For all things Christian
Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants alike are welcome to discuss theology. Try to be polite.
Atheists also welcome, but try to be constructive.
Pastebin for believers and curious folk.
http://pastebin.com/xMQ9wAwW
Sunday, June 5, 2016
Liturgical Year C, Cycle II
Today's Mass
Tenth Sunday in Ordinary Time
Readings for Mass
First Reading: First Kings 17:17-24
Responsorial Psalm: Psalms 30:2, 4, 5-6, 11, 12, 13
Second Reading: Galatians 1:11-19
Gospel: Luke 7:11-17
Today's Rosary: The Glorious Mysteries
Good Scenes to watch
>Jesus Anime
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d-uB0vaoQo
>Jesus of Nazareth Sermon on the Mount:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDCbJ4vnMNg
>Jesus chases Jews out of the Temple
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEtBs6j7QgU
>Jesus gives sight to the Blind....and takes sight from those who can see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY7vamVg99E
>Roman Centurion has more faith than anyone in Israel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNLSBjYDPko
>Ben Hur scenes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVlf7OiiTJE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbt2UUthWg0
>Why Atheists shouldn't discourage Christianity even if they don't believe in it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqQdc0mX1_c
first for raising five christian children
second for living a life beside Christ
>catholics in america
How much of the old hebrew law still applies to us? I often see Deuteronomy and Leviticus brought up to justify labeling others as sinners (like Leviticus 18:22 against the gays, or Deuteronomy 22:5 telling women not to wear pants), but at the same time nobody gives a shit about rare steaks or sacrificial offering or mixed clothing fibres.
>>76210932
>not catholic
I bless every single one of you in Lord Jesus' name, regardless of your denomination.
God loves you all, let us love our neighbour as ourselves.
'Sup, Christfags. Against organized religion here, not against belief in higher power or intelligent design.
How do you find spirituality through religion? I'm sincerely curious.
>>76210852
>5 kids
Nice
>>76211000
Usually they address things they wanna change, they stopped sacraficing cow and lambs but they didn't address faggoty cuz fags still ain't welcome.
>>76211000
>Leviticus 18:22 against the gays
We don't have to look to Leviticus to talk about why homosexuality is degenerate.
>1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
THAT BEING SAID
The law still applies in the sense that if possible, we should try to follow the law as best we can. The Ten Commandments for example are the essential guideline.
However, since Jesus has fulfilled the Old Testament we are no longer under that law in the same way that the Hebrews were.
>>76211183
People find God when they look for truth. People who don't seek, don't find.
What a person does when they find God is up to the individual.
>>76211104
>being a pagan
>>76211183
>spiritual but not religious
i am sad that i will never be able to wholly describe how gay i think people sound when they say shit like this
>>76211183
Salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ
>>76211346
Amen
>>76211290
Why does she have a dick drawn on her face?
>>76211114
>Solomon is a strong sounding name in english but literally is shlomo.
>>76211000
>How much of the old hebrew law still applies to us?
O.T. & N.T. both command us to love, it's just that the Levitical practices for the temple and tabernacle are no longer applicable. The law doesn't apply to those who are in Christ. And those who choose to be under the law are basically unable to be right in God's sight because they are unable to be righteous on their own, and even if they could follow all their commandments, a person is still unable to be acceptable to God through works of the flesh, but by faith.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
>>76211183
>Against organized religion here
Please read the OP video I posted about why Atheists shouldn't discourage Christianity.
That is your answer to that.
>How do you find spirituality through religion? 'm sincerely curious.
Vid related is extremely beautiful and spiritual , and is something you would never have without Holy Orders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxsA3J_3kEA
>>76211000
We are in a new covenant, so we live by grace, but some of the laws carried over. Go to YouTube and look up Tektontv, and find the playlist with Christians and Old Testament
>>76211317
>mfw when I ask someone what they mean by 'spiritual but not religious', and they never reply with a real response
>>76211297
Not to protest in favor of degeneracy, but Paul's word is not 1:1 the Word of God. At least, not as the old texts were.
>>76211948
All 66 books are the inspired word of God
>>76210713
Christianity would be semi-decent if it wasn't for universalism.
>>76211948
The scriptures of the Bible are inspired by the Holy Spirit.
>>76211885
Religion implies mandatory uniform adherence to dogma.
Spirituality implies searching for meaning of life and possibly of truth.
Religion = associated with kiddy diddling
Spirituality = passing interests in yoga, buddhism, etc.
When someone says they are spiritual but not religious, they probably mean they are looking for something to explain their inner feelings but they don't believe the answer to be in a man-made organization.
Religion is a mental illness.
>>76211317
Spiritual means getting in contact with your spirit, your consciousness, your "inner self".
Many ways to achieve this. You can drop DMT and explore the farthest reaches of consciousness.
You can meditate on existence and belief that nature itself is a superior being that balances every action we take.
You can mediate on the insane chances of a few atoms combining and somehow developing sentience. Given the infinite time of the existence of the universe, the "monkeys with typewriters" theory is more plausible than you think. And given that we're very close to developing AI, maybe we are a rogue AI of a higher species.
Religion closes every discussion on existence by telling you that God did everything. And the group think will always cause an "us vs. you" mentality. I'm not a part of any athiest group exactly because of that. Your spirituality is your own path to take.
>>76212200
It's not Biblical Christianity Jesus talks more about Hell than he does heaven
>>76212278
Denying God leads to absurdity
>>76211989
My doubt is toward everything but that there are thoughts. You know that doesn't mean I'm incapable of acting however I want, obviously.
I can have faith and doubt - they're not mutually exclusive.
Knowledge isn't an act. It's a state of affairs you need to establish as actually being the case, and can only be claimed in certainty. If you can establish certainty toward any proposition, I won't complain about it.
>>76211545
Thinks it's just scars
>>76212200
Dubs of truth
>>76212089
If that PRACETEOM fucking tripfag is here, give a shout out
>>76212231
I know what it means, I'm just saying that I find it interesting how people don't really know what they really mean when they say it.
Also, yoga is a religious Hindu act and Buddhism is a religion, but besides that I agree with everything in your post.
>>76212495
>>76212428
Cheers mate
>>76212564
Sundays are great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P41kPfi8uME&index=2&list=PLiEjuGSqZK0NGKaEgieUvMPw-QRfNTtWM
>>76212543
The eastern countries like China and Japan tend to mix religion and philosophy
CHRISTIANITY IS NOT FUCKING POLITICALLY INCORRECT
THERE IS A FUCKING CHURCH ON EVERY STREET CORNER. THERE ARE CHRISTIAN TV CHANNELS.
BEING CHRISTIAN IS A BADGE OF HONOR FOR POLITICIANS ESPECIALLY REPUBLICAN.
>>76212653
Correct, and we do as well.
>>76212748
>ESPECIALLY REPUBLICAN
m8
>>76212748
Yes it is
>>76212305
What a load of fucking bullshit.
>>76212428
>I can have faith and doubt
If you have faith, you trust in God's Word, correct?
If you doubt God's Word, you can't have faith, correct?
>>76212543
Well, I had a passing interest in yoga before I was saved because of the use of chakras, but no interest in Hinduism. I wasn't interested in worshiping animals or any of that other garbage.
>>76212748
it is definitely politically incorrect if you're a millennial, especially if it's traditional.
>>76212089
>What's the alternative to not reasoning about the extents of our reason? That's how we figure we can reject contradictory states of affairs.
The alternative is not self-refuting everything we way while we say it. That's self-contradictory on whole 'nother level of magnitude
That is, to (axiomatically) accept that you cannot know what precisely you cannot know through reason
>>76212957
>everything we *say
>>76212305
>spirituality means whatever I want it to mean
The problem with this is it's justified with feelings. Some might say everything is justified by feelings, but a meth slamming, 666, bareback fag could make claim to as much spirtuality in their feelings and actions, as yours.
I hope you can see why mans spirtuality can not be left to his own devices.
>>76213067
Spiritualy without Christianity is demonic
>>76212860
Many people don't know this, but various yoga positions are actually prayers/salutes to Hindu gods. In saying that, I do realise that you weren't into yoga for that reason.
>>76212309
>>76212359
I'm not referring to the eschatological position, I'm talking about the "one religion for everyone" phenomenon. Very egalitarian, very leftist.
>>76212957
It's not self refuting to say I have doubt about whether my sensory experience corresponds to reality, or whether those things I'm operating as if they were true might very well not be true.
