Whats your take on Existential nihilism? Is it the truest Redpill one can take?
>>80046605
A dead end.
>>80046605
read Nitzesche again anon. He offers a solution how to overcome nihilism rather than promoting universal meaninglessness.
You did not understand Nihilism nor Existencialism.
>>80046605
Anarcho-Communism in a nutshell from prior experience with the fuckers
It's just a matter of perspective. Even if life is 'meaningless' and is going nowhere, experiencing the universe as an individual could be interpreted as the meaning.
>>80046605
It's not a bad take considering we're destined to keep killing each other on this god forsaken rock, until human society wont even be able to rebuild anything from the ashes that remain.
>>80046605
its the ultimate red pill that no one wants to accept
see the entire threads response. nothing but cowards.
>>80046605
It's basically the only true thought. Everything else is giving answers to a question you don't know.
>meaning has no meaning and value has no value
Then why even use words? The very claim that life has no intrinsic value means you're operating from some kind of Platonic ideal of "value" in your head. And if you're really an existentialist (i.e. someone who is focused with viewing the world with respect to the individual experience rather than an external realm) then where the hell could that Platonic idea of value come from other than intrinsically from oneself?
>>80046605
i'm here to tell you to not drink that coolaid
if life is worthless to you, at least dedicate it to someone or something else
nihilism isn't a natural or sophisticated state of mind it's a cancer that will absolutely kill you eventually
>>80046605
The true meaning of life is that we are the universe thats trying to experience itself.
So what are you waiting for, go the fuck out and EXPERIENCE YOURSELF.
>>80046605
Yes.
You must find subjective meaning.
Who cares, OP? Seriously.
>>80047023
you think you're so bad or somefuckingthing, but are you even happy? it's a defensive philosophical position to take when things aren't going your way. the sourest fucking grapes on earth
>>80047055
Its an illusion
>>80046801
This. If you don't overcome the abyss of nihilism and create your own value (since all value is manmade anyway) then you're no better than the rest of the ignorant masses clinging on to some long dead man's ideal.
>>80047060
Being born will absolutely kill you eventually. And that's the point.
Nothing matters in the end. We won't change anything in the grand scheme of things.
>>80047122
Thats doesnt deny its veracity.
You might feel better because youve avoided the question, but you havent solved it.
You could however say that its a question that shouldnt or cant be solved
>>80047232
there's nobody alive that doesn't know that, why reinvent the wheel and obsess over mortality when you could at least fucking try to do something
>>80046605
>ifunny
Have a smuggie
>>80046605
a good excuse to kill yourself.
>>80047313
>Thats doesnt deny its veracity.
because i believe him
>You could however say that its a question that shouldnt or cant be solved
not bad i'll do that
Determinism is where it's at.
>>80046605
nihilism is spiritual poison senpai
>>80047169
The heck is an illusion and where does it exist? It's fine for artists to paint in symbolism, but it doesn't make for very sober philosophy.
>he got this from ifunny
lmao what the fuck
>>80047516
It's a meme dipshit
>>80047180
Youre no better than anything no matter what.
Convincing yourself youre better is no different from everyone else who thinks theyre better
>>80047535
how is this a meme on ifunny where everyone is 12
>>80047459
Do you know what an illusion is? It doesnt exist you just think it does
>>80047690
Sounds more like absurdism than existential nihilism. Not a very sophisticated idea; it's existed since before written language and has never yielded anything worth remembering (other than perhaps Plato's rebuke of it).
>>80047547
You have no idea what I'm talking about. It has nothing to do with "convincing yourself you're better." It's about realizing that all value and morality, purpose and meaning are manmade concepts, and that you can either create your own and live them to the fullest, achieving true self actualization and fufillment, or you can buy into what someone else is selling and live your life a slave to someone else's idea, or even worse, no idea.
Nihilism is realizing it's all "meaningless," but you shouldn't stop there. The next step is creating your own meaning.
Read a book nigger
>>80046605
babies first philosophy
Adolfs got it right >>80046801
>>80047647
...the ifunny banner itself is the meme anon. You slap one on an image that would never be on ifunny and presto you've got low tier giggles for almost nothing at all.
How long have you been on 4chan?
>>80047647
>wanged
>>80046605
You should try Absurdism on for size, OP.
In a nutshell:
>(Human) life has no meaning
>There ain't no sky wizards either
>Errythang's so fuckin crazy, maybe I should an hero.
>Wait, if none of this shit makes sense, then that means I don't gotta make sense either.
>So what's the craziest shit I can do In a pointless ass-backwards world?
>Say fuck it and make my own way, my own meaning. Now that's fuckin' crazy.
Put another way: in the face of insanity the most insane thing to do is pretend to be sane.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism
Be free, my pretties.
>>80046605
It's pretty shit to live like this, would not recommend from personal experience.
>>80047997
That doesnt even make sense, if there is no meaning, then all arguments end.
