Can some christian explain to me what "dying for your sins" means? I don't get this meme.
So Christ sacrificed himself and died for....what exactly? For some metaphysical change in the world? For a symbolic martyr?
*for a symbolic martyrdom?
Christ was a perfect man and the only one able to cross out Adam's original sin which was our burden.
>>77271840
Grace.
Jewish propaganda meant to appeal to your emotions, not to reason.
It's all a hoax created to domesticate and control the white man.
>>77272126
So does this mean you believe a legal change happened in the afterlife? You believe that before Christ's death everyone was doomed to hell for the sin of being born? Does this mean all sin was previously to be inherited but Christ changed fhat?
>>77271840
He was offered as a sacrifice.
You are an atheist trying to troll.
must be saged
>>77271840
Mankind fell from grace and was put under the Law.
All have sinned; nobody has become like God.
The penalty for sin is death.
The life is in the blood.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.
Jesus took the collective sins of mankind onto Himself, suffered the wrath of God for all of them, and died paying the ultimate price for all of them.
There is no longer a sin barrier between Man and God.
>>77271840
In the Old Testament the sins of mankind had to be accounted for with blood, or in other words, animal sacrifice. The purpose is presumably to remind man of the cost of sin etc., animals represent innocence becuase they are not sentient (sentience being the "image of God" by the way.)
In the day of grace, Christ acted as a sacrifice for all future sins. Like the ultimate sacrifice. He was not only totally pure/innocent of sin, but he also had the sentience of not just man but also God- making him the perfect sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Which is why christians don't sacrifice things any more and just confess/repent.
You don't have to believe it but this is one of the more popular beliefs amongst Christian theologians.
>>77272337
No, it's a matter of life and death.
When Adam sinned, mankind died. The Breath of God blown into his nostrils to make him a living being fled the sin. God and sin do not exist together.
Because Adam and Eve sinned, and fell from grace, and died, they could only reproduce children in their own dead image, not in the image of God as Adam was created.
Jesus died so that whoever believes in Him can regain that Breath of Life, the Holy Spirit of God, that Adam lost. He tore down the barrier that made that impossible.
Now salvation is offered to humanity as a free gift from God.
>>77272391
>>77272433
>all these shills trying desparately to justify their nonsensical filthy jew religion
>>77272388
nice meme image you cuck
>>77272433
Very enlightening post
>>77272391
What is a sin barrier? I thought sins were interpreted as defiances to God's written will.
>>77271840
>>77271840
Close. Correct guess is: Metaphysical martyrdom.
Christ is the intercessor between man and God. He is 100% man and 100% God. God came into the world as a man so that man might be redeemed for his transgressions against God.
>>77272709
God does not and will not abide sin. When Adam let sin enter into his body, the Holy Spirit in Adam fled and Adam died.
He who has the Spirit has life; he who has not the Spirit has not life.
Death to God is separation from Him, as He is life. You were born separated from God, and unless you regain the Holy Spirit that Adam lost, you will remain dead and suffer the second death, which is hell. Separation from God for eternity.
>>77272391
If there no barrier then we can't sin? why bother worshipping if you're going to heaven anyway?
>>77272391
>>77272433
that makes no sense, wasn't Jesus God Himself?
Why'd he pay the debt to himself?!
>>77271840
It means that God had to turn himself into a person and deliberately sacrifice himself so that he could atone for a rule he made up where every human deserves to be burnt alive for eternity for something they didn't do.
We also stop being put under the Law.
This is one of the main differences between Jews and Christians.
Jews are all about the Law.
You can't put new wine in old wineskins as they say.
>>77272698
Your understanding is superficial,and at best, at the historical level. You deny the existence of God because the thought of him existing scares you.
A dead jew on a stick.
>>77272977
if god can do anything why couldn't he just say "ok you're all saved now" instead of this retarded human sacrifice shit
>>77272927
If I forgive your debts, then I myself pay myself for your debts.
>>77272698
But this is how people imagine atheists, deal with it.
>>77273206
bump
Explain this, Judeo Christians
>>77271840
God knows why, but He never revealed the reason in scripture. We can draw inferences and think up theories, but there is no authoritative answer to give you. C.S. Lewis also considered this issue, and he came to the conclusion that the "why" of the sacrifice of Jesus is not as important as faith in the fact that it happened and that it redeemed man from Original sin.
>>77272709
When Jesus died on the cross, the veil to the Holy of Holies was ripped down from top to bottom indicating that no longer would just one man have access to God, but that access to God is now open to whomever believes.
That veil was several feet thick.
>>77272927
God's infintely mercyful but also infinitely just.
>>77271840
The idea is that because men are sinners a pure sacrifice is required to pay for sin.
Jesus was the only man never to have sinned so he was the purest sacrifice possible.
Before Jesus, Jews were required to sacrifice their most prized livestock to get atonement for their sins.
Jesus was the sacrifice for all men so that they no longer had to sacrifice animals and practice religious traditions.
>>77272889
Sin no longer makes itself a barrier to the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.
All sin has been properly punished and disposed of.
The Holy Spirit has no reason to leave a person anymore, as He left Adam when Adam sinned.
Sins being taken care of, paid for, and the opportunity to sin co-exist. The sins you do tomorrow were forgiven at the cross. Forgiven and forgotten.
>>77272927
He paid a debt He did not owe because we owed a debt we could not pay, and He did not want to see us all die.
>>77273206
The same reason he didnt smash Adam and Eve into dust and start over.
