![am_140326_gun_suicide_silhouette_800x600[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/rTlMZdR.jpg "am_140326_gun_suicide_silhouette_800x600[1].jpg")
Why does society try to turn people away from sucide?
Death seems to be the ultimate and easiest release from life, depressed or not.
Seems all selfish to me desu
>>26565366
>Why does society try to turn people away from sucide?
some kind of survival mechanism or something, I guess.
society wouldn't function properly if we all just decided to hang ourselves en masse
>>26565407
yeah but not everyone is depressed, and not everyone who's depress will actually kill themselves. Why not let those who want to do it?
>>26565366
Yes, it's selfish.
And?
>>26565438
because most humans care about each other.
They need worker bees and taxpayers, not more bodies piling up in the morgue to give the normies ideas of escape desu
Avert thee eyes , consume and gib money as they say
Because death is scary and people don't like letting go. Have you ever seen something die? Shit is weird and eerie. A lot of people think it's better to stick with safe and familiar territory, like the routine of living.
Also you can get into harebrained and ultimately unprovable (but still feasible) sociological shit like upper class needs slaves, suicide contagions and etc.
>>26565462
If I cared about someone, would I want them to suffer? The dead can't be sad. I actually made this thread because of a friend who I seriously care about who plans to seriously kill themself. My message has always been "no", because I don't want to lose them. But after thinking about it for a while I ask myself: aren't I being selfish? Why stop them?
A non-suicidal person views the issue with the assumption that being alive is good, or at least preferable to not being alive. So killing yourself is something bad, it's sad because to a non-suicidal person you're giving up something beautiful or something, it is simply something that causes them pain to witness as a result of their own moralistic view of life.
If you see it as something else, your perspective is "warped", "wrong" or "defective" simply because it does not agree with theirs. It's the product of a disease, hence why normies love saying shit like "his depression killed him" or "it was his bipolar, he would never do this to me!", if you've ever noticed. They cannot fathom anyone legitimately disagreeing with their opinion that life is good, instead they MUST innately, in an "undamaged" state believe that life is good, but some external agent of some sort (depression or etc) is corrupting that view. It's the only way they can delude themselves into believing that their opinion on life is objectively true and it's the only way they can rationalize themselves out of noticing the sheer existential horror that surrounds them on a daily basis.
Why is all of this happening? Because nobody wants to be trapped in a grotesque meatmachine of constant slaughter and agony. So we pretend we aren't.
>>26565366
Fill your assigned, preordained purpose, cog.
>>26565727
Oh and btw I really hate this shit because it's just another facade that they throw up. Another way to disenfranchise voices of dissent and steal their agency away.
Nobody will listen to you even after you're dead.
BECAUSE LIFE IS GREAT ANON. DON'T KILL YOURSELF. LIFE WILL BE FANTASTIC WHEN YOU STOP THINKING ABOUT SUICIDE
I'M GLAD I SAVED YOU FROM SUICIDE ANON BECAUSE LIFE IS SO GREAT ISN'T IT?! i REALLY DID YOU A SERVICE THERE
;)
Can't tax the dead (more than a few one-time fees).
>>26565366
mostly because people think its not okay because that normie that beat depression after one day got through it or because god said they'll go to hell.
its ridiculous though in the circumstance that they've been depressed for more than a year or so and that these people still prevent them from commiting suicide. Really thats just holding them down while they suffer and that seems highly unethical. They should still have the choice when no other treatment has helped alleviate the suffering but normies think its NEVER under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES okay to allow which causes unending suffering for these people.
>>26565848
OH AND I ALMOST FORGOT HERE'S YOUR HOSPITAL BILL BTW ;O
>>26565366
DUDE TRAVEL LMAO YOU WILL SEE HOW BEAUTIFUL THIS WORLD IS
I thought it was mostly a religious thing. Suicides go to hell?
Because that would mean that we (society) failed you
>>26566089
You, society! Why have you let us down?
>Ah don't kys anon, I'll be so sad if you do. Can't you see how it'll hurt me?
fucking nor miss really don't get it
>>26565980
>>26566029
If we're talking about Christianity, the Bible never really says suicide is a one-way ticket to damnation. I don't know how that idea caught on.
>>26566118
I never understood this
If it hurts them so much then they can just kill themselves too and the problem goes away entirely
>>26566122
Didn't they believe in cutting the heads off those who committed suicide in Medieval times as a punishment, because it would supposedly prevent them from entering the heavenly gates?
https://www.reddit.com/r/SanctionedSuicide/ is <---------- that way.
>>26566160
Never heard of that, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's true. Still, that's not really based on anything in the actual Bible.
