http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36443512
What thinketh you of this /pol/?
What startles me is the money on offer here. That's a monthly salary for a lot of people, not just a few quid guaranteed a month for every person in the land.
Yes to a basic income.
Yes to shutting the borders entirely, otherwise it simply won't work.
>>76066068
>2.5k $ basic income
>inb4 Bernie says America should also do this when it goes through
Basic income isn't that hard to do in a country that small and homogeneous.
They are just trying to introduce the idea/concept for now. That's all there is to it.
Most referendums here are a way for political parties to abuse the democratic instruments of the people to impose their ideals as if they are supported by the populace.
>>76066068
Honestly, i think a basic income with other benefit programs removed will work. People with money will either invest or spend it. making business better. Those with less money will of course use it to have an easier life which means spending it. Gotta keep that money local and flowing.
Will work in switzerland because they have a homogenous nation
>>76066068
Sooo... Switzerland will become the new migrant haven now? Gotta get them juicy gibsmedats.
>>76066068
communism returns in switzerland
>>76066297
>t. commie economist
No, it wouldn't, especially not in diverse countries.
You lower the stimulus to work and the stimulus for contributors and lower the general wealth like a downward spiral. You cannot base a system on non-contributors - never ever.
>>76066068
>Lets remove all incentive to work if you're okay with a living wage, and piss off everyone that doesn't
wow what could possibly go wrong
>>76066068
>Labour is being automated...
>SO GIB GIB GIB!
>>76066068
>implying this will get accepted
we are not commies
>>76066068
They've done this before no?
>>76066571
What's your alternative?
>>76066474
agree.
hat nicht direkt was mit dem bedingungslosen Grundeinkommen zu tun, dennoch sehr interessant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5IG2n_Sox8
>>76066675
>>What's your alternative?
>>76066528
You could be left without a means of survival once automation takes over.
It may work in Switzerland of all places, but it's a horrible idea nonetheless.
It's a bit early but I think it'll be a necessity in 40 years time
>>76066430
We already are
>>76066434
We have never been communists, we build 1000's of km of bunkers in the alps to eventualy stop the communists.
>>76066528
I hope it won't pass by a margin soooo high nobody will try it again for 100 years.
But the leftists are sneaky, they present it like a minimum salary (like the SMIC in France), and the tv speaks like it's a minimum salary.
In fact it's an amount of money you are given if you don't make it by other means, it's a catastrophe because a lot of people are making less than 4k a month and a 2.8k guaranteed revenue is a no-brainer, you just stop working.
I mean, if I made 3.5k a month by working 45h per week and 4 weeks of vacation per year I'd just take the 2.8k for doing nothing, use our free universities to get a good major and come back when I can have a 10k salary. The issue with that is, we can't all be touching ourselves in the third sector, we need low qualif jobs, and a lot of people would just do nothing and drink/smoke instead of working...
A literal welfare state
>>76066815
You don't stop drop and roll before you catch fire, moron. If/When automation reaches that point we can start discussing ways to compensate for the lack of menial labor, right now we should focus on maximizing employment.
Could work with white people and maybe east asians but not with the rest of the world
>nobody goes to work because they still get money
>economy gets fucked over due to lack of workers
>continuing to pay basic income leads to poverty
how to ruin your country in a decade
Won't prices increase by giving everyone a 'basic income'?
>>76066068
Automatization and digitalization of western economies will decrease the amount of jobs available for the vast majority. Japan has understood this for a long time and this is why they are extremely anti-immigration since they don't see the need to import massive amounts of cheap labor and social problems with them just to become unemployed in the near future.
America and Europe on the other hand are near sighted on this issue. Partly or rather mostly because our economists and politicians aren't very bright tech-wise.
>>76067107
Productive people will go to work who will have a choice of legit motivated people who want to do shit.
Productivity will go through the roof if we are finally able to get rid of all the bullshit jobs
>>76066112
this or atleast letting people in for there profession
>>76066430
>Switzerland will become the new migrant haven now?
I highly doubt migrants will be entitled to it.
More likely migrants will have to work for very low wages and pay shitloads of taxes to fund the program.
>>76066112
This desu. And deport all non-whites
>>76066982
>focus on maximizing employment.
No, around 5% unemployment is optimal.
UBC will be inevitable once automation becomes large enough but introducing it now wouldn't work unless you plan on some heavy duty automation in the future
>initiate basic income for all citizens
>all non-citizens must work, if not are forced to work or exiled
>non-citizens can become citizens after 25 years
>non-citizens children are classed as half-citizens and must also work but only half the time
Basically create a system that enables immigration which actually benefits the current population.
>>76066112
>shutting the borders entirely, otherwise it simply won't work.
Just don't give basic income to illegals.
They will find it extremely hard surviving in a country where everybody around them has basic income.
Illegal wants to work for $3 an hour?
Someone with basic income can worth for $2 an hour because his rent is already payed.
>>76066950
Exactly. There's no incentive to work. Workers will look to their countrymen and see they're making the same amount in wages as they would working for over half a month, and wonder: 'Why even work?'
Honestly, the rest of a typical workers wages can be earned with MARGINALLY less work doing menial shit online for payment.
>BUT IF THERE'S A UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME THEN NOBODY WILL WANT TO WORK
WOW IT'S ALMOST AS IF A LABOUR SHORTAGE WILL DRIVE PRICE UP UNTIL SUPPLY AND DEMAND EQUILIBRATE AGAIN
ROUTINE MARKET ADJUSTMENTS THAT HAPPEN EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY ARE L I T E R A L L Y THE END OF LIFE ON EARTH AS WE KNOW IT.
>>76067448
>non-citizens can become citizens after 25 years
WHYYYYYYYYYYYY??????????
>>76066068
>this thread again
you need 100k signatures to get a referendum in Switzerland
NO important party is supporting the basic income, it's going to fail with <10% of votes
>>76066202
Yes it is. Switzerland is already the most expensive country on earth and with basic income everything's going to get even more expensive. What's going to happen is that all the mountain Jews are going to take their monthly allowance and move to a cheaper country. It's going to be a huge money drain. Basic income is built on the idea that people are going to spend their money in their own country to stimulate the economy.
>>76066068
Speaking of referendum, what are you guy's though on the new law on asylum seekers?
