What makes masculinity "toxic"?
there is honestly some merit to the whole "toxic masculinity" thing
it's bad for young men to be told they're not men if they act a certain way, they need to "man up", "grow a pair", stop being a pussy, etc.
>>27199059
can someone plz tell me what this is
>>27199059
Absolutely nothing if you're channeling it into the right areas
>>27199223
That's doing it wrong
>>27199059
its two things: violent tendencies and caring about pride over practicality.
I assume these are what they're talking abut.
>>27199223
This also ties in with many men's issues like male disposability, suicide, homelessness etc and prevents them from being addressed. The whole idea that men don't need support nor should they want it.
>>27199059
>What makes masculinity "toxic"?
The modern feminist thinks that it's possible for men to be violent and dangerous but only in ways that they approve(i.e military, and defense of the country etc), but not in every other setting, i.e beating the shit out of her, for stepping out of line, beating people who smacktalk etc.
The problem with this is that, the same kind of masculinity that makes Chad Thundercock think it's fun to beat the shit out of betas at a party, is also the same masculinity that will make him beat his wife, but they clearly don't understand this at all.
>>27199223
>>27200005
One of the issues I have with the phrase is that it implies a doublestandard.
You never hear about "toxic blackness" when niggers nig. Cuckservatives occasionally use "thug culture" but even that weak euphemism is getting low key censored.
Nor do you hear about "toxic femininity" when some cunt drowns her kids, or sleeps with half the town. In fact, those things are either feminine empowerment or they're made out to be a man's fault.
Men need to have their energy directed in healthy ways... a bit of tough love and challenging expectations is an important part of this.
Masculinity isn't toxic at all. It's insecure asshats being loud, obnoxious, and violent because that's how they deal with their insecurities. Unfortunately, these people who are complaining about it seem to be fooled into thinking that's what defines masculinity as well.
>>27199059
it's not masculinity that is toxic; it's self-respect. feminists want men to submit to them. when they don't, they call it toxic masculinity. pretty simple.
plz someone tell me who this is, i wanna watch the video
>>27199059
>What makes masculinity "toxic"?
Just a slight correction to the way you framed this question: I don't think anyone is suggesting any or all masculinity is toxic, but only that some traits commonly associated with masculinity are toxic. It's a subtle, but important difference.
>>27199980
Go to 9:04 and watch the faggotry unfold
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YU3vcvGpALQ
>>27200146
If I had to make a movie about liberals vs. nationalist, I couldn't pick more liberal looking people than them. It's by the book. Everything. The way they dress, their haircuts, their voices, their postures.
>>27199059
Nothing, its just another way for the left to castrate white males. Thus forcing white women to breed with shitskins.
>>27199059
reminder testosterone is literally a toxin and makes you die sooner
How do I be a man if I've never had to become one before in my life?
>>27199223
>it's bad for young men to be told they're not men if they act a certain way, they need to "man up", "grow a pair", stop being a pussy, etc.
I don't think that's universally bad. It shouldn't be used all the time, but I think one of the facets of a good parent is knowing when to say that.
I'm currently doing my dissertation on hegemonic masculinity, it's actually a very interesting subject
>>27200646
Stellar b8 m8, it made me ir8.
>>27199223
It's literally just a term that sociology undergrads coined that allows them to distance themselves from "dudebro"/frat types.
Obviously there is an internal struggle for a lot of men who are sensitive, especially artistic types, if their fathers or whoever gave them shit for not playing football growing up, but "toxic masculinity" as an epidemic is without merit.
Especially because there is a real and normal basis for manly traits: things like leadership, strength, speaking one's mind, doing hard work out of necessity, etc. And there's also a real basis for unmanly traits, like meekness, preference towards comfort, etc. I'm not saying that women can't be manly, either. That's where the whole gender thing comes into play. There are manly women who lead and want to play hardball, just like there are effeminate men who would prefer to follow and be taken care of.
>>27200625
Being ignored is much worse. Growing up without some expectations and responsibilities leaves men adrift.
I narrowly avoided life as a hopeless pussy and possible NEETdom because of one of my first bosses.
>you're gonna have to get stronger if you want my job anon
>hustle up
>you did good this morning
>>27200646
You're a waste of oxygen.
>>27200646
Wow, what an original topic, anon!
>>27200756
>Obviously there is an internal struggle for a lot of men who are sensitive, especially artistic types, if their fathers or whoever gave them shit for not playing football growing up
There really isn't, because if there's nothing about wanting to be an artist that means you're automatically a beta faggot that shouldn't be able to tell your father to go fuck himself for hating on you for not playing football growing up.
>>27199223
I've never encountered any of these "gender roles" shit people go on about in this day and age of intensity politics, I presume its an american thing
>>27200612
WTF
T
F
You have been muted for 2 seconds, because your comment was not original.
>>27200810
True, which is where a beta artist would rely on a term like toxic masculinity or a concept like social determinism to explain why they are mediocre or why they haven't made it as an artist.
>>27200124
Hence "toxic" masculinity - because just ordinary masculinity is fine and healthy, but it's when people do fucked up things because they're insecure about their masculinity that it becomes a toxic thing. Anon here >>27200019
is right; it's not just how it affects women (though of course there's gonna be alots of cunts who make that claim), but it's supposed to be about how these standards of masculinity actually hurt guys in lots of ways.
>>27200107
You misunderstand the point of the term. Blacks aren't driven by the desire to be as black as humanly possible; their value as humans isn't judged by how "black" their behaviour is - if anything, more sterotypical black behaviour will reduce their value. Women are certainly interested in being feminine, but aren't driven by it to the same degree that guys are driven by being "masculine". It's SUPER important to us. Not being "man" enough is the worst insult, the worst possible humiliation. Being a "beta" is a great fear, being an "alpha" is something we read books and watch videos on how to be. We're willing to do crazy shit to protect our masculinity. Just look at this site, people express their fears regarding their masculinity all the time. But the question is: is this really good for us guys? This standard, these demands, all this shit we must do to be "real men", is it fair?
