Return to the Catholic Church. Do it now.
I will not join the catholic church, if anything I would join the orthodox church
I am reformed anyway
I want to, but it's hard to justify with a Marxist running the show.
>>80727060
Fk no.
>>80727060
But I am already Catholic ameribro
>>80727060
I have but I hate the Pope.
Don't make me smash your trinkets again, pedo scum.
>>80727233
This. I will only join provided the Catholic Church goes full Deus Vult. Otherwise, I'm quite content being a filthy Anglican.
>>80727453
>be Dutch
>lose clay to slimy, francophone Catholics
>>80727060
Orthodox here. That's right, return to the ONE ORTHODOX CATHOLIC HOLY APOSTOLIC CHURCH.
;)
Im happy being a protestant.
Hey, but at least we dont kill each other like those stupid muslim sand niggers.
>>80727855
>be american
>in the process of losing clay to slimy, democrat-voting mexicans
Clay you once took from them no less.
>>80727060
The age of Christendom is over. Embrace the Cult of Kek.
>>80727060
Sure thing. Catholic church! Best time right now.
>>80727060
>implying I was ever Catholic
I can't take the Catholic church seriously or the Vatican after the Benedict/Francis switcheroo and the Pope taking in muslim rapefugees and totally ignoring the christian ones. Something stinks here.
>>80728202
>losing clay
It's not clay that's at stake, Cornelis, only demographics, which is arguably worse.
America will be Brazil-tier in a hundred years.
>>80728315
Is Kek the personification of the Aeon of Horus? Was Crowley right all along?
>>80727060
I'm Orthodox but I confess sometimes I wish I was Catholic because I'm Hispanic and there aren't many of us in the Orthodox Church.
>Return to the Catholic Church. Do it now.
No thanks, christ-pedoes.
>>80729520
what kind of hispanic?
>>80727060
already am
>>80729520
You have to go back, Gonzalo.
>>80729620
Tejano
>Vatican 2.0
no thanks
>>80727233
>>80727371
>>80727855
>>80728545
>>80728876
I have a pro tip to you. See this guy? It's John XII. He was a pope in the end of X century, the end of pornocracy peroid in the history of Church. Let's see what he did:
>Fucked both women and men in the papal palace, rapes included
>Also fucked on the graves os Saint Peter and Paul
>He made a ten year old a cardinal
>Fucked his niece
>Made a papal palcae a borthel
>Castrated and killed cardinal
>Binding and then murdering his confessor
>Raising a toast for the devil and recall pagan deities during playing dice
>The refusal to make the sign of the cross
Et cetera et cetera. He was ovethrown by Otton I but buy bunch of mercenaries and take a papal throne again. Otton was pissed off and go to Rome but John was alredy dead by then. Probably killed by one of guys that he cucked but by time he was dead evryone agred that Satan himself come and killed him.
And gusses what? We survive him. So until Francics (personaly I do not like him too anyway) go with the full blown heresy don't you dare say that you do not want fulfill the Truth only becouse Holy Spirit punished us with this argentine.
>>80727962
>Orthodoxy
>One
>Catholic
Kekd
>>80730015
>having priests pray toward Mecca
>not heresy
Francis has betrayed the Church. I will not assign my loyalty to a Marxist fool.
I'm rather un-devoted to Christianity as a whole. A faithful man, but it's lacking. I am looking for a place of worship. Do I go Unity or Eastern Orthodox?
>>80729688
raconte ton histoire mon frère
>Believing in an occult.
https://www.ccel.org/ccel/alexander_a/canon.iii.v.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xLg2QlEpH8
>>80727060
join us in Orthodoxy instead
How coud we "return" to a newly-created heresy?
>>80727060
I'm already a reformed catholic
Nigga there's no turning back. We can only go forward and learn from mistakes, the catholic church being one of them
>>80727060
He'll no. The pope went after trump and said the muslim rapists should be let in and their culture is compatible.
As an ex catholic, I'm all for turning the other cheek, but I only have 2 cheeks. If islam is going to keep fucking up, if the fucking pope isnt going to support his religion in favor of a religion and people that want us dead, if a pope will sit behind his walls and suggest that only the Vatican and isreal need walls, then I will leave. This pope has proven he is the false pope. The "anti" pope of the orthodox chuch, the patriarch, has my support. Hell the patriarch supports trump and putin, the patriarch wants islam out of the west, the patriarch wants the holy land to belong to the jews and christians and not the muslims, the patriarch still demands we return to values. Even if you're a woman on here (god only knows why) these next few years will determine whether you stay in a western society that SHOULD demand more male-dominated politics, or fOllie the feminist view of giving all power to islam, become a female slave of your new muslim owners.
The Catholic Church has fallen to evil, and although they did so by trying to stay relevant and socially acceptable, they forget that the path to hell is paved with good intentions.
Pedophiles, Homosexuals, muslim rapists, over entitled women, cucks, and anti-white racists sympathizers have claimed the Catholic church now. We now a few options: reclaim the church, forego the church, join a new church, become autistic (read: atheists), or watch the world burn.
To be honest... I'm at a loss, and I admit I have no answers. I pray every night that some how I will know the answer, yet I hear nothing. Perhaps there is no God, and if there is, then he wishes us to suffer. Hopefully, if God exists, he will help us overcome the immense evil that fulls the moder religions of earth.
>>80730163
>having priests pray toward Mecca
What. When? Do you meanad orientem or something else?
> I will not assign my loyalty to a Marxist fool.
You do not. You can listen to him only when he speak ex cathedra if you want. I do.
>Francis has betrayed the Church.
But this not change the fact that THE Church exist and is the Body of Chirst.
![290px-Quaker_star-T.svg[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/NJOFNxe.png "290px-Quaker_star-T.svg[1].png")
>>80727060
Come be a Quaker friend
Truly it is the best denomination
Praise KeK
>>80730990
this
>>80727060
bbb...but muh science and muh dick!
