Religion
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Here to answer questions atheists and agnostics have about the Bible and Christianity. bring em on
Do you have evidence that god exists?
>>75604745
If God is all good and he made everything why is there bad things?
>>75604856
If i could show you evidence that God existed, would you worship him
>>75605028
No.
He's proven himself to be either weak or just a plain asshole. Neither of those beings are something I'd worship, even given solid proof of his existence.
>>75605028
Don't dodge my question. If you have evidence, show me then.
>>75604745
Where do Protestants who believe in "Sola Scriptura" believe the Bible came from and who put it together, given that without Church and Tradition there would be no Bible.
>>75604951
could you show me a verse where he says he is all good? hes good to me, but i cant find one that says he is all good or all evil
>>75604745
Is Santa Claus real?
>>75604856
>Do you have evidence that god exists?
Do you have evidence the universe is infinite and always expanding?
>>75605114
so i would be wasting my time then?
>>75605285
saint Nicholas did
>>75605307
Nice red herring fallacy. We are not talking about the expansion of the universe, we are talking about the existence of god.
>>75605187
scripture has the ultimate authority, but we do have letters from early church fathers who listed the books and some served under the apostles
>>75604856
1. Causation exists.( Empirical Premise)
2. Act and Potency are terms that we can use to explain causation: When something is in Potency it has the capacity to become something else, but is not it yet. A fertilized egg has the potency to turn into a chick, an unfertilized egg does not. When a potency is realized, it is actual. To actualize a potency is to take a property that something had in potency and make it actually inhere in the thing.
3. When we find an instance of causation in the world we find some potency being actualized.
4. Something that is only in potency cannot actualize anything.
5. For some potency to be actualized something actual must actualize it.
6. If A is actualized by B, then B must first be actual.
7. Either something must have actualized B from being in potency to be in actuality. Or B is either necessarily actual, having never been in potency before. ( A v B)
8. If the left disjunct “A” is true then premise 7 applies to a new cause C.
9. If disjunct “B” is true there is a “first” uncaused cause that is pure actuality.
10. If disjunct “B” is never the case then there is an infinite series of actualizations. And we can apply 7 to C, then to a new cause D, and so forth. With every being having its actuality derived from another being.
11. If “10” is the case then there can be no actualization, as every being in the series has its actuality derived from another being, but there is no being with actuality on it's own to derive the actuality from.
12. If “10” is the case there is no causation
13. There is causation ( from premise 1)
14. Premise “10” is not the case.
15. If premise 10 is not the case, then at some point in the series “9” is the case.
16. There is a first cause, which is a being of pure actuality.
>>75605161
what you consider evidence, what kind of evidence would prove a transcendent God
Does God hate Fags?
>>75604745
How is there justice in forgiveness of all crimes? As long as someone repents (essentially just feel sorry) they are absolved. I came from a Catholic background so this may not be true for other sects, but where is the sense in this?
>>75605708
he hates all sin, including divorce, drunkenness, adultery, murder, theft, etc, but he also offers redemption for believers through redemption, so if a homosexual is saved by Christ, than he does not hate him
>>75605585
Begging the question is begging the question no matter how you try to fancy it up.
>>75605114
>He's proven himself to be either weak or just a plain asshole
No, it's Satan who's the "asshole", you euphoric retard.
This is literally Satan's oldest trick in the book, and it still works to this day on pseudo-intellectual edgelords.
Pic extremely related. It's you.
>>75605481
But it leads to the same conclusions
Scientists have beliefs too, even if their methods are different
>>75605585
Instead of saying causation exists why not settle on "predictive models are preferable to non-predictive models"? The admittedly narrow understanding I have of quantum mechanics doesn't fit with the concept of causation all that well
>>75606004
fucking cringed
>>75605766
'Crime' is a worldly construct. You should try formulating your question in terms of sin. God doesn't love everyone. He hates most people.
>>75605766
the greek word for repentance actually means to change mind not feel sorry, but God is the one who grants people repentance, it is not on the person at all, im a reformed baptist, so my views on grace differ from catholics.
>>75605944
I guess I'm grasping for a secular justification for a religious doctrine, an appeal to my sense of justice or my emotions. Not reasonable I suppose. Thanks for the (you) though
>>75605585
The problem with your argument is that you are assuming that the time-space fabric of the universe exists in the current way it does before the universe existed. We do not know how the universe existed before the big bang, therefore, we can not assume that causation and actualization can still apply. And if we assume that these rules applied before the universe, that doesn't prove a god. All of that assumes that something caused the universe to be created. That could mean from the flying spaghetti monster, Russell's teapot, a liquid spilling, or your god.
