Can a robot be good at social engeneering?
>>25379494
Yep, but that's a cyborg not a robot.
Machiavellian individuals have low empathy and social skills but higher impulse control and cynicism.
An adroit person isn't a person with high empathy. High empathy people find it hard to be genuinely manipulative.
Old school robots who are on the outside looking in, but aren't preoccupied with delusions and memes, totally can. Seeing the whole picture without being a part of it makes it easier to understand it, I think.
But your modern robot, probably not
I would say they could be the best at it, since they no longer belong in society itself so they can just observe it more objectively without getting their own feefees hurt.
Once robots realize the trolling power that comes with social engineering, it looks way more enticing.
>>25379494
if you can't communicate you're gonna have a bad time in engineering. literally everything is teamwork
>>25379494
>Social engineering
What even is this?
>>25380023
Actrually , a sociopathic guy is a robot just as any virgin loser.
An antisocial personality is all it takes to be a robot.
>>25380023
I'd disagree with you anon
Empathy makes social engineering all the more easy because you understand people on both a visceral, subjective level and the objective level
Having empathy =/= being a good person, or even acting on that empathy. It just means understanding/feeling people's feelings. When you understand them, you can control them.
I can see why empathy would make people less malevolently manipulative but that's only because they've realized they shouldn't, being given information that the sociopath is denied. In any case it's not so cut and dry. If you can revel in/cope with all of the bad feels you might incur, and still maintain objectivity, being empathetic is probably a plus, I would think.
>>25379494
Of course. It's basically just trolling, as >>25380100 says.
>>25380137
The branch of hacking that doesn't require actual hacking. Convincing people to give out information you want, or do things for you.
>>25380137
Consciously directing the way people interact with each other, often subversively but not necessarily.
>>25380100
I miss manipulator wojak, those was better daily threads than the current wagecuck pepe
>>25380141
But I'm an extreme high mach and I can be genuinely glib whenever I want to.
In situations where other people describe "dropping spaghetti" I basically go numb and start feeling out other people's vulnerabilities. I do this even though I don't want to. I can only be genuine on the net or with close friends and family.
And whenever I forcibly try being genuine with others it gets weird because I'm basically ripping my face off and there's nothing beneath except the stuff you don't show strangers.
The worst part is, people like me when I'm being an asshole like that but I'm emotionally starving on the inside because I get no real human contact.
>>25380231
>The branch of hacking that doesn't require actual hacking. Convincing people to give out information you want, or do things for you.
>>25380234
>Consciously directing the way people interact with each other, often subversively but not necessarily.
Oh... you mean having social skills?
>>25380275
Isn't feeling people's vulnerabilities a form of empathy?
That's what I was trying to say in my other post
People see empathy as this objectively good thing when really it can go either way like a lot of other shit
>>25380269
I'm a newfag that has assimilated well, but GOD FUCKING DAMMIT I wish I could've seen what you're talking about
I'm sick and tired of these fucking fembot and "im lonely" bait threats
>>25380289
Depends on what you mean by social skills
Being able to talk to people and form bonds is a form of minor social engineering, I suppose, but I usually see social engineering as something where you limit your own direct involvement and play people off each other on a much grander scale, using a knowledge of lowest common denominator human behavior to do so, rather than modifying behavior on a more personal basis.
Having the social skills to make a lot of friends is different from, say, tricking an entire nation/web of nations into believing in certain concepts through conditioning and possibly other means.
>>25380297
Yeah, but what kind of empathy? A guy I respect for having high empathy once told me "It's like you have empathy, but you don't."
I have it easy getting into other people's heads but I can't force myself to actually "be human" with them and feel warm feelings towards them.
>>25380342
I know those assimilation feels
Resistanceisn'tfutile friend
We can do it
>>25380343
>tricking an entire nation/web of nations into believing in certain concepts through conditioning and possibly other means.
So you want to know whether robots can be politicians?
You know starting wagecuck threads on r9k isn't social engineering
>>25380349
Yeah I'm usually the same way
I try to flex my "I want what's best for them" muscles these days, cause fuck making the world a shitty place, but I have that decoder instinct as well. Usually puts people off, actually, cause I understand enough about them to want to (not) understand everything about them just from first contact.