Anythig else you do after that is just fluff, you can do it, but it doesnt matter
>>80046605
Significance and value are created, assigned, and measured by human beings. The very concepts themselves do not inherently exist and therefore existential nihilism is based on the presupposition of these concepts.
To that end, believing in or spending time thinking about existential nihilism is an insignificant act. It has no benefit to the individual considering the concept.
So, no, existential nihilism is the ultimate blue pill. The ultimate red pill is that value and significance are created by you as an individual. There is no greater act of defiance against an uncaring cosmos than to create worth where there is none.
>>80048348
I'm sorry you're too stupid to understand what I'm talking about.
>>80048348
Retard
>>80046605
The principles on which Existential Nihilism are based are undeniably true. The problem is it doesn't tell us how to deal with such an interpretation of reality. It does not in any way indicate what a person is to do with that knowledge. I personally found the most repeated solution of finding your own meaning to be unsatisfactory. Somehow it felt like the act of even trying to find meaning was a complete antithesis to Nihilism itself.
Personally,I found Zen Buddhism to be the most satisfactory and concordant solution to the nihilist problem. And I'm not talking about the western cookie cutter interpretation of what Zen is. Will elaborate further if anyone is interested.
>>80049125
Elaborate pls
>>80046605
Existentialism is the true happiness.
>You're not born with some intrinsic "meaning"
>If you want some sort of meaning in your life you have to assign it yourself
>Nothing in this universe has a "natural" meaning or purpose
>There are people in THIS THREAD RIGHT NOW who aren't existentialists
>>80046605
Hedonism is the true redpill, and a logical consequence to nihilism. If everything is pointless, the only point can be in finding pleasure and amusement.
>>80046605
No because it can only exist in the absence of Christianity.
We may perceive ourself as having no value and being insignificant, but God places value upon us, and who are we to question God.
>>80046605
>>80046605
Nihilism is only appropriate when combined with healthy optimism.
Nihilism is a tool, and like any tool, nigger will use it to destroy society while the enlightened will use it for self-preservation.
Ill-used nihilism is as degenerate as anything can be.
>>80047434
The 17th century called, they said: they want their philosophy back.
>>80048638
>>80048662
No u.
Philosophy is just bullshit anyways, really who gives a fuck
>>80049273
Buddhism is the world's largest cult.
Fortunately it's a peaceful cult.
>>80046605
>supposedly is worth $10 billion .
>one percent would be $100,000,000
>begging for money.
I will never vote for Hillary, but trump is pissing me off.
>>80050029
Don't know much about Burma, do you?
>>80049125
It doesnt have a solution because there isnt a meaningful one.
Anything you come up with after accepting existantial.nihilism is meaningless. You either accept it or you dont
>>80050029
I get Buddhism pretty well, I just want to hear Indianons take on it.
I heard poo in loos get +5 to spirituality
>>80049999
People with functioning intellects
Disease of the mind.
>>80046605
This >>80046712
Existential nihilism can't be an end because there is still so much in our universe to discover.
We've barely scraped the bucket for "the meaning of life"
>>80050414
Gas the Abrahamics! Tipocaust now!
>>80047647
>wanged
Fuck that's funny.
>>80049999
>Philosophy is just bullshit anyways, really who gives a fuck
It's thought provoking and enables easier linkage from the creation of principle to principle.
That's why it's important. They tend to give more context to modern sciences. Elaborates on it's discoveries.
>B-b-but I`m important. I am significant. Except completely meaningless in a scale of my own neighborhood.
How existential nihilism not the only truth of this life ? Your life is meaningless, so is everyone else.
Someone pointed out, that we haven`t discovered much in the universe.
But how does that correlate with the meaningfulness of the human race ? - Exactly, it doesn`t. Discover all you want, you`ll only be able to understand the processes, but not to change them. It still won`t give you a purpose ? Because, how is discovery of the unknown a purpose ? Most people won`t be able to do that either way, discovery done is by a few with the intellect to do so, not you shitlords.
Some of you are like dust mites trying to explain to themselves that they are the meaning of the pillow, and that the pillow exists to host them.
Baby's first redpill
>>80050165
Well that's the muslims fault.
>>80047055
Value and meaning can exist as concepts that ultimately don't matter.
Nothing matters. Existing currently or not, it's all fleeting in the grand scheme.
Well THE BIBLE says it's not true. If u disagre ur a fat autistic fedora loser lol.
Pic related: Doesn't believe in bible.
>>80046605
when you die there is nothing, that is all
Existential Nihilism is the ultimate redpill but also by its very nature is utterly meaningless. It also takes a view that is too zoomed out from the individuality of humans, because while it may be true that nothing matters, that also includes nothing mattering. Even if I understand the biological process behind which I feel pain, it still fucking hurts to get my hand cut off. Even if I understand that there is no inherent meaning to life and the universe (that we are aware of) it doesn't affect me at all, because I take that meaninglessness and say "so what?"
>>80046605
It's a self-defeating philosophy.
Like many tautologies it proves itself true by its own existence but can provide nothing more.
There is no purpose behind it and no change can come from it.
