I'm going to start to go to church for the first time. What kind of Christian denomination should i convert to /pol/?
Eastern Orthodox, maybe Catholic but be careful with the new Pope. Eastern orthodox is best decision for now.
>2016 CE
>believing in sky wizards
>>78752649
GTFO atheistfags. I'm not asking for your opinion.
>>78752370
Mormonism. They are the only ones still devoted to the faith.
Catholics have a pro-choice fedora leader and protestants change with the political currents
>pick bible
>study verse by verse
>follow the teachings of our Lord
>prey every day and every night
Saved you money, familia.
>>78752370
What US state? Some denominations are more prevalent in certain areas.
t. Texan Baptist [cultural]
>>78752370
>I'm going to start to go to church for the first time
Why?
Try the Army, we're fun, I promise.
>>78753104
Illinois. Pls no bully.
>>78753111
I want to go to church and not the army. Sorry senpai. I bet the army is cool.
>>78752370
What's your motivation to join a church? Do you feel an empty void in your life you need to fill with mythology?
Muslim
I'd look for a conservative Methodist church, but that's just me.
>>78753561
>I want to go to church and not the army.
No, I meant the Salvation Army, where I go to church. We have brass bands. You'll like it. Unless you want communion or baptism.
And, still, why? Why do you want to do this?
>>78753561
>Illinois
Where in Illinois? Also, whatever you do, do not go to an Episcopalian church. They have pretty much abandoned Christ at this point
Southern Baptist
Eastern Orthodox and Catholic both follow a works salvation that is opposed to scripture
>>78752370
>What kind of Christian denomination should i convert to /pol/?
The correct one. Else you waste your time in varying ways.
>>78753024
Mormons follow scripture contrary to the Bible
>>78753031
The Bible is clear in its instruction to meet in the church weekly
>>78753024
+1
I started attending Mormon church this year. The religion is obviously fake but they're good people. It's also over 99% white. There are a ton of qts but parts of service are segregated by gender so it kinda sucks.
>>78754936
HEY LOOK ITS THE FAGGOT WHO POSTS THE SAME PICTURE IN EVERY SINGLE THREAD REEEEEEEE
>>78752370
Pentecostal here, it's definitely the least boring denomination. If you want to see something go down it's not a bad choice.
>>78752370
Reminder these are /pol/ heritage threads
>>78752370
>Christian denomination
Seek Jesus with all of your strength.
>>78756215
This. Only Christ/pol/ and Brit/pol/ endured through the a/pol/calypse
>not being a Buddhist
>>78755902
Where does it say that?
>>78752370
None, there is no religion in the NT. The OT was all about religion, and look how well that turned out for the Jews. It is faith, not chanting in Latin or eating magic crackers.
BECOME A NON DENOMINATIONAL FAG ITS EASY PEAZ
>>78756454
bible.org/seriespage/3-new-testament-church-its-meetings
:)
>>78756490
Luke 23:39-43New King James Version (NKJV)
39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ,[a] save Yourself and us.”
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord,[b] remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
What 'religion' was the guy who'd be with Jesus in Paradise? What Church did he go to? It's only Faith - start there.
>>78752370
Need to shut this down ASAP
GOD'S NOT REAL
CHRISTIANITY IS FALSE
YOU KNOW I'M RIGHT
THE BIBLE IS A TERRIBLE BOOK FILLED WITH SCIENTIFIC INACCURACIES
JESUS WAS A PRICK AND HE'S NOT COMING BACK
THERE IS NO HEAVEN OR HELL YOU'RE AN APE ON A ROCK IN SPACE
GET USED TO IT
>>78756993
Yeah, yeah - pinko. Go find a banana and a fedora, tell me how it works out for you.
>>78756993
I like how people on /pol/ think they're so enlightened in comparison to the people around them in their lives, yet they actually fucking believe in Christianity--a brand of religion that is absolutely true . . . according to this book written by man!
>>78756993
And yet the Chrich still provides a moral center and a community of good people. I'm agnostic at best but I still go to church and support it for the fringe benefits.
>>78757298
And not to mention it's not even a moral religion.
>If you don't convert you're burning in hell forever lol
>You can do anything you want! Anything! Just believe in my imaginary friend and you can get away with any bad deed and make it into heaven!
>>78756993
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DI9ImScQGAo
>>78757298
I'd rather align myself against the lib-commie-perverts and chance being misled by a 'man-made' faith than align myself with a man-made secular ideal which will certainly lead to worldly life of utter dog shit.
>>78752370
Southern Baptist is the least pozzed demomination
>>78757347
>And yet the Chrich still provides a moral center and a community of good people
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/24/nyregion/trial-begins-for-woman-charged-in-fatal-beating-of-half-brother-at-church.html?_r=0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases
Stop worshipping Jewish gods, you're almost as bad as Muslims.
>>78757473
It's not about conversion or die. What's the point of good and evil if one can't tell the two apart? Your saying you fear consequences, in other words?
>>78757765
He was God before there were Jews. Recall, the whole covenant thing was before Judaism existed.
>>78757815
>It's not about conversion or die
Christian checking in
One of the worst religions by far. It's like an automatic cuck machine where you are guilted 24/7 for doing absolutely nothing.
>>78757957
It's not. I can tell you not to smoke crack or you'll be a toothless cocksucker. You can then abstain from $20 rocks and keep your teeth, or you can work a corner and suck a glass pipe. If you choose the latter, it's not my fault for warning you.
>>78758165
That's Buddhism, my friend.
Ephesians 5:22-24
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
1 Timothy 2:9-15
Likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.
>>78758324
It's God's fault for being a douche.
'Convert or burn' is a better term
You need to stop this Christian nonsense my friend
Titus 2:3-5
Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.
How can Christians even compete?
>>78758541
Why shouldn't they?
>>78758672
Says the guy who believes in reincarnation, who fled Tibet when Mao's gang took over. Try harder.
>>78758672
Isn't that a paraphrased quote from Conan The Barbarian?
>>78752370
Lutheran
>>78758595
Well, let's look at it like this: If anything else, I'm still against the same people who are systematically fucking-up the world, I get a point for that. I will not side with those who'd emasculate the West, uphold degeneracy and simultaneously support the Muslims who will eventually kill them all for it. What have you got?
>>78758872
You believe in reincarnation too
t. Jesus brings ppl into the magical kingdom after death
>>78752649
>2016
>Atheists still not understanding allegory, or the real world effect of memes.
>>78752370
Catholicism.
