I feel like /pol/ doesn't really understand the transgender debate because they only get information on it from biased conservatives and idiotic tumblr liberals that don't know how to articulate their beliefs without resorting to calling people bigots.
So I'm going to attempt to explain some misconceptions and hopefully bring some nuance to /pol/. For the sake of simplicity, I'll focus on transgender men and women and avoid talking about the "special snowflake" genders and sexual orientations.
>Transgender people ignore the fact of their biological gender
Now this is a misconception based mostly on language. Science defines "sex" and "gender" to be different things. Sex refers to a persons genes. No trans person argues that they are genetically a different sex. However, they identify as a different gender. Gender is the social roles associated with a sex. So, for example, a skirt is gendered as female in our society whereas in the Roman Empire, it was gendered male. This isn't some SJW made up bullshit, if you open a science book (biology or psychology) it will tell you the same thing. So being transgender is associating yourself with one gender in society despite you sex being a different sex.
>Transgender people are mentally ill (evidenced by their increased rates of suicide)
While it is true that trans people kill themselves much more than the national average, this isn't because they are mentally ill. Consider that one half of transexual people are vicims of sexual assault and are six times more likely to be assaulted. Consider that many groups go out of their way to make the lives of transgender people harder. This gives you an impression of how victimized this group is, hence the increased rates of suicide.
>Transgender people just want to use other peoples bathrooms to spy on them
This is wrong for a few reasons. Firstly, there are very few cases of this ever happening. It's a manufactured crisis, a rhetorical tool. Even if you pass bathroom laws, you're still forcing people who look and act like men, for example, into womens restrooms. No problem is being solved here.
>Being transgender is a new thing, a "trend"
Transgender people have always existed. The reason you're hearing so much about it now is because they're becoming visible and represented in western society for the first time in quite a while. This is just an anecdotal point, but it illustrates how old trans people are: India has a 4000 year old transgender group called "Hijras."
If you have any more greviences or questions, I'd be happy to address them. But I urge you to do your own research and think critically about this debate.
pervert activists are out in force on the interwebz today. must be some kind of GLAAD organized push. please continue to agitate, queers and queer enablers - we need to identify you.
>>71691432
Why are you so angry about trans people? I'm just trying to have an actual conversation about this issue, rather than perpetuating an echo chamber
>>71690748
Explain to me why 40% of trannys attempt suicide? These rates are on par with severe mental illness like schizophrenia. These rates are larger than those of depressed people. Depressed people literally want to die. Also the suicide rate doesn't go down remotely after transition surgery. These rates can't be attributed to bullying.
It's a mental illness. It's always been defined as one. Just because the SJWs purged all those in the medical/psychological field who disagreed with the trannie delusion doesn't change that.
>>71691730
Again, it's a combination of an extreme social stigmatization, local governments going out of their way to pass anti-transexual legislation, literally half of them being sexually assaulted, and being 6 times more likely to be assaulted. All these factors combined would easily account for hightened suicide rates.
>>71691905
What do you consider a mental illness? Define it for me
>>71692092
Not even Jews in Nazi Germany had such suicide rate. Link to the research proving your assumption or fuck off.
>>71692092
>extreme social stigmatization
a celebrity decided he was transgender and won a huge award and everyone applauded him for it. There is just as much positivity from society if not more.
>anti-tranny legislation
anti tranny laws would be like if youre a tranny then you are to be stoned to death. Saying people with penises cant use the girls bathroom is not anti tranny its pro children and women
>half of them being sexually assaulted
Id like to see a source for that. if society hates them so much why would anyone put their dick in it?
>6 times more likely to be assaulted
then explain why soldiers dont commit suicide in far higher rates. they are far more likely to be assaulted in a far more deadly manner.
>>71690767
>Transgender people just want to use other peoples bathrooms to spy on them
I think the worly is that non-Transgender people will use it as an excuse. At my university we had segregated male/female buildings nobody allowed in the other except on move in day. A middle-aged man put on makeup and a wig, told security he was a mom delivering an inhailer and installed cameras in multiple female showers.
>>71690748
>Science defines "sex" and "gender" to be different things
No, science defines sex as XX and XY. Gender is made up bullshit coming out of the flawed idea that everything about you is socially constructed rather than instinctual.
>Transgender people are mentally ill (evidenced by their increased rates of suicide)
Trans people are mentally ill because they think they are born in the wrong body. Much like how someone who thinks they are a wolf, or that they want to paralyse themselves are crackers too.
Not to mention that outside of that, they're often seriously disturbed individuals too.
>>71692271
States that are more accepting of transgender people see a much lower rate of suicide than states that are aggressive towards them.
>>71690748
I can't wait for the west to fall
>>71690748
>id is XXY
>>71693017
Soon.
They can't help it.
Cuck rationalize and retreat. Cuck rationalize and retreat. Cuck rationalize and retreat. Cuck rationalize and retreat. Cuck rationalize and retreat. Every Single Time.
>>71692925
I'm sure that mental hospitals with soft walls have even lower suicide rate.
If trannies are killing themselves at the drop of a hat then they're clearly ill.
>>71692140
A disorder of the mind that may or may not be an abnormality of the brain itself that precludes one from functioning normally socially and/or biologically.
>>71692925
when the suicide rate is 40% in mean states and 30 % in nice states it is still leagues beyond the national average of 5 %
are you going to respond to this >>71692400
or naw
>>71692400
>There is just as much positivity from society if not more
What? That is absurd. States are passing anti-transgender bills all over the United States, conservative politicians milk hatred of trans people for political points. Caitlyn Jenner won an award because people saw what she did as brave. Why? Because people overwhelmingly hate transgender people. I don't like Jenner, but it makes sense why she got the award.
http://faculty.mu.edu.sa/public/uploads/1425310920.5389violence%20transgender.pdf
>>71692791
>non-Transgender people will use it as an excuse.
Like I said, this doesn't happen often enough to warrent a law. Plus forcing trans people to use the wrong bathroom creates the exact same problem in the other direction
>>71692916
>science defines sex as XX and XY
That's exactly what I said. Gender is not "made up," again, any biology or science book will tell you this. There's nothing inherintly feminine about a skirt or dress, yet we assign these objects as "womens" clothing. Hence gender.
