>tfw you realize satan is morally superior than god
>>27484930
>superior than
I want you to die.
I've already come to that conclusion. Granted, I've also come to the conclusion that it's all just a bunch of made-up fairy tales as well, so it's a moot point.
>>27484962
>I've already come to that conclusion
If you're taking the bible as mythology, how could you think that?
I find it interesting; the despite the fact that you'll usually find only the cringiest of cringelords espousing this idea, there is some merit to it. Lucifer is a very Promothean character, and there are examples of him being an anti-hero going way back. He's quite symphathetic in Paradise Lost, if a bit whiny, even though that was definitely not the pious Milton's intent. And what his actual sin is isn't really clear in the mythology. Refused to bow down to Adam, it seems, and developed free will despite angels apparently not being created with one. Gave mankind knowledge. Now resides in Hell where he punishes the wicked. Aaaand this makes him the worst thing ever? Kinda confusing, but I figure it's just the mythology showing it's age; our values have shifted since then.
It actually gets even more confusing in Islamic mythology, since worshipping images of God is considered haram - as fucken haram as it gets actually - and therefore Luficer would have been given a contradicting order ("Don't worship images of me, but now worship Adam who is an image of me!").
>>27484930
if you considering alluding people into sin so he can torture them then maybe.
isn't that satans job to make gods follower disbelieve in their faith and gods actual existence then wreck them in the afterlife?
>>27485226
I guess that OP considered only Satan's intent. The consequences were fucked up, though.
>>>>>>>>>
Stop taking the books so literally, they weren't meant to be taken literally.
Satan is basically the natural force of destruction. Nature creates life and destroys it, creates and destroys and so on. What Satan tries to do is to end all creation after destruction because he thinks it would be better if nothing AT ALL was created anymore so there wouldn't be anything to wage war, kill, lie or cry. Yes, there would be no suffering anymore if there was nothingness. But the pursuit for knowledge would also be over, and since knowledge is inherently good, his struggle against life and the resulting rise in knowledge makes him evil.
>>27485245
ya i think i'm looking at it in very simple terms.
satan was quite aware of the implications of his actions. it was a coordinated effort to cast 'negative' influence of gods creation.
>>27485188
>he thinks satan has free will
>thinks he isn't just a tool
there aren't a lot of gods from human history that aren't dicks or drama-filled faggots in some way or form huh
>>27485299
tell that to christians. op was thinking about the bible really philosophically christians are the ones that think masturbating leads to doom.
there's actually a hilarious image that shows the milky way galaxy just being a spec among millions of over galaxies and has god in the heavens saying 'don't masturbate'.
>>27485327
A modern westernized asshole probably has a hard time taking anything serious that doesn't pander to his feelings
>>27485299
>knowledge is inherently good
What?
Also your post makes it sounds like reincarnation was held hostage by "Satan".
Thanks for confirming that Bible/Quran are shit-tier for religious philosophy. Don't get me started on the whole free will shit.
>>27485353
Thousands of years have passed, you'd think at one point someone would have made a nice chill religion with enjoyable adventure stories involving the gods, no contradictory non-sense and vague directions to be a nice person.
>>27485319
We'll it's implied in the mythos that he does have it. That he Fell precisely because he defied God. But you are right, the Book of Revelations it is implied that the forces of evil (Satan/Lucifer is never specifically mentioned) are merely tools that God "allows" to do certain things because it's part of His plan. But if so, it seems strange to punish Lucifer for doing what God made him do? If I control someone like a puppet and make them do something evil, they're not being evil, I am. Like I said, the mythos is kinda confusing and inconsistent. It emerged over millennia, after all, in different geographical and cultural settings.
>>27485353
>A modern westernized asshole probably has a hard time taking anything serious that doesn't pander to his feelings
lot of assumptions for one shitpost
>>27485366
Knowledge being inherently good is not a part of Christianity.
I did not even think about reincarnation.
>>27485398
>Knowledge being inherently good is not a part of Christianity.
Then what about the original sin, are you seriously trolling me?
>>27485391
I'd argue you can find stuff like that among neo-pagan and pagan-revivalist groups, asatru especially, and even some new religous groups working in older traditions (Golden Dawn, OTO, etc.). Even satanists are pretty chill irl, even though they get a bad rep and some of them are cringy as fuck. Wiccans can be... wierd and there are a lot of sjws drawn to that, but as a philosophy it ain't bad if you don't take it too seriously and go overboard.
