Conservatism appeals to the common man but works against him.
Marxism works in favour of the common man but alienates him.
agree/disagree? & why
>Marxism works
Let me stop you there, m8.
>>81440167
>Americans in charge of instructing their children in basic reading comprehension.
i don't really see how conservatism works against the common man. maybe capitalism.
>Marxism works in favour of the common man
>Conservatism works against him
wut
>>81440328
>>81440101
>Zizek
>Dawkins
>This much autism packed into one poster
>>81440101
Marxism works against everything that humans are and ultimately destroys any humanity a person has left.
On the other hand it does inflame the desire for change within the hearts of men so it's not entirely toxic for everyone.
Marxism == jewish conspiracy to destroy the aristocracy
>>81440101
Marxism works in my favour by turning me into a common paste for industrial Goverment use?
>>81440101
I think you have that backwards, friendo.
>>81440101
>Marxism works in favour of the common man
u wot m8?
>>81441290
Yeah, you kind of fucked up on this one OP. Many more arguments for the exact opposite of your statement.
Marxism has never been a legitimate ideology.
It's 100% pipedreams to lure in useful idiots to fight for you, and will only ever benefit a small oligarchy.
Eliminate stronger groups by turning weaker groups against them.
Yuri Bezmenov (on youtube) is obligatory viewing.
>>81441125
and kill millions of goyim, and take over the world
So you all just argue with meme arrows here?
Care to refute my claim with some solid arguments? My proposition:
Conservatism often appeals to the common man with simple rhetoric which, rightly or wrongly, has a vast appeal. For example, anti-immigration, traditionalism etc. That's not to say that conservatism is wrong, only that it has direct, shall we say immediate, appeal.
Let us say the King is the King because he has been appointed King. His purpose is to rule because he is the next in a lineage of Kings. This is a relatively straightforward concept.
Marxism (Marxism is a critical lens; not necessarily communism) often manifests itself in abstruse language which alienates the common man. It deals in deconstruction, not reaffirmation of "inherent truths" as conservatism does.
Let us say that the King is the King ONLY insofar as we willingly confer him that power. He operates as a King only through his insignia (the crown being the most obvious example.)
In the second example, we're stepping into the realm of the theoretical. It seems to us an intellectual exercise, and maybe we can suspend our disbelief for a moment but in the end the King is still the King.
>>81442099
>will only ever benefit a small oligarchy
usually a FOREIGN oligarchy also
>>81442184
>>81442184
Agreed. It is a shame that this name isn't commonly known and respected.
>>81442884
>>81442884
You're not speaking anything I haven't heard before, but I reject communism because it inevitably is coupled with accepting attitudes towards polyracialism I cannot accept. Monoracial or bust. Fuck off.
>>81445025
>polyracialism I cannot accept.
Why (genuinely)?
>>81445244
I love. And I have loved. I have loved several members of my family who have passed away, I love some beautiful White children and hope they'll grow up in a much better America than what exists right now.
I love the genius of men like Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Voltaire,
and many others, including David Duke. I love the great classical composers and the beautiful music they have given to the world. There is much that I love. And much of what I love has been, or is being, destroyed.
I also hate. I hate what is happening to all White People in all White Countries. I hate Cultural Marxism (Political Correctness) I hate multiculturalism (polyracialism), I hate miscegnation (race-mixing). I hate to see White women pushing a baby carriage that contains a little Black creature. I hate to witness the end of the Greatest Race in history.
I hate graffiti. I hate drugs. I hate ugliness. I hate having Jews control the media amd the Country. I hate having Jews control the Federal Reserve.
I hate all that is false and ugly.
I love all that is true and beautiful.
That is why I CAN NOT GIVE UP!
>>81440101
My Ideology both appeals to the common man and works in favour of the common man but removes the man from the equation.
>Be Me
>Writing My Manifesto
>Publishing it in about 3 months
>Title would be about workers struggle
>Screencap this to get the book for free
what most works for the common man would be anti-immigration cultural/social conservatism and fiscally liberal market capitalism combined with strong protections for labor unions and tariffs to protect domestic industry.
unfortunately, this is the combination of policy that the (((global elites))) LEAST want to happen, because they know it's the greatest threat to their power.
>>81445244
Because the nigger is imbued with a nature that drives him to construct a vile, repulsive, disgusting, and putrid culture around him that represents the absolute worst of humanity. He sows chaos, insecurity, and terror. He threatens white existence wherever he is.