Now that I think of it, I believe the Suicide=Hell thing came from Dante's Divine Comedy.
They want you to stay alive long enough for them to indoctrinate you back into permanent spiritual solitude
They need to put the blindfold back on or you might get way
>tfw friend asks you for a reason to continue living
>tfw can't think of one
>>26565366
The real answer is suicide makes people following the precepts of society insecure.
Objectively, suicide is the ultimate form of self empowerment. You are disobeying laws, social norms, and even your very nature as an animal. It is in itself a pure act of will, albeit a short lived one. In society like ours where conformity and obedience is paramount, and individual decisions are usually watered down to whatever a normie can afford to do on their vacation time, is it any wonder that a real act of self determination is defamed by people?
Just go on youtube and look at the chad/stacies telling you "its worth it" etc. All they do is pander to emotion, or tell you the old lines about how people who care for you will be devastated etc, as if somehow everyone in the world has someone who cares about them...
But these people dont actually give a shit about you, they are making those videos and saying those things to reinforce the control mechanisms their world view is based off of. Think about how fast this would all fall apart is suicide WASNT taboo and anyone was allowed to engage in it for any time for any reason? Society would fall apart in a matter of years.
I think we will soon reach that point, the worse global warming and the overall condition of the world gets. Meanwhile the chads and stacies will just keep insisting that "its ok bro" in order to make themselves feel better.
>>26565485
This is the correct answer to OP's question.
>>26566454
This is also the correct answer to OP's question.
Normalfags cannot stand the idea that other people can escape the hell that is life.
because people think others in society will stroke them off, its just one big stroking fest, trust me bro, don't tell anybody not even google, they've turned too. just try it google, best ways to kill yourself and bam, number one response is suicide prevention.
>>26565366
To make them feel good. They don't actually care about you. They just don't want someones death to be in their conscious.
>>26565366
nooo don't kill yourself
keep workin goy! you wanna be able to afford that new house and car right?
these taxes aren't gonna pay themselves
Do any of you robots find death scary? Personally, I don't. I don't really care if there is an afterlife or not.
>>26568266
>Do any of you robots find death scary?
No
>>26565366
because life is allways better down the road :^)
>>26568266
Death? Nah.
Pain, though? Fuck that noise. That's the only reason I bailed out of my sudoku attempt.
Protip: Trying to OD on caffeine pills is fucking excruciating.
I think if your life sucks and there's no hope in fixing it then suicide is an acceptable option. If you have severe clinical depression and you're immune to medication and therapy then suicide is one of your few options.
I have a feeling I'll commit suicide pretty soon.
>>26568266
Yes but not as scary as living
>>26565366
Self-preservation. A society can't exist if everyone kills themselves, so the act is dissuaded. Any act that would kill society when applied universally is dissuaded. Stealing, murder, etc.
It's your life though, it's not like they can arrest you for it.
>>26565366
Who will pay taxes to help all the neets and single mothers get a check if you kill yourself? This is the real reason they don't want you to kill yourself. Your parents don't want you to kill yourself because they don't want to see all those years they invested in you mean nothing in the end.
Because suicide is a problem for many people
It's a problem for the people who find your body, it's a problem for the people who have to make sure you weren't murdered, it's a problem for your family, it's a problem for everyone your family is even slightly close to.
It benefits exactly one person, and that person is gone anyway.
>>26568390
>Trying to OD on caffeine pills is fucking excruciating.
Jesus christ how is someone this retarded in an age where you can look everything up?
>>26565366
Because if all the people who saw all the suffering in life for what it is, only rich assholes would remain.
>>26568511
So then why don't the people who it's a problem for just kill themselves too?
Seems like that'd solve every problem ever
>>26568511
Definitely not the brightest idea I've ever had, but it was a very heat-of-the-moment thing and it was what I had on hand. Mixed them with ibuprofen because I had them too.
But hey, I found out what vomiting up my stomach lining feels like, so it was a learning experience! Or something.
>>26568608
>So then why don't the people who it's a problem for just kill themselves too?
If you're not suicidal then thinking "i'll just kill myself" to every problem isn't an option
>>26568644
Maybe they should become suicidal then...
>>26566454
This is the truth.
/Thread
WW3 soon I hope. All the normies will be sent to die for their corporate masters while I rot away in my isolated homestead, being too fat to be drafted.
>>26565901
> a few one time fees
what? The dead wouldn't pay shit. If they had a family maybe, only if they're identified though.
>>26568666
satan speaks
>society hates suicide because its part of the master plan to keep the sheeple under the yoke of mental servitude and a cog in the ever turning machine of nyer nyer nyer
Fuck off with that fedoralord edginess.
People dying makes people sad, so they tell them not to die.
