Can all knowing God change its mind?
>>24880973
>can something that doesn't exist change its mind
no
>>24881743
Stop arguing semantics, dickhead
>>24880973
no, the god cannot
>>24880973
Of course he can. It's 2015 for HIS sake! He was just waiting to be okay with gays and general degeneracy all this time.
if god is truly omnipotent and omniprescent he would never change anything ever. he knows what is best in the past and future, and controls everyone's future, including satan.
>>24880973
well you're assuming god is anthropomorphic and can "change its mind' in the same way we do, instead of having some kind of indescribable omni-consciousnesses
but god doesn't exist anyway so who cares
>>24880973
An all-knowing god can't even have free will
>>24881743
can you prove that it doesn't exist
And in the end despite free will even Satan is going to be saved. God is conscious and feels, both as Christ and as God but he's directed by the fact of his own existence on the Day of Judgement. It's both scary and reassuring and if we all thought about it more we'd be calvinists.
>>24880973
>all knowing
I don't think it is possible to be all knowing. It is something of a contradiction that comes from y'all not really understanding what it means to know.
>all knowing god
>cares about some random planet with evolved monkeys
>>24883206
>in our image
>>24883030
There's no need to prove anything. There are no space unicorns.
>>24883395
pretty sure i slept with a beautiful pale skinned unicorn last night.
he had an erection and everything my god i would pay to do that again
>>24880973
No but he can be vague and have other interpret his ways wrong
Why would he hate gays he created them, there's no reason. Why would some guys who knew Jesus add parts about hating gays, tons of possible reasons.
>>24883395
>Aliens don't exist
i mean there's doubts but we don't know
>>24880973
Yes.
God is all-powerful. Anything is possible.
>>24882412
Can God make a mountain so tall and heavy he cannot move it?
Yes.
And then he will move it because he is God. God's power is beyond all reason and logic. Indeed, if he could be explained in such terms he would not be God. This is the basis of Faith.
>>24880973
He doesn't need to. Because an all knowing mind would understand to accept all things since everything has an end.
>>24884298
That just sounds like the biggest cop-out.
I can't believe there are still people killing for this guy.
>>24885025
Doublethink m8. Live in your world, play in ours.
>>24884298
No god is a higher being, he has the ability to create and know all within his creation but like a programmer in order to make it work he has to keep it consistent. He can resurrect the dead because life is his creation, he can make food because food is his creation. He can't create unmovable mountains because unmovable is not something applicable to him.
To put it into other terms if you are drawing something you can draw whatever you want but you can't draw something undrawable because the concept doesn't exist given what you are doing it's not relevant.
>>24885096
You're talking like the world is some kind of narrative that needs to make sense to the outside viewer. It doesn't and the idea that God "can't" do anything or that something is "unapplicable" to him means that he is not omnipotent. Your picture of God is flawed.
>>24885096
What you have described is not God. God has no limitations.
>He can't create unmovable mountains because unmovable is not something applicable to him.
Think on a grander scale.
>>24885216
Not samefag.
Your argument isn't technically wrong. It's just not playing fair. If we assume that God is a being that defies all forms of logic and reason then we can't make any statements about this being at all (omnipotence benevolence or anything). Which, for practical purposes, collapses into atheism, since you can't apply even the most basic of logic to such a being.
"So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people," (Exodus 32:14).
>>24885216
omnipotent through the ability to do anything that's able to be done. Saying he can defy logical sense is just dumb. Your view of god is lazy ad isn't even biblical, when they said he can do anything we don't know if they would even say that he could do that.
Also the idea is just dumb, it's like saying god can kill himself. No he can't god isn't alive like we know it, god is in a state that we can't describe because in order for a infinite being to create something the he could deem alive he needed to limit it to levels of not infinite. There are constants in things god interacts with and one is that god can not kill himself, He cannot mess with constants at that level and therefore could not mess with a mountain unable to be push. Infinity is infinite in the respects that's it infinite in, god is not infinite in impossible things only things impossible to us.
>>24885310 to you too i guess
>>24885397
>Interpretation
>Implying he wasn't able to know he would change his mind but knew that this is how it would work out the best: telling them one thing then another thing later
>>24885491
I'm not implying anything. I'm responding to a thread that asked "can God change his mind?" With a quote from the Bible saying "God changed his mind".
>>24885491
God is not only a biblical concept.