Existential nihilism is the formal way of saying
>fuck it
>I can't change the entire universe so I won't do anything at all
It is an extremely retarded pov
>>80049273
1/2
Let me first say that I'm not a Buddhist and I haven't trained with a master.So I cannot vouch for the authenticity of my interpretation.I do however consider myself a student of Buddhism. So here is what I've learnt.
The most central concept of Buddhism is the principle of impermanence. Nothing in the universe stays the same. Everything perishes. The concept of meaning is, for the lack of a better word-meaningless.However the unfortunate side effect of human sentience is that we cling to this idea of ourselves being different. We are afraid of our impermanence. We fear the fact that our body ages, our mind frays, our societal status is in a constant state of flux. To the point that people pray to delay if not prevent the inevitable.Buddha after meditating on the root of all suffering, concluded that it was the concept of self. We seek meaning in our lives because we perceive ourselves as individuals separate from there universe-2 different agents acting on each other. In actuality, the concept of self doesn't exist.
>>80049273
2/2
To better understand the concept of self you need to understand Zen.
If you ask a Zen master what Zen is, he'd probably laugh at you. That's because if Zen could be defined in words it wouldn't be Zen. Zen is not a concept. It is not conventional knowledge. What does that mean? Conventional knowledge is what a Zen master would call anything that can be expressed or explained. Ever since we were born we were taught to think in terms of concepts. We analyse the world in terms of concepts even though they are at best merely a representation of reality. Language is a set of words that represent concepts that we have all agreed to share for the sake of convenience. We have arms, fingers, hands, elbows, joints, ligaments, tendons to describe body parts. But the body does not recognise these parts as separate-that separation is completely arbitrary. So then what is unconventional knowledge? It's knowledge that facilitates a bird to build a nest without being taught how to do so or a baby smiling for the first time without being taught what it means to smile. What is the point of all this? The idea is that there is clearly a reality that cannot be expressed by human understanding. Zen monks attempt to get a glimpse of this higher reality through meditation (zazen) but this can be done in regular life just by being mindful and observant.
>>80049273
3/2 because I have now shit to say
Just as the separation of the body into its parts is arbitrary the concept of self in the same way is a human concept which is useful as a reference point in the real world. But it has no bearing to reality. In a swarm of ants the hopes and dreams of the individual ant is meaningless-but it doesn't diminish the role of each ant.
Zen Buddhism is an attempt to reconcile with this concept of non self. It makes you realise that it is okay for life in itself to be meaningless because the self too is meaningless.
I've tried my best to condense an entire school of thought to the most important ideas. But what appealed to me the most about Zen Buddhism is that it does not attempt to convert your ideology. Buddha said to his disciples on the day he died to disregard all authority including his own and to be one's own guide. He had spent a lifetime reflecting on life's tough questions and reached his own conclusions. That's all he had to offer. It is for you to reflect and to find out if you reach the same conclusions too.As an atheist who felt the need for some spiritual fulfillment it fit perfectly into my worldview.
>>80046605
No, not even. Every blue pilled degenerate fucker I know is a hedonistic nihilist. It's the ultimate blue pill of apathy and failure.
>>80046605
If your a dumb fucking faggot who wants to plunge the world into a dark age go for it.
Real shit has to be fought for dipshit. Just because we aren't molding the universe doesn't mean we shouldn't try and preserve whats good you fucking shitter.
>>80046605
Given the scale of the universe It's not a theory, it's a fact I can't deny. But then again, I couldn't care less about it. You shouldn't base your actions on it as well.
>>80051173
Yea no.
Not modern science im afraid. There are almosg no philosophical applications to it
>>80054952
>I don't know what existentialism is
No existentialist has ever said we shouldn't try to preserve what's good, you dipshit.
Also: good doesn't exist
>>80047359
Nothing wrong with being a nihilist. At least a nihilist wont stab you in the back for money or glory.
>>80055098
> No existentialist has ever said we shouldn't try to preserve what's good
> good doesn't exist
How does your brain function? Does it normally do this bad of a job at working?
>>80054504
Fascinating as the concept is, I personally see zen as much more of a method by which to escape from the existential problems arising from our sense of self and consciously acknowledging our own consciousness than anything relating to understand so called higher knowledge.
To me Zen is the opposite extreme to all spiritual and supernatural explanations people invent and adhere to for wont of answers to question that have no meaning
>what is our purpose
>why are we here
>etc
Instead of trying to answer these questions, Zen instead attempts to reconcile the individual with the fact that such question not only have no answer but also have no sense within themselves.
It's so close to apathy that the boundary is practically non-existent and yet the key difference, in my understanding, is that while apathy merely rejects all things Zen goes further and teaches to embrace the nothingness of apathy and use it as blank canvass rather than wallow and drown within the murky depths.
As it stands, I wholly support the philosophy it teaches simply because it allows for the same level of living as any religious or spiritual ideal that fills the void of meaning while avoiding the pitfall of fanaticism (mostly).