It's not that hard to understand.
Stop with that emo bullshit rambling.
I'd tell you all to go kill yourselves, but its a well known fact that people who always talk about suicide never end up actually doing it. They only do it for attention.
They want you to slave away for them, and if they are on the same level as you they just want you there to suffer beside them.
When someone has the sense to remove themselves from this shit, everyone else gets jealous because they can't do it.
>>26568946
>Fuck off with that fedoralord edginess.
>People dying makes people sad, so they tell them not to die.
Buddy, people are cruel, selfish, sadistic, shallow, competitive, superficial. I, as well as most other people on this board, have been bullied, abused, and thrown out to rot on the sidelines since I was a child. Civilization is based off of exploitation and deceit. The strong survive, the weak perish. The con-artists make fortunes while the honest are enslaved.
You are a fool to think that most people give a shit about the death of others unless they are close family or friends. Much less the autistic failures that inhabit this board.
You have to be delusional to think that people are not naturally cruel and apathetic.
>>26569094
He's going to give you a hearty helping of "*tips fedora*" any second now.
>>26568946
>society hates suicide because its part of the master plan to keep the sheeple under the yoke of mental servitude and a cog in the ever turning machine of nyer nyer nyer
This is true, and your dumb weeb ass is fucking retarded. Stay in your dream world you beta cuck faggot.
>>26569121
It's really the only thing these christian man-children can do to respond to the truth.
>>26569094
>You have to be delusional to think that people are not naturally cruel and apathetic.
This is 100% true as well.
People like to say it's because they want to "help" others. But I do not buy it.
There are a ton of homeless people in my city, and hardly anybody donates, even government workers.
Imagine all the deaths we could prevent if alcohol was taxed to fucking shit. It won't happen. People value their freedom to drink even if it comes at a cost to society.
>>26565530
It is selfish because in the end you're the one that don't want to suffer.
>>26569172
I'd say there's selfishness on both ends.
The greatest happiness for me, even when I am depressed to shit, or in a state where my depression has lifted is that we will all die eventually. This world will die, and all the posters ITT will die too. Everybody.
I am so happy this is the case.
because you can't damage government property.
>>26565366
Dead people cannot be exploited.
>>26569220
HEHEHEH.
Capped.
>>26565366
I've got a bunch of Franz Liszt shit to play, nigga. I ain't gonna die not after being able to play La Campanella in front of hundreds
>>26568946
NO
THE GOVERNMENT IS OMNIPRESENT AND RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING
STOP RUINING MY PERCEPTION OF REALITY YOU JEW
I BET YOU'RE A SHILL
Funny thing.
When christianity first got big they all started committing suicide en masse after converting.
Telling a roman slave dirt farmer who gets anally bred by his master every day that he'll go to paradise after dying was pretty much a guarantee.
The early church fathers had to tell everybody suicide = hell just to stop them.
>>26569234
Give it time, anon. Give it time.
>>26569220
i too am a fellow redditor! xD
/r/4chan !!
>>26569303
>When christianity first got big they all started committing suicide en masse after converting
I always intuitively thought this to be the case
Do you have any links or anything that document it?
>>26569303
>>26569340
Read about Nietzsche's beliefs on Christianity.
Guy had it all figured out
>>26569329
thanks for the (you) but what are you taking about?
>>26568511
That's retarded. First of all, a lot of those problems go away if you let people commit suicide in a controlled setting. Assisted suicide is a thing now in some places for the terminally ill, and there's no cleanup or investigation there, but untreatable mental illness is still viewed very differently from untreatable degenerative physical illness.
Second of all, while some people are chemically imbalanced in ways that make them unhappy and suicidal no matter what, others are imbalanced in ways that drive other people away, and that social isolation is what makes people depressed. Just read this board for a while. In those cases, what the fuck does a suicidal person owe a society that abandoned him?
>>26569399
>feigning ignorance
>just like The Man does when we figure out the REAL reason why suicide is taboo
I think you're a member of the government, actually
>>26568608
Obviously things can't work that way from an evolutionary perspective. Suicidal people are broken in some way; it's not advantageous in any objective sense. Most people are not broken in that way.
That's not a moral judgment, just a statement of fact.
I don't give a shit about how society as a whole views depression as a bad thing, be it random people or 'friends'. At the end of the day they'll act sad for a bit then move on in their lives with their dreams/jobs/familes and whatnot, and you'll come up in conversation every few years for 'sad points'.