>>24885589
I'm saying from a human standpoint it seemed like it was god changing his mind, but really god didn't he just thought it was the best if he did it like this
>>24885616
I know i'm saying that not even the bible will back you up on it, if you meant to imply you believe in a different human iteration or god you did a poor job
>>24885491
You're getting closer to a better definition of God.
> god is in a state that we can't describe because in order for a infinite being to create something the he could deem alive he needed to limit it to levels of not infinite
God is the answer to the infinite question of "Why?". Each time you ask this question the answer will become more abstract. Eventually you will be reasoning the answer is due to an all-powerful unknowable actor. This is God.
>>24885657
Why is God the answer?
Inb4 the hilarious answer of "because he is"
can an omnipotent god create a boulder so heavy even he can't lift it?
can an omniscient god know that there's nothing that he doesn't know?
>>24885657
> Each time you ask this question the answer will become more abstract. Eventually you will be reasoning the answer is due to an all-powerful unknowable actor. This is God.
No god embodied on earth is love, God not restricted to what we deem real is just the concept of infinity. Forever growing and only bound by the idea of perfection. Which is another way i could have gone i.e to create something god can't do is not perfect and therefore isn't able to be done by god. But no for one free will, god knows what i'm going to do but he didn't decide it he let me chose even if he could create a better me. This is because it would defy the point of him creating me, it's not within his nature to selfishly deny life or to determine the outcome that's what angels are for although interestingly we could be the judges in the end times.
This is kind of a ramble basically god is the concept of infinity spanning the question of how powerful is he, what can he do, what will he do next etc. "god" doesn't answer the question of if he can feel things or not.
The Abrahamic god changed his mind all the damn time, but from a more general theological standpoint it depends on what you mean by "all knowing", and whether or not you consider god to be unchanging and deistic and even in possession of a mind to change.
If you use a more philosophical view of god then one could argue that attributing the human idea of whims is meaningless, and that if divine providence is as it's often described, then there is no distinction between what god knows/thinks and what is.
If God wanted to, sure.
Who is ANYONE to tell God what to do? It's God ffs.
There is no right and wrong that we deem here on Earth; in case you haven't realized, there's so much different faiths that it's clear we haven't figured it out.
The only time something is right is when God does it, simple. Those contradictions in the holy books that fedoras love to point out? They're all equally right by default. It's silly to (as I used to think) that our outrage at God changing it's mind or going back on it's word is actually cause for any outrage at all. It's only to be accepted because God can do whatever the fuck he/she/it wants to do.
>>24885657
>yfw your point is the textbook example of the god of the gaps fallacy
>>24880973
he doesnt work with something simpleas a mind
>>24885744
If you ask "What is the cause of time or existence?".
You may answer "there is no need for a cause".
To that I would ask "Why?". The answer is unknowable. This gap(!) in our ability to understand the nature of the universe represents God.
>>24885930
Quite, but what is a fallacy in one book of philosophy is a principle in another.
>>24886049
Still sounds like a cop out.
The answer to why is because it was all a coincidence
>>24886090
But why was it a coincidence?
>>24886090
There are no such things as coincidences. There is only the universe that exists. Everything interacts with everything, even if that interaction is a non-interaction.
>>24886049
But in this context "god" is just an arbitrary moniker for that which we don't understand, you could just as well call it magic, or the force. Even then, to say that it is "unknowable" is a huge assumption. We have made unbelievable strides in our understanding of the fundamental nature of reality in recent years, to categorically deny that future humans will not unravel the mysteries of the universe is akin to a 10th century peasant who's 100% sure that lightning is caused by thor and is content in that knowledge as there is no way he could possibly envision falsifying it.
>>24886126
Because it just happened as a result of the big bang
>>24886165
a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without "apparent" causal connection.
>>24886189
>But in this context "god" is just an arbitrary moniker for that which we don't understand, you could just as well call it magic, or the force.
Correct.
>We have made unbelievable strides in our understanding of the fundamental nature of reality in recent years, to categorically deny that future humans will not unravel the mysteries of the universe is akin to a 10th century peasant who's 100% sure that lightning is caused by thor and is content in that knowledge as there is no way he could possibly envision falsifying it.
No matter what advancements we make there will always be more to be made, until we understand the nature of the universe and existence in its entirety. At that point we will be God, our entire system of thought (such as it can be called) will be inconceivable to anything we can discuss here.