The same reason he didn't save Job or intervene when Satan tempted Christ.
>>77273206
>>77273476
Because He is holy, just and righteous.
If a man murdered your family and the judge told him it's cool, no problem, be on his way, would that be justice? Would it be holy? Would it be righteous?
No, forgiveness has a price attached to it, and Jesus paid that price.
How should I dress for mass? Is a polo shirt and black jeans good enough?
I've never been to mass before and I was never baptised. I wanted to start attending church for awhile, and then going through RCIA once I'm comfortable. The church I'm looking at does the latin mass every other week with the FSSP. So I assume it is a little more traditional.
Do I need to wear a suit?
>>77273854
Inviting catholics into a discussion about Jesus?
How novel!
>>77273854
Nah youre okay.
>>77273206
It's about the nature of consciousness. When they say we are created in the image of God they mean he have sentience.
The ability to make decisions, to have free will, is the essence of what it means to be like God. By existing in sin, making mistakes, experiencing pain, etc. we understand how to actually exist. God already created perfect beings- the Angels- humanity was a different kind of creation altogether. He also created animals, who exist on instinct and are incapable of sin, etc.
>>77273854
For a traditional mass, I'd wear slacks if you're really worried about it. All of the regulars wear slacks and women are usually required to veil.
>>77273983
>>77271840
Take it from a dead language expert it's a mushroom cult.
>>77273983
Anti-Catholic regurgitation! How shallow and pedantic!
>>77273837
But God cursed them in the first place
>>77274482
Joe rogan pls leave
>>77272337
Be aware that some people interpret the following passage as Jesus referring to those unsaved who came before Him, although Mormons believe (iirc) that He's referring to Mormons:
>John 10:16, King James Version (KJV)
>And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10%3A16&version=KJV
read "reading the bible with rene girard"
>>77273152
>>77272698
>"christianity is a jewish religion" meme
>cries about memes against atheists
This is literally the stupidest meme i have ever encountered. The bible literally says that Jews killed Jesus and Christian Europe was notorious for being anti-Jew. Where do you get off saying that Christianity is Jewish? They're literally the original deniers of Christ.
Why do people worship a dead guy instead of our true saviour: the one and only lord kek?
>>77271840
All abrahamic religions are just the tricks of the jews and their evil spirits that they call gods.
>>77274520
Adam made a conscious decision to sin.
Israelites made a conscious decision to worship a golden calf.
>>77272889
Technically all you have to do is believe in Jesus and you're good. Sin all you want. There's literally nothing you could do to go to hell EXCEPT not believe in Jesus
>>77274520
Everything was cursed so that you would be born into a cursed world and know in your heart that something is seriously wrong.
>>77271840
It is an act of love
>God is love
>This triune God wants to have 'Sons' that are just like him
>Makes angels who magnificent, powerful, beautiful and gracious. Though not as much as him.
>Everything is fine and dandy for everyone till few decide they want to replace God or they got jealous us because God told them what was coming: The first fall.
>Now God needs to fix this but also get what he wanted earlier.
>Decides to create matrix simulation called life
>Creates a much weaker 'son'
>Devil corrupts him as well
>But this time he starts a long ass interaction with this fallen 'son' spanning millenia
>he speaks to him like a father to 5 year old: gives him laws for mundane things and punishments for breaking, shows him a part of himself, his love but also justice and fairness
>his final act is to die for this 'son'
>in this way he fullfills all the little things he taught to his child
>God gets his well taught 'son' that he can keep with him forever.
Meanwhile,
>the fallen angels still think they can win, still hacking plans
>but God by knowing the future already knows how to deal with his every move
>he inevitably ends up helping God
And by knowing the future..
>God already knew man and the angels would fall
>So he made sure every bit of the 'sons' life gave a slice of him, i.e in marriage, in children and in being children
>the way the simulation would pan out and who would be saved were all known in the beginning.
>>77273710
So all people who existed before Jesus and after Adam are in hell?
>>77274690
What Mormons believe has nothing to do with Jesus.
>>77274637
This is what I hate about religious faggots
You never learn anything.
To you it's God, ALL important.
Everyday should contain religious studies espeacially into dead languages and studies in history and anthropology, to you your internal soul is on the line.
Nietzsche had it right you are slaves,
and my caveat you are abomination of what humanity can be.
>>77271840
Heres a hint...it comes from an equestrian anus...
>>77274710
You still worship the jew god.
Christianity is still rooted in Judaism. The first few books of your bible are the torah. It's literally called Judeo Christianity. It originated in Israel. It literally is Judaism except you believe the Messiah has already come whereas Jews are still waiting.
>>77275042
Jesus hates sin, so I'd say that's not a very good plan if you actually believe that He is God.
>>77271840
If jesus died for my sins, then I have a free pass to do what I want and still go to heaven.
>>77274710
Well they do share those first few books, tradition, tribal origin, moral framework, prophets, etc.
But nah, they're not related
>>77275110
They were in Hades before Jesus died, aka Paradise, aka the Bosom of Abraham. Jesus tells the story of that place in Luke, of a certain rich man and a beggar named Lazarus.
When Jesus died, He descended to Hades, to Paradise, and led those captives free, to heaven. So Paradise is empty; anyone dying in Christ after the resurrection goes straight to heaven.
The other side of Hades, the hot tormented side, is still occupied. They're awaiting trial, with no counsel, and they stand condemned already by their unbelief. They will then have the opportunity to prove to God that they are as He is, fail, and be cast into the lake of fire.