My parents however are a different thing entirely. As awful as being a useless piece of trash is in their eyes, being dead is somehow worse even if it's what you want. Seeing their child die would crush almost any parent outside of very horrible/different situations like abuse/neglect or abandonment. A lot can't just get on with life after a month and it be an after thought, you'll be thought of every waking day, the very thing they brought life to taking it's own life, it takes a massive toll on them, questioning if it was their fault despite saying it's not, they can't function properly anymore.
THAT'S what fucks me up. I don't fear death, no, but pain is definitely a terrifying thing. The physical pain of the time it takes to die, or it being a fucked up situation and surviving.
Fucked if I live, fucked if I die. But it's okay, just keep taking these pills to make you feel differently.Prozac doesn't do shit.
>>26568754
If you spend all your money before you die, then no, they can't get anything from you. (And your surviving family is not responsible for your actions if you're an adult.)
If you own anything when you die, though, sorting out who gets what can be a complicated legal process.
>>26569432
The government doesn't have members.
Go find your birth certificate and find your number. We have been government/bank properties now i say 100 years now.
>>26568946
What if someone is depressed because they're a social failure and nobody wants them around? It's some serious mental gymnastics for people who had the power to make that person less depressed, and chose not to help them, to think they suddenly have a right to interfere and rob them of their remaining agency.
>>26569446
>That's not a moral judgment, just a statement of fact.
Or maybe everyone who isn't suicidal is broken. How do you define what is broken vs what is not? Just going by what's normal?
>it's not advantageous in any objective sense
...and survival is advantageous? to what end?
>>26569527
m8 I don't have to find my birth certificate
I can just step outside and look at my house
>>26569558
I don't think you get how evolution works.
If one population in a species believes that survival is "not advantageous" and a bunch of them commit suicide, and another population is determined to survive and reproduce regardless of their circumstance, over time, the first population will die off and the entire species will consist of the second population.
It has nothing to do with value judgment. It's simply a description of a mechanical process. Evolution cannot allow the majority of a species to not react negatively to the idea of suicide.
>>26569471
Families do move on with deaths of their loved ones.
My cousin killed himself. My aunt and uncle greived for months, but eventually the coped and moved on with life. They might have not fully recovered but they learned to cope and deal with it,
My farts smell like I am dying. Every time I fart it makes me nose burn if I catch a whiff.
>>26569702
That probably depends on the parents/family. Ours is very small, both my parents aren't social people. Especially my mother, she lives with her mother at the moment, and doesn't really like people at all. Considering i'm an only child they essentially view me as their world, and would do anything for me despite the piece of shit I become.
It fucking crushes me because I want them to just focus on their own lives, I want to have just never existed so they weren't in the situations they are now. I shut myself away from everything and try to use as little resources as possible, I lead them on to pretending i'm doing something with my life because my dad has known nothing but work since he was 15, so to him I either study or I work, and the last workplace I was at for 3 years drove my depression deep down after I tried to put up with it for so long, it broke me. Yet I have no interest in studying or doing anything with my life so i'm fucked either way there.
My mum's a bit more emotional and understands it, but clings onto the hope that pills and such will sort my life out, that i'll find something in the world I enjoy doing and focus on it. Considering I spoke about animation and lot as a kid, she's kind of clung to that idea since. If I try to tell her otherwise, she comes up with all different things to try and veer away from suicide.
My death WILL crush both of them, i'm not saying that because I think myself highly, I really don't, I can just see it in their actions and the way they act/speak.
I can only hope that the recent addition of the small family was my cousin having a child, will veer away the sadness and breed new hope. I keep getting asked if I've seen the kid yet. I haven't since I really don't like children anyway and i'm fucking awkward around them, but i'd rather it not grow up knowing I even exist. I at least have that in my power.
>>26569642
>Evolution cannot allow the majority of a species to not react negatively to the idea of suicide
Why?
>the first population will die off and the entire species will consist of the second population
What's your point?
I'm not following you here. It seems you're still relying on the axiom that survival is desirable or advantageous in and of itself. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. It could very well be that self-annihilation becomes the eventual end of the evolutionary process, I'm not sure why you're choosing to rule this idea out.
I think I'm not understanding you, though. I'm also of the opinion that our existence has grown to become a little more complex than just surviving for no reason, and the idea of something what exactly is "advantageous" should expand to fit that.
>>26569855
Damn.
Whatever you do in life. Whether you off yourself or live. I hope you find the peace you are looking for.
Might I ask how old aare you?
>>26569864
*the idea of what exactly is "advantageous"
What I'm trying to say is, if the majority of the population did evolve to not see suicide as a bad thing, and to eventually commit it, then the sort of "zeitgeist" of evolution would itself have to be redefined to reflect that. Evolution isn't this strict principle that's constantly in place, the idea evolution is defined by what's happening and what's changing and how it's changing, it isn't suddenly "invalid" because it doesn't fit a previous definition.