>>71691564
If you want a good conversation, bring up points that haven't already been discussed here a million times before.
>hurr durr sex is genes gender is identity
is literally the argument ever single trans ever uses. And they're all wrong because gender is not "the social roles associated with sex". Gender is "the state of being male or female", as defined by the Oxford Dictionary.
If that isn't what you mean by "Gender", you're using the wrong word. Find a different one.
>>71693458
>beyond the national average of 5 %
You mean 0.0126%, and that's including >her
>>71693568
okay fine society is super duper mean to trannys. care to respond to my other 3 points?
>>71691730
The literal best treatment for trans-genderism as a mental illness is to let them embrace whatever gender they desire rather than force them to try to be something else. It's a mental state of mind. They can't be "cured" in the traditional sense.
>>71692140
Bro, I'm LGBT and a trans ally but even I don't deny that transgenderism is a disorder/mental illness. It's a condition that causes people to feel so profoundly uncomfortable with their natural physical selves that many reach the point of self-mutilation or suicide. Gender dysphoria would not magically disappear even if everyone on the planet became 100% accepting of trans people. Their quality of life drops unless they have elective surgery in which they butcher perfectly healthy, functioning tissue and turn it into a crude imitation of the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.
I think they are people with an awful, pitiable disorder and deserve treatment the same way people with other mental health conditions do. Liberals are attempting to demedicalize transgenderism and it's actually really shitty. There's no reason for insurance to cover HRT/surgery if it's not a medical condition.
>>71690748
Trans and gay, are degenerate. Pushed to us by jews to normalize degeneracy, it's a slippery slope. Next up Murder, pedophilia and so on.
>I was born a murderer, so it's ok for me to kill.
No it's fucking not. Keep your stupid thoughts to yourself and don't act on them
>>71693568
>Gender is not "made up," again, any biology or science book will tell you this
It is. It came out of a sociology department about 20 years ago as a way to justify "other sexualities".
>There's nothing inherintly feminine about a skirt or dress, yet we assign these objects as "womens" clothing.
There is. They are specifically designed to enhance and show off feminine features. There are some that are purely utilitarian like a kilt, but that's the exception not the rule.
>>71693227
If you think being ostresized from society and getting raped and assaulted is "the drop of a hat," I don't know what you think is emotional trauma.
>>71693293
>that precludes one from functioning normally socially
If a trans person is simply allowed to live life as they want to (not bothering anyone), they can function fine. It's only when they're discriminated against and assaulted that this becomes a problem.
>>71693458
The fact that suicide rates drop in "nice states" should show you that this is a nurture issue, not a nature one. Just because a state doesn't pass anti-trans laws doesn't mean they're protected from the increased sexual and physical assault rates.
>>71693926
See my ID BAM! It's the truth
>>71694019
>If a trans person is simply allowed to live life as they want to (not bothering anyone), they can function fine
The simple fact that they want the world to bend over to accommodate them or else they'll kill themselves is proof that they can't.
>>71690748
You deserve the best mental health facilities and psychological treatment to protect you from yourselves.
>>71690748
>Science defines "sex" and "gender" to be different things
yeah "science" by people who chose and probably paid money to study "gender studies" or whatever the fuck pretend science they can come up with. it's like saying people who study theology agree there's a god. no shit? it's circular logic proving itself with zero evidence because "we say so".
>transgendered people are enforcing gender stereotypes.
Just because you like dolls doesnt mean you have to chop your dick off and get implants. Care to defend this one? The whole situation is hypocritical.
Also sex change regret is real and in no way does genital mutilation become acceptable behavior. It's just matter of time til someone fixes you genetic abominations with a pill
>>71690748
>Now this is a misconception based mostly on language. Science defines "sex" and "gender" to be different things.
No matter how many times you call them "social sciences" they'll never be Science.
>This isn't some SJW made up bullshit
Yes it is. The basis of your argument invalidates your assertions. Assuming that gender is made up bullshit, then transgenderism is made up bullshit. How the flying fuck do you not see the inherently paradoxical nature of transgenderism?
>>71694019
You're stupid as fuck aren't you. Swalled a blue pill from the liberals. Trans will be always killing themselves, because they do everything that comes to their mind.
> I want to be a girl, now I'm one.
>Next day I want to kill myself. Sure thing brain let's follow through on that
>>71690748
>ID: XXYtQhFm
>XXY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome
>Klinefelter syndrome or Klinefelter's syndrome (KS) (/ˈklaJnfɛltər/) also known as 47,XXY or XXY, is the set of symptoms that result from two or more X chromosomes in males.[1] The primary feature is sterility.[1] Often symptoms may be subtle and many people do not realize they are affected. Sometimes symptoms are more prominent and may include weaker muscles, greater height, poor coordination, less body hair, smaller genitals, breast growth, and less interest in sex
MEME MAGIC CONFIRMED TO BE REAL!!!
OP REVEALED TO BE GENETICALLY INFERIOR KEK WITH AN EXTRA CHROMOSOME!!!
>>71690748
> they identify as a different gender.
They are mentally ill, comparing them to an object like a skirt is actually pretty apt even though i doubt you intended that.
>>71694575
OP listen to this guy, he knows what he's talking about
"Gender" is a made-up, Marxist garbage. It's based on the Pseudo-scientific trash of "Blank Slates" that was popular when Socialists started infiltrating academia in the 40's and 50's under the orders of the Judeo-Soviet COMINTERN. Look up the father of this trash, pedophile John Money.
>>71692092
Do you have a single piece of solid evidence to back this up? Slaves were less suicidal than trannies and they had it much worse
>>71690748
If there's any point that /pol/ doesn't get it's that transgender people are about 0.00001% of the population and most don't actually want any special attention.
It doesn't affect my life if some dude wants to get his dick chopped off and call himself a girl. If he wants me to call him a she I'll do that, I'd say that's fair enough.
The religious right is a spent political force, it lost the culture war. If you want the right to stay relevant complaining about trannys is counterproductive
>>71693593
>If that isn't what you mean by "Gender", you're using the wrong word
Again, any science book will tell you the difference between gender and sex. Just because some online dictionary has ambiguous phrasing doesn't mean I'm wrong.