>>27485226
I thought Satan was tormented in hell like everyone else is, not king of hell.
wow so much fucking retarded shit spouted in this thread. Let's get started.
>>27485188
Paradise lost isn't even part of the canon, not to mention that it holds many ideas that are considered heretical.
However I have to give you respect for noticing the fact that the "Bowing to Adam" idea is contradictory as hell. But if we instead of looking at the quran, look at the bible, we see that the bible holds a very different idea as to why Satan fell. In the bible he is already fallen by the time of Adam because he desires to be God and he therefore tries to claim Adams domain by making him sin and usurping his position.
>>27485226
>isn't that satans job to make gods follower disbelieve in their faith and gods actual existence then wreck them in the afterlife?
Depends really on which Abrahamic religion you think about (think your idea is most inline with some modern sects of judaism).
In christianity Satans job was to protect the throne of God before he fell.
>>27485245
I guess that OP considered only Satan's intent. The consequences were fucked up, though.
Essentially this.
>>27485299
where the fuck did you get all those ideas? He is implied to love creation because he wants to be the God of it and bend it to his own will.
>>27485336
>thinking that the story of Onan was about masturbation and not inheritance.
Ok mate, keep tipping that fedora.
cont.
Stop being silly and entertaining this, it's ridiculous. All you have to do is point out that God defines morality by his own perfect nature which means that the Devil and co. are objectively immoral since they contradict God's perfect nature.
>God made morality
>God's nature is perfect and cannot diverge from perfection
>No other being is perfect like God
>Satan cannot be more moral than God
>>27485759
cont.
>>27485394
Well that depends on your view of freewill in regards to prophecy, you seem to hold a non-compatible view on it, while many theologians especially those who hold molinism to be true, are Compatibilists.
But to answer you question in short; satan sees himself as the Lord of freedom because to him sin is freedom, however, he only wants others to sin as to gain control over them (since in the bible, sin enslaves). The book of revelation proposes that Satan, although the father of sin, is not the lord of it, but the ultimate slave of it, since he can't escape the end that it brings upon him. (Notice how he goes from being the anointed cherub in the beginning of the bible to be the a destroyed being forever stuck in the lake of fire?, and thus confirming the destructive nature of sin).
Further on, the reason Satan gets punished is because of his actions, not because of Gods plan. The plan could technically have been fulfilled w/o anyone rebelling, not to mention that a great part of satans sins are in active rebellion against parts of Gods plan (example: The destiny of mankind).
>>27485398
>Knowledge being inherently good is not a part of Christianity.
This is arguable since Jesus himself says: "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." (John 8:32).
not to mention that Solomon was praised for desiring knowledge/wisdom over power and glory.
>>27485691
>I thought Satan was tormented in hell like everyone else is, not king of hell.
You are right, hell (or to be more specific the lake of fire) was specifically made for Satan and his angels. And the two first people to enter it are part of the satanic trinity, the false prophet and the anti-christ.
>>27485834
But anon, we killed god and supplanted his objective system of morals with our own more twisted and ambiguous morality
No homo
You do realize he hates literally every human right?
The whole reason he got kicked out heaven was because he got really jealous and butthurt when God said they're better than him
Like sure he's not objectively evil but he fucking hates you
>morally
>superior
Nice spooks nerd
>>27485759
I never claimed Paradise Lost is part of the canon, just that it was an example of Lucifer portrayed in a semi-positve, anti-heroic light. Also, it may not be canon, but we're talking about the mythos not the canon. One cannot deny that Milton and Dante had an impact on the Christian mythos.
Also, you are right about the Bible, except it doesn't acually tell the tale of the Fall. It alludes to the "fallen Morningstar", but there is no actual story in the Bible about an Archangel rebelling against God. The Snake is often identified as Satan, as so are the baddies in the Book of Relevations, but this is never actually confirmed.
>>27485837
A good explanation, anon. Honestly, I think this idea was very well espoused in (thinly) allegorical form in the Silmarillion and Morgoth's rebellion against Iluvatar, in which he tries to create by is incapable to do anything else but corrupt Iluvatar's creations, disrupting the harmonies (which itself requires Iluvatar's creation and is hence just a imperfect variation of it - creation in the same sense as smashing a vase is "creating" the pieces). He too becomes a prisoner of and slave to his corruption.