>>26569917
*the idea of evolution
ahhh so many typos
it's a kind of meta-evolution, if you will
I see your way of thinking as obsolete, in some respects (but not all), no offense
>>26569938
I mean, unless what you're REALLY trying to say, is that from a survival (for lack of a better word) perspective, suicide is not advantageous. In which case no fucking shit, that's self-evident as suicide is literally self-termination. Didn't even need explaining. Doesn't make it particularly relevant in any other sense, and obviously isn't going to convince suicidal people that suicide is stupid because they by default don't care about survival to begin with.
>>26569912
I'm 24, going on 25 in a couple of months. I can't imagine i'll continue living, but it feels like i'm in a limbo really.
It's really fucked up but the only way to fully avoid the detrimental effects would be to kill myself after my parents have sadly died. But that would hopefully be many years down the line, since I'd want them to keep living, since they both clearly found what it is that they enjoy/want to do with their lives.
Though simply getting by for 20-30 years sitting about and listening to music/playing games/sleeping isn't considered living, and obviously has to be subsidized, so I wouldn't want that either since it's a waste of resources.
The ability to remove my existence would be the only option if it was realistic, which it isn't as far as i'm aware.
>>26565366
Because so much of society is built around the idea that we will grow old and we need to prepare and build for this time or we will suffer. If there was a way out think of how much the medical, insurance and superannuation industries would suffer. People lock them selves into jobs they hate to afford to buy houses because they don't want to suffer as a homeless. If suicide were accepted, there would be another option and it would potentially threaten the structure of society.
>>26569864
(>>26569917 is not me)
You keep making value judgments. Good, bad, desirable, those are value judgments, aka subjective. Evolution is not capable of making those. Evolution does not "expand to fit" human perceptions. It only optimizes for one thing and it can only ever optimize for one thing.
If one group survives and reproduces, and another group doesn't, after a long enough time, the second group will be extinct and there will be only the first group left. That's just mathematics.
It's also true that evolution has no long term strategy, and can only react to differences in survival and reproduction that exist right now. It's entirely possible, for example, that a species exhausts its resources beyond the point of no return and then goes extinct. It's not easy to say what has the most immediate benefit either. If you're not going to reproduce and you're consuming more resources than you produce, you most benefit your species by killing yourself. But to answer your question why other people don't also commit suicide if your death makes them sad, it's because for most of them the most evolutionary benefit is in staying alive.
>>26566122
It may not be in the bible but generally the idea is that by committing suicide you are akin to a murder that is taking a precious life that god has given. Only god has the right to decide who lives and dies. Guess he's a got control issues.
because inherently everyone is suicidal unless preoccupied (jobs, friends, etc.), if suicide is made acceptable more people would be prone to give up and die
idk really
>>26565366
You're of more value to society alive, productive, and miserable than dead. It's really as simple as that. Corpses aren't much good to anyone.
>>26570021
Have an e-hug man. Again I hope you find peace.
Society will make it harder and harder to kill yourself in the future. You have to seize your right to death on your own.
They need a lower class to shit on
If you kill yourself then they will need to pick on the next lowest person and group
>>26569207
same
Originalio commento
>>26570127
Your entire argument relies on the notion that the purpose behind existence is proliferation
That is in and of itself a value statement, and in stating that this is the purpose of evolution you are only assigning a value to evolution, yourself, that does not actually exist. Evolution is simply how things are changing. You're behaving as though the purpose of existence is to further existence, when existence truly has no clear purpose, and furthering itself is just something that it does. And, because it does so purposelessly, if it happens to change in a way where it no longer does this, it's not "defective" because it is changing in a way it hasn't changed before.
>Evolution does not "expand to fit" human perceptions
I beg to differ. Evolution created human perceptions, they are a product of evolution. Evolution fucking invented human perceptions. I daresay, human perceptions ARE evolution. And even if they seem nonsensical to you, they aren't truly nonsensical within an evolutionary scope, because nothing that is a facet of evolution can be considered nonsense within the context of evolution itself.
Like I said, I'd agree with you if you said that suicide as a mass endeavor would be antithetical to survival. That's objective. But so far you're just assuming that survival is all that "matters", and, in an evolutionary context, what we evolve towards or are striving for, when really you can't prove that anything at all matters or that the end goal of evolution is just surviving forever.
>>26570439
I don't get what you're on about. I'm not assigning value to evolution. You are. "Purpose" is a subjective invention. Evolution does not have purpose.
>I'd agree with you if you said that suicide as a mass endeavor would be antithetical to survival. That's objective.
That's exactly what I said. It was in response to
>So then why don't the people who it's a problem for just kill themselves too?