I can't quite figure out if it'll lead to more or less "refugees"
>>76067597
NEIN
>>76066297
Imagine how many drug addicts and lazy neets are going to have free money? What the fuck do they spend their cash on? Drugs, fast food, and ugly slovenian women on chaturbate.
The only immediate return the local people would see is on fast food purchases. But by and large, most of that profit goes to corporate, which subsequently gets spread out amongst executives and shareholders.
The average person has proven time and time again, that they have an incredibly high bias towards frivolous spending. They don't make sound/prudent investments.
Why is it basketball americans are willing to spend gross amounts of money on running shoes, yet rarely, if ever invest in purchasing books. You know, books. Something that they can read, which subsequently makes them smarter, which then they start making better life choices, leading to better employment and an overall improvement in their quality of life.
>>76067521
So it's basically just a petition the government gets to veto but has to bring up.
>>76067597
Haven't heard of this, got any more details?
>>76066950
It's a bandaid to try and fix a looming problem with capitalist economies: All the money is sequestering in the hands of corporations, banks, etc. and the average person is getting less and less, and when the average person has little money to spend, they don't spend it on much.
In other words, the west is in a longstanding recession/depression with the root cause being stagnation of the economy because money isn't actually moving around, it's just being captured at the top.
Basic Income takes more money via taxes from the rich and corporations due to:
A. Extremely high income (corporations)
B. Progressive taxation (rich people)
While the unwashed masses largely have low income and lower taxation, and thus benefit more from the government GBI.
Part of the reason this is becoming necessary is simply due to the decoupling of human labour requirements involved in production. Within the century we will have production chains with virtually no human input whatsoever. That'll dramatically reduce costs on production to basically nothing, but creates a problem where the working class have to work to survive, but there is no work to actually be done.
A basic income would solve this situation and establish an economy where resource allocation is determined by the public at large, while changing day to day life very little.
Perhaps there are other solutions to the problem. The one I most often see shouted around here is, "kill all the unemployed". I'm sure that'll work out beautifully and won't result in the destruction of civil society as we know it nor cause any sort of serious strife or civil war.
>>76067597
Let us have a look
I can't wait for UBI... I hate work.
>>76067639
>Imagine how many drug addicts and lazy neets are going to have free money?
They already get it via traditional welfare. Nothing changes to them while the rest of the country gets lower administrative costs.
>>76067552
half of them already live outside of the country as is.
this is going to destroy their country.
good riddance. let europe and america burn, and let the boomers who destryed the world die the most painful death possible
>>76066068
>What startles me is the money on offer here.
Switzerland is relatively expensive to live in by PPP, that money isn't as much as you'd think.
Also I would love it.
>>76067719
>Perhaps there are other solutions to the problem. The one I most often see shouted around here is, "kill all the unemployed". I'm sure that'll work out beautifully and won't result in the destruction of civil society as we know it nor cause any sort of serious strife or civil war.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_4J4uor3JE
>>76067552
They will all spend their money here. Most are doing this already since they pay the halfth.
>>76067499
>>76066950
People will work because they will want to consume more.
By reforming low-skilled McJobs into flexible-marketed temp jobs, people content largely to live on basic income can work a few hours a week at McDonalds to supplement their BI when they want to buy 3 new MacBooks. Given there's already a labour surplus, without factoring skill, this isn't going to lead to a labour crisis in the unskilled sector. Immigrants are the primary concern.
On a similar note. Given that a huge amount of manual labor is set to obsolete within a few years, what will Europe do with its masses of uneducated, unemployed and unskilled refugees who can't find work?
>>76067719
A FUCKING LEAF
>>76067448
The whole point of basic income is to give money to people who aren't working.
The fundamental assumption is that they aren't working because automation has put them out of a job - and for the most part this is actually true, and becoming more true as time goes on.
>>76067482
This is a good point. With a basic income we can actually remove minimum wages, which would allow the average citizen to compete for work at prices that illegals simply cannot match. It should actually help put an end to the mass immigration we're experiencing, as the illegals and immigrants are a net drain on economies and the corporations can still get their 'slave' labour at cheap prices.
It would have to be combined with extremely tight corporate taxation laws so they can't just offshore all their money, though. Since corporations will end up footing most of the bill for the guaranteed basic income.
Sort of a backdoor way to get corporations to pay fair wages.
>>76067913
interracial breeding grounds
>>76067704
no it's a constitutional amendment but
i) 50% of the overall people need to approve
ii) in at least 50% of the cantons (((states))) the local populace needs to approve by 50% or higher each.
although we get to vote on these "initiatives" about four times a year, the people are generally extremely sceptical. all in all, less than twenty amendments have been successfull since the 1890ies
>>76067975
Ohh, so tolerant.
>>76067913
A lot of hot, steamy, interracial sex
>>76067719
Hi Trudeau, you sure seem to know a lot about economy. Welcome to /pol/
>>76067909
BI distorts pricing signals. there's no more natural growth of the money supply, so consumptive sectors are lockd in a zero sum game for revenue with medical, techn, etc.
it WILL destroy society. anyone good enough at math can see that.
>>76067913
europe has deindustrialized. the first dark factories are in china and japan. they lack the capital base to build industrial machines with 10 year profit horizons. europew on't automate. they'll go into debt, and collapse.
they don't have adequate central planning mechanisms capable of budgeting.
>>76066068
marxist bullshit, will never work
>>76066112
spotted the NEET faggot
>>76068103
not an arguement
>>76068216
spotted the sinai insurgency
>>76067704
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_initiative_(Switzerland)
>The federal popular initiative (German: Eidgenössische Volksinitiative, French: Initiative populaire fédérale, Italian: Iniziativa popolare federale) is an instrument of direct democracy in Switzerland. It allows citizens to propose changes to the Swiss Federal Constitution. A votation will be organised for every modification that collected 100,000 valid signatures in 18 months.
They have real democracy
>>76068156
>BI distorts pricing signals. there's no more natural growth of the money supply
Because printing out money whenever you need a stimulus and painting over the cracks later is so natural, right?
There's a good reason we crash out the economy every decade.
And with BI people will start buying shit, and we might even have a return to the old renaissance style neet philopsper thing. Once we cull the weak, anyway.
>>76068276
see
>>76067552
Basic income can never ever work under any circumstances. I can refute every argument you try to make. So far you've made none.
>>76066068
I hope thye vote yes jsut so i can enjoy watching the flood of immigrants move from calais to their border.