So too does this apply to Arabs and spics. Jews, the Ashkenazim, are very intelligent, more intelligent than whites, but they are hellbent on dragging humanity through the mud and stripping us of any dignity. Only East-Asians are our true brothers and equals, joined by a bond of culture and civilization.
However, capitalism is my enemy. It allows much of this to occur, and worse still, encourages it. People will inevitably be denigrated and reduced to filthy animals under capitalism. However, just because capitalism is my enemy, does not mean communism is my friend.
>>81445460
This man also expresses my sentiments well.
Qualify both of your statements rigorously or fuck off.
There is zero sense in which Marxism works, for anyone, least of all the common man.
>>81442884
You realize you're trying to have a philosophical discussion with uneducated retards, don't you? Your words have too many syllables and are not packaged in comic strip word bubbles.
>>81440101
The Torah Party loves money more than their own people. But not as much as they like to dress up as women, and suck each other off.
The common Man recoils in horror at such degeneracy.
>>81440101
Honestly zizek is pretty based if you actually read him. Most people on /pol/ would agree with a lot of things he says and he real hates the modern day left.
>>81440101
National socialism lifts him up and deports the shitskins.
Conservatism is generally about stability loyalty and trust. This is great for the common man. Marxism is about whining constantly. This is terrible for the common man.
>>81445460
So, without wishing to offend you, would you admit that your position is essentially an appeal to emotion instead of logic?
>>81445938
Same for you. Your hilarious impression of pre-1940s racist rally speech would suggest so.
>>81446407
I know but how else will they learn? Isn't there supposed to be a /leftypol/ here too?
>>81447138
Agreed. Zizek I think represents the last chance for the left to save itself. Liberalism has pushed lots of people (/pol/ included) to move to the right of the political spectrum out of spite.
>>81447501
How could we possibly benefit from polyracialism? I don't care about them, I care about my group and that's it. I don't feel one fucking iota of charity or empathy towards darkskins. Anything the darkskins have contributed in the last 500 years I could do without if it meant they would no longer be a menace to us. I'd even give up jazz and Alexander Dumas.
>>81440101
>Marxism works in favour of the common man
Sniff
Sniff
>>81449079
more zizek memes pls
worlds best marxist
>>81449218
z i z e k w a v e
>>81440101
Conservatism = keep culture & tradition easily, everybody less sheckels
Marxism = sheckels (if you are near the top or can easily climb)
Common man priority = ?
>>81449218
You see *sniff* you implement a -uh post capitalists social system *sniff* and not everything will work and be good and so on and so on. And it's funny because *sniff* the*sniff capitalists are going to create the machines *sniff* that make capitalism impossible. It also means I can now use a robot to fist my ass and so on.
>>81440101
>Marxism is great, goy!
>yes, of course it's good for the common man, goy!
>what do you mean these foreigners aren't the common man? that's racist, goy!
uhm
communism is baayd
>>81450797
pure ideology
>>81442884
I think right out the gate your argument was faulty. What makes the ideals of anti-immigration and traditionalism "simple rhetoric" whereas the ideals of say social welfare and job entitlement aren't? Both paint attractive pictures, it's just that they attract different sorts.
Your mistake was thinking that the common man wants to be coddled and have a safety net and that he doesn't desire the opportunity to make something greater of himself.
>>81450883
*sniff
>>81442884
the appeal of conservativism is not in its language. at heart, most people are conservatives. most people abhor massive change and most people enjoy their traditions. those are conservative notions.
the problem of marxism, conversely, is also not the language. the problem is in practice it makes slaves of free men. we've all seen it happen over and over again for just shy of 100 years now. it's is a ludicrous concept in these modern times.
>>81451139
>social welfare
Social welfare is not a Marxist idea; it is a Capitalist idea. Its very function is to patch up the failures of Capital, same as charity.
Marxism views the economy as a superstructure which needs to be fundamentally changed. You're thinking of people like Bernie Sanders who wish to maintain a capitalist system while implementing incompatible elements of socialism. A common mistake.
No-one's going to pay for your manifesto, you deluded /pol/ cuck. You self-publish for free or not at all.
>>81440101
>Marxism works in favour of the Jew
FTFY
>>81452103
was for
>>81445708
>>81445837
is there a name for this ideology
>>81451139
Of couse *sniff* we need to stand in solidarity with the refugees and *sniff* oppressed in general and so on and so on. But the otherness *sniff* of immigrant culture *sniff* cannot be tackled using the current liberals.