Men need to claim for themselves the discourse surrounding "toxic" masculinity; in fact the masculinity discourse as a whole. I know it's tempting to do the typical /r9k/ thing and just say "fuck the feminists", but this time we're actually dealing with something that's pretty close to what we've been talking about all along: how gender roles and gender expectations are actually hurting us guys too. How we're not all perpetrators because 'patiarchy', but that we're often the victims as well. "Toxic masculinity" is basically just Chad-behaviour; it's the stigmata against being a "beta".
>>27200868
>which is where a beta artist would rely on a term like toxic masculinity or a concept like social determinism to explain why they are mediocre or why they haven't made it as an artist.
kek, I guess you're right.
But masculinity is really the shit I describe here >>27200089
The concept of Masculinity is skewed by moderns.
Being a man doesn't mean doesn't mean being Arnold in commando, it means being a civilized human being who cares about his society, culture, and responsibility for his actions.
Being a man entails not only physical excellence, or the striving towards it, but also mental excellence. A man should be as cultured as he is strong, nobility is heart's home, and that's how it should be.
He lauds his nation when it excels in virtue and rebukes it when it does an undue evil unto itself or its neighbors, and he always strives for its improvement.
The best part of being a man is that a woman can do it too.
>>27200874
So basically what you're saying is that men who can't man up need to change the definition of what it means to be a man so that they can feel comfortable. K.
>>27199223
Life's tough. Stop being a pussy and man up. No one will hand you anything on a plate unless they can put a cock inside you.
>>27200646
More info on this, anon. What subject, level, uni? Would like to read this; far too little research on masculinity being done. Most focus is on women.
>ywn have a big dick
>ywn be natty
>ywn be alpha
>ywn make stacey squeal
>ywn be good enough
>>27200906
Bdkdbdkdbd
>>27200146
Why is it always that SJW resort to unironically saying Trump is literally Hitler?
>>27200991
Why is it that losers get offended when people don't think Hitler/Trump is un-ironically badass?
>>27200991
Because to them, he is basically Hitler.
>>27200612
This is a troll postI'm 70% sure
>>27200146
Isn't Trump kind of like an anti Hitler?
Hitler loved Islam and hated the Jews where Trump is pro Israel and Anti-Muslim.
>>27200906
God I really need to internalize this attitude. Every time I meet a woman I start acting like a bitch seeking security and fuck it up. I really need to stop being a pussy.
>>27200904
Depends on what you mean by "man up". Anon here >>27200756 has some great examples of very positive manly traits:
>things like leadership, strength, speaking one's mind, doing hard work out of necessity
And that's all great, very healthy. People should all strive for that, and avoid the unmanly traits the same anon mentions, like meekness.
That's not the problem. Masculinity is not the problem. Hence the qualifier "toxic". 'Toxic masculinity' is when someone is unable to display REAL, ACTUAL masculine traits like strenght, curage, etc. but resorts to being an asshat and a bully to compensate. It's not real masculinity at all.
The example in the image in >>27200612 is actually good. Bullying a girl = toxic masculinity ; knocking the bully the fuck out and immediately hitting on the girl = positive masculinity
>>27201023
people who think Trump is badass don't necessarily think that Hitler is badass
the point is that it's unfair to compare Trump to Hitler
>>27199059
why are you listening to those women? Those women are female supremacists, they of course out of their irrational hatred hate anything male like. They are stupid and delusional.
>>27200904
If you ask 100 men what is a man you'll get 100 different answers. It's arbitrary to begin with, there is no real definition aside from "human male."
The fact that such notions exist in the first place is, well, toxic.
Are you guys legit brain dead? How are you still beating this horse when it wasn't funny from the first moment? How the fuck are you this stupid? This is common behavior of children with severe, debilitating autism except even they don't repeat the same shit for literally years. What the fuck? I'm stunned that people this stupid exist in the world. You took "not knowing when to stop" and redefined our understanding of it, and then did that 5 more times. You're unfathomably retarded and I can't believe how shitty your taste in humor is. Literally "lol xddd i said it again xddd" the joke.
Nothing, it's just an attempt to demonize healthy behavior that leftists deem threatening to their desired utopia.
>>27200810
I couldn't play contact sports because of a medical condition. I think my dad pretty much gave up on me when I was 5, for that and other reasons. I can't say whether it would have been better to be told to man up all the time instead of being invisible for the formative years.
>>27200874
>Blacks aren't driven by the desire to be as black as humanly possible; their value as humans isn't judged by how "black" their behaviour is
Wow, that is incredibly wrong. We're talking about a culture where a kid who works hard and excels is beaten up for being an Oreo, and murderers in turf wars are the apex of achievement.
>Women are certainly interested in being feminine, but aren't driven by it to the same degree
That's because, especially post 2nd wave feminism, their only expectation in life is to have a wet hole. They pass out womanhood with the second X chromosome. Manhood is earned.
Testosterone and male neurophysiology is a hell of a drug. Sane societies find ways to take advantage of all that energy and willfulness to channel it into industry, family, and protection from other "tribes"--they don't just say "it's bad, better force our children to become confused half men who want to chop their dicks off or shoot up schools".
>>27201074
>If you ask 100 men what is a man you'll get 100 different answers
B U L L S H I T
If you believe that you are delusional.
>>27201036
Hitler is just Satan for atheists.
>>27201048
the problem is that the only man who would EVER use the term "toxic masculinity" is unmanly-- they use it because they're afraid to be a man, like >>27201074 . they think that they should be able to be any way they want to be and still be considered manly, which completely undermines the virtue of being manly.
by the way, to the second anon: just because people have different opinions about defining something doesn't mean that there is no true definition. that's literally the basis for any science or rational inquiry.
>>27199059
Masculinity, as it is known, is toxic in the sense that society has less and less need for the aggressiveness that correlates with masculine/hyper-masculine individuals. As Western society progresses, traits that are often associated with masculinity often become less and less valuable, aside from attracting whores.
To put it in a different light, as society becomes more feminine and docile, masculinity becomes "toxic." If/when western civilization goes bottom-up, masculinity will reign supreme again, because in an unstructured world a masculine mindset offers the greatest chance at survival and prosperity.