Unitarian
>>78758672
That's fucking Crom you faggot
>>78753561
go to the Lord first
>>78759143
Actually, we defeat death and are given eternal bodies and live in the New Jerusalem. We don't comeback as mortal things over and over again.
>>78758595
Remember:
>No one would ever get into an airplane with someone who doesn't have the skills of flying. And no one would ever hop on the operating table with someone who didn't possess the skills of surgery. Yet in our age, many people jump into business partnerships, dating relationships, and even marriages without ever asking the fundamental question of virtue: Does this person have the virtue – the skills – necessary to live this relationship well? Does this person have patience, generosity, prudence, self-control, humility, discipline, etc.? These are just some of the many virtues we need to love others and live out our commitments to them.
If you're ever curious, I'd look over Christianity honestly and without bias. You won't regret it.
>>78759241
How come the Vatican doesn't give you Brazilians some of that gold back (which they originally stole from you) to help your economy? I recall something about rich men and camels going through the eye of a needle there.
>>78759117
I don't see the relevance of this analogy
>>78759350
That's reincarnation except it only happens once
>>78759440
> I'd look over Christianity honestly and without bias. You won't regret it.
I have. Your desert memes aren't as powerful as you'd like to believe
>>78759585
Because don't want to.
Not reincarnation, because it's not mortal flesh - sorry to nitpick.
>>78752370
All that's left of Christianity.
Anyone care to reconcile the idea of an omniscient God with the idea of human free will?
>>78759953
God knows what you will choose to do.
>>78755732
Southern Baptists are refugee lovers, so if you're a cuck they are perfect
If there is a God, he sure loves killing Christians!
>>78759443
Never heard about Vatican stealing something, the baroque churches here had gold ornaments in it but they stayed in Brazil. The Bible verses should be interpreted following the milenar tradition, I don't know about this verse but ofcourse rich people don't go to hell just because they are rich.
>>78759815
>Nitpicking on reincarnation
>>78753031
You don't think it's necessary to go to church?
>>78759953
What's so baffling about that? Please explain, and I'll reciprocate.
>>78752370
Catholicism is the only legitimate form of Christianity, everything else is heresy.
>>78758362
Buddhism is not a fucking religion.
Buddha did not attempt to monetize and control the state of affairs like the cow licks did in Europe
>>78759953
Allowing all things you do does not run up against the idea that you did them yourself.
>>78759953
When I was a child, my father could completely control me if he had chosen to.
>>78760331
You have a silly understanding of religion.
>>78756993
I hope you're just being satirical mate
>>78760018
>>78760224
If that is the case, how can it said that you have free will in any appreciable sense? If he knows that you will, at some particular time in the future, do Action X, then in order for him to be correct, you cannot do anything other than Action X when that time comes.
Free will necessarily implies having multiple options available. If your future is locked in, then you cannot have free will.
>>78760356
It's not about allowing, it's about whether he (or anyone, it could be aliens or a superintelligent computer) CAN know with 100% certainty what your future will be. If this is at all knowable, then we must necessarily be living in a deterministic universe, therefore we have no free will.
>>78760046
Well, let's be accurate. Reincarnation is actually a form of suffering in Oriental religions. Being reborn into a glorified immortal body is the end of suffering.
>>78760331
No, they just capitulated to some one of the most brutal regimes in human history. Try again.
Former fedora here:
Atheists on /pol/ should ask themselves why the same people who shit on religion and Christianity in particular are the ones pushing the rest of the degeneracy we like to complain about here.
>want to meet some traditionalist Catholics
>learn about SSPX
>there's a loca church called "Saint Pius X"
>oh great, they must be SSPX
>visit church
>it's super liberal, priest won't stfu about refugees and "tolerance" for gays
>praises Francis as the pope
apparently a Catholic Church called "St Pius X" is not necessarily SSPX/traditionalist Catholic
>>78752370
>there are people who actually cling to stone age misconceptions and worship jewish sky wizards in 2016
You're no different from the sandniggers and the kikes
>>78759953
God knows with 99.99999% of success what actions we will take and all possible event chains.
>>78753024
This.
Mormons are some of the least degenerate people as a whole. They're Christian, conservative, they do follow the Bible, and really help each other out.
I have a Mormon friend and listened to the missionary discussions to make him happy. It really made a lot of sense and it was cool how they tied everything back to the KJ bible and used the Book of Mormons to elaborate. I go with my friend to church every once in a while still to learn more and become less degenerate. I'd probably get baptised but the flesh is weak and women have boobs.
>>78760501
I think that's kind of where our language fails at describing how God works. Granted, He's fully aware of what we will do - but - we still had a choice, still made the decision ourselves. It was sin which created death and condemnation in the first place - which was still caused by human free will. Why God did this? Well, you'd have to ask Him. I'd guess it's because only an evil god would want to create pure automatons.
>>78760757
>Gif is a man who literally wants to go back to the Stone Age and worships Odin
top kek
The central idea of Christianity, that humans are inherently sinful and can only be saved/forgiven through God, makes no sense to me
So God creates a species from the ground up with complete control over their attributes and characteristics
Then he labels a bunch of the attributes and desires that he imbued with as "sinful" and tells us we're bad and need to be forgiven for having them
If he's omnipotent, he could just as easily have created a race of men with no desire to sin and done away with the whole problem before it started.
The only answer I've ever heard for this is that being saved by God is only meaningful if you do it of your own free will. But God could just as easily have created humans who have the free will to sin, but no desire to.
It's such an illogical and forced metaphysics that if I read it in a fantasy novel I would be like "this author sucks".
>>78760501
You have multiple options and can choose which to do at your own discretion, and you choose to do X, and God knew that you'd choose X. Similarly, if you chose to do Y, God knew that you'd choose Y.
>>78759953
Human nature doesn't allow free will
>>78756822
see this http://www.fisheaters.com/challenge.html
>>78752649
>CE
Glad the education system brain washed you like all the lefties
>>78759953
God the Father exists beyond time itself.
We don't.
t. St. Augustine
>>78760956
cuz ur not seeing your own sin as a real thing
so you just think its some made up concept
and its hard to admit that ur a evil person in reality
its not inherent you could be so righteous you just go to heaven straight away like that one guy in genesis
Genesis 5:24
Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
>>78760956
He created us perfect but with free will, and free will means we can take actions against God himself if we wish, so thats what happened with Eve and Adam. After that our nature became corrupt because we moved away from God.
>>78760501
Canuck, this is very easy.