On the other hand it is considerably more difficult to accept than a more fanciful explanation and does not foster a community spirit anywhere near as much, the latter being rather detrimental to society.
In short Zen is good for those possessing power of any sort and any who excel beyond the average in all fields except art andculture.
>>80046801
>Nietzche
Or just watch JUST DO IT. Basically the same thing
>>80055543
>Does it normally do this bad of a job at working?
Yes.
What I meant when I said "Good doesn't exist", is that it doesn't exist intrinsically. You're not born good, you're not born bad.
You assign something to be good, be that thing yourself, or something else, but until you assign "good" to that thing, it is neither good nor bad.
>>80046712
Why is a dead end a negative thing?
>>80046605
If there is no immortality, the Liberal believes, one can still lead a civilized life; "if there is no immortality"-is the far profounder logic of Ivan Karamazov in Dostoyevsky's novel-"all things are lawful." Humanist stoicism is possible for certain individuals for a certain time: until, that is, the full implications of the denial of immortality strike home. The Liberal lives in a fool's paradise which must collapse before the truth of things. If death is, as the Liberal and Nihilist both believe, the extinction of the individual, then this world and everything in it-love, goodness, sanctity, everything-are as nothing, nothing man may do is of any ultimate consequence and the full horror of life is hidden from man only by the strength of their will to deceive themselves; and "all things are lawful," no otherworldly hope or fear restrains men from monstrous experiments and suicidal dreams.
>>80046605
It doesn't seem relevant to anything
>>80046605
>jews control everything, and use shitskins to kill off whites
>nothing left in the world besides a few powerful jews and lots of shitskins
>jews got what they wanted, but in the grand scheme of things they're still nothing so they wasted their time
>a rock finally hits the earth and it explodes
>the end
Either that, or the Jews fly to another planet to start anew, only to be wiped the fuck out by an alien species.
Whatever happens, I'll be laughing in my grave.
>>80055678
Thats called moral relativism and its something that dipshit cowards buy into because they don't have the balls to stand up for whats right.
> but whats right?! hurr durr
Kill yourself. I know what right and wrong is and your attempt at confusing me (when its really just confusing yourself) is a waste of time. Moral relativism isn't something anyone will a brain prescribes to.
>>80055739
It serves no purpose.
It cannot lead to change and so cannot be useful.
It short it holds absolutely zero potential making it worthless.
>>80056020
Thats a misconception. It is a departure from commonly held beliefs that what people do matters.
It might be edgy and contrarian, but even that has effect
>>80055912
You're retarded.
>>80055912
But objectivly speaking there is no such thing as right and wrong, maybe right (as in good )for you, but it's not something universal.
>>80056318
I see where you're coming from.
It serves to correct the misconception that anything can matter in an absolute sense.
The idea itself though, were people to not instinctively assign themselves importance, serves no purpose.
Is it fucked up that I agree with that? The world could blow up tomorrow and the universe will continue
>>80056573
>The world could blow up tomorrow and the universe will continue
no shit, sherlock
>>80046605
It's the truth. We make our own purpose. What's there to discuss?
>>80056534
Thats called moral relativism. Its what stupid people think because they don' have morals and values.
You are presenting an argument under the notion that I agree with your statement. I don't. I think its a logical fallacy dumb people fall into.
> but it's not something universal.
Wrong. You are just too much of a dumb pussy to stand up for universal values.
>>80047023
Lol, i have a hard time coming up with anything more cowardly than existential nihilism.
>>80056534
Technically that's not true either.
If a clear set of simple goals were defined it would be relatively simple to construct a set of rules which work to maximise efficiency in achieving them.
For example the goal of life itself, to procreate and spread, would gives rise to many rules similar to today's "morals".
>Work as a community
>Do not disrupt the community
>Do not harm the community or its members
>etc
These would be objectively "good" and actions going against them would be objectively "bad" (right/wrong) with respect to the goal of life and humans in particular.
>>80056717
You place far too much import on the value of humanity.
Do you think we were made in God's image?
>>80056717
I belive in universal values, but that's beacause I belive in God. So how do you know what is a universal value, do you use your feelings to determine?
>>80047023
this, fucking cowards afraid to admit that this life has no meaning. they are so coward that create a god and believe their own bullshit and reliefe themselves with their own bullshit
>sometimes drug users dont have this much imagination
cowardness is best shit ever to use as a drug i guess
>>80056813
Sure, but who says that the goal of life is to procreate and spread. Maybe I don't want kids, maybe I enjoy hurting people. If morality is objective, convince me that i shouldn't do those things.
>>80047997
>Nihilism is realizing it's all "meaningless," but you shouldn't stop there. The next step is creating your own meaning.
>life is meannless
>you should create your own meaning
Not sure if I understood you, but if we can create our own meaning of life, than the fact that life has no meanings is a worthless fact.
Something like:
Guy A and guy B are near fridge
Guy A is thristy.
Guy A: "Look its, a glass"
Guy B: "Yeah, but Its empty."