I don't really know what the difference between that and the "other" empathy is, though.
>>25380349
Do you root for the underdog in any given scenario?
Personally I see the world as being more unfair than people. Well, people as a collective suck, but individuals hold greater power and agency. Weird how that is.
Because of that, I always want the individuals who are outliers to stand out against any form of collective society.
That's my mode of empathy.
>>25380417
>You know starting wagecuck threads on r9k isn't social engineering
Except it is when it preoccupies the thoughts of those who read them and causes them to behave differently
You're being inconsistent here. If making friends and being gregarious is enough to pass the line required for you to consider it to be "social engineering", then why isn't something else that modifies the behaviors of others on arguably a larger scale?
We're really only arguing semantics at this point, and you seem to be really focused on sassy putdowns. Not sure why. Do you dislike robots?
>>25380450
>If making friends and being gregarious is enough to pass the line required for you to consider it to be "social engineering"
And I drew this conclusion based on you equating social engineering with social skills, considering the two to be synonymous. Unless you were lying and you don't actually consider them to be?
>>25380450
On 4chan it doesn't really count. 99% of the posters/ lurkers understand ragebait culture + the constant need to be contrarian.
So wagekuck threads are only slightly hilarious, and at most drive away angry normies from this website without exposing them to more messed up shit like redpilling/ holocaust denying
>>25380471
>99% of the posters/ lurkers understand ragebait culture + the constant need to be contrarian.
Isn't giving them that understanding and causing them to behave in such a contrarion manner itself social engineering? I think only if it was preplanned, myself. If it just happened and wasn't calculated then I would agree that it isn't.
>On 4chan it doesn't really count
4chan is a pretty big site, touches a lot of people.
>>25380422
Yeah exactly. It feels like I'm playing a game where I can't see the while board so there's this nagging feel that I should just "water the tree" and be really pro-social, at least long-term.
Short-term it can feel like being one of those emotionless guys from Equilibrium that fights by just "making the optimal decision" all the time but can't really derive any enjoyment from it because they're emotionless.
>>25380427
No. My morality is relative. If I act in a way that I see as moral, I just act to minimize suffering and maximize gain for a person that isn't me.
>>25380486
Do you feel anything when you receive praise, admiration, or prizes?
Do you have a need/ desire to validate yourself? If someone set a meaningless challenge before you that rated your performance based among others, would you partake?
And don't answer in an edgy "I don't care what others think" way, cause even those guys at some point felt giddy over social validation.
>>25380534
Is that really empathy, though? You're not feeling what they're feeling, necessarily, instead you're feeling what is directed at you.
That just seems like general insecure social behavior.
Is this kind of thing social engineering?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT306YIh3FI
>>25380534
Yeah, I can feel warm feelings like safety and validation and stuff and I like that. I really really like feeling any social feel, even bad social feels desu. It's better than being spiritually stuck in an ice block.
Although part of the machinery in my head constantly wants other people to like me just to receive safety and power and that part I try to keep at arms length from the rest because I don't want them to get muddled with the "real" emotions.
I care *a lot* about what others think of me in either "mode of being" because other people are hugely important for "material reasons" and also to me as a "real person" because I'm not actually callous I just act that way because I suppress my empathy for "material reasons".
>>25380554
But if you can feel insecure/ a bit weak at times, you understand what that is like and can identify others as an extension of yourself in this way. You don't want them to get hurt the same way you could.
Maybe for some this field only extends to their family/ children. Regular people extend this field of "part of me" to their relative society/ groups/ friends.
Me, I extend it to fucking everything. Including enemies, rivals, inanimate objects, and even ideas. But I also want everything to be stronger, so I want everyone to be exposed to truths/ hardships enough so that they believe they can toughen up and face reality more easily. Delusions or hypocrisy is what sets me away from being empathetic with someone.
>>25380647
Oh I see what you were saying
I was taking it in kind of a manipulative context (things like you should feel bad because you're not x y or z, or I want you to feel good when you become x y or z), where what the person themself is feeling is not as relevant to what they -want- you to feel.