GOD knows EVERYTHING you could possibly do.
He also knows EVERYTHING that could possibly result from you doing that.
This is where the multiverse theory comes from.
There is only one main universe, and that is the one where the free choices of humans happen. The rest are just how God observes other possibilities.
I mean, it's fairly simple. God just respects our free will. He knows where it'll take us, but he respects that we make choices and he doesn't change these choices.
>>78761136
Sorry dude, there was only one intermediary between man and God, and he doesn't live in Rome.
>>78756693
>New testament
>>78760757
Please fuck off. These arguments are shitty.
Jesus Christ died on the cross. He didn't exploit His message for Himself, as He was perfect and free from sin.
He was the Son of God. He was God.
Also -
The move of tech towards transhumanism, sentient AI, and mandatory microchips is clearly foretold in the Book of Revelation.
Catholic or Orthodox is fine. Everything else is a meme denomination.
>>78760956
Yes, we were free from sin in the beginning.
Then, due to our free will, we rebelled and learned of sin, of good and evil, and became ashamed of earthly, mortal things. And we became imperfect -
So we were cast out of the immortal garden, of the spiritual realm, of the ability to walk among God, as we were now imperfect, we were now dirty, due to this knowledge.
But through Jesus Christ, the Son, through God - as He WAS God - we are able to be saved.
>>78760783
Then he is not omniscient, just very well informed. This solution does, however, allow free will to exist.
>>78760892
You didn't answer anything, you just restated the contradition. If I ask how a square circle can possibly exist, and you tell me that it just does, then that's not very helpful.
>>78760969
That's not omniscience. You agree that we live, according to all knowledge, in linear time? That is to say, that time goes forward for us, and what we do cannot be undone. So at any given point in time, we can only ever do one discrete action (or exist in one specific state). If you're trying to decide whether to bite into an apple or a banana exactly 10 minutes from now, then you can certainly deliberate up to that point, but when 10 minutes rolls around, you can only bite into one of those fruits. Either he knows which one of the fruits you will bite into at that time, or he does not. Knowing that you're considering eating one of those fruits, and subsequently knowing that you will have to bite into one of them when you've decided, is not omniscience.
>>78761422
Therefore God is not omniscient, he is just aware of all possibilities without knowing exactly which one you will take. This allows for free will, but raises the question of why God is so well-informed and yet remains unable to see humans' futures.
>>78761470
Russia, those nice old men in funny black dresses are gonna get you people in a whole lot of trouble, one day...
http://trackingbibleprophecy.com/gog_magog.php
>>78761463
cool ignoring Matthew 16 there bub.
>>78752591
This.
With the Catholic Church, just don't follow what the Pope says, as he's considered as a heretic by some of the Catholics already. The German Pope was much better, but not as popular just because he's German--Krautophobia, I guess.
Don't know much about Eastern Orthodox, but it's safe to say not to follow the head of their church either.
Protestants are heretics. Don't.
>>78761687
If we did not know of good and evil before "rebelling", how could we (that is to say, two of our extremely distant ancestors) be blamed for doing so?
>>78761714
Time is a fat pussy
>>78761390
Yeah, "if we wish". There's a limited spectrum of motivations that people have and actions that people take. For example nearly 100% of people at some point are tempted to have premarital sex or lie or disrespect authority or whatever. Meanwhile roughly 0% of people are tempted to french kiss a housecat or cover their entire bodies with chewed bubblegum. We have the FREE WILL and the ABILITY to do those things, we just don't want to.
It follows that if nearly 100% of people at some point have a desire to do something, then that DESIRE ITSELF was put in us by God. Not just the free will to sin, but the DESIRE to sin.
I can't think of any way to avoid the conclusion that God made a conscious decision to make beings that want to do things that he doesn't want them to do. which is an absurd course of action
>>78761714
Then be more precise - what are you trying to ask? Are you asking if God's existence nullifies human free will, or what?
>>78752649
wtf I'm an atheist now
>>78760501
This largely depends on how God is understood.
>What is called Theistic Personalism, which is a modern mainstream view in which God is a powerful person in an anthropomorphic sense.
>Classical Theism, which is the longstanding pre-modern mainstream view of God as not a person or being but the willful sustaining ground of reality at all moments in time.
The Apostolic Faiths (Catholic, Orthodox, Copt) supporting Classical Theism.
The personalist view would mean that either things need to happen deterministically over time or God's knowledge is changing with the times.
The classical view would mean that all states in all points of time are created BY God (the doctrine of Divine Conservation) and thus need not be coerced to change one stage in time to another. The will can be allowed existence without necessarily enforcing it while also know precisely what it does.
>>78761714
I told you, he CAN see human's futures.
He can see ALL possible futures of EVERYONE.
What part of anything I said implies he can't?
Your argument revolves around this concept of one 'universe.' In reality, there are infinite. They are all, however, just the vision of God, a God in an eternity, a God that doesn't live within the constraints of time.
Our universe is the free will universe. It is where the souls dwell and our actions are made by us. God knows the other actions we could make and He also knows where our current actions will take us.
What, do you epxect him to knock everyone onto the right path, because He knows where its going?
>>78758981
Pfft no, it's paraphrased from Gandhi
>>78761714
There wouldn't be free will if our actions were predetermined. And with free will there is no way to predict our actions by 100%.
>>78761778
So, the Pope was God in the flesh, who took the sins of the world on the cross, was killed and risen three days later? Please explain.
>>78761843
We are not blamed, it is just the cause of our situation.
There is a reason we can be saved and there is a reason God loves us.
We were free of sin. The only knowledge of sin we knew of was, well, the one rule God had in place. And we broke it, after having been lied to. It shows that sin leads to sin. The first sin was kicked off by a sin itself, a sin - a lie - uttered by satan as the serpeant.
Mormon, only moral choice left.
>>78756993
>>78761831
Catholics must pray to this pope alot and remind that we had worse popes.
>>78762113
No.
They had polygamy (multiple wives).
Obvious cult set up for personal gain. Like islam-lite without the violence.
>>78761721
No.
>>78761831
>Protestants are heretics. Don't.
How so?
>>78762256
Because protestants are jewish jerks.
"If I am rich - I do it right".
>>78762067
I'm not even going to dignify that with a response.
The Protestant position is self-refuting. Without a magisterium (vested in the consecrated Bishops, who have an unbroken line from Christ, who consecrated the Apostles Himself), everyone's own personal interpretation of scripture and divine will is correct. This leads one to conclude that the Protestant God is schizophrenic, as virtually everyone has their own silly interpretations.