I don't say "cannot". I'm more humble than that. I say "it appears as if I cannot".
>>76213280
And satanic
>>76213280
>I'm talking about the "one religion for everyone" phenomenon.
Anyone pushing that is knowingly or unknowingly pushing the Globalist agenda, which is Biblically Anti-Christ in its very nature.
>>76213168
Agreed
>>76212359
Freemasons are free to practice any monotheistic religion, which has traditionally been a denomination of Christianity.
Most Satanists are actually atheists, which would place them in "Absolutely Bananas Tier".
And as we all know, [spoiler]Catholics are the true heretics here.[/spoiler]
>>76212428
>My doubt is toward everything but that there are thoughts. You know that doesn't mean I'm incapable of acting however I want, obviously.
But why would you? (doubt)
>I can have faith and doubt - they're not mutually exclusive.
By why would you doubt the very act of knowledge through your own knowledge?
>Knowledge isn't an act. It's a state of affairs you need to establish as actually being the case, and can only be claimed in certainty.
Why should knowledge be only claimed in certainty?
I myself believe human knowledge can never by itself attain it. But by only God
>If you can establish certainty toward any proposition, I won't complain about it.
My mind could not begin to comprehend a certainty even if God so much as given it for me to know of it
>>76213387
>>76213351
So you guys don't think christianity is the one true religion?
How does that even work?
>>76210713
>Christcucks
AHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>>76210713
>muh invisible sky-daddy!
mfw
>>76213341
As I say here (>>76213486), Why would you doubt?
What reason do you have for it and how do you justify it?
>>76213493
No we want everyone to realize the truth of God.
But what the modernization of the Church is doing, is making leftists say "Oh, Christianity is right and Satanism is right at the same time! We are all Hindu/Buddhist/Muslim/Christians at the same time! Let's unite under our vague one-world-religion"
This is Anti-Christ in its nature.
>>76213729
Amen
>>76213729
Again, I'm not talking about universalism as in everyone gets saved or universalism as in "every religion is true". I'm referring to the phenomenon that christianity brought to the world, that is the idea that there's only one true religion. That's what makes it bad, especially for ethnic-minded people.
>>76213508
>Heresy
those aren't christians, those are heretics.
>>76213486
Because it's possible any proposition that isn't a necessary truth is wrong. One (seemingly) *must* doubt to be consistent with logical possibility.
I don't have knowledge of anything (except one thing, which doesn't have to do with doubt toward other propositions) by which I could doubt knowledge by my knowledge. So I don't.
>Why should knowledge be only claimed in certainty?
Because that's how I qualify knowledge. It's essentially the same way Descartes qualifies it. You don't have to qualify it that way, but in that case when we each talk about "knowledge" we're not talking about the same thing. My criteria is as rigorous as it (seemingly) could be.
You have a certainty already - thoughts exist.
>>76213729
>doing, is making leftists say "Oh, Christianity is right and Satanism is right at the same time! We are all Hindu/Buddhist/Muslim/Christians at the same time! Let's unite under our vague one-world-religion"
I don't think anyone is saying that. The liberal theory of multiculturalism is that people of differing belief systems can live in harmony, not that they need to agree religiously.
>>76213655
Here ya are senpai.
>>76214098
>>76212305
Damn you sound like a faggot. Good job proving that other guys point.
>>76214005
If that were true then it would be impossible for different nations to have different cultures as long as they practiced Christianity.
>>76213341
>I don't say "cannot". I'm more humble than that. I say "it appears as if I cannot".
Also, why would you? Who's to say that our perception of delineable falsities and truths are as a matter of fact mutually exclusive and wholly delineable
There are quantum and mathematical superpositioning. And perhaps absolute certainties bear semblance to a moulding or truth-values and a suspension of the tertium non datur
We may never know what we may never know
>>76211297
> Bought into the OT doesn't apply the same way meme
> Wonder why the West is degenerate
Face it anon, the Torah, as interpreted by Jesus, is the best and most complete guidelines on how to live a moral, happy, healthy, and wealthy life.
Cherry picking from the OT just makes us look hypocritical. My testimony to non-believers has been incredibly strengthened and legitimized by holding myself to the same standards throughout the book.
> What about stoning the gays?
Only applicable where there is a functioning Sanhedrin, two witness catch them in the act and ask them to stop, but they persist. Might also be additional criteria I'm not aware of atm. Larger point is that homosexual actions have been wrongly legitimized by the MSM.
> Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind!
Silly poo in loo Ghandi bungled the real meaning of this verse, which was that one ought to provide equal monetary recompensation if someone injures you/hurts you/slights you, which is the basis of settlement payments in our legal system today.
I'm so conflicted. I don't know if I can believe in God but I somewhat want to.
I keep having visions of kneeling before Jesus and saying "I can't run anymore. I can't keep fighting it."
But my mind is torn. I don't know what to do or believe.
>>76214573
Most of the differences between people predate christianity and only survived thanks to syncretism or stuff like that.
Anyway, I don't even know how you can reconcile differences between races with having the same god. What does it feel to worship the same being as a nigerian?
>>76213474
>Most Satanists are actually atheists.
Not actually true.
>>76211303
Beautifully worded, friend.
>>76211346
Amen
>>76214935
>Anyway, I don't even know how you can reconcile differences between races with having the same god.
Humans adapting and evolving in different environments does not stop them from being human.
Morning service discussed using the internet in the context of Luke 5:4. Pretty neat considering I just started reading /csg/ last week.
Anyone else care to share about their Sunday morning sermons?
>>76214586
You're rejecting logic at that point though. You can do that, but then you don't have a framework by which you can really talk about anything coherently.
Unless you can imagine a world in which necessary truths are mutable or other contradictory states of affairs instantiate, that's the one line I'm sticking to.
>>76210713
Hello brothers, good to see these threads continue being such a succes. Thank you
I'm glad these threads are here btw. I don't know where else to discuss this.
>>76214940
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism
I have a Satanist coworker, and from what he tells me it's all about self-determination. They don't actually acknowledge God or Lucifer as beings that exist. More Nietzsche than Crowley.
>>76214098
>One (seemingly) *must* doubt to be consistent with logical possibility.
Only if one must have an insatiable need to do so
Knowledge need not necessarily be known
>You don't have to qualify it that way, but in that case when we each talk about "knowledge" we're not talking about the same thing. My criteria is as rigorous as it (seemingly) could be.
There are bits of incomplete and changing knowledge that we may grasp. What is true right this minute, may not be true in the next, et cetera
And what we may know at this point may undergo a paradigm shift once substantial new knowledge would be added
It [knowledge] isn't necessarily in absolutes in the same sense God would be
Still limitless [the knowledge of God] but not* as absolute as the whole of God
*think of different infinities, one being infinitely grander than the other
>You have a certainty already - thoughts exist.
Only by virtue of me not being able to perceive that I not exist
>>76215174
Still, while you probably do admit that different groups of people are made for different types of society, you can't admit that they're made for different religions.
>>76215336
Nowhere else I know of where you can banter or rationally discuss as you please and not be banned.
Christian forums are too deferential in tone for me to like frequenting them. It can be a bit dull.
>>76215577
I wouldn't join one anyway. I don't want to talk to fundies.
>>76215551
It depends, there are a lot of edgy fedoras that are drawn in by the "Atheist-Satanist" vibe of it.
But Anton LeVay was not simply an Atheist.
>More Nietzsche than Crowley
It makes me sad when people think Nietzsche is comparable to people like this.
>>76215554
>Only if one must have an insatiable need to do so
No, it's just a seeming fact. There is such thing as necessary doubt, unless you can overcome the possibility that whatever proposition you're talking about is a falsity. And I don't think you can do that without begging the question. If you'd like to try I'm all ears.
>>76210713
>Liturgical Year C, Cycle II
>Today's Mass
Orthodox version
June 5, 2016
Readings:
Acts 16:16-34
John 9:1-38
Other:
Sunday of the Blind Man
>>76215569
>Still, while you probably do admit that different groups of people are made for different types of society, you can't admit that they're made for different religions.
In the same way that birds don't have the same communities as foxes, but they still have the same creator.
>>76215554
>Knowledge need not necessarily be known
It wouldn't be knowledge then. Something can be *true* and not known, but a necessary component of knowledge is being known (by some mind) with certainty.