>Seems like that'd solve every problem ever
>>26569534
>to think they suddenly have a right to interfere and rob them of their remaining agency.
Who the fuck is interfering with your agency?
Who the fuck is stopping you from killing yourself?
Nobody. No one.
It's so fucking easy to end yourself, but I know that you are never going to do it.
Nobody in this thread is ever going to kill themselves.
Because long ago they learned that talking about suicide is a quick way to get attention.
If anyone in this thread was serious about suicide, there wouldn't be a thread.
They would all killed themselves long ago.
But they didn't.
Instead they come on here to revel in self-pity and fish for attention while getting into long drawn out arguments about society.
If that's not attention seeking behaviour, then what is?
>>26570550
I never said I was suicidal.
>>26568666
SATANIC
A
T
A
N
I
Cthis unnest of the originals
>>26570550
>If they really wanted a gf, they would just go out and get one
It doesn't work like that friend. I have no interest in doing anything with my life so there's no career to work towards, work crushed me entirely so I can't even work up the nerve to do a deadend job until I die.
Yet I still care about my parents to the point that I can't bring myself to just kill myself, albeit the urge gets stronger as time goes on and things become a lot more hopeless.
Despite your one track mind, the situation is not the same for everybody, I come here because it's one of the few things to do simply to pass the time away, I get asked a lot what i'm going to do, and frankly I don't know anymore.
If I could i'd spend my entire life in a tiny apartment sleeping, watching anime, or forcing myself to play games and just fade from society entirely, but housing is hard in the UK due to the overpopulation.
Not agreeing with the anon you spoke to, just honestly letting you know there's more than one side to everything.
'You'd be dead why do you care'
Because as much of a shit-stain I am, I actually do care for my parents.
'If you really cared you'd do something about your life'
But I don't WANT to do anything with my life, I don't want to be a part of it, I don't like people, I don't like the way the world is, I can't bring myself to shut my brain off and just work for the sake of working, or doing stuff I hold no interest in.
>>26570525
You're assigning purpose to evolution by assuming that evolution is always going to be about mindless survival and proliferation, when clearly it isn't because existential angst seems to be a very widespread recent evolutionary development. And, furthermore, your assigning purpose to life itself by assuming that everyone should and will behave based on your model of evolution and that everyone who doesn't is "defective".
>Evolution does not have purpose
Exactly! It just does what it does! And what if we're evolving past giving a shit about whether or not we exist? Objectively speaking, there is no reason for us to not all kill ourselves right now. If you consider continued proliferation to be a good reason to not do so, then you yourself are making a value statement. If you're saying that we literally can't intentionally annihilate our entire species, then you would be wrong because there are many, many people who jump at the opportunity to do so (me included).
>That's exactly what I said
Nope. You're working on a model where you believe everyone will and should behave in a way that will always benefit their survival, and you're calling this "evolution", which is the term you've been using. When really we've evolved past simple species-sustaining imperatives (though they still exist).
I get where you're going with the "those who survive will survive to make more who survive" bit, but my point is we're getting to a point where we can evaluate reality and not care about any of that. We're getting to a point where it is not necessary to consider the survival of the species, and this is because of evolution itself. Like you said, there is no purpose to evolution so there's no reason why we can't do this.
Oh and it still would solve every problem ever because a problem requires a subject. If there are no subjects, there are no problems.
>>26570659
have a (You) anon
i don't think people get that talking about depression and other negative stuff makes people leave. attention seeking works for a bit but not very long. depressed people know this.
people also talk about it here because other depressed people are the only people who understand and don't judge.
>>26566454
>In society like ours where conformity and obedience is paramount
That's literally every society. Just saying. Without conformity and obedience to some kind of norm and values there isn't a society.
>Think about how fast this would all fall apart is suicide WASNT taboo
Pretty sure the presence of a taboo isn't the only reason people don't kill themselves. For that matter, I don't see why a taboo would stop someone who wants to kill themselves; why have any qualms about breaking society's laws when you're going to be dead anyway?
>I think we will soon reach that point, the worse global warming and the overall condition of the world gets.
The overall condition of the world has only gotten better by most measures, with the obvious exception of climate change. Everyone keeps getting wealthier and healthier than they were in centuries past.
>>26570767
I didn't say it wouldn't solve any problems. I said I wouldn't expect acceptance of that mindset to be a reliable phenomenon because of evolution.
I get what you're saying too. The whole mess of modern day humanity was created entirely by evolution. I still think what you're suggesting is a little out there in this context.