>>71693702
Your other points are "but trannies win awards" which ignores the popular hatred of transexual people. Another is that "soldiers don't have higher suicide rates" They do.
>>71693926
>I was born a murderer, so it's ok for me to kill.
Tell me, who do trans people murder? Who do they hurt?
>>71693986
>There is. They are specifically designed to enhance and show off feminine features
Oh so the Roman legion wore skirts to show off their womanly figures?
And you're missing my point all together. People do not choose their sex. However, when society sets up specific roles for each gender, and a person is suited to adhere to one over the other, they should be able to do so. You're assentially arguing that people shouldn't be able to wear what they want because you only like certain people to wear certain things. I don't see that as a good argument
>>71694970
>who do they murder.
You haven't read my post, did you? It's degeneracy that is slowly standardized. First gays, now trannies next murderers and paedophiles learn to read
>>71690748
>this isn't because they are mentally ill. Consider that one half of transexual people are vicims of sexual assault
even if we forget for a second that sexual abuse can trigger and cause mental instability why do you think this is?
trans people aren't particularly attractive. certainly not to the point where they'd warrant this huge spike in sexual assaults as if rapists just can't contain themselves at the sight of one.
so either:
their actions cause them to end up in such situations - not a sign of a healthy mind
they keep company that's extremely predatory - not a sign of a healthy mind
they have a vastly different idea of what a sexual assault entails - not a sign of a healthy mind
a group of people don't just have a 50% sexual assault rate for no reason and with no effect on their mental health
>>71690748
The issue is not rejected one genders behavior in favor of another, it is the fact that the rejection comes the rejection of one's own genitalia and physical condition. One can cross dress, behave opposite of their usual gender, or even prefer to be called a different pronoun. The problem is trans activist or people do not stop with this, they want to say say the words they want to be called reflect reality and the way they dress makes them equal to another sex. They want reality to reflect preferences, and while most of society is fine in indulging different behaviors or calling people by different names it will never be ok with rejecting reality completely. It is one thing to wear a dress, its another to want your dick chopped off to make you feel more comfortable. It is absolutely a mental illness when nothing less than self mutilation is the solution. Just because masculinity and femininity are social terms does not mean they have no real meaning, they are terms describing behaviors associated with real sexes and cannot simply be changed on a whim. The fact of the matter is if you inherently have an identity opposed to all of reality concerning who you are you are mentally ill
>>71694970
>Oh so the Roman legion wore skirts to show off their womanly figures?
I see you skipped the "utilitarian" part.
>However, when society sets up specific roles for each gender
Those roles are not solely the product of society. Instead they are inherent to us and society merely recognises this. Men are made to to male things; women, their thing.
>You're assentially arguing that people shouldn't be able to wear what they want because you only like certain people to wear certain things. I don't see that as a good argument
If you want to wear a dress you're free to wear a dress. This does not however mean that everyone else is barred from having their own opinions on the matter. Actions have consequences.
How exactly are they victimized outside of victimizing themselves? Who are these people that go out of their way to terrorize them?
Also your entire of noting of gender being fluid is ridiculous. For that to be true you have to believe in subjective truth. Either gender is absolute or it isn't.
IF gender can change can race change as well? Both are biological, unchangeable, and out of our control.
When 0.03% of the population behaves a way, we shouldn't automatically assume its a good thing and cling to it in some SJW manner. We should investigate it. We should be loving and caring, but not validate the delusion at hand.
If someone has bipolar disorder, we shouldn't mock and oppress them, but we shouldn't celebrate and treat them as a brave soul who simply identifies and goes through life differently than the norm. We should get them help.
Same goes for the trans issue. We shouldn't treat them like garbage. But the notion that someone can be a gender other than what they're born with is ridiculous. You MUST understand how absurd that it.
Objective logic simply cannot arrive at that conclusion.
>>71695359
OP is constantly skipping parts or skewing the words to make them mean something else, I suggest SAGE this shit and move on
>>71694157
>they want the world to bend over to accommodate them
How? Specifically what do they demand? To do the things women or men already do? There's no accomidation needed.
>>71694477
>yeah "science" by people who chose and probably paid money to study "gender studies"
If you consider biology or psychology to be "gender studies"
>>71694555
Your entire post is arguing that people shouldn't be allowed to do what they want with their own bodies.
>>71694575
>Biology is a social science
>Assuming that gender is made up bullshit, then transgenderism is made up bullshit
I never said gender is made up. It's a very real facet of our society. The roles of different genders, however, are largely arbitrary
>>71694639
Nice baseless assertions you have there. Either present a logical or statistically supported argument or stop posting.
>>71694721
>comparing them to an object like a skirt
That's not what I said. Read it again.
>>71693732
You're an idiot.
Society should all adapt just to comfort a fringe part of society.
>>71694970
>Oh so the Roman legion wore skirts to show off their womanly figures?
Confirmed for not reading his post.
>>71693986
>>There's nothing inherintly feminine about a skirt or dress, yet we assign these objects as "womens" clothing.
not to mention the fact that OP is actually trying to say that clothing, hair, and make up is what makes a person a gender. Women are so much more than that. You can't tell me that all it take to be a woman is acting and looking like one. Not exactly the most sjw position OP
>>71690748
And your evidence always weak. You use one example out of millions of people as an excuse to declare sex and gender false, when for 99.99% of all cases it absolutely lines up. The exception no matter how rare is used by SJWs and trans peoples to discard the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, pretending one rare case invalidates a trend with nearly 100% accuracy. And then it is considered bigoted are hateful to ask if there is a possibility that the cases that are huge outliers are simply mistakes or not accurate reporting
>>71694954
It does affect your life, idiot.
You don't understand how Humans work do you? If you allow one thing, thinking it's okay because it's currently insignificant, you'll realize that people will start crawling from the woodwork asking why they can't have that same thing, until it's become an epidemic like the transgender bathroom issue, and no one knows what to do. The entire reason were having a brand new problem to deal with is because people like you thought it was okay to start accepting and normalizing this shit.
