Are you religious, /r9k/?
>>24704669
Nope. I'm euphoric as fuck. My morals tend to line up with Christian values though, or at least the teachings of Jesus. He was a chill dude even if I don't think he was the son of god.
>>24704669
Only nominally.
>>24704669
i've studied every religion i could. i've read their books. i believe in god without following a religion. i simply believe god is what existed before the big bang, and through the power of science we'll be reunited with god and bring the dead back to life.
yes, definitely. i am a mormon (inb4 reeee get out) and though i have some issues with my church i love the principles behind it.
no
this text is required to satisfy mr roboto
>>24704885
Good job friendo spread good feelings!:^)
Nazarene here.
>>24704669
Allahu akbar, my brother
>>24704885
kek, are you for real? mormonism is more like memeinism.
>>24704859
There's no such thing as "before" the big bang. It's like saying "north of the north pole".
Is that pic from a Tim and Eric sketch, or is that an actual program?
I'm not sure what I believe anymore.
>>24705223
you're right, i should say god exists outside of time and the universe and is the cause of the big bang, i suppose.
>>24705223
you have NO idea what you're saying and here's your original comment
>>24705500
Time began at the big bang. That is a fact.
>>24704669
Yes I am.
>>24704704
That is because you have no objective standard to define what is morally wrong without God.
>>24705460
This is correct.
>>24705500
>>24705623
There was indeed a "time" before time.
>tfw no shut-in to worship
Although... is God a shut-in?
>>24705662
God is eternal.
>>24705702
Is God unchanging? If you do not know this answer, then your claim is needless. I am eternal too!
I guess so since he's been hiding for over 2000 years. The ultimate NEET. He doesn't do shit.
>>24705736
Yes, God is unchanging.
No, you age, and you will die a physical death.
What happens after that is up to you.
>>24705743
These people in the televisioned church seem to claim that he has only been a shut-in since 1980. I wonder what happened to him?
>>24704669
I'm very conflicted and don't know what I believe in anymore
>>24705660
you're a fucking retard man
>>24704669
The Xel'Naga created the universe to cultivate purity of essence and purity of form to perpetuate the infinite cycle.
>>24705750
That isn't the only thing that I consist of. There are things that are a part of me that will go on in another way. Are they not me, too? I consider them honorary me's, so I care about them.
Also. Death is change, but does not mean the end. Me dying a physical death does not further your claim that I am not eternal, as God is, if so much as only in a way.
>>24705800
Ad hominem and name calling.
Not like I expected an actual intelligent response.
>>24705794
Come to the light.
nope. if there is a god as depicted by the christians, then why has he never once given me what i most desperately want and prayed for, despite my many sincere prayers?
i believed for 23 years. i went on a mission for the mormons. came back, tried christian religions in seeking god. kept going, researched world religions.
deep down i feel there is a god of some sort, but none of the religions are remotely correct.
>>24705828
Your soul is eternal.
Not all parts of you.
>>24705660
That's not how it works anon. There was no space before the beginning of the universe, and if there is no space there can be no time. I agree that I think there was "something" before spacetime began, but I have no idea what that could be. A divine God makes sense though I guess.
>>24705838
God doesn't owe you anything.
>>24705837
But there's multiple "lights", anon.
>>24705223
>"north of the north pole"
HAHAHAHA REDDIT GTFO
This is the most retarded thing I have ever heard, absolutely sickening that this idea is believed in the mainstream today.
Something can't come from nothing anymore than 0 + 0 cannot equal 1.
>>24705878
god is a dip you meme
>>24705871
Do you all just ignore the quotations around time?
It seems you do.
I am literally God. And a solipsist, for that matter.
>>24705838
>if there is a god as depicted by the christians, then why has he never once given me what i most desperately want and prayed for, despite my many sincere prayers?
maybe bad things would happen if you got what you wanted, maybe not getting what you want will make you do greater things
i found a little bit of truth in each religion, they all need to be studied as philosophy and history
>>24705861
Change means that things will go on and if they don't change then they will go on too, which means they are eternal. Unless God will be the way that they cease existing, they will continue to exist if they were wished to exist. Therefore my other parts will go on too.
>>24705879
Only one of them is true.
>>24705888
>can't even read
I feel bad for you.
>>24705899
Believe what you want. You will find out the truth in the end.
>>24705888
I apply that logic to god, and since that clearly means that something can come from nothing i apply that to the universe.
Orthodox here. Everyone else is pleb tier imo
>>24705838
>mormons
God doesnt help heretics anon
>>24705223
>>24705500
>>24705623
>>24705800
IF THERE WAS NOTHING BEFORE THE BIG BANG, HOW COULD THE BIG BANG HAPPEN?
I HATE THINKING ABOUT STUFF LIKE THIS
>>24705925
>Only one of them is true.
Which one would that be?
>>24705923
Not eternally.
Nothing is eternal except for God.
You are trying to become exceptionally clever to justify your lack of belief.
Whatever that may be.
>>24705925
Maybe you will discover new things too, and stop being such a bitter holier-than-though person.
>>24705946
There were things before the big-bang, most likely. Disregard those fags, anon. They don't see the big scale of things at all.
I am agnostic, and personally I find everyone else autistic. There is no true way to prove if a God is real, and no true way to prove a god isn't real.
>>24705953
Protestantism.
