Post disgusting, soulless, obscene, offensive insults to European history and identity.
what am i supposed to get angry at here?
there's a glass pyramid outside at the louvre, big fucking deal boo hoo.
licki-licki
This is a deliberate slap in the face to Americans.
>>75990792
Kek, but you're still a fucking mick
>>75990792
/thread
How cucked can one country be?
>>75990682
[THIS POST IS UNAVAILABLE IN EU MEMBER STATES DUE TO THE HATEFUL AND/OR VIOLENT NATURE OF ITS CONTENT. ANY DELIBERATE ATTEMPT TO ACCESS CENSORED CONTENT WILL RESULT IN PROSECUTION TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW UNDER CONSPIRACY AND ACCESSORY GUIDELINES FOUND IN EU RESOLUTION #3648.]
Also semitic religions.
>>75990682
>stealing the black man's architecture
>>75990792
DELETE THIS
>>75990818
muh degenerate art
>>75990792
Beat me to it lol
Very Ugly
>>75990682
Its current state and culture.
>>75990855
I don't see how a revolver could have a barrel that long anyways
>>75990818
It's about aesthetics nigga. The glass pyramid is jarring, alien, stupid looking, and generally detracts from the beautiful French Renaissance art and architecture in every way.
It's like wearing clown shoes with a $10000 custom suit. It just doesn't belong, at all. It's so wrong it had to be deliberate.
>>75991363
Eeew gross what is that
>>75991602
who made it: Kike, leftist cuck, or faggot?
>Post disgusting, soulless, obscene, offensive insults to European history and identity.
Okay.
>>75991363
>>75991704
Don't know why but it reminds me of Electric Eye by Judas Priest.
>>75991726
Don't know the details really. It was built in 89 and the architect was a Chinese American, and there was a lot of popular public resistance to it but it went through anyway.
>>75991377
To penetrate batman's plane
>>75990682
No, that's not photoshopped.
>>75993119
france why
>>75993119
THE BUTTPLUG OF NOTRE DAME
There's nothing wrong with modern architecture.
You can't stay in the past mate.
Didn't you play Age of Empires?
The buildings change after you enter another age.
That's how it's supposed to be.
You can keep your sandcastles.
Pic related is awesome.
Give me star trek space architecture NOW.
>>75990905
Thanks mom, dad was being mean.
>>75990792
Deal with it eurocuck
>>75990792
Le/Thread
this is how most of western Europe really looks
>>75994387
can confirm
>>75990792
Pay military debnts.
>>75990792
This where all the degeneracy originated..
>>75993813
Gr8 b8 m8
>>75990818
It's an inhuman pile of excrement defacing an iconic piece of historical architecture.
>>75990949
If they would take that down, Russia would call them fascists.
>>75990792
true
>>75994387
Randstad cucks will never know this comfy
>>75994387
If you live beneath the sealevel
>>75990792
fpbp
Degenerate architecture thread? Degenerate architecture thread.
>>75994746
The very definition of paradise
>>75991704
>>75991905
It's a yugoslavian communist monument for the partisans in WW2
>>75995056
The Bauhaus movement was a mistake.
>>75994387
>ywn know the comfy of your ancestral homelands
feels bad man. at least they're no muslims
>>75991363
>666 kb
>>75995056
I really like the musée des confluences, on the contrary of a horror like l'Arche de la Défense.
It reminds me a lot of Daniel Dociu art.
>>75991363
It's like Soviet monuments were designed as props for a post-apoc setting.
>>75990792
This. Without the US everything would be perfect and we could all live in a world of military dictators whose slogans cater to my simpleton brain.
>>75996345
It's not a Soviet monument.
>>75990682
I avoided the Louvre when I went to Paris, glad I did. Pompidou and Orsay were much better.
>no idea where this is or if it's even in Europe, but w/e
>>75990682
Fun fact about that glass pyramid, it supposedly has 666 pieces of glass in it, so it's obviously the work of the Devil.
>>75990792
>thread over after fpbp
![Museu_Nacional,_Brasilia_05_2007[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/AzNpaap.jpg "Museu Nacional, Brasilia 05 2007[1]")
>>75990682
I know it's not in Europe, but reminds me of this retarded museum in my city.
Modern art was a mistake.
