Who /aphantasia/ here?
>Aphantasia is a neurological condition where a person is unable to visualise mental images
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34039054
https://www.rt.com/news/313610-mind-eye-aphantasia-scientists/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3211479/Can-t-count-sheep-imagine-faces-loved-ones-APHANTASIA-Condition-describes-people-don-t-mind-s-eye.html
Jesus christ I feel so bad for you. This isn't living.
I have had this forever. I have explicitly referred to it as 'only remembering dim contours of things'. I have often wished I remembered the face of the person I used to love.
But at least I was never retarded enough to pretend that this is anything else but a symptom of my low IQ.
>>24643569
>This isn't living.
Literally what I have been saying when describing the plight of low IQ, after which people would accuse me of defeatism, exaggeration, and suggested 'just doing your best'.
>>24643548
Jesus, that's horrible. There is no cure for it yet?
>>24643672
>>24643641
Which, of course, means one thing: that when you notice a condition of yours yourself, people will call you an exaggerating faggot, but when a scientist defines it, suddenly compassion pours in.
See >>24643697. Fuck off.
>>24643720
Well, sorry for asking.
>>24643548
I'm the complete opposite. After I took a spill, I can vividly paint images in my head but I can only "hear" faint noises upstairs. I don't hear a internal dialogue anymore. It's just like a video stream. I don't know how to explain it.
>>24643791
what does took a spill mean
>>24643641
>anything else but a symptom of my low IQ
By the way, I just thought of a joke.
What do you call a low-IQ person?A person of average or above-average intelligence who just happens to independently have dyslexia, dyscalculia, aphasia, amnesia, and aphantasia.
>>24643875
>A person of average or above-average intelligence who just happens to independently have dyslexia, dyscalculia, aphasia, amnesia, and aphantasia.
This describes me perfectly, except I also have anorgasmia. Fuck my life
>>24643832
Fell down.
>>24643791
That's fucking weird. I usually have a song going in my head, a back ground voice, my main voice of thought, and two other voices that point out flaws in my ideas.
>>24643791
I can't subvocalize, either. I've never understood those image macros that state "you read this in x's voice". I'm not entirely sure if this is a gift or an impediment.
>>24644095
An impedance if you like to read. What's more annoying is when you're reading and then your an idea takes over while you're still reading and you get to the bottom of the page and realize you comprehended nothing past the 2nd paragraph when you started thinking about mold spores.
The brain is a malleable muscle. You can learn to visualize even if you previously couldn't. I know because I was like that. I couldn't visualize shit, then once I had meditated for about two weeks, it's like I leveled up. Nowadays I can visualize anything.
One ability related to this is control of the ear-worms, music that plays in your head. Instead of being like normies "ugh this is so annoying, lady gaga playing in my head for an hour now" you have a personal mp3 player, basically. This one seems to come naturally to many autists.
> girl born with only half a brain becomes a nurse with IQ 140
> boy born with no brain at all learns to talk
>>24644310
>The brain is a malleable muscle.
This literally says nothing.
Which is why it is loved by normalfaggots like you.
It is a safe, comforting cliche you can use to shut down discussion regarding the DEGREE of malleability/improvability. You want to silence people saying that something is infeasible/unrealistic, so you convince yourself in relevance of 'it can always get better' and spam it, calling people who call you out on your pseudoscience defeatists.
>>24644356
>>24644310
Also way to go about exchanging slightly improved intentional memory for obliterated unintentional memory via 'meditation'. Retard.
>>24644310
>then once I had meditated for about two weeks
I'm gonna need a bit more info, sensei. What exactly did you do? Go into detail.
>>24644393
He thinks that just because dumb ideas now occur to him like 'hey let's stare at this tree and cram every single location of every single branch for five minutes' now come to him, which he actually might go through with because 'meditating' has convinced him that wasting one's time is fine, then this means that his memory has 'improved'.
Don't bother.
>>24644427
In other words, the only 'improvement' of his is at the expense of mind-wandering.
LITERALLY PANTS ON HEAD RETARDED
>>24643720
abloo bloo my self diagnosed autism doesn't win me oppression points
There is a reason the mental health industry practices basic gatekeeping, whether or not it is effective is a horse of a different color.9
>>24644356
I'm a firm believer in that the DEGREE of malleability is infinite, and the only thing that differs is how long it will take one to get there.
This is based both on what I've seen, and what I've personally experienced.