>>80731112
You must bare the storm my friend. Soon the papacy will be restored to its former glory. All the priests at my local church are already throwing subtle jabs at Francis. You must have faith
![Confessor_Cromwell[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/gMtq7vR.jpg "Confessor_Cromwell[1].jpg")
Give your bodies to Atom, my friends. Release yourself to his power, feel his Glow and be Divided
>>80731489
I wish but the false pope is destined to destroy the church. It's hard to get more false than supporting islam, a sworn enemy of our church.
>>80731719
see >>80730015
The church has had a long history and has endured worse. No matter what happens in the short term the church will always rejuvenate itself
![latest[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/Oc0YHrH.jpg "latest[1].png")
>>80731719
Yea, your suffering shall exist no longer; it shall be washed away in Atom's Glow, burned from you in the fire of his brilliance
>Believing in a meme religion
>thinking the meme religion would do you any good.
To the Catholics in this thread:
Convince me to join your Church. As I have read in Matthew 23, Christ condemns the Pharisees and religious leaders of the time for excessive extravagance and ceremonial celebration in their worship. He also instructs his disciples to pray directly to the Father in privacy, as written in Matthew 6.
Explain how your church has not been corrupted, and convince me to join.
>>80727060
Return to old Gods. Do it now.
>>80732239
>see flag
>autistic post
as expected
>>80732239
>spouting pagan nonsense
absolutely_heretical.jpeg
I'll convert because my wife is catholic and she wants to marry in the church, but if not for that I wouldn't touch it with a 6-foot pole.
I'd much rather convert to the orthodox church.
>>80731958
I'd prefer to follow talos if I decide to follow a video game god. At least he took over the world in the name of the decent humans.
I have a feeling trump will be earths version of talos. If he wins, and says we Can, I wI'll spend my life hunting degenerate terrorists like islam and BLM
>>80732239
Time to stop.
![fallout-3-confessor-cromwell[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/hYzIwWY.jpg "fallout-3-confessor-cromwell[1].jpg")
>>80732541
Each of us shall give birth to a billion stars formed from the mass of our wretched and filthy bodies
>>80732857
Gee, that totally doesn't remind me of ISIS.
>abrahamic monotheists
>colonialists of Evropa
pic two
>>80732521
>my wife
my fiancée*
Can I join the secret order of Vampire and Demon hunters?
>>80733152
Chopping down trees=suicide bombing, mass murder, invasions and etc.
Yes, I see the resemblance.
>>80733925
There were invasions, crusades against white Europeans and mass murder though. And now the Church allies with their Islamic friends against white Europe. Very fitting. All semtic religions are cancer.
No, join The Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus.
>>80734183
hold on right there buddy, join us
>>80732239
people should worship their ancestral Gods, not some jewish desert dweller.
>>80727060
No chance. Catholic born and raised here. The hypocrisy of the institution is just too much to bear:
- no contraception (helps the world spread of AIDS and STDs by having an unrealistic, denial-based attitude to human sexuality)
- is anti-gay (promotes hatred and violence)
- accumulates ridiculous amounts of wealth, gold, and opulence while claiming to be a religion of the poor and abject (just check out the Vatican)
- refuses to give women positions other than that of a refugee mother 2000 years ago
- contains some fucking ridiculous and contradictory theology (transubstantiation v. consubstantiation, anyone? Or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?)
- provides a home for hateful bigots who want respect while maintaining their prejudices
- makes false claims to moral superiority while at the same time being a vehicle for missionary work, colonization, and the destruction of other cultures and religions
- actively supports child sexual abuse by priests around the world by refusing to treat offenders as criminals and by shuffling them around instead to access fresh batches of children in new parishes
- has some pretty good music, art, and architecture
- is not bad for weddings and funerals, but not essential.
I'm done with this bullshit. I don't think Catholicism has a place in modern, Western educated countries and doubt it will exist in these places in 200 years. It'll be like the pre-Roman pagan polytheisms -- cute, but now completely irrelevant.
Nope, proud protestant
>>80735164
This man speaks the truth
Proud Orthodox, I will never join your stupid heresy.
Or what? I'd rather have the research that the protestants have done to validate the entire bible.
>>80727060
What's wrong, papist? Feeling the bleedout from millions of people realizing your church is a cult?
>>80735164
>It'll be like the pre-Roman pagan polytheisms
No clue why you can't see it never changed from this.
>>80727060
Allready did
>>80727060
>>80727060
>>80727060
>implying I'm not already a catholic
Stay mad with your minority majority youth because in Europe it's not the case
>>80735245
>>80735245
>>80735245
>>80736392
The changes in the Douay-Rheims are nothing short of blasphemy.
A Jesuit taking St. Francis's name as Pontiff --- cmon son.
>>80728876
This.
>>80736997
More like an oath-breaking black pope pushing out a white nazi pope.
>>80736804
You'll need to explain. I'm not sure what your pronouns are doing.
>>80737712
Pre-Roman pagan polytheisms = Babylon
Roman Catholic Church = Babylon
It's the same monster.
>>80727060
I didn't leave the catholic church, it left me when it decided to cover up for paedophiles and elect a communist rapefugee fan.
>>80737841
That clarifies. I'm thinking of very different examples. Celtic and Anglo-Saxon religion was based on many gods that were basically forms of animism that were used to anchor stories about codes of heroism, valor, retribution, and the central values that made such primitive societies function. As political stability and larger networks of trade arrived, it made more sense to replace these with a large-scale monotheism that allowed church and state to intersect. My simple observation is that this need is no longer present in Western developed societies, largely because the state has shown to be impeded by the power of the Catholic Church. It represents inflexibility, injustice, and self-interest that obstructs the goals of a modern secular state and its legal systems.
And yes, I've studied plenty of the sociology of religion and know the counter-argument from Hans Blumenberg and his followers about political theology and the hollowed-out shell of religion being carried into the present, but I think it's undeniable that in the most advanced, educated, and wealthy countries, Catholicism is being proven to be completely dispensable and even to be an obstacle to just societies and the rewards of modernity.
>>80738366
But you were okay with the Holocaust and hiding Nazi war criminals in monasteries in South America.