>The plan could technically have been fulfilled w/o anyone rebelling
What would that look like?
>>27485834
I think they mean it more as an outsider looking in, of cause in the story morality is defined by god.
i a m t h e d e v i l
c h e c k e m
s a l v e t e i n f e r n u m
ITT: people who have never read the bible
Whatever you think the gods great plan is, it involves people being blind and dumb sheep. Satan gave people a free will and separated them from god, which is referred as the original sin and is why christianity tries to fight against. Now it doesn't matter who is morally "superior" here, all that matters is that god wants blind believers he can control for the greater good and satan wants individualism.
>inb4 jesus
The involvement and actual relevance of Jesus is debatable, if you read the gospels, you can pretty much see satan "tormenting" him in the desert. What he is really trying to do is to figure out who this fellow is and what kind of a king he is actually.
What he sees is a tool to reunite people with God and fucks off, because people are totally free to reunite with God. Why?
Because now they can actually choose to do so.
wait OP, are you saying graphic novels aren't books?
>>27486232
>I never claimed Paradise Lost is part of the canon
Sorry, didn't mean that you meant that paradise lost was part of the canon. Should have been more clear there, my bad.
>Also, you are right about the Bible, except it doesn't acually tell the tale of the Fall.
I agree to a certain extent, but I would say that the story about the prince of Tyre is a parallel to satans fall (since some theologians consider this to be the case because it speaks of an anointed cherub who wanted to become God). Therefore it is debatable whether or not the fall is mentioned. I would say that the fall of satan is mentioned (since we know details such as his rank, his purpose for existing, and what lead to his fall not to mention his motives), but that it leaves a lot to be desired.
>no actual story in the Bible about an Archangel rebelling against God.
Well that's because Satan was a cherub not an archangel, I suppose.
>The Snake is often identified as Satan, as so are the baddies in the Book of Relevations, but this is never actually confirmed.
Some of it is confirmed through imagery and sy,symbolism. The snake is confirmed through the verses that refer to satan as "the serpent of old who deceived the whole world". However others are harder to answer, such as, who is Apollyon? Is he satan or some other being.
But I agree with you to an extent.
cont.
cont
>>27486788
>What would that look like?
Obviously it relates to the question of evil and why it is allowed to exist. In Christianity the problem of evil is resolved by the fact that Evil only is allowed to exist for a limited time and will have a ultimate end, not to mention that it is allowed to exist because a redeemed world is better than an innocent world. Some qualities can only be acquired through redemption from Sin, such as patience (as shown in the story of Adam and Eve. They were innocent and through redemption they can acquire grander qualities like patience and wisdom). Not to mention that in Christianity Evil is exhausting it's powers, remember how I mentioned that Satan went from being the anointed cherub of the throne to be a fallen one of the lake of fire? Well that is very similar to your own comparison to Morgoth's rebellion (no surprise there, since Silmarillion is heavily based on the bible).
So a world where the plan is fulfilled without rebellion is a world were the created beings clearly proved that they already have the greater making qualities (like Archangel Michael does by resisting the fall), by showing patience and not taking the shortcut through the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
But to be quite honest with you, I don't think that such a thing can be really answered if one assumes that humans are fallen creatures in a fallen world, since all we would know would be antithetical to a perfect world like that.
>>27486795
That's a pretty interesting way of looking at things, anon. I always wondered why it was called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and why eating it was forbidden and a bad thing. I always wondered why God put it there to begin with. From what you're saying it's not like a hard rule, he just gave humans the option of taking the slow but safe path to wisdom or Falling and getting wisdom hrough experience and suffering. Kinda reminds me of eastern views, especially tantra, where there is a Left and Right path (dakshinachara and vamachara) which are equally legit paths to enlightement, but the Left being faster but more dangerous.
Are you a theology or philosophy student or just a devout believer?
Satanism is edgy fanfiction
>>27486014
People can have whatever system of morality, but that doesn't change the truth
>>27486302
to accept the premise that Satan is more moral, you have to accept that Satan and the story of him is true, which requires the acceptance that God is true. If God is true (he is) then Satan is immoral. This doesn't change whether OP is an atheist or a good christian.