>>76068394
>Basic income can never ever work under any circumstances.
BI is equivalent to tax breaks for companies, but for the unemployed.
Go.
>>76067508
A shortage of overpriced labor will increase its demand as much as a shortage of steamy turds.
Companies will just go bankrupt
>>76068324
Direct Democracy is the purest form of Democracy.
It's also fucking stupid and why they have specifics programs based around it rather than it as a whole.
>>76068449
No it's not, it's not even close. wtf are you talking about?
UBI works, but you have to control immigration first or you will become insolvent.
>>76068456
>but the companies can just live off from basic income
:^)
Socialism is 100% fine: but ONLY in racially/culturally homogeneous countries.
I feel like it should have a name, though. Some sort of...socialist nationalism?
>>76066068
It just means prices will increase because businesses know everyone has x amount of money as a baseline. Certainly the local economics will adapt to the new situation. And you will still need to work if you want any nice things aside from the basic stuff that everyone has.
>>76068340
qe also distorts pricing, but most of the money still ends up going to semi-productive industry in some capacity or another.
BI does two things wrong:
1. no consumption floor
2. no savings
3. productive investment can't be derived from above savings because citizens spend ALL money, and ALL their money comes from tax revenue. it's central allocation
4. distributive power of currency doesn't belong to those with market information (e.g. knowledge of productive industry
5. ZERO SUM MONEY SUPPLY: kim kardashian implants will make more money than cancer research. that's bad
if you don't recognize the problems with all this then so be it. but BI is retarded, and you are retarded, and should at least have the modesty to recognize you don't understand this, and step down
>>76068475
>why they have specifics programs based around it rather than it as a whole.
A couple of the smallest Cantons don't even have a parliament/congress equivalent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsgemeinde
>Eligible citizens of the Canton or district meet on a certain day in the open air to decide on a specific issues. Voting is accomplished by those in favor of a motion raising their hands
>>76066068
>Population = 8.081 million x $2,554
= $247,666,488,000(USD) a year..
>GDP = 685.4 billion USD
How is this sustainable? Where is that money coming from and if no one is obliged to work.. what happens when everyone stops working? Surely it will collapse.
>>76068628
I'm having trouble thinking of a worse possible system.
they've survived by sheer luck
>>76068566
Basic income is not the same as national socialism. In national socialism, first of all, you're free from the Jewish banking parasites. You have a currency that's backed by labor and the only way to get your neetbux is to do some labor.
>>76068707
In Switzerland they empty truckloads of gold coins onto the pavement so that people can roll around in it like a ballpit. The eternal mountainjew will find a way!
>what happens when everyone stops working
Won't happen.
>>76068628
How can they be so civilized and together so as to make that wor-
>Over 88% White
ah.
>>76066297
That reminds me of the Paddy's cash episode of its always sunny, I think they kept calling it a self sustaining economy
>>76068753
Germany's economy was successful because they kicked the jews out and switched to international barter, it had little to do with their currency.
>>76066068
>will become the first country to hold a referendum on basic income
That's like the third time we're holding a referendum on this.
Who will work in the sewers in a country with with basic income?
>>76068530
Okay, your refutation was no.
Not an argument.
Companies can avoid paying taxes.
Allowing normal people a windfall is the same thing except they should spend in the same country, driving up demand.
>>76066068
I don't see how it could even work at that high of a basic income, they will have to spend over 250 billion USD on the program and their national GDP is less than 500 billion USD, you would basically have to nationalize all industries and go full gommunist to pay for it
>>76068935
Are you talking about that Jewish Friedman crap? Negative income tax?
>>76068845
In Glarus and Appenzell where this happens it's almost certainly 100% white.
>>76068732
It seems to work on a small scale and the people want to keep it.
>>76068929
German migrants
What bullshit.
it will NEVER EVER get through.
it's not meant to either, this is simply a way of introducing the concept to the general populace.
>>76066068
what i dont get is who will pay for it? You need tax payers to pay for it and for that you need workers. With this youll have no workers, why would anyone get up to scrub toilets when they get this? why would i catch the train at 6am and freeze my arse off like i do currently when i can just collect this, play videogames and smoke weed all day?
Someone please explain this to a dumbcunt like myself
>>76069044
Make Switzerland Habsburg again
>>76068890
And how are goods produced if not by labor?
Germany's economy was backed by labor and our economy is backed by parasitism
>>76069057
>swiss
>standard German
you're not too smart, aren't you, Bernd?
>>76066068
It's a stupid idea really, and mathematically impossible if you give the citizens any sort of substantial payment.
>>76068602
>no consumption floor
what?
>no savings
What? You know saving is a bad thing right now? Why do you think negative interest is happening?
Plus, it's baseless. Why can't you save BI? It's about as likely as anyone else saving, and many people don't.
>roductive investment can't be derived from above savings because citizens spend ALL money, and ALL their money comes from tax revenue. it's central allocation
Yes, yes it is. But that's not a bad thing and money flowing is great. If everyone was rich and not spending, everything would collapse.
>distributive power of currency doesn't belong to those with market information
Clarify this.
>kim kardashian implants will make more money than cancer research
Em... no? Not anymore then is already the case.
Can you stop being a dipshit?
>>76066365
>Switzerland
>country with 4 different official languages
>fucktons of muslim immigrants
>homogeneous nation
>>76068983
we've seen stupider things happen
>>76069033
won't last. they have tons of albanians and soon, niggers and sandies.
also their new generations are stupid and weak.
was nice knowing ya, ch. have fun being dead
>>76066068
>2,500 a month just to exist
What's the point in living then, the incentive to any child to grow up to be something important like a brewer, or doctor, or chemist. What a shitty idea.
![negprogtax[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/kgOTPUT.png "negprogtax[1].png")
>>76069096
a progressive negative income tax could work
>>76069028
Eh, sure, close enough.
>>76069093
you act like the introduction of an idea is some harmless thing
>>76066068
10 years from now leftists in our country would be saying "if Switzerland can have basic income why can't we?" and we'll get Bernie 2.0
>>76069130
Improve it if you're so inclined, you autistic faggot.
It will never be accepted.
It's kind of sad because it could be useful for young people that want to start their own businesses but are afraid of the risks since absolutely no one funds our startups currently. Also it would make our obligatory health insurance less of a burden/pain in the ass.