>>76210713
Current gf says she wants 5 kids. If I marry her we're going to be like a production line
>>76211297
>1 Corinthians 6:9
>>76211948
Looking a verse further 1 Corinthians 6:11
"I have the right to do anything," you say--but not everything is beneficial. "I have the right to do anything"--but I will not be mastered by anything.
Important: Biblical cliches that purely have to do with the communication and relationship between the writer and the receiver of the letter, Biblical book.
Important: look at verse 11. What use is it to look at the Bible at all if the meaning is filtered out?
The writer mentions a number of things here in verse 9 but with that he does not undo Christ's fulfilling of the law. The great commandment doesn't suddenly no longer apply.
Important: if it is about some subjects, it is common in Christianity that people lose their mind. What matters is the truth. But if it is about some subjects, this insult would stick to anyone saying it? Or even a life long special preference?
No way.
>>76215233
I wouldn't mind. I take care not to divinise logic
At least not human logic
Its rules (that we have now - in formal logic/ pure mathematics, and informal logic) and axioms, are nowhere near as perfect and as beautiful as they may well indeed be
I have a feeling (purely personal of course) that there may well be more than what our own current epistemological tools are revealing to us, or that we could ever by ourselves be able to reach
And I have nothing but reverence to Him from which could emanate such a feat
>>76215774
I'm actually an ex Satanist. I stopped it after about 2 years because I found it rather pointless. But I was fully into it when it was all new to me.
Then I started easing up on Christianity after having talked with a few and seeing what leftist atheism does to societies.
Now I'm torn. Part of me wants to believe in God and another doesn't because I don't know if I genuinely can.
>>76215846
We're discussing two different aspects of religiosity and the fact that you can't differentiate them is not strange given you're a christian.
Sure, you believe your god created everyone. From that, it doesn't necessarily follow that christianity is the right religion for everyone. Maybe nigerians relate better to spiritual life by believing in vooodoo or something. Maybe mongolians function better with shamanism.
>>76216174
Every creature, if they are going to acknowledge the creator, should do it right.
Also
>Implying that voodoo acknowledges a single creator.
>>76214930
I'd find a local church and contact the pastor. What region are you in? It's possible we have some people browsing this thread that are nearby.
>>76215774
I don't know anything about LeVay himself. I just know that some modern adherents subscribe heavily to the ideas of will-to-power and a moral framework without God.
>kneeling before Jesus and saying "I can't run anymore. I can't keep fighting it."
Maybe that's a sign for you. Have you ever tried praying, friend? I suggest you find a quiet place and just kneel and pray. Forget anything else exists. Do this for a while and you'll notice a difference in your life. You'll feel more at peace.
>>76215554
Introducing dynamism into the conversation doesn't really change anything though. Something can be true at one point and not be a necessary truth. It would be a contingent truth, and be expressed as a claim about a prior or immediate time state. "There is x" where there is x, is true. If there *was* x, and then it comes to be that there isn't, "There is x" with the qualification of denoting a prior state in which *there was* x would still be true.
>Only by virtue of me not being able to perceive that I not exist
It's a necessary truth that one can be certain of regardless.
>>76215936
I stand corrected then.
Let it be then: The *content of knowledge need not necessarily be known
*that which the statements represent in reality, independent of the person who would hold them
I was just trying to be poetic
>>76213493
John 14 Jesus is the way the truth and the light, no one can come to the father but through him
Read in this order Romans 1, Romans 3, John 3
>>76215690
I generally don't like doing so either. Some are nice but you get too much dogmatism.
>>76216174
>it doesn't necessarily follow that christianity is the right religion for everyone
The Divine Inspiration and Salvific Nature of all Religions is a heresy stemming from the 20th-century Freemasonic takeover of the Vatican.
>>76214930
Read Romans 1
>>76216397
>Every creature, if they are going to acknowledge the creator, should do it right
And under universalism, right means "one way for everyone". That's what I was referring to when I said that it's the worst aspect of christianity (and one of the most leftist)
>>76216058
>Important: if it is about some subjects, it is common in Christianity that people lose their mind. What matters is the truth. But if it is about some subjects, this insult would stick to anyone saying it? Or even a life long special preference?
>No way.
No offense Dutchbro, but I can't understand what you're trying to convey.
Anyone seen a good Catholic v Protestant debate on youtube?
>>76210713
If I have to be constructive, then at least can say Christianity did a good thing in moral and cultural terms, but today it should be abolished in dogmatic terms. Cast the commie Christ and his Bible out and all will be a-ok
>>76216575
I know that, see >>76216681
>>76216458
>I'd find a local church and contact the pastor.
Eh. I dunno. I'm not the kind of person who likes me preached to or bullshitted.
>>76216465
I do. I don't subscribe to it anymore but knew it front to back as well as the personal history of the CoS & LaVey if you had any questions.
>>76216156
I don't divinise logic. I just like it and recognize nothing makes sense without it.
>I have a feeling (purely personal of course) that there may well be more than what our own current epistemological tools are revealing to us, or that we could ever by ourselves be able to reach
I certainly hold it's possible that such is the case. I actually have the same feeling.
>And I have nothing but reverence to Him from which could emanate such a feat
And gratitude I'd add.
>>76216743
James white has some good ones
>>76215197
Catholic here.
We actually had a missionary come in today to talk about some of his work in Africa.
>>76216776
You haven't read the Bible
>>76215956
Good for you, man. I wish I had a GF like that. :/
>>76216810
>one way for everyone
>worst aspect of Christianity
Wow you Roman-Catholics are way more ecumenical than I thought.
>>76216743
I know of a 30 year long debate between Catholics and Protestants
>>76216058
In this thread >>76134508 I said some things. Someone asked something with quite a lot of motivation.
My id was uQjVBmsc. It could look ''''''as if''''''. Saying things about this. But this is not the truth. I don't have to do anything anyone else doesn't.
>>76215785
>It's a necessary truth that one can be certain of regardless.
>necessary
Only by virtue of me not being able to "unperceive my existence"
Think of it this way. "I think, therefore I am". By whom am I to? To you, to me? We literally perceive that I exist (I directly, and you through a few inferences)
Independent of the perception of our minds, do I exist?
>>76216522
Knowledge isn't its own content? When we talk about information, we don't distinguish information from "the content" (of information).
>*that which the statements represent in reality, independent of the person who would hold them
Are you an essentialist too then? I see what you mean, but you're basically just saying "x need not necessarily be known", where x can be anything (except perhaps "there are thoughts"). And I wouldn't disagree with that, but it's not exactly a counterpoint if that was your intent.
>>76217080
NI belongs to the Irish Catholics desu
>>76217245
I don't talk about "I". I use "thoughts exist" and not cogito ergo sum very intentionally.
>>76217080
>we're here for a debate with the protties
>>76211312
>stealing traditional catholic clothing
>>76217390
>this autistic existentialist crisis having, epistle denying anarchist tripfag shitting up every Christian thread
>>76216511
Tell me some necessary truths then [regardless of time/ Dynamism, et cetera]. And what would qualify them as such in your book?
>>76217646
I'm an anti-existentialist. What are you blabbing about Tyrone?
>>76217415
Paul taught a doctrine of salvation by grace through faith eph 2:8-10, Romans 5:1
Anyone, including Angels, that teaches a different doctrine than Paul is to be anathema, Gal 1:6-10
The Catholic Church teaches a different doctrine than Paul
Gnostic raised Catholic here, why do other Catholics have this spoilt child attitude when it comes to Protestantism. A lot of arguments made against their points are usually like "we were first so we're right!" and don't actually explain any further.
>>76214930
>i dont know if i can, but i somehow want to
focus on this, this is your natural desire as a human with a soul to seek truth in a wicked world.
you may find, like many here, that the evidence for Gods existence is everywhere and in everything.
>>76216819
i disagree with the suggestion to attend a church service in this stage. It is a place to go and worship. when you have sought out out the truth and found it in your heart and mind, you'll be drawn to go on your own accord.
>>76217669
1+1=2.
There are thoughts.
These can't not be true if we're utilizing logic as our input/output framework.
>>76217732
Nobody cares, get behind me Satan!
>>76217919
10/10 m8
>>76217866
>you may find, like many here, that the evidence for Gods existence is everywhere and in everything.
I'm not easily persuaded by "look at the pretty flowers".
>>76217889
But are numbers material, can you give me a Bucket of 1 or 2
>>76217853
nice strawman faggot
>Not realizing the Catholic Church is a Satan worshiping globalist NWO organization
>>76218010
>But are numbers material
I'm not one of those people who tries to instantiate they are; I'm not a materialist/empiricist/physicalist/naturalist, so I simply don't care. There are plenty of empiricists who do - talk to them about it if you care.