>>27200900
>it means being a civilized human being who cares about his society, culture, and responsibility for his actions.... A man should be as cultured as he is strong, nobility is heart's home, and that's how it should be.
This post. Right here. This guy gets it. Let this post be your guide.
Also, there is an article by feminist author Julie Nelson that goes over similar things, called Husbandry: A Reclamation of Masculine Responsibility for Care. I saw her present it at a conference last year and talked a bit to her about it; she seems very keen on creating the kind of masculinity you speak of. She doesn't fully express her whole view in the article, and she seems to be changing and developing her view constantly, and leaving behind the 'typical' feminist view of masculinity as inherently bad. She got some crap for this from other feminists, but she stood her ground. Article avalible here: http://cje.oxfordjournals.org/content/40/1/1.full
>>27199059
The phrase "toxic masculinity" doesn't say that masculinity is toxic. It refers to harmful personality traits traditionally associated with masculinity.
The most obvious is how men are taught to not want to find self-help. Men are far less likely than women to discuss their problems with friends, therapists, or even doctors, and this has pretty serious consequences.
Another toxic aspect of traditional masculinity is how men are expected to not show emotion. It's fine to expect stoicism in some circumstances, but teaching boys that they shouldn't express what they feel leads to depression and pent-up emotion that can explode dangerously.
>>27201089
>thread full of intelligent discussion about masculinity
>OH MY GOD YOU GUYS ARE A BUNCH OF RETARDS HAHA WOW DID YOU KNOW YOU ALL ACTUALLY HAVE AUTISM?
fuck off
>>27199223
There's nothing toxic about the phrase man up. What's toxic is that the usual understanding and respect given to men who were willing to sacrifice has been destroyed.
Men need to work hard and smother internal emotional issues to accomplish things. Society needs that. And I think men are happiest when they're needed. Arleast I am.
>>27201137
Implying that a man isn't a man because he isn't manly is sexist and bigoted. It's the same thing as saying a woman can't be a woman if she isn't super feminine.
Guys.
"Toxic Masculinity" and "Masculinity" are different things.
Toxic Masculinity includes stuff like being sexually aggressive, never showing any emotion, never crying, beating each other up, peacocking, etc.
But all of the following are also considered masculine: Purposefulness, independence, self-confidence, self-reliance, adventurous, assertiveness, self-discipline, determination, endurance, leadership skills, courage, loyalty, persistence, decisiveness, rationality, inventiveness, ambitious, dependability, provider, worldly view.
>>27201058
They're both ironic edge lords
Dude race lmao
Who cares
>>27200107
I agree it's a double standard, but that doesn't mean the problems aren't real.
Some feminists do discuss toxic femininity, though.
>>27201137
Maybe that's the problem. We complain about "Chad" on this site all the time, about the unfair standards and how gender roles fuck us over. People here are suicidal as fuck. They feel that life is going nowhere. But when it comes to actually talk about it we refuse to do it - 'cause that would be "unmanly". The obsession with being "manly" controls us so much that we'll shoot ourselves in the foot, reject the very debate we're demanded for years, because we're scared we'll seem unmanly. Pathetic, really. But mostly sad.
>>27199059
Just a Reminder this "cuck" has a hotter girlfriend than any of you will ever have.
Have a good day :^)
>>27201154
But all of this bullshit is clearly just projection m8, because nobody has ever told me in my entire life that I shouldn't be able to show my emotions, nor any male friend I know.
This is just feminist talking points about masculinity and it's not doing anyone any favors.
I will also mention the fact that there is a difference between rationally communicating your feelings(i.e being assertive and saying stop if someone is treating you like shit), and bawling like a woman who has been out drinking for hours upon hours.
>>27199059
>lol, this is a typical liberal
Those people are not liberals; they're insufferable authoritarian jackasses masquerading as liberals. They do not support human rights; they appropriate humans rights causes to draw attention to themselves.
Their entire sense of self-worth is dependent on playing the victim card. "But I'm a victim! I don't have to work hard like everybody else!"
They actually have a lot more in common with /pol/ than the liberals.
>>27201177
>smother internal emotional issues
I think that's what leads to higher suicide rates/alcoholism rates. I don't think being over emotional is productive but not dealing with it seems to be pretty bad.
>>27201154
>Men are far less likely than women to discuss their problems with friends, therapists, or even doctors, and this has pretty serious consequences.
a sweeping generalization. men talk about problems all of the time with friends. if you're saying that you've got some statistics proving that fewer men go see therapists, and this is supposed to prove that men don't talk about problems, then you are assuming that therapy as an institution is absolutely necessary for all
>Another toxic aspect of traditional masculinity is how men are expected to not show emotion.
no, they're expected not to be crippled by their emotion: fear, for example. hence the phrase "man up".
>>27201181
isn't that the idea of distinguishing gender and sex in the first place? that it supposedly frees people to be a womanly man or a manly woman?
also, you can fuck off to whatever hugbox you came from if you're gonna cry bigotry on fucking /r9k/ of all places.
>>27199223
NO. FUCK OFF.
This is the epitome of backwards feminine thinking.
>instead of finding a solution to the problem, let's pretend it's not a problem! You can be whatever you want to be!
Women, and life in general, demand that men have masculine traits. If you don't have them, then you're going to suffer for it. Sometimes the truth is depressing.
>>27201205
>Some feminists do discuss toxic femininity, though.
'Female chauvinist pigs' by Ariel Levy was good on this. She attacks even her own previously held views. Good reading.
>>27201207
no, people who are hopeless on /r9k/ are fucking themselves over. you can't blame that on abstract ghosts like social standards. because being a man implies responsibility in the first place.
>>27199223
I disagree somewhat. Positive masculine traits should be encouraged, just not in a way that is unproductive. Don't punish boys for crying but teach them that crying solves nothing in the end. That's all. Eventually they skip crying, complaining and passive-aggression altogether.
And if you don't want to conform to your society's gender role, fine. Nobody should make you. But you can't make people accept you or like you, some people don't realize that.
But let's be real, women are the ones who do the most damage from telling men to man up (lack-of-masculinity shaming?) At least men understand being a man, and that you just can't deal sometimes.
