Understand: you are a fucking computer. You are a set of a fucking algorithms programmed to be this way. There is no decision making, "you" are simply an observer experiencing the inevitable chemical and physical reactions of the world. Everything you know and can ever know is only relative to you. The universe doesn't even unfold in an objective manner unless viewed upon by you. You are alone. Powerless. Knowledge isn't even what you think it is, it dies with objectivity and is reborn as a set of triggers to stimuli in your mind. You cannot know your place in existence, and you cannot even know existence.
In the end, you don't even get to know why you must suffer.
Determinism is false. Sorry.
>>25438082
> le the whole world is rigged and evil and I'm the only one euphoric enough amd enlightened enough to see this may may
>>25438115
"hurr durr i have free will god gave it to me im super special like that"
If that were true, why would you bother to tell people that?
>>25438151
Sorry, physics has shown us that the universe is nondeterministic. See: Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
Hey kid, I'm a computa
Stop all the downloading
>>25438177
Because I'm not bothered by things like most people here are. I don't care if no one loves me or if everything sucks and is pointless. But I'm not a psychopath or without emotions, I've simply learned the ability to suppress them. Everything I wrote may as well be wrong, it's not even complete. I just wrote this shit out of boredom/attention. Because every time I think I figure it out and I realize I'm wrong. And I can readily accept the fact that I am an algorithm without altering my behavior.
>>25438082
Nah eat a dick.
>>25438136
Okay, OP is right though. The universe is deterministic. It's okay if you refuse to accept it, wether or not you will evnetually accept a deterministic universe was already decided at the instant of the big bang's bang.
>>25438259
i dont know much about computers other than
other than the one we got at my house
>>25438291
I guess I can dig but you're still just another fsggot with a long-winded explanation for being addicted to (You)s.
>>25438210
Determinism doesn't mean one set universe occurs. It's still determinism if an electron travels from one point to another without taking one definite path.
babby's first venture into determinism?
>>25438318
faggot*
>>25438299
It's okay if you refuse to accept it, wether or not you will evnetually accept a deterministic universe was already decided at the instant of the big bang's bang.
That has nothing to do with any of this. You are talking about fate now.
>>25438371
Call it what you will, but everything has already been decided. Even this thread and how you will die.
>>25438371
No I'm done correcting my shit. I fucking can't stand typing on this shitty tablet.
>>25438402
Whatever helps you sleep at night. But I don't buy that, I can understand where OP is coming from because he is only saying we are like machines, we can adapt to anomalous changes, you are telling me we are characters in a book a la Neverending Story. Adaptability, necessity is the mother of invention, there is no set plan, we are deisgned to make due with what is available.
Even though I think determinism is probably correct, you still can (and should) put in effort to improve your life
I got stuck in a mental trap for a long time of thinking there was nothing one can do but go with the flow of reality as it unfolds, and this is not true. The "decisions" we make are a result of processing and speculating about different outcomes, so the way I was able to break this trap was by realizing that it benefits me to simply pretend free will exists. Consider the outcomes: Revel in determinism = sit on 4chan and wait to die. Don't think about about determinism = maybe do something to improve your life
Of course most people just use determinism as an(other) excuse for why their lives are the way they are, no one is actually constantly brooding over the great causal chain of existence
I've been thinking a lot about how the illusion of free will arises as abstracted from its electrochemical underpinnings but far greater minds than mine have gotten nowhere with that
>>25438466
>you are telling me we are characters in a book a la Neverending Story. Adaptability, necessity is the mother of invention, there is no set plan, we are deisgned to make due with what is available.
A deterministic universe is not incompatible with adaptability or creativity. Only that wether or not you will adapt or create a new way to do something has already been determined.
Think of it this way: let's say there are infinite universes, and another universe may spawn from each action or decision (work with me here). Now let's say you're trying to decide between an icre cream cone or a candy bar. At that instance of time, it has been determined what your answer will be (based on your likes, beliefs, predispositions, which are all stemmed from your genes and your past, how you were raised etc.) so even if you choose "on a whim", you will find that in every single infinite universe that my stem from that, you will choose the same choice each and everytime indefinitely. As long as your experience is the same, as long as you are the same at that instance as you were in the `original` instance. Am i wrong?
The universe being deterministic or not literally changes nothing in in anyone's life.
>>25438567
Determinism is correct and you are a computer. Meaning you only want to improve your life because you are programmed to, and you only try to improve your life because you are programmed to. I'm not bothered with the notion of determinism or being a computer, and you shouldn't either. Make your decisions in life based off whatever goal it is you seek to achieve.
>>25438344
It really does though. Even macroscopic objects have a level of uncertainty to them, the difference is that on a quantum level the uncertainty is great, while on the macroscopic level it's so small that it's usually a waste of time to even consider it.
>>25438567
Also none of this accounts for mutations. Most living things are programmed to do [x] if [y] happens but not in the event that a disease might evolve to become resistant, or a population of other apex predators randomly explodes, or we all wake up one day and are huge fucking faggots because of the internet.
>>25438671
Wether or not a mutation will occur in an individual was determined at the start of the big bang, billions of years ago. It's all cause and effect.
>>25438642
What this guy said (fuck tits mcgee)
>>25438136
He never mentioned atheism, asshole.
I know it's way too difficult a concept for you to understand, but op is referring to determinism, and probably some quantum shit with the observer comments.
>>25438583
>Am i wrong?