Of course it would be abused by everyone else.
>>76067211
Hahahaha if you think I'm climbing through a 65 degree roof in the middle of summer to pay for some dumb cunts basic income you're kidding yourself
my family has about 60 acres of good land and fresh water running through it, I'd rather plant potatoes than have 90% of my earnings taxed
>>76067909
You don't understand, if you work at mcshit 10 hours it won't buy your macbook, it will be useless because the basic revenue is not due, it's a compensation if you don't make that much.
You don't give 3k per inhabitant, you give xk to people not making 3k so that in total they have 3k. It means if i make 3.2k and this passes I don't have 6.2k, I still have 3.2k but if I go from 45h per week to 0 i lose only 0.2k.
>>76069187
Because 2500 isnt that much
>>76069221
this is the future though. in a couple of generations a big junk of unqualified labor will become useless due to mechanization.
as long as you always have an incentive to work ( as seen here >>76069194) the concept would work out.
>>76068103
zip it sweden you have no right
>>76069194
Probably the best idea. The best part of that example is that there are no brackets to disincentivize earning more.
>>76069194
what differentiates this from a universal basic income? both will give me income for doing nothing should i choose it
Though i will admit these two systems are better than the current welfare system where you lose more in benefits than you gain in income resulting in no incentive to ever get off the stuff
>>76069194
That's pretty much what it is
>>76066068
>neetbucks for everyone
>robots come out of the woodworks nationwide
topkek
>>76069221
It is because when have facts and common sense ever played a role in politics?
>>76069150
ireland, can you read a basic econ textbook before acting like you know something, you fuckhead
money is made by efficiency. companies that are more efficient, make more money. investors make money by being smart, and CHOOSING companies that are efficient, and giving them more money than they have in pure profits so that they can be MORE efficient than otherwise.
THIS is why capitalism works. THIS is why central allocation is ALWAYS poorer.
by artificially handing money to people who didn't earn it, they spend on stupid shit that's unnecessary (why welfare fails) and then the money is held by companies that don't fundamentally offer EFFICIENCY. when LESS money gets into the hands of investors, there is LESS investment in efficient industry.
ECON101 dipshit.
>>76069366
If you want to do nothing then that is up to you, but I expect you'd be depressed and bored.
>>76067597
Wend meh flüchtling wotsch denn stemmsch ja
>>76069343
If basic income is conditional, it's not basic income.
If you're making say - 10k, and the basic income is 10k, you should be getting 10k extra taking your total to 20k. Otherwise the proposal isn't really basic income at all.
>>76068816
Why not? I'm not poor but what about those min. wage workers who hate their jobs, why wouldn't they quit?
>>76069343
Then you're not implementing a guaranteed basic income but some other sort of welfare.
>>76069096
The idea is make everyone poor so they vote left.
>>76069339
you're an idiot. there is NO good side to this plan. the fact you even think there's a good side is proof your country is fucked.
blind leading the blind
Weren't they going to trial this in Utrecht and Finland? It already failed in trials in Canada as most people just quit their jobs and watched the money roll in. There'll be a big increase in part-time employment and massive reduction in full-time. Hopefully the Swiss are smarter than to throw away the great country they've made for themselves with commie econemic schemes.
>>76068340
>we might even have a return to the old renaissance style neet philopsper thing
Nope. It just means there will be a certain percentage of population unironically living a dead-end NEET existence until death because the light never goes on for them to start to aspire and strive for something. They won't be remarkable philosophers or artists. They'll spend their life playing video games, fighting depression, and complaining about the opposite sex. Then death. You see, any achievement requires aspiring and striving. The vast majority of NEETs are by nature the opposite of that, and that's precisely why they are NEETs. They are incapable of striving, for one reason or another. I'm sure they rate themselves as Renaissance philosophers, but in reality they are just weak and incompetent people who can't get anything done.
>>76069447
Why do you think having basic income money suddenly makes people worse at buying things?
What's different between the basic income and the money they have right now that suddenly turns them into retards when they aren't otherwise?
>>76069366
you can do nothing and get 2.5k per month and lead a save yet very basic life.
the progressive tax ensures that you always have an incentive to work, because it is in man's nature to want more.
>>76069464
i probably would be and end up pursuing further studies for fun.
What i dont understand is how this will be funded when half the nation quits their jobs to spend their time relaxing and sleeping. I know such a lifestyle isnt desirable to you or I but i think you underestimate just how many people would just drop out of society to relax all day
>>76069339
Riddle me this, smartie: In a world with basic income, in which income tax becomes impossible (I don't believe the memes), who will finance the state that hands out the basic income to begin with?
>>76069471
ned wörkli...es gad ja drum de ganz prozess z beschleunige ond d ie illegale schneller uuszschaffe
>>76069584
ill go watch some friedman videos on negative income tax and report back friend
>>76069553
>Nope. It just means there will be a certain percentage of population unironically living a dead-end NEET existence until death because the light never goes on for them to start to aspire and strive for something. They won't be remarkable philosophers or artists. They'll spend their life playing video games, fighting depression, and complaining about the opposite sex. Then death. You see, any achievement requires aspiring and striving. The vast majority of NEETs are by nature the opposite of that, and that's precisely why they are NEETs. They are incapable of striving, for one reason or another.
That's basically the entire human population, yet they all still work.
>>76069584
What impact wiil that have on black labour?
>>76066068
>What thinketh you of this /pol/?
I think a couple million morons will learn first-hand what 'inflation' means.
>>76069356
see my earlier posts. europe is DEmechanizing, in fact. there is less automation in europe than htere was 20 years ago.
further, economies don't work because "money goes around." that's the multiplier or helicopter money idea, which has failed. economies work because THINGS that work enjoy the ability to get things done VIA money. when you give EVERYBODY equal ability to 'get things done' then bad ideas have as much power as good ones.
it WONT work.
>>76067482
>Illegal wants to work for $3 an hour?
>Someone with basic income can worth for $2
So they'll work for 1$. Living like rats in shithole.
And/Or rob citizen who have money. Wealth make a country attractive, even if it's not yours.
Just try hard not let them in first.
>>76069602
but you probably can't just quit your job and entertain the same lifestyle as before with only 2.5k per month, assuming you're not a neet
How do you pay for this?
>>76069447
>money is made by efficiency. companies that are more efficient, make more money. investors make money by being smart, and CHOOSING companies that are efficient,
We literally bailed out masses of inefficent banks for fucking up.