>>76218147
You've just proved my point.
>>76216776
you're mistake is to believe that the other 2/3 of the worlds poulation will agree with your new found agnosticism. the pious over come these weak cultures, you'll see this play out over in over in europe in the lead up to what looks like war.
i do applaud your defense of the faith and ask you continue to do so when possible... or at least not stab your fellow westerners in the back.
>>76217853
It's not "a lot" of their arguments. It's all of them. They are literally *all* appeals to authority/tradition.
>>76217153
Such bad state this whole subject is in: in this thread the thing about addiction came up too.
With the current state of the subject even worldwide this means we, in this thread too, are basically enormously duped.
>>76218224
And I'm proud to be a Protestant, were I know I'm saved by Grace, and I won't forget Romans chapter 5, cause I'm justified by Faith.
>>76216776
Taqiyah at play right here
>>76217853
Catholicism was founded by Lord Jesus in 33 AD, it is the only valid church. The only reason protestants split off in the 16th century was because they were power-hungry nobles who wanted to weaken the Church.
>>76218256
How do you know 1+1 = 2 ?
>>76217415
catholics... eternally assblasted that their rules and customs arent written in the bible anywhere.
>>76218457
Try 315 Ad
>>76217289
I was just trying to say you don't need to try and know everything my m8 :) Don't work yourself up too hard
>Knowledge isn't its own content?
Sorry, to clarify: I believe the truth-value of knowledge (its content) exists independently of the person who believes them (and implicitly stores them as knowledge)
So if we all die right this moment, the facts that are absolutely true, or false (which we may never know for one) will still remain as such right immediately after that very moment
>>76218279
not at all. Catholics literally waste hours to try and let stupid protestants understand why their faggot preachers are taking them to hell. Plenty of evidence for that.
They just refuse to listen.
>>76218457
That doesn't argue against their beliefs though. Why do we pray through Mary and the saints, surely God is great enough to hear all our prayers directly?
>>76218580
The palagians infiltrated their church long ago
>>76218612
>315 AD
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 [A.D. 110]).
Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a Church. I am confident that you accept this, for I have received the exemplar of your love and have it with me in the person of your bishop. His very demeanor is a great lesson and his meekness is his strength. I believe that even the godless do respect him (Letter to the Trallians 3:1-2 [A. D. 110]).
>>76215956
>5 kids
Absolute minimum desu
>>76218147
Mark 12:30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
>>76217853
>>76218147
>>76218359
>>76218457
these types of catholics do not truly walk with the lord. their ideology isnt about walking the path... it's about subjugation. they have of course lost sight of the true purpose of Christianity.... salvation.
when salvation takes a secondary role in your thoughts and actions, you have forsaken the Lord.
>>76218554
In no world can you imagine it's not true ceteris paribus.
The addition of two "one" units gives you two of the those units. The negation - 1+1=/=2 is nonsense if you keep to the meanings of the terms.
>>76218809
keep strawmanning
>>76212359
>>76213474
second that. Masons literally couldn't care less what religion you are, so long as you can all agree upon there being a God and leave it at that. Catholics have such a retarded position on this literal non-issue
>>76218625
As someone who currently identifies as neither as I can't call myself a true Catholic, I'm willing to listen to both sides. Usually it's the Catholics you give the lazy answer "Just go on www.catholic.com its all there" that's not going to persuade anyone.
>>76217385
>>76217415
>tfw prod birh rate is low af
>>76218727
Catholic Church is the spiritual body, the Roman Catholic Church is an unbiblical governing body the Romans made when they adopted Christianity
>>76218727
Irenaeus
The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189]).
Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. For she is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the things pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. For how stands the case? Suppose there should arise a dispute relative to some important question among us. Should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant intercourse, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question? For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us writings? Would it not be necessary [in that case] to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they did commit the churches? (ibid. 3:4).
Can we at least all agree that King James Only adherents are brainless heretics?
>>76218971
>Catholic Church is the spiritual body, the Roman Catholic Church is an unbiblical governing body the Romans made when they adopted Christianity
Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).
>>76218859
How can any terms have meaning in your world view
>>76219063
kjv is garbage
>>76218457
>33 AD
Now that's a good meme anon I guess since we're just making shit up now about your satanic cult thag Hijacked Christianity might aswell say the Catholic Church also not only was founded in 33 ad but every religious figure alive and dead at the time came back on that day and said "THIS IS THE ONE TRUE CHURCH"
>>76218704
literally all of their arguments are dismissed by asking them to show where that is in the Bible. i really want to help these people... Christianity is about walking the path, and they are off in the weeds.
>>76217390
>>76217889
And what would qualify them as such [necessarily true] in your book? Logic?
And if so, define logic if you will
>>76219083
Even if they contradict what Paul taught as Gospel Galatians 1:6-10
>>76210713
Christianity is the only truth in this world. what is truth? Jesus is truth. the only truth. the one that calls you from your soul and says my way is easy.
>>76218890
perhaps you should concentrate on discussing faith and salvation with the curious instead of attacking your fellow christian brothers?
>>76218961
>north Ireland will become mostly catholic in your lifetime
It is the duty of every Catholic to outbreed protestants.
>>76218623
I try to know everything? I don't know where you might've gotten that idea from.
>Sorry, to clarify: I believe the truth-value of knowledge (its content) exists independently of the person who believes them (and implicitly stores them as knowledge)
Well knowledge is necessarily truthful. Sure - the truth content isn't dependent on people. I think it is dependent on God, but that belief functions out of axiomatic commitments. If we assume God, all truth is knowledge, because God knows (and is) all truth. If we don't, though, we can't really talk about knowledge outside someone knowing truth with certainty, since anything else isn't knowledge at all.
>So if we all die right this moment, the facts that are absolutely true, or false (which we may never know for one) will still remain as such right immediately after that very moment
Yeah, I agree with that. I'm not a relativist.
>>76218365
Oh oh (the right smiley) I sort of suddenly come up with this in the discussion.
This: >>76150255
How completely different from how things are now. I posted it because it was really motivatedly asked. So it could look unfitting.
>>76219301
Like the days of Noah shall it be before the return of Jesus
>>76218971
Clement of Rome
Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).
>>76219146
>every religious figure alive and dead at the time came back on that day and said "THIS IS THE ONE TRUE CHURCH"
they did
Irenaeus
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).
>>76219224
they don't. You came up with your Gospel in 1500. We never changed it. As usual the pot calling the kettle black
>>76219288
I am not attacking anyone, just telling you the truth. Don't like the truth? Your problem not mine
Went to Mass this morning, great ceremony all around.
If you didn't receive the Eucharistic today you shouldn't be posting here.
>>76218809
>it's about subjugation
I often suspect that, though I don't know if it's true since I don't know the hearts of people I converse with or have heard of.
daily reminder catholic still based
>Pope says gay marriage is from satan
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/pope-francis-same-sex-marriage-move-father-lies-total-rejection-gods-law
>Pope Francis speaks against Gay adoption
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/12/pope-francis-shocked-by-gay-adoption-urges-bishop-to-speak-against-it-boldly/
>Compares trans rights to nuclear arms race
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/pope-francis-compares-arguments-for-transgender-rights-to-nuclear-arms-race-10061223.html
>Pope Francis says that there's no salvation outside the Church
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2013/06/03/pope-francis-is-under-attack-for-saying-that-outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation-its-a-poke-in-the-eye-says-one-presbyterian-why-hes-wrong/
>He excommunicates an Australian priest supporting gay marriage and women clergy
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/24/pope-francis-excommunicates-priest-greg-reynolds_n_3983059.html
>Pope Francis is against gender theory and for traditional gender roles
http://ncronline.org/blogs/francis-chronicles/pope-francis-gender-theory-problem-not-solution
>Pope is against abortion
http://www.lifenews.com/2015/09/23/pope-francis-on-abortions-innocent-victims-its-wrong-to-look-the-other-way-or-remain-silent/
>He Encourages the use of force against ISIS
http://www.businessinsider.com/pope-francis-endorses-use-of-force-against-isis-in-iraq-2014-8
>Pope Francis is against lukewarm "faith"
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-off-the-cuff-to-priests-religious-indifference-makes-god-vomit-69700/
>The Pope is misquoted often
http://www.christianpost.com/buzzvine/7-times-pope-francis-was-misquoted-132679/
>The Pope Rebukes Communist Cross
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/bolivia/11729834/Pope-rebukes-Bolivias-President-Evo-Morales-for-gift-of-crucifix-mounted-on-hammer-and-sickle.html
What does /csg/ think of this man?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eftrQOVqZ9g
>>76218971
>>76219083
catholics literally pray to bishops and saints and mary... none of which should be anything other than footnotes in history.
i hold martin luther in high esteem... but the idea of praying to him is foreign. the Lord Jesus Christ hears my prayers, the trinity is the way to salvation.