>>24705837
>>24705900
>believes in god
>thinks there's a time before 'time'
>"hur der you must acknowledge me in an intelligent way even though what I'm saying is fucking wrong"
Get fucked
>>24705962
Bitter?
Holier than though?
I never said anything to make you believe I thought or felt that way. Don't assume so much about me.
I told you to believe what you want.
Stop projecting.
I am very spiritual in any case, I don't give a damn about what "God" tells me to do or not do though.
However, I do believe that it is obvious that consciousness is fundamental and that I am "God" in the sense that there is nothing that exists outside of my conscious experience.
Atoms exist in the sense that I hear about them on the internet, and if I was to perform the experiments myself I would infer that they were there, and in doing so would be internally consistent with my consciousness standing alone, all things are of it, including learning about fundamental aspects of it.
In retrospect, it seems obvious, but I used to buy into the Western ideas that "you" are your name, race, job, all that societal building bullshit.
>>24705946
If there was truly nothing before the big bang. That means there's NOTHING to stop anything else from happening. So anything can happen.
I want to be, but my life is so fucking miserable it's hard to believe.
>>24705992
"Time" before time.
The Universe needs a cause outside of itself.
Stay in school.
i pray to the universe. pantheism
>>24705925
>>can't even read
>I feel bad for you
please explain, I don't mean to sound pretentious
>>24706024
No, it means the opposite.
It means nothing can happen.
>>24706025
It is miserable because you don't believe.
Is 'le free will' the only reason why God doesn't stop everything bad from happening?
>Well, I COULD stop everyone on Earth from killing each other
>BUT MUH FREE WILL
>>24706043
This. God exist outside time. "Begining" and "end" only apply to things restricted by time. This is how God can exist outside the universe and not need to be created himself
>>24706049
You were saying the person was a fool about the north of the north pole statement, when anon was actually attempting to ridicule someone else for saying there was something before the big bang.
Which is true. Cause and effect.
Things cannot create themselves.
The universe has a cause outside of itself.
No, but I do think there's a lot of valuable wisdom in the teachings of certain religions.
>>24706077
God made a promise to us.
God would never break His promise.
Bad happens because of sin.
>>24705957
Can one not try to understand God and the existence that surrounds us, if not by your words? You try to be exceptionally right, in order to justify your belief. This isn't the way to win over anyone.
>>24706103
>God would never break His promise.
So he could literally fix everything, but won't, because of a promise?You're talking about the forty day flood, right?
>>24706077
Noah's covenant for further reading. There is a clear way to stop bad from happening provided by God that is used by millions and millions of people.
>>24704669
Somewhat. Raised Roman Catholic, but I found the approach lackluster. Why not iron out the inconsistency in the canon? So many potential believers are lost due to hamfisted reasoning for various religious arguments. And then they become cocky atheists.
Still, I maintain my belief, even though it strayed away from the central dogma thanks to Descartes, Kant and mostly Kierkegaard.
Also, people always forget that God, being almighty, is above human logic. So argue all you want, human logic will bring you nowhere.
>>24706084
Isn't God the beginning and the end though? Shouldn't he be therefore both acausal and causal?
No.
I was raised non-religious. It's just never been part of my life.
>>24704669
not really, but neither was my family. Whether it's genetic, environmental, or a little bit of both idk.
>>24706129
I don't need to justify my belief.
Again, you are assuming.
If you want to save time, I can help. If you want to find the path on your own that is perfectly okay.
>>24706133
God would need to take away our free will after fixing everything so it didn't just regress back into chaos.
Sin came to be in the Garden of Eden.
>>24706152
God created the laws the universe operates by and logic.
It is all a gift from God. Logic is the very thing we use to come closer to God.
>>24706043
>The Universe needs a cause outside of itself.
Says who? You're nothing but a fucking insect on a spec of dust out in empty space. You know jack shit about anything. Sweet flying fuck it's people like you who are the reason I want off this fucking planet.
I've read the quran, the bible, I've studied as many philosophical writing that I can. So far, it's obvious no one has a fucking clue what any of this is about. NO ONE.
Look at the pope for example. In this day and age he knows he can't just spout "god told me this, god told me that-" because he knows it's bullshit. He isn't getting any messages from god and he knows it. So he plays the "human" card. He says what we all know to be true. "The climate is fucked, we should tread each other better, racism is stupid, homophobia is stupid ectect"
Get fucking real and realize adults are just big kids who stopped actually learning after graduating highschool and got caught up in the mess of life. The closest anyone has come to understanding the big picture of the universe is einstein and even he was freaked out by how strange and weird things actually are. And non of the proof points to a god
>>24706189
>God would need to take away our free will after fixing everything so it didn't just regress back into chaos.
>You either get to live a life that's not your own, BUT, be free from danger
OR
>You get to live a life in constant fear that a nut job will run up and stab you, BUT, you can live however you want
It's a lose\lose scenario.
>>24705981
Same. We are literally just tiny organisms on a insignificant rock in space, how would we know anything as significant as how everything came to be?
All I know is that I know nothing.
>>24706155
When it talks about God being the beginning and the end, it means he's eternal. He was there before the universe, and will be there after. Since ge created time, he cant exist within it. From his perspective, history is laid out to him on a table, he can see the start and end.