Guy A: "Who cares? There is a fridge with water near us."
If we can just fill the glass with water, than the fact that is empty is irrelevant.
>>80056914
You place far too much importance on being a whiny shitter on the internet. I get that your life is utterly shit but just because I believe in humanity and its values doesn't mean I got some warped view.
The things I express are inherent to all man, it takes years of being told otherwise to believe such things as nihilism.
> Do you think we were made in God's image?
I think something gave us a purpose here, whether its nature or god. Just because you want to laugh at that purpose doesn't mean you have the right answer.
>>80055579
I don't see Zen becoming a religious replacement for the masses. A lot of people expect more from a religion or a philosophy of living than Zen has to offer. I also don't see the artifacts of religion-the symbols, the attire, the traditions, the praying as ever being a part of Zen because it defeats the whole idea.
Why do you think Zen is only reserved for those in power through? I think it can work for anyone regardless of their status in society. But yes I do agree it is not for everyone.
I personally suffered from depression for the longest time. Nothing worked-not therapy, not medication, not drugs. For a period of time I was constantly thinking about killing myself. When I first found Zen, something in my mind clicked and it all made sense. It's hard to explain but I understood what it was about. And like that, I came out of my depression. I stopped running from my failings and imperfections and started embracing them.I meditate and reflect every day and it has done more for me than therapy every will. I post about this here because I know there is someone out there reading this who would benefit from Zen as much as I did.
>>80056994
Nope, God.
>Whats your take on Existential nihilism? Is it the truest Redpill one can take?
Yes but it will cripple you emotionally and turn you into an edgy, depressed loser like me. Not that it matters.
Objective morality or truth does not exist. Good and Evil are arbitrary human inventions.
>>80049999
Whew check muh quads
>>80056562
Its purpose is to demolish philosophical determinism. Its a kind of anarcho-philosophy, or counter philosophy.
You could say as useful to human society as anarchy is to government. Its not supposed to be useful, its the ideological opposite.
>>80057118
Life says so. It is what it has been designed to do. Designed by itself through countless iterations for the sole purpose of survival and procreation.
The reason you or I can go against these objective morals is because we have enough thinking power to override the natural instincts of nature.
Take suicide as proof.
The fact that it is possible for us to forcefully go against our inherent purpose does not change the fact that doing so is against our nature.
It takes incredibly amounts of stress and subsequently screwing up of natural processes for a mind to reach a state where it can bypass the built-in programming.
Sadists and psychopaths are fundamentally broken. They are the rejects who cannot in any possibility proliferate and achieve the goals set by life. Given time and resources they would eventually create their own demise.
As such they are not an effective form of life.
Logic will convince any would-be exception to nature that their current form of existence is unsustainable and self-detrimental.
If the concept of self-harm does not sway then there is no purpose to convince, such individuals should rightfully be used as tools in controlled environments or purged.
The law of numbers says that this kind of thinking cannot be common and will never be in sufficient quantity to rule eternal. Eventually something would replace their inevitable downfall that would adhere to nature's original rule-set. The universe carries on as before.
>>80046904
this is the conclusion I've come to. Nothing matters and everything we do is to feed our dopamine addiction. however, there's an entire world out there to experience and even though its small and insignificant in the grand scale of things, there Is more to explore than I could possible accomplish in my lifetime.
>>80046605
Read some camus
>>80057184
Things inherent to all men are instinct. Instinct is refined but not the most efficient or effective method, not always.
It's one thing to fall into apathy and another to release oneself of bonds that no longer apply to the current iteration of our existence.
Nihilism is the equivalent of a blank slate.
If you do nothing with the blank slate you are worthless.
If however, you take from the past only the best of inherent values and mix with new innovations you will rise far higher but to make something new you must first discard the old.
Slow gradual change is easier and much better in the chaotic environment we actually live in.
But the blank slate is considerably more efficient.
>I think something gave us a purpose
Me too. In my belief system that is nature and how reality functions.
The difference is that I do not need any purpose or higher power to paint the canvas for me. I look upon their works and aspire to make my own instead of *only* modifying theirs.
>>80057648
>appeal to nature
Not really convincing
>>80057648
>Sadists and psychopaths are fundamentally broken. They are the rejects who cannot in any possibility proliferate and achieve the goals set by life. Given time and resources they would eventually create their own demise.
Except for all those warlords and dictators who, especially in the past and even now in some countries get to call the shots and procreate maybe more than normal people. In modern society (which is built on a christian basis) this kind of sick behaviour is not accepted, but often time it actually makes more sense for the individual, esepcially in times of crisis or civil unrest.
>>80057217
I completely agree, it cannot and never will replace religion as most see it.
>reserved for those in power
Misunderstanding. I think it should be almost mandatory for those in power. It should be open to anyone.
It is indeed a poetic sort of idea that depression, in some forms a lack of sense and self, can be overcome by accepting this rather than the usual method of distraction until your clock runs out.