And it would still be the case that, if some humans have a biological switch that makes them more resistant to mass suicide, and a mass suicide epidemic happens, those people will suddenly be a larger percentage of the population. You can't escape evolutionary pressures. You can "not care" about any of that, but evolution can't not select against susceptibility to mass suicide. The only way it happens is if a formerly adaptive trait becomes maladaptive, and is hijacked in some way. But the default would be that people are averse to suicide.
I also never said anybody should do anything, only predicted what a majority would do. Why do you keep projecting value judgments on me?
>>26565366
so they can continue to torment us and force us to work for them. if we all killed ourselves they wouldn't have anyone to gang up on and so they would destroy each other. it's human nature
>>26570909
>I also never said anybody should do anything[...] value statements
You did by explicitly stating that those who don't follow your model are defective. You assumed that your model should define whether or not someone is considered broken or unbroken. This implies that they are not operating the way they should, which implies that you know how they should be operating, which is a value statement.
>those people will suddenly be a larger percentage of the population
Unless the prior suicides caused that part of the population to commit suicide in a massive domino effect of grief or whatever else causes suicide contagions. Which would be a glorious end (until another stupid animal evolves to be as painfully sentient as us).
>only predicted what a majority would do
You said that things cannot occur that way, with certainty. I'm saying that because we've evolved to have the special kind of cognitive faculties we have, where we can consider subjective costs and benefits and act on them, they very well could. Which wasn't really my original point but I guess is more of a counterpoint to your counterpoint. My point was mostly just that it would be totally awesome if no one existed because then no problems would exist (I think, I don't really remember lol).
>>26570796
Ofcourse talk like that makes people leave. That's the fuck up thing about it.
People who chime on like 'Talk to me anon' soon fucking regret doing so when they come to realise absolutely nothing they say will help or change anything. You're expected to talk to it about people who then get tired of hearing you talk about it???
So a lot of us keep to ourselves except online where we come across like minded people who are also the same way, obviously can't help each other because of the like-minded thoughts.
Then the other people wonder why we're shut-ins and don't want to be a part of the social world. 'Just try anon you'll enjoy it!'
I tried it, it didn't work, it made me feel even more like I didn't fit in at all and drove my depression to an even worse state.
You're expected to smile and act as if nothing is wrong then they wonder what happened when that fake act begins to crack.
Some people genuinely want help and struggle to get it, others genuinely just don't want to be a part of the world and it's considered a bad thing.
>>26568666
>>26568000
If two trips say it's true, then it must be.
>>26571192
There's something really nice about meeting someone who's in the same depression zone as you irl, though. Like when you stop trying to solve your problems and just find comfort in knowing there's no pressure to behave any differently in the relationship. Liberating and comfy as fuck. It's almost ironic imo because it's like, you only actually start helping each other once you stop trying to help each other in that really direct, problem-solving way (except where it is applicable) and just be genuinely empathetic and shit.
>tfw no apathetic depressed friendor qt to hold
I actually don't think I've ever had a friend like that (back when I had them) who didn't try to hide it. It's a shame so many people are conditioned into hiding it. If no one hid it it would be so much easier to approach.
>>26571072
Goddamn, you wrote all that shit over a couple of minor semantic problems contained in about 3 words.
>defective
As in abnormal and maladaptive. Not intended as a value judgment. The way cleft palate or something is biologically a defect. And yes, it's more likely that it's actually some adaptive mechanism turned maladaptive by some minor change or a new environment, but I wasn't going for nuance in that initial short comment.
>with certainty
Fine, it seems very unlikely for things to occur that way.
Anyway you seem to think sentience makes us not subject to evolution or something. Evolution is always there. It makes the things evolution operates on and their interactions a lot more complex, but it's still there. We do have certain emotional reactions that are hardwired in most humans - reacting with disgust to various things that can spread infections, for example. All that's needed is for evolution to stumble on a way to make people automatically feel that way about suicide. Judging from a lot of people, maybe it already has.
>>26571192
The other fucked up thing is the "can only talk about it with like minded people" thing is that much more severe for being suicidal than just being depressed.
Literally people think they have the right and even the moral obligation to prevent suicide by force, and the law gives them the means to do it. Not worth the risk of bringing up without anonymity.
>>26571247
It's made worse by social isolation too. Like I don't even need someone to talk to about it directly, if I have someone I can just hold, even non-sexually, and regularly enjoys my company. People are so scared of getting close to people they see as needy. Makes sense I guess though.
>select all pasta
>>26571254
>Goddamn, you wrote all that shit over a couple of minor semantic problems contained in about 3 words.
I'm riding a sleep depro high, I'll write as much as I want,bitch.