>>76219101
I'm a metaphysical realist. How could they *not*?
>>76219571
>catholics literally pray to bishops and saints and mary
again, strawmanning. We don't do any of that
>>76219491
You tell 'em fellow Roman.
Protestors still protesting 500 years later... let it go kids. You have become disciples of Luther not Christ.
>>76218727
>Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father.
>Commit idolatry by worshiping a man who has gained a political position in a religious organization claiming to be your only way to heaven
>Sin
You Catholics are so concerned with proving the validity of your denomination's man-made rules that you forget to read the gospels, I swear it.
All that is required to gain eternal life is to follow the first and second of the Ten Commandments.
>>76219491
John 3, Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 4, John 6:37,
The Catholic Church teaches a different Gospel
>>76219508
the vast majority of catholics have piety in their hearts and walk the path... they are not the ones screaming at protestants for studying the Bible and following the Lord.
Just be aware these people exist (catholics/orthodoxy)... and only seek to harm those with true faith.
>>76219571
I'm a Calvinist
>>76219497
waiting til I get baptised m8
>>76219694
You do though.
>>76219572
And you know this with absolute certainty?
>>76219697
You follow a man with a funny hat who contradicts scripture
>>76219694
>>76219491
have you read your own posts?
why do you continuously bring up these random people who have no relevance to Christianity?
these are false idols my friend, re-read the 10 commandments.
>>76219820
Oh you are? So you are a disciple of Calvin.
I'm a Christian. I follow Christ. Do you believe that God spoke through Calvin?
>>76217853
real talk though, what exactly makes you identify as Gnostic? and do you adhere to any Church now? for instance, still Catholic in churchman-ship but not belief?
>>76219181
I think you know what "necessary" means. It can't be otherwise. 1+1=2, given the meanings of the terms, cannot be anything but true. There is no world (bound by logic) in which 1+1=/=2 given the same meanings of terms.
Logic consists of a formal or informal language together with a deductive system and/or a model-theoretic semantics. The deductive system is to capture, codify, or simply record arguments that are valid for the given language, and the semantics is to capture, codify, or record the meanings, or truth-conditions for at least part of the language.
>>76219880
yes if you define it that way
>>76219951
Yes, with a direct line back to Peter whom Christ gave his Church to in order to safeguard.
Do you believe that God was working through Luther? Was he divinely inspired?
>>76219983
No Calvinist is a slur, I believe in the doctrine of Grace, Calvinism is just the way people know it by, buts more reformed theology
>>76219413
>I try to know everything? I don't know where you might've gotten that idea from.
Don't tell me you haven't gotten this close to the very idea of absolute knowledge and you're not already drunk with it
A million steps towards infinity is just as far from that infinity, but you must've been tempted to assume otherwise at some points
>>76219880
No? I don't need to in order to believe it. If you want to abandon logic, you go right ahead and do so.
>>76219737
>>Commit idolatry by worshiping a man
None of that is said. We don't worship men
>You Catholics are so concerned with proving the validity of your denomination
We don't, because we already know it is the One True Church
>man-made rules
Nope, that's protestantism
>you forget to read the gospels
we don't
>All that is required to gain eternal life is to follow the first and second of the Ten Commandments.
That gate is narrow. You know about the Catholic Church, and yet you stay out of it. You are not justified by ignorance. The gate is narrow, very narrow.
>>76219769
>>76219769
>The Catholic Church teaches a different Gospel
We have always taught the same Gospel. Protestants changed it.
>>76219860
>You do though.
We don't. We ask saints and Mary for intercession. They pray for us.
>>76219976
>why do you continuously bring up these random people who have no relevance to Christianity?
The early Church fathers, who were direct disciples of the Apostles are irrelevant? LMAO
>these are false idols my friend, re-read the 10 commandments.
You don't even know what those words mean then. Showing you Catholicism has always been the christian faith since the beginning, in no way elevates them to false idols. You are a broken record
Are Catholics allowed to drink blood?
>>76220175
So when your church broke away from Christ's church, who led them?
And was that man divinely inspired and was God working directly through him as a Prophet?
>>76210713
>discuss theology
I giggled.
>>76220166
John 10, my sheep hear my voice, so yes, I can verify what they taught through scripture, I don't have to take a popes word for it
>>76219063
>>76219139
>Christians with true faith in Christ are bad
in a world with less and less faith, perhaps you shouldnt focus on hurting protestants, especially those with true faith in the Lord who walk in his path?
i know you are only here to troll, and to disrupt the conversation, and to make the curious in this thread run away... just recognize this evil act for what it is, you want to push those people away from the Lord because you somehow falsely believe it benefits yourself in some way.
>>76220196
I can account for logic in my worldview, you assume logic works
Letter of Clement to James
Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).
>>76220181
Not particularly. I accept I've got a temporal limit and likely other limitations that might make coming to "know everything" in this world impossible.
Conjoin that with a belief in God and that I'll be with Him in heaven and I don't really sweat all what I don't know.
>>76220365
So you claim that God used Martin Luther as his agent on Earth and that Luther was a Prophet.
You rejected the Church of Christ to follow another Prophet.
>>76220448
Yes I do. And?
>>76220258
Read the passages of scripture I gave you, and tell me who is following the bible
>>76220258
>We have always taught the same Gospel.
With regards to divorce and contraceptives that's inaccurate.
>>76219146
Because your back-room church in a tire store is the one true church, right? You protestants are too funny.
>>76220326
That's begging the question. The Catholic was infiltrated by palagians
>>76219491
>not attacking anyone
yes, you are. and quite literally steering the topics away from Christ and the Bible. Who could possibly be directing you to push people away from faith???
when pointing something out, please try to list the verse of the Bible it appears in,,, if it doesnt appear in the Bible, it isnt Christian.
>>76220045
>I think you know what "necessary" means. It can't be otherwise. 1+1=2, given the meanings of the terms, cannot be anything but true.
But need they have the same meaning as they do for the respective statement to be valid?
>Logic consists of a formal or informal language together with a deductive system and/or a model-theoretic semantics. The deductive system is to capture, codify, or simply record arguments that are valid for the given language, and the semantics is to capture, codify, or record the meanings, or truth-conditions for at least part of the language.
That is the aim of logic, correct. But how would we know that, as a matter of fact (and I'm talking about the kind of fact that is completely independent of what you or I think, or even upon our very existence) that is what it does?
>>76210713
>Protestofags
>Catholics
>"christian"
>>76210713
i am very vaguely religious, not even a Christian.
Just wanted to say God bless all of you Christians. I would be honored to Deus Vult along side of you on the day of the reckoning.
>>76220644
I would like to know if Protestors believe that Martin Luther and Calvin were Prophets and inspired by God as messengers.
We're they visited by Angels? Did they perform miracles?
And if not why do you follow them?
>>76219447
soon.
>>76210932
Oi what about my cousins
>>76216058
>>76217153
>>76218365
>>76219427
>>76216704
Anyway, what this comes down to is that be it homosexuality, be it anything else mentioned in 1 corinthians 6:9 can not be called unacceptable as it is now.
>>76217607
There is no X in Christ
X is the damian Temp Stuff : -DDDD
>>76220781
You too, heathen!
>>76220427
I'M Protestant, but anyone who rejects more accurate translations of the holy text for no good reason is rejecting a better understanding of God.
If anything I assumed it was a topic that would unite the faithful in this thread.
>>76220487
Perhaps now, that you have matured
But let me tell you that I was like a maiden about to get her cherry ravaged when I first started to do philosophy
>>76219563
CTRL + C do notepadu
dzięki, anonku
>>76220550
we are following it. You pervert it with your man-made doctrines from 1500
>>76220586
divorce and contraceptives are not allowed
>>76220661
keep strawmanning
>if it doesnt appear in the Bible, it isnt Christian.