>>75606104
I was using it in the colloquial sense as some sort of wrongdoing
Arab/10
>>75606117
look at the gospel message, and you will understand
>>75605982
>begging the question
which premise assumes the conclusion is true?
or were you just spouting some jargony philosophical term you heard on some atheist youtube video without knowing what it means?
>>75606011
Please stop attempting to use your red herring fallacy to derail the conversation. Thank you.
>>75606329
Begging the question is when you presented a circular argument in which the conclusion was included in the premise. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question
>>75606239
I've been raised Catholic and I understand it as it's presented. This is a question thread. I just wanted to know how some people here reconciled the relatively permissive concept of forgiveness with the awful atrocities people commit. I'm not religious so I don't have that to bolster my faith in the idea, but it certainly goes against what I believe to be just.
>>75606475
>repeating what i said
which premise?
>>75606176
Humans are not allowed to judge. They do not have the capacity. God will punish all sin. God wants certain people to sin. God can also lead sinners to light. The only thing we can do is love others the same way Jesus loved us, believe in Jesus and his resurrection, repent for our sins, be faithful and be hopeful.
>>75606572
Oh. I thought you were asking the meaning about the begging the question fallacy. His premise was that the rules of causation still applied to the universe, even when the universe wasn't the universe yet, therefore proving that something caused us to exist.
>>75606515
if God was going to hold everyone accountable to their sins everyone would go to hell because everyone has committed a sin, but for those God has given grace to, via the attoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, some people will get to be justified through it. kind of like somebody else paying your fine.
although from personal study, there will be verying degrees of judgement in hell and verying degrees of reward in heaven,
>>75605114
>>75605161
>>75605481
>>75606353
>this threads theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg8vJ9oMdlA&index=24&list=PL95A66788360D91B1
>>75605161
To be fair, the very existence or non-existence thereof of a god is impossible for any human to prove or disprove, due to the very definition of a "creator".
But really, the argument should be based within the point of the religion itself- it's teachings and practices here on earth- rather than the endless petty squabbling that comes from arguing the existence of it's believed creator (or creators in some examples) of the universe or of heaven or hell or any other believed plane of existence after life.
What does the religion provide? What does it do for the common man? How can it be applied or easily reformed for X scenarios?
These would be fairly legitimate questions regarding theology rather than arguing over the god itself (hint: you're not going to get anywhere doing that).
>>75607069
i know God exists the same way everyone else does
Romans 1:18-30
Can God heat up a meal so hot he himself could not eat it?
>>75604745
Ayo hol up I herd Jesus was kangz n shiett. Izzat why he Joseph's wife son?
Any other Old School Baptists in the house? tfw my pastor might get sued.
>>75607069
I do agree with you that arguing about god's existence is kind of useless. It is just that OP said that he can prove god, and I am an atheist, so I responded.
>>75607225
https://carm.org/questions/about-god/can-god-make-rock-so-big-he-cant-pick-it
>>75607279
Reformed Baptist, but i go to a southern Baptist church
>>75607339
yeah people shouldnt argue what they already know
>>75606146
>we don't know so we don't know so we don't know
>you're wrong obv
Do you believe the old as well as the new testament ?
>>75607526
all 66 books to their context
>>75607348
Ha, i appreciate an actual answer, i was just joking. Wanted to see how people would reply.
>>75607469
What do you mean by that?
>>75607596
okay, but you still need to repent and put your trust in Christ
>>75607526
The Old Testament is as true as the New Testament. The New Testament simply builds upon and fulfills the prophecies of the Old Testament
>>75607339
>It is just that OP said that he can prove god
where
>>75607702
you know God exist, but you supress the truth in unrighteousness.
Romans 1:18-22
>>75607583
In that case in regards to the age of the Earth do you take the interpretations of genesis to be exact and how old from your interpretations would you say the Earth is.
>>75607511
He had no evidence that causation is true before the universe existed, yet he argues that causation has always existed. Please explain why my argument is wrong.
>>75607886
I dont really exactly know how old the earth is, because there has been a dispute on the Hebrew word (Yom), but i think a christian can believe in either model
>>75608093
Very well then may i ask how you view the dinosaurs considering they do not fit into this model yet there are place where anyone can go and find them take an example being the trilobite which if carbon dating is correct went extinct 250 million years ago
>>75608081
wouldn't the burden of proof be on you to show that there is some condition where the laws of causality cease to function, since you're the one making the claim?
what's your argument?
how could something come into existence with no causal conditions at all whatsoever?
>>75607797
Top kek. Until you actually provide me evidence outside of the bible, a book over thousands of years old with its main evidence being circular logic, I will not believe that god exist. Also, nice job trying to use your straw man to get me to believe your religion by saying I was always a believer, it is just that I hate god.
>>75607886
But if i would say that they earth was 6000 years old, than what would you say to me?