>>25380674
>where what the person themself is feeling is not as relevant to what they -want- you to feel.
Speaking on "what they -want- you to feel", I have an amazing time not feeling hurt or enhanced by others. Most people don't know the real me/ what I actually care about (objective ideals, things extending beyond my own body/ identity), so when I'm threatened, praised, or whatever, I don't feel anything. Maybe it's appropriate to react a certain way, but I feel cool by not doing so.
Well, if they give me a present, I'll smile and thank them, but honestly I don't deserve any presents/ praise. I'd rather just shitpost/ laugh at and observe pointless shit together with people.
Oh! How about cringe? Can you understand/ feel/ get into that sort of humour?
>>25380737
>Most people don't know the real me/ what I actually care about (objective ideals, things extending beyond my own body/ identity), so when I'm threatened, praised, or whatever, I don't feel anything
Man I LOVE this mindset
I phase in and out of it myself, depending on how ego-driven I am at any given time.
I totally know what you're saying though
>How about cringe? Can you understand/ feel/ get into that sort of humour?
I don't know, I feel like it relies on the notion that the person who you're cringing at should be ashamed of whatever it is they're doing. Makes me feel bad feels.
>>25380633
Um, if I wanted to describe it further I would perhaps describe the process that made me like this. It's basically thusly:
1. Ow, the world hurts and other people are assholes.
2. I must control the world and the people in it.
3. How do I do that? Well, I must control myself of course! *grueling process of subjugating every part of your emotional life to your intellect during adolescence*
4. It actually works. Am become Machiavelli, controller of worlds. 10/10
5. But now I'm stuck in a mode of operation where my only mode of relating to the world is being a paranoid covertly toxic asshole
So it's more 5/10 really, just like most things in life.
>>25380759
>I feel like it relies on the notion that the person who you're cringing at should be ashamed of whatever it is they're doing
Then you understand cringe.
If you watch someone unboxing a MLP happy meal at McDonalds, screaming quotes from the show for all to hear, and then seeing them go up to the cashier to complain about how they got 2 "Raritys"-
If you watch this and think "WHY WHY WHY WHY, NO NO NO NO NO, YOU CAN BE NORMAL/ LIKED IF YOU JUST *NOT* DO THAT" then you have empathy
>>25380797
Lol I get stuck on 2, because when I think about controlling the world I'm not even sure what I would do or if what I do would be right
Would probably be easier if I had harder convictions, or if I knew for a fact that the ideas behind those convictions would be "good" if applied to everything around me
"social engineering" is the most autistic edgelord thing I've seen on 4chan
no one here could actually pull it off because you need to actually understand social cues and norms to do it.
>>25380807
But the other side of the coin is like, dude, I know the fact that he's projecting his interests like that is both abnormal and obtrusive, but is there a reason why he should personally feel ashamed? Outside of maybe annoying other people I don't get it, but I don't personally value normalcy so much myself, for the most part.
Like he's just being himself, you know? His obliviousness or lack of concern regarding the negative attention he's bound to get is almost admirable in my eyes. Unless he's one of those "any attention is good attention" types...
>>25379494
this movie was fun
I didn't expect fun from german movie
>>25380821
If you grow up thinking that other people are idiots or assholes out to get you then it's more of an imperative desu.
It was sweet being able to talk my way out of anything during JH/SH though.
>>25380867
Oh wait I read the scenario wrong
He has every right to be pissed off over it if it bothers him but yeah the error lies in making a scene when no one's really at fault.
Still doesn't make me feel cringe, just makes me want to explain to him that nobody can do shit about it so he needs to settle down
>>25380797
Yeah, you need religion because I also felt point 2 and 3, but didn't go through with it because I realized through experiences that I can too easily jump to terribly misguided conclusions about people, and that if there is a god/ cosmic force in the galaxy, I don't need to worry about dishing out control or judgement.
No judgement. That is the key idea. You cannot judge- you are *actually* retarded if you do so.
When people are assholes to you, they don't mean it. The world is impartial, everyone is trying their best, everyone thinks they are the protagonist.