>>27488934
Not really. That's only true if some accepts the reasoning that God, per definition, is always the moral one regardless what he does and that the opposite is true for Satan. There's no reason to accept this reasoning. Really, it amounts to a kind of might-is-right morality where God is right because he is God and not by virtue or good deeds.
In fact, one doesn't have to accept the story as true, but just imagine it as a story and ask "which charecter is the most moral one?".
>>27484930
Eghil > Satan
>>27489409
That is the definition of the christian God whom we're discussing in this thread, as formulated in holy scripture and in holy tradition.
Here are some verses:
Mark 10:18
Luke 18:19
Matthew 5:48
Deuteronomy 32:4
You cannot just argue what OP is arguing, then afterwards say "well, we're not even talking about the same God!"
>...might-is-right morality where God is right because he is God and not by virtue or good deeds
God is good because his nature is good. He created everything, he declares what's moral and what isn't. No one else has that authority. God has authority over everything (2 Chronicles 20:6), God created everything (read Genesis)
>In fact, one doesn't have to accept the story as true, but just imagine it as a story and ask "which charecter is the most moral one?".
If one character declares morality and is perfection personified and the other willfully disorbeys the former, then the former must logically be the most moral person, and the latter must be immoral.
The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh. Everything is under his sovereign, he can do with it as he pleases. He could wipe out the face of the earth, the action doesn't matter. If God did it, it was right because God is by definition perfect (that is, the Christian god) and because God is incapable of doing wrong since he cannot contradict his nature (Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2, (
James 1:13)
Hopefully I clarified myself a bit better.
Isn't Lucifer just a patsy
I mean, none of the other angels have personalities, they just blindly follow God's word to the letter
But this one guy magically cultivated a personality and an ideology in the same environment?
Anyone like the show Lucifer? https://youtu.be/V2or2T62T1I
>>27484930
Satan is basically a cosmic Hitler
He went against the kike god and ever since has been depicted has cartoonishly monsterish for it, despite the fact that Yahweh is the far more bloodthirsty figure in the Torah.
>>27484930
>tfw satan had nothing better to do than to stare out and ponder the abyss instead of basking in gods glorious love
Great comic. Did anyone read it?
>tfw no qt elaine god gf
>>27484930
Thought that pic was Prometheus at first.
>>27485391
how about dem vikings?
>>27489785
>God is good because his nature is good. He created everything, he declares what's moral and what isn't.
I understand that bit, even though I think it's a bit of argument-by-definition anyway since there can be no way to dispove it.
But that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that morality is defined as "whatever God does is cool when He does it". Killing? Evil and wrong and the Bible tells us so over and over. Cool when God does it, though. He can destroy entire cities, an act that if done by a human most Christians would condemn as wicked. But it's cool when God does it. It comes off not so much as Him being the definition of what morality is, but the EXCEPTION to it. Anything He does, whatever it is, is Good, even though it would be evil if anyone else did it.
Try a thought experiment. A powerful, non-divine being, say Superman Prime or whatever, takes control of the world. Finding the Bible, and seeing arguments such as yours that God is the ultimate Good, he takes that to heart and tries to do EVERYTHING God does. Guiding people and giving them rules to live by, yes, but also demanding worship, asking people to sacrifice their kids to him to "test their faith" and destroying cities, etc. etc. This being is NOT God, but repeats as closely as is possible all the actions taken by God in the Bible. Question: is this being Good or is it a wicked tyrant?
If it is Good, then I was right in it being a might-is-right morality, as anyone with the power can do it. If it is wicked, then I am right in that God is the expection to moral rules, and that His acts, if divorced from his divinity and/or done by anyone else, are wicked.
>>27489785
cont.
>Everything is under his sovereign...
The problem is that it works if, and only if, you accept this total submission to God because he is real and true. To the non-believer, your god seems horrifying.
Another thought experiment. I start a new religion, at the center of which is a god whom I call Molokth the Souleater. Apart from this somewhat corny name, my religion is a perfect mirror of Christianity. Molokth's holy book is essentially the Bible, with every instance of "God" replaced with "Molokth" and every instance of "Jesus" replaced with "Cruumsh, son of Molokth". Molokth the Souleater makes all the same actions and demands as God in the Bible. I, his priest, make the same description of him as you do about God. All that about perfection and Good by definition. Any action Molokth commits is Good because he is Molokth and he needs to other justification than that. What is your attiude to Molokth the Souleater? Is he A) A just and good God whom you will gladly devote your life to worshipping without question or B) A malignant entity whom you will reject?