>>80057973
This >>80057990 as well, anyone can just say that what they'r doing is in their nature, so there is no reason to change and philosophy becomes meaningless.
>>80057990
Doesn't need to be.
Reality doesn't care if you are convinced.
Just because you can deny a fact does not make this fact untrue.
Just because our actions ultimately stem from chemical processes, and we are just like every other animal in that regard, that does not mean that our needs are necessarily the same. Humans require more than just food, sleep, entertainment, and so on in order to achieve their biological goal, which is content. Brilliant works of art, constructs from a small cottage to a metropolis, manipulating nature to incredible heights - these things would not exist if humans were content with merely shitting everywhere. The scope of the universe is irrelevant.
>>80058350
Actually, on second thought, there probably are some people who are fine with just eating and sleeping and watching anime. Nevermind.
>>80058026
You're quite right. Many traits that come with psychopathy are incredibly practical.
A virus is designed to use the host's own power against them and thus rise far above what it could achieve in a vacuum.
However the extreme of any trait is always less effective in the long term than a dynamic equilibrium in which change is constant.
We have unfortunately reached a stage where wide-spread evolution is almost meaningless but it will still be true that traits of selfishness and traits of community spirit will seesaw depending on what works best at any given moment.
If there are too many soft people then the potential will be exploited by someone uncaring.
Once selfishness is the norm that society will crumble and community will regain footing to stabilise and then progress will be forcefully driven again while breaking its own foundations.
That is the cycle:
>stabilise
>advance
>repeat
>>80057648
>Sadists and psychopaths are fundamentally broken. They are the rejects who cannot in any possibility proliferate and achieve the goals set by life
Except all the big time CEOs, presidents, leaders of most countries.
>goals set by life
Since when did "life" start setting goals? Other than "stay alive". Do you mean goals set by society?
>Given time and resources they would eventually create their own demise.
Except they would and DO thrive, they allow nothing to stand in the way of their goals.
You've got a really warped opinion of people who "suffer" from ASPD.
>>80058262
Nature is no longer the most effective or efficient rule setter.
It used to be that the only way to find the best path was to try them all until something worked.
Now we can analyse and predict results without actually implementing them and thus our progress is guided rather rather than forcefully pushed.
Any appeal to nature serves only to show how things can be done when all else fails because it has proven to be effective if not efficient in the past.
>>80058277
Reality doesn't care, but very often the individual doesn't either. So where is the objective morality. If it is objective then you should be able to convince a rational person with different desires to change, instead you just say "well, they'r broken abominations". So the people who would agree with your views are those who already feel the same way to begin with, there i no argument from what i can tell, that wouldhelp people improve.
>>80058713
Of course major controllers fit the category of outsiders.
That is exactly what the traits were "designed" for. To take advantage of number.
They are as necessary as any "normal" individuals but, just like any predator, their numbers must be held in check and there must always be magnitudes more subjects than controllers.
>staying alive
That is the goal(s) I meant. Survive and procreate.
>do thrive
only because they exist within the limitations. What I mean is that were their numbers to suddenly increase considerably they would eventually crumble their own foundations.
>ASPD
Admittedly I did a very poor job of bringing my point across.
Such individuals are absolutely necessary for efficient and continual progress. They simply cannot be the dominant representative of the populace (by number, not by power).
>>80058815
Well ok, so you agree then that there is no such thing as objective morality, from a strictly rational point of view?
>>80058850
Ah that is the beauty. Individuals don't care because you never care about what's normal.
There are no feelings attached to instinct beyond those that instincts impose.
Again, I did a poor job of actually putting my point across but I do not believe that those who do not adhere to the majority view of community are obstacles. They are necessary. I simply wanted to convey that because that side of the coin is far more capable and likely to cause great harm it is they that must be controlled more so than the majority who would, left to their own devises, eventually stagnate and perhaps regress slightly but would never lead to complete disaster as opposed to the selfish who, if not checked actually could inflict centuries if not millennia of retardation on society's progress.
>>80059234
No. There is no absolute morality because goals can change. But given certain goals there can definitely be objective rules (morality), ie specific instructions that objectively help to achieve those goals.
The difference being that absolute morality would be the same regardless of any other circumstances while objective morality may be determined through logic alone give the parameters of an environment.
>>80059470
Well, you didn't really answer my question. Where is the objective morality? Why should cruel/ fucked up people change? You talk about control and them being usefull, but what does that have to do with morality? Wer'e not talking politics, so i don't know why you'r bringing all of society in the conversation.
>>80059599
Well yah, that's what I was saying to begin with, so i don't know why you started contradicting me.
>>80046605
Goes against the ultimate truth of religious naturalism
Existential nihilism is the depressed autistic cousin of Existentialism.
If you want to tip your fedora and you realize that society is built on bullshit, become an existentialist. Make your OWN values in this lifetime.
Existential Nihilism though, that does no good for anybody.
>>80059154
>Admittedly I did a very poor job of bringing my point across.
Yea a little, I see what you're getting at now though.
>That is the goal(s) I meant. Survive and procreate.