Stop being a shithead.
>THIS is why capitalism works.
I JUST PROVED WE'RE NOT CAPITALIST
> they spend on stupid shit that's unnecessary
How the fuck do you think this? Nobody does this. Or everyone does it. Whichever you want to pick.
People buy food first, and then buy other shit. It's how the world works. Do you even go outside anymore? Why do you think pubs and restaurants exist? They're the definition of wasteful but still an industry.
Please, try harder. Stop projecting the pretend american dream.
>>76068732
No, we survived better than our neighbours because of it.
When politics do things in their own interests the people just says no. And we don't have a king like in France or the US that does whatever the fuck he wants and when the senate says no he has a bullshit law or constitutional article to still do what he wants.
If you kill our council (we don't have a president, we have a council), all 7 of them, it will change jack shit and 7 more will get elected. If you kill the kings of france and the US the countries are devastated and inoperant for a few months.
>>76066068
AGAIN?! I remember this being discussed years ago and all the Medpacks on /pol/ kept saying it failed.
>>76069698
>same lifestyle
most definitely not but an much less lavish lifestyle in exchange for not scrubbing toilets all day? Most definitely.
>>76069647
Oh gott, das glaubsch ned wörkli oder?
Erstens e mol, esch d'SP deför. D'SP för weniger flüchtling? Sött scho mol verdächtig si.
Im moment isches eso, dases ide Ufnahmezentre staut, mer cha ned meh flöchtling ufneh wöll die voll send. Wenn Verfahre beschleunigt werde, chamer ede gliche ziit meh Verfahre durchführe, das heisst mer cha meh Flüchtling ufneh.
Und wie du sicher weisch werde öber 70% flüchtling ufgno womer ned cha abschiebe.
Denn chont no das mitem Gratisawalt dezue, wos sowieso jede bes vor de Europäisch Grichtshof werd witerzieh.
>>76069584
>it is in man's nature to want more.
And once they realize that in order to get more they just need to vote a raise of the ubi?
>>76069656
would love to hear your opinion on it
>>76068890
> it had little to do with their currency
It had everything to do with their currency and monetary policies.
>>76069044
Nein.
>>76066068
In Norway, you can already get a little under $2000 a month in welfare/unemployment money. They money is calculated based on how much you earned before, so if you earned a lot, you'll get more. I might be mistaken, but I think it guarantees you 66% of your previous income.
Show us the mathematics.
Every time UBI is mooted, they never, ever show us the mathematics of where the money is going to come from?
Half a dozen academic studies, several books now, no mathematics.
It's almost as if there isn't anything backing this idea up at all?
>>76069473
But the idea of flat basic income is that you claim more in tax than you gave out to the high-earner. What does it matter whether it's done through a negative income tax?
>>76069474
Quit your shit job and learn programming or something.
>>76069603
Corporations, for the most part.
There'll have to be tax law changes to prevent them trying to just offshore all their money (should be implemented anyways desu)
but basically, the corporations are the only ones with any money left to take to begin with, so it's either take it and redistribute it around the economy to keep the economy functioning, or just let it all collapse as corporate jews refuse to pay their employees but suddenly find they can't sell any goods because nobody else is paying their employees either, and now everyone's customers lack money to spend on any of the goods or services being offered.
Basically it's a way of saving corporations and the economy at large from their own wanton greed.
>>76069917
>quit your shit job
>learn programming
heh
Why do the swiss hate us so much :'(
>>76069729
Please stop embarrassing my country.
>>76069716
You can't, to give every single person in America 10K a year would cost 3 trillion dollars
>>76069899
We have that exact system in Sweden too
>>76066068
What the god damn nigger fuck?
I created this exact same thread 4 hours before this britcuck.
No replies.
Thou hast to be shitting me.
NEETs are truly innovators.
>>76069562
not making fun of you, just trying to get a sense of if you guys are in college, and if you're in stem of humanities if you are?
1. money supply through jobs is deterined by markets. it expands when production meets human needs and contracts when it's being wasted. these are natural market signals. if we live in lala land like venezuela, we just keep giving things to people because "they need it" and shit breaks. it's THAT simple.
further, societal models can be built around "trying to do shit better" or "Stopping bad people from doing bad shit." capitalism is the former. saddam's iraq was the latter. UBI does NEITHER. UBI gives bad people the power to do WORSE shit. niggers with guns bought with welfare money in my country is a PERFECT examle
>>76069969
Hah, I know.
>>76069729
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics
>>76068707
Every time I run this BI calculation for my shit tier country it comes out that you will get shitty payments every month by redistributing 1/3 of the gdp. Only way for this to work is to eliminate every other government activity like education Healthcare defense (kek) pensions etc. It will be a disaster without focusing funds in expensive shit like surgery so everybody will turn to insurance. Not gonna work
>>76069669
I like you russia. I'm sorry about obama. I hope trump is nicer to you guys.
>>76069959
>Corporations
Why should they? What's in it for htem?
>>76069907
You can't mathematics economy, there are far too many variables. We've learned from our mistakes
>>76069980
Ok, so it is just a master plan to crash the economy. Epic.
>leftist economics
Also the muh automation argument might be valid in 50-100 but it sure as fuck isn't valid today.
>>76069972
Because we belittle them for their bullshitonomics
>>76069765
that means you depend on having quality people.
I regret to inform you, you no longer have quality people. which is why such a stupid proposition is even being voted on.
here's the next one: "niggers have rights." still funny to you?
The spaniard far left party called PODEMOS (we can) proposed this. They rectified because no one took them seriously.
This Switzerland referendum is a joke that noone would vote for because mountain jews arr intelligent enough to know how this would affect their pretty libertarian economy.
Basic Income is universally wrong. The malibu dudeweedlmao who spends all the day surfing the beaches, would get paid for doing nothing while working people spends time and suffering for rent distribution. This is not fair. This is not morally fair.
>>76070024
>>76067597
Then we'll do it again next year. At least this gets the ball rolling on discussing the topic.
With automation happening and ever increasing populations there won't be jobs for everyone. So what does /pol/ prefer. UBI or job guarantee schemes?
>>76069843
so en scheiss....es werded nor öppe 23 prozent agno und au nur mit b-bewelligung
>>76069907
>Every time UBI is mooted, they never, ever show us the mathematics of where the money is going to come from?