>>81440995
Nice meme
>>81452323
Fantasy
>>81451982
I meant welfare in the generalized sense. The government providing healthcare, social property ownership, etc. Bad phrasing on my part.
But you did manage to not actually address the point of my post.
>>81442884
Marxism's attempt to abolish classes or any sort of accumulated privilege ends up as an attempt to destroy the basis of any group it gazes upon because it assumes it is possible to achieve a kind of equality when in fact it's not. By this token, it drives people apart.
>>81440101
Marxism fails the common man by being deficient to his economic and social needs. The market is the only method which accurately transmits information to people so they can make semi-rational choices.
>>81452542
Okay:
Xenophobia appeals to tribalism which is a deeply ingrained human concept (though not inherent I might add.) Traditionalism appeals to our resistance to change. We are stubborn animals.
Social welfare and job entitlement are ideals only in relation to Capital. These were not the concerns of a feudalistic society. They are relatively new concept and specifically address problems which have arisen from capitalism. For these reason they do not carry the same emotional weight, the same "punch" that fear of the Other does.
>Your mistake was thinking that the common man wants to be coddled and have a safety net and that he doesn't desire the opportunity to make something greater of himself.
This, I would argue, is the central myth of capital. It denies the role of determinism and places all responsibility in the individual will. Scientifically, this is incorrect, but it appeals to what "feels right". We believe that we are in control of our destiny. I do not think the common man wishes to be "coddled". Quite the opposite, which is why I am saying that conservative rhetoric is much more effective on him. It reaffirms his confidence in the will as the supreme good.
>>81440101
conservatism only works against the common man if the common man is unwilling to work to better himself
so, it hurts neets and niggers. nothing wrong here
>>81440101
>disagree
Marxism denies the common man the sense of belonging and fulfillment he gets from nationalism and religion... and then it puts him in a gulag.
>>81440101
I read that pic in his voice
>>81453540
>Marxism alienates the common man
So you do agree?
>>81442884
It's not really that complicated, it's about children fundamentally.
Conservatism seeks to establish and maintain stability in society, so that children can be imprinted with the values of their elders and build upon them.
The Left are about changing society in the here and now, at the expense of the stability that children need, for essentially selfish reasons. That's why the goals of the Left, though they change, are always against human nature and can never be achieved. It's a misanthropic feeding frenzy where you devour the future for your own vanity in the now.
The Right adheres to social rules and the Left breaks social rules.
Now, you find that completely Conservative societies stagnate, as the rules start to pile up and no one is willing to break them, and completely Leftist societies just fall to pieces as it quickly becomes the norm that all rules are oppressive.
The Right wins every time, because they also may have idealistic, even utopian views of how society should be, but they generally have the humility to recognise that society isn't theirs to fuck with, it is borrowed from the next generation.
I'll take ridiculous oversimplifications fit for five year olds for $100 Alex.
Neither system on its own is sufficient, Both can be worked against people. The left, based upon history, has more tendency towards totalitarianism though.
Capitalism has weaknesses in areas like monopolies and regulatory capture.
>>81440101
>Marxism works in favour of the common man
hmmm
>>81453428
>Xenophobia appeals to tribalism which is a deeply ingrained human concept (though not inherent I might add.)
Xenophobia is inherent. It's balanced with xenophilia, which is also inherent. Not everyone is born with these traits, just like not everyone is born with eyes or fully developed brains, but they are still inherent traits possessed by the majority of the population.
The Left's denial of human nature, which we see from you here, is why the Left can neither appeal to the common man, nor "work" for him. You can't build a society out of pure ideology, you must take the instincts of the common man into account. The Left's contempt for, and hostility towards, the basic instincts of the common man ultimately leads you to vilify and marginalize him. It necessitates the imposition of a police state to control the increasingly fractious masses, who had been stable and relatively well behaved under the traditional, irrational, natural social systems you overthrew.
>>81453698
Yes, I agree Marxism is alienating, and that contradicts the idea that it "works". If a social philosophy is alienating, then it can't serve man's basic need to belong to a social group.
>>81454447
I have no quarrel with working with people's Xenophobia, otherwise I would not have called it a deeply ingrained part of being human. Perhaps the word I should have used is intrinsic. It is not an intrinsic part of human nature.