Can you imagine a question more inexplicable than "Why?". God can, as well as answer it and those that come after. Quite frightening for my own feeble mind.
>>24886090
I'm >>24885491 guy
and it's kind of kind of isn't it depends on how you use it. So god is this concept of this being that creates what we know as real because it's there basically and it needs to be perfect and giving things life is a overall positive on everything despite the holocaust happening, good things happen more often then the bad. So basically when you bring up the question "is this right?" it's within bounds of a product of god, to over simplify it it's like creating a C++ program everything in that program exists with in the bounds of C++ if you tell it that x=4 ( and make it static) then x=4 and nothing else. This is how it works with us. god is so far above everything we do infinitely above everything we do in fact.
So to give examples:
>Why did mommy die in a car crash
is not explained by god, partially it is due to him creating us and that cause the series of events leading to mommy dying in a car crash but it's not god.
>Why were created
God
>Why do i do bad on this exam
you didn't study, you can argue this is due to the series of event started when god created everything but that's to broad scale since you had the ability to change it, god just knew you wouldn't
Hope this clears things up
>>24886290
>giving things life is a overall positive
How is it safe to make that assumption? By giving something life you give it the ability to suffer.
> good things happen more often then the bad.
To whom?
>>24886366
Look at were we started the first humans had nothing except boning, look at were we are. We are overall a happy race of animals because we can bone, watch tv, some week, eat tons of food, stay warm, browse anime fourms etc.
Just because you have a bit of difficulty in your life doesn't mean you are constantly unhappy, if you are it's called depression and even then you can be happy when depressed.
>>24884298
>God's power is beyond all reason and logic.
That's one way of saying it. Bullshit is be another one.
What is there to change if he knows everything ?
The only that he can change allegedly is to stop knowing everything and know less.
Stupid question. Obviously not. If he had to change his mind then he obviously never "knew" in the first place
>>24882385
This is interesting. Lately I've been struck by the impression that the bible was being practical for its time.
Homosexual acts are frowned upon when it's practiced within a small tribe with a high mortality rate. It is an impediment to survival. That is the sole reason it was seen as degenerate.
However when the species covers the Earth and overpopulation looms as a very real threat, homosexuality is no longer degenerate. Homosexuality slows the birthrate. And in these new circumstances it can actually help, rather than hinder, our survival. So it may look like God has changed his mind, when in fact circumstances have changed enough that formally "degenerate" behavior can help us ward of overpopulation and mass extinction. Survival is God's objective. And anything that helps us survive is good.
The question is why you would think God's objectives would have the same implications in such a dramatically different era of human existence.
God's not all-knowing to be all knowing defies free will. God may know all possible outcomes but he does not know which one will come about. It's also because some historical events are set in stone through prophecy.
>>24888757
WEW lad. You put way too much importance on humans.
>>24889138
Where else would I place it? We are important. We're extremely important. We have the capacity to transform the Earth into a radioactive husk, of course we're important.
>>24889287
The earth is not important
>>24889308
What do you think is important then?
>>24889356
For god, only god is important.
We, our planet, our behaviour, our beliefs, none of it means anything to god.
>>24889393
You don't think the creator would care about his creation?
>>24889449
There's no way god would care enough to create anything like us. That would make absolutely no kind of sense.
>>24889476
Why not? We perfectly border ignorance and intelligence to be interesting to an omniscient being. Plus who else would have created us? Because that entity would then deserve the title of God as far as we're concerned. Or are you saying we were a mistake God put no forethought into? I don't understand why being purposefully created by God wouldn't make any sense.
>>24880973
Chalilah, no. God is not subject to change and is not affected by any phenomenon whatsoever Maimonides writes in Guide to the Perplex that whenever the Bible describes God having regret or changing his mind, or having emotions, these are metaphors that are used in order so that we may have some way of comprehending how Hashem manages the world and understanding the purpose for which he made it.
>>24885397
This means that God decreed annihilation on the Jewish people for the sin of the golden calf (only leaving Moses, to fufill His oath to the Patriarchs), but Moses nullified the decree through the loftiness of his prayer and personal merit. The Talmud in Tractate Rosh HaShannah says that God gave people the ability to nullify what He decrees through prayer (as well as giving charity, and repenting), and thats what you see happen in this verse.