As soon as something is normal, people naturally look for the next abnormal thing to make normal. It's our nature. It's a slippery slope and it's not a fallacy because that is how Humans operate. It is our function to obtain, consume, then move on. This is why trannies have such a high post-op suicide rate. They get what they thought they wanted in a sex change, but realize it's NOT what they actually wanted and kill themselves.
This is why people collect things. There's an urge to obtain a collectors item, but it disappears as soon as that item is obtained, and it then becomes about the next thing to collect.
This is why women have always been bad decision makers. They think they want something until they get it, then realize it's something else they wanted, and they hey his is done ad nauseum.
There is literally NO positive outcome or advantage to allowing controversial behavior like this. All it does is cause further issues and problems that could have easily been avoided.
>>71695500
>no accommodation needed
except for allowing grown men with penises to use the same bathrooms as little girls.
OP your autism is showing
OP:
if a gun fires 1000 bullets at a wall, and 999 of them go trough, we assume the one bullet that fails to penetrate is defunct. Not that this is just some exception to the norm but is still perfectly normal. NO,
>we assume there is a fucking problem
>>71695511
Well I suppose that since people with cancer is a minority, we shouldn't provide treatment and/or invest so many resources to find a cure.
>>71690748
>Science defines "sex" and "gender" to be different things. Sex refers to a persons genes. No trans person argues that they are genetically a different sex. However, they identify as a different gender.
"The essence of liberalism is individualism. The basis of its error is to mistake the notion of the person with that of the individual and to claim for the latter, unconditionally and according to egalitarian premises, some values that should rather be attributed solely to the former, and then only conditionally. Because of this transposition, these values are transformed into errors, or into something absurd and harmful." - Julius Evola
As always, alabama will lead the charge on civil rights and do the only sensible thing.
When the federal government came a calling, demanding alabama let the gays marry just like the straight people, Alabama did the progressive thing: we suspended all marriage licenses in a few counties. Sure, it was only temporary, but Alabama was willing to abolish the institution of marriage rather than see gay people share in it. It's the abolishing marriage part I like: government recognized marriages are a sham.
I fully expect alabama to pass a bathroom bill and get it challenged in court whenever a new justice is appointed. The bill will be struck down, and alabama will do the right thing and abolish gendered bathrooms entirely.
Alabama: we're so fucking ass backwards and prejudiced, we unintentionally implement the most progressive policies ever, decades ahead of the curve.
>>71695661
To say that the transgender issue is an "epidemic" is beyond retarded. Do you realize how small the LGBT community in the US actually is? There is zero evidence to suggest more people are gay or transexual because of the current political climate.
Trannies are far from normalized that claim is just absurd.There aren't even enough for them to ever become "normal" in that sense
>>71695222
>Muh slippery slope
"Degeneracy" isn't an argument. Try again. This time, think instead of desperately rationalizing your hatred.
>>71695247
>a group of people don't just have a 50% sexual assault rate for no reason and with no effect on their mental health
You're right on both counts. Yes there's obviously a reason for the higher sexual assault rates, but this isn't their fault (as you asserted). Rape, contrary to popular belief, is mostly about harted or power, not about sex. It makes sense that such a hated group would see more sexual assault. There's a lot of research on this, if you care to look it up.
>>71695351
>its another to want your dick chopped off to make you feel more comfortable
Again, why the fuck do you care so much? This isn't hurting you in any way.
>>71695359
>If you want to wear a dress you're free to wear a dress. This does not however mean that everyone else is barred from having their own opinions on the matter
When you say "you're free to wear a dress," you're kind of ignoring all the laws passed to penilize people for doing exactly that. No one is trying to force you to have a different opinion.
>>71695366
Read the thread.
>>71695491
I'm trying to balance multiple conversations with a hostile audience. Sorry if I'm not responding to every single word of your posts
>>71695934
Oh cancer? As in an illness that needs treatment? Not I totally agree with you that we should help them.
But if cancer patients began flaunting their disease, identifying as a "cancerous" and requesting backwards privileges, you would call that absurd, and all the while being loving, never validate their delusion.
>>71690748
CHINA TESTS NEW NUKE
>>71690748
>>71690748
>Science defines "sex" and "gender" to be different things
And people want bathrooms separated by sex. Is this so fucking hard to understand?
>>71696299
>When you say "you're free to wear a dress," you're kind of ignoring all the laws passed to penilize people for doing exactly that.
There are no laws that I am aware of that ban you from wearing a dress. People do it for Halloween and shit all the time.
OP is getting wrecked. /pol/ did it again.
>>71690767
>If you have any more greviences or questions, I'd be happy to address them.
How do a get a piece of your sweet ass?
>>71695694
>Hurr durr muh little girls
Again, this is a non issue. There has never been a case of a transgender person molesting a child in a bathroom.
And you realize that if you make a transgender man use his "genetic bathroom," you'dhave a grown man with a penis in the womens restroom? See how your argument doesn't make sense?
>>71695634
What evidence is weak exactly? What example am I using?
>>71695661
>Muh slippery slope
>>71695929
>Being different is the same as being defective
Again, a mental illness is defined as mentally devient and hurtful behavior. Transgender people don't harm anyone by virtue of being transgender.
>>71690767
We don't care about actual trannies using bathrooms. Men who fake being trans are the problem.
>>71696328
Well, I feel as if the backwards privileges of the trans-gendered, stop being backwards with the very nature of their disease. There is no cure for trans-genderism and letting them identify as whatever the fuck allows them a chance to live their lives as stable and (hopefully) productive members of society.
>>71695500
>claims transgenderism is a function of biology
>then immediately appeals to sociological roles
>>71690748
>Check out pol
>First thread is on trannies
Welp.
>>71696158
You've completely missed the point and as usual, think in limited scopes.
I'm talking about the future, and how now is related to it, not about the situation currently, per say.
I said it will become an epidemic and yhe starting point is the transgender bathroom issue. This is a new problem that society now has to deal with because people giving in and giving an inch, when we all know they're gonna take a mile.
I do realize how small transgendered people are as a group, and the fact that such a small group is making national news with an agenda to make the 99% of us who are normal, accept these extreme minority freaks as if they are large enough to warrant an entire culture shift, is proof that the slippery slope really will make you slip and fall.