Up until a couple years back after i left the church i was basically atheist, but i have now realized that there is a kind of deeper spiritual truth to everything which cannot be grasped by the ordinary mind. I'm basically a henotheistic folkish heathen now
>>24706252
Humans can be VERY smart. The fact that we're even able to question this subject itself is a good sign of intelligence.
>>24706279
Why not both? God is omnipotent, of course he should be able to exist within it.
>>24706290
>henotheistic folkish heathen
special snowflake as fuck
>>24706279
Keep in mind you're getting your facts from a 2000 year old book written by people who lived in a desert and thought the earth was flat and witches and demons existed. Yeah, you're an autist
>>24706304
Well he can as in he creates miracles and apparitions. I should rather say he's not bound by it
>>24706279
How long did it take you to pull that fact from your ass? Did it hurt?
>Was brought up Christian
>Never, EVER, want to get married
>This also means that, if I somehow ever do get a chance at having sex, I will feel extremely guilty about it afterwards
JUST
>>24706239
Says the scientific laws of physics.
The Pope is evil.
All of the proof points to God.
>>24706244
God can desire one thing that I know of for sure, there are possibly others, the one I know that God can desire for certainty is love.
God can never feel that if He takes away our free will.
>>24706252
That's quite an asinine statement.
There are many proofs for God.
>>24705981
There are many proofs for God. It's proving a specific one that is troublesome.
>>24706317
>its 2015 guys
>the bible was written x many years ago
>its 2015 after all!
>thats why the bible is evil :(
>>24706355
>There are many proofs for God.
Like what exactly?
>>24706304
God exists within it through us.
As well as through Christ. God has come to the Earth.
>>24706317
The Bible says quite the opposite of the Earth.
>>24706355
These "proofs for God" sure must be compelling if you aren't going to share it with us.
>>24706326
It is my thought that instead, God CAN be bound by it. Otherwise, the presencing of Him would not happen.
God can also make Himself appear as a weak man/woman, so that God is not able to lift a heavy rock for a moment. Such is the nature of God. God can both be eternal and finite, because He is both.
>>24705647
>implying morality is objective
>>24706374
The Argument from Change
The Argument from Efficient Causality
The Argument from Time and Contingency
The Argument from Degrees of Perfection
The Design Argument
Pick one of these and I will explain it further.
There are several others as well. But one of these will do for now.
>>24706420
Implying we can have good and evil without an objective standard.
>>24706413
>>24706428
You may pick one as well.
>>24706398
>As well as through Christ. God has come to the Earth.
That's another thing. Why doesn't Jesus just come back to Earth? Not only would it settle a lot of crap, but we would actually be able to take photographic\video evidence, and such, that he was here.
>>24706450
Protestants do believe Jesus will come back to Earth, for the Final judgement. By then it will be too late.
Our relationship with God is similar to our relationship with others in that all relationships require faith. We can never fully know any other person. We cannot experience all they experience nor enter into their minds to know what their thoughts and emotions are. Proverbs 14:10 says, "The heart knows its own bitterness, and a stranger does not share its joy." We are incapable of even knowing our own hearts fully. Jeremiah 17:9 says that the human heart is wicked and deceptive, "Who can know it?" In other words, the human heart is such that it seeks to hide the depth of its wickedness, deceiving even its owner. We do this through shifting blame, justifying wrong behavior, minimizing our sins, etc.
Because we are incapable of fully knowing other people, to some degree faith (trust) is an integral ingredient in all relationships. For example, a wife gets into a car with her husband driving, trusting him to drive safely, even though he often drives faster than she would on winter roads. She trusts him to act in their best interest at all times. We all share information about ourselves with others, trusting they will not betray us with that knowledge. We drive down the road, trusting those driving around us to follow the rules of the road. So, whether with strangers or with intimate friends and companions, because we cannot fully know others, trust is always a necessary component of our relationships.
>>24705946
It is possible for quantum particles to jump to the beginning of the universe without upsetting the conversation of matter. You only need one particle to create a universe
>>24706446
>argument
>proof
>>24706505
They are called logical proofs, as they cannot be logically refuted.
I see we are fresh from reddit. That or still in high school.
>>24706470
Not to change the subject, but why is someone like you, who seems to be a pretty big Christan, doing on /r9k/ of all places?
>>24706524
which can indeed be spinned into another light
>>24706524
Can you explain "The Argument fromEfficient Causality"?
>>24706505
Good luck ever learning with that attitude though.
Although it seems we are capable as people to regurgitate the information fed to us through straws, it seems we can hardly explain why the information, which leads to the result, is the way it is, and what causes it to be this way.
Oh well. If you want to shut your mind down, that is your choice.
>>24706470
>We drive down the road, trusting those driving around us to follow the rules of the road.
The only reason people do that, is because they don't want to pay for damages to another car, or worse, go to jail.
If God exists, what created God? If God is "eternal". Then why can't the Universe be eternal? What if the "God" you guys refer to is just our name for the unknown part of the Universe that we have not learned enough about to know how everything originated? Think of something like dark matter and how we recently learned of it's existence or whatever. There are probably many other things that have existed that consist of things that our human mind cannot grasp?
>>24706428
Although I don't think these prove the existence of god, I admire that you're the only pro-religion anon in this thread that uses arguments that the tiny minority of people who are educated in catholicism use.