Those who wish to err, will be allowed to err. God will guide those who seek the truth.
An all knowing all powerful God would live outside the constraints of time. For such an individual there is no discernible difference to what one could considers it's 'thoughts' and it actually doing such things.It has seen every possibility, and every variation of those possibilities, and every variation of a variation of those possibilities.Practically the concept of God changing it's mind is like the concept of God never being late. It really loses all meaning to the point that the question doesn't make sense. It knows and it is everything. It can simultaneously be one thing and another. The ritual magicians say some shit about numbers all is 2, 2 is 1, 1 is 0, as above so below, the meaning behind it is complicated enough, but there is a deeper meaning behind the meaning they give to them. If everything then nothing. Contradictions exists in harmony, not contradiction.
I've yet to wrap my mind around it but I can see a little bit of it. Really it's a lot like only being able to see a single pixel of a fuck huge image, and the image is 9001 dimensions though. Any knowledge of it is so flawed it's almost funny.
>>24889574
A perfect being would never bother creating something imperfect. Or do you have a reason?
>Plus who else would have created us?
Since we're just asserting shit, aliens.
Is this the type of stuff theologists think about all day? Serious question.
What if we're just a .gif that God is watching?
>Or do you have a reason?
Because kindness.
>>24889752
Yeah, its alittle hard to swallow, especially considering everything you have been through, I know.
>>24889778
Its a journey.
>>24889752
How is creating something kindness? Shieet, why would god even care about some puny humans' concept of 'kindness'?
>>24889681
But perfection is boring. I'm agnostic. I don't yet know if I truly believe in God, I just enjoy thinking about the possibilities. But to me it seems so fucking boring to program a species that mindlessly does everything you wish without the slightest error (for a omnipotent being, I mean). Look at nature - natural things are often slightly structurally imperfect. That's what makes it beautiful.
>>24880973
Depends on whether or not "all knowing" means knowing the future or not.
>>24889823
A perfect being doesn't suffer. It can't feel boredom.
People literally think about god as a regular human but with superpowers
>>24880973
I never thought about this actually. Thank you for bringing interesting idea to me.
>>24889822
The purpose is to bestow kindness on to the creation. And the ultimate kindness is to allow the creations to take part in the perfection of the Creator. Thats why God had to give laws, because you can't become perfect for just doing nothing. You have to earn it for it to be meaningful.
Hmm, why does God "need" to love us? (See, thats the crazy part, he doesn't have needs and He doesn't gain anything by making us)
Thats a good question.
>>24889847
We may not understand all of God, but we should be able to understand parts of him. God theoretically created us and in doing so imparts some of his nature to us - that's just the nature of creating, is it not? The truly terrifying thing is that as we evolve and learn more about the universe, we should be able to approach a more comprehensive understanding of God. Perhaps that's what God wants - his imperfect progeny to one day understand and reunite with him in complete enlightenment.
>>24890037
Again, why would a perfect being want anything?
A perfect being has no wants, no needs, no desires, no pain, nothing like that. You are thinking of god as a sort of human.
>>24884298
Here is pne pf the many buffoons ITT. We are trying to discuss an all knowing god. Not an all powerful one. Otherwise OP's post would have stated so.
>>24890104
Right, perfection is static. Perfection does not move. Perfection maintains its equilibrium and nothing goddamn happens. It's also subjective, but considering the conversation we're having, that's beside the point.
Perhaps God wanted to move and in doing so splintered himself into separate states of being - removed himself from complete perfection. Apparently one of the gnostic gospels mentions a hierarchy of Gods.
>>24890240
>Perhaps God wanted
And back to >>24890104 it is
>>24890275
AAAAUUUUUUUHHHH
BUT THINGS MOVE! OUR REALITY MOVES! The creation must reflect the creator to some degree! The creator can't be a perfect stranger!
The first thing I learned as a kid is that while it is obvious the creator makes the creation, there is a hidden side to this relationship in that the creation also makes the creator. An artist is defined by making art. A developer is defined by making software. A dancer is defined by his movements. It's a two-way street. Why wouldn't this relationship also apply to God?
>>24889981
The only answer I can give since Im not a great Torah sage, is that our creation is for our own benefit, for our own enjoyment (and to ultimately enjoy being within God's presence in the afterlife)
>>24889476
maybe he ran out of ideas