>>75990682
I was there two summers ago. I was offended that they had separate exhibits for Egyptians and Africans.
its in the middle of the old town
>>75997286
Berlin bruh
>>75998279
What the fuck.
>>75990949
It may be a cuck, commie rapist monument, but the architecture is nice.
>>75996057
huh, I recognize that art style. he did some of the loading screens for the game Guild Wars 1.
>>75998279
Looks like a giant sea slug is fucking a condo
>>75998279
A fucking upside-down cow udder?
>>75990792
>patty bringing the bantz
>>75990792
REKT
>>75998377
>>75998680
>>75998686
another angle
>>75998850
fucking hell
>>75998850
Looks like something Lovecraftian. Seriously, why?
>>75998850
Is this what liberals mean when they say that they literally can't right now? Because I literally can't right now. What the fuck?
>>75995856
i remember watching that part of the movie with my dad and just bursting out laughing when he pulls that shit out.
>>75998850
It looks like an enormous tumor infesting a quaint little town.
That architect should be hanged.
>>75998279
Didn't Graz massively vote for Van Der Cuck too?
>>75999088
no, just JEWISH ARCHITECTS. They are like STARS and forget the Gothic Cathedrals, Goy.
>>75998850
THE JEWS.
>>75998850
>People still buy into the modern art meme
>Not realizing it's an excuse for having no talent
Modern art is heresy
>>75999292
I agree
>>75999454
of course
>>75999292
It's a metaphor for post modernism.
>>75990949
Gotta hand it to the Reds. When it comes to totalitarian bleak concrete memorials and buildings, they're the best at it.
>>75999581
Is cancer of all forms the new civil rights front or what?
Cancer in architecture, politics, ...
>>75998850
Kos... or some say Kosm.
>>75991762
I can follow up to this Masterpiece
>> 76000000
>>75995093
oh man.. don't even get me started..
>>75998038
(((Niemeyer))))
>>75991363
Looks like the altar of a cyber god.
>>75999550
I think they really just want to differentiate themselves from things that they have already built so they just make obscene things because they'll stand out. That and people likely don't really learn architecture anymore since they just want to see the money.
>>75996813
I noticed this too.
>tfw you Deus vult internally.
>>75990682
This architecture wouldn't be half as bad if they didn't shove it next to older stuff.
Like, an entire city full of similar buildings would work.
This horrible pile of shit defacing the once beautiful and elegant Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto, Canada.
>>75994746
I want to move to a place like this, and my girlfriend goes "oh, it's too cold"
looks like you can live in a suburb with your new husband, bitch
>>75998618
you want a prize or something, faggot?
>>75990682
They should do this to all works of art. Just put something in front of it to block the view. That would be so progressive.
>>76000968
Not to mention this hideous hunk of shit a few blocks away
>>75995056
wait so you are saying that art used to launder money is also used to attain different ends as well?
>>75990792
Damn
We got rekt
>>76000968
Was too quick to post
>>75998850
>>75999550
>>76000539
it's just to launder money.
>>76000947
This. Architectural styles are like races; best when not mixed.
Futuristic styles can look very impressive when they make up their own neighbourhoods.
>>75991821
HNNNNG
Somebody please post that monument/statue (whatever it is) in France that got shit ton of grafiti on it.
>>75990792
Rekt.
>>75993119
>>75993430
It got destroyed a few hours after installation though.
>>75994601
no, it really isn't
americans ran away from europe and decided to fight a bloody war just to get away from euro degeneracy
>>75990949
Muh six hundred gorillion rapes.
>>75990792
First post best post
>>75994746
>>75995093
>>76000399
>mfw i live in a place that looks exactly like this in ny
>i've only been to nyc 3 times
Contributing
>>75991363
Are you kidding? It looks awesome
>>76000968
Looks like a broken graphics card.
>>76001460
The Charles monument? Antifa actually stuck an ISIS flag on it for a while.
>>75998850
I'm packing a van full of ANFO as we speak - what would the residents of that town think if I blew the fuck out of that monstrosity? I don't care if the townsfolk are inside, voluntarily entering that demon structure should be illegal
>>75990949
These are actually very good.
The thing is, they are all operational, in case people decide to overthrown the globalist government.
