing on it (not even him, or his attorney general).
>Because people give it such meaning, and we let our bigotry get the better of us, entire groups of people are disadvantaged and exploited.
I get it. You're an SJW. I'd bother to continue talking to you, but it's pointless. So long as you focus on "groups" rather than "individuals," we will NEVER come to a meeting of the minds.
So, yeah, you champion of equality in all sectors, embrace the Islam that has it's biggest prophet engage in pedophilia, whose last words were cursing the Jews, and has most civilized country's executing gays. Islam is a majority in the world. 1.6 billion of them. The only groups that compete with them in population have nothing in land mass (Indian and Chinese). But they are totally oppressed.
You want to the US to fuck off and leave them alone? Fine. But the average IQ is two full deviations below whites and Hispanics, and three full deviations below East Asians and Jews.
Go ahead and call me a racist for stating facts. Low IQ people have great difficulties assimilating to high IQ societies.
>>27865452
Oh yeah, just take land from people. That's totally fair, right?
>>27865452
Why not simply help them return to their homes and invest in infrastructure there?
>>27865483
Who wants to invest in a place that is literally being torn apart by civil war, while Turkey, Russia, the US and other plays bomb different actors in that hell hole.
You're taking about failed states, with no peace. These conflicts may drag on for decades or end in a total dissolution of the country into chaos.
>>27865574
They're hellholes because we allow our governments to treat them that way. If we actually gave a shit about them for once they could be beautiful places to visit and inhabit.
>>27865574
So your alternative is to take land that belongs to other people, and give it to people who will have their own cities, that don't need to assimilate with other groups of people, and, I presume, give them all the benefits of a US society, like welfare, social security, medicaid, medicare, food stamps, etc?
In other words, you are against the use of force on displaced, illiterate people, but are totally ok with the use of force on your own people in order to make them happy and comfortable.
Are you a Marxist?
>>27865641
Abusing these countries resulted in Europe being flooded in refugees. This is a direct consequence of our negligence.
There is no good life to be found in politics. It poisons everything. Just like you're doing to /r9k/ now.
>universal income
With who's money? Universal income is a universally bad idea.
>sustainable systems
Like Capitalism?
>>27865641
Sure, but it might be too late for any meaningful intervention.
>>27865659
Nice strawman.
No where did I say take anything, I said give. Also people don't own land, you can't own it, just like you can't own the sky, the air, and the water we all depend on.
What are you, a capitalist?
>>27865661
True enough, and also climate change fueled by our dependence on fossil fuels.
>>27865725
We can always help them rebuild. They've managed to survive a decade of violence over there, I think you're underestimating their tenacity.
Also why the fuck is no one talking about solar-powered cars? That single invention could solve so many massive problems.
>>27865725
>No where did I say take anything, I said give.
>Also people don't own land, you can't own it
The cognitive dissonance here is staggering. If you can't own it, how can you give it? Can you give someone the sky? Bad logic.
Secondly, land can be owned in the eyes of Western Civilization. This is why people pay to purchase property, then pay again to build a house on them, and pay property taxes on it every year.
Your logic is badly flawed. And yes, I am a capitalist. Not a corporatist. Not a socialist. Not an anarchist. I'm guessing that since you differed the question, you are one then. Feel free to deny or confirm it.
bumperino interesting threado
>>27866406
Pretty sure the OP abandoned the thread. He was proven to be a Marxist, an SJW, and most importantly, a fool (although that should be obvious, given the fact that he's an SJW and a Marxist).
>>27865790
Exactly, what you do is just help them, no dissonance, you're just stuck in semantics.
>>27866498
Nope still here. If you have an actual argument to make, make one, otherwise try harder matey.
>>27866563
I've made my arguments. You choosing to ignore them does not magically make them something else.
>Exactly, what you do is just help them, no dissonance, you're just stuck in semantics.
You can't give what you don't own. Otherwise, give me your email, and I'll give you my address, so you can give me some sky.
Since this has devolved into something else, I may as well just go with it.
Climate change is the single largest failure of free market capitalism. The system that attempts to avoid value judgements outside of the market mechanism, has wholeheartedly failed to include the value of the ecological system on which we depend.
Capitalism directly drives the single greatest threat to society. And yet, capitalists would have you believe that the solution is more capitalism.
Sheeessh, and they think my logic is bad.....
>>27866611
You don't own the land. You can't own it.
You can own personal property, but to pretend like you can own nature is insanity, and it's precisely what has caused global warming and our current ecological crisis.
It's a commons problem, some agents think they can do with the commons whatever they want.
>>27866643
Yes, you can own the land. Don't believe me? Go and try to move into a stranger's back yard with a tent and a shit bucket. See how long until the owner calls the police, and the police remove you.
You can think that it shouldn't be that way all you want. But it's just not true.
>>27866643
You gonna show how my logic is flawed, or just go quiet again, hoping that I'll go away, so that you can continue on with your unearned sense of moral superiority?