Also, social justice shits are starting to think that "toxic masculinity" means that masculinity is categorically toxic, rather than there being a type of masculinity that is beneficial and one that is detrimental.
>>27200906
Why should this be the case?
>>27201268
Yeah, everyone knows the world is a terrible place to live. That's why it's important to try to make it better. It's called progress and without it we'd just be a bunch of fuckin savages out on the plains of africa right now.
Reading through this thread, I see just how many SJW have infiltrated 4chan.
>>27201227
Well, you're lucky as shit. My dad laughed at me for crying about a girl when I was 16.
>>27201373
Kids these days, am I right anon?
You can't fight it dude it's happening whether you like it or not.
>>27201142
But we never get away from the Savannah... Hypermasculine men raised in dysfunctional settings may wind up in prison... if they're raised in a wealthy family with healthy male role models, they might wind up running the country.
>>27201154
>>27201227
This is a complex issue.
I think men have fewer outlets now. I was absolutely taught to "man up" and forced to bottle things up (even happiness or excitement). And on top of that, forced to bear adult responsibilities and be an emotional sponge for my unbalanced mother.
I was also not allowed to spend time with friends, go with them on trips, or otherwise get out of that environment and be with my peers.
A lot of my male friends from healthier families were raised to be stoic, but they also had a place to go when things got hard. Mom would let them cry and help put them back together. They could talk things out with their friends. Their dads supported them and helped them improve instead of just raining hellfire on them for not measuring up.
>>27201181
It's true though. It's not PC, but a woman who obsesses over shoes and rides the carousel until she either lands a provider or becomes a cat lady isn't a woman. She's just a "chick".
>>27201212
I doubt that
Got proof?
>>27199223
no, its not bad
it separates naturally the weak from the strong
its actually supposed to be science
to bad im on the short end of the stick, for i am not one of the strong
>>27201212
Ever hear of AMOG?
>>27201184
Good post
>>27201285
Read this ages ago and it's awesome. DESU it's a shame that /r9k/ is generally so in the dark about feminist theory. There are a lot of legitimate critiques to be made of the feminist movement, but most posters here just go for the cheap ones.
>>27201431
>I was absolutely taught to "man up" and forced to bottle things up (even happiness or excitement). And on top of that, forced to bear adult responsibilities and be an emotional sponge for my unbalanced mother.
Yes, but an anecdote about having a dysfunctional family life is not the standard for how gender roles function in society, hence why I called it projection.
Most people are not raised in a home where they get beaten by their father for crying over a breakup when they're a teen.
>>27199223
Those things are only harmful to men if they lead to destructive behavior.
>>27201373
4chan was never a hugbox. Leftwing posters have been a big part of this site since the 2000s.
>>27199223
faggot identified
feminism
masculinity isn't toxic, feminism says it toxic
>>27201184
>being sexually aggressive, never showing any emotion, never crying, beating each other up, peacocking, etc.
Which are all traits that make women wet between their legs, and his enemies dead on the battlefield.
You cannot have your cake and eat it too.
>>27201587
Artificial wombs and robot soldiers are coming anon, traditional masculinity is quickly becoming obsolete.
>>27201617
By the time the traits he mentioned become deprecated, so will all of humanity.
>>27201231
I think it be uptick in suicide has a lot more to do with the lack of fufuilling or meaningful or at the very least decent paying jobs.
Certainly men can deal with emotions instead of ignoring them utterly. But it's better and more effective to deal with a bad day by working hard and focusing mostly on it. Wallowing in self pity or feeling bad doesn't really seem useful.
I think masculinity is a lot about what you do and how you are. Less about how you feel. Taking away a man's job, his wife and kids and telling him he's useless is what breaks a man.
>>27201485
You're right, I got a little carried away with the personal anecdote.
My more general point was that men often are held to the same expectations for performance, but are not allowed the release valves. It is sexist for men to have things that only men do together, but it is empowering and acceptable for women to invade male spaces and practice gendered "you go grrrl" nepotism.
All the expectations, none of the perks.
>>27201144
desu your article sounds like "building a better beta". A husband isn't just a "masculine caretaker"--he's the head of the household, with all the responsibility and perks that come with that.
And of course, her "totes OC donut steal" theory of masculinity still has to be labeled "feminist", because if it isn't explicitly centered around women and their needs, it must be evil and backwards.
It might not be as directly misandrist as some feminist theory, but it is still a woman telling men how to be men.
>>27201476
Glad someone liked it. I used to be really anti-feminist, but then I read her book and I was like "damn, she hates feminists as much as I do... but she's a feminist too?". I hadn't realised before then there where different schools and MAJOR disagreements, I just lumped them all together like /r9k/ does now.
>>27201520
I've been here since the start and I'm a marxist feminist. Fuck tumblr, this place is the real deal. I want to be challenged, not hugboxed.
>>27201581
Actually read the thread: as has been established "masculinity" and "toxic masculinity" are seperate things. One could even claim they're opposites.
>>27201617
>VR waifus and artificial wombs are coming--women are quickly becoming obsolete.
The difference is that women crave male attention... they are less able to make do with mere masturbation.
>Artificial wombs and robot soldiers are coming anon, traditional masculinity is quickly becoming obsolete.
Traditional masculinity will never be obsolete as long as there are people that want to harm others, and someone needing to defend them.
>>27201686
>It is sexist for men to have things that only men do together, but it is empowering and acceptable for women to invade male spaces and practice gendered "you go grrrl" nepotism.
I agree. And that's retarded.
A friend of mine actually commented on this a while ago by saying that a gym is really the only place that it is legitimate to be masculine without inducing the ire of womenhood. Unfortunately though, gyms are usually populated by actual faggots.
>>27201617
Artificial wombs don't satisfy the need to feel desired/desirable. How will you override millions of years of evolution to convince women that weak, soft, demure manlets are just as sexy as big, strong tallfags?
>>27201673
>Taking away a man's job, his wife and kids and telling him he's useless is what breaks a man.
This is only the case if he's told that he needs these things. The comfy NEET is a good example of the new man, secure in his own personal identity independent of others expectations.