>>80738543
If you're interested enough, you can trace the origins of every single pagan culture back to Babylon. They all started in Babylon.
It's always been Babylon v Jerusalem.
But make no mistake; the false prophet of Mystery Babylon, this black pope, will unite the world under one common religion, declare the Antichrist to be the Christ, and declare war on the heavens themselves.
The world has been saturated by naturalism and rationalism and atheism; it is helpless in the face of clearly supernatural events.
And Pandora's Box is just now being opened. If you did not see it, look for the Swiss celebration of their tunnel being finished.
It is as pagan as pagan can pagan.
>>80738845
This sounds like quite a crackpot theory and is completely contradicted by archaeological evidence about movement of peoples in Europe.
"Cro-Magnons (the first anatomically modern humans in Europe) are believed to have arrived in Europe about 40,000 years ago.[7] They are known to have had a presence in the geographical region that was to become Great Britain by 33,000 years before present (BP) due to the discovery of the skeletal remains of the "Red Lady of Paviland".[8] This is actually the skeleton (lacking the skull) of a young man of the Aurignacian culture, and may be the oldest, modern, human remains yet discovered in Great Britain and Ireland." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_settlement_of_the_British_Isles
Are you getting this from an unusual book or did you make it up yourself? Or are you off your meds. You really don't make sense.
>>80735164
looks live you've been fully brainwashed by feminists and Jews.
>No contraception
Wouldn't be a problem if you just stopped fucking niggers
>anti-gay
Have you ever been to a pride parade. Gays going to burn.
>Accumulates wealth
Better than it being in the hands of Jews
>refuses to induct women in to the patriarchy
women fuck shit up. Read up on the "Assembly of Women"
>contains a sophisticated theology
It could help if you could read past a highschooler's level
>free speech
free speech.
>moral superiority
Its the white man's burden
>supports child abuse
less abuse occurs in the Catholic Church than your average school
>good taste
as always
>good for weddings
Its the Church that protects the sanctity of marriage
Have fun being thrown off a cliff by Muslims and watch your daughter descend into degeneracy by this secular society.
No, I refuse to worship Allah.
>The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God.
>But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
>>80739423
Thanks for trying.
>Wouldn't be a problem if you just stopped fucking niggers
You failed on contraception. Humans like sex. The Catholic Church pretends they don't or shouldn't, so argues for no contraception. Reality denial fails, so STDs and pointless pregnancies spread massively. This is one of the church's worst failings. Don't you agree?
>Have you ever been to a pride parade. Gays going to burn.
I'm not gay but not anti-gay. Some people are gay. It seems biological and exists in all human cultures. I don't give a fuck, but there's no point in killing faggots.
>Better than it being in the hands of Jews
So Catholics are the new Jews? Nice one.
>women fuck shit up. Read up on the "Assembly of Women"
You mean Aristophanes? He's fucking hilarious on gender politics. He pokes fun at everyone. Lysistrata is great when the women withhold sex from the men.
>It could help if you could read past a highschooler's level
PhD here, faggot.
>Its the white man's burden
Referencing Kipling is no argument. Proven by the faggotry of his Barrack-Room Ballads (and read them if you don't known them).
>less abuse occurs in the Catholic Church than your average school
Doubt it (and not at my Catholic school, where there's currently an abuse scandal being sorted out). But anyway, "we endorse slightly less child abuse than our neighbors" is no argument.
I'd enjoy attempted rebuttal with sources and without ad hominem.
>>80735164
You haven't made any good arguments against being a Catholic. You have stated a series of falsehoods and your points are based on the tu quoque fallacy.
>>80727060
I want to but i dont know if my family would go for it. Especialy with the current pope.
>>80727060
Orthodox Catholic is the teaching of the 12 apostles who followed Jesus.
>>80740396
the whole discussion is pointless
>>80732056
http://www.catholic.com/ find a topic and read.
>>80740396
>The Catholic Church pretends they don't or shouldn't, so argues for no contraception
This isn't true. They believe sex should be a sacred act between husband and wife. This meme needs to stop
>>80727060
Sure, now what do we do with the $(CURRENT_YEAR) mass? Too much dancey, too much "happy" music, if you get the gist. It is a fucking cringe show.
>>80740488
>Promotes the spread of STDs
>Promotes child abuse
>Destroys other cultures
These are all bad things and each is an argument. In addition, this is not a tu quoque fallacy. It's pointing out overt hypocrisy, which absolutely is not the same thing as this fallacy. Philosophy major here and I'm not accepting the improper use of a fallacy accusation, anon. Don't be sloppy.
>>80727060
People need to realize the difference between religion and evangelion.
Jesus never asked anyone to join child-molesting clubs.
>>80740678
Do you even know the Papal Encyclical Humanae Vitae of 1968?
"Similarly excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means."
http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae.html
Please, anon.
Catholics like to claim they are the Early church, how do you explain these clearly Protestant beliefs from the Fathers then?
"The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth. St. Athanasius (Against the Heathen, I:3)
"Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast." St. John Chrysostom (Homily 8
On Repentance and the Church, p. 118, vol. 96 TFOTC)
"Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." St. Gregory of Nyssa (On the Holy Trinity, NPNF, p. 327).
"We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture." St. Basil the Great (On the Holy Spirit, Chapter 7, par. 16)
"For you believe the faith; why then do you add other things, as if faith were not sufficient to justify? You make yourselves captive, and you subject yourself to the law." - St. John Chrysostom (Epistle to Titus, Homily 3, PG 62.651)
"Human beings can be saved from the ancient serpent in no other way than by believing in him who, when he was raised up from the earth on the tree of martyrdom in the likeness of sinful flesh, drew all things to himself and gave life to the dead." - Irenaeus (Against the Heresies, IV, 2, 7).
"Similarly we also, who by His will have been called in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, or our own wisdom or understanding or godliness, nor by such deeds as we have done in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which Almighty God has justified all men since the beginning of time. Glory be to Him, forever and ever, Amen." - St. Clement of Rome (Letter to the Corinthians, par. 32)
Clearly the Fathers believed tradition must be subject to scripture and in sola fide.