Indeed, Christ is a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek, but an order of priests implies that there are others beyond Him. Yes, Christ is the Highest Priest, but to be a Highest Priest means there must be lesser priests.
As for the Bishop of Rome, his role is akin to that of Regent. Christ alone is King, but as He is currently not actively ruling over us, His appointed deputy exercises power on His behalf. In Matthew 16, Christ clearly appoints Peter to be that deputy.
>>78755732why are Jehovah's witnesses so uncucked?
>>78761714
>So at any given point in time, we can only ever do one discrete action (or exist in one specific state).
No, we can do whatever is possible for us to do, in accordance to our free will.
>Either he knows which one of the fruits you will bite into at that time, or he does not.
And I argue that He does know, under the grounds that He is omniscient.
>Knowing that you're considering eating one of those fruits, and subsequently knowing that you will have to bite into one of them when you've decided, is not omniscience.
You don't _have_ to eat one one of the fruits, you choose to eat one. And even then, even if you had to eat one of the fruits, God knowing which you chose or will choose is evidence of omniscience.
>>78762695
>can't even pronounce the Tetragrammaton correctly
>literally do nothing besides stand on street corners handing out pamphlets.
>has never controlled actual territory of their own.
lol
>>78761899
I am asking how you reconcile God's omniscience (that is, specifically the ability to know your future) with the idea of free will. Because the two are contradictory.
>>78761909
>The will can be allowed existence without necessarily enforcing it while also know precisely what it does
How so? If god knows all points in time, it doesn't matter if he/it coerced them to change or not, the fact that those points are knowable with 100% certainty means the universe is deterministic.
>>78761910
>God knows the other actions we could make and He also knows where our current actions will take us
It doesn't matter how many universes you throw at the problem. We are not talking about other possible universes, we are talking about the one we're in at the moment, and the one we will be in in the future. If god knows where our current actions will take us, and he knows where our future actions will take us, then we can create a causal chain that renders free will entirely meaningless.
>>78761981
I agree. You, at least, seem to understand the problem I'm talking about. Either free will goes (which would undo the ethical side of the religion, since there can be no moral agency without free will), or absolute omniscience goes.
>>78762793
>No, we can do whatever is possible for us to do
Certainly, but we can only do one discrete possibility at a given time. The example was simplified for a reason. If we imagine the only options being to eat the apple or banana at a specific point in time (say, at 12:01pm tomorrow), then of all possible options (2 of them), we can only do one. We can eat the other fruit before, or after, but at that exact moment, only one action is possible.
>You don't _have_ to eat one one of the fruits, you choose to eat one
If the prediction is made that you will eat the apple, and the prediction is 100% accurate because god knows everything and is always right, then you HAVE to eat the apple whether you know of the prediction or not.
>>78762662
>1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
I thought the point of christ was that we all have the same connection that the priests were given?
>>78752370
Catholicism because it's the true church.
None of them because Jewsus is a myth and grow a fucking pair of goddamn balls you faggot
>>78752649
>Anno Domini 2016
>Thinking we believe in a sky wizard and not in the omnipotent God unbound by the physical world unlike some creature inside the Earth's atmosphere
>>78753024
>LDS Church
>"Christianity"
My personal opinion is Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy. Yes the Pope sucks now, but that will change, and the next Pope will probably be the most conservative in recent history.
>>78760327
Fellow based Catholic.
>>78752370
Unitarian Monotheist
>>78752649
I am #AthiestAtomBomb now
>>78757298
>implying we think the Bible was not written by man
God and His church are documented in the bible, not based off the bible
>>78752370
>>78761867
He made us with the potential to rebel against him, but I don't think he created us to do so. The initial desire for sin was made by satan. And satan rebelled because of envy. Why did angels were made with the potential envy? dunno lol
>>78759143
The spritual realm and the physical are different.
Reincarnation is solely in the physical realm. Heaven is not
>>78763237
English is cursed with only one word meaning "Priest". You'll notice that 1 Peter 2:9 uses "hierateuma" not "presbyteros"
What Catholics and Orthodox call Priests is rendered as "presbyteros" in scripture.
>>78752370
reminder
>corinthians 4:4
>satan is the god of this world
we must ascend from the earth, the only way is through the teachings of jesus christ and his holy apostles.
also fuck the pope, this new ones the false prophet
>>78752370
Presbyterian or Reformed Baptist. Every race realist should believe in predestination.
I'm not a Calvinist. We are granted free will. God just knows what our free choices will lead us to.
>>78761714
>>78763998
Reformed theology is the ultimate red pill of Christianity.
Are you a Japanese Catholic, by any chance?
>>78762117
>>78763213
>Certainly, but we can only do one discrete possibility at a given time.
Why so? We have free will, we can do whichever possibility we so desire to do, God just knows which we'll do. Allow me to give an illustration.
My nephew loves chicken and hates vegetables, and also loves lego. If I put a plate of veggies, a plate of chicken, and a box of lego on the table, I know (if I were omniscient) which he'll choose, if he chooses any at all (he could be distracted by his sister and play with a toy gun, for example). I'm not breeching his free will, I just (if I were omniscient) know what he will (or won't) do in that scenario, with such variables taken into account.
When it comes to free-will and omniscience, God does not work under a timetable or schedule - He knows what we choose to do and when we will do it. Him knowing such things does not break our free will, because it wasn't prophecied or pre-ordained, it's just that He knows what will occur.
It seems we have a difference of definition when it comes to free will. I'm operating under a libertarian definition, and it seems you're arguing against a compatibilist definition. I don't think we'll come to a conclusion in this matter, sorry. I'm arguing for Granny Smith apples and you're arguing against Fuji apples.
>>78764127
>Predestination
>No real presence in Eucharist
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>78752370
>going to church
Why not skip the middle man?
>>78764287
he only says that because he lets his religious beliefs play second fiddle to his racial ideas.
>>78764287
>God favored some races with more beauty, intelligence, creativity
>can't into predestination?
>Eucharist
ehh, even Luther got that wrong
>>78764394
Nah, but once you realize God does play favorites, it's not hard to see through the Marxist lie of equality.
>>78752370
The most important thing you could ever do is read this book.
https://www.thetrumpet.com/literature/730/mystery-of-the-ages
It will show you the true purpose of Christianity, which has been corrupted by history, and I promise that after reading, Christianity will make sense to you.