I'm not telling a legless person to run a marathon, like a certain normalfag a couple days ago.
> normalfaggot
Here since 2008, everythingless virgin, etc etc. I'm not being a positivityfag against reality like normies usually are. The amount of change possible is incredible.
>>24644388
>>24644427
I've encountered these anti-meditation fedoras here many times before. They have never tried it, and justify it by saying they'd somehow self-brainwash themselves into being worse. There are many paths, many approaches, and they also lead to different places, as surprising as it may sound.
> I'm in control
> I better sabotage myself
>>24644393
I started with the Silva method. It's a western, no-nonsense active meditation path. Ever since I started in 2006, I haven't had a single headache, I'm way more relaxed, and I've had various other benefits too.
Improved memory and focus are usually mentioned, but since those were already good for me, I haven't noticed a difference. My blood pressure is great, I get awesome sleep, and if I've meditated before bed, I usually have three or more extremely vivid dreams that night, and fully remember them in the morning.
>>24644635
>my self diagnosed autism
You missed the point, idiot.
I wasn't diagnosing myself with an *existent* condition; I referred to the situation where people think you're making things up, and then as soon as a scientist comes up with the idea, it suddenly becomes totally credible.
>>24644667
>I'm not being a positivityfag against reality like normies usually are. The amount of change possible is incredible.
You had anxiety and depression, too.
>There are many paths, many approaches, and they also lead to different places [...].
True, true, false.
And 'you are in control of the consequences of a practice' has been used to justify harmful practices since the dawn of religion, ever since it has been noticed that 'meditation' can make you an emotional retard. 'I-I-I just chose to end up this way, I could change the things I want to do with my life any time, I just don't want to!'
>>24643548
I'm not particularly good at visualizing things but I can do it
Everything I draw looks like shit
>>24644667
>I'm way more relaxed, and I've had various other benefits too.
Let me guess. It is caring less about 'unnecessary' things, being less argumentative 'when it's uncalled for', not getting lost in 'petty' details, stopping asking yourself 'meaningless' questions, and not pursuing 'unrealistic' goals?
'Meditating' morons. Never change.
>>24644787
In other words, a 'meditating' moron's train of thought is:
Become less motivated -> notice it -> rationalize that the things he becomes less motivated to achieve are 'objectively unimportant'.
Self-inflicted sour grapes.
>>24644855
And, of course, as soon as the moron phrases it so, everyone else jumps to try 'meditation' themselves, for who wouldn't want to let go of 'unnecessary' things? This is by definition harmless, after all!
This is the fallacy behind 'meditation'.
>>24644731
No, I didn't have anxiety, but depression yes. How is it relevant?
> comparing to religion
> when multiple double-blind studies show independent benefits
Elaborate, what do you mean by emotional retard? Unable to feel?
>>24644787
Your post could be read as "better and kinder person", though I'm sure you intended it as "passive vegetable, who doesn't strive for anything".
I'll need some examples. What do you think meditation could cause one to ignore?
>>24643548
I can't see anything at all. I always thought that when people told me to visualize things that they just wanted me to think about it. I didn't know they could actually see it in their mind. Man I feel like shit now. I actually might kill myself because of this like what the fuck.
I have it. It's no big deal. My auditory memory is superb. I can play back music in my head and imagine that people are saying whatever I want them to say in their voice. Is this standard procedure for others?
>>24644670
What's your stance on trans people, if I may ask?
>>24644947
>How is it relevant?
Every normalfag on /r9k/ has been severely depressed as well as severely anxious.
>>24644947
>multiple double-blind studies show independent benefits
100% of what studies on 'meditation' have ever proven is >>24644787 >>24644855 >>24644909 and pic related.
>What do you think meditation could cause one to ignore?
I could mention choice of hobbies, or tendency to correct others, or unwillingness to agree to disagree (all of which you'd equally wave away using free will/free thought/free desire, 'they could do it if they only chose to'), but let's limit ourselves to the most glaring irony. Awareness. Awareness of one's environment. As you go about, can you listen to the person you're talking to and at the same time hear that someone's approaching from behind and make room so they'll can pass? No study on 'meditation' has ever measured things like this and no study ever will.
>>24645013
It is not a mental illness or delusion because their conviction of being a certain gender has no physical denotation, cannot be incongruous with physical reality, and therefore is self-verifiable.
>>24645093
You're saying higher, more concentrated focus is bad? I really can't agree.