>>77274891
God created Adam already knowing he would sin and that the Israelites would worship false idols. He literally knew from the getgo. Why bother??
>>77275183
>>77275309
why do you fags keep blaming the jews for everything bad that happens to you. fuck off
>>77275255
The forgiveness of sins is not salvation.
Salvation is salvation, and it was made possible by the forgiveness of sins.
If you want to be saved, confess with your mouth, that is to say out loud that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead. Do this, and you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)
>>77275376
Hades = purgatory?
>>77275183
God revealed himself through the fulfillment of the Jewish religion in Jesus Christ. Jews deny Christ. Jews are of satan. You think it's a coincidence that jewry is so much of what's wrong with the world? It's because they're fucking evil man. Literally.
>>77271840
He died as a man who would forgive any other man of a conceived sin. ( I say 'conceived' because kikes made up sins as they went along). Being a mere man who would forgive any person, how much more would the Father forgive?
>>77275491
Lestrawmanface.jpg
>>77275255
If you truely believe that, then that work as defence in judgement. But remember God is the judge here. He knows.
>>77275476
Read my post
>>77275476
Because He also knew that a billion of us would choose to be adopted into His family and live with Him forever.
There are costs and benefits to most things. Key is to be a benefit.
>>77275557
This. And also Islam is the religion of the antichrist and Mohammed was a false prophet, just saying.
>>77275476
Where do you get that idea? He gave Adam free will. He gave Jesus free will.
>>77271840
As simple as possible: if you accept Him as your savior and guide in life - you will be able to enter Paradise, a place of perfection and unbound joy. And for a spot in new world that He's going to create after resurrection ( point at which you will get a new body - spiritualized one that's not capable of biological death or suffering - unless the verdict is that you can't enter the Kingdom ).
Otherwise without accepting Him, you will not be able to enter Paradise - but there might be a chance for you after resurrection - because all will be judged then based on every single detail of their life - regardless of their religious beliefs.
( so virtuous pagans have to spend some of their after life inside hell - although without suffering - until second coming )
>>77275309
Jews of today =/= Jews before the time of Jesus
>>77275543
No, there is no Purgatory. Hades was a two compartmented afterlife where the ones God made righteous went to Paradise, and the ones God did not went to Torment.
Everyone in Paradise was led to heaven by Jesus when He arose.
Everyone in Hades right now is doomed.
There is a gulf between the two that none may cross.
>>77275690
Gods all knowing right? He knew that Adam would sin. Why even bother giving him free will? Why bother creating an imperfect being? Why would he want to create anything in the first place?
>>77275812
There's also no compansion for souls in hell if you're in Paradise - because you're a spirit there - the biological relationship no longer takes an act in judging and interpreting reality - everything is revealed to you directly from God, including His judgement.
Technically its god putting on the life of a man and going through all the fucking bullshit his creations go through their lives only to just die in the end and not to be called a cheater he went and picked the life path where you are absolutely fucked - a religious nonaffiliated prophet in ancient palestine
Its also supposed to mean that ALL life matters and even the lowliest scum should be given a chance to repent, even if you know they won't, its just noble and human to do so and separates us from nonsentients who dont give a fuck.
Then the jews and christians watered it the fuck down
>>77271840
isn't suicide considered a sin?
>>77275645
>stubs toe
>"wahh the jews did this"
fuck off idiot
>>77275812
What denomination are you, if I might ask?
>>77275812
Purgatory is straight from scripture. It's in the Book of Maccabees, which is just one of many books that Protestants took out when they created their version of the bible circa ~1500 years after Christ. Look it up, I'm not making this stuff up.
>>77272610
You explained this better than any pastor has ever done for me. Thanks anon.
>>77271840
Let's ask the A.I.
>>77275726
I miss the old jew-ye, straight from the soul jew-ye
>>77275944
He already created prefect beings- Angels (which I might add, he created before mankind). Part of experiencing life in God's image is having the capacity to do evil.
>>77275726
Did you think there were 2000 year old Jews running around? Er, wandering around?
If Jesus was God, knew he was God, and knew with perfect foreknowledge that he would rise again after being crucified, what exactly was sacrificed? Doesn't a sacrifice necessarily entail actually losing something? So Jesus didn't actually lose his life, he knew going in that he wouldn't, and he's still God afterward. Seems like a shell game, doesn't it?
>>77275690
Omniscience and free will are incompatible. If God knows what you are going to do before you do it, then you cannot ever deviate from that outcome. You have as much free will as a rock rolling down a hill.
So either drop God's omniscience (at the very least, in relation to human action), or drop free will. Otherwise, the belief system makes literally no sense.
>>77275944
He doesn't dictate individual actions.
That sort of predestination crap is Calvinist in nature.
>>77275993
>compansion
I'd say I learned a new word today, but I still don't understand how that word is applicable to this conversation.
As Jesus revealed in Luke, the people in Hades knew who they were, were comforted and tormented (the rich man was in torment; he begged for a drop of water for his tongue).
So what you mean by the usage of that word is that God will directly enter knowledge into me, so that I will know Him as He knows me? I can live with that.
>>77276833
He doesn't have to dictate anything, he just has to be able to know it for free will to disappear. The fact that he can even know what you will do makes free will non-existent. He doesn't actually have to look into your future to invalidate it.
>>77276783
It was very painful to be tortured and die.
>>77276133
I'm just a plain vanilla born again evangelical young earth creationist pre-trib pre-millennial priest after the Order of Melchizedek looking forward to ruling and reigning with Jesus Christ over the world for a thousand years.