How does suffering from aspd hinder that? It's not like they're mentally inept, you won't often see people with aspd shooting themselves in the face by accident. They're usually quite intelligent, and know that preserving themselves is vital to achieving what they desire. Aside from the "This thing will hurt me, and I'm not afraid of that" which can obviously lead to death. Procreation is something they thrive at, often a little too well.
>What I mean is that were their numbers to suddenly increase considerably they would eventually crumble their own foundations.
How would having a significant population of people with aspd hinder the populous to a halt? You compared them to predators, which is a fair comparison, but not quite accurate. It's not like they're literal predators seeking the weak to feast on them, such as lions or what-have-you. The only feasible way that they would crumble everything beneath them would be if it was a population of solely people with ASPD. But, that's extremely improbable.
Also: the same thing can be said if the population were nothing but "normies" it would turn into an infestation, eventually leading to their own demise by overpopulation.
Too much of anything is a bad thing.
>>80059907
Alright.
>Why should cruel/ fucked up people change?
If their particular brand of fucked-upness does not benefit their surrounding environment then the environment will retaliate and by multiplication of power though numbers simply remove them from existence. At worst any damage they cause will only serve to strengthen the environment against any future similar trouble.
>What does it have to do with morality
The good vs evil sense of morality is merely a framework built by people around the concept of what helps us and what doesn't with the added factor of emotions and instinct thrown in.
This framework changes depending on recent events but the underlying fundamental upon which it is built is fairly rigid seeing how the overall goal of an environment (survival) is constant.
>Where is objective morality
It's the actions that, in their very essence either help or harm an environment in surviving.
It is derived purely from logic but never implemented alone because humans add on their own sense of good/evil depending on what is in fashion at the time.
Several centuries ago burning a sack of cats alive was family entertainment. This action is neither objectively bad nor good because its objective effects on society are too minimal to matter.
Nowadays it is seen as immoral not because objective morality has changed but because society's interpretation of good/evil has. It still holds close to zero objective moral weighting.
(Though it can be argued that adhering to the sanctity of life and not deriving enjoyment from another being's suffering, sentient or otherwise, is actually a net positive affect on our environment in an objective sense).
>>80060127
Objective vs absolute
>>80046605
Absurdism is better and fits this board well
>>80046605
>ifunny
>>80046605
Stopping at the point of the universe having no meaning and using it as justification to do and feel nothing is a wasteful meme.
>>80046605
It is the only right view.
The most logical thing is there is no greater purpose, no life after death, when we die we simply cease to exist. Sooner or later, humanity and all life on Earth will go extinct. Sooner or later all evidence that it ever existed will perish. There is no meaning, there is no purpose. Do whatever makes you happy and never think about the future.
Believing anything else is a huge leap of faith and it WILL make you miserable.
>>80060618
>how does suffering from ASPD hinder [survival and procreation]
When the number of those afflicted reaches a certain concentration all of society suffers because a society comprised of too many predators will eventually starve itself or in humanity's case cause too much collateral damage to continue functioning. It's not bad for the individual (balancing pros/cons aside) if it is kept in check but if many had ASPD then the whole environmental system decays.
>Not literal predators
Almost. The more effective an ASPD individual is the more damage they cause to their environment in their attempts to improve it.
An equivalent would be if lions went around sowing grass for gazelles or better yet forcing gazelles to gather it up in piles so that all more gazelles could eat.
One lion can only do so much and the better he is at it the better it is for all other gazelles that aren't enslaved. But when more gazelles are enslaved to too many lions than there are gazelles to actually feed and support those lions then the food supply for the lions runs dry and the gazelles eventually die off as well because all the grass has been harvested once but they must then wait for new grass to grow naturally as they don't know how to sow it themselves without the lions there to direct them.
>>80060618
>Population of normies
>Too much of anything is bad
Yes but not as bad. A population of normies will eventually stabilise with nature and regress back to the foundations. Each cycle of ASPD rule slightly raises the foundations while themselves living in the skyscrapers on top. But if a society of ASPDs collapses it doesn't just take the skyscrapers with it, it also makes the latest foundations unworkable.
For a short example:
If the left dream is realised in its entirety and they have absolute control society will regress by in terms of genome selection and cultural morality.
This, while incredibly unpleasant is something that can be recovered with almost no forceful pushing. Society will naturally tend back towards where we are now because that's a better way of doing it.
If the progressives achieve their dream and then collapse the necessary infrastructure needed to keep high level manufacturing running dies and suddenly we've lost the major technological progress which is not something that can easily be rebuilt without a force pushing it (such as war). It could be decades or it could be never before what was lost is recovered.
>>80046801
>>80046605
life is.... THE WILL TO POWER!!!
babby's first edgy philosophy
>>80051333
how do you quantify "meaning"? I disagree that I'm "meaningless." Relative to the age of the universe, sure, but how autistic is it to use that as your only framing for meaning
>>80057269
best post ITT
>>80061971
>The more effective an ASPD individual is the more damage they cause to their environment in their attempts to improve it.