It tells us WHY obedience to God is so important, and why you must behave in a manner that is kind, virtuous, gentle, patient, understanding, humble, diligent, chaste, and abstinent.
For the TL:DRs, I'll give you a brief overview.
God created man because he wants to recreate himself. We are his children. We are only given a sliver of his intellectual power. God is infinitely powerful, and infinitely intelligent. He is also benevolent, loving, and has FREE WILL. The supreme creative act of a supreme creative being is to re-create himself in ALL respects, is it not?
The catch is, you can't create something that is both benevolent and has free will. By forcing it to be benevolent, it no longer has free will. So God puts you through a test where you CHOOSE to obey him, because you AGREE with his laws of LOVE and OBEDIENCE. The law of GIVING. If everyone considered the needs of others before their own, wouldn't everyone be provided for? It would be a utopia! There is no corruption of man allowed in this "version of communism", because an all-powerful, benevolent and loving creator God sits at the top, ensuring its function.
So God wants to make you a God being, just like himself, with all his powers and knowledge, and free will, reaping the benefit of his glorious utopia, but to get that reward you must UPHOLD HIS LAWS, because if not, you will be incredibly dangerous. Lucifer was the most perfect thing God ever created, and he rebelled because he had free will. God wants to ensure this never happens again. That is why some of the ten commandments are about OBEDIENCE.
>>78764576
God does not play favorites: we are all equally deserving of death. St. Paul makes that clear repeatedly in Romans.
>>78764682
Who are you? I was raised in World Wide Church of God. My family donated millions to the college campus in Pasadena.
>>78752370
All those telling you a denomination instead of asking you to truly follow Christ are false.
Christianity SHOULD BE about personal discipleship. The religious affiliation part of it is purely cultural/circumstantial.
I'm ex-episcopal and currently go to Southern Baptist. But it wouldn't matter WHERE I go as LONG AS THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS WITH ME.
Praise be to God.
>>78764338
worship with music and hear a message maybe learn a few things
and its the sabbath to remember it
church isnt a bad thing if its non corrupt
and you get free food
>>78764682
CON'T
Think, if you were to create billions of all-powerful beings with free will, wouldn't you want to make sure they OBEY you? This is why some of the ten commandments/laws of God are so authoritative. One thing to mention at this point: God knows your intentions. For example, If you "never take his name in vain" out loud but hold hate in your heart for him, cursing him in your heart—he knows. He can hear your thoughts. He knows your heart. You can't hide your intentions from God. If you think you can, you will surely die.
(QUICK SIDE NOTE: A common question is "why would a benevolent God send his children to hell?", and this is a corruption of the gospel! When Christ returns (the second coming), everyone who EVER DIED will come back to life and have a second chance to be converted during the 1000 year reign of Christ. At the end of that 1000 years, there will be a FINAL JUDGEMENT where you can either obey God's laws, or be put to death. You can CHOOSE eternal life or non-existence, via compliance or rebellion. You always have your free will. Free will is the ultimate gift from God. It is the prize jewel that only you possess.)
After the 1000 year reign of Christ, during which the rest of mankind is converted, the Earth will also be made beautiful again by God, mankind, and the "firstfruits". Firstfruits are those who pass the Earth test (our lives as know them now). They will be made God beings at the time of Christ's second coming, and will help to convert the rest of mankind and beautify the Earth.
AFTER this 1000 year reign, all those who refuse to obey God will be put to death, and the rest will be made God beings. God and his family (the God Family) will then go and populate the universe. Bringing life to all the planets of the universe and creating new things forever and ever with Earth as the headquarters. That is God's plan! To create a family with which he can beautify the universe that he created!
What are we going to do about Protestantism?
>>78764682
Are you in his church of an off shoot? After World Wide split up my parents took us to United Church of God.
Now there is COGWA and a thousand other smaller ones.
>>78764759
Yes, but from before the foundation of the world, God had specific individuals in mind whom He would save. Predestination. The Gospel is for those "with ears to hear." Nobody knows who they are, other than God. That's why the Gospel is to be proclaimed to all men, but only those whom God has elected can respond.
http://www.swordwalk.com/17-verses-that-support-predestination-election/
Jehovah's Witness, if you want to do it right.
>>78764918
>>78764338
>>78764928
Did the religion of the Old Testament have a sense of sacred time, sacred space, and sacred objects? Is there anything in the New Testament that indicates the concept of consecrated things/places/times has changed?
All Christians must band together, cast aside our differences, breed like rabbits, and violently crush communism and islam.
>>78752370
I was thinking the same OP, I definitely think Orthodox looks the best, the Eastern Orthodox. Don't know what to expect if I go to church though and I wouldn't know what the fuck I'm doing.
>>78764682
>>78764971
CON'T
The only way to salvation (eternal life and infinite power) is to accept that Jesus Christ died for your sins, and that after you do that...you SIN NO MORE! You can't "accept christ" and keep sinning. This isn't a free gift. It's bought with your compliance to the law.
So, to OBEY God, you MUST do the following:
1.) Put no other gods before him. (Satan, Allah, Kek, Ba'al, Osiris...etc. Any God that is not the Christian God who is the Father of Jesus Christ will bring you death).
2.) You shall not make idols. (Men and Women can be made idols. Do you worship any movie stars? Bands? If you "can't live without porn", are you not making an idol of it? Think!)
3.) You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. (If you can't do something so simple as not make a curse word out of his name, how can you be trusted with INFINITE POWER?)
continued
>>78764982
Wash and kiss their feet :^)
>>78753024
This 100%
Getting baptised in LDS was the best decision I've ever made
>>78764971
>>78764682
Please answer me. I was raised in all of this. Never seen it posted on here before.
>>78765083
then why not only create those persons? If He preordains some to eternal life, He also preordains some to eternal hellfire.
But we also know from John 3 that He did not come to send any to hell, but to save all that believe.
>>78765240
>>78764971
>>78764682
6.) You shall not Murder. (This seems obvious, but to many, it is not. YOU SHALL NOT MURDER. Christ was a Martyr. He was destroyed by the corrupt in a brutal and horrible way, and did he fight back? Did he murder them? Did he "play God" with their lives? No! If they come to kill you for Christ worship, you must try reason, compassion, kindness, and if that does not work then you let them kill you. The only way to follow Christ is by choosing not to sin. If murder is a sin, you MUST NOT MURDER, EVER.