More people are transgendered and gay now, because with globalism and Internet anonymity, every tom, dick, and Jane can voice their retarded opinions, whereas before, they were forced to keep that shit to themselves where it belongs.
That's the point. That's the argument. ANY amount of public acceptance WILL be taken too far. ANY line society puts up, these types of people want to challenge and cross.
You're arguing that theres no enough of them to be normalized, and I'm arguing that that is a myopic and limited view because eventually they WILL be large enough to be normalized, and the only reason they're getting bigger is because it is allowed.
>>71695500
>Do what they want with their bodies.
I don't know anon, if someone wanted to suicide in front of me or cut his own arm, leg, member, I would most likely stop him/her out of human solidarity. What is more important, muh feelings, or human integrity?
>>71696864
>denying that the slippery slope is real
The evidence is all around you. We wouldn't be having this thread about a transgender bathroom problem if the slippery slope wasn't true.
>>71697045
Wanting to be considered a chick is not comparable as fuckin suicide man.
>>71697175
It is when you realize that the desire to become a female is a fleeting one that the person will regret once it's achieved, and the commit suicide anyway.
It's the same end result. You're just happy if the person mutilated their body beforehand, for some weird reason.
Please not that OP has posted absolutely fucking ZERO sources to backup this bullshit.
>>71696864
>And you realize that if you make a transgender man use his "genetic bathroom," you'dhave a grown man with a penis in the womens restroom?
The vast majority of FtMs keep their vaginas. As the saying goes, it's easier to dig a hole than build a pole. Metoidioplasty/phalloplasties are insanely expensive and still look fucking hideous, and the latter can't even get erect.
>>71696899
See
>>71696864
>>71696942
I said biology defines gender and sex differently. Gender is the sociological roles of different sexes.
>>71697025
Slippery slope argument isn't really an argument
>>71697045
But they're not killing themselves or cutting off an essential limb. Would you stop someone from getting cosmetic surgery?
>>71697025
That's a fair point. I guess I interpret it a different way though. I get the impression the modern Left is primarily mobilized by resistance towards it. That it is fundamentally an inferiority-complex based ideology. Trump mentioning the flaws of the North Carolina law was a genius move because it robbed the left of its ammo to discredit him.
If you don't give the Left the caricatured strawman it wants to argue against than it can't argue at all and these issues collapse entirely.
>>71696864
except they wouldn't actually have a penis, because its really a woman.
Nice try. too bad logic is against you
>>71697131
So we shouldn't allow people to do something they have a right to do because of slippery slope? Fine, you're not allowed to own guns because that's a slippery slope to starting a war
>>71697302
Do you have any evidence of this or are you making baseless assumptions?
>>71697348
What do you want a source for? Point out any statement that has data and I'll provide it.
>>71697379
>You can't molest children without a dick
>>71697398
>I said biology defines gender and sex differently.
No it does not.
>Slippery slope argument isn't really an argument
The slippery slope fallacy is that A leads to B with no evidence of it doing so or evidence that it is happening. The increasing number of letters being added to LGBTWTFBBQ suggests that this train's not stopping.
>But they're not killing themselves or cutting off an essential limb. Would you stop someone from getting cosmetic surgery?
You are literally cutting off otherwise perfectly functional organs m8...
>>71690748
>Science defines "sex" and "gender" to be different things.
No it doesn't. Psychologists do, and they aren't scientists. Actual human biologists don't recognize the existence of a separate "gender" at all, beyond the typical behavioral patterns associated with sex (many of which absolutely ARE a result of physiology, not just social conditioning). In other words, a person who's personality is abnormal given their sex is just at the tail end of a bell curve, not an entirely different "kind" of person. Which is true.
That being said, gender dysphoria is a real and neurologically based disease. What it is, is a neurological malformation which results in a physical feeling of unease or even disgust in relation to sexual development and anatomy. What it is not, is being "a woman trapped in a man's body" or vice versa.
>While it is true that trans people kill themselves much more than the national average, this isn't because they are mentally ill.
But it is. Typically suicide is a result of mental breakdown as a result of the constant negative feeling they have about their own body because their brains are literally wired wrong. Shame and/or bullying being contributing factors but a distant second.
>>Transgender people just want to use other peoples bathrooms to spy on them
Nobody said this. They said some would. And that some people would use the rule as an excuse to PRETEND to be a tranny for the sake of voyeurism or, potentially, sexual assault. It's balancing the safety of children over the comfort of benign trannies.
>>71697302
There is tons and tons of therapy and other bullshit that comes along with becoming trans-gender. You can't just get a vagina willy-nilly out of nowhere. There are screenings and many studies that indicate that if the feeling of trans-genderism continue past the adolescent age, then that person probably has the disease on a level that warrants being considered someone of the opposite sex. There are regulations for these things.
>>71697660
Oh logic is against me? Please explain to me how you can only molest people if you have a dick. I'll wait.
>>71697398
>I said biology defines gender and sex differently.
Biology does no such thing. Biology is not the study of human gender identity any more than it is the study of human religion or human politics. Whatever "science" you think backs up your argument, it's not biology.
>>71697398
>an argument isn't really an argument
>an apple isn't really an apple
Cmon, retard. Come up with a counter point instead of blindly dismissing it.
You literally have nothing, NOTHING positive to back up your arguments. There is no good outcome from what you're arguing. Not a thing. Only problems and only conflict.
So I ask, why are you a harbinger of conflict? Why must you argue for more problems we have to deal with?
>>71696864
>Again, a mental illness is defined as mentally devient and hurtful behavior.
>A mental illness is a condition that impacts a person's thinking, feeling or mood and may affect his or her ability to relate to others and function on a daily basis.
>any of various disorders in which a person's thoughts, emotions, or behaviour are so abnormal as to cause suffering to himself, herself, or other people
You really think this doesn't encompass transgendered people, and that the suffering they experience is 100% socially-inflicted?
>>71692925
That's because states that are more tolerant of them are also states where they can more easily get HRT, which subdues the physical sensations associated with gender dysphoria.
>>71697747
>Asking why we argue socio-political issues on /pol/.