>>27201712
>"masculinity" and "toxic masculinity" are seperate things. One could even claim they're opposites.
They're two sides of a goalpost that you can move around to suit the feminine imperative.
Much like "feminism" is a vague umbrella used to cover anything from radical misandry to women saying "I would rather you not cut up my vagina and stone me to death for being raped".
>>27201686
>It is sexist for men to have things that only men do together
no it's not
>>27199223
The main problem is that the meanings of these phrases are being twisted by modern feminazi's
>man up
A pun to grow up in respect to the male gender.
>grow a pair
Basically saying "be fearless". Women don't have balls that someone can walk up to them and kick, and be in debilitating pain. Men do.
>stop being a pussy
Is said to both males and females because it is a vulgar way of saying "don't be a scaredy cat" specifically referencing cats, not women and not vaginas.
Anyone who gets offended with this stuff haven't taken time to think about what it might mean. That's why you don't get angry if someone says man up, you take it as advice or a compliment, they believe you can be better than you are now.
>>27201778
I disagree. That's just rationalizing refusing to compete in an unfair job market in a society that's shutting men out. Men are made to work and be useful. We're like dogs. We love to serve and compete and play. You can be not miserable as a neat until you get lonely or the walla close in but you'll never feel satisfied or complete until you do things and accomplish.
In that metaphor women are more like cats.
>>27201771
>How will you override millions of years of evolution
With technology and a progressive society same as ever until people are just people and gender is just something you wear like a fashion statement, if at all.
Probably not in this lifetime but that's where we're going no question about it.
>>27201778
And also ignored by society and absolutely powerless economically... a literal parasite.
If we don't figure out a way to reward men for having a stake in society, the "new man" will be the old fashioned player.
>gives lipservice to whatever faggot social order exists to blend in
>in control of his own reproduction
>economically self reliant if not independently
>in control of his own reproduction
>unwilling to share resources with a woman
>unwilling to let any single woman monopolize his time or sexuality
>>27201799
I should have said "it's considered sexist".
If there is a club, or a bar, or an organization, or a hunting party ANYWHERE that is just for men, you can bet there is a woman either trying to get in, or trying to convince a man that he shouldn't participate.
>>27201686
It's a woman who takes misadrist tendencies in feminism seriously enough to change her own views because of it. Of course she labels it feminism and introduces it carefully; she's trying to change the feminist discourse from the inside, not get kicked out of it. She caught enough crap for just this minor thing. And like I said, she's in the process of revaluating and reconsidering a lot of things: the article is carefully worded in order to pass feminist scrutiny but when talking to her she seemed more interested in helping men empower themselves. To rediscoved the positive aspects of masculinity, of being "alpha", that this post mentioned >>27200900. To not feel that being a "Chad", or any other variety of guido, is the only way to avoid being "beta".
Don't like that a woman is doing it? Great, then the plan is already working since a man is interested in reclaiming masculinity for himself. I just feel very strongly that true manliness lies more in nobility and strenght (of body but also mind and will) and not being a d-bag.
>>27201587
But that's part of the problem. We measure our manliness based on how women react, which is kind of insecure. We let them be the judges of our manliness. But the thing is, women like men who display certain qualities often REGARDLESS of how they display them. This is why prisoners get women interested in them.
It's our duty to display these manly traits in as positive a way as possible. Being an asshat shouldn't be the only way to be "alpha", and doing good things shouldn't automatically make one a "beta".
>>27199059
Masculinity is what makes men better than women therefore it is toxic to feminists
>>27201961
>I'm an idiot: the post
>>27200146
YOU'RE A WHITE MALE
>>27201712
I get the impression that /r9k/ is the most Marxist board after /lit/ and /his/
>>27201928
>We measure our manliness based on how women react, which is kind of insecure.
No it's not, because sexual fitness is everything we care about, because it gives us access to pussy and intimacy at the expense of other men.
There is a reason why a man who fucks a lot of women is considered a stud, and that's because it says something positive about him, since every man knows that, as a man, you need certain qualities to attract women.
>>27201797
>They're two sides of a goalpost that you can move around to suit the feminine imperative.
Which is why we lads need to reclaim that discourse and decide for ourselves what i means "to be a man". This is not accomplished by rejecting anything remotely associated with feminism, such as refusing to discuss "toxic masculinity" because feminists have touched the term. Nor is it accomplished by calling anyone trying to build a positive manliness a "cuck" or "beta"; that just adds to the idea that only what women like and who they desire should be the measure of manliness; that makes us slaves to women's desires rather than the masters of ourselves.
>>27201977
Explain, dipshit
>>27200146
these people need to be gassed, and I'm not even Hitler
>>27201997
>2016
>having the audacity to be a white male out in public
he was asking for trouble to be honest
>>27201889
We shall see. Given total control over their sexual characteristics, I suspect you would see more people choosing the extremes. Accentuating feminine sexuality to be Marilyn Monroe, or pumping up their T and masculine neurological structure to out alpha George Clooney.
Androgynes might have a niche because they're engaging to either gender, but a big muscly man with a vagina or a sexy woman with a beard and twenty inch biceps is not going to be regarded as anything other than a freak.
>>27202031
We already know what it is to be a man.
>>27201999
It really isn't, which is why I am here. I figure if I can make a point come across here, I've made a pretty decent argument. I'd say it's the least marxist/leftist board after /pol/, but unlike /pol/ it's still relatively sane.
>>27202008
You misunderstand, I'm not saying we shouldn't value "studness" and success with women. I'm saying we should recognise that it's a poor measurement of manliness on it's own. This is because women will like anyone who is "alpha", regardless if he's an imprisoned murderer or a firefighter. I'm just saying we should try to pick the "firefighter" route of getting chicks - being alpha in positive ways. The fact that a murderer gets pussy does not validate his actions; his ability to score alone does not make him "right". If getting women is the only thing that matters, society crumbles as we might as well all be thugs.
I've never felt "masculine" or "feminine" myself. I am male, but I have always just lived life as I see it, not defined by anything that is expected of me. I do sometimes see "toxic" masculinity though. For instance, my father, when criticized or legitimately argued with (by me or my mother) will immediately resort to getting angry and refusing to take any of it. But I always considered that more of a personal pride thing than a manhood thing.