If current financial system is kept it is going to replace welfare programs and would cost around the same. There was a study done that someone posted a few months ago I'll try to find it.
The idea is that it is cheaper and fairer to just give everyone the same amount of money rather than find yourself with some people becoming very good at abusing welfare and the bureaucratic system in place to receive lets say 5k$ a month and some starving on the streets because they either feel guilty about using welfare or just don't know how it works.
>>76069162
Homogenous in a different way.
We are generaly all "rich" (big middle-upper class), the median salary is >6k, we are all educated and we are all patriotic.
The immigration issue is not the importation of foreign ethnicities and languages, as you demonstrated we can deal with thoses, the issue is that we import lower educated people with no incentive to defend our values. So the only thing we have in common is the salary and it gets lower and lower, we no longer defend the same goals, no longer have the same intelligence and education and they don't expect to build a great nation, they just want to profit from it.
>>76069907
it's like when president nigger said obamacare wouldn't make insurance costs go up
it's a LIE
anyon with basic math skills could do a basic risk pool calculation and show obamacare MUST make rates go up
>>76070135
is that why we're so much better off in every regard than you?
>>76066068
I can't tell if this is a step towards communism, ancap or both.
>>76069855
Ive seen his videos on them before, was good to have a quick refresh in my mind.
Again, i agree that the negative income tax system is probably infinitely superior to the current welfare system in that it incentivizes work and does strip you of 10X benefits when you only make 5X. This issue i have with it is again, if it is a guaranteed income of eg 10k like your previous chart, just how many in society will drop out and become permanent welfare leeches, content to live off that. I know we have welfare leeches now but such a system would be like saying here, have a guaranteed income instead of jumping through all these rings to get it and then plenty more to stay on it.
I have a lot less faith in my fellow man than others do. I would like to think that we as people will always strive for more and not be content with such a pittance but having grown up the child to immigrant parents and seen other families content to live in squalor as long as its free i really am skeptical.
Can i propose something better? probably not
>>76069975
Not
An
Argument
>>76070239
No, that would be your offshore profiteering.
>>76070184
>So what does /pol/ prefer. UBI or job guarantee schemes?
Conscript people who can't find work into the army.
>>76069843
Dä het rächt.
>>76069647
Wenn 70% ufgno wärde, und somit nomau die azahl neui flüchtlinge cha behandlet wärde, eifach imne schneuere intervall, was gloubsch, wärde me oder weniger ufgno? Usserdäm wird d schwiz när dr ruef ha, das me dert schnäu inechunt, wases o nid besser macht. När si da natürlech no d "Plangenehmigungsverfahren"...
>>76066068
Basic income proposals are the final acts of a government preparing to jump ship. Ensure a guaranteed base of economically illiterate voters, and pad their wallets with enough soon-to-be-worthless currency long enough to convert the wealthy's reserves of cash and metals into a currency with a future. Finally, internationalist plants will rise up to convince the failed economy that the only way to recover any semblance of former life and prosperity is to submit to globalist, collectivist regulations.
Not surprising that Switzerland is a non-EU state. Keep an eye on the gold.
>>76067508
but then wouldnt the price of everything go up making the basic income almost useless?
t. healthcare worker without a brain for economics
>>76066068
So, what happens if every single person in the country says "Fuck it. I don't want to work anymore" and shows up at the benefits office to collect their check on the same day? How does the country pay for that?
>>76070135
I like their democracy though
>>76070184
UBI; no point in dumping people into useless busywork and denying those who are so inclined the opportunity to devote their time to studying and in the future contributing far more than they ever could have as a Keynesian ditch-digger.
>>76070071
We can model government spending just fine.
All they have to do is show where UBI fits into a chart like this one? But they never do.
It's almost as if they're expecting it to just work, presumably because they want it to. Like that's ever gone wrong.
>>76067639
>The average person has proven time and time again, that they have an incredibly high bias towards frivolous spending. They don't make sound/prudent investments.
Take this to be true, now assume it doesn't change ever. The end result will be winner or a handful of winners take all, while the other 99.99% of the planet have nothing and have no chance, beyond the lottery or becoming that one in 10,000,000 who's original idea/invention actually makes them cash. UBI is ultimately a redistributive tax. The rich will have to pay more. IT's that or we come kick down your door and string you up.
>>76066434
>communism returns to switzerland
Uhhhhm last time commie agitators were trying to take over, we shot them. Like the one on the 9. November 1932 where 13 commies were shot. They attempted their famous "knife in the back"-routine and ended up with a bullet-hole in the face.
>>76070281
>Wenn 70% ufgno wärde, und somit nomau die azahl neui flüchtlinge cha behandlet wärde, eifach imne schneuere intervall, was gloubsch, wärde me oder weniger ufgno? Usserdäm wird d schwiz när dr ruef ha, das me dert schnäu inechunt, wases o nid
>>76070333
You snip off the DWP bubble and replace it with BI.
>people who don't work get a salary
I wish I had a basic income, then I wouldn't have to work all the time.
>>76070060
I literally explained to you what's in it for them in my post.
>>76070281
woher nemmsch du die zahl 70% ?
ond unrelated
erkennsch du a minere schriibwiis woher ich chume?...du berner :)
>>76066112
/thread
If you keep your population 1) Well educated and 2) Slowly decreasing/stable this is a feasible proposition.
>>76070331
Pretending to be cultured and democratic while gouging half the planet is the Swiss ethos. As a kraut, you should be immune to the Switzerswindle.
>>76067552
>move to
>residing
>>76070185
Also lueg mol d'Statistik do ah:
https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/de/home/publiservice/statistik/asylstatistik/uebersichten.html
Schutzquote + Annerkennungsquote isch bi 75% jedes Jahr.
Mir duets weh dasses so dommi Sieche wie dech get. Und s'trurige isch, die Initative wird sowieso agno.
>>76070526
>Also lueg mol
>Und s'trurige isch
>>76070177
lol
HEBED ALL MAL PFRÄSSE MIT OINE SCHEISS DIALEKT!
t. Züri
>>76070270
Okay, the arguement is Venezuela.
>Give people free money
>they waste it all
>suddenly there's no money left to give them
>inflation in the triple digits
>can't maintain electricity generation
>bread queues for miles
>where have we seen this before?