>>76001234
Why
This is a far more practical design than a roof
>>75994746
>Heaven.jpg
>>75998850
I've never felt disgusted by a building before.
>>75994746
I can't imagine how shitty farming would be in the fjords.
>>75990682
Seriously, fuck modernism.
Fucking LeCorbusier.
I hate modernism so fucking much.
>>75996345
That's no coincidence.
>>76001234
lol oh man, forgot about that, fucking horrendous.
>>75996992
Snownigger detected
>>75998279
>>75998850
>>75998377
It looks like some organic life form fell from the sky and started growing. And to disguise itself it took the form of some demon inspired building.
Don't they teach architects these days to look at the surroundings and see if what they want to build fits in? Or does everyone want to be a special snowflake and stand out
>>76001911
Kill it with fire!
>>75991762
Masterpiece, was about to post her ugly smugface, this fucking whore... REEEE
>>75993590
>JUST
>>76001234
Did they design this in Minecraft?
Were they expecting mobs to come out at night?
>>75999550
>Go to an art school for shits and giggles after retiring out of the military
>Take Art History
>Get to Modern and Post Modern Art
>Instructor doesn't really go too much into it
>One of the students asks why he's glazing over it
>He sighs and turns off the projector
>"Because modern art is a sick joke. It takes not talent and it does nothing to show skill."
>The student starts to rattle off all the "important" po-mo artists and their impact on art
>It's obvious he doesn't want to continue talking about and cuts her off
>"Listen, Hitler and Stalin had impacts on their respective countries but not in good ways. Let me explain this in a way you might get. Imagine being a chef and after having spent years in training and having access to the best tools and best ingredients imaginable. Now you take just a random assortment of ingredients, throw it into a bowl, mix it and serve it room temperature. The outcome would be disgusting, unpalatable and a complete waste of time, resources and talent.
>That's what modern art is to actual artists."
Best class I ever took there.
>>75990878
nailed it
>>76002018
kek
>>76002840
UĆ, ale za to jak nowoczesnie.
>>75990792
DELET THIS
>>75990792
I'll buy you a drink anytime.
>>75990792
First post
>>75995056
God Forgive Us
>>76002975
Based. It's a miracle they had a teacher who hadn't swallowed the modern-art pill.
>>75991363
This is a prime example of post-war brutalist architecture. It's a monstrosity but it honestly looks breathtaking.
>>76002099
operational my ass, many of those tanks are cemented in place.
>>76003631
From the thumbnail it looked like a house that would have crumbled after a storm.
>>76003631
>jewish architecture
>>76002725
>Don't they teach architects these days to look at the surroundings and see if what they want to build fits in?
No.
>Or does everyone want to be a special snowflake and stand out
Yes.
Modern architecture can't into 'fitting in' and interacting with it's environment. It's inherently autistic.
>>76004130
>Yes.
>Modern architecture can't into 'fitting in' and interacting with it's environment. It's inherently autistic.
Naturally all the mentally ill progressives destroying the world are the main proponents of modern art. All the faggotry, anti-traditionalism, globalism. Fuck them all - everything they "create" is suffering and darkness.
Reply to this post and remove any doubt you're a total asshole.
>>76004130
>Modern architecture can't into 'fitting in' and interacting with it's environment. It's inherently autistic.
It's not autistic. It's about creating a relevant context for the modern environment. I mean come on its 2015. (<- This is what most architects here actually believe).
Pic related.
>>76001741
where???
>>75990682
Fuck Brutalism.
>>76002725
>>76004130
>Don't they teach architects these days to look at the surroundings and see if what they want to build fits in?
Thankfully modern architecture is usually standalone and does not include a wider context.
But when modernists try to make a comprehensive plan and fit things together, they just end up with monstrosities like that (because fuck the individual, it's only the big picture that matters) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he4C7gWEpEU
>>76004990
>>76005318
>>76005407
what a monstrosity
Victorian era architecture was beautiful, England should have stuck with that
>>76004990
>>76005318
>>76005407
The shape looks grotesque.
>>76005682
>Victorian era architecture was beautiful, England should have stuck with that
But what about the progress?
We can't just have the streets look like in the horse and buggy years. Were will all the cars fit? It would lead to a traffic apocalypse! But when we knock down half Glasgow to make room for the M8 all will be better. I mean come on it's almost 1995 !!1!