Personally I place little value in self-worth, assertiveness, or striving to be "honorable." I think that as long as you can do (or at least try to do) a thing, it doesn't matter if you believe you can. I'm pretty against feeling good about yourself in general, honestly. I think if you take pride in things and think you are good at things then that is just another chance to be proven wrong by someone. I also hardly ever feel the need to "assert" myself or dominate someone socially (not that I particularly have those abilities). Usually it is not very practical and its more useful to take no stance rather than showing what you believe in. That said, I don't really believe in anything in any facet of life so there's never much need in my case. As for honor and integrity, I would lie, cheat, steal, and kill if I knew I could get away with it. As stands, I get by doing as little work as possible (unless it is something that genuinely interests me), lie all the time to avoid trouble/gain things, and when someone wrongs me I stealthily take revenge (egging a house, stealing an Xbox controller at a party, etc.)
I look out for myself. I would do that even if I was a girl, probably. I'm really not sure how much my gender really affects my mindset. Not really something I have thought much about before. I have never felt the need to "man up." I think it's just important not to be a bitch about things. Not in a feminine way, I guess, but for me the word bitch just means petty and weak, that kinda thing. Anyone can be a bitch.
Women think masculinity is toxic and tell that to the cucks who listen to them who parrot their beliefs in hopes of looking tolerant and lay with one of the activist girls.
>>27202135
>We already know what it is to be a man.
But this thread is evidence that we disagree. And that we know what it currently is doesn't mean we can't change it. And simply knowing does not mean controlling the discourse.
>>27200146
>OOOOOH HE'S WHITE OOOOOOH HE'S WHITE
>WE'RE NOT RACIST YOU ARE
kek
>>27202143
>The fact that a murderer gets pussy does not validate his actions; his ability to score alone does not make him "right".
The problem is, it kind of does in the grand scheme of things, especially if he gets children, because it means he will keep those Chad and psychopath genes within humanity's gene pool.
The fact that women are attracted to psychopathic criminals, is a problem with women, not men as far as I can see, considering they are the gatekeepers of sex in all instances.
>>27201712
>Actually read the thread
I like to jump into the thread, state my opinion, shitpost elsewhere on another board, and then return and read only the replies to my comment.
>>27202152
Goddamn I hate people like you. You slimy worm of a person.
>>27200834
As an american I can tell you that while some people assure me they are a thing, I have yet to feel their sting.
>>27202143
It's easy to encourage the positive aspects you're talking about.
Reward them. We stopped doing that, and now we're asking "where did all the real men go?"
>>27202152
>I think it's just important not to be a bitch about things.
>I would lie, cheat, steal, and kill if I knew I could get away with it
>steal x-box controller when someone hurts my fee-fees
You're a confused little boy. Your life is likely rather sad and empty.
>>27202221
Certainly, women perpatuate the problem by selecting these men as mates. But just blamig them and letting it happen will lead to exactly what you say: those psycho genes stay in our gene pool while the good genes of the firefighter may or may not. We as men have to do something more than just complain and blame the women. Isn't it partly our fault? That they, looking for strenght, find it just in thugs, while every good guy is weak to the point that "good guy" has become synonymous with "weak". Shouldn't we at least provide an alternative, a strong but decent man, before we just flip womankind off? Pic related. Bring back the irl paladins.
>>27202247
At least you're honest about it. Good on you, anon.
>>27202427
That's not being a bitch, though. That's giving someone what's coming to them.
>>27202381
It's okay, I probably hate people like you too
>>27202427
>It's easy to encourage the positive aspects you're talking about.
>Reward them. We stopped doing that, and now we're asking "where did all the real men go?"
Exactly. This is part of my point. And women are partly responsible for this because they reward the "toxic" bullshit. The question is how we change it, how WE take responsibility for it and NOT just blame women because "bu-hu they just want to fuck the bad boys and not nice guys like meeee!" - that just doesn't seem the manly thing to do, even if it's technically correct. Seems a "manly" thing to do is work to change it.
>>27200544
fuck off anita
>>27200612
Sorry, wrong image. This was what I meant.
>>27202463
>Shouldn't we at least provide an alternative
Many, many many men do. I mean, by and large, if you meet a guy on the street, he is probably not a bad guy. He won't punch you out or steal your wallet. He probably has a job, and if he has a family, he tries to do well for them as much as his circumstances allow.
Meanwhile, who do we idolize?
>pro athletes who literally get away with murder
>businessmen who take advantage of rentseeking instead of competing in the free market
>childish movie stars with brigades of lawyers to clean up their messes
>>27202540
Well, one way is to not give women what they want. Which is usually some kind of committed relationship that gives them access to your resources and status.
>focus on your career and friends
>date multiple women, and make it clear that you are not a one woman man
>never sign a marriage contract
>if possible, arrange it so that no woman has the right to take away your children
If she doesn't want to take your name and submit to your authority in the home, she is just a fuckfriend.
>>27199223
Kill yourself SJW scum.
>>27200146
wtf am i watching
If anything, this would make me for trump and against democrats/liberals
>>27202680
>Many, many many men do
Not enough it seems, when even anti-feminists talk about a crisis of masculinity. We also need to take a stand against the kind of crap you bring up.
>If she doesn't want to take your name and submit to your authority in the home, she is just a fuckfriend.
I agree with everything else, but personally I don't want authority over another person (regardless of gender), but I do wish to be sovereign and not have anyone else control me either. It is... difficult in a relationship, as women have been socialised to want to control men.
"Toxic masculinity" is the most fucking ridiculous thing I ever heard
Next time there is a horrific school shooting, let's wait and see if everyone who knew the perpetrator says "Oh yeah, him? Really masculine guy. Played a lot of sports. Very outgoing. You couldn't get a word in around him. Very virile"
The only masculine thing these guys usually do is fire a gun.
But I can sort of see how they can arrive at that conclusion. Masculinity FEELS like it could be a problem. You FEEL that there must be something wrong with masculinity.
And, as we all know, in this day and age, feelings make a great substitute for facts.