That's literally what humans do already though.
>Force animals to breed for us to consume
If society were comprised mostly of people with ASPD, they would make it work, and it would probably be much better than it is now.
They'd force the normies into their own little segregated areas for them to pray on. Sure, it'd be bad for the normies, but only bad for them.
But, this implies that all people with aspd have to pray on someone. And that all the people who have been prayed on are no longer available to be prayed on again, such as the case with the lions, when they pray on a gazelle, that gazelle is dead, and has been consumed. No longer to be prayed on again. But that isn't the case with (most) people with aspd. Unless they're just murderers, which most aren't.
it just means you're to lazy to keep looking fro an actual answer
>>80064712
>humans do already
The methods are effective so they are wide-spread.
>It would work better
All of humanity's greatest achievements are built by throwing man-power at it with nor regard for welfare. Of course it would work better. It's just not sustainable when the subjugated are relatively close to the controllers in terms of mental capacity and outnumber them vastly (an absolute necessity for the moment).
Far better to simply advance technology until it can replace people. Much less risk of internal conflict arising from fanaticism.
>those preyed on cannot be reused
Certain slots must be permanently filled. Once you make someone a garbage collector you cannot re-purpose them without replacing them.
No, there is no reality where effectual enslavement of a larger portion of a population comprised of individuals not far removed from the elevated that can be sustained indefinitely.
Slavery died out because society started valuing sanctity of all life.
Capitalism is doing a fine job at the moment but it already clear the current system only function because we can produce more people to fill needed roles faster than those being used are expended.
There is actually legitimate hope that it will last long enough for technology to solve the problem.
Sadly the system is conic so as the tip of progress is thrust higher the base of those below expands exponentially.
That's also something technology can circumnavigate until we run into resource scarcity.
The question now is can we outrun the fire of the bridges we've set alight behind us in time to reach the island of prosperity that is cost-effective asteroid mining.
>>80066194
>Continuing the thought (because it's fairly interesting and I'm genuinely curious to know if someone can provide a more positive outlook)
>Asteroid mining
After even that well of plenty becomes insufficient it's really doubtful at the moment whether humanity will be able to avoid a period of indefinite stagnation.
Our solar system's resources are limited, even after we start harvesting other planets and building space-stations for food production (much faster than terraforming).
Colony ships would serve to spread humanity further but the maximal cap remains unchanged.
There will simply be more pockets of limited potential of humanity.
Taking genetic manipulation and bionic upgrades to their limit could conceivably lead to a race of undying and incredibly durable creatures who can survive and thrive in any reasonable environment but without a way to connect individuals across the vastness of space it seems the limit of our reach is fairly low.
With no way to ensure a network of communication our civilisation is invariable doomed to regress into a digital world of our own design with a vast majority of the population living in a simulation of reality where godhood is perfectly achievable.
Come to think of it, it's a fairly decent model for resolving the Fermi paradox
>/sci/ out
>>80057133
Im guessing here, but I think the point is, that in order to create a new meaning one must first realise that any previous meaning of life was manmade and therefore worthless to the self. By releasing the thought that life has a meaning you open up space for a new, selfmade meaning.
In the analogy you presented you could perhaps replace the empty glass with one filled with coca cola. Person A wants water, but cannot do so because the glass is filled with cola. By realising the cola is actually meaningless and not what he wants at all he can undo the glass of the cola and proceed to fill it with his desires: water. If he does not realise that the cola is meaningless, he would be unable to fulfill his true desire of getting water. So the fact that life has no meaning does in fact matter, as it is the first step in being able to create your own meaning to life.
>>80057133
>than the fact that is empty is irrelevant.
If the glass isn't empty how are you suppose to put water in it?
If the glass is suppose to be a person, then if that glass was full of piss how would you then fill it with water? The answer: remove the piss. So then that is to say you can remove the "essence" of a person and replace it with something else. I.E, "Jon Doe" won't be "Jon Doe" after you remove the piss.
If the glass is empty, you add whatever you want to the glass, you're not stuck with piss, unless you yourself pissed in the glass, then that's your own fault for pissing in the glass when there's a perfectly good fridge right near by.
>>80066194
It wouldn't necessarily be slavery, more like an underclass society. They'd have all their needs met, be able to have jobs, do all the normie stuff, then that stuff would be used to feed the upper society, then they would intern feed the lower society in order to maintain the balance. But if that balance were to be broken, everything would indeed crumble. (feed doesn't really refer to literal food)
>>80073885
It could work. Even seems like the most probably state of stability we're heading towards.
So long as there's a way for the lower class to ascend, through learning, I can envision such a society to be quite idealic.
>>80046605
I didn't read the thread but Julias Evola's ride the tiger (which is pol required reading, though dense as fuck) has like a third of it devoted to exploring Nietzsche, nihilism and what happens to the men who both embrace, reject and move beyond the degeneracy of meaninglessness.
>>80046605
nihilists should just commit sudoku