I've got a friend that's studying to become an architect. At college they convinced him of pic related (which is some blocks from his college) being beautiful.
>>76006037
* 1955
>>75991363
>>75991363
Looks cool actually
Just fuck my city up familie.
>>76006037
sure some changes have to be made to accommodate technological progress, but the aesthetics could have been preserved
>>76006060
I wouldn't say beautiful, but its simple and utilitarian which is more than can be said for most modern architecture.
>>75990682
>>75990792
You're disgusting
>>75990818
awww boo hoo.
That's you.
>>76006060
At least it's not a complete autistic monstrosity.
>>76006499
That's exactly the problem. Utilitarism where there should be art is disgusting.
>>76002421
It is true senpai. Many good men have lost their lifes to the traktorvelt (tractor tip) in the steep slopes of the norwegian fjord farms.
>>75990792
You have a sheep whore paid by me
>>75990792
btfo
>>75990792
A fucking le
Wait a minute, you're not a leaf. WTF?
>>76006767
YOU ARE DISGUSTING
>>75998279
>>75998850
The fuck.
Its looks like an alien slug, an invasion.
>>75998850
Properly named the Kuntshaus
>>75994746
Well screw you I liked Aquafresh better anyway
>>75990682
don't worry it will be destroyed soon enough by a suicide bomber
It's just an old historical building related to our history as a harbor city.
Who cares?
>>76004990
I used to live about 2 minutes from where that picture was taken and made that walk almost every day, that makes me sad anon.
>>76004571
Jawohl meine kamerad?
>>75991363
is that a magnemite?
>>76002217
Maybe your beaner families should flee there instead of here.
>>76004990
Everything in London built recently is disgusting
>>76006499
>sure some changes have to be made to accommodate technological progress, but the aesthetics could have been preserved
I was being fucking ironic. There is no way you could justify knocking down half the city and turning the other half into a lifeless desert, so that some wanker from the suburbs can cut down his commute time by 5minutes.
But don't take it from me, Andres Duany says it best: "we stopped building cities to make people happy and started building to make cars happy":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwd4Lq0Xvgc
>>75990792
/thread
>>75995056
top right looks like a screenshot from the newest Halo
>>75998279
Kill it, Shinji kun!
wow
much art
>>76005407
that shit will fall and the tower will still be there.
>>75995056
confluence is actually quite cool irl
>>75990682
the amerifat is right with this one though. It was made by the masons to shit on the house of the Kings of France to shame them even more.
>>76008085
Lmao what graphics card does this town have?
>>76006060
fucking lego house m8.
You can't even use it to hide from the rain.
>>75990792
SAVAGE
>>76007814
a balance should be struck. cities can't be designed with no regard given to logistics.
>>76003631
Oh god, i remember a few years ago i was viewing random places in google street view and saw something similar to this but i think it was Chicago.
This is in a place near where i live
>>76008713
Reminds me of this.
>>75994746
Ni har både berg och olja, orättvist fan
>>75990792
Ireland coming out with the bants
>>76008935
At least it has ornamentation.
>>75990682
ROM's glass tumour
Accommodating progress
>>75990792
Noice
>>75993119
Someone pulled out the seine's plughole
>>76007534
Why are they doing this to us? Do they hate beauty and good? Do they hate us? Do they hate the very idea of truth and justice? Do they want to destroy everything that our ancestors gave to us?
What kind of vile, evil, disgusting person could do such a thing?
It's alright, you were intending to commit suicide already weren't you?
>>75998279
>>75998850
It actually looks pretty cool.
>>76008875
>cities can't be designed with no regard given to logistics
Walkable cities and balanced / sustainable transport are a viable alternative to car-centric cities. Just compare NY or Frisco to Dallas or Detroit.
also:
http://www.amazon.com/Cities-People-Jan-Gehl/dp/159726573X?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0
>>76008935
The execution is total shit but I think the concept at least deserves commendation, if it is an attempt to construct large new buildings in a style that it reminiscent of typical old Dutch houses.
>>76009455
Can't wait till every last trace of 50's British Brutalism is erased from this country.
God damn this thread makes me sick
>>76009681
It'll only be replaced with steel & glass though. And those buildings will also exist only to be demolished.