7.) You shall not Steal. (This is more complicated than you may think. If you know you are getting something by not paying its price, are you not stealing? The old "pirating games is not stealing" argument is a sin. You are stealing. There is a price for that item and you've found a way to "logically" argue that it is "technically not stealing", which is Pharisiacal behavior. God is smarter than you, don't try and outwit him.
8.) You shall not commit adultery. (Again, more complex than you think. You can commit adultery in the heart, as Jesus said. If you are using a woman you profess to love for sex but are thinking of another, is that not adultery? An important rule to remember is that you cannot hide your heart from God.
9.) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (Don't lie. God does not lie. There are no "white lies", that is Pharisiacal thinking. If you cannot tell the whole truth, reveal it in stages. Jesus spoke in parables. He told them the whole truth in a way that seemed incomplete at the time, but was not deceitful or deceptive. He wanted them to figure it out, because in the figuring, they become wise.
10.) You shall not covet. ("I wish I had his hair", "...his talent", "...his authority", "...his power", "...his women", "...his accolades", "...his respect"....etc. Do not covet. Work with what you have. We are all a fit in the divine tapestry. Focus on what you can give and not what you wish you had.
>>78764971
where in the Bible is the 1000 year thing mentioned? Everything sounds pretty good but the last part was confusing./
>>78765442
Because God will be glorified in the salvation of the elect AND the destruction of the wicked. His Mercy AND Justice on full display. In order to display the fullness of His attributes.
>>78765567
He will save all who believe. Only the elect believe.
>>78765306
I am just a man from Massachusetts. A /pol/ack for years. Always searching for the truth, which has taken many forms in my life, at times.
But I've been feeling that something is coming for a few years now, and in my searching I came across this Gospel, which I believe to be the Truth. Now I've made it my mission to spread it, because there is precious little time, and I love all my brothers here at 4chan, truly.
God bless you, friend!
>>78752370
>What kind of Christian denomination should i convert to /pol/?
Gnostic.
>>78765162
I don't understand what you're asking.
Sacred time? You mean Sabbath?
Sacred Space? Like Cathedrals and places of worship?
Sacred objects? Careful here, getting in idol territory.
Maybe you are asking that since technology/culture/lifestyles have changed, do Christians change within those time?
I would say no.
Conduct yourself with holiness as you are always in the presence of God, regardless of "time" "space" and nearby "objects."
If you have a more detailed specific question let me know.
>>78752370
Catholic, but don't follow this Francis' teachings, adhere to those taught by Pope John Paul II. Eastern Orthodox is a close second.
>>78765816
Do not be led by cultural norms, be led by the Spirit.
>>78765668
>building a clock capable of suffering just to make it suffer displays mercy and justice
>>78765686
Do you go to the church currently? My roommate is a childhood friend who still attends services. He went earlier today even.
>>78752370
Orthodox is the only answer.
>Worshipping a lying Semitic Jew God.
Your ancestors frown upon you.
>>78765757
the Arc of the Covenant was a sacred object, and nobody thought it was idolatry. Jesus chased the money changers out of the Temple precisely because it was a sacred space with sacred objects housed within.
The religion started by Christ did not destroy the one that came before: it added to it. To say that you can be Christian all by your lonesome when there are Churches nearby is absurd. You can't forgo Church attendance unless you're a hermit.
I'm wondering if Anglican is best for an Englishman like me?
>>78762695
They don't believe in politics. Just pray to Jehovah and his Son and watch the world burn while Jesus reclaims his kingdom and rebuilds it into a new Eden.
>>78753024
This makes me happy. /pol/ is one big family of Mormon nazis
>>78765240
>>78764971
>>78764682
>>78765454
CONT
There. These laws are the laws of all time and forever. They will be in effect during the 1000 year reign and after that for eternity. They are there to ensure peace among men. But are they the only laws? NO!
Fornication before marriage, various food laws (shellfish, pork...too many to list), homosexuality, wrath, lust, gluttony, envy, pride, sloth, and greed are all sins. Some sins might make no sense to Man, because he LACKS INFORMATION. But by following God, we signal to him that we trust his judgment, which is a strong way of VALIDATING ONE'S FAITH. THESE ARE NOT JUST JEWISH OR MUSLIM LAWS! THEY APPLY TO CHRISTIANS! LOOK IT UP!
Perhaps after the second coming, and Lucifer is put away during the 1000 year reign, these laws will be lifted. Animal sacrifices were lifted after Christ died. I cannot know for sure. But what is certain is that the TEN COMMANDMENTS are in effect FOR ALL ETERNITY. So get those under your belt, and then work on the rest. If God could endure a horrible mortal death for your salvation, and you won't give up Lobster, what does that say about you? Does it say you deserve infinite power and knowledge? I reckon it says you still need to exert your self-will over God, even if it's small. Remember, we're talking infinite wisdom and power. It cannot be given to those who "think they know best". You don't. Trust God. You are as intelligent compared to him as a hamster is to us. Don't trust everything that science tells you. They've only discovered part of the picture. God is WAY ahead of them, and takes them all for fools.
Read Mystery of the Ages. There is way more in it than I can go into here. It talks of where the true Jews are (hint: they're not in modern israel), racemixing, the history of the angels, the nature of "modern jews" and why they behave as they do, and more.
Do you value Truth? Do you wish to know more? Read.
>>78765926
>not realizing that you are nothing more than a created being OWNED by an All-powerful, Just Creator
God's number-one priority is maximizing His own glory. That glory cannot be recognized unless beings are created who are capable to recognize it. A being who has never fallen and been redeemed can never comprehend mercy, and a being who is never punished cannot comprehend true justice. The angels will never know what redemption feels like. THIS is the purpose of humanity.
>>78766032
>your ancestor's face when they saw Christians conquer the entire Roman Empire when the pagan armies outnumbered them 3 to 1.
>>78766133
High Church Anglicanism, sure. Avoid the low church like the plague though.
>>78765967
Christ is the only answer.
i've seen the Spirit work in Catholics, Orthodox, Baptists, Pentecostals, Adventists, Anglicans, etc.
Paul Washer is a preacher I trust.
http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Paul%5EWasher
>>78766297
I love that man. He may be the greatest evangelist alive today.
Catholic here, got a problem, finding it hard to stick with organized Christianity and church-going.
Been brushing up on Church history and I really don't know how to feel about the absolute babarity of the popes. I mean some of the history you wonder if the popes had any belief system at all to temper their conscience. I mean the disrespect towards God was flagrant.
Yes, it would be easier to go okay that was another time. But the new Pope, intially I felt he was correct to focus more on the poor than poltics, is clearly revealing himself as a globalist nwo shill.