The idea that racism is "taught" is a false (and idealistic) liberal notion which dangerously allies education and xenophobia. I would posit that racism is inherent, but dissipates with education and experience.
>>81453949
>Conservatism seeks to establish and maintain stability in society, so that children can be imprinted with the values of their elders and build upon them.
Conservatism seeks to establish and maintain stability in society, so that children CAN SURVIVE. Conservatism recognizes the fundamentally dangerous nature of the world, and seeks to build social systems that maximize the chance of survival. Imprinting children with the values of their elders is not an end in and of itself, it is the means to the end of ensuring stability and with it survival of society as a bio-cultural collective.
Preserving society, not arbitrary obedience to rules, is the purpose of Conservatism. Conservative societies will change when necessary, but only when necessary, and always with an eye towards preserving what they see as the essence of their heritage.
>>81455195
I would say it is intrinsic, especially on a social level. It's a trait that is possessed by the vast majority. I would even go so far as to argue that since it is intrinsic, individuals who lack it are fundamentally inhuman, just as psycho-paths who lack any compassion are inhuman.
>>81455195
in-group preference is intrinsic and one way it manifests itself is through racism. Education and experience just shift its focus but it is there.
pic related
>>81455977
Your graph doesn't prove that it is an intrinsic trait, only that it is prevalent. Something which I have not denied.
In fact, the amount of variation in your graph neatly demonstrates how tenuous this tribalism can be. Take the Jewish community for example. There is a strong tradition tribalism as we can see from your image. For the child to be Jewish, his mother must be Jewish. If his mother is a gentile and his father is Jewish, the child is considered a gentile.
Now there is nothing here which makes sense in terms of genetics. The mother does not have dominant Jewish genetics. It just shows that this nonsense is a construction which has been reinforced, not by inherent truth of God as an orthodox jew would believe, but by centuries of tradition. It's lower in other races because they don't have as strong a tradition. This variation shows that these false constructs can be just as easily be deconstructed.
>>81451982
>Soviet Union
>More than 100,000,000 murdered under the regime
>somehow gets the idea that was somehow incredible employment situation and noone needed to queue up for equally-alloted toilet paper. bacon, soap and other basic amenities.
>>81455469
>do it for the children!
At least try to make your side sound appealing
>>81453949
Victorian Britain and America during the late 19th century were conservative countries and experienced exponential economic progress and prosperity, which has spread across the world and aided in the modernisation of other countries.
>>81458094
It is appealing to non-sperglords. That's why every politician invokes the "for the children" trope at some point. It works.
>>81440101
>gibe free stuff
>alienates common man
can't kek enough, nice bait thread
>>81457259
My goal was to show that education just shifts the in-group bias. Atheists are typically educated, yet they report the largest in-group bias (look at differences in ratings).
What seems to show that in-group preference is intrinsic is anthropological studies that show it to be universal.
You should never forget that you live in a world of uncertainty, meaning that we have evolved to face uncertainty. You couldn't possibly know the genetic make-up of individuals in the past. However, cues are correlated with genetic similarity. These are the cues we care about today and they are socially constructed up to an extent.
By deconstructing traditions, you destroy the social glue holding groups together and centuries of accumulated knowledge of a group (look, for instance, at Putnam's research). There are a lot of social rules that exist because they promote social stability. They seem arbitrary and the causal links might not be completely obvious but they were selected for in a process of group selection.
>>81458521
Lol does Putin even let you go on 4chan?
>>81440101
Disagree.
Conservatism allows more outlets and choices to change the man's disposition.
Marxism, forces collectivism, the opposite of alienation, with no outlet or choice to better quality of life.
>>81440101
Not quite true. This is a common misconception.
Anyone who owns property, no matter how little, despises Marxism. Anyone who DOESN'T own property, tends to be sympathetic to Marxism. This is why city-dwellers who don't own anything like Marxism, and peasants who own just but a house hate Marxism. Lenin had legions of Marxists because none of these Marxists had property under Capitalism, therefore collectivization didn't matter.
>"If I can't own property under Capitalism, then why does it matter I won't own property under Communism?"
One of the greatest mistakes the Republicans ever did was fuck up the ability for Millennials to acquire property. Because of this, Millennials will be a Socialist generation.
>>81458519
>not caring about cheap emotional appeals makes you a sperg
>>81440101
Marxism has a definition.