Wow, really makes you think.
Diversity is our greatest strength.
My whole areas old and apart from the "modernized" area where the students live everything else (or nearly everything) is old as fuck. Pic related is in the park, built around 1860 (it's hard to find a good picture of it), the top half of the picture is the front and original, the bottom half is the "modern improvements" they bodged on the side of it, a few years ago.
>>75990682
i have to eat here regulary
>feels bad man
>>76009932
any of these pictures of old buildings with modern elements tacked on really get to me. they can't just leave these buildings alone? or if they have to be touched up, remain faithful to its style?
>>75998279
Literally a huge tumor growing on Western society
Britain has always been an Islamic state.
>>75997286
stelenfeld in berlin, holocaust memorial. Already started to rot. Also there was a funny controversy because the company that produced the anti grafitti coating produced zylkon B in WW2 kek
Also there's police there and they yell at you when you climb on the things
>>76009967
every damn time
>>76009828
>no we what are not we own
what did they mean by this?
![1873-buntline-target-revolver[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/z2drZ0M.png "1873-buntline-target-revolver[1]"){kind=small}
>>75991377
http://www.uberti.com/1873-revolver-carbine-and-buntline
>>75993813
Who said anything about this? Modern art can be aesthetically appealing, but a large amount of it is just fucking outright lunacy.
What kind of renovation you want senpai?
>>75990792
since when do they pay irish people to shitpost? it´s getting obvious
You just don't understand it.
>>75998850
That's fucking gross m8
>just
>>75990792
Laughed so hard I choked on spit
>>75991363
Since no one knows:
Yugoslavian monuments from the 70s iirc
Just google them "Yugoslavia futuristic monuments"
They were built in the golden era of the country in order to represent what the near future will look like, oddly enough it does after the radiatiom from 99'
They were advanced fuckers back in the times of Yugoslavia, but as I understand it, Maršal Tito only raised so much credit that generations today are still paying it.
Source: Serbian wife
>>76009115
Whoever is responsible for that abomination should be shot.
Jews.
>>75990792
God dammit
>>76008713
Is there actually a point in that or is it purely just defile the old building?
>>76010907
>a giant steel nose parasitizing an already existing construction
pottery
>>76010080
Yeah they really piss me off too. The worst part for me is because of how old the area is they're trying to creep this modern shit everywhere and worse is when they just throw this shit on the side. Pic related again, old bungalow from 1903 that some old guy lived in for a long fucking time, he died a couple of years ago and it went up for sale. Some Jew bought it (I don't mean that in the meme sense it was actually a Jew) and put this shit on the side of it.
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-56715029.html
>>75990792
Well done Paddy!
>>76010099
Is that really the UK? I've never been, but wtf is with that trash everywhere? The UK can't have places filthier than Watts... can it?
Read between the lines.
Get it? ;-)
>>76009805
Bring the kids, its a lovely day out.
This insect experimentation upon peoples lives.
>>75991363
those things always scared me
>>76011056
Modern art and architecture was promoted and funded by the West as a fuck you to the Commies.
Feels bad man.
>>75998850
>>75998279
>Hey daddy?
>Yes, son?
>I am done playing with my toys I cleaned my room brushed my teeth I want a puppy for Christmas and I want you to read me a bedtime story
>Okay my precious little monster, I'll come right up to tuck you in and make sure nothing disturbs your sleep
>I love you daddy... oh and daddy? You know it's soon my 40th birthday?
>Yes? What would you like me to get you darling?
>I would really like, uhm, I would like if I could design a building for grandma's neighbourhood because it looks old and icky
>>76011144
That's what most British towns look like, although the betracksuited chavs are missing from that photo.
>>75990682
I like the pyramid
>>76011097
No there really isn't.
I guess it's supposed to be ironic.
>>76011144
Britain is quite filthy, walk along the road before the springtime weeds grow and its just empty cartons and junk everywhere.
Drive along, throw all the empty packets from your car window.
Anti-depression story:
http://www.oldhouseonline.com/the-remarkable-transformation-of-the-byrne-reed-house/
>>75990792
I disagree: US has got actual white europid peoples/europeans compared to our continent atm
even if >60% whites, they get noticed unlike here
>>76005682
Show me what a Victorian skyscraper would look like, it sounds gaudy as fuck.