>>80727060
Them conical and cylindrical pipe organs?
>Nobody asked for dem feels
>>80740844
You are rejecting the precepts of Catholicism because you have identified instances where members of the church did not live up to its moral standards. This is a tu quoque fallacy.
What you are saying elsewhere is that Africans are not responsible for their own choices when they posit sexual acts. This is untrue. You are just looking for excuses to misbehave and act permissively. You are unwilling to conform yourself with God's law.
>>80738556
>hiding Nazi war criminals
When was this?
You do now the nazis rightly attacked the Catholic church?
>>80741547
*know
Strange. There are day on /pol/ when it is full of occultists, gnostics, Thelemites, Satanists and G*d knows who else not just muh PhDs'
it is all quiet now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rdOIyoXXgY
>>80735164
A lot of these reasons why are why baby boomer catholics left the church. My mom and a family friend who were catholics before Vat II got out of the church afterwards. Also the church siding with pedos over actual people was a big point. The idea of the church back then was that it was all for faithful christians, and when the church took the side of evil, it turned a lot of people away.
I'm an unbaptized Christian who wants to join the Catholic church but there's still doubt about joining. I'm going to but I'm scared none the less.
Previous popes have taught heresy ex-cathedra, such as Honorious who taught monothelitism and the RCC has changed it's doctrine on salvation since the time of the Councils of Florence and Trent (when it taught outside of union with the Roman Pontiff there is no salvation) to Vatican II when it now teaches Muslims are saved >>80740303, among other various changes. How can Catholics claim to be part of the Apostolic and unchanging church?
>>80741547
Zionist propaganda. Pope Pius XII gave assylum to thousands of Jews in Vatican City. His witness motivated the chief rabbi of Rome to convert to Christianity.
>>80741433
You're trying to say that every example of self-contradiction or hypocrisy is a tu quoque fallacy. I'm saying that it doesn't work to preach poverty while hoarding wealth; it doesn't work to claim moral superiority while destroying the lives of others (especially those of different beliefs); and it doesn't work to provide a home for bigotry while preaching to love one's neighbor. Each of these is the church undermining its own authority by saying one thing and doing another. A tu quoque fallacy requires a temporal gap where some irrelevant past behavior is brought to bear on a present statement. That's not what's happening here. In addition, each of these things being done by the Catholic Church is morally reprehensible in its own right from many standpoints, perhaps most obviously from the position that humans should not do harm unnecessarily to other humans.
I went to Xavier College and Newman College. What's your Australian Catholic affiliation, anon?
>>80741648
most of the atheists and agnostics know not to bother.
>full of occultists, gnostics, Thelemites, Satanists
What threads have you been reading?
>>80741648
Yes- why don't we keep it that way- shhh! Have some wine
>>80741819
>His witness motivated the chief rabbi of Rome to convert to Christianity.
that happened
Where they good Jews after that?
>>80741211
No Church Father believed in Sola Scriptura.
Here is Athanasius true take on Scripture and Tradition(1/2)
>>80741211
Athanasius (2/2)
>>80741211
Athanasius two of two
>>80741211
>Erly Church
>Protestant
http://heroicvirtuecreations.com/2010/09/17/the-church-fathers-were-all-protestants/
>>80727060
But I am a member.
>>80742177
I don't know what you mean by "work". If you want to rationally argue why it is right to leave the church, you must provide arguments for why you reject its doctrines. You are not doing this. You are identifying a subset of the Church who have done evil things. Furthermore, I don't see how the Catholic Church is guilty of perpetrating evil by advising Christians not to use artificial contraceptives in the context of Christian marriage.
>>80727060
>yes lets covert the jews. the shit skins and the blacks and we'll all live happily together
>>80741211
On Chrysostom,
. . . “That ye remember me in all things, and hold fast the traditions, even as I delivered them to you.” It appears then that he used at that time to deliver many things also not in writing, which he shows too in many other places. But at that time he only delivered them, whereas now he adds an explanation of their reason: thus both rendering the one sort, the obedient, more steadfast, and pulling down the others’ pride, who oppose themselves. (Homily XXVI on 1 Corinthians; commenting on 1 Cor 11:2)
>>80740844
>Promotes the spread of STDs
Then don't have sex outside marriage you fucking degenerate.
>Promotes child abuse
Guess what, faggot: original sin. But I am certain that you will find a stupid mental gymnastic that says it does not apply to the HUMANS of the Church.
>Destroys other cultures
If by culture you mean false religions, I don't care.
>>80741211
More Chrysostom,
“So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by Epistle of ours.”
Hence it is manifest, that they did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things also unwritten, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore let us think the tradition of the Church also worthy of credit. It is a tradition, seek no farther. Here he shows that there were many who were shaken. (On Second Thessalonians, Homily IV)
Wow..so totally sola Scriptura!
>>80742391
yeah, but sometimes it looks like the hell broke free
muh noosphere breached and shit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgY0jQykj8E
>>80738556
hiding didn't happen. plenty of RC priests got holocausted. if facing down totalitarianism is the benchmark of 'good' we should all convert to jehovah witnesses.
John Polack II fucked the RC church by covering up paedophiles raping children and shielding them from the authorities.
>>80741045
>Jesus never asked anyone to join child-molesting clubs.
/THREAD
>>80735164
>- no contraception (helps the world spread of AIDS and STDs by having an unrealistic, denial-based attitude to human sexuality)
There is no evidence that contraception prevents AIDS
>- is anti-gay (promotes hatred and violence)
false (see catechism paragraph, which promotes respect and decries any unjust discrimination)
>- accumulates ridiculous amounts of wealth, gold, and opulence while claiming to be a religion of the poor and abject (just check out the Vatican)
False, the annual revenue of the vatican is equivalent to a mid-sized university, of which there are dozens, but there's only one vatican. Why don't you liberals ever criticize universities like this? Hypocrites.
>- refuses to give women positions other than that of a refugee mother 2000 years ago
Mary is the second highest being after God. This is ridiculous.