>>24706524
Fine then.
>cannot be logically refuted
That's because all of these arguments are presuppositional and fundamentally flawed.
>>24706525
I came here to spread the word of Christ.
>>24706565
Excellent choice.
We notice that some things cause other things to be (to begin to be, to continue to be, or both). For example, a man playing the piano is causing the music that we hear. If he stops, so does the music.
Now ask yourself: Are all things caused to exist by other things right now? Suppose they are. That is, suppose there is no Uncaused Being, no God. Then nothing could exist right now. For remember, on the no-God hypothesis, all things need a present cause outside of themselves in order to exist. So right now, all things, including all those things which are causing things to be, need a cause. They can give being only so long as they are given being. Everything that exists, therefore, on this hypothesis, stands in need of being caused to exist.
But caused by what? Beyond everything that is, there can only be nothing. But that is absurd: all of reality dependent, but dependent on nothing! The hypothesis that all being is caused, but that there is no Uncaused Being, is absurd. So there must be something uncaused, something on which all things that need an efficient cause of being are dependent.
Existence is like a gift given from cause to effect. If there is no one who has the gift, the gift cannot be passed down the chain of receivers, however long or short the chain may be. If everyone has to borrow a certain book, but no one actually has it, then no one will ever get it. If there is no God who has existence by his own eternal nature, then the gift of existence cannot be passed down the chain of creatures and we can never get it. But we do get it; we exist. Therefore there must exist a God: an Uncaused Being who does not have to receive existence like us, and like every other link in the chain of receivers.
I will answer questions you may have when you are done reading.
>>24704669
Which god? There are a whole lot of them to choose from.
I do like polytheism, because at least a pantheon of insane fuckmuppets makes for a good excuse as to why the world is shit.
>>24706683
Now explain how they are fundamentally flawed.
>>24706524
Holy shit kill yourself, they definitely can be refuted, I had to take four years of Catholic philosophy, none of these arguments were accepted by the philosophers of the time and niw they're even less relevant. Even my extremely pious teacher admitted some if them were flawed.
>>24705647
>treat others the way you want to be treated
>>24706694
T-Thanks Anon. That was insightful.
>>24706718
Because they presuppose that God is the only thing capable of being uncaused and fail to explain why.
>>24706498
But where did that first particle come from? :^)
>>24706694
>suppose there is no god
>then nothing can exist
??
>>24706639
Like electomagnetic waves. We always lived with them, but only recently were we able to measure them. So many things could be that we just don't have the tools or the equations to see it.
Or I like to think that we have some minuscule, base knowledge that's wrong, which is preventing us from seeing the right things. Like what what if, instead of base ten math we're supposed to use base eight. We are infants learning to crawl.
>>24706762
This!!!!
It's the perfect, "I don't know, therefore God."
If we keep up this attitude, we won't have the motivation to find out why we're REALLY here.
>>24706734
Which came from God.
>>24706724
Okay, refute this.
>>24706694
I'll be waiting.
>>24706758
Any questions?
>>24706762
Tell me of something else, other than God, that can exist eternally.
>>24706764
The explanation follows what you are pointing out.
I will try to explain in a different way.
Think of a single drunk. He could probably not stand up alone. But a group of drunks, all of them mutually supporting each other, might stand. They might even make their way along the street. But notice: Given so many drunks, and given the steady ground beneath them, we can understand how their stumblings might cancel each other out, and how the group of them could remain (relatively) upright. We could not understand their remaining upright if the ground did not support them. If, for example, they were all suspended several feet above it. And of course, if there were no actual drunks, there would be nothing to understand.
>all these heathens ITT
The best thing a robot can do is go his own way and accept the love and friendship of Jesus Christ. Christ died for your sins-- yes YOU-- and He will never abandon you if you hold him in your heart. Who needs friends and roasties when you have the precious blood of Christ Jesus?
>>24706842
>Which came from God.
Which came from anyone who wanted to be left alone by you fucking retard muppets.
As a person named Adam who has read the Bible and other religious texts, religion is a retarded thing. If you don't go to the bone to obey everything the source material demands or teaches, you shouldn't consider yourself a member of that religion. There shouldn't be denominations, there shouldn't be black christians, there shouldn't be any of that crap because it goes against reason. There are genuinely good people that have done amazing things in the name of religion, and at the same time there are genuinely atrocious people who have done horrific things for the same thing, and to me that just makes no sense. I hate how my country acts as if being a Bible thumping shitbrain is a requirement to even be considered to help lead our countries against other retarded religions.
I don't know, maybe I'm still just the same the edgy nihilistic shitlord like back in 2003. Does God exist? I don't know, no one for an absolute fact knows, but I'd like to find out.
>>24706842
>Which came from God
I'm 100% sure this was a philosophy before your God was created.
>>24706885
If we assume that God exists then we will never know for sure.
>>24706871
Show us when and where.
>>24706887
Show us where.
what the fuck is /r/atheism doing here?
>>24706885
Define fact.
>>24706842
>refute this
I agree that we need the earth to stand, and that drunks need to exist to walk, thay doesn't relate to anything. what you're saying is only logical if you suppose god exists.
I'll be up for another 30 minutes or so.
If there are any questions anyone has about God, I would be happy to answer them.
>>24705252
It's real
>>24706842
Why not the universe itself? Or perhaps another universe where things don't need to be acted upon to occur?