You have the impression it kills multitasking, that for example you could end up in accidents by not noticing a car because you focused on something else. That is unrelated really. Any person is capable of "losing the track of time" and missing cues from their environment if they intently focus.
If you instead mean that meditation makes one more likely to lose track of one's surroundings, I still cannot agree. Having more control over yourself lets you do that, but it also lets you do the opposite. Any predisposition will depend on the path and the person.
>>24645000
fucking nice trips my man
and yes, i can listen to whole LPs in my mind but I have problems with people's faces or drawing from memory, i don't think i have great visual memory
>>24645329
>You're saying higher, more concentrated focus is bad?
No, I'm saying what 'meditation' co-brings with it is bad. This strawman is particularly dumb since you clarified it in the very next paragraph.
>Any person is capable of "losing the track of time" and missing cues from their environment if they intently focus.
True, but irrelevant. 'Meditation' increases the tendency to enter intense focus.
>Having more control over yourself lets you do that, but it also lets you do the opposite.
Your belief in free will is coming through. In reality, there is no 'lets' just as there is no 'can'. There is just 'increases or decreases the likelihood of'. 'Meditating' morons' fallacy is, for all their dependent origination crap, belief in magical head fairy of self-control. 'Oh yes, excessive focus, lowered drive, certain interests, fret not, this all can be fixed with MORE MEDITATING and MORE SELF-CONTROL.' It doesn't work that way. 'Meditation' increases a very, very narrow subset of awareness: self-referential thoughts. Thoughts re. one's awareness suffer.
>>24645459
>Thoughts re. one's awareness suffer.
Thoughts re. one's ENVIRONMENT
>>24645459
Oh, and don't bother with 'no true meditation', as in 'no true meditator would let his awareness of his environment suffer'. It we removed all about 'meditation' that inherently harms awareness, it would just stopped being it.
>>24645459
Do you have proof? My own experience does not echo that in any way. I don't remember any case of missing a car, a person, or something else like that.
> inb4 that's proof of how deep I am in the rabbit hole - blind to my own dangers
I also can't remember losing any drive or interest. Gaining yes, it's a gateway drug to self improvement. I cannot fathom how you will turn that as bad, but no doubt you will try.
>>24645596
>Do you have proof?
Proof?
You think that something that has been pushed on the western society for decades by an enormous religious, financial, political, and ideological machine could have been, for instance, longitudinally related to choice of readership?
Also.
>>24645596
>self improvement
Here's >>24644787 >>24644855 >>24644909 again. 'I-I-everything that meditation made me embrace, it's objectively good! Sweet apples!'
>>24645596
Though I must grant you that you at least understood my argument, which is literally more than 99% of 'meditators' I talked at. Kudos, honestl.
>>24643548
Thought this would be a good thread, we had a mental visualization thread on /b/ a while back, it was pretty good until it got pruned.
Then you have these faggots:
>>24644356
>>24644388
>>24644393
>>24644427
>>24644493
>>24644635
>>24644667
>>24644670
>>24644731
>>24644787
>>24644855
>>24644909
>>24644947
>>24645093
>>24645459
>>24645596
>>24645645
Notice a change in the argument?
Notice any correlation between these posts?
I'll let you decide.
i partially lost my ability to visualize from OCD. i obsessively visualized the same things over and over again, and now the images in my mind are dark/poor quailty. i used to have an amazing imagination and very high spatial intelligence :(
>>24645892
>Notice any correlation between these posts?
Correlations are not between two or more entities, but between two properties of a set of entities.
>>24645945
>two properties of a set of entities
*two properties of entities in a set, sorry
I just realized I spent most of the day without visualizing anything. Is this normal? Somehow I get the feeling people use visual thinking a lot but it doesn't come as naturally to me.
>>24645645
Pushed? Seriously? I get mormons and Jehova's witnesses monthly. Nobody has ever pushed meditation here.
I don't blame you for doubting if it has been pushed where you live. John's Special Yoga Retreat, now only for 4999, order now, is indeed out for your cash.
>>24645676
Explain how self-improvement is bad. Earlier you said it might make me ignore something more important, but you didn't give any concrete examples, and that is still really tangential.
I get a vibe you think that it might be pushed to make the populace more placid, not resisting a change for the worse in some way. However, one such danger right now is the growing Big Brother surveillance, and many of the opponents to it meditate.
>>24645892
Not a samefag, I assure you. Two robots? Certainly.