>>27199223
But look at dads and older generations. Look how manly, brave, indestructible they are. They don't even complain about how they were raised. Men are getting more and more feminine, through time. Masculinity is very important, the less masculine will always get cucked.
>>27202924
>But look at dads and older generations. Look how manly, brave, indestructible they are.
That's a real hoot.
>>27200924
Bachelors in political science, won't say what uni
But yes, whilst everyone else thinks it's bait, they don't realise the benefits to men that come from studying the subject. Whilst it looks at why men generally commit more violent crime, it also shows men in a positive light, as victims themselves of a system that promotes a refusal to engage with mental health services and an image of what has come to be referred to as "Chad" here, when many men realistically cannot do so and are relegated to the outskirts of society as a result
>>27202903
That's the whole point, though. That they AREN'T actually masculine, and turn to what they perceive to be hyper-masculine behaviour (such as firing a gun and taking bloody vengence upon their enemies) in order to compensate. REAL masculine traits can be POSITIVE and should be encouraged. "Toxic" masculinity is not masculinity any more than "toxic" food is food - the word "toxic" is a qualifer to show that an usually good or neutral thing has gone bad.
>>27200787
Well I'm approaching it from an angle than hasn't been done before and my dissertation tutor is putting in a recommendation that it be published when it's done so yes I would say it's an original topic friend
>>27202710
good level-headed response to a dissenting opinion
>>27202846
Men are wising up to the fact that trying to be a good guy isn't worthwhile. Focusing on your selfish pleasures or just keeping your head down and playing video games to pass the time might not be good for society, but one can hardly blame men who don't crucify themselves to play the "good man"
>harsher penalties if you fuck up and break the law
>overworked so that family or civic life is compromised
>career can be ruined on a woman's whim
>family, home, and financial security can be taken away on a woman's whim
>told by mass media that he's got too much influence in society, and that he should step back so that affirmative action can ruin what took his ancestors centuries to build
>authority over another person
She can leave whenever she wants. But she'll be leaving the money, the house, the kids and anything else that belongs to me.
Might sound harsh, but right now, the reverse is true. The mother is the de facto center of the family, and if she wants to confiscate the fruit of a man's labor, he is supposed to just go along with it.
>>27202924
A few people might have grandfathers like that. Dad's? Not likely.
>robots cry about losing out to Chad
>cry when people try and destroy the system that maintains chad
>>27199223
The tone of those phrases is toxic, but the idea behind them is anything but.
How does "have courage" sound to you? It's a lot more positive, but the idea is the same.
>>27203077
Losing yourself to emotion sounds like a hyper-feminine quality to me.
Being quiet, submissive and letting yourself get walked all over sound like hyper-feminine qualities.
So why isn't anyone complaining about toxic femininity?
Because that's what seems to be causing all these problems
>>27203252
That's the thing man.
Destroying Chad and the systems that create him isn't going to make women love robots.
It's just going to put the few Chads left at a higher premium.
Like all things it was a movement that started out with good intentions but got hijacked and taken over by extremists. Think BLM.
Basically it means boys have a certain expectation from society. You're not supposed to show emotion, you're supposed to keep problems in, you're supposed to react with anger, get in fights, do other destructive shit associated with manhood.
You don't have to do those things. Especially in this day and age. It's okay to show your emotions and not fight and to cry once in a---ahhahahahahha i can't take it any longer. You faggots need to just be yourself and stop being a bunch of crying little shits. Wahwahwah I need help standing up for myself. Man the fuck up you homos.
>>27200146
why are amerifats so loud.
>>27201928
>We measure our manliness based on how women react, which is kind of insecure
This is odd. I think it represents the erosion of masculinity. Men used to measure their masculinity against other men. That way masculinity wasn't just about peacocking it was about achievement.
Can we start in a vacuum and build our gender roles not on the past or the present?
>tfw feminine facial features but prominent "male" traits like aggression, deep voice, assertive/compulsive
its hell
nobody takes me fucking seriously because i look like a giant bitch
>>27203443
Yeah but who in a gender studies faculty is going to blame school shootings on the feminization of boys?
>>27199059
What video is that still from?
>>27204425
Never mind I found itFuck the robot
>>27203443
You missed the point again. Being held to the expectation of being masculine leads to the emotional breakdown. Clearly the culture has a bar for masculinity that is too high for a lot of guys to reach.
>>27203252
Feminists aren't destroying the system that maintains Chad. They are making it easier for him. When they demonize masculinity they only make betas more afraid to be masculine. As a result the few men who are naturally highly masculine have little competition for women.
>>27204530
One only has to look at differences in masculinity across cultures to see that masculinity isn't really a fixed thing.
>>27204291
Simply put... no.
It might sound nice if you have shit for brains, but that's 1984 levels of social engineering. You're talking about erasing systems that mostly work just so you can eliminate some unhappy edge cases, and introduce a system that's totally untested, and probably incompatible with our biology.
>this airplane doesn't fly as fast or as high as I'd like
>let's scrap the whole design and just design a plane that looks like a turtle!
>>27199223
It is only bad when you demonize being a man and drive men out of their spaces such as video games and comics and sports. With out a proper way to express masculinity in a society that hates anyone who displays those traits, men resort to violence on a society that has rejected them down to who they are as human beings
>>27204748
When most women and a large minority of men are limited in their career and interpersonal aspirations by gender roles...I don't think saying it "mostly works" is even close to true.
To the larger point, scrapping gender roles and starting over makes no sense, but major transformations aren't at all unprecedented.
>>27200146
I don't particuarly like Trump and aren't voting for him, but just because you hold an opinion, doesn't mean that everyone else has that opinion. Responding by saying "are you kidding me!?" is dumb.
>>27200874
>Blacks aren't driven by the desire to be as black as humanly possible; their value as humans isn't judged by how "black" their behaviour is
have you never heard the phrase Uncle Tom?
>>27203626
Well, more importantly, "Chad" is all relative, "Chad" is just the top n% of males. You can never not have Chad, you can just change what he looks like.
>>27204603
Where did i say it was fixed?
>>27204481
The emotional breakdown is caused by a lack or reward and release that used to come with the masculine role. The bar isn't higher anymore there's just a pit underneath it.