Are you serious?
>>71696864
>And you realize that if you make a transgender man use his "genetic bathroom," you'd have a grown man with a penis in the womens restroom? See how your argument doesn't make sense?
It has not been, nor will it ever be, the responsibility of the public to accommodate delusional individuals that indulge in extreme body modifications.
>Transgender people don't harm anyone by virtue of being transgender.
See, this is where the whole "it doesn't affect you" shit falls apart. Normalizing transgenderism and LGBT shit in general has an effect on society as a whole. The mechanisms behind transgenderism aren't well understood at this point and it's entirely possible that many cases are the result of differences in childhood environment, that growing up in a place that actively encourages the questioning of gender identity can cause individuals, who would otherwise be normal, to end up as trannies.
Also, just as an aside, slippery slopes are a real thing. As a current example, look at the initial efforts at normalizing pedophilia that have cropped up over the last year.
>>71697673
>moving the goalpost
I'm not concerned about trans people molesting children in public bathrooms, I'm pointing out that your counterargument was retarded.
>>71696864
>Again, this is a non issue. There has never been a case of a transgender person molesting a child in a bathroom.
No doubt in part because in general they are still relegated to use the bathroom for their proper sex.
This is like people pointing out that statistically, muslims aren't a big problem in america. Ignoring that this is because they themselves are demographically rare, and as such, it would be a good idea to keep it that way.
>>71697701
Here's how your argument breaks down:
>"No it doesnt!"
>"Slippery slope is real! Just look at the letters!"
>"They're not allowed to have cosmetic surgery bc it makes me mad!"
>>71697721
>"Psychology isn't a science!"
>Shame and/or bullying being contributing factors but a distant second.
How about rape and assault compounding those issues?
>It's balancing the safety of children
Find me a single case of a transgender person molesting a child in a bathroom
>>71690748
>Now this is a misconception based mostly on language.
That's a very fucking bad place to start since you can re-labeling something doesn't change the meaning of it.
>Sex refers to a persons genes.
Water is wet.
>However, they identify as a different gender
See this is where you are wrong. You can have guys that act feminine or females acting masculine. Trannies identify themselves as a different sex all together, it goes above and beyond gender.
>This isn't some SJW made up bullshit
When you put a magnifying glass to anything for long enough you can. SJW views have the same weight as fags that watch the same movies and see symbolism everywhere.
>While it is true that trans people kill themselves much more than the national average, this isn't because they are mentally ill.
Yes it really is. You liberal shills are encouraging them, ironically this leads to them suicide which is what /pol/ wants.
>Consider that one half of transexual people are vicims of sexual assault
Meaning what? Depending on what your definition of sexual assault is, it can be as low as 10% or as high as 50% of people experience a sexual assault in their lives. However, it is agreed that most of these assaults happen in childhood (5-15). Trans are estimated to be less than 0.3 of the population in the US. The % of people that are fags or lesbos is much higher.
This argument is seriously grasping at straws. People like you WANT transgenderism to be valid while making up bullshit. This wouldn't be so bad if the shit tier thinking that is applied to trannies is being applied at all levels of society today.
Also /pol/ hates trannies and fags because it's a non-issue that progressive liberals treat as if it were as important as the economy or national security.
>>71697673
>So we shouldn't allow people to do something they have a right to do because of slippery slope?
They don't have a right to do it. That's why this is a problem. You think freedom means the ability to just do anything you want, and there'll be no consequences? Freedom is the ability to make choices without being punished for simply making a choice. You still have to deal with the consequences of that choice. It's not just inherently a positive thing.
There are certain limits, certain lines that are put up to not be crossed for reasonable reasons. Human nature is to defy and it is foolish to assume it won't happen. It's far more logical to just assume it always will happen.
You can't compare this to guns either, because gun owners aren't a group defined by a shared mental disorder. If they were, your point would mean something.
These people should not be allowed to do these things because it's encouraging a mentall illness that is incredibly rare and not worth pandering to for a large variety of reasons.
My evidence is the post-OP tranny suicide rate. It's pretty obvious most of them realize they dun goofd.
>>71698084
Cool, so you didn't actually address the point that psychology isn't a natural science and it especially isn't biology. How's that reproducibility doing?
Here:
>>71697398
>I said biology defines gender and sex differently. Gender is the sociological roles of different sexes.
It's okay to be wrong, or to type something you didn't think out fully. I forgive you.
Any way we could increase the trans suicide rate to 100%? I feel like that would solve a lot of problems...
>>71698084
Do I need to talk to you like you're 12?
Biology, as in the science, does not recognise a difference between sex and gender. That's purely a creation of the social sciences.
That the groups involved with trying to advocate for gay rights are getting ever more extreme in who they are advocating for and show no signs of stopping is more than enough reason to be concerned.
You said that they were not cutting off an essential limb. They literally are, in so much as any body part is essential outside of those directly responsible for homeostasis.
>>71698084
>How about rape and assault compounding those issues?
Already accounted for. It's the neurological condition itself which is the greatest cause of gender dysphoria suicide.
HRT helps to alleviate these symptoms, thankfully. But SRS doesn't offer any additional benefit.
>Find me a single case of a transgender person molesting a child in a bathroom
They don't exist, at least in part because of existing law. The fact that it's not a problem now means that what we're doing is working. That being said, it's not just transgender people that have to be worried about, it's people PRETENDING to be.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/sexual-predator-jailed-after-claiming-to-be-transgender-in-order-to-assault
>>71697960
>No doubt in part because in general they are still relegated to use the bathroom for their proper sex.
But that's fucking wrong, idiot. When is the last time you saw a bathroom official checking for gender at the door?
>>71697900
You're literally just arguing muh feels
>>71697841
Missing the point.
>>71698565
>But that's fucking wrong, idiot. When is the last time you saw a bathroom official checking for gender at the door?
You don't need a bouncer for a rule to have an effect. Merely wanting to avoid suspicion can be a strong motivator.
>Missing the point.
No, you are. It's not the "abuse" of trannies (which you are seriously over blowing, at least at this point in time) which leads to their demise, but a physiological consequence of their neurology, which can be alleviated by HRT.