Conservatism doesn't.
>>81459617
This is true too. Once upon a time, being a Conservative meant Monarchy.
>>81459806
Leftists pretend to be intellectual until you turn your back and they point a gun at your head. They are savages, nothing more.
>>81440101
Marxism does not work in the favor of the common man at all. It spreads suffering on an industrial scale.
Conservatism actually does work assuming you have a good foundation to conserve. Like what America used to have. Especially if you are in a homogenous society.
Leftist thought at its core is destructive.
Every single empire that has decayed away did so after becoming left/progressive.
>>81459617
Neither have a strict definition.
Marxism is a critical lens for critique. It does not necessarily have an end goal and, if it does, that end goal is not necessarily communism.
Conservatism, broadly speaking, is the belief that what you have inherited should be conserved.
>>81460048
Depends on the Leftist. There are a variety of 'kinds' of Leftists, and it's useful to tell them apart.
Globalist Leftists aren't Communist Leftists and both aren't Bolivarian Leftists. The 'Left' is far more diverse than the right. It's akin to Batman villains. Just because Batman is the same, doesn't mean his 'opponents' are all the same.
>>81440101
Conservatism works for the common man as Switzerland demonstrates every day - its just that Marxists blame the failures of their insane cult on anyone but themselves.
You clearly misunderstand how thoroughly Marxism was discredited in the last century. Conservatism's appeal to the working class is also overstated as poling intidicates many of them remain social democratic in their political views if looked at more closely. They tend to be staunchly anti-immigrant as it's easy to see them being forced into competition with immigrants.
>>81460508
Conservatism has no definition because that which is inherited varies widely.
Marxism is what Marx taught and believed. It's far less variant.
You, like all leftists, play games with definitions because you are unintelligent and unimaginative, incapable of fronting serious argument, and you're given over to a materialistic religion. You're no better than any priest blinded by his dogma, you degenerate.
>>81450187
fuck me i read that in his voice, fuck what a loose unit
>>81460650
The working class is of middling IQ. Their opinion means little.
The free market allowed for the greatest growth in quality of life.
>>81460546
There are more 'conservatives' because there are more traditions to conserve.
Leftism creates confusion. It wants you to think it's varied, but it's not. They share the same common degenerate traits. They are r-selected unscientific cretins.
I agree.
I am a very poor person but I choose Conservatism because I put the interest of my country before myself, unlike Marxists who put themselves above their country.
>>81461263
Sure.
>>81440101
Yes I agree.
The problem is that your "common man" is usually dumb as rocks and easily swayed by emotions and brainwashing.
>>81442884
>Marxism (Marxism is a critical lens; not necessarily communism)
This is why Marxism doesn't work. It doesn't have any way to affirmatively prescribe policy. It just criticizes existing policy. Marxism will always be appealing to people who are somehow unsatisfied with existing society but it doesn't have solutions.
Here's a question: You said Marxism "manifests itself in abtruse language" This, which we are familiar with here, is the language created by upper-middle class academic technicians - the bourgeoise. So based on Marxist ideas of class struggle and ideology, these "abtruse technical descriptions of Marxism" are ideology produced by the bourgeoise. So then doesn't that, again according to Marxism, mean that these ideas can't possibly be in favor of the working class since they were created by the bourgeoise?
>>81440101
>Slavshit Zizkek
Reading his inane babble. Not even once.
Conservatism exists to make men slaves to international finance, Marxism exists to make men slaves to the state. Class War, Race War.
Marxism: Too many cooks in the kitchen
Every Marxist wants to be the fedora tipping faggot with a million little theories that don't hold any weight in the real world. Impractical ideas spouted by wind bags that think they're way smarter than they actually are. They're some of the biggest, snobbiest autists that exist. Not only disconnected from "the common man" but reality itself.
>>81440101
But this is blatantly false
Except for the alienating part. The Jews want to be alienated from the starving masses when they get appointed to office.
>>81462195
This. People who go on about obscure Marxist theories today are some of the most supreme autists that exist outside of 4chan / anime communities. Some of them even do it in respected academic positions, amazingly.
>>81440101
>I can summarize ideologies in a sentence
You must be overage to post on /pol/ kiddo.
>>81462423
I believe it was Mises who has a quote about how socialism thrives because there isn't a definition of it and if you try to apply one you "don't even understand socialism"