>>77277000
What's a few hours of pain to an all-powerful, eternal being?
>>77276145
Something that does not belong in the bible cannot be taken out of the bible.
As there is no purgatory in the bible, and as the "evidence" for purgatory in the bible is the bema seat judgment where saved people with zero rewards are saves as though by fire, no.
It was a hoax designed to separate fools from their money, and it was spectacularly successful.
>>77276891
compassion*
>>77277000
But since he didn't die in a meaningful sense, and was just resurrected right after (since God can't die anyway), the only "sacrifice" was a bit of torture. That doesn't seem like the ultimate sacrifice since plenty of people got worse than that and they didn't even get resurrected.
>>77275085
Your understanding of the Son of God is invalid.
>>77275255
>If jesus died for my sins, then I have a free pass to do what I want and still go to heaven.
Your understanding of the sacrifice of Jesus is invalid.
a) Jesus is the Son of God
b) Jesus died for your sins. This means that you are able, through Jesus and in his name, to seek forgiveness for your sins and thus have the right to enter Heaven. You will still be judged, there is no guarantee of entrance to Heaven.
c) Upon death, Jesus went to Hell, and after three days was risen to Heaven and sits at the right hand of God.
d) Accepting the flesh and blood of Jesus, we receive eternal life. The nature of that eternal life is determined by your actions in your present life.
>>77276176
Blessed are they who hear the word of the Lord and do it.
Be blessed.
>>77276783
How many people have you died for? Suffered for? How many people's burdens have you carried? Could you carry the burden of sin this Omar Mateen committed? Could you carry the burden of a thousand Omar Mateens? A million? A billion? Ten billion?
>>77277202
that personal fill-in-the-gaps-with-your-own-made-up-stuff type of history lesson. Thanks m8
>>77276891
What I mean - and I've learned it from what saints told us from their revelations - is that let's say while on earth you would by some miraculous way learn that your mother is in hell, you would cry and live as in hell your whole life. But in heaven, you'll suddenly don't care about your mother - and this was explained by the fact that in heaven you lack a biological body which is bound to make decisions based on the way it works and animal likeness.
As a human in body you make decisions based on organic emotions - on the simple fact that other person is human like you regardless if that person is evil or not - in heaven you see that person life trough the eyes of God by His grace.
>>77276800
Simply not well thought out.
God does not tell you what He knows.
What God knows does not impact on you in any way.
You are free to choose from your (limited) set of available options. Your options do not include "surprise God by my actions".
>>77277446
None. That doesn't make the whole scheme any less illogical.
>>77275647
>>77275563
Can you please explain to me what your understanding of Krishna and Vishnu is?
What was the message of Krishna and other incarnations of Vishnu?
Do you believe in the final incarnation of Vishnu?
>>77277124
What is separation from the Godhead for a relative eternity?
>>77271840
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
>>77277274
Nobody has ever eaten Jesus' flesh.
Nobody has ever drunk Jesus' blood.
>>77271840
Read col 2:14
Romans 1
John 3
>>77277726
>compansion
It means walk in his shoes.
>>77271840
>what did X mean by this meme
>>77271840
The elect
>>77277474
It's better explained by the bible, which says that all old things are passed beyond remembrance.
>>77277274
c) Upon death, Jesus went to Hell, and after three days was risen to Heaven and sits at the right hand of God.
True but you need to understand that Jesus is God and we learn trough the scriptures that in the same day Jesus died on the cross, He was in heaven with the thief, He was also in hell - emptying it and He was still God governing everything.
After the three days and resurrection - the moment of resurrection He was already to the right of Father with His resurrected body - but in the same time He was also present in front of the women that came to the tomb, He was also present among apostles for 40 days.
>>77276800
False dichotomy.
Here is how I understand it: you have a choice. But what ever you choose I can ensue what I want happens in the end. There might be a tradeoff of time or an equivalence between two outvomes assumed.
There you go. Free will with predetermination. The knowledge of the outcome of your choice doesn't matter here. Both outcomes are covered/prepared for.
>>77277124
Death is considered separation from God.
Matthew 27:46
About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").
>>77277202
Luke 16:19-31
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
>>77272208
why do Jews hate Christianity so much then
>>77277569
If my options are
>believe in God
>don't believe in God
And God created me and already knew from the beginning what I would do, that's not free will. He created me and KNEW I'd go to hell.
How do I have free will in that instance?
>>77277578
Further, your capacity to suffer is very small. I cut off a few toes, a few fingers, stab you a few times, you pass out in shock.
Not God. God has an infinite capacity to suffer. So God can take the sufferings of ten billion human beings onto Himself, and feel every bit of it.
No, you'll never understand how Jesus suffered, because you don't give a fuck about God.
>>77276455
>Satan was an angel
>Satan was perfect
hm
>>77277726
Literally all 4 of the gospels contain a commandment by Jesus Christ to eat his flesh and drink his blood. That's why I'm catholic. :)
>>77277938
libertarian free will isnt biblical
>>77277726
Eating bread and wine of communion is a symbolic act that is accepted by God and Jesus to represent the eating of the Flesh and Blood of Jesus.
>>77277726
>compansion
I don't know where that word came from? I didn't put it there.
>>77277881
I have referred to that story at least twice above.
It is not purgatory. It is Hades.
>>77277661
But he knew he was coming back, just as powerful and all-knowing as he was before, if not moreso - he could fly and walk through walls and stuff post-resurection, right?