>>27484930
>tfw you realise you don't understand the bible or morality.
Hi I'm OP.
>people arguing over stories written by men thousands of years ago
>these people actually take these words to heart and see them all undeniably true
I will never understand you people and your reasoning behind believing in something so contradictory and old fashioned.
>>27484930
>>27485188
Satan literally works for God. He's the accuser, he's only allowed to fuck shit up when god allows it. They're morally equivalent. Remember the Book of Job?
>God chilling doing god stuff
>Satan starts chatting with him
>This is apparently normal for them
>"Hey, you know that Job guy?"
>"Yeah, he's great, really pious."
>"I think he's only pious because you gave him a good life."
>"You think so?"
>"Yeah, bet I could make him turn on you if you let me ruin his life."
>"Sounds like fun, go for it."
Molokth the Souleater is love.
Molokth the Souleater is life.
>"Our heavenly Father Molokth the Souleater understands our disappointment, suffering, pain, fear, and doubt. He is always there to encourage our hearts and help us understand that He's sufficient for all of our needs. When I accepted this as an absolute truth in my life, I found that my worrying stopped." - Ben Dover
>>27485015
It's the most common way to come to that conclusion, because if you still fear God you fear the thought of Satan being "right"
From an atheist perspective, you can look at the story more objectively and begin to wonder things like "Why is God such an asshole, what's wrong with eating the fruit of knowledge" etc.
>>27490797
>question
Not everything God does ought be emulated by his believers because in some cases, only God has the authority and the divine right to do so (like when he flooded the Earth)
God only does something because it's the perfect thing to do. If it was not, he wouldn't be able to do it at all.
Futhermore, when God destroys cities as he did with Sodom and Gomorrah, you have to take in the factors and things going on that was unique and warranted it's destruction. There was not one sinner there, in old testamential times, and God desired it to be destroyed. His desire is perfect, so the perfect thing was for it to be destroyed.
>God is immoral if he didn't have his divinity
By what basis can you even judge morality on, as a secular? There are no moral obligations to even condemn anyone on, only subjective, wishy-washy morality so this kind of arguing is futile to me.
>>27490870
>To the non-believer, your god seems horrifying
It's said that the unrighteous fear that which is good. Following and believing God requires that you sacrifice yourself and your sinful ways, of course the unreprentant sinner in his ignorance thinks these thoughts. God has blessed his Church with reasoning and authority to teach and to alleviate this, however, and help them come to the joyful truths as I wish that you do.
>Molokth the Souleater
I'm assuming that the religion replaced Christianity in which case: If he was defined as God is, and has the same historical claims, then I would be bound to, of course. Seems like a meaningless thought experiment though, the changing of names doesn't matter. Am I being memed?
>>27491134
You are being memed, by the church that is.
>>27491546
yeah, thanks, I had a hunch.
Doesn't God spend pretty much all of the old testament murdering people and ordering others to kill entire sects of people?
How many people has Satan killed?
>>27485834
smash dat fuckin worship button
NO THOTS
>>27491632
I recommend watching bishop Robert Barron explain this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A65Wfr2is0
I recommend looking into biblical exegesis. Origen has written on the topic, too.
What if Satan, God, Heaven itself and all the angels are one big amalgamation of energy and power which you could call God and the reason this being made the universe is to remove the parts of itself it doesn't like. The twist is: we human beings are both the good and bad parts of this being and the fate of the universe depends on us.
>>27491632
yes, but god looked out after his people. he eliminated any threat that stood against them. and made his people stand up for themselves. that sounds like a god that has your back. Satan has killed way more and still is.
>>27484957
isn't superior to and superior than both correct?
>>27491632
>How many people has Satan killed?
Job's entire family and all of his servants
>>27491002
The book of Job reads very much like a stage play.
>>27491134
>authority
So, that confirms it then. He's a special case, he has authority because He is who He is. His nature as divine makes Him right. It's "might is right" by another name.