Christianity is not islam, it is a living faith where we are constantly in communion with God. None of what we teach is unbiblical anyway. You just pervert Scriptures to fit your heresy.
Pic related.
>>76219497
>Eucharistic
please guide me to the bible verse for this, pic related, i couldnt find it. if i am steering my faith in the wrong direction as a protestant... please show me the way through scripture my brother in Christ.
>>76220893
Were Luther or Calvin divinely inspired? Did they perform miracles or meet with Messengers of God?
Did they have visions?
If not why do you follow them from Christ's Church?
>>76220883
I hope it will be like this
>>76210932
>Protestant with European origin
Go back to Africa the true white religion is Catholicism.
>>76219571
>pray to bishops
Nope.
>saints and mary
We ask for their intercession. Which is almost like asking a friend to pray for you.
>>76220955
why do you believe in the Trinity? The word "trinity" is nowhere in the Bible
>>76219697
rarely do my thoughts even go to Luther. I pray to the Lord Christ.
how often do you pray to saints, and mary, and your holy see.... asking them through prayer to guide your actions?
>>76220690
No - you could have 1 mean 2, and 2 mean 4, and it would still be valid. But in no world in which 1=1 and 2=2 as we understand and mean them does 1+1=/=2. Which is the point.
We don't. We're assuming it does. But I'm not willing to abandon logic unless God were to tell me to, and I don't suspect that to happen. I don't suspect you are either - if you were this conversation would be incoherent.
>>76220955
My friend it's Greek.
Christianity didn't begin in 1500....
>>76220427
I might be guilty of trolling a little bit, but protestants are often spreading lies about Catholics. The KJV is not a good translation. It was made for political purposes.
>>76210713
Explain this
>>76220258
if i should know these men, please point me to the bible verse speaking of their works.
also, reiterating that "catholicism has always been the way" is a complete lie. please brother, you appear to have only hatred for the Saved in your heart. we are brothers in faith, let go of this anger and hatred.
>>76221140
If you followed and honored Christ you would venerate His mother Mary.
>>76220901
I've always been a very even-keel person, so I'm afraid(?) I'm telling the truth.
Not gonna fault you for being passionate though.
>>76221049
Luther was inspired by his God-given ability to REASON to re-evaluate the texts and see how the Catholic Church perverted their meaning.
>>76220166
this holy see is less of a christian than most protestant psuedo believers... he preachers that homosexuals are pious... that atheist can enter the kingdom of heaven... that the west must disappear
how you still follow this man is amazing to me. any preacher who said these things would have been cast out... this is why all protestants are considered preachers.
>>76221339
> reiterating that "catholicism has always been the way" is a complete lie
It is absolutely true instead. We are there where we have always been. You decided to reject and leave the Church of Christ
>you appear to have only hatred for the Saved in your heart.
I have no hatred in me, but I despise your arrogance in calling yourself saved when even Paul wouldn't dare say that of himself with such certainty. You are full of pride and that is simply despicable.
>>76221627
That's not church doctrine though.
>>76221736
I love how Protestants totally ignore parts of the Bible they don't like, then claim to be Biblical and so much more holier than everybody else.
>Work out your salvation with fear and trembling
Obviously they think this doesn't apply to them. Protestants literally claim to be holier and than St. Paul himself.
>>76221194
>No - you could have 1 mean 2, and 2 mean 4, and it would still be valid. But in no world in which 1=1 and 2=2 as we understand and mean them does 1+1=/=2. Which is the point.
How do you explain the way reality *supposedly functions at the quantum level? (and the mathematics that are used to explain those observations)
Superpositioning and the likes
*supposedly because I don't know really know the field in any detail
>We don't. We're assuming it does. But I'm not willing to abandon logic unless God were to tell me to, and I don't suspect that to happen. I don't suspect you are either - if you were this conversation would be incoherent.
It's not *really* logic unless it *actually* does what it says it does
And until we'd ever know that, we're just pretending that it does
But I have no problem with pretending and that's why our conversations keep having coherence
>>76220501
most protestants dont even know who martin luther is ... certainly dont pray to him... never ask him to give them strength...
your catholic polytheism is not normal. only Christ can receive your prayers. i can accept and discuss true criticism, but i really see no real criticism in this
you are literally worse than the atheists, your words in this thread only seek to drive people who are curious away, you arent even replying to people who are legit asking questions ... just so you can bash protestants - those with salvation.
>>76222056
keep strawmanning
>>76220945
you do not answer any questions.
why are you steering the conversation away from Christianity to attack those who already have salvation... and quite literally ignoring the curious who may still yet be saved through faith in christ?
>>76221379
To each his own I guess. Everyone has to go through childhood at one point
>>76221223
please show me the bible verse, i want to regain my salvation if you think i am mislead.
>>76222000
nice digits brother
>>76222225
>you do not answer any questions.
What questions did I not answer?
>those who already have salvation
nice arrogance you got there m8
>>76218453
>write about how Christianity is bad for being a middle eastern invention
>get called for using a shia method of hiding faith
>live in a country where there are 0 of em
Nice logic you got going there
>>76218317
Faith in the survival of the race is paramount. If some priest wishes to tell me that I have to be good to those who wish me ill, if a priest withes to forbid scientific benefits to our race, it a priest puts his faith before his race, then his entrails should suffice as a rope for him to hang
>>76216884
The Bible in short
>stuff that never happened to fill out the gaps of how life came to be since it was the best explanation back then
>lots of magic stuff happening to only middle eastern people
>"There is no Greek or jew, all are on in Christ"
It is a good read tho, to all other I also recomend a few good fanfictions made on it: the Quran and Book of Mormon, and the equally great spinoff The Communist Manifesto.
>>76220945
Did you read them and explain them to me then
>>76222017
Quantum superpositioning doesn't pose a problem for the idea of necessary truths.
It looks like it does what it says it does. I operate as if it does. The fact that I'm not willing to say it *absolutely* does doesn't change the fact that we're using it and will likely keep doing so.
>And until we'd ever know that, we're just pretending that it does
I wouldn't say "pretending", but yeah - we're certainly just assuming it. It's an axiomatic commitment. And it's the one most people seem to have the very least resistance to adopting.
>>76221118
i have faith in the interpretations, much like you do, yet i dont condemn people with hate in my heart like yourself.
i woould much prefer to spend my time talking to the curious... yet you are here, spewing anger and hatred to anyone who will listen.
you are literally worse than an atheist. are you motivated by somehow thinking you are helping someone, yet that person already have a solid faith in Christ?
i struggle to see your motivations being anything other than nefarious. a demon steering your words and actions in this forum.
>>76222353
Everyone's childhoods are different though. Just like all people are different. You can't generalize your experiences and expect them to correspond to everyone else's bruh.
>>76222515
what do you want me to explain? Justification?
>>76220802
No, but all born again Christians are saints, and are allowed to read the scriptures and understand it, so if Luther or Calvin found a mistake that the church is following, and they do not correct it, than they have a right to leave the church
>>76220802
I don't "follow" anyone but God senpai. And neither should you.
>>76222683
They Bible says that we are saved by Grace through faith, eph 2:8-10; the Catholic Church teaches differently
>>76222225
>Work out your salvation with fear and trembling
Why do you ignore this, heretic?
What makes you holier than St. Paul that your salvation is guaranteed and his was not?
>>76222653
>i dont condemn people with hate in my heart like yourself.
I have no hate in my heart, and I don't condemn you, truth does. I simply tell you the truth. If the truth is condemning to you it is your problem not mine.
>yet you are here, spewing anger and hatred to anyone who will listen.
keep strawmanning
>you are literally worse than an atheist
>this is what protties actually believe
lmao
>yet that person already have a solid faith in Christ?
If you had real faith in Christ you would do his will.
>a demon steering your words and actions in this forum.
who is the one condemning and judging now? None of us is steered by a demon. You are simply misguided.
>>76223000
You certainly insist it's true. You can't seem to establish it as such though.
>>76222934
By "God" I'm assuming you mean your own internal monologue.
>>76222934
Right, Do It Yourself lol
Absolute Apostasy familia. Rebel Protestors still heretical 500 years later.
>>76222967
Justification refers to the method by which we are made right before God. Since only those who are justified can enter heaven, it is important that we get this issue correct. Protestants claim that we are justified by faith alone. They say that all one has to do is to publically proclaim their trust in Jesus as their Savior. Strict adherence to a list of do’s and don’ts is not what salvation is all about, they claim. On the other hand Catholics believe what Jesus said in Matthew 7:21: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."