>>24644077
I know what you're talking about since that use to be the case for me as well. Now, it's just silence aside from minor noises that I don't know how to express qualitatively.
>>24644095
I'd like to think of it more as a gift at this point. I never get lost and have an impeccable sense of direction. Also, I never forget what I see.
>>24644121
This is exactly why I cannot read fiction. My mind would start running off into weird directions or I begin fantasizing about the story itself and making it up on my own mind. I can read a technical book in a day, but I can't for the life of me finish a novel. To think, I use to want to be a writer. Now I dread the thought of it.
>>24645945
Exactly, so can you?
>>24645988
Not saying you were a samefag, just pointing out that your "partner" is clearly baiting you, ignore him and move on, people like him are why /r9k/ is going down the drain.
>>24643548
HOLY SHIT OP, I SUSPECTED THAT THIS WAS A THING. I CANT VISUALIZE SHIT
>>24643548
I can barely conjure up images in my head and hold them for more than a brief moment. I can sometimes do it with no problem in dreams. Feels like I have some awful problems concentrating.
>>24646061
No, I don't think he's baiting. I get the feel he legitimately believes it, and I wanted to hear his arguments.
>>24645988
>Nobody has ever pushed meditation here.
It's fine that you're new, but letting your newness assume things is worse.
>Explain how self-improvement is bad. Earlier you said it might make me ignore something more important, but you didn't give any concrete examples, and that is still really tangential.
>accuses of vagueness
>says 'meditation' made him self-improve
>doesn't see the vagueness of that claim IN ADDITION TO its subjectivity
>I get a vibe you think that it might be pushed to make the populace more placid, not resisting a change for the worse in some way. However, one such danger right now is the growing Big Brother surveillance, and many of the opponents to it meditate.
It definitely makes you more placid, yes. But also apt for all kinds of 'why does it matter', 'it can't be known', 'there are many factors', 'it's relative', 'it's just words', 'don't generalize', 'you can't define it anyway', 'why are you asking', 'look at your own motives', 'make something better before you criticize', 'notice how mad you are', 'why can't we just hang out peacefully', 'that's not always true', and so on.
I understand that you're going to reply to that with 'what? I said none of those things in this thread'. It's normal. It's expected.
Also, if there were a causal relationship between 'meditation' and sensing big bad evil government, I'd say it has more to do with lowered self-criticism re. one's latent paranoia, cf. 'psychedelics'.
>Two robots? Certainly.
I am a normalfag.
>>24646061
>people like him are why /r9k/ is going down the drain
What happened to 'he is SINGLE-HANDEDLY (necessarily in capital letters) resposible for /r9k/'s decline in quality'? Dropped out of vogue? Why could that be?
W-wait
This isn't normal? I always thought it was like this for everyone
>>24646202
Okay, that is just bait. Blood pressure and headaches are certainly not subjective.
> all kinds of 'why does it matter', 'it can't be known', 'there are many factors', 'it's relative', 'it's just words' ...
I fully agree with this. I think it's good, too, and yet I see why you don't. At this point, it's your fear you need to let go of.
>>24646202
There are traces and pieces of studies which hint at what is being refused to research regarding 'meditation'. Keywords are, again: >implicit learning, >psychotic breaks, >mind wandering, >false memories, >empathy, >field dependence... But this is, exactly as intended, too little for a regular reader to get the full picture. For instance, without a background in the autism spectrum, one will assume that increased empathy is a positive. And decrease in mind wandering won't concern a believer in free will who believes that one's mind can magically force itself to wander as soon as it's needed (reminder that 99.99% of the population and 99% of people who profess rejection of free will believe in it). The stranglehold is almost perfect.
I can't subvocalize too
>>24646482
>there's a worldwide conspiracy
>two posts up I was a normalfag, now I'm suddenly autistic
>>24646610
>>there's a worldwide conspiracy
Not a conspiracy, though I understand fully what traits of yours make you imply mental illness, Buddhist. As I remember one anon point out... must have been some three years ago, a common action with a common goal to obscure something needn't be orchestrated. For instance, consider intelligence. Everyone wants other people to believe that 'IQ doesn't matter'. Everyone independently obscures or dismisses studies finding it is not the case. The goal is to mutually keep each other from the crushing feel of genetic semideterminism. Many of those people are even semi-aware that they're doing this. But there has been no mastermind (to a degree); it is largely a spontaneous, evolutionary reaction. Similarly with 'meditation', which tempts people to define relaxation and preoccupation with oneself as 'increased self-awareness'
>>24646706
Please don't talk about something you know nothing about
Or
Go ask /sci/ about iq
You'll be the 50th thread that day about it and the 50th person they said it doesn't matter at all to
>>24647059
Let's play the game again.