>>75607886
>He thinks the Bible is about dates and numbers.
This isn't History class. The Bible is about true perfect way of life.
>>75608616
carbon dating assumes that the universe has been consistent since the beginning
https://carm.org/carbon-dating
>>75604745
has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
>>75607279
Southern Baptist, if that counts. why is your pastor getting sued?
>>75607407
do you really believe in all the reformed doctrine?
>>75608679
yes but without the numbers being accurate then why wouldn't i be skeptical considering around the origin of the universe is where most conflict arises .
>>75608081
because you're not directly arguing any points he brings up
>we don't know causation existed before the universe existed
>even if it did it doesn't prove god
>so you're wrong
>>75608630
what would you consider evidence according to a secular worldview for a transcendent being? and if God has revealed enough evidence to you for him to know he exists, than what evidence would be efficient for them?
>>75608628
Nice Straw man. I am not saying that the laws of causality never existed before the big bang. It is just that we do not know, therefore, it will be illogical to assume that the laws of causality apply.
>>75608932
pretty much, any you have a problem with?
>>75608616
God began revealing himself to man 6000 years ago. That is when we were first in his own image. Friend, God exists. What I mean is, the world comes from something. There are natural LAWS. The laws of physics included. Anything that obeys those laws can be referred to as perfect in relation to those laws. The Bible reveals the true laws of the Human Way of Life. That is how you should approach our scripture, good sir.
>>75609105
>Nice Straw man
>I am not saying that the laws of causality never existed before the big bang
>It is just that we do not know
>therefore
>it will be illogical to assume that the laws of causality apply
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
>>75608803
Catholic, here.
The article fails to recognize dating using the radioactive decay of other substances, like potassium, also being used to date fossils and only assumes carbon-dating is the sole technique in dating. Carbon-dating only goes so far back, which is why the half-lives of other substances are used to date object from even farther back.
Plus, it believes the story of Noah- one that has been debunked multiples times(there is not enough water on earth to even flood all continents)- is credible despite the story merely being taken by the Jews when they were enslaved in Babylon from an older Sumerian religious text.
They're protestant fundies.
>>75608960
We all agree that the Universe is governed by laws. Those laws have not changed since the origin. Where do those laws come from? Impossible for us to know. The only way to know it's origin is to study the laws themselves. The laws inform us. That is the basis of Christianity.
>>75609766
Do you believe that God is has the power to flood the earth, or make a young earth that looks old?
Literally everone in this thread is retarded.
May someone answer this then in regards to this passage form the old testament
>"and the men of Judah raised the battle cry. At the sound of their battle cry, God routed Jeroboam and all Israel before Abijah and Judah. 16 The Israelites fled before Judah, and God delivered them into their hands. 17 Abijah and his troops inflicted heavy losses on them, so that there were five hundred thousand casualties among Israel’s able men. 18 The Israelites were subdued on that occasion, and the people of Judah were victorious because they relied on the Lord, the God of their ancestors."
This is from 2 Chronicles 13:15-18 now i believe commandment 6 to be "thou shalt not kill" may someone explain how god would condone this slaughter ?
Or this
>From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.
2 Kings 2:23-24
>>75609421
The straw man is that I said something like "the laws of causality never existed before the big bang", when I am just stating the law is not known to have existed before the big bang, so you can't just assume that causality existed before the universe.
>>75610053
It's kind of hard to have an intellectual debate when you are drunk as fuck.
>>75610136
God is the director of every murder in the world and we must thank him for that. He is sending those murderers to hell for the most part though because he hates them and it pleases him to do so. This should lead you to obey the commandments, lest God hate you too.
>>75610254
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/ambiguity/straw-man/
try again
>>75610136
the hebrew word means thou shalt not murder, so that is different from war or defense.
i can give you some links on elisha, but big picture is those kids were actually adolescents, and they were mocking a profit of God, and there is some assumption of an attack.
https://carm.org/why-did-god-kill-42-lads-merely-saying-elisha-was-bald
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgkMJhcTE1c
>>75608631
I would say that i am unable to believe this due to objects found on the planet that predate events lets take the impact craters from asteroids as an example unless god thought that the earth needed some craters some of the ones that we have uncovered would have caused mass extinction events which would have caused life to cease to be today.
>>75610639
are you a naturalist?
>>75610552
Please explain why it isn't a straw man then.
>>75609977
Of course, but dating states otherwise. If God allowed the earth to appear old and all scientific laws, methods, and technology confirms it is indeed "old", then why wouldn't he want us to believe it's old? He gave us the free will to build, discover, and explore- why not know?
A mere book that was plagiarized from the pagans of Babylon (Genesis) doesn't have as much authority as the technology we built and the sciences- the very fundamentals of his creation- we discovered thanks to the free will we were given.