In Romans 1:17, Paul tells us that, "The just shall live by faith." The Catholic Church is in full agreement with this statement. However, she does not agree with the way some would define faith. The Church speaks of faith in the biblical sense. While Paul says, "the just shall live by faith," he also says, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6). He further states, "If I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing… And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love" (1 Corinthians 13:2, 13). Why is the greatest of these love? Because without love there is no saving faith.
So then, how is love manifested? Well, in Romans 12:9-13 Paul says, "Let love be genuine, hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good, love one another with brotherly affection, outdo one another in showing honor. Never flag in zeal, be aglow with the Spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in your hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints, practice hospitality."
>>76223098
God of all Creation. You can read His Will in the Bible.
>>76222653
>demons
>dwelling on a Korean techforum
>>76221736
>>76222000
i wish to have salvation... please if you have a bible verse showing that i must have eucharist, show it to me. i am full of great satisfaction and love fills my heart knowing i have the salvation through my faith in Christ.
please, i am being serious, show me a bible verse that completely devestates my Christian faith because i dont do something a catholic guy said to do centuries ago.
>Protestants literally claim to be holier and than St. Paul himself
who says this? also, i must point out that Paul was a man. saints as you call them were men, they do not hear and answer prayers, praying to them is not Christian faith.
>>76223098
This tbqh
They don't even confess their sins, so they have never been forgiven...
>>76223152
Which version of the Bible?
>>76223147
In Romans 1:5 Paul speaks about the obedience of faith. He said: "Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles." For Paul, to have faith meant to take action. But didn’t Paul say: "There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1)? Yes he did and as Jesus points out that is only true if we remain in Him (John 15:4). Paul expands on this in Romans 8:13 where he says: "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." He also says: "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified" (Romans 2:13).
When the Philippian jailer asked Paul, "Men, what must I do to be saved?" Paul said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved" (Acts 16:30-31). Some take this to mean intellectual assent, but the Biblical concept of believing means to act in accordance with. Jesus tells us in John 3:36, "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; He who does not obey the Son shall not see life." So not obeying is not believing.
Notice how Jesus answers the rich young man who asked, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" He said, "You know the commandments…sell what you have and give to the poor" (Mark 10:17-22). In Matthew 25:32-46, Jesus characterizes the saved as those who feed and clothe the poor and visit those in prison. He also characterizes the damned as those who refrain from such activities.
>>76222675
>You can't generalize your experiences and expect them to correspond to everyone else's bruh.
Got it, sheesh. It was just me dropping some platitudes
Where's the smalltalk spirit in you?
Before I respond to the other post, got to say it was a pleasure talking my m8
Keep at it, God bless you, and take care.
You have my total respect for getting so far ahead
>>76223283
In Revelation 20:12 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 we are told that we will be judged by our deeds. Was the Apostle John in error when he wrote, "And by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His Commandments? He who says 'I know him' but disobeys His Commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps His word, in him truly love for God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in Him" (1 John 2:3-5). Finally, we are told in 1 John 3:23, "And this is His commandment, that we should believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as He has commanded us."
In Matthew 25:40, Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me." Reject your neighbor, and you reject Jesus! Does this mean that your good works will earn you salvation? No, not at all. As we saw earlier (Romans 8:13) all that we do, we do by the grace of God. Indeed we cannot even say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). So our good works are actually accomplished by God working through us.
For the Christian there is no excuse for serious deliberate sin. "Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful and He will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape that you may be able to endure it" (1 Corinthians 12:13). Also: "For this is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3). They are not burdensome because, once again, He enables us to obey them with His grace. As we are told in Hebrews 4:15-16, "For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses…Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."
>>76223236
Strong's seems good.
>>76223233
They have no need to be forgiven since they are guaranteed salvation.
If only St. Paul was as holy as these trendy, affluent, protestant TV watchers, maybe then he wouldn't have needed to >work out his salvation with fear and trembling.
>>76223362
In John 14:15-16 Jesus says: "If you love me you will keep my Commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Councilor, to be with you forever." In other words, you can keep the Commandments, because He is sending another Councilor (the Holy Spirit) who will give you the grace to accomplish it. This grace was the reason why Paul could say, "I can do all things in Him who strengthens me" (Philippians 4:13). Certainly avoiding serious sin is included in all things.
So a failure to do good works is not a failure to earn one's salvation, but a rejection of grace which is ultimately a denial of the power of the Holy Spirit, and that is the "unforgivable sin" (Mark 3:28). It is unforgivable because it is a rejection of Christ. Good works are not something in addition to faith, but the proof that faith exists. The good works in question do not constitute "works salvation" because they were not produced by something within the individual but were in fact accomplished by the grace of God, which is a gift. There is nothing to boast about but much to be thankful for.
Clement, the fourth Bishop of Rome, writing around the year 95, wrote about the connection between grace and works and the need for our cooperation with grace. He wrote, "Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self-controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words…Why was our father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith? … So we, having been called through His will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men" (1 Clement 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4).
>>76223124
The palagians infiltrated the Roman Catholic Church in the 500s, people did not have access to scripture to contest the church in teaching false doctrine. When the scripture was made available to everyone, we saw the church taught heretical doctrine, so we had to leave
>>76223417
>>76223196
As for the sacraments, they are occasions of grace and not rituals that must be performed to earn salvation. The grace received enables us to accept our salvation and to live the Christian life. This is reflected in Jesus' statement concerning the Eucharist in John 6:56. He said, "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him." It is only by the grace of God that we accept Christ in the first place and it is only by the grace of God that we remain in Him. This is what the Church calls Sanctifying Grace. Besides Sanctifying Grace, every sacrament produces Sacramental Grace. Sacramental grace is a special grace that helps in the fulfillment of the duties related to a particular sacrament. For example, in the sacrament of Matrimony, the Sacramental Grace received can enable the couple to be the husband and wife that God would have them be.
The sacraments were not Catholic inventions as some prefer to claim. They were instituted by Christ and can be found in Scripture:
Baptism – John 3:5, Matthew 28:18-19
Confirmation – Acts 8:14-17
Reconciliation / Confession – John 20:21-23
The Eucharist – Matthew 26:26-28, John 6:53-55
Matrimony – Matthew 19:5-6
Holy Orders – Titus 1:5
Sacrament of the Sick – James 5:14-15
>>76223405
On what authority does he teach and compose the Gospel with?
How are we to know this Bible to be accurate and true and not the others?
>>76223314
Hard to read tone in text fameroni. You should add more bant words.
Yup - Sunday talks are gr8. Thanks for the convo.
>>76222199
>literally ignoring every argument
this poster is not a Christian. he is not here for debate, he is an atheist troll. he is here to push the curious away... much much worse than any atheist spammer.
zero questions answered, every curious poster shamed... literally doing the work of satan as hard as he can. this must be some new trolling method that i havent seen before.
to anyone listening... Salvation requires only ONE thing... faith in Christ, the Lord and Savior. Any catholic who says it isnt, is lying with the intention of hurting the saved.
>>76223416
We are all of us sinners my friend. Christ commanded that people in His Church confess their sins to one another
So we do. This is invaluable to leading a pious life. Atonement. You have never confessed or followed the direct word of Christ.
You were led astray by false prophets but you can still come home to the true Church.
>>76223572
keep strawmanning
>>76223540
You don't need authority to put words on paper or talk to other people.
We don't.
>>76223700
What Church is the true Church?
>>76223147
I would say that believers are given a saving faith after God grants them a changed mind (Repentance), and after this, the person will do good works, not to maintain salvation, but because of their salvation, I do believe in false conversations and those will be the people who said lord lord
>>76223456
You left Christ's church to become DIY, Fly by the seat of your pants, anyone can perform Baptism or give Holy Communion.
And you did it without your leaders having been divinely inspired, meeting with Messengers of God or performing miralces.
They were false prophets.
>>76223196
>please if you have a bible verse showing that i must have eucharist,
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food, and my blood is real drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever" (John 6:53–58).
He is speaking literally.
>>76222978
paul was a man, i do not pray to men. salvation requires one thing, faith in Christ the Lord.
>heretic
looking through your posts, i do not see a single "curious" posting you have responded to in a positive manner. objectively you are trying to push these people away from the conversation and trying to steer the conversation towards anger and hatred.
what could be your motivation to keep people away from scripture, faith and salvation? who is guiding your actions here?