>- contains some fucking ridiculous and contradictory theology (transubstantiation v. consubstantiation, anyone? Or how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?)
Consubstantiation is a Lutheran heresy. How man angels is a joke that is not even in the Summa Theologica
>- makes false claims to moral superiority while at the same time being a vehicle for missionary work, colonization, and the destruction of other cultures and religions
Colonization is bad? Lol, go back to living in a straw hut then.
>- actively supports child sexual abuse by priests around the world by refusing to treat offenders as criminals and by shuffling them around instead to access fresh batches of children in new parishes
False, there is no evidence that priests rape children at a higher rate than any other denomination or institution.
>I'm done with this bullshit.
You were never a catholic anyway given your laughable understanding of the religion. See you later, punk. The fact that your parents sent you to a Catholic school doesn't make you a Catholic.
>>80743134
I'm presenting a criticism of why the Catholic Church's position on several issues is intolerable and internally inconsistent. People can look at this and decide for themselves how much contradiction they can bear in their religious affiliations. Personally, I can't take too much, especially when prominent Catholic positions are overtly doing harm to others. I'm focusing on issues that are intrinsic to Catholic positions and not the unrepresentative actions of a few "bad apples" (that would be too easy and not helpful). How do you justify or tolerate this harm to others?
The point about contraceptives is a simple one. It's better for the world if rates of STDs are reduced (so as to reduce unnecessary suffering and death) and so as to prevent the birth of unwanted children into intolerable circumstances. The Catholic Church opposes this because it wants to maximize reproduction in marriage (saying reproduction is sacred and should never be impeded, but in practice I think meaning that the Church just wants billions more little Catholics to overrun the planet). The big problem here is that the Church is not asking merely "Christians not to use artificial contraceptives in the context of Christian marriage." The Papal Encyclical on this stuff does not limit itself to Christian marriage. It makes pronouncements of high Papal authority for (in the case of Humanae Vitae) "the whole of the Catholic world, and to all men of good will," i.e. it's trying to make statements for all people (or in whichever other contorted way you wish to interpret "men of good will"). It states that the church is opposed to contraception and this is morally reprehensible. Do you agree; if not, can you explain why?
>>80741211
From Gregory of Nyssa
>>80742814
>>80742942
He was saying that tradition should be subject to scripture if it contradicted it, which is the proper meaning of "sola scriptura." He resisted the Roman Pontiff and the Arians who ran the church on the basis of scripture, somewhat similar to Martin Luther :^)
>>80743777
Nobody is rejecting tradition unless it contradicts what the Bible says. Tradition can be fallible as is evidenced by the RCC's previous acceptance of heresy and their ever changing doctrines.
>>80741211
More from Greg,
it is enough for proof of our statement, that the tradition has come down to us from our fathers, handed on, like some inheritance, by succession from the apostles and the saints who came after them. They, on the other hand, who change their doctrines to this novelty, would need the support of arguments in abundance, if they were about to bring over to their views, not men light as dust, and unstable, but men of weight and steadiness: but so long as their statement is advanced without being established, and without being proved, who is so foolish and so brutish as to account the teaching of the evangelists and apostles, and of those who have successively shone like lights in the churches, of less force than this undemonstrated nonsense? (Against Eunomius, IV, 6)
>>80744960
Stupid, all sides of the divide agrees that Tradition cannot contradict Scripture. It's even part of the requirement of ANS Lane's "coincidence view". The view of Lane is the view of Athanasius presented where Tradition's authority lies in being the key to UNDERSTANDING scriptures. Oops idiot!
>>80744960
Also see how Tradition is also defined as the writings of the Church Fathers and doctrines in antiquity
>>80743747
Some basic pragmatism is needed here. You don't prevent the spread of AIDS by saying people shouldn't spread it. You accept that humans have some basic needs and one of them is for sexual satisfaction. You then adapt your response so that it takes this into account realistically and make forms of prevention available to actual humans as they exist in the present world.
>There is no evidence that contraception prevents AIDS
Are you a sophist or a crackpot. Condoms massively reduce the rate of AIDS in all the research I've seen, usually by 98-99 percent -- which itself is pretty fantastic. You can be pedantic about "prevent," if you want, but to me this seems to be a wonderful public health measure.
>False, the annual revenue of the vatican is equivalent to a mid-sized university, of which there are dozens, but there's only one vatican. Why don't you liberals ever criticize universities like this? Hypocrites.
I grew up surrounded by the excesses of Catholic wealth, often in the form of art, wine cellars, and property portfolios. I'm not sure what your sources are, but the scale of the Catholic Church is indicated by figures like:
"Our best window into the overall financial picture of American Catholicism comes from a 2012 investigation by the Economist, which offered a rough-and-ready estimate of $170 billion in annual spending, of which almost $150 billion is associated with church-affiliated hospitals and institutions of higher education. The operating budget for ordinary parishes, at around $11 billion a year, is a relatively small share, and Catholic Charities is a smaller share still." http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2013/03/catholic_church_and_pope_francis_religious_institutions_are_exempted_from.html
The Catholic Church is massively wealthy. This doesn't seem controversial.
>>80741211
On Basil who appeals to Tradition regarding the deity of the Holy Spirit
>>80735164
All you speak is bullshit. You haven't the faintest idea what Catholicism even is. Sad.
>>80745250
>Tradition cannot contradict Scripture
Except when it clearly does.
Scripture teaches that no man comes to the Father except through Christ.
The RCC teaches that Muslims can be saved because they worship the same God even though they don't worship Christ, in contradiction to their previous teaching that you absolutely need to be unified to the Roman Pontiff.
>>80730015
Poles are always so based in Catholic threads
>>80744214
>Mary is the second highest being after God. This is ridiculous.
We're not going to agree on how the Catholic Church treats women, though Mariology has frequently been the primary outlet for female devotion and has equally frequently been suppressed as a theological deviancy. The lack of meaningful representation of women in Catholic roles will be the undoing of Catholicism in Western countries.