I'm not saying you're an idiot, just completely ergonomically illerate.
Btw it was already trailed and failed miserably. Commie economics don't work.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome
>>76070497
kek
>>76070177
accurate
>>76070433
Züri, oder schüsch ostschwiz. Bi schlächt i däm.
Es het mau irgend e testbetrieb gä wos so funktioniert het wies mitem neue asylgsetz würd. Dert si gloubes 70% ufgno worde. Steit äuä hie irgendwo http://www.bfs.admin.ch/
>>76069447
>ireland, can you read a basic econ textbook before acting like you know something, you fuckhead
>money is made by efficiency. companies that are more efficient, make more money. investors make money by being smart, and CHOOSING companies that are efficient, and giving them more money than they have in pure profits so that they can be MORE efficient than otherwise.
>THIS is why capitalism works. THIS is why central allocation is ALWAYS poorer.
Oh america-kun, maybe you shouldve opened more than just one economics book before you started shitposting. It doesnt matter if a company is efficient or not in 2016, just dump all its assets a la Jim Slater and James Goldsmith and look at that the share price goes up!
You think you know shit about investing, but you don't.
tl;dr its 50 years too late to think the efficiency of a company makes you money.
>>76066950
>>76069343
>>76067499
Why are they calling it basic income then though? Basic income is supposed to be for EVERYONE, regardless of their own income... That's the way I always understood it anyway: That if I make €1500,-/month and my boss makes €4500,-/month, and a basic income of 500 is introduced, that my income will than be €1500 wages + € 500,- basic, and my boss's income €4500,- wages+ €500 basic.
Otherwise there indeed isn't any incentive to work for the lowest income brackets.. It should be an extra for everybody. If they'd introduced this in NL, and subsequently cut all the income based subsidies, welfare, premiums etc, it would likely actually be cheaper than the bureaucratic system we have now, as currently everyone is entitled to some kind of premium or subsidy, be it for heathcare, children or rent.. A flat rate for all would be cheaper because it would make enforcement, checkups and calculations of eligibility unnecessary.
>>76070211
Yep. Our Green Party suggested something similar in the UK.
They were going to take the entire £250bn social welfare and pensions budget and redistribute it.
Until... they started arguing about single mothers. So they said "okay, single mothers get more money". Then they started arguing about Housing Benefit. So they said "okay, we need to give more money to designated poor people" and so on and so on until the final model ended up doubling the social welfare and pensions budget.
Also worth noting, this UBI model would provide £3846 per year to everyone in the UK, or £4807 if we just paid it to adults.
That's not even near minimum wage. The cheapest council house rents are barely covered by the latter.
UBI requires a magic source of money, which if we had access to, we'd already be exploiting.
>>76069824
It failed, and it will fail again.
Unfortunately, you can try the same initative/referendum every year as long as you gather all the signatures.
So basically, every 5 years, leftists try to pass that kind of bullshit, it will fail, they'll say that "people didn't understand us" and try again later.
The left here always blame their failure on others, either the people for not understanding, or other parties for disrupting their stance.
And the saddest part is that the majority of the left is in the french part of Switzerland.
Without it, we could truly become a paradise.
>>76069524
I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here.
I'm completely neutral about the subject. But claiming it has no theoretical good sides is retarded. It would make sense if we lived in a perfect world in which no one would "fraud" or egoistically exploit that system, the question now is to know wether or not Switzerland is good enough to make it work.
>>76069603
By using the money that would usually go toward the now useless welfare programs and raising the taxes on various products a bit.
>>76069346
This as well, it's barely enough to live in poverty. This may seem a lot to you third-worlders but it's not a big deal, all things considered.
>>76070617
you need to specify waste for idiots like him
the government prints money, and WHO ends up with it?
OH DRUG DEALERS and WHOTES. and what do drug dealers and WHORES spend their money on? GUNS, DRUGS and HITS.
I'm willing to make a bet that out of the trillions venezuela wasted, very LITTLE of it went to things like technology or medecine.
that's what EFFICIENCY means.
if they're starving legitimately, I bet you more of their incme will go to technology and medecine instead of drugs.
>>76066068
>feel when move to Switzerland to enjoy neet life while getting paid
>>76070814
What do you think should be done to fix the issue of automation putting everyone out of work?
>>76067909
>people will work because they will want to consume more
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHSHAHAHAHShahshhaahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahaha
>>76070526
also wenn ich das rechtig gseh tuesch du d schutzquote ond asylbewelligonge zämerechne???....idiot bisch wohl ehner du
>>76070814
This. They always try again. Our green party is basically communists LARPing as environmentalists trying to outdo the other left parties with their idiocy.
>>76069848
this, the level of this UBI will only ever go up and up until it reaches breaking point it seems
>>76070902
The only reason to work instead of go on welfare right now is because you aspire to more than what welfare provides.
>>76070833
>By using the money that would usually go toward the now useless welfare programs
How is that not replacing the current welfare system with another one?
And wouldn't it be way more expensive than the current welfare system?
>>76070617
>Basic income is somehow communism
what
>>76066068
>That's a monthly salary for a lot of people
That's the point. It would still get taxed and people would still work
>>76070725
I'm outlining the basis by which posperity exist. america is a fucking poverty filled shithole precisely because it diverged from what I said.
>>76070891
Nothing.
The majority of jobs that could be automated are done by foreigners or people with low education, nothing to be lost here.
>>76069765
>If you kill our council (we don't have a president, we have a council), all 7 of them, it will change jack shit and 7 more will get elected.
>If you kill the kings of france and the US the countries are devastated and inoperant for a few months.
Doesn't really make sense. Our kings (aka presidents) aren't that important. The country will be emotional, at worst. It's the rest of the government and congress/senate/parliament that matters.
In France, if you kill the prime minister + some important ministers (police, defense, justice?) you will really fuck up the decision making. And more like you fucked the proposition making, the decisions are done at last by the parliament and senate.
Then it's only state law. A Mayor can do what he wants in his city if it doesn't go against state law. We have far right mayor that arm their local police officers, the state can't do shit about that and only leftists complain.
See how long Belgium lived with no government some year ago.
Your right about the rest, what you have in Switzerland is not a tool to make decision, but to make decision better suiting the citizen because direct.