>>71697883
I'm asking why you're on the side that only wants bad shit to be the outcome? Are you a nihilist? Do you legit not give a shit about Humanity and our existence as a species? Our future and it's place? Are you a sociopath? Are you incredibly selfish? Why?
I'm asking for your reasoning behind your illogical stance.
Not why do "we" argue, why are "you" arguing this?
>>71690767
>Even if you pass bathroom laws, you're still forcing people who look and act like men, for example, into womens restrooms. No problem is being solved here.
This is gonna fix itself when enough sexual assaults, awkward looks, and eye-meeting through bathroom slits happen. I also cannot fucking wait to read the headline when some trannie that looks like a women takes a piss in a urinal and someone's kid asks daddy "dad i saw a woman with a penis today, did my health teacher lie to me?"
Doesn't matter how you repackage this bullshit. A spoiled fucking minority pushing this sort of agenda is going to lose. $20,000 surgery ain't cheap, notice how trannies are always people that have rich parents or are wealthy themselves to afford the experiment.
This is literally fashion trend morality, you retards believe this because it's different and has all sorts of mystery that cannot be quantified, but what little you can quantify is suddenly taken as hard proof.
Transgenderism is degenerate as fuck.
Also, pedophilia has always existed too. Doesn't mean we should ever accept it.
Well everyone, this has been fun, but I have a date to get ready for. Enjoy being sad, pathetic angry reatards on the internet. And remember, liberalism is happening weather you like it or not. Peace.
>>71698897
Enjoy your "girlfriend's" dick in your ass.
>>71698897
More like "I just got wrecked and am now running away to go cry in a cupboard somewhere".
Why respond to this clear attempt at creating another non-issue by a hillary shill?
You guys get that's what this is right?
>>71698897
Do your research next time before you come trying to start a discussion. I'm on your side, but you're so piss-poor at debating that I couldn't support you. Learn the facts before you take a stance rather than just parroting popular liberal stances.
>>71692092
>muh victim complex
Trannies are weak people who can't deal with reality so they act out to obtain pity points. You're all pathetic
>>71690748
>No trans person argues that they are genetically a different sex.
They literally do though.
>So being transgender is associating yourself with one gender in society despite you sex being a different sex.
Then why do they cut their dicks off and pump themselves full of estrogen?
>they kill themselves because they're assaulted
You are fucking retarded. No one kills themselves because "someone was mean to me once!"
They kill themselves because they are inherently unhappy with who they are.
This is why the rates of suicide go up after reassignment surgery
Before surgery they have hope; "once I get the surgery I'll be a real girl and finally feel good"
When that doesn't happen they are still miserable and on top of that they now have no hope and nothing to look forward to.
>>71698826
>OMG BAD OUTCOMES
>NIHILISM
Because decisions have consequences that can be good or bad?
Are you seriously this naive?
>Not why do "we" argue, why are "you" arguing this?
Transgenderism is degenerate and /pol/ will explain to you why, doesn't mean you'll like it.
desu, no argument can be made to refute the unfalsifiable. If you think this is the same as "OMG THEN I'M RIGHT" I suggest you look up the actual definition of science.
>>71699046
It's already a real life issue and it keeps escalating. Ignoring problems doesn't solve them. Confronting them does.
>>71698826
Because it is all about perspective Anon. Both sides believe they are right for completely valid reasons. If there is no difference of views you will fall into the trap of buying into one POV too much. It prevents one from looking at a larger scale. If I was a bit younger and a more radical leftist, I would ask the same questions to you because I would've considered all those questions you asked me as applicable to you as well. Left or right, one always believe their side is correct.
>>71690748
>I feel like /pol/ doesn't really understand ... resorting to calling people bigots.
Probably true, but personally I come here for the anti echo chamber.
>Now this is a misconception based mostly on language. Science defines "sex" and "gender" to be different things.
To some of us, science and language change our entire belief about reality. It's almost the culture here to rely on reason and so when we're given statistics, graphs, hard facts or just really logical arguments, we believe to them. This is contrary to tumblr, which requires really emotional arguments. That's a fallacy here.
>However, they identify as a different gender. Gender is the social roles associated with a sex. ... So being transgender is associating yourself with one gender in society despite you sex being a different sex.
So what I'm getting here is that these people object to masculine roles in society, which after feminism and their complete inability to face of recognise the "disposable man" problem, that's not hard to understand.
But that's just the challenges you were given, it's cowardice to back out in any way and to do so by choosing an entirely different role seems insane, it's rejecting reality.
>While it is true that trans people kill themselves much more than the national average, this isn't because ... make the lives of transgender people harder. This give you an impression of how victimized this group is, hence the increased rates of suicide.
If trans are medically ill, they have a medical reason to use drugs (such as hormones) for prolonged periods of time. Hey I'm medically ill too.
If trans are not medically ill, it negates transsexualism all the way down to fetishism, exactly how I made it out about rejecting challenges.
It's sad that trans are targeted for violence, in the end that's just humans though. They attack what's different, I've known that my entire life as well and it wasn't a gender dysphoric decision for me
"Identity" is a social construct. While historically, people have been recognized by their birth name, there are those with Identity Dysphoria. They are deeply dissatisfied with their prescribed identity and prefer to be addressed by another identity.
I suffer from ID, and I identify as Napoleon Bonaparte. Historically, there have been many others like me who have been marginalized, institutionalized, and oppressed as "mentally ill".
Society at large must learn to accommodate people like me in order to prevent myself and others like me from being marginalized an oppressed.
My preferred pronouns are Monsieur, je, tu, il, nous, vous, ils. I will soon be receiving identity reassignment surgery. Even though I am over 6 feet tall, I will have my legs shortened in order to be 5'7 as Napoleon was. I will also start dressing in his traditional uniform.
I'm grateful to live in a time where there is developing tolerance for those like me, but there is much work to be done. Please, out of respect, use my preferred pronouns and my preferred name.
With love,
Napoleon Bonaparte
>>71690748
Poor OP, he's going to have a hell of a time managing this thread.
>>71699450
saved
>>71699366
there is very little chance of eradicating the tranny problem completely.
the only logical outcome is to give the trannies everything they want.
by playing into the narrative in any way whatsoever, you've lost.