Give me one single indicator of life success better than IQ.
>>24647078
you got to define life success family
>>24647100
Don't backpedal. It is people who say that 'IQ is doesn't matter at all' that first evoke a notion of broad success which IQ subsequently fails to give. If what you wanted to say is just that IQ is in certain relationships with certain outcomes, you would have done so. But instead, you chose to contrast 'IQ not mattering' with something else, presumably doing it. So -- what is it that 'matters' more than IQ, then?
>>24647078
Social status
Social class
How happy someone is
How many lifetime goals a person has reached
IQ is a shit measure of that. There's plenty of high IQ people who are absolute losers or working dead end jobs, even neeting.
>>24647149
>backpeddling
And you're the one moving the goalposts, trying to argue about success when people say it is a poor measure of intelligence
>>24647149
i dunno m8, I wasn't even reading your conversation. IQfags on /sci/ are the worst tho
>>24647149
>>24647100
>>24647078
In fact, I'm bored by the wait, so I'll give you a rundown of the fallacies you'd have used.
If you'd said that 'nothing matters', then your claim wouldn't have been predictive ('matters' meaning 'causes'), and so irrelevant.
If you-- a reply!
>>24647228
>plenty
Not an objective term.
>How many lifetime goals a person has reached
>How happy someone is
Not a socially meaningful measurement. NEET failures might too declare that they're happy or that they have achieved whatever they at the time of measurement declare to be a 'life goal', but such self-description hardly correlates with amount of objective mishaps and hindrances or education.
>shit measure
Not true, see below.
>status
>class
>happiness
IQ is the workhorse behind those. Control for IQ, and you'll see that people with one of those respects acquired independently fail in most others: that rich stupid people die early, healthy stupid people are objectively miserable in the sense of amount accidents and arguments, happy stupid people are poor. Only IQ predicts every single one.
>>24647474
Prove it.
Also I noticed you left out >>24647270
>>24647270
>it is a poor measure of intelligence
Wrong. The predictive breadth of a factor is as important as its depth, which deniers of IQ always conveniently ignore. 'It doesn't make me perfect in math, so it's flawed.' Ludicrous, and, as I used to say back when I still wasted my time explaining intelligence, it this fallacy only reveals how vital it really is, so to provoke such fallacies. The benefits are spread across all intellectual, creative, and social domains. There are hills and valleys, but the whole surface area of benefits is much higher in intelligent people.
>>24647548
At this point, the only fallacy for you to yet use is that of motivation/effort: free will. Go on.
>>24643548
>people can actually visualize clear images and scenes with their eyes closed
I THOUGHT THIS WAS A MEME ALL ALONG, I THOUGHT EVERYONE WOULD HAVE VISUALIZED SIMILARLY TO ME, BUT APPARENTLY I'M FUCKING RETARD
I've taken a sort of low dose of LSD before and it allowed me to visualize perfectly behind my closed eyes. If that's what it's like for the regular person I want to kill myself.
>>24643791
>I don't hear a internal dialogue anymore
That's sort of a good thing though.
I used to be able to read fast as all hell, but for some reason I started reading with my own voice in my head and I can't stop.
>>24647664
>APPARENTLY I'M FUCKING RETARD
Yes.
>>24647679
(And that's even before I noticed the typo; yes, lack of visualization implies retardation.)
>>24647270
Also, just noticed that you literally lied that I 'moved the goalposts' when my proposition to relate it to success was the first proposition to relate it to anything ITT.
>>24647628
I'm still waiting on your proof
Do the people in this thread honestly believe meditation is somehow a bad thing?
>>24648201
No.
There are n people who believe that it is good and 1 person who knows it is bad.
>>24647827
Just read anything Gardner, Goleman and Gould tell you not to read.
>>24648252
In fact,
>Jensenism -- the belief that blacks are mentally inferior to whites, based on results of intelligence tests that failed to account for such differences as test questions slanted in favor of whites, lack of cultural and educational opportunities among blacks, etc. -- Jensenist, n., adj.
Holy shit. His research accounted for exactly those things.