>>27866613
I think spiralling overpopulation and depletion of natural resources is capitalism's biggest failure. Say there was a whole lot less of us, no atomic bombs, plentiful water etc, stable climate we wouldn't even have any real issues to deal with for hundreds of years but all this technology which has supposedly increased our living standards (and inadvertently caused massed suffering in the undeveloped areas) has actually resulted in very real, much faster approaching extinction threats. If life is suffering having a shit ton of people isn't even a good thing, birth isn't a gift imo. There are way too many people and it came from stupid scientific advances like creating soil fertilizer to enable us to feed all these people.
>>27867351
Except the great successes of capitalism haven't had the population problem. They are actually below replacement levels. The places where birth rates are sky rocketing isn't the EU or the US. They are where capitalism is weakest, and fascism is strongest.
>>27867351
The thing is, capitalism is about GROWTH, you need to keep growing, keep profits high, find new resources or people to exploit. It drives all that.
I don't see us as having an overpopulation problem so much as we have a resource allocation problem. Some people barely survive, while others weigh 400 pounds. Some people create a huge carbon footprint, and some people are dead by age 1.
>>27867258
I have kiddo, I don't accept your notions of private property. I have no reason to.
And you have yet to actually address the largest failure of the free market, ie. climate change.
And if I don't respond, it's not because I'm hoping you go quiet, it's because I am living life and doing other things.
>>27868448
>I have kiddo, I don't accept your notions of private property. I have no reason to.
Other than the law, which you are, in fact, subject to.
>And you have yet to actually address the largest failure of the free market, ie. climate change.
Except that I have. See the next to the last paragraph here: >>27864768
4th Gen nuclear can run on the waste from the first 3 gens, meaning it literally can reduce nuclear waste, produce cheap, safe energy (the failsafes are so thorough that it would take a team of men weeks to dismantle IF they knew what they were doing), and, looking at France vs Germany, would vastly reduce pollution compared to coal, natural gas, and diesel (which are used to back up solar and wind, since you have to be able to produce your peak load whenever it is demanded).
Combine that with electric cars, and the vast majority of pollution would be eliminated, buying you a minimum of a couple decades (at which point fission will be available). Done. Stupid, pointless argument, considering that, ONCE AGAIN, no research is ever presented to the public, only solutions.
>And if I don't respond, it's not because I'm hoping you go quiet, it's because I am living life and doing other things.
Don't start a thread and fuck off for over an hour and a half.
>>27868448
>>27868619
>only solutions
Sorry, meant only conclusions. Never raw data.
>>27866613
Yup. The solution is more capitalism. But a very particular brand of capitalism. A completely new one, in fact. "Enlightened capitalism" or "third way capitalism" perhaps. Whatever you want to call it, it is capitalism that recognizes the natural boundaries of the planet. It would be a matter of thoughtfully employed, sustainable markets.
Sorry for the delay. I really enjoy our conversation, I just needed a quick break. Rapidly working through these ideas is causing my brain to cramp. But I generally believe the best solutions are usually a mixture of capitalism's practicality and socialism's values.
>>27860743
>but I think the good life is partly found in becoming a political citizen
but actually in the article he mentions people attempted to salvage themselves politically, demanding their radical visions from the public, come shortly before the fall
another way is necessary than the usual routes
>>27868731
Incorrect. Capitalism is now branching out into space, meaning colonization of other planets is only a matter of time and need. Look no further than Virgin to see that private industries are willing to fulfill the role of public interest so long as it can be profitable.
Why do I put this forward? Because unless you were willing to eliminate a nation's independence, and subject the entire planet to one governmental entity (which would result in resistance movements whenever a country felt it was being unfairly treated, see Britain in the EU and it's threats to leave it), then your moral mandate can not be pressed upon the Chinese or the Indians, each of whom have a population that outnumbers the US and the EU COMBINED.
>>27868619
The law does not determine what is true. And the research actually is public, in fact there are literally MOUNTAINS of it. You just don't care to see it.
Ok nuclear reactors and electric cars, I'm onboard, so what? I already said we have solutions, the problem is implementing them smart ass.
I started the thread in the morning, I can fuck off whenever I want numbnuts.
>>27868731
To some extent you are saying something true, but not necessarily something that will remain true.
For example, I can concede capitalism will play a part in the solution only because we are still primarily a capitalistic economy that uses the current system to increase implementation and sales of new technology, and the socialist component will do the basic research which enables most of the change.
But where your position fails is in the fact that climate change will require action from ALL MAJOR GOVERNMENTS, and it will require MASSIVE investments in new infrastructure. Something capitalism cannot and will not be able to do. That is why it has caused the problem, but the nature of capitalism is that it does not really plan, it does not really take such risks, it operates under different principles, and under those principles you simply cannot address an issue of this magnitude.
I too enjoy this conversation.
>>27868785
Totally, we should redefine what participation means, how to get people to be socially focused, and what kinds of systems will enable ethical people to arise and sustain a new kind of society.
>>27863406
You are so fucking retarded you think that Islam is a threat because they would kill people? The problem is that they are mass immigrating to Europe and bringing their barbaric, subhuman culture with them. You can read news stories about how Muslims either want special treatment or want laws to be adapted to them. And the cucked left of course is largely giving in to their demands.