>Consubstantiation is a Lutheran heresy. How man angels is a joke that is not even in the Summa Theologica
I'm not going to debate Aquinas or scholasticism. I merely point out that many of the theological issues central to Catholicism are preposterously obscure and Byzantine.
>False, there is no evidence that priests rape children at a higher rate than any other denomination or institution.
Catholic priests abuse at a similar rate to other people, though because of their piety it should be much lower. What keeps abuse rates at present levels is the extent to which Catholic administrators like Cardinal Pell or Cardinal Law protect pedophiles and allow them to reoffend on a mass scale. Was just trying to find a Catholic-produced report on this issue in Australia from about five years ago and can't. It was fascinating and very honest.
I'm curious about your position. Are you a priest / trainee? Which part of Australia? Are you part of the Society of Saint Pius X? No need to answer, if you don't want, but I'm curious about where you're situated.
>>80741211
Here, Irenaeus using Apostolic Succession against heresy.
>>80745604
responds also to >>80744214
>>80746078
You are not answering the argument and points I laid out.
Athanasius uses Tradition as a guide to Scripture and his view includes Tradition being linked to the episcopate of the Church
>>80746381
>>80746595
And as as Lutheran I have no problem with either of these points. I'm not some sort of Baptist.
>>80745604
during the time of Catholic church's biggest power prostitution was legal, omnipresent and accepted by the Church
>>80741211
More from Irenaeus which destroys sola Scriptura,
“Wherefore it is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church, those who as I have shown, possess succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of bishops, have received the certain gift of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession of the succession, and assemble themselves…But those who cleave asunder, and separate the unity of the Church, shall recieve from God the same punishments as Jeroboam did.”
– Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4, 26, 2
>>80745604
>You don't prevent the spread of AIDS by saying people shouldn't spread it.
>You don't prevent the killing of people by saying people shouldn't murder.
>You don't prevent car accidents by saying people shouldn't violate traffic norms.
You know, I agree with you. Something has to be done about it. Are you comfortable with the solutions? I hope so. Because it is not the condom.
>>80727060
Is the pope a catholic?
>>80746785
False. Athanasius use of Tradition to read Scripture entails Scripture requiring a certain tool or aid to comprehend. This destroys the Lutheran belief that the Bible is clear to all believers enlightened by the Holy Spirit.
>>80727060
I was never a member so how would I return?
>>80746847
>human nature is to desire the crashing of motor vehicles
>human nature is to desire murder
Sexuality is not crime. This is where Catholicism gets the basics of desire completely wrong and promotes all kinds of neuroses, sexual hangups, deviancies, and perverts in the making.
>>80741089
Clement of Rome destroying Sola Fide
>>80741211
Clement further trashing solanfide
>>80746833
Again, I'm not denying the importance of apostolic succession I'm saying tradition must be accountable to scripture and that men's traditions are fallible, scripture is not. Many catholic traditions such as celibate bishops, restricting the communion cup to only the priests, being able to buy your way into heaven, going to hell if you eat meat on Good Friday (now that's changed), contradict scripture.
>>80746937
If he was being judged by the standards of Catholicism 100 years ago probably not.
>>80747076
Lutherans accept canons, councils and creeds that are in line with scripture. We don't just accept things because that's what the Pope teaches, otherwise you would have to believe monotheletism and that your religion changes it's beliefs on salvation every few hundreds years.
"By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ" Ephesians 3:4
I have to go now though, sorry.
>>80739269
All men (after the Flood) started at the Tower of Babel, and were dispersed from there.
>>80740604
It's a bullshit cult just like Rome.
>>80741547
>>80741819
Google Vatican Ratlines
And those "Jews" the pope "helped" were all forcibly converted to Catholicism first, which they all of course renounced once they were safe.
>>80747837
Ohhh, so you're a scriptural literalist, aka ridiculously dogmatic and implausible person. Discussion over. Good to have that clarified. Your type is very rare among Catholics.
>>80741211
Irenaeus dissing sola Fide
return to your roots.
Our Gods are white and not sandnig
>>80747802
You are not answering the points. None of what you said showed me that somehow the Church Fathers view of Tradition from it being used to prove Doctrine and defend against heresy through an apostolic lineage are not incompatible with Sola Scriptura. None of the citations I provided showed any indication that the Traditions they used are somehow accepted because of Scripture. Such is absurd when Tradition is used to understand what Scripture says!
>>80747364
Yes and yes, we love to fuck shit up too. I mean, why are first person shooters so successful again (this is just one example out of many)? And nobody said that sexuality is a crime, just don't fuck outside of marriage (make sure to not wear a condom).
>>80727060
Orthodox master race checking in
>>80748973
No sex outside marriage is unrealistic and, consequently, destructive. Basic human pragmatism grounded in massive, large scale empirical research from fields that have been invented in the past hundred or so years, like sociology. Human knowledge is improving and Catholicism refuses to adapt or recognize this.
>>80741211
From Chrysostom dissing sola Fide,
But since after this grace, whereby we were justified, there is need also of a life suited to it, let us show an earnestness worthy the gift. And show it we shall, if we keep with earnestness charity, the mother of good deeds. Now charity is not bare words, or mere ways of speaking (prosrhseij) to men, but a taking care (prostasia) of them, and a putting forth of itself by works, as, for instance, by relieving poverty, lending one's aid to the sick, rescuing from dangers, to stand by them that be in difficulties, to weep with them that weep, and to rejoice with them that rejoice. (Rom. xii. 15.) Homily 7, Commentary on Rom. 3:31. NPNF1: Vol. X, p. 380.
>>80741211
More Chrysostom,
For what he saith is this, "Your salvation is not our work alone, but your own as well;for both we in preaching to you the word endure affliction, and ye in receiving it endure the very same; we to impart to you that which we received, ye to receive what is imparted and not to let it go." Now what humility can compare with this, seeing that those who fell so far short of him he raiseth to the same dignity of endurance? for he saith, "Which worked in the enduring of the same sufferings;" for not through believing only cometh your salvation, but also through the suffering and enduring the same things with us. NPNF1: Vol. XII, p. 277.