>>77278033
so much heresy itt
>>77277649
Are there any Indians that can answer these?
>>77277938
And if you go to heaven, He would KNOW that you were going to heaven.
God is not in our time flow. His knowledge does not impact you at all. He knew all your choices before He made the world.
He wants very much for you to be saved, but He made you sovereign so that you could reject Him, if that's what you want to do.
>>77277221
>he didn't die in a meaningful sense
he died in the same sense as anyone else, one state into another. Difference is the reason, the motive, and who he was.
>>77271840
For everything you ever did that was wrong according to Him.
He payed the price for you because if He didn't you would go to hell for eternity because you erred against His ways .... even once is enough.
Its a substantial topic , consider this.
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment
>>77277969
Demonstrating that angels are also free will moral agents.
God created everything good.
Men and angels ruined it.
God is fixing it.
>>77277966
Countless people throughout history endured worse physical torture for longer than Jesus did on the cross. And they died without knowing they'd rise again.
>>77277973
Explain? Do you do any kind of ritual relating to this (besides communion)?
>>77277973
Nobody has ever eaten Jesus' flesh.
Nobody has ever drunk Jesus' blood.
>>77277973
>2016
>believing in real presence and transubstantiation
>>77278033
It is not. That is merely the teachings of a pagan church carrying out pagan traditions that predate the birth of Christ.
>>77275151
Nietzsche died miserably.
Saying Christians are slaves because they choose to follow a path that doesn't let them do just anything they want is like saying Shaolin monks are slaves because they choose to be human weapons instead of just being lazy and swimming in pussy. Does any form of discipline taken from someone else = slavery?
>>77278048
It's a real word that kind of fits. A happy accident.
>>77273107
I also would be scared if something so retarded and sadistic like the christian god was supposed to control my universe lel
>>77271840
Christ faggots used to have animal blood sacrifices, but they stopped doing them after the Jesus hippy offered up his body and died for their sins. Animal sacirfices are no longer practiced because Jesus cleansed them of that duty. At least that's how Christfaggots explained it to me.
>>77277896
Because Jesus hated jews. Seriously he did, that's why he was put to death. A lot of shitlibs try to rewrite the doctrine and claim that he only hated the rich. What they never tell you is that the rich were Jews. Not just any jews, fake jews who claim to be jews. Not unlike today's Ashkenazi jews.
>>77277973
It means walk in his shoes.
>my bad earlier.
>>77278132
>>77278323
Elaborate on your perspective.
>>77271840
Before Christ's arrival nobody was capable of entering heaven. Through earthly death He entered the realm of the dead and utterly destroyed it, taking Adam and Eve by the hands, then the rest of humanity who had waited on his arrival.
>>77278064
You're asking me to do two things.
1. Answer your obvious questions with "yes", and
2. Not despise you for minimizing the sufferings of the Man of Sorrows.
>>77277661
was Jesus also a door then
did paul literally have a thorn in his side
did peter really cast out his fishing nets to catch men
the Bible uses metaphors
>>77278268
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_(Catholic_Church)
>>77278271
I have, and I do every Sunday and every other day that I can find the time
>>77278132
Straya.
>>77278362
I've no idea what that word means.
>>77278469
Jesus gave us a command to eat his flesh adn drink his blood. In one of the gospels it is translated from the original Greek as literally "gnawing" or "chewing" on his flesh.
Jews used to sacrifice lambs. Jesus was the son of God. His sacrifice was the ultimate Jewish sacrifice.
>>77278418
he deff was angry at the scribes and pharassees
who later wrote the talmud, it really is harder for a rich man to go to heaven, mostly because they are to prideful to accept the gift
>>77278265
No, they did not. You just think they did because you have zero comprehension of the matter.
I'll give you a hint. The whipping, flogging, punching, kicking, slapping, beating, beard pulling, being nailed to a cross and slowly suffocating suffering was less than the smallest number percentage I can assign it compared to the other suffering Jesus endured.
For your sake. And mine, but at least I did what I could to make His suffering effective for me.
>>77278052
Sorry not a Catholic
>>77278240
How do you explain the presence of things that are not good (evil, etc...)? Does God simply accept the existence of it, permit it, regulate it, enable it?
>>77272377
Right, because an all knowing, all loving, all encompassing God of infinite power needs us to spill blood to be appeased in order to atone for transgressions.
Makes sense!
>>77278482
Not my problem if you can't explain how coming back to life just as good as he was before was actually a "sacrifice".
Stay mad, bro.
>>77278675
thats a very pagan way to vew the lords supper, does the wine and bread taste different in the vatican?
>>77278736
>compared to the other suffering Jesus endured
Pls explain. Are you referring to an emotional suffering unrelated to the crucifixion?
>>77278713
the lamb of the old testament, without spot or blemish, was the promise of Jesus to come and pay for sins
>>77277872
Glad there are still people who think like you my friend
Westerners are just completely devoid of sanity
Most of them a bunch of autistic fedora shits. And not just on 4chan
>>77278721
It's harder for a rich man to go to heaven because his words are of earthly things and we can only take words with us that are of spiritual things.
>>77275151
You are right. Religious people never contributed anything to science... fucking idiot.
>>77278874
The suffering is the sacrifice. The resurrection is display of absolute power. Stay dumb.