God this board is so fucking stupid that they don't even understand that "toxic masculinity" is exactly what you've been bitching about for fucking years. That you're being marginalized as a man because you don't fit the stereotypical standards of what interests are acceptable, how to act, how to dress, that you're less of a man because you're not constantly trying your hardest to be a brainless Chad who just follows whatever it is to be expected.
You guys are so far gone with your obsession with feminists and your influence from the retarded teenagers on /pol/ that you automatically get angry about the issue of "toxic masculinity" that is a major men's issue.
"Hurr durr, man up bro."
Fuck off.
I'm a man because I have a cock and balls. Not because I'm interested in fucking sports and cars.
>>27200906
The whole "Life's tough and no one will hand you anything" lecture a blanket response and even to some people a lie (depending on so many factors in your life), but that's not my issue with that lecture, it's the fact we're constantly reminded everyday how tough life is. I don't need to reminded the millionth time, I just want some sympathy, emotional understanding, someone I know who has my back so I wouldn't have to constantly bottle up my emotional pain and end up in therapy
>>27205349
>Where did i say it was fixed?
>the few men who are naturally highly masculine have little competition for women
You pretend that there was must always be a spectrum of masculinity that determines sexual desirability. That is exactly what feminists want to destroy.
>The emotional breakdown is caused by a lack or reward and release that used to come with the masculine role. The bar isn't higher anymore there's just a pit underneath it.
I think the history shows that the bar for societal validation (or non-humiliation) of one's masculinity has been raised. It's not like all men of previous generations were athletic, loud, good with women and so on. What has changed is that both women and men have been taught to expect all men to have hypermasculine behaviour.
>>27201107
If toxic masculinity is healthy behavior from your point then why do so many robot bitch about Chads?
>>27199223
You should probably man up and stop being a pussy.
>>27205596
Because they aren't Chad. Shutting yourself away indoors and bitching about society not catering to you like robots do is not healthy behavior.
>>27205596
Chad is the ideal sexually free man, and defined by his position to walk all over betas. Conservatives give no thought to how shitty this arrangement is, and aspire to Chad's position instead of trying to change a broken system.
>>27201673
This.
People don't get that women are human beings, while men are human doings.
From time immemorial, women have had intrinsic value because of their ability to bear children. We all know this. 1000 men, 1 woman = we're fucked. 1000 women, 1 man = we're probably fine.
Thus, men have to DO things in order to negate their disposablity. Competition, rules around those competitions, and achievements. This is how it's been done. Men strictly enforce this behavior as it's how they collectively don't become useless.
This.Is.Our.Nature.
It's not going anywhere. Branding it toxic is utterly retarded. It's what makes the world go round. Women don't do it, because they don't have to. They never have. It's why Hitch wrote the article about women not being funny. They aren't because they've never needed to be. Men are the way they are because it they weren't, they'd be dead and society wouldn't have been built.
>>27199223
Ita funny how women caused toxic masculinity and are the only ones complaining about it.
Good masculinity is getting a job, carrying your own weight, not throwing tantrums over minor shit, defending your loved ones, etc
Toxic masculinity is when you go out of way to bother, hurt, or annoy someone who's not bothering you
>>27203252
but they want to get rid of the traditional woman as well as the traditional man
virginity is a social construct designed by the patriarchy to shame women for being sexual after all
>>27206426
What's so great about the traditional woman?
>>27206463
They actually raise their children.
>>27206501
I think the decline of parenting is primarily an economic issue at this point.
Yes, part of "womens' liberation" is widely considered to be working instead of staying home with the children. At the same time, though, birthrates declined. Surveys indicate that parents (men and women) wish they could have more time with their children.
So the people still having children want to raise them, but can't for economic reasons. When "traditional women" existed, having a family on one income was the norm, not a rare privilege.
>>27205543
I was talking about masculinity in Western culture you dip.
>women and men have been taught to expect all men to have hypermasculine behaviour.
This flies in the face of feminist social engineering. You could be right - I agree that masculinity has been marginalized to boisterousness and muscles. However I think that that simplification makes it easier to attain. Any douche can get buff and act like they're the shit. Being assertive, independent, conscientious, industrious and virile require much more personal quality. The masculine archetype of today is a fucking ken doll in comparison.
>>27200612
Is it wrong that I imagined this between two boysand prefer it that way?
>>27206501
If I ever found a sweet gentle innocent virgin gf, I would never get her pregnant because women turn to shit once they have kids.
>>27199059
It's the only thing capable of keeping niggers and SJWs in line.
>>27206686
I was trying to point out that seeing the different standards of masculinity worldwide being widely supplanted by the contemporary Western one is a good demonstration that masculinity can radically change, and can function in different ways.
>Any douche can get buff and act like they're the shit
I suppose it is more complex than universally "raising the bar". It still causes issues for men who wouldn't have been emasculated by previous standards. It might be easy, in theory, to emulate the qualities of the current media's masculine archetype, but can require rejecting inherent parts of one's personality.
The personal qualities you mentioned have been and can be expressed in many different ways. When a guy naturally expresses masculinity in a more reserved, intellectual way (as one example), he can see historical figures like Newton or Lincoln for whom that was valid, but he is judged by his peers using today's version of masculinity, which may be superficial on the whole, but is contradictory to his personality.
>>27207178
Frankly, I don't think masculinity in one part of the world is much different than in the next. Men's roles in antiquity the world over have been shaped by similar demands - hard labor, defense of women, children and property and enforcement of rules.
I agree on how narrow modern masculinity is defined. There used to be many bars and a man would have to reach any of them to be deemed worthy by society. Now there's one bar. If you don't reach it you're fucked - which is why I call it a pit.
>>27201036
Trump isn't that Pro-Isreal compared to other candidates though.
>>27199223
>year 2016 of our Lord
>not wanting to be manly man
>>27199059
>mfw black masculinity is the most toxic of all
>>27200146
The trump guy has a weird kind of haircut. Honestly, it would probably look better if he just buzzed the whole thing instead of leaving that extra tuft at the front longer. Idk, maybe it's just me.