>>80749277
homicide happens but we do not allow it
if we say "do anything you desire" you get what you see around, shitlord
>>80749023
Ethiopians are not orthodox, you pathetic pseud.
>>80749277
>No sex outside marriage is unrealistic and, consequently, destructive.
Oh yeah, because clearly the sexual revolution has been a positive force in the world and the general morality of western culture has only increased since.
>>80749565
Criminalize things that are innate and inalienable desires, like for food, water, shelter, communication, and human contact, and you get the fucked up results you deserve. Catholicism developed out of some faulty premises about human nature. We understand desire much, much better now and as a consequence are decriminalizing acts that are fundamental to humans and that don't cause harm, like (in some cases) same-sex desire. Catholicism gets it wrong.
>>80749659
Fuck off, Chechen. You have nothing to do with Christianity.
>>80749277
>No sex outside marriage is unrealistic and, consequently, destructive
We managed fine without sex outside marriage for 10000 years and built a civilization; 50 years of promiscuity and civilization is in ruins.
>>80727060
I'll never betray the only TRUE, HOLY, APOSTOLIC CHURCH OF CHRIST
FILTHY ROMAN
>>80749979
Ethiopians are non-Chalcedon heretics, a.k.a. proto-Muslims, you dunce.
>>80750119
No, we continued having sex outside marriage. Look at the rise of syphilis in the 1490s in Europe, for an example. There's no realistic way of preventing billions of humans from not acting on desires that are innate and very strong. It's like asking your cat not to chase mice. Some might, but most won't.
>>80749928
still many people will not give a damn and do it anyway, I mean a primordial, original aim of sex was breeding not just literally fucking around
woman wants you to take care of your offspring
if there would be no external pressure on you, why would you do that? I also understand people were breeding outside Judaism or Christianity but...
look I am not going to argue, the pope is already all like "who I am to judge"
>>80750428
We continued murdering people too. Doesn't mean murder is 'innate' or should be legal.
Promiscuous sex is not an innate desire, it's fueled by porn and other degenerate bullshit.
>>80750245
>Russia is chalcedonic catholic, not Orthodox.
ftfy
>>80751167
look here Russiabro >>80749565
>>80751167
Cats will sometimes murder other cats, but it's general based on specific circumstances that can be controlled. Cats that haven't been neutered, though, will go around trying to fuck other cats. This is their nature.
The same applies to humans. Murder should be criminal and minimized as much as possible. Human desire for sexual satisfaction and connection with others should just be embraced and not stigmatized. Massive amounts of empirical research about patterns of human behavior supports this. Any archaic, theologically justified attempt to suppress sexual desire in humans is bound to fail and cause even more destruction. This is a basic point where socially controlling theology from 2000 years ago is inappropriate to our (much better) contemporary understanding of human needs. Catholicism fails on human desire.
I don't need the Roman church, I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
>>80748781
Our Gods have been around for so much longer than Jesus. It's sad how many people abandoned them.
>>80749928
>acts that are fundamental to humans and that don't cause harm, like (in some cases) same-sex desire
>same-sex
I see your agenda now.
>>80750428
>There's no realistic way of preventing billions of humans from not acting on desires that are innate and very strong.
Yes there is, we shame them in public for being degenerates and if they don't submit, we use a harsher measure. Channel your energy on something productive instead. The alternative is getting the fuck out of society and build your own lifestyle in the wilderness or accept some punishment for it (since the act alone is subversive).
>>80749803
I agree that the sexual revolution really messed things up. But to pretend this shit didn't happen before then is laughable.
>>80751643
Human sexuality is completely different from all other mammal sexuality, you moron.
Humans don't have a desire for sex, they have a strong desire for companionship.
Promiscuous sex is unnatural since it correlates negatively with companionship and makes humans very unhappy.
>>80741648
Jezu kolejny katol-zjeb. Pamiętaj Ziemia jest płaska!
>>80738845
Ignorant fuckwit who refuses to countenance any history not in his scripture, and yet comes from peoples not mentioned once in the Bible! Sad!
>>80745996
Boticelli was actualy illuminati, bro. Also this pic is from times when hipocrisy of Church was in biggest rich.
>>80752311
rużdżka jurz wymasowana?
>>80727060
You are all heretics in my book.
Portugal's support of the Papal crusade against increasing Muslim incursions into South Eastern Europe earned
the kings the title "Most Faithful Majesty" by the pope.
It was the title used by the Portuguese monarchs, from 1748 to 1910. Fidelissimus remains attached to monarchs descended from whoever received the original sobriquet. The sobriquet can be awarded to either a king or a queen. The only European monarchy that has received the sobriquet was the now-defunct monarchy of Portugal.
>>80751934
>Yes there is, we shame them in public for being degenerates and if they don't submit, we use a harsher measure.
All of recorded human history is against you and that's persuasive enough for me. Mammals are born with strong sex drives that include both an inclination toward pleasure and reproduction. This is the base-level reality and any attempt to assert the contrary is going against enormous amounts of evidence, however much you might wish everyone to be living in a pious monastic environment. That's not the world we have or have had for all of recorded history. It's not just the 1960s onward. Look at the patterns of the spread of syphilis across Europe after 1494 and see what that tells us about human sexual practice in a very pious time period. I can see why you're resisting this idea about human desire. Your an obedient little fucker and are trying to follow instructions, however impractical and unhelpful.
>>80752894
*You're
>>80752894
but you know, thank to the internet now you can get various and vast sexually arousing material like all the time
it was not like that in the old times, now you can fap to death, and it will be hard or impossible to ban porn
>>80752894
>Mammals are born with strong sex drives that include both an inclination toward pleasure and reproduction.
No they aren't. Most mammals have a short mating season where males capture and rape females painfully. Outside of the short mating season they are literally incapable of having sex. Almost no mammal finds sex pleasurable.
Human sexuality is very unique and completely unlike any other creature's.
Also, it's been pointed out to you that the fact that something is common doesn't mean it is natural or good. Are you a moron incapable of logic?
> what is your dick telling you about this picture?