One cannot call a being Good for simply BEING. To be Good has always been undersstood in terms of virtues, the nature of one's intentions, or one's duty, or consequences of one's actions. But for God this does not apply. He simply operates on another level which doesn't concern us, apparently.
Again, it's all just argument by definition, in circles. God is right because he is God and being God means being right. Nietzsche used to call Christians the greatest nihlists, and now I understand why. There are no values here, no virtues, no reason, no consistent moral system - nothing. Only God. As a religion, it is empty. It has, unlike say Buddhism, no teachings of value to the unbeliever.
>By what basis can you even judge morality on?
On the basis of using my actual moral faculties. Reason, to think - compassion, to feel - and debate and delberation with others to learn. My morality is real BECAUSE it is subjective to an extent, because I have to feel and think it, and it becomes 'objective' through interactions with others. But it's never unchanging. I can always learn and grow.
You on the other hand have no morality of your own; you have OBEDIENCE to God, and that for you is considered Good. But you remain all the while empty; you could save a life or take the same life and both would be equally Good as long as God commanded it.
>It's said that the unrighteous fear that which is good.
And it is said that Righteous are disgusted by that which is wicked. I do not fear you; but I am disgusted, at a deeply spiritual level, by you. Your emptiness, lack of your own convictions, your... hollowness, is all very uncanny.
>Actually and unironically accepting Molokth
You're a nihilist.
Coming from someone who has met them both (they hang out together usually)
God is just, but uses the most harsh methods to heal the most broken people of the world, as it is the only way really. that is why he is disliked. Satan sits in the row behind, just throwing out the answers. it helps, sort of...not really. God is the only answer but satan isn't as evil as everyone thinks. hes just not as smart. He tries to replicate God, but isn't powerful enough to do so. He ends up causing more harm than good. But when they work as a team, its pretty amazing to see them work.
(they're helping me ascend to Chad Turbo, fixing my fucked up legs from an accident i had so I can grow more)
All in all they're both great guys. God is much scarier, but satan is a mix of awesome/crazy. Both the most interesting people to be around though.
>>27485188
>It actually gets even more confusing in Islamic mythology, since worshipping images of God is considered haram - as fucken haram as it gets actually - and therefore Luficer would have been given a contradicting order ("Don't worship images of me, but now worship Adam who is an image of me!").
Lol
Muslims. Nobody said they were intelligent.
>>27491931
No it's just superior to.
>>27491686
>any parts that you don't like are only metaphors
>just pick and choose like a buffet
>>27485188
>since worshipping images of God is considered haram
because it would show mohammad to be a red bearded white man
>>27492144
It is not that God 'decides' what is morally good; God IS good and so what God says, does and commands is morally good.
You seem to not grasp this very fundamental thing that I am trying to tell you. God's goodness is not measured by his actions since we cannot comprehend them in full, God's goodness is measured by his very being, his very definition and his personality, his nature, his everything is perfectly good. This we know. If you cannot understand this, cannot comprehend that this is God, then we're not talking about the same God and you're attacking a straw-man, I am sorry to say. This kind of arguing is fruitless.
I'll pray for you, and I hope the Holy Spirit will guide you to peace.
>having beliefs
you done fucked up
>>27492287
this is the superior answer
>>27492194
>Satan sits in the row behind, just throwing out the answers. it helps, sort of...not really.
Reminds me of someone I know.
why does he want to stab my buttox with a trident
>>27492198
It's even more crazy because God immediatley wants to smite him for his insolence, but then he goes like "whoah, dude wait... bet you I can make these humans you just made sin against you too!" and God's like "cool, you do that, your pushment can wait".
>>27489820
avoid that show, is just police drama.
Read Lucifer (Vertigo Comics) Instead
>>27489907
I read it, it has pretty interesting ideas about the nature of humanity. I will never forget the final confrontation, when elaine understood why it was worth it to safe the creation.
>>27492287
Well said chap.
>sit around all day in a garden fucking bitches and eating an endless supply of food forever
>woman comes along and tricks you into eating the one thing you weren't allowed to
>suddenly death/war/famine/droughts/eternal agony etc
I would take being a mindless zombie without any suffering for all of eternity over free will any day of the fucking week.
>>27484930
The victors write the history books.
>>27493282
>fucking bitches
The forbidden fruit was sex, buddy.