>>77277569
>You are free to choose
You only think you are. If God knows that exactly ten minutes from now you will eat an apple, what choices are available to you when the time comes? You can certainly deliberate about what to do, but at that exact moment, you will either eat the apple (confirming God's omniscience) or do any other action (denying God's omniscience). In the former case, you are evidently not "free" in any meaningful sense, because your future is locked in and you cannot deviate from it. In the latter case, you are free but God was wrong.
>>77277881
>Free will with predetermination
That's not predetermination, that is simply accounting for uncertain outcomes. In your example, God doesn't actually know what you will do, therefore he must accommodate several potential scenarios. True omniscience means he has 100% certainty, therefore only one possible outcome will result.
>>77278834
do you understand how forgiveness works?
>>77279019
I find that hard to believe.
>>77278469
The Catholic church is a pagan institution. It has pagan practices that go back to Babylon. One of those pagan practices is the belief that if you eat god, you become godlike.
Jesus said "this is my flesh" as He handed His disciples bread, before the crucifixion. He handed His disciples wine, saying "this is my blood".
Jesus' body really was literally broken for us. His blood really was literally shed for us.
But our remembrance of that, our communion, is not cannibalism and vampirism.
It is eating what He gave His disciples, unleavened bread, and drinking what He gave His disciples, wine, in remembrance of what He did for us.
Jesus did not tear off hunks of His body, and did not open a vein for His disciples.
And Judas partook of that bread, and of that wine, and was possessed by satan, betrayed Jesus, committed suicide and went to hell.
If you do what Judas did, expect Judas results.
>>77278885
>Catholics are pagan
Never heard that one before. (sarcasm)
http://www.catholicbible101.com/theeucharist.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuyDc0Y8QrA
>>77278736
If his capacity for suffering is infinite as you claim, the combined total suffering of every human being who ever lived is still miniscule compared to how how much he could hypothetically suffer, that it may as well not even exist.
Your move.
>>77278487
The suffering of Jesus Christ is not a metaphor, nor are metaphors false.
Tell the catholic that Jesus is not a door; he thinks that Jesus is bread and wine.
>>77278498
You never have, and your attempts to do so have failed.
You have no truth in you, and your church cannot save you (even if they wanted to).
>>77271840
He actually did it to confuse dumb asses like you.
>>77278171
You don't see any difference between the """death""" of a literal god and the death of a regular human?
>>77279102
Wouldn't it have been an even greater sacrifice if he'd stayed dead though?
>>77279158
>Judas was at the last supper
>Judas betrayed Jesus
>If you join Jesus at the table like Judas did, you will betray Jesus too
Protestants actually think like this. So backwards.
>>77279062
if a rich man repents and puts his trust in christ, he will be saved, but i have noticed most rich people who were born rich, dont do this
>>77277872
The Son is not the Father. Your understanding of God is invalid.
>>77279158
If catholics are pagan, you are a reformed pagan. Or a heretic pagan.
>>77279305
Yes, you hate Catholics, I understand. I will pray for you that God may allow you to see with eyes unclouded.
>>77279324
Nigga, I'm an atheist trying to be nice and understand the major opposition I have in the right wing/ally against Islam. Calm your teeteronies
>>77278830
Things happen in God's permissive will that do not happen in God's express will. It's a complicated dance of God's sovereignty and the sovereignty He has given His creation.
Evil is not a created thing, but a twisted thing; a perverted thing; a misused thing. Sex between a man and wife is holy; sex between a man and another man is evil.
Before the creation, there was nothing evil.
After this creation is wrapped up on Judgment Day, and Hades and everything else unholy is cast into the lake of fire, outside of that lake of fire there will exist nothing evil.
We'll be as we were made to be.
>>77271840
pix or it didn't happen.
there are pictures, drawings, sculptures and engravings or every important person in history, dating back to well over 1000 years BC.
But not Jesus. No one bothered to even draw a picture of him until AD 200 or slightly later.
It's almost as if he didn't even exist. Or he just wasn't important.
>>77279145
we both have our own presuppositions on things, if your a naturalist, you presupose a natural way of things, the jews where looking for a messiah, i would say Jesus met the prophacies, but talmudic jews reject that, i can give you two OT passages that allude to christ, whether they convince you or not is really up to you,
Psalms 22
Isiah 53
>>77279615
No. If he stayed dead then he wouldn't have been recognized as the messiah. Coming back to life kinda proves you're special.
>>77279254
i was talkin bout the lords supper not the attoning sacrifice
>>77279655
Jesus said "one of you will betray me" It wasn't a revelation, he was asking for someone to do it. Judas was the only one with balls enough to do it. Every other disciple said no.
>>77273501
And then catholics came and sewed it right back up again behind idolatry, communion and confession :^)
And just for that little bit of extra heresy, they threw in idolatry for free.
>>77279690
You said that because I said Jesus is governing the world - of course Jesus does that.
Trinity was never less than Three Persons in eternity - this means that the ENTIRETY OF REALITY in eternity was never governed by less than Three Persons.
Jesus is just as active and responsible as Holy Spirit and Father.
All Three created the world together, all Three govern it together, all Three are praised as One God.
No being or creation exists in God - everything, even His best angels are outside of Him - only Persons of Trinity are in God and for eternity.
>>77279178
Jesus did use metaphors in his teachings
John 10
>>77278834
It's true. You have to take it on faith. Skepticism is a natural human response to stories that do not fit into their world understanding. On Faith you must accept that God sacrificed His Son.
>>77273710
This is how much love Jesus has for us. Just like trump running for potus, he didn't have to. But he made a sacrifice for the whole.
Atheist here. Just started reading the Bible.
I got done with Genesis.