>>76070902
sheeeeiiit
>>76070976
2500 francs is a lot, but if the payout is a bit lower it's not hard to imagine that it'll be cheaper than their current welfare sysytem.. The main reason welfare is so expensive, is because it's a collective system that can only be relied upon by individuals that are eligible. Which requires civil servants to enforce the conditions, to check up the eligibility, to set the amounts and when a benefit is awarded, to regularly check up the criteria/eligibility to make sure people don't abuse the system. The same applies to subsidies for rent and healthcare, tax breaks etc.. If you do away with all of those 'if X than Y' type of policies, and replace it with 'everybody gets X, no exceptions' you can cut most of the overhead...
>>76071095
And if the majority of jobs lost turn out to be white collar work, what would you do?
>>76069473
I can post the text and traduce it in english, it will help for further discussions:
"The constitution is modified like so:
Art. 110a Unconditionnal basic revenue
1. The confederation establishes an unconditionnal basic revenue.
2. The basic revenue must allow the entirety of the population to live an honorable (or worthy, not sure of the traduction) life and to take part in public life.
3. The law rules the financing and the amount of the basic revenue."
When we say unconditionnal it means that you can't, by any condition, go UNDER. It doesn't mean we give you the exact amount with no condition.
The initiative commity has a graph showing exactly that and they say only the poor will benefit from it.
They also say that it won't change anything in the employment market but they are leftists, they don't comprehend economics nore they comprehend that the incentive for low wage people to work is directly dependant on the fact they can't survive without....
>>76069899
how long can this last? Can i just make bank then go through waves of work and relaxation?
>>76070925
Bem Testbetrieb send 50% vode Abgwiesene untertaucht haha.
Mir isch eigentlich scheiss egal was usechont, wenn no meh Flüchtling chöme esch au guet
>>76066068
They will vote no. That petition just got the enough NEET and weed dudes support to call a referendum
>>76070929
you probably need to kidnap them, execute them, and hide the bodies where no one can find them under some rock in lauterbrunnen so they don't keep trying to destroy your country.
straw that breaks the camels back
>>76070833
it has no more good sides than can hitting an engine with a hammer fix it. a delicate machine built on efficiency cannot be fixed by decreasing efficiency or destroying its mechanisms
>>76071188
>. It doesn't mean we give you the exact amount with no condition
Well then it's shit.
>the incentive for low wage people to work is directly dependant on the fact they can't survive without....
This doesn't explain [at least in our economy] 16 year olds and such working in supermarket jobs even though they're still dependent on their parents and squandering the money.
Reform the incentive for people to do low wage work by making it easier to dip in and out of [because minimum income is supporting them] and allow people to keep money earned by working while also getting their minimum income and you avoid the issue entirely.
>>76070998
>redistributing wealth to people who refuse to work is totally not communist bro
Again, economically illerate.
>>76071144
Our previous federal government tried exactly that and fell flat on its face. 'Everybody gets X, no exceptions' leaves you with a very low common factor that won't cover the costs for welfare recipients who are dependent on special treatment, such as diabetics. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. To each according to his need, there's no way around it.
>>76070793
>Until... they started arguing about single mothers. So they said "okay, single mothers get more money". Then they started arguing about Housing Benefit. So they said "okay, we need to give more money to designated poor people" and so on and so on until the final model ended up doubling the social welfare and pensions budget.
Yeah that shit would need to go, doubt it's possible in the current political climate thought so it is bound to fail.
It does not need to be a huge amount, even if it was only 5000 it could probably allow someone not able to find a job a way to live (in bad conditions, maybe with some roomates or whatever) but since they would not have any luxuries it would give them an incentive to find work.
>>76071250
>a delicate machine built on efficiency cannot be fixed by decreasing efficiency
>efficiency
töp lül
>>76071188
It's not a basic income if you don't get the income on top of what you make by working.
The entire point of doing it that way is to avoid a situation where people decide to stop working so they make more money (or slightly less) for less effort.
Instead, everyone makes the same x, and if you want more on top of that x, you work and whatever you get from work is completely independent of x.
>>76071312
>This doesn't explain [at least in our economy] 16 year olds and such working in supermarket jobs even though they're still dependent on their parents and squandering the money.
>implying 16 year olds in the UK can survive without smartphones and getting hammered on the weekends
That's why they work. It's why I worked when I still lived at home...
>>76069907
>where is the money going to come from?
what? are you sure you are not confusion wealth with money? this is equivalent of asking where does welfare come from. you spend it to circulation.
>>76071323
Communism is the means of production being owned by the government.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
>>76071096
In france your king is fucking you in the butt and the next election will make you chose between him and a guy from the same social class comming from the same school who will fuck you all the same.
I prefer to vote my laws than beeing 49.3'd to the ground.
>>76071386
I've already previously raised the case that people would work low-wage jobs [+BI] to consume more. [Smartphones+Hammered]
He was saying people only work those jobs out of necessity, which already isn't the case here and most certainly shouldn't be the case under any proper basic-income system.
>>76071334
>leaves you with a very low common factor that won't cover the costs for welfare recipients who are dependent on special treatment, such as diabetics.
We have mandatory health insurance in the Netherlands. People that need special treatments in terms of heathcare are covered by their insurance, unless they're idiots that break the law and would rather NOT be covered by insurance while paying fines that actually exceed the premiums for basic coverage.
>>76071323
There's still private land ownership and private means of production, so technically it's neither communism nor socialism. It's much closer to a welfare system in a capitalist country.
>>76070177
retards still thinking this is "keynesian", when it's just economics. ie. when you calculate the wealth of nation by new production
>>76071323
The USSR viewed work as an obligation if you were capable of it.
>>76071405
Technically that's socialism. Communism is a stateless society. [And impossible, yada yada yada.]
>>76071151
Won't happen.
Automation is a non-issue raised when there's noting to talk about.
Here, we have a different educational system to not be bothered with it.
If you're not a deadbeat, you can get a "Maturity" after finishing post-obligatory school.
This allows you to enter into university.
Or you can start a stage as an apprentice in a huge variety of field to get a "federal certificate of capacity". This can range from working in the medical field (nurse, etc) as doing manual labor (carpenter, etc).
This certificate allows you also to enter into university to specialize in your field.
This is the proof that the state recognize your capability and can also be used to work in other countries.
So yeah, again, the only loss automation could bring is foreigner or deadbeat, so nothing of value.
>>76071205
bim regelbetrieb isches ja au ned vell besser