>have you ever had a FtM tranny take a piss in the bathroom you were using?
>how did you know?
its a fucking non-issue.
>divide and conquer
Transgender mtf here
>Now this is a misconception based mostly on language. Science defines "sex" and "gender" to be different things.
This is an argument of semantics and has little to no relevance in real world practice.
>Transgender people are mentally ill
While it's true transgender people probably do have some sort of mental illness it's incredibly difficult to take any sort of "diagnosis" seriously as psychology is a pseudo-science ran by kikes to sell the masses happy pills.
But it would be insane to call me perfectly sane for wanting to become a woman.
>Transgender people just want to use other peoples bathrooms to spy on them
This entire thing is a non-issue if you pass as a woman. If you don't pass as a woman don't go out in public as one. You are simply a cross-dressing ugly man. Fuck off and stop mis-representing trans people you ugly shits.
>Being transgender is a new thing, a "trend"
This is also true. All these ugly men in their 40's suddenly transitioning are simply doing it because they are faggots. If they were truly 100% trans and suffered from crippling dysphoria they would have killed themselves before hitting 30.
Hons need to fuck off already and die REEEEEEEEEE
>>71692092
They have a high rate of being assaulted because they are extremely disproportionately prostitutes. There aren't gangs of bigots going around attacking trannies. They are overwhelmingly prostitutes because it's a sexual fetish run amok.
>>71699681
>Transgender mtf
I don't know what that is, can you use a normal non-tumblr word?
>>71699776
Male to female.
>>71693044
Witnessed.
>>71699776
That's not a tumblr word. You know what a transgender person is correct? Mtf stands for male to female.
I was just trying to give an objective definition so things would be more clear. I'm fine with calling myself a tranny or ladyboy or whatever the fuck as well.
>>71699892
are a minority? I'm in favor of castration of minorities
>>71699681
>This entire thing is a non-issue if you pass as a woman. If you don't pass as a woman don't go out in public as one. You are simply a cross-dressing ugly man. Fuck off and stop mis-representing trans people you ugly shits.
Thank you, based transwoman.
I have empathy for yall but anyone who lives in the real world, knows that passable trans already DO use the bathroom they want, and nonpassables are the only one who will benefit from this.
Maybe not immediately, but within 5 years there absolutely will be men, not transwomen, men, using it as an excuse to go in the women's restrooms.
At the same time we're importing mass amounts of rape-kebabs. What the fuck is wrong with us? If you pass, get a pass, if you don't, fuck off.
And FUCK nonbinary/enby/genderqueer fucks. I hate ALL of them.
>>71699681
Assuming you're legit, have you had HRT, and if so, does the idea of a personal "female" identity actually matter to you, or was seeking treatment merely trying to get comfortable with your own skin?
I believe a large part of the problems today is rooted in the notion that a person with gender dysphoria actually is "mentally" the other sex, rather than simply a far from average specimen of their actual sex.
>>71699570
I'm not asking for straight out eradication. I'm asking for a complete full stop of encouragement.
>the only logical solution is to give trannies whatever they want
No. You never negotiate or give an inch to people like this. They will always take a mile, always demand more, more, more.
The real only solution is to just ignore their desires, and give them what they need, which is therapy.
Human beings only think the know what they desire, until they get it.
It's the oldest fucking story ever.
Top kek, OP left finally
>>71700111
>have you had HRT
yeh
I want to look like and be treated like a girl. I've stopped delving into existentialism and trying to understand where these desires come from because I don't care anymore. It could be from some deprived sexual fantasies or other mental fuckery, or from neurological disorders, or a million other nature vs. nurture shit.
But what I know as fact is that once you pass successfully and look like a woman society treats you like one. There's no need to force society to like you with laws. Men will flirt with you and you can use the washrooms without issue.
So yeah, the female "identity" matters to me but I'm too self-aware to make a fuss about it. It's not the end of the world if someone calls me a man out of spite, even though the reality is that no one ever would because no one knows I'm biologically a man anyways.
This entire thing boils down to ugly pathetic beta men trying to weasel their way into getting to live life on easy mode and ruining our image by doing so.
>>71700224
Bro, short of checking everyone in the men's room for a dick, there is no way to know who is really a man.
As for MtF's, ask the leaf tranny is it prefers pussy or dick. To think that it will go into the women's room and start fapping to women taking a shit is absurd.
The only people willing to dress up like women so they can fap in the women's room are fucking degenerate perverts.
The law isn't the issue, the degenerate perverts are. If the law was to blame we would be able to blame gun deaths on the second amendment.
Your argument for more laws to protect you from the trannies seems to be coming from an authoritarian bootlicker place. Do you really think there should be cop outside bathrooms checking everyone junk before they can enter?
>>71700837
What do you think inspires you more, actually feeling like a woman in the identity sense, or just feeling like it's much easier or more fun to exist than how it used to be?
>>71700840
>Bro, short of checking everyone in the men's room for a dick, there is no way to know who is really a man.
Trannies, especially MTF, don't usually pass. And those that don't are the ones people do, and should, worry most about, because they are more likely to be simple deviants instead of people with actual gender dysphoria
>>71701090
So we need cops outside bathrooms checking everyone junk before they enter.
Got it.
Maybe he can frisk you while he's at it.
>>71701018
Probably the latter. No one has expectations of me anymore. I think being able to live an easier more enjoyable life is actually sort of an inherent part of female identity though.
But I mostly just get my kicks out of men giving me attention.
If the tranny can piss at the Urinal, i would have no problem
>real women don't want trannies in their bathrooms
>real men don't want trannies in their bathrooms
>trannies don't understand the irony and hypocrisy of forcing people to adhere to their own standards of gender
>>71701923
>i don't want nigger in my country
>i don't want spics in my country
>niggers and spics don't understand the irony and hypocrisy of forcing people to adhere to their racial views.
wew lad
>>71690748
>Gender is the social roles associated with a sex.
no. thats called "gender roles" or being "normal".
you idiots change the meaning of words to push your bullshit.
I dont care to understand it. I wish you and your ilk would fuck off forever.