>>27868890
>The law does not determine what is true.
This is an argument to selectively use the law however you see fit (like, say, enforcing our own borders). That's not how the law works. That kind of application of the law is what leads to revolutions.
Furthermore, even presuming your bit about the law mattered at all, you simply stating that "people can't own land," isn't self-evident, and has yet to be proven, especially since you are talking about "giving" land that somebody else has already invested on, and is currently using and paying taxes on, to a group of people just because you feel like it's the right thing to do (thus the accusation of the unearned sense of moral superiority).
>the problem is implementing them smart ass.
Thank the left. They bought into the coal and diesel industries' lies that nuclear was super bad, and that solar was the way for NYC to go (despite their long and heavy winters). The campaign has been in effect for decades, and it's done a wonderful job of moving the useful idiots, who just swallow whatever they are told due to feeling good about it. Like you and the thoughts of land ownership.
>>27868847
I think people can recognize by themselves that something must be done to ensure the Earth retains a diverse and nourishing climate. I don't believe China or India are oblivious to this reality. Neither do I believe a single, global government is necessary to implement this change.
>>27869014
In Brussels they have an Islamic Party, whose stated goals are to use democracy to turn Belgium into an Islamic state.
They are also producing WAY more children than the native inhabitants, thanks to their wealth redistribution (which nobody can argue is socialist in nature).
>>27864455
>Climate change though threaten the very basis of or society.
People have been saying this since the 70s and everyone of these overblown predictions has failed miserably. I see no reason to start believing them now.
But yeah sure, the Christian right is a threat, not the insane socialists that want to ruin the US economy and basically let ISIS do whatever the hell they want.
>>27869075
If you don't think China is oblivious to this reality, then your thoughts are not based on any research. They are trashing their ecosystem and boosting their GDP in really fucked up ways (like destroying farms to build an entire metro, which remains empty) in order to offer lower prices and better GDP than the US.
Capitalism is competition. There is no other way to describe it. It is giving the people a product they want at a price they are willing to pay. Any injection of morality into ANY political ideology is nothing more than manipulation into giving a group power that they did not earn.
>>27869152
>Any injection of morality into ANY political ideology is nothing more than manipulation into giving a group power that they did not earn.
This. Nobody can deny that the number of people who were living below poverty was shrinking by 1% per year before welfare was instituted in the US. Then it stagnated, and began to grow. Yet there is never any discussion of how this is a bad thing, and should be ended. Only that you need MORE money taken from others and poured into these communities (who are increasingly irresponsible and stupid). This, of course, causes businesses to purchase politicians, who eliminate competition by throwing so many regulations onto them that you need a legal department that could fill a Wal Mart Supercenter to deal with it all (and, of course, small businesses don't have the resources for that, and will therefore close down).
>>27869222
Fun fact regarding this. It can be seen in other countries, as well. Let's look at Sweden:
Sweden used to have (relatively) less government spending than the USA until the late 60s.
In the 70s their spending increased dramatically and their growth rate tanked and became lower than the rest of the Western countries.
Their country used to be at the very top of the money per capita, but they've sacked quite a bit since the 60s.
Sweden isn't among the top nations in gdp per capita because of socialism. They went from being on the absolute top to whatever place they're at now because of socialism and they're only going to sink further.
It's no wonder that more Swedes are bailing out than ever before.
Ditto for a lot of the EU, as well. In particular Jews and gays are doing everything they can to bail out into the US or Australia. And if you don't think that Jews and gays are a good canary in the coal mine when it comes to oppression, you aren't very familiar with their treatment throughout the years. Muslims are moving in en masse, and aren't nearly as tolerant of these groups as Westerners are.
>>27869014
Great b8 m8.
>>27869056
A revolution is just what we might need. I'm not the one assuming something that isn't self-evident. It's self evident that I don't own a river, or the sky, or the air, and that applies to the land. All because you have some kid of paper with written language on it, and others are willing to use violence to enforce the paper, doesn't mean you actually own land.
That position is the one that needs to be defended. We use land, we live on land, but what does land ownership actually mean? How does one own something like that?
No, that's beyond the left/right divide, Americans are just very paranoid people, and nuclear energy is very scary to them. I am also very in favor of solar as well.
>>27869151
I don't intend to debate the science when literally every single scientific body on earth agrees that not only is climate change happening, but that we are directly causing it.
If you want to learn, do research, but I'm not here to convince you of established science, and we are feeling the effects all over the world.
>>27869439
>says Sweden has gotten bad
>among the highest qualities of life in the world
>cuz of socialism
Indeed, it was Socialism that enabled such a high quality of life there. Finland went even further and ensured the best education system in the world for all children. And even provide newborn children with a sweet starter kit.
And national healthcare of course.
Those damn socialists!
>>27870469
Why don't you just go live in a socialist country then? Surely you'll be happier there?
>>27870842
Great b8 m8.
In addition to literally being insane, Chris Hedges is a well-known plagiarist.