It sounds like christ fag logic to me. Why assume another entire alternate niverse is born every time we make a decision rather than just go by what we observed, which is that the key element of life is adaptability?
>>25438666
Yes, I agree.
The thing is, I've seen people post "Determinism is real, I have no choice but to be a retarded frogposter doing nothing in my life, it literally could not be any other way and I am powerless to change the way things are going." And I felt similarly for a while and only recently came to realize it was simply a mental trap that offers a convenient excuse.
>>25438745
That's why I asked you to work with me, it was an analogy. Don't get too worked up on it. And wether or not you will adapt has been determined since the big bang. You have never, and will never make decision of your own, all decisions you make is a result of your programming, which is a result of the big bang. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.
>>25438767
>And I felt similarly for a while and only recently came to realize it was simply a mental trap that offers a convenient excuse.
That you would come to that conclusion and not let the deterministic nature of the universe control you, that too was determined the moment the big bang happened.
>>25438771
You didn't expand upon your point at all in posting this. It still seems like it wouldn't make a difference either way, unless living in a deterministic universe is a viable reason to kill yourself or something.
>>25438811
>unless living in a deterministic universe is a viable reason to kill yourself or something.
Not at all, as a matter of fact, wether or not one will find reason to kill themselves has already been determined. There's no point in fighting it, wether or not the stimuli that you will be exposed to are enough to cause you to be suicidal is a result of your brain's programming, which is a result of the big bang.
>>25438151
>>25438082
and this is why youll never go places, OP
>>25438869
Fighting it would be to do anything but kill yourself. Hell you're kinda fighting it no matter what you do. So who cares?
>>25438907
Fighting what? It isn't possible to fight determinism.
>>25438869
>what is quantum indeterminism
>>25438796
Indeed. Crazy shit.
I started typing up a long thing about this that attempted to "prove" that "there is no point in trying" does not follow from "determinism is real" but then I ran out of steam. Maybe I'll revisit it. It's tiring to abandon the "self" and frame everything in evolutionarily conditioned stimulus/response.
I started writing it in hopes that it might benefit someone, but I came to suspect that most people who cite determinism as an excuse for their inaction have plenty of other issues stopping them from improving their lives and determinism is just a convenient excuse, so it started feeling less useful and more like philosophical wankery
I mean, most people don't need to hear "You can work to improve your life," they just do it
>>25438932
Then why live? Even killing yourself won't stop it.
What people here are asking is how this affects your decision making. What is not ultimately arbitrary about disclosing this information?
>>25438767
Chad was born a 9/10 tall white guy in a rich family and he has a great life.
Anon is a 5'4 manlet with a 4/10 face and is poor as fuck and has almost 0 opportunities to improve his life.
>but muh free will, but muh meritocracy, but muh just world, but muh self improvement, but muh efforts
Most of our lives are determined by things that are outside of our control, can you people just stop bashing others who simply lack motivation when faced with almost inevitable failure ?
>>25438992
That's another thing, I absolutely do not want to minimize all the other bullshit that can make life incredibly hard and painful. I'm not here to give anyone a pep talk that they can be whoever they want to be. All I'm saying is that the deterministic nature of the universe should not be a constraint. Sadly, there are many other such constraints. I wish you well anon
>>25438796
>that too was determined the moment the big bang happened.
Again, wrong. The physical universe is fundamentally indeterministic.
>>25438984
>Then why live?
Because I enjoy living, yes even if that enjoyment stems from the cause that is the big bang. My death is predetermined anyways, it doesn't bother me at all that I may someday die. I hope it isn't soon though.
>What people here are asking is how this affects your decision making
It doesn't affect my decision-making, don't you see? I'm much like the other enlightened anon ((>>25438978)), I will continue to live, and improve upon my life, because the position I'm in right now allows me to, you could say I am simply fortunate to be in an environment where my programming allows me to excel in my duties, everything I do traces back to the big bang. I'm not foolish enough to think I've made any decision of y own free will though, the two are completely seperate.
In any case, wether or not you will accept determinism isn't up to you, it's already been determined billions of years ago.
>>25439077
I fail to see how they're separate. But I guess I don't have as much invested in understanding this as you.
Magnificent Gentleman should be front-center. Fix this immediately.
>>25439061
>>25438938
>>25438667
>>25438210
Why isnt anybody commenting on this?
>>25439607
I already said that the uncertainty of particle movement is still a part of determinism I just don't care enough to argue about it.
>>25439061
>>25438938
"Quantum indeterminism" does not support free will or suggest in any way that the universe is not deterministic, it just means we don't have sufficient knowledge to fully predict particle movement.
If you believe in free will / nondeterminism you're a fucking moron and you should read more.
backreaction.blogspot.com/2013/07/you-probably-have-no-free-will-but-dont.html?m=1
>>25440312
>it just means we don't have sufficient knowledge to fully predict particle movement.
Wrong wrong wrong. You can even visualize indeterminism by shining a laser through a precision slit toward a projection screen. As you close the slit the light projected on the screen obviously gets more narrow, but after a certain point it begins to spread out thanks to the uncertainty principle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgW7qaOZD0U
That doesn't even get into things like beta decay which is truly random. Why is it so hard to believe that our brains are also indeterministic?
>>25440488
>beta decay
Story of my life!!!!!!
>>25440488
>introducing a random element into the decision making process means I have free will!
No it doesn't, it means it was random.
Again, stop watching meme videos on YouTube and read more.