Small scale I could see, but something that size sounds awful.
>>75990682
the queen of England Knighting an avowed homosexual and not one person protested. look what curse God put on,England. he turned the heathen mooooslims loose to prey on your women and gave English men the hearts of cowards.
It's a square!
>>76010099
That rs mcoll sign is a Scottish shop. Scotland has barely any Muslims
It's a cube!
Just discovered that (((they)))'ve sunk their tendrils into Edinburgh. I want to fucking cry.
>>76009534
>Frisco
Frisco is a bedroom community north of Dallas. I think you are making the mistake of calling San Francisco "Frisco" which means you would sound like a dumbass to the locals there if they heard it.
>>76003631
that is distressing, it feels as if the building will tip over just by looking at the pic
>>76012200
Sorry wrong pic
>>76012199
It gives light at night!
Isn't that neat?
>>76002057
You go, Anon. Although it being Graz they'd probably replace it with a 5 star luxury residence for migrants.
Stonehenge Visitor Centre
>>75998279
NIGGA THATS SIN FROM FFX
Why can't europe embrace the future while paying tribute to the past? Warhammer get's it, and it looks amazing. Giant gothic cathedral style spaceships ftw
>>75990792
Couldn't agree more.
>>75990682
Fuck off m8, Le Louvre is a great museum with beautiful piece of art. If only there were less niggers and shitskins when you visit it.
>>76003631
>Looks like something Frank Gehry would "design"
>It's not him who "designed" it
>Maybe it isn't only Jews who make these "designs"
>Daniel Libeskind
>Oh well never mind, maybe next time
How are Jews incapable of having any real artistic merit?
It's just a christmas tree, goy.
What are you upset about?
>>76011839
>Sweden sucking it up again
The cuck memes aren't just memes.
>>75991821
HIGH TEST.. oh wait
>>76009967
This is literally worse than the destruction caused by both world wars combined.
Holy shit WHY.
>>76012901
Its the ugly glass thing. French Architecture is great.
>>76010578
The only thing I don't understand is what the fuck it's meant for. It looks like a weird ass water tower.
Honestly I don't really mind the aesthetic of certain forms of modern art, but trying to mix it with traditional art is disgusting.
>>76012330
>Frisco
>Frisco is a bedroom community north of Dallas
Exactly, they have some new interesting mixed-use projects going on, showing that suburbia does not have to be endless rows of cookie-cutter houses and strip malls.
http://www.dallasnews.com/business/commercial-real-estate/20130626-cinema-complex-will-kick-off-huge-frisco-mixed-use-project.ece
http://bizbeatblog.dallasnews.com/2016/05/another-development-kicking-off-on-friscos-5-million-mile.html/
San Francisco on the other hand is (save for a few areas downtown) still fucked from the Urban Renewal in the 50s (although they did get rid of Embercaredo Freeway and are trying to get their shit together) and the public transit is still a mess (relatively speaking for a city this size).
>>76013164
Fuck me for not reading the file name, but still, why over-design it?
>>76013136
Yeah I agree that the glass pyramid is ugly and useless. When I visited the museum there was nothing inside
>>76003647
thanks for the wallpaper senpai
>>75994746
Very nice Hälsningar från naboen i öst.
>>76013242
well, there's the whole sarcophagus of mary magdalene thing below it
>>75990682
8/10
>>75991363
7/10
>>76007534
10/10
>>76009115
9/10
>>76009455
0/10
>>76013408
That's weird. When I was there there was nothing. Just a very small pyramid on a rolling thingy under it and that's it.
Maybe it's underground?
>>76013164
It IS a weird ass water tower!
>>76013608
it was just a joke, in the end of the da vinci code it is revealed that the holy grail/sarcophagus of mary magdalene (book/movie) is buried under that wretched thing
>>76013754
Nice to see some color and movement in between those boring buildings.
>>76013869
Ah ok, I never watched da vinci code
>>76002975
Based. Name of the school and professor?
>>76014008
didn't miss anything
>>76011795
i almost knocked my neighbours son out the other week after he chucked his mcdonalds rubbish on the pavement outside of the house. the fucking scruffy cunt looked at me as if i had my dick out for asking him to move it
Step it up fags
>>76014629
we're on page 10 m8