Ok the Church-all Churchs are run by men, and men are fallen beings.
Additionally if you believe in Christian theism, then demons and objective evil are probably a part of your worldview.
So I can't but help think the Church and perhaps most Churches are warped and tainted, by not only irrational human behavior but supernatural evil.
How can you trust the Church or any church at all?
>>78766275
we're made in His image. Why would He create beings in His image just to make them suffer?
>>78755482
yawn. cry me more tears, hypocrite
Anglican and proud
>>78765240
i like everything youre saying its fascinating to me except for when you said it isnt a free gift when the bible says that it is a free gift
being under a bondage and being scared of god because you arent doing good enough isnt what god wants either
we are pardoned from that
you can keep sinning but it will just have consequences because it will ruin your life and others lives sinning is negative and chastised
i was in a 2 year torment when i first became christian thinking i was going to hell every second because i thought i could lose my salvation for being a bad christian
>>78766405
looks like you need an injection of Fish Eaters, stat! http://www.fisheaters.com/challenge.html
>>78766441
>see the life of Jesus Christ
Do you think the servants to be greater than the master? Suffering is not above God Himself, why would he exempt His image bearers from it? Elect and unelect suffer, for the unelect it carries over. But they deserve it (we all do).
>1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice that you share in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed at the revelation of His glory.
>>78752370
breh join the Sikh religion, you get to carry a ceremonial dagger for killing the Muslim cockroaches.
>>78752370
Join the Sikh religion, you get to carry a ceremonial dagger for killing the Muslim cockroaches.
>>78765048
I found everything I've come to through the https://www.thetrumpet.com/
It is the official site of the paper of the Philadelphia Church of God.
I suggest you make a free account there. They have all of Armstrong's literature online for free. Their book Malachi's Message talks in depth of how and why they split off from the World Church of God once it was taken over by Stephan Tkach, who changed their message and name.
https://www.thetrumpet.com/literature/994/malachis-message
>>78766289
How do I know the difference?
>>78757347
this senpai
>>78752370
Lutheran obviously. It's te only denomination, that holds true to the bible
>>78766743
1) Christ is begotten, not made. We are made.
2) If we are not free, how is allowing made beings to suffer eternally just? The only way that Hell can be just is if and only if the decision to turn against God is freely made.
>>78766945
One looks like Catholicism (high church), the other looks like a church-themed community centre with a rainbow flag (low church)
>>78761491
Filthy heretic.
>>78766785
cool, sign me up
>>78767090
>Christ is God
>Christ suffered
>God suffered
>God's image bearers (humans) should be expected to suffer
Hell is justified because people sin. God is not obligated to save anyone. If Christ never came, and salvation was not offered, God would be just to through every human being into hell. That's how serious sin is desu.
Assemblies of God to troll other Christians
>>78766488
You are incorrect. Please make an account and read the book. It does a way better job than I could do, as I am still a babe in all this. I was not a man of God until only recently, so I don't have the scripture off-hand. The book is filled with references to scripture, and NO INTERPRETATIONS. Interpretations are what muddy the word of God. They just quote what God says and help clarify it.
The gift you're referring to is free in the sense that before Jesus died, no one was granted eternal life. If you sinned, you failed.
Then Jesus came along and lived a sinless life, but still died. As adam sinned and doomed mankind, Jesus did not sin and saved mankind. Therefore, once you accept that Jesus died for your sins you are vowing to walk in his way. You get a free absolving of all past sins. You don't get to keep sinning.
If you keep sinning, you will be resurrected (along with all those who died before Jesus, and all those that died after but did not walk with him) and taught why there are no justifications for your sins during the thousand year reign.
>>78767198
tend to find these threads stupid so wanted to mess with ppl but have to say I agree with you. Peace be with you Southern Hemisphere bro
>>78766488
I have a friend who's daughter converted in 2011(she was in her 30's). She had bouts with depression, suicide, and had issues with her boyfriend.
Last monday she hung herself and the funeral was last friday. Her Lutheran pastor told us about her faith and devotion and how what happened to her in the last moments of her life do not change the grace of God that Christ has given to her.
For those who are truly Christ's, they cannot be lost. Nothing on this earth will separate God and His Children.
>>78760331
I'll tell millions of asians the bad news
>>78767506
You too m8, have a good one
>>78767380
God's choice to suffer is God's alone.
If you're correct, Adam had no choice but to eat the fruit, hence dooming us all. Where is the locus of moral responsibility in a world where there is no free will?
By creating a world in which people sin, but people also have no choice of whether or not they sin, you're saying that God is responsible for the sin of not just Adam, but of all mankind. Such a position is clearly beyond heretical, but it is the logical consequence of the notion of predestination.
>>78760783
Shroedingers cat.
There exist two universes, one where I chose not to do something, and one where I chose to.
Our Lord exists outside of the confines of time and space, ominescient of any and all outcomes, regardless of which I choose.
>>78767777
Ayy check 'em
(Fully agree with your post, btw)
>>78761491
10 shekels have been deposited into your account
>>78767422
no if you are born again you get to be with god forever no matter what
thats what the bible says
not only a certain portion of believers , all believers
you have past "the test" already once you believe in Jesus...
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
>>78767777
You are lying if you say you've never sinned by your own choice. God is not the author of evil. Satan is God's devil, and is subject to God's Sovereign will, ultimately. I didn't say there isn't a tension between free will and predestination. People choose to sin each individual sin, but they are also slaves to a sinful nature unless they are redeemed by Jesus Christ.
>>78768148
>own choice
You just conceded that Free Will exists, and therefore completely negated "Reformed" theology.
Also you didn't check my Holy Quads.
>>78752370
Do you guys think baptism is a meme? My four kids are but I know a few sects think it's a dumb practice. I'm a Christian but it's more of a lifestyle and less of a community thing. I usually just do self reflection when I pray and kinda hope if God exists, he can help guide the hand of faith in my favor. Dunno what kind of Christian that makes me, but meh.
>>78768283
I said there is a tension. You believe in the Trinity, right? Can you honestly say that concept is without logical tension? Some theological truths are beyond our finite minds in this world. That doesn't negate the biblical evidence for predestination.
What kind of hell on earth would life be if people couldn't make choices?
Also
>being that superstitous when discussing high theology
They were pretty impressive though.
>>78768463
Going to church and baptizing your kids doesn't make you a Christian any more than moving into the garage would make you a car.