>>24706941
And we need to laws of the Universe for it to exist.
And we need very specific conditions for the Earth to harbor life.
And we need something for the Universe to be in the first place, it didn't just pop into existence. What I'm saying is logical with or without God as it can be applied to everything else, which is why I provided several real life examples.
>>24706940
Has anyone ever physically observed what one would call "God?" With the chance to see, smell, touch, hear, taste, anything that could bring physical evidence. Aside from us living in the mysterious universe we know so little about with a multitude of different interpretations of what God is, there is no way to really know. Until we find our true origins, we can't assume there is a supposed God to be found.
>>24706915
Um, most East Asian and Indian religions have the "do unto others" attitude.
>>24707003
Because the Universe is bound by space and time.
It wasn't always here, it very well may not always be here, many think such things.
Mostly because things cannot create themselves.
The Universe was the effect of some cause.
Think of yourself. You would not be here without billions of causes. From the formation of carbon, to the hemoglobin molecule, to your parents meeting, their parents meeting, and so on.
Sure, you could say why not another Universe, but that leads us to a repetition of the question, what exactly made that Universe? This leads to an infinite regress, A requires B, B Requires C, C requires D, ad infinitum, all just so A can be.
An eternal Uncaused first cause is required to not lead to infinite regress, something that does not need to be caused to exist.
>>24706973
In your opinion is God morally good or evil?
>>24707036
It's comforting to think there is, I'm an atheist but I really wish I wasn't. Knowing that your time is up when you're choking out your last breath is a thought that runs through my brain every day, I'd give anything to die thinking I was about to enter paradise
>>24706858
>almost 2016
>treating Jesus like your pal
>taking advantage of Jesus' kindness
>not following in Jesus' footsteps yourself
>not channeling Jesus' positive energy in your day to day life
>>24707081
This desu, several older religions had the "golden rule" policy
>>24707036
Would you count the Universe?
What about the Earth?
What about all the life on Earth?
What a conversation?
A valley?
A spring?
A mountain?
A hummingbird?
What about the feeling every time you take a breath?
Every beat of your heart?
A person passing on?
A baby being born?
Would you can't any of that?
>>24707087
I explained why. This universe could be caused by another universe in which things happen without cause, including itself.
>>24707087
Okay I get it but what if that eternal uncaused first isn't God? I'm trying to say what if it is some concept that we cannot grasp or we just do not know yet? You are literally just assuming that is God and that is the really the bones of your argument. Yes, it can be God, but it doesn't make sense to believe in that because God is a human-made concept. How many of our first human-made concepts turned out to be true? i.e
earth is flat etc.
>>24707081
And when did these religions come to be?
Post proof of their views, and the time the views were conceived, as well as the means the views were concocted.
>>24707123
You can help.
>>24707089
Infinitely good. I assume you will have some questions about the Old Testament now?
>>24707094
You are in the right thread if you want to see the light.
>>24707160
>I assume you will have some questions about the old testament now?
No.
Do you believe God is all powerful?
>>24707087
What if time and space are eternal?
What makes an Uncaused Being any more likely than an Uncaused Universe?
>It wasn't always here, it very well may not always be here, many think such things.
And many think otherwise. There's no way to know for sure.
>>24707135
Nothing physical or that is bound by space and time exists without itself.
Casuality is a law, no a proposition.
>>24707137
What else do you propose it is? I am saying it is an all powerful intelligent creator. People have believed in God since the beginning of civilization.
Also think about this, there are nearly infinite scenarios in which all life could be wiped out.
Yet only one which could cause it.
>>24707160
In Buddhism: "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful" (Udana-Varga 5:18)
Buddhism was founded in 6th century B.C.E
>>24707137
That's a real issue, what he's doing is like when pagans worshipped the sun, it was so amazing and uncomprehensible they assumed it was magic, that's hiw theists react to the creation of the universe. We just haven't found all the answers yet.
>>24707187
Define all powerful.
>>24707192
They aren't. Spacetime began with the big bang. Because we know the Universe was caused, people refer to the big bang for it's cause, I say that it was an intelligent creator.
No one believes the Universe was always here. If they do, they are incorrect. It's well known as I explained above.
>>24707198
Nothing within this universe, that is. But it would be fully possible within a universe in which the laws allow for such things.
>>24707160
I don't want to find the light, when you die that's it, I just wish that wasn't the case
>>24707207
That's all good and fine, how does that explain good and evil? How does that explain what is good and what is evil?
There are many people that think raping a baby is okay, do you?
I doubt it. There needs to be an objective standardm or good and evil are the result of bias and cannot be absolute.
>>24707198
It doesn't matter what I propose. Whatever I propose can be substantiated by no evidence whatsoever. But I think it has to do with dimensions and stuff. Check out String Theory.
And no, there are many ways that can cause the extermination of all life. If you mean life beyond Earth, the only way I can think of is the Universe somehow fucking up and collapsing on itself. Maybe a reversal of the Big Bang.
>>24707236
>define all powerful
It's pretty self explanatory. Do you believe that God has full ability to change the things that happen in the universe at his will?
>>24707270
There doesn't need to be an objective good or evil, there's nothing to explain. I wouldn't rape a baby because I personally think that it's wrong, that doesn't mean it is. It just means I want my species to go on
>>24707268
I am here telling you it isn't.