> don't you want to release your urges now?
> come on, it is 2016
‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.
>>80753288
Catholics wouldn't endorse porn as a solution. But still, there's a base-level of reality to confront here. Humans innately seek sexual contact with other humans and any religious attempt to prevent this always has and always will fail. This is why it's retarded for people endorsing 2000-year-old monotheisms to endorse the principle of only-sex-in-marriage-for-the-purposes-of-reproduction. It goes against basic human biology. Even worse, it itself is the source of many effects that are evil. I honestly can't believe that modern Catholics still defend this anti-sex concept when it's so patently wrong. Most of my pious Catholic friends will accept that the Church just messed up a bit with this one.
>>80752894
Your argument is weak, it is like saying that laws that punishes people for murdering does not work because people keep doing it. Get fucked fag.
>b-but it has nuffins to do with syphils
Same logic applied to your stupid gay ass argument.
>>80753911
Look at birthrates. We are going to die.
The aim is not to stop it completely, just to reduce.
Any other ideas except taking muh unlimited number of immigrants? Or we are supposed to die out? Ironically, die out after muh progress and muh development and shit.
All the good things about Roman Catholicism are in the past, or are the work of good individuals, unsupported by the institution as a whole and often in antagonism with it. This has been the case for well over a generation. Orthodoxy looks far more dignified and respectable in comparison now. It was a shame Luther never managed to work with the Patriarch of Constantinople to come up with a better solution than he did.
>>80752043
The difference was that back then people were shamed and ashamed of slutting around. Now our society revolves around it and the family structure has completely fallen apart.
>>80727060
WAKE ME UP
>>80753736
if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.
>>80754228
The argument to me seems irresistible. It's about acknowledging:
A. what human behaviors are harmful to others and can largely be prevented, and
B. what human behaviors are not harmful to others and can largely not be prevented.
Anything in category A should be criminalized and there should be significant deterrents in place. Anything in category B should be accepted and not demonized or stigmatized (because of the destructive consequences of doing so).
Humans committing violent acts such as murder on other humans is obviously A.
Humans acting on innate sexual desire to connect with other humans and experience pleasure is obviously in category B.
This seems just so straightforward to me. The only way you can not accept this interpretation is if you already arbitrarily accept some scriptural position that asserts that B is by its very nature evil (rather than based on an evaluation of its effects on others).
I'm really curious to see if there's another line of response to what I'm outlining here. I don't think there is and it hasn't been presented yet here.
>>80754279
Birth rates in countries like Italy and Japan are not at replacement levels. I won't mind if world population goes down. The only problem is primitive religions that encourage mass reproduction in super-poor parts of the world, but there are other ways of dealing with that problem.
I don't like the cynical instrumentality of the Catholic argument:
1. We can only have reproductive sex in marriage because anything else is a sin, but
2. We actually need Catholics to reproduce because we'd rather enjoy a lot more European Catholics, and position 1 was just a bluff and a lie.
>>80727060
I don't need my children raped thanks.
>>80754809
I am not sure if I am Catholic. Muh cheek hurts too much.
>>80755648
> 2016
> not cynical
If Jewish fantasy helps, hell, I am going to accept that. Isn't science all about results and not "how the world REALLY look like"?
and you know, Christianity is not all about sex and forbidding it, maybe there will relax their teaching
the core of Christianity is love of G*d and your neighbor
>>80755055
>A. what human behaviors are harmful to others and can largely be prevented, and
>B. what human behaviors are not harmful to others and can largely not be prevented.
One could argue that moving the fingers in a certain way is harmful becase it makes someone anxious. Let's keep going until we become rocks.
It seems that consumerism, hedonism and unrestricted egoism is killing the society and is harmful for the planet. You would be surprised how the communism was giving incentives to be really efficient on muh scarce commodities.
As a child I was taking out the garbage once or twice a week and there were mostly organic. Contemporary economy wastes resources but they are all about how scarce they are.
*sorry, my grammar is kind of broken but the whole thing is not about grammar*
>>80757973
Based Pole speaks truths. As far as I can see the main reason for people dropping religion is to live the hedonistic life guilt free. People have become much more self centred which has resulted in the complete collapse of local community and family structure.
im a catholic guys
*kisses refugee feet*
refugees welcome btw
>>80727060
No. Islam is my religion now.
>>80758735
You're wrong in my case. I simply do not believe that the death of Jesus could have any impact on the state of my own spiritual welfare. That makes me not a Christian. As for not being a Catholic, well, the celibate priesthood is a totally unnecessary abberation, which the older eastern Churches do without, and which has led to unspeakable and most importantly UNFORGIVEABLE abuses in the Roman Church. The absurd attitude taken against Orthodoxy by the Papacy, now and down the centuries, is stupid too. All that said, I go along with the externalities, local processions, rites of passage for myself and my children in the parish church, and even am on good personal terms with our two priests.
>>80727060
reminder that orthodox church is infiltrated by freemasons. if you really think the orthodox church is high and mighty you're romanticizing the east too much.
both churches have lost their way, so at that point who do you choose? the one of your ancestors or the one of heretics who sat on their asses as muslims took over?
>>80758735
this
kids are just a fucking annoyance in a consumerist life, so why to have them at all?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kzaWtY0Bwg
>>80759395
>heretics who sat on their asses as muslims took over
A childish and deeply ignorant thing to say. Quite shameful, in fact.
>>80728884
i don't know why you guys are upset, this is a catholic thread, no? why be upset by a bunch of Catholics taking over a protestant country?
>>80759672
Latin America is literally rapidly turning protestent.
Guatamala now has more protestants than Catholics
Brazil isn't that far away with the speed of conversions
Lol no I figured out it was bullshit when I was a child.
the catholic church is becoming more and more cucked in an attempt to increase membership and the image it projects to the world.
FUCK THAT. Stick to your core principles. VATICAN II was a fucking mistake and catholicism has bee fucked since then.
>>80759361
>I simply do not believe that the death of Jesus could have any impact on the state of my own spiritual welfare.
Correct, because Christ isn't dead.