When does it get good and move beyond the Jewish "I will make you a multitude of nations" kike garbage?
>christians say everyone is inherently sinful
>struggle to think of any sin I commit
>when I ask christians about this they suddenly unload about what a horrible person they are who beats their kid and flirts with married men online or whatever the fuck
jesus needs to die a few more times it seems
>>77278834
What I find worse is that God allows infinite punishment for finite actions.
>>77279986
that has nothing to do with whether or not ot was a "sacrifice" though. as I say in my first post, a sacrifice necessarily entails something has been lost, by definition. So far, no one has been able to show what was actually lost in this transaction
>>77279689
Those that don't will be in what could be called purgatory, going round and round using words like car, mansion, gold and silver etc, words that are no good whatsoever to a spirit
>>77279983
Don't worry about me brother. Satan has visited me at night (or early in the morning) and tried to tempt me. I rejected that beautiful being.
>>77280438
Christians are adopted into the line of abraham
>>77271840
It's best not to question it. You'll just get a bunch of circular, nonsensical logic. Believe or don't, no amount of argument or persuasion will change a person unless they are predisposed to a change at that point in their lives
>>77278834
God and Jesus is one and the same, "God" sacrificed himself for our sins so we could repent
>>77280530
purgatory isnt really biblical
>>77280204
and this particular teaching is explicitly not a metaphor. as i said, in the Greek original it is a command to literally "gnaw" or "chew" on the flesh of Christ
>>77280561
How does that benefit me and why should I feel good about that?
>>77280546
did you read them? you should
>>77280438
It doesn't get better for people like you. If that's what you took from Genesis, that's about what you'll get from the whole Bible. You need to respect the Bible in order to understand what it's trying to tell you. Until then maybe you should try sticking with something you do respect and see where that takes you.
>>77280233
>You have to take it on faith.
Yep.
>>77280710
I've read the bible front to back a few times.
>>77278939
I really can't. This topic is too holy. Just know that the separation from God, taking each and every crime ever committed by anybody onto Himself, and suffering the wrath of God made the physical suffering as nothing.
>>77280715
Give me a reason to respect it beyond the fact it's old
>>77280692
you shouldnt, until you repent and put and put your trust in Christ, Gods wrath is upon you
this applies to unrepentant Jews too
>>77280715
What should I take from Genesis then, besides death, destruction, plot holes and meaningless descriptions of generations that literally mean nothing?
>>77279104
You do not have as a choice "surprise God".
You also do not have as a choice "jump to the moon".
Deal with your limitations.
>>77280497
Oh I see your point. That is kind of weird. Maybe it should be called a "demonstration" instead of a sacrifice but idk.
>>77280778
Read those two again
>>77280438
If you read it only as a literary work - you will taste more genera and species than the one in Genesis - lyric, epic, law, sacred hymns, poetry, historiography, Wisdom, prophetic and apocalyptic pages, short prose and novel cores, dramatic scenarios, philosophical essays, aphoristic sentences, prosodic incantations.. and so on - you just read 50 chapters of a relatively short book ( what 200 pages if you put it in a standard book ) - a book dedicated to common people, and deliberately written so that it can be understood by everyone and you already complain about some nonsensical stuff.
Bible is a collection of books anon but if you didn't notice that from when you opened it, I don't know what to say...
>>77279958
>>77279753
On Faith you must believe it.
John 20:24-29
“Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
God is da bess
Jesus wuz a good boy he dindu nuthin
>>77280880
Wow, thanks for that non-answer.
And you Christfags have the audacity to wonder why you can't convert anyone back.
>>77279183
He Who knew no sin became sin so that you might live.
Your move.
>>77279655
"Just eat the wafer and drink the juice and you're saved."
Judas.
>>77280455
>christians say everyone is inherently sinful
I am Christian and I don't say that. Everyone can make a mistake. It was the jews who created the concept of sin and its consequences. It's what fed them.
>>77279697
To the Catholics, I'm a heretic as I refuse to bend the knee to Rome, upon pain of death.
>>77280106
No, but God knew Judas would. The question is:
- Is it Just to send Judas to Hell given that God knew Judas would betray Jesus?
>>77281020
Hurr Durr I can quote a book. Shame your statement is just rhetoric that proves nothing
>>77279741
Your prayers go nowhere, papist. Save your breath.
I hate Mystery Babylon with a white hot holy hatred.
Why should I believe in real presence of Christ in communion? Is there a literal change in substance? Am I drinking blood even though it's contrary to The New Testament prohibition of Acts 15:29 to stay away from blood?
>>77280630
it is. It is in one of the books that martin lutehr tried to take out of the bible. he also tried to take out Jude, James, and Revelation.
>>77280102
Animals were atoning sacrifices; they only covered up the sin for a year.
Jesus died in propitiation for our sins.
They're gone.
>>77280903
If you cannot surprise god, then you have no choice at all. Like I said in the apple example, what kind of choice is there when the only possible thing that can happen at that time is you eating that apple? And this, recall, is just addressing God's look at a specific point in time in your life. He can allegedly know every single moment in your future. If every instant of your entire life can be foreseen with perfect accuracy, then you are living deterministically and "choice" ceases to have any meaning, because you no longer have any agency. There is no dancing around this, it's fundamental logic.
>>77271840
>Can some christian explain to me
>>>/b/
>>77280630
Maybe that's the wrong word, I mean a place where people with such words reside.