>>24707248
Laws allow for what? You still didn't answer the question, if not God, what? No matter what you label it, it will always boil down to God.
Keep in mind we have only been discussing one of the proofs, there are several others.
Perhaps a thread on religion will rise again.
I am going to bed soon, so if you have any questions about God or the Bible I will answer them.
>>24707270
Not for me. I don't need it. I have never needed God to know that raping a baby is not okay. Not once. Do you think that societies that formed with no concept or belief in God had no sense of right or wrong? I would bet not.
>>24707094
I know that feel anon, I felt the same exact way when I was around 10-ish or so. I began to think about why I wanted paradise after death, would I be so discontent with my life I'd need one? No, I want to live my life to it's absolute most goddamn fullest. Knowing that when I do die, if it's 2 days away or 80 years, I had a damn good life that "I" gave purpose to, not something that others believe in to save them. I've been through really shitty times, poverty, divorced parents, diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and fibromyalgia at 14 years old. But I didn't wait and pray for saving, I filled myself with determination to seize the fuck out of every single day I had and ever will have on this Earth.
>>24707124
That's why I included that last part about our mysterious universe. We don't know there's a God because it's here, at the same time we don't know there isn't a God because it's here.
Oh well, nice thread guys, I'm signing off for the night. My advice to you is find a purpose, your own purpose, and to never settle for one answer. Live until your life is gone, and look back on it knowing you're ready to die, not exactly without regrets, but with peace. Goodnight everyone.
>>24707306
I've said it before - laws that allow for things which are uncaused to occur.
>>24707276
Kaku invented string theory.
Kaku said he came up with an equation that proved God.
Here is a video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeNwxj_8Uao
>>24707287
Not really, that is why we define things, especially in debates. But I'll bite, yes.
>>24707305
Based on what standard? On what standard do you believe it's wrong? Some people think it's fine. Which of you is right? Why? Why not? Based on what standard?
>>24707137
Our concepts of the physical universe only get more and more complex the more we try to grasp it because at it's heart an imperfect chaotic flux.
If you're satisfied with chasing after what's essentially nothing then go ahead, whatever floats your boat.
>>24707335
KNOWING ONE DAY THAT THE MOUSE MAY HACK THE COMPUTERIZED SAFE AND EAT THE CHEESE FILLS YOU WITH DETERMINATION
>>24707310
Except every civilization in history believed in God.
>>24707342
There is no such thing, and for you to say that, is no different than me saying God.
>>24707361
THANK YOU FOR GETTING THAT SHITTY MEME REFERENCE, I'LL SLEEP DREAMING OF YOU TONIGHT.
Okay now I'm out, peace.
>>24707236
>Spacetime began with the big bang
Says who? Nobody knows what came before the big bang.
>>24707344
>equation that proves god
Wrap it up guys, threads over. The debate is over, gg everyone
>>24707401
Says every scientist alive today.
>>24707404
Those are Kaku's words, not mine.
>>24707369
Not Jainism.
>>24707401
Also, I do know what was before the big bang, God.
Good night everyone.
>>24707369
I want trying to suggest that this is what caused the universe. I was trying to explain why the five ways are flawed in necessitating God's existence.
>>24707344
So you believe that he is infinitely good.
You also believe that he is all powerful.
Why is the world such a shithole then? Why are there Natural disasters, disease, famine, and other tragedies?
If God is all powerful and infinitely good, wouldn't he prevent this from happening?
This is a question that my own Pastor wouldn't answer, so I look forward to your perspective on this. I believe in an all powerful God, but I don't belive he's good. I don't think he's evil either, I just think he doesn't give a shit.
>>24707428
They believed in a soul.
And the liberation of that soul.
I'm sure it much deeper than that, they probably thought of nature as God.
I don;t know. I'm not an expert on Jainsm, I'm not even an expert on Christianity, not yet anyway.
>>24707423
He didn't prove God. He only concluded it. I got the sense that he found that the design of the Universe HAD to be created by some form of intelligence so he said God. But there's other possibilities.
>>24707423
>>24707439
But there's no proof. Just like there's no objective of a God. Which makes neither more likely than the other.sleep tight
>>24707454
SOMEONE ANSWER THIS SHIT IT BUGS ME SO MUCH
>>24707452
Well you failed because all you said what instead of God it was some whacked out place with whacked at laws where things magically pop into existence and stay that way.
>>24707454
Evil is here because of sin. Disease is the product of sin, famine is the product of greed, which is sin, it's all because of sin, because of evil. Because of the fall of man.
Natural disasters happen from the laws of nature, that is why we call them that.
The world was very different before the flood.
>>24704669
Not really. I'm not a morning person when it comes to church.
>>24707482
And what are those other possibilities?
Enlighten us.
There is plenty of proof that spacetime began with the big bang.
There is a lot of evidence the Universe was created intelligently.
A religion that want to get out of this shitty planet inhabited with religious nuts and militant-atheist.
I can't stand both of the 2 party. One try to shove their faith up my throat. One want to force his belief on me. I'm so tired.
>>24707506
Because he gave us free will.
Except that doesn't make sense because he's omnipotent so when he created us, he created us in the fashion that we would do exactly what he knew we would already do.