>>76223776
Those with an unbroken lineage back to Peter.
>>76222578
>Quantum superpositioning doesn't pose a problem for the idea of necessary truths.
>The fact that I'm not willing to say it *absolutely* does doesn't change the fact that we're using it and will likely keep doing so.
How do you feel about necessary vs absolute truths? Those two concepts/ ideas
How do you personally treat them?
>And it's the one most people seem to have the very least resistance to adopting.
I know right? It's amazing how "anti-faith" New Atheists manage to delude themselves into believing they or anyone can avoid all baseless assumptions
>>76223196
Read John 3:15-30 over and over until u get it
>>76223720
We need to know what preachers are from God and which are not. Can you explain which preachers, and which versions of Scripture are accurate?
It looks like you think somebody is supposed to hang their salvation on another man's opinion.
What makes certain opinions of God and others not of God?
>>76223776
Well then now you're talking about the Catholic Church.
>>76222768
wait, you really place priests over yourself? are they not men?
>>76223905
Only other baptized Christians can baptize others, and the lords supper is only for Baptized believers
>>76224037
case in point. Catholic making no attempt to help the curious... struggling to see how many curious people they can push away from Christ.
these are literally atheist trolls.
>>76223953
St. Paul said we need to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
On what grounds do you reject this, and why do you reject it?
>>76212278
*liberalism
>>76224193
So anyone on the street can perform a 'baptism' and it's valid to you.
That's all we needed to hear.
>>76224056
I'm saying that your church concealed the scripture for 1000 years and when we got a hold of it, we saw how non biblical the church was, so we left
>>76223986
thats a great one. i read it all the time.
did you have a bible verse that justifies the hatred and ungodly actions you and other catholics are showing?
i just want to know what justifies your anger and hatred for those who have faith and walk in the Lords path? there must be some reason other than satan... at least i want to belive you have altruistic intentions... it's getting harder and harder to take you seriously when all you have shown is hatred.
>>76224312
No they have to be a baptized believer
>>76223970
They're not really distinct.
I like deductive necessary truths immensely - they give me a sense of concreteness despite my doubts. All the more since I believe God is behind the order of them.
>I know right? It's amazing how "anti-faith" New Atheists manage to delude themselves into believing they or anyone can avoid all baseless assumptions
I know that feel. Boggles my mind sometimes. And in the vast majority of cases they always seem to be scientism worshipers.
>>76224487
I'm a Protestant
>>76224232
If you are called to Salvation then come home to Christ's Church, the Roman Catholic Church with an unbroken line back to Peter himself, whom Christ gave his Church to.
There is no mystery. Seek the Rite of Baptism and Confession. Be Saved.
You want us to entertain protestor Heresy. Why would we do that?
>>76224232
Your projecting your own malintent onto others.
How are these confused souls supposed to know which Church is the right one?
>>76217853
tradition matters
>>76224578
Palagian heretics
>>76223989
All preachers who are actual preachers are from God. If you're asking me how we might distinguish actual preachers from false ones I don't know. I'd recommend not following a preacher in the first place.
>It looks like you think somebody is supposed to hang their salvation on another man's opinion
That's the opposite of what I think actually.
The quality of being of God. Though I wouldn't call them an opinion - I'd call them existential absolutes.
>>76224667
>muh palagians
Was it the boogeymen bro?
If Protestantism is correct, what denomination should one join, and what BIble interpretation is the authentic interpretation?
>>76224758
Who gives you Communion then?
>>76224804
"None" and "Who knows" respectively.
>>76224880
So what is correct then?
>>76224787
No it's what happened to the Catholic Church, and you guys kept scripture from the laymen for a reason
>>76224852
It's just a ceremony (though one I like and is a good reminder). Anyone or no one.
>>76224949
Something is. Necessarily.
>>76224949
He is saying he is a loner Christian who doesn't go to Church, doesn't confess doesn't receive the Eucharist, doesn't worship with others.
Basically he talks to God all on his own. He is a faith of one.
>>76225039
When you do it, it is just a ceremony you are right.
>>76224508
>All the more since I believe God is behind the order of them.
See this is what I can't bring myself to believe
How could we know that the logic that we're doing (with deductive, inductive and (not really) abductive reasoning) is really doing its work in finding truth?
But even if so, with its absolutely strict rules of inference, how much of our faith can we put in the deductive method's ability to arrive at perfect truths?
>>76224804
I'm a reformed Baptist, But Associate Reformed Presbyterian is another good one, heck being a Methodist is better than what you are now
>>76225036
You claim to know the Truth, yet you conceal it from others.
Christ says in the Gospel to place your "candle" where others can see it, not behind a bushel.
What is the correct "version" of Christianity?
>>76225159
When you do it too. But you can believe whatever you like in that regard - your salvation doesn't impinge on how you regard a ceremony.
>>76223915
how does this relate to a eucharist ceremony, doesnt mention you have to establish a priesthood and super priest who must give it to you, bless it for you because only they are super godly...
this daily bread and blessing is done daily (not weekly) by protestants who have faith... they literally eat and drink everyday and bless it... does this mean protestants are more likely to have salvation because their "eucharist" happens more often? i dont judge.
the scripture is fulfilled, yet not in the way that suits you... yet it is still there even though you dont accept it. priests are men, holy see is a man... i'd rather bless my own bread and drink in humble and sincere prayer.
>>76225036
Gonna need some sources on these nefarious palagians.
What convinced you that reptiles, I mean paladins, I mean the pharisees, er.... whoever have taken over the Roman church?
>>76225220
I didn't ask what you were? I asked what is the one faith, one flock, and one shepherd Christ speaks of in the Gospel, you just named three.
>>76224508
>I know that feel. Boggles my mind sometimes. And in the vast majority of cases they always seem to be scientism worshipers.
Scientism is the new positivism m9. Mark my words
>>76225229
I would say Reformed Baptist is most accurate, but until you are Saved, it doesn't matter what church you go to
>>76225284
We have respect and reverence for the Chapel of our Lord it's very true.
So, for you, your 'baptism' is just another ceremony that doesn't actually do anything.
In fact prayer, for you, must also be merely a gesture. Good to know.
>>76223000
you have demonstrated, only thing you have demonstrated, is your true and undying hatred for those who have salvation and faith in Christ.
you are fighting the saved. how does this give you pleasure to fight Christians doing the Lords work by attending to the curious?
I am requesting a picture of your bible ... i dont believe you are anythign other than an atheist troll.
>>76224804
>Protestantism is correct
It's not.
>>76225434
Most accurate? What do you mean by this?
>>76225192
>and (not really) abductive reasoning
Heh.
I don't hold that we can *know*, but I tend to think along the lines of Descartes on this matter too. If we can't even rely on basic logic, God would be deceiving us. In an incredibly powerful and descriptively cruel way. And we believe God is Truthful, so we have reason to believe He wouldn't do such a thing.
I don't think that's incredibly powerful reasoning, but it is a way to think about it, and it's how I've approached the topic for some years now.
>>76225404
Lord have mercy.
>>76225296
There was a major issue between Augustine and Palagius in the 4th century, Augustine won out, but over time Palagius sympathizes became the Bishop of Rome.
Why did so many people die for translating the Bible into English. Tyndale was martyred for it
>>76225475
That's fine. Actual baptism is in the Holy Spirit. The water and everything is just symbolic. It's not *bad* symbolism or ceremony - I think it's a way of worship that does indeed give glory to God. But it's not the essence of it.
Prayer is worship.
>>76225391
The ones who follow Jesus Christ by Faith alone, denomination does not matter
>>76224578
you speak to those with salvation, faith, and love with hatred and contempt.
i only ask that you recognize the hatred in your heart at the moment. ask yourself why you are attacking those Christian brothers, what is motivating you to attack the Christian faith?
>>76224608
the Christ of the bible... i dont follow your logic... well sort of... i think you are implying that protestants and anyone not in your club cannot understand the Bible and believe in Christ without the help of a super smart priest and therefore cannot attain salvation.
it just really saddens me that you attack brothers in Christ... ask yourself who is motivating you in attacking Christians?
>>76225748
No, men died because they tried to impose themselves onto Sacred Scripture, and deface the Word of God with their fallen opinions.
Seems to me one who loves the Word of God would defend it against pompous vandals.
>>76225604
Most consistent with the Bible
![IMG_0092[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/EwmSd9C.png "IMG 0092[1]")