>>77281089
No one ever said that. More like protestants say "just believe and you'll be saved" "faith alone" etc
>>77280125
Does kind of make you wonder what the temple Jews were telling each other. Then again, the sun went dark and the earth shook, so they probably lumped it all in with that.
>>77273206
The fact that this deity must have an exchange entails no forgiveness. When a debt is forgiven, we don't expect the other party to pay up.
I would never sentence anyone to an eternity of punishment, no matter what they did to deserve it.
Does that make me more forgiving than God?
>>77281020
Is that actually biblical, that he "became sin". I've heard that he suffered for our sins, but not that he *became* sin. And this still doesn't explain what he actually sacrificed, since I assume he then un-became sin at some point, right?
>>77280438
Genesis is awesome. If you don't like Genesis, you should probably just resign yourself to eternal torment.
Heaven ain't for everyone, you know.
>>77280998
i cant convert anyone, only the Holy Spirit can, i just proclaim the Gospel and answer questions on the faith, whats the part you have a problem with? ill do my best to answer you
>>77280438
The entire old testament is set up to establish a necessary context for Jesus Christ's arrival on Earth in the New Testament. The OT basically covers the rise, prosperity, and slow decline of the nation of Israel until it get crushed by Babylon, and then the exile, and finally the return to Israel. And it is these historical events that you need to understand.
Of course, the message of Christ is the same, and if you want you could jump right into the NT and read from there, and in fact, I would say you actually do that. But reading the OT helps to understand why Jesus did some of the things he did while on Earth, and why the Jewish scholars of the law would get so mad they would try to kill him.
The entire OT is an example of just how hard it was to be found just in God's eyes, and the consequences of not following His law.
>>77280438
What is your purpose for reading the Bible?
(not trying to discourage you from it)
To start off with, I would suggest asking yourself if you really are willing to believe the story that Jesus died for your sins and was resurrected. Knowing that skepticism is a natural human response to stories that do not make sense to them.
>>77280455
There are so many laws in the bible everyone sins every day no matter how Christian they are and it even says in the bible that you likely commit sins that you didn't even know were sins. Christians are just as imperfect as Atheists although in most cases express more morality and Jesus died once for the sins of all men and salvation is a free gift unto all who believe in Jesus and the sacrifice he made for mankind.
>>77280455
Ever told a lie?
Ever stolen anything?
Ever put something before God in your life?
Kept the sabbath day holy, have you?
Ever covet anything?
Get jealous?
Hate anyone?
Call anyone a fool?
Wish someone were dead?
Look at a woman with lust?
No?
>>77281226
Explain why History is against Proturds
>>77280480
People who die spiritually dead are dead forever. They get put into dead people storage. Forever.
And people who are alive are alive forever, and live with God forever.
I've read the quran and the bible, both are incoherent rambling nonsense from beginning to the end.
It is impossible to believe in ramblings per se, so interpretations are needed for there to be anything to believe in and that's what religions are.
Problem occurs when the interpretation is nonsense as well (as in this case), then there is nothing to believe in. Of course...there is faith, which means you chuck it all out the window and simply declare to believe everything, even if you don't care to read or understand what there is to believe in.
Well, none of this ridiculous mess is the work of a true god either way so we've spent 2000+ years on nothing. We can spend some more...
>>77281180
Judas was the one who lay on Jesus breast. He was aware of the consequences of his actions.
>>77280867
>>77280883
Well I can try I guess.
The book deals first with the creation of the world and man. Most people at this time followed pagan belief systems that told them they were slaves created by the gods for their pleasure and they should always fear them, and that the gods used war and violence to create the world so humans should use war and violence and keep slaves to better their own lives.
In Genesis, the entire universe is created peacefully with WORDS and there are no forces that can oppose the one God who created it. It then goes on to tell people that they should rest one day every week no matter who says otherwise, and that humans were created by God in His image, not as slaves, but as beings with free will whom God LOVED.
The Old Testament was written to empower people. If you don't respect that because you can see the meaning, you're fucked because you won't see the meaning until you take it seriously ffs.
>>77280958
It's very inspiring brother.
>>77281267
Only verse in the bible Catholics claim it directly takes about Purgatory hence it must be real is from old testament, a book which takes part from "History" section of the both Septuagint and Masoretic text.
2 Makkabees 12 - 45: But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
Therefore he made atonement for the dead so that they might be delivered from their sin.
^ this last part is what they claim it's the proof, the translation I used is made by scholars from oxford university - totally not interested in dogmatic laws.. it's NETS - New English Translation of the Septuagint
In the context of the book - the verse talks about the power of the prayer from humans while still alive before of God - the prayers can save souls from hell.
We know that there was no kingdom for the Jews - no heaven and they were aware of that it was part of the culture, but in the same time they were aware that there was a place in hell where they were not tortured, a place for virtuous souls.
>>77281538
I have a problem with all of it.
It's barbaric garbage. It's literally on the same tier as Islam. The only difference is that we moved civilization behind sandniggers' barbarism.
We're civilized and don't need religion anymore. It's basically an obsolete concept.
That aside, I don't understand why I'm supposed to feel uplifted or happy when God says "I will spread your seed and create you a strong and mighty nation." These are antiquated concepts and mean nothing to me.
>>77281267
protestants only took out the apochrapha, because it wasnt cannonized until the middle ages, luther made plenty of mistakes about the others, but im a calvinist so it doesnt bother me :)
>>77281180
We don't know what happens to Judas since he did repent after he betrayed Christ and NT gives a two different accounts on how he did. Then there's also one early tradition of his death on top of that all