>>24707510
But God is all powerful, so why doesn't he stop it from happening? He can stop sin, can't he?
>>24707539
Couldn't he create a world with free will yet without sin?
>>24704669
Yes, I am a practicing member of a Jedi church.
>>24707563
No. I just said that, if God exists, then free will is impossible. That means everything we have ever done was already decided.
>>24707539
This post tries to boil things down to a meme.
First of all you mean omniscient, not omnipotent.
Second of all, how do you know of what something will do if it doesn't exist?
Thirdly how can you know of the evil a particular person will do until there is sin in the world?
Please ignore memers like this that don't even use the proper word before slapping God and the Bible in the face. With their infantile philosophy of what God is and what the Bible is, and what they both hope to achieve and why there is evil in the world.
>>24707454
Satan reigns on earth. Not God.
Our souls are trapped in mortal coils and the only way out is to be modest, indulge in as less sin as possible and focus on God.
Earthly pleasure grounds you on earth. Discipline and obedience of the divine law will save you.
By obedience of the divine law, everything else that is pure and virtuous will come to you. So it is not just simple dogma for the sake of it.
Jesus Christ is the embodiement of God in mortal form, trying to save us all, but apparently he only did it once so it's probably hard for God to descend to the physical plane.
>>24707587
Not him, but free will has always been a lie. Seriously surprised people still believe in it.
>>24707454
I don't believe in god but if your pastor can't answer that he shouldn't be a pastor. The answer requires more typing than I care to do, but the answer that the Vatican and most Catholic philosophers accept is given by saint Augustine
http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl201/modules/Philosophers/Augustine/augustine_evil.html
I don't know how accurate this article is but basically it boils down to that it allows love to exist, which is the "greatest" good. as I said, I'm an atheist but this is the Christian response.
Also don't listen to this faggot>>24707510 he has no idea what he's talking about
>>24707510
So what if it's crazy? It's still presents an alternative to God which has yet to be explained as to why it cannot be.
>>24707563
Not without taking away our free will.
Free will is the means which we use to sin, and to refrain from sinning. Although to live a sinless life is impossible, only Jesus did that. >>24707587
We make the choice, not God. God sees all our possible outcomes, God says go, He doesn't force us in how to. He advises us with His word, it's our choice to follow it.
>>24707608
Except an intelligent purposeful creator makes much more sense than something that exists within time and space yet breaks all of the laws we have come to know about it.
>>24707602
This is the answer to why evil exists if I wasnt clear
>>24707608
It's impossible to prove that something cannot be.
All watermelon is blue until you cut it open, prove me wrong.
>>24707602
Care to explain how I am wrong? Instead of ad hominem and name calling.
>>24707589
I can't really respond to this. You're just... wrong. Are you >>24707510 too?
>>24707599
How do you mean? If God doesn't exist then free will exists.
>>24707617
>god sees all our possible outcomes
Yeah but he's omniscient so he knows which one you pick. And every decision we make is because of the reactions of the environment around us and our own brains. God designed it this way. Free will can not exist under him. Nada.
>>24707602
Thanks mate.
>>24707617
I always thought that if God is all powerful, he could have created a world with free will and without sin.
>>24707597
Interesting perspective, but I disagree.
>>24707677
>If God doesn't exist then free will exists
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/
>>24707662
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
>>24707676
What else do I need to do, I stated what is accepted by most Christian philosophers and you say shit that every backwater redneck who read four pages of the bible says
>>24707677
Care to explain how I am wrong?
Your position wouldn't hold on a debate stage nor in a paper.
Yes it can.
Care to provide examples of why your position is correct?
No?
Didn't think so.
>>24707704
There is no right or wrong choice for us to make without sin. There is no good without evil.
We can't be good if there is no evil to compare goodness to.
Goodness can't exist without something that can corrupt it.
>>24707726
How so?
You haven't shown why, you are just making assertions.
Allow me to make a counter assertion, you are wrong.
Yay hur durr I win.
What a fool.
>>24707648
Again, the laws of THIS universe. Not another one with its own set of rules, which exists entirely outside of this universe. Please tell me why this is impossible, and not an alternative to God.
>>24707708
Oh. I totally understand. I guess, in that way, we do not have free will, because everything will always happen the way it will happen because of the laws of nature.
>>24707765
I literally just showed how you are wrong. When he supposedly designed the Universe he would have designed it in a fashion that we would do exactly what he knew we would already do.
>>24707704
I put a little gnosticism in my perspective.
I dont believe in the biblical hell. I am almost sure that earth is hell, and by not following the divine law jesus christ tried to teach us our souls are bound to be trapped in this realm by mean of reincarnation.
And God doesnt come in here, because it's not a matter of just moving around, it's a matter of descending a couple spiritual planes.
Follow tradition and beauty. Shun Miley Cyrus and modernity.
>>24707648
An intelligent purposeful creator breaks all of the laws we have come to know about time and space.
>>24707804
Rules to a universe
That exist outside of the Universe
In other words, don't have any effect on the Universe
Rules to a game
That can't be applied to the game
So they have no effect
Pretty simple.
>>24707813
Prove it.
Oh, wait, you can't and I already explained why you were wrong. And your response was, "you're just wrong". You're a joke.
>>24707828
No, the intelligent creator was before the laws.
Created the laws.
Exists outside of time and space.
I already explain in the thread earlier.