By an extreme amount, people are far far more paranoid/ insecure than they are deliberately seeking out destruction/ to hurt people. Or if they do seek out to destroy, it's mostly out of said paranoia.
>>25380910
Awesome post, so overwhelmingly true
>>25380896
If anything when I read cringe I feel bad for the person for being openly mocked
>>25380896
Well, if the world were filled with people identical "societal feels" as me, cringe wouldn't exist. I simply do not care enough, and also share that admiration towards them doing what they want.
But maybe it's a side effect of being bullied into thinking you HAVE to be normal, or else you face consequences? Like, you, for example; you make an effort to at least try to remain normal to other people. Especially people you haven't met yet. Don't want to destroy opportunities. But there's also all these other social mechanisms at play, like making sure people don't turn against you at once, or blending in.
I feel like that has a role on why it's so taboo to be a fucking autistic retard in public, and thus inducing cringe
The video I'm referencing btw:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_aRKeDfqYo
>>25380910
Yes. This is my current line of thinking. I try not to judge - when I don't basically blackmail and guilt-trip people I instinctively jump at punishing others because it's free social cookie points and I get to eliminate rivals. And I try not to scheme except in a positive, pro-social manner.
The main issue is me not being able to show weakness desu, I usually do it in order to show false humility and ingratiate myself to people but showing _real_ vulnerability is hard as fuck for me. I get uncontrollably viciously paranoid.
I ewhore the fuck out of people and I'm a robot. As long as you end up giving them the pics in the end everything's right as rain morally.
>>25380995
You HAAAAAAAVE to be vulnerable.
It is the worst, but admitting you're wrong, letting the world know you have no idea what you're doing, that you have ill feelings/ intentions towards certain people and having them know
You need to be fucking destroyed by vulnerability. You HAVE to be. It is simply not a choice; the more you hide it, the more you turn into the problem you seeked out to fix/ destroy.
And we are lucky. We have society. Back in primal times, if you showed vulnerability as a male, you would get dominated. Fucked in the ass, killed. No tribe would want you. Die.
But not anymore. No one gives a shit. We're all set. We're all well off. Even if you openly cry in public, the worst that can possibly happen is someone thinking you are weird. Otherwise, everyone is down to accept you and love the shit out of you, because most people HAVE been vulnerable.
Really nice sociable people, asides from manipulative psychopaths, are very vulnerable. Legitimately. Vulnerability is IMPORTANT. Not for others, not for society, but YOU. Your ethereal/ cosmic soul. Or the consciousness program in your brain. Whatever you want to identify it as.
>>25380759
I thought about this a little more, and I actually think ego-driven isn't the right word. More like when I'm adopting an ego that has to rely on itself to support itself, rather than concrete ideals that it's attempting to output into the world or whatever else it's designed to do. I think that's what's really happening when an ego comes under fire, if it's not derived from something other than itself, it really IS nothing at all and if you are your ego then you don't want to be nothing, right?
Just a guess I just came up with this
>>25381080
True shit. Vulnerability leaves you open to change, and changing to be more internally consistent, and more "you" than you already are, can only be a good thing, because if you truly already were a flawless representation of what you stand for, then you would be impossible to offend (barring deceitful criticisms of you where you are misrepresented to yourself, which I think is pretty rare).
>>25381130
Basically defending a problem isn't as ideal as defending one, I guess. It still sucks that it often ends up being so injurious.
>>25381146
*isn't as ideal as solving one
>>25381080
Yes. I love being born in Sweden, the welfare system basically stops most people from behaving like snakes. It de-fangs them.
And yes, this will kill me spiritually if I let it, it's like a gangrene of the soul. I just need to keep it in check by adding more "good" things to my agenda.
> tfw most of the stuff about bad people in major religious texts actually apply to you
>>25381094
I couldn't follow everything you said but I think I got the jist of it
Speaking from my experience, I've killed and raped my ego. My ego is my bitch. I want to hurt it.
Maybe it's a mental illness, but I've legit reached happiness and feel content. I'm able to bond, share, create, do what I want without worry. I am not scared of the world. At all.
I want everyone to fight their own egos.
Also I'm gonna start name-fagging on this thread, easier to keep track.