Christianity is predicated on genuine faith in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ of Nazareth as revealed in God's Holy Scripture.
It's an all or nothing proposition senpai.
>>78768483
>having to explain why free will only exists when it's convenient for me is beyond all human understanding so therefore I'm right
come on bruh, either we're free, or we're not. Can't have it both ways.
>>78752370
Methodist is good if you are a chill Christian.
>>78768283
I agree. Everyone should band together to desteoy Calvinism. Barth and Plantinga Reformed are still ok though
>>78764212
>I'm not breeching his free will, I just (if I were omniscient) know what he will (or won't) do in that scenario
>I'm operating under a libertarian definition
How are you operating under the libertarian definition when the libertarian one is specifically incompatibilist (which is precisely my position)? In your example, the fact that you know with full certainty what he will do means that his free will is merely an illusion. Even though he believes he has multiple options before him, he is already locked into one (ie. the one that you know he will end up doing). Now apply this to every nanosecond of his life, and try to argue that he has any free will in any useful definition of the term.
>>78767508
ya that i agree as well if she was a true believer dying isnt so bad
ive thought about suicide before its obviously a sin to harm your own body in any way
god would not be happy with that at the very least... id rather just wait a short time
life isnt that long and the rapture might happen soon
>>78768659
>trying to settle a theological debate that's raged for centuries on a Japanese image board at 1 am.
Either accept that God is omnipotent and could save everyone if He wanted to, or negate a fundamental attribute of God and be proclaimed a heretic.
>>78763505
I don't give a fuck about that thing am I an Atheist now?
>>78759953
Think of this:
If I have an ant in front of me, crawling around, does the ant have free will? Sure. I don't know which way it's going to go. It is choosing, by instinct, what to do.
If I place my hands around it, fencing it in, with only a sliver of space for it to get out, I may have changed its reality, but I didn't strip it of free will.
Let's say it stops moving after I fence it. What I want is for it to go through that sliver of space, and out of my hands, into freedom. So I start raining spit bombs on it to move it closer to the sliver. Does the ant still have free will? Is it still choosing which way to go, based on instinct? Sure.
And at any point, does this ant understand what is happening to it? Does the ant understand that there is a win/lose state? Does the ant understand that if it goes through the sliver, I'll let it free, but if it does not, i'll eventually kill it? Of course not, it's an ant. It's just responding, making choices, based on instinct. It has no way of perceiving what I'm doing to it, or even how I'm making it do what I want.
Now pretend the ant is a man, and the hands are the hands of God. The sliver is salvation and eternal life. God WANTS you to go through the sliver, but he can't make you. He can punish you if you go away from the sliver (sinning) or reward you for getting close. But what if he rewards you enough that you become content and stop moving towards the sliver? Maybe he starts punishing you to get you to keep moving that way, but now you're scared so you run back the other way. You're like the ant. You have no idea by what means God is testing you, but you're always being tested. You always have to choose, based on intellect AND instinct, what is right.
And If you do, you win.
>>78768777
If that anon is Reformed, that means that God must put that choice made there in the first place to be part of his plan. Tim Keller, agrees. So it's not even foreknowledge anymore but akin to a deity setting up the chain of causality such that what he planned prior will come to pass. No libertarian free will here. Compatabilism would simply be a buzzword
>>78768932
He could. He also stated that those who *choose* to turn away from Him get what they deserve. Emphasis on the word choose.
>>78769175
Exactly, so it's not like He's standing in heaven hoping and wishing little Johnny makes the choice to "ask Jesus into his heart."
>John 6:37
All that the *Father gives Me* will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never turn away - Jesus
>*choose* to turn away get what they deserve...
Scripture reference?
Everyone chooses to turn away each time they sin. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
>>78752370
This is one of the most poignant things I've ever read
http://nobility.org/2011/07/11/burial-protocol-austria/
>>78769453
you keep using that word "choose". When you do that, you're implicitly arguing that we have free will. Any notion of a predestined elect means that free will is merely an illusion.
If free will is an illusion, than choice is also an illusion, and nobody can be held to account for their actions, as the locus of moral responsibility in such a world would be it's Creator.
>>78769020
Your entire ant metaphor did not describe omniscience at all. It described an unseen, superintelligent entity indirectly guiding independent actors toward some goal.
Omniscience means you know what the ant will do regardless of how you change its reality, or whether you even fuck with it at all. It means that you know, nanosecond by nanosecond, every move it will make, every thought it will have, every feel it will feel, throughout its entire life. It thinks that when it suddenly chooses to scurry left, it could have turned right, or kept going forward, or gone in any other direction had it wanted to. But the reality is that it could only have ever turned left, because you knew it was going to do so the entire time.
Again, if you can foresee a decision with 100% certainty, then that decision cannot have been made freely, because no other alternative is possible any more. Once the future is perfectly foreseen, it is locked in. There is no escaping this, so either you drop God's absolute omniscience, or you acknowledge that we have no free will.
>>78769658
I'm just using your terminology senpai.
You keep choosing to respond to me, but it's not like you're surprising God in with each keystroke. He predestined you and I to be born into this time period and live our lives to this point to where we are hammering out theology over 4chan in the middle of the night on June 26, 2016. Nobody is forcing you into this. Nobody forced you to tell that lie to your mom when you were 5. You did it because you chose to, but you were convincing because you are naturally good at sinning because of the sin nature that you inherited from Adam. Adam fell as a part of God's ultimate plan of Redemption in order to display His mercy and Redemptive power to all of Creation.
Predestination gives all the glory for your salvation to God alone. If it was any other way, you could claim an ounce of credit for yourself for "making the right choice." And we both know that you don't deserve any credit for that.
I'm going to bed. I want to be well-rested for fellowship with God's people tomorrow! Goodnight anon.
Thoughts on pic related? (Not a prediction of the Rapture/Second Coming, just a possible sign)
>>78770188
No refutation of the locus of moral responsibility argument. Predestination BTFO, Papists out.
>>78770188
>Nobody forced you to tell that lie to your mom when you were 5.
If your actions are predestined, then you are forever locked into a causal chain, and all the moral agency in this scenario rests with the initial cause (ie. god). So yes, god forced you to lie, because he created a universe that behaves deterministically, and set the first events in motion that would ultimately result in your committing a sin when you were 5.
>>78770188
There is no choice or self determination on behalf of any human person. Hence the fact that such each human being can feel this self determination entails God deceiving since puppets are given the illusion of choice and determination when they in fact have none