>>24707821
>I am almost sure that earth is hell, and by not following the divine law jesus christ tried to teach us our souls are bound to be trapped in this realm by mean of reincarnation.
>And God doesnt come in here, because it's not a matter of just moving around, it's a matter of descending a couple spiritual planes.
That's something I've never heard before. Really interesting perspective, thank you for sharing.
>>24707781
>what a fool
Maybe if you were educated in what you were talking about you would see why what your saying is wrong. You're a prime example of a NEET who thinks you can learn difficult concepts online. I was forced to go to strict Catholic schools my whole life, I've been taught just a teensy tiny bit about religion.
>>24707821
So when Jesus said that we should love each other he was commanding us to follow his orders?
I went to church with my grandma ever since I could remember. She's literally the sweetest little old lady. I will believe until I am in the grave just so I don't dissapoint her.
>>24707765
>>24707781
>>24707852
>>24707881
I
Really Hate
How
You post
Like this
>>24707870
It is proven because HE IS OMNISCIENT.
I can't believe that YOU'RE the one who just told ME to prove it. God damn.
I'm going to bed. cool discussion. it was better with OP though. way better.
>>24707910
Take notes everyone.
This is how you lose a debate.
You make baseless assertions that you are correct and your opponent is wrong, without presenting and sort of argument.
Have you considered that perhaps you are the one who didn't understand or that your view has become warped.
Anyway, show me where I was wrong.
Explain why.
In the mean time, allow me to act like you.
You are just... wrong. Because you are, you are just wrong. Deal with it.
>>24707935
I'm not sure you know what that word means.
>>24707934
It makes it easier for people to keep track.
>>24707942
Ouch. He wasn't the one who said "You are just wrong." That was me. Anyways, I mostly said that because we dived into the things you were saying earlier before you posted that and I just didn't want to talk about it any longer.
>>24707942
Look at your post about why there is evil in the world then look at mine, notice how mine is backed by one of the most credible philosopher on the subject, the one who's explanation was adequate for the likes of Thomas Aquinas. Now, look at your post, it's a simple, bastardized version of what I said which is only said to children when they ask mom why their bike was stolen. Your explanation misses the most important idea, which Is love
>>24707924
To love each others as one as ultimately we all come from the same place.
Not to all be on the same exact social level (which would only lead to destruction as we're not all equal in this realm) but to be charitable for those in need and to be compassionate. What he said. But the way we do it is out of his reach.
And to follow his teachings also, as we're directionless, trapped souls.
>>24707821
and just to back up my perspective, here's someone who fell for the devil's lies (by mean of the jews, followers of the synagogue of satan) and is bound to be trapped in here forever.
>>24707942
>>24708003
Also I wasn't the one who just flat out said "you're wrong"
>>24708003
I go further into it later.
>>24707910
hey dude I mostly agree with you but why can't someone learn difficult concepts online?
>>24708000
nice trippples
>>24704669
Sort of, more of a theist t b h. If there was a modern day crusade, I'd slaughter mudslimes without a second thought under the name of Christianity tho.
>>24708046
My bad on that one, you totally can, I'm just a bitter asshole in general. I would go to a library before looking up apologetics however
>>24707909
may it help you on your journey
Ok really fuck I need to go to bed. Wow I can't believe that I just spent so much time arguing atheism. Am I cringe? I hope not. Im so tired.
>>24708044
I remember you saying that all natural evils were caused by moral evils, again, in a very sloppy way, which simply isn't true. The only time is it true is say for instance the devastating earthquake in Turkey years ago, their building codes were the same as Los Angeles, which experienced an earthquake of the same magnitude, but with no fatalities. Which means that the buildings were built not up to code on purpose, a moral evil considering that it jeopardized people's safety. So when their earthquake hit, their moral evil caused a natural evil, but to say that famine is caused by gay marriage or whatever, or that we're being punished, isn't true whatsoever
>>24706428
>Trying to explain Aquinas to a bunch of sub 90 IQ plebs who haven't even read Aristotle or understand the metaphysical system of Aristotle/Aquinas
Why even bother? There's a good reason you don't learn Aquinas in Catholic School. It is literally too complex for idiots to understand.
>>24708159
As long as you're on the good side.
You know what Mark Twain said, never argue with stupid people as they will drag you down on their level and beat you with experience.
The only thing they understand is science and rationality. Anything else means nothing to them. I know because I used to be a staunch atheist. I stopped when I got to know about the jews, and realized there is indeed a fight going on against christianity.
World's most powerful people, all religious. You gotta wonder what they know.
Proof enough that nihilism IS the spook.
>>24708191
You do learn Aquinas in catholic school, where did you go
>>24708244
Something got to unlock in their head, the transcendal got to unlock in their head. A whole new world. An open door to a new room.
It all makes sense then.
It's not without reason they want to fuck up our pineal gland by mean of fluorided tap water.
>>24708244
besides the only reason why i got to be an atheist was because the religious teachers were boring as fuck and they arent interested in investigating and studying.
>>24708324
>>24708301
>>24708244
and now im going to bed.
>>24705878
in much the same way as a mother owes a starving child nothing
>>24708324
The problem is religion's not supposed to be interesting until after childhood. It's supposed to be an investment but schools want to coddle kids up until they hit 18 and then have them figure everything out on their own.