>Anyway you seem to think sentience makes us not subject to evolution or something
Nein nein nein! I'm saying sentience IS a part of evolution, the two cannot be arbitrarily divided to begin with. Though I am saying that sentience can override older evolutionary directives and redefine what is "existentially relevant" (for lack of better phrasing? there's another way to put that but I can't think of it).
>>26571454
No! You can't change that evolution is about survival and reproduction. Sentience changes what traits are beneficial for survival and reproduction, due to sexual selection and all, but traits that are directly opposed to survival and reproduction can only be selected by having been adaptive in some other context,bitch.
I should probably go to bed.
>>26571512
>You can't change that evolution is about survival and reproduction
But I thought that evolution had no purpose? Are you assigning one to it now? I see how reproduction and survival are a means to continue evolution, but that doesn't mean that that's what it's about, or that it is its eventual end.
>Sentience changes what traits are beneficial for survival and reproduction
Sentience gives us the capacity to completely disregard survival and reproduction and to aspire towards other, more varied ideals. Evolving towards the achievement of those ideals -may- require survival and reproduction, but not if that ideal is nonexistence itself.
You're behaving as though the capacity to commit suicide is some bizarre genetic error that occurs infrequently and not the result of rational thought that most people are capable of having under any given set of circumstances. If it's a genetic error it's one that the vast majority of us possess. It just hasn't been unlocked by the right circumstances yet.
>>26571672
Basically, you're still assuming that everything is done for a purpose, and that that purpose is survival and reproduction. But then on the other hand you claim that there is no purpose? I'm either not getting it or you're contradicting yourself.
>>26571705
Also human life is rife with all kinds of bullshit that's extraneous to survival and reproduction that I just can't see your way of thinking as universal enough to entirely determine how everyone will behave at all times. Like art, for example. Which I guess you could call conceptual reproduction, which is actually pretty cool and transcendental when you think about it, like we can reproduce in more ways than just fucking now. But it's not necessary for our (physical) survival.
I'm actually not a materialist though so I'm already kind of not inclined towards agreeing with you in the first place, but I feel like I'm seeing things a little more from your perspective (in ways that are not evident in this convo, just like tangentially) but it still doesn't explain everything i m o.
>>26571672
You're still not getting it. A species that does not survive and reproduce goes extinct. That's literally what evolution is.
Evolution has no purpose because evolution has no end goal. It is only amplifying the traits that aid propagation minute by minute.
It is a hill climbing optimization algorithm, and proliferation of a trait IS the metric it optimizes.
>>26571788
>But it's not necessary for our (physical) survival.
Survival _and reproduction_. Learn about sexual selection.
>I'm actually not a materialist though
Well there's the problem. You can't deny that if you were a materialist you'd be compelled to accept what I've been saying.
>>26571839
>Survival _and reproduction_. Learn about sexual selection
Oh come on, you aren't honestly trying to assert that the only purpose behind art and creative expression is for people to get laid, are you?
>A species that does not survive and reproduce goes extinct. That's literally what evolution is.
Oh, so the end goal of evolution is extinction?
>It is only amplifying the traits that aid propagation minute by minute
Nope. It's amplifying traits that are carried by creatures that are capable of propagating those traits. The traits themselves don't have to aid in propagation. The objective evolutionary preference for traits that aid in continuation is coincidental. Not all traits that are propagated will be necessary, beneficial, or even at all related to continuation. The ability to reproduce is what carries evolution, not what defines it.
Any creature that is capable of rational thought, is capable of overriding instinct with that thought or using that thought to condition themselves into fooling that instinct or otherwise circumventing it, and has knowledge of its anatomy, is capable of killing itself. It's not going to be bred out of the population if everyone who is currently suicidal decided to kill themselves all at once.
>>26572189
I mean I guess what I'm saying is, if you're going to call suicidal people defunct, you might as well call human consciousness defunct because suicidality IS something that can arise in almost anyone given the correct circumstances. It's always going to be a looming threat unless the foundations of human cognition change entirely.
I guess, at this point, I'm questioning the assumption that suicidal people and nonsuicidal people differ, genetically, in any truly significant way that is heritable via sexual reproduction.
>>26566454
> they're saying those things to reinforce the control mechanisms their world view is based off of
came in to post this, but i disagree that its about denying someones empowerment. i think its because normies believe two delusions, one of being valuable and special, another being morality. if they said it was ok it would devalue both these delusions.. normies cant admit they're worthless bones wrapped in flesh, over-evolved monkeys.. they believe in a soul
> All they do is pander to emotion
literally how normies work. sociopaths use this against them, such as politicians using emotional language to sidestep any real discussion, or chads placating their emotions whilst fucking 3 staceys on the side. normies cant into logic. if they could, they wouldn't be normies.