These are me:
>>25380427
>>25380471
>>25380534
>>25380647
>>25380737
>>25380807
>>25380910
>>25381080
>>25381213
I kind of want to do this to myself
I used to rely on drugs for that sort of thing but it's too transient, and doesn't work as well anymore
But, at the same time, without an ego, I'm not sure what I would really want here. If I truly had no ego wouldn't I just fly away from this world and end up in some universal place?
I guess a lot of it depends on how you define ego, too. My eventual goal is complete dissolution but for now I'm settling for internal consistency + dissolving obtrusiveness caused by insecurity or selfishness.
>>25381213
This so much.
The ego is like Sauron wanting to control the world but losing his entire self because he spends himself in the process.
I also realize that I've been deliberately forming my ego to be more ugly.
Let me use an analogy; say you have a "template" in your brain, like a jewellery mould, that over time festers and produces your ego. Maybe it can grow from misguided praise, entitlement, apathy- whatever. Your ego comes back even after you've killed it, but from this template based on all your experiences/ connections in your brain.
What I've done is deliberately try to inject some ugly into it. Be it psychopathic tendencies, ill will, apathy, laziness- whatever traits that I can identity and hate.
If I do this, spotting my ego's presence and squashing it becomes easier.
Also, your ego IS your worst enemy. If God/ The Devil is real, your ego is the devil that incapacitates you. It hinders you from your true productive potential and happiness.
>>25381358
Wat. You're beginning to sound like you're narrating my thoughts, or that you're someone I only vaguely know who seems to know me well.
Though usually I let others do the quashing for me.
>>25381317
You have nothing to lose and the entire universe to gain
It's almost the equivalent to killing yourself + your identity, but it's totally worth it in every way
The difference is like living in a small network of tunnels underground, and living in an open field, with the sky, mountains, ocean, grass, and trees all shining and singing to you
It's wonderful and exciting, do it
>>25380073
>old school robots
Lol
>>25379494
In my case my empathy eliminates wanting to pull shit over other people. If there was something to bring down that final barrier sure. Others don't have that so it's easier sometimes.
>>25381411
I don't know anyone who has shared these similar experiences with me
I also let others do the squashing sometimes; it's a bit masochist but the benefits to having half of your entire kingdom destroyed and rebuilt is fantastic.
So I try to openly invite people.
The only downside is that most people are not at this understanding. They too have pride and most of the time when someone sets out to "destroy" you, it's misguided anger/ judgement rather than seeing it as an opportunity to have everyone grow.
It sounds normie, but you turn into this growing learning consciousness.
You're still sort of scared of debate/ destroying what you have, always. But each time you let it go it's like- it's like when you feel like puking but don't want to let it out. But then when you do you think "Wow, why didn't I do this earlier! I feel way better now!"
>>25381507
>They too have pride and most of the time when someone sets out to "destroy" you, it's misguided anger/ judgement rather than seeing it as an opportunity to have everyone grow
That part is usually pretty easy to ignore, and as long as their resentment doesn't have any tangible consequences you can discard things that don't really make sense or aren't relevant. Though I guess it means they're not apt to using you in the same capacity that you use them. It's annoying, though, how you can't be like "but that's not really me!" at them, because you start this chain reaction where whatever you're being at the moment is solidifed as "you" in their mind, so they'll reference past attributes that don't really apply to you anymore and it's kind of like... huh you're not really getting the disconnect at this point are you? People see others as static, I find (myself included)
It's harder still when you're not sure what angle someone is playing at all.
>>25381658
>"but that's not really me!"
Or more accurately, but that's not really me -anymore-. Obviously it's most likely a distilled "you" when it occurs
>>25381658
>>25381698
Ffffff- exactly!!!
But yeah, I also have those negative traits in debates as well
I can look back and see that I've even made those mistakes recently
But yeah, what you said is spot on
http://westsidetoastmasters.com/resources/book_of_body_language/toc.html
read this senpai
>>25381797
Yeah that's true it's always a shocker when they catch you doing something you thought you had left behind
And the familiar cognitive dissonance sets in, there's a little internal battle, and then you have to settle at oh shit you're right my bad