What do you think of birth control? (barrier/hormonal/IUD/etc)
>>75610623
Good i am actually glad to find someone who can actually give evidence also just out of interest what connection would you say you feel towards Christianity that would pull you to it rather than any other religion and believe that this interpretation of the universe is correct.
>>75610779
it is, your original "argument" to that poster is just one big straw man. try again, except this time directly addressing his points
>>75610723
No i am not i am just someone who once had a very keen interest in prehistoric history and dinosaurs and did astronomy as an enrichment subject.
>>75610789
Fornicators are condemned. You may have sex with your wife. But if you're using birth control you're obviously having sex for unnatural reasons
>>75610789
also do you believe that non-believers that were good people would go to heaven?
>>75610945
He literally addressed the first assumption made are you actually fucking autistic
What's it like believing in an adult fairy tale?
>>75611092
The correct answer is "I'm not the one who gets to judge you, so better be a Catholic to play it safe"
>>75611092
The only one who can judge the righteousness of a person is God. Who are we (sinners) to judge the goodness of fellow men?
>>75611251
Oh shit watch the edge there, cowboy. You might hurt yourself.
>>75611092
Accordingly, non-believers that were good go to limbo, a somber realm that is not of torture or pain, but of regrets and solemn sorrowfulness. It's not bad, but it's not good.
>>75610781
how old was Adam when God created him?
>>75605028
Why would you worship anything?
>>75611251
Is reality a fairy tale to you sir?
>>75611024
>>75610723
May i amend this i am sorry it is late and i thought it said naturist which is quite different. I believe that the laws we are governed by in terms of space time are now constant but in the past may have not been due to some reading up i did around quantum physics that seemed to not allow the laws to have always been as ridged as they are now. But as of the moment i believe that what the scientific community believes for the supernatural holds true so you may call me a naturalist.
>>75604745
Who started this dumb "jesus is God" meme?
>>75611400
We worship the truth. It's the exact same thing as observing the laws of physics to be true. In observing them as true, we essentially 'worship'.
>>75604745
Did Jesus really turn water into wine. And if he did does that mean he supports alcoholism?
>>75611556
Back to the Lodge with you
>>75611581
You don't "worship" the truth, you accept the truth
>>75611556
Abraham actually.
>>75604745
How do I know God hears me when I pray?
I do my best to ask for His help to go to others rather than to myself, but is there ever a sign that someone can hear you?
>>75610945
I responded to his assumption. How am I straw manning?
>>75610940
personal experience mostly, i dont think someone can be converted by evidence alone, but only by the workings of the holy spirit.
in my world view though. eveyone knows God exists (Romans 1:18-22) , but people supress this truth in their sinful nature, and make idols to worship. side note, all religions accept biblical christianity teaches that you can earn your salvation, but biblical christianity teaches that none of it is one you but on the works of Grace, and i think that does make a major difference
Why dont you follow the religion of your ancestors.
>>75611213
not an argument, hence the strawman bullshit
>>75611365
That's a paradoxical statement. He would be of no age if and when he was created, just like everything.
Still, there is further evidence of earlier human-like creatures existing, including neanderthals which lived concurrently with humans. Plus we have the many subspecies- the caucusoid, the mongoloid, the congoid, etc- which directly fracture us further in the present day. I believe God spurred the evolution of human-beings at the base of it.
>>75609184
mostly just the issues with election. sometimes I think some in the reformed camp take a superficial approach to theology and Christianity in general.
>>75611063
anyone who has not recieved the grace of God, they are condemned already, John 3
>>75611618
Does the truth only apply to those who accept it? No. Either way, the truth is reality and you must submit to reality whether you accept it or not.
>>75611958
But you don't worship reality. You don't praise it for existing.
>>75611458
then i would not expect you to beleive or understand the bible. i didnt prior to recieving Gods grace.
>>75611872
From your post
>1. Causation exists.
from anon's first reply
>we can not assume that causation and actualization can still apply.
Seriously is this bait or are you actually that fucking stupid
>>75611556
John Chapter 1 is a start, but i guess ultimately God did
>>75611594
yes and no. drunkeness is a sin, but drinking alchohol is not.
>>75612184
in what way does that refute any of the argument that was originally made
oh wait, it doesn't. because for as long as the universe has existed, causation has existed. claiming hypothetical scenarios before this fact does not change this.
>>75612076
I worship reality because reality is that I am not burning in fire eternally.
>>75611903
is your salvation on you or on Jesus?
>>75607797
How do you know it's the truth? Remember me? :^)
>>75611678
A being that has infinite patience and infinite time would definitely be able to listen to your prayers thoroughly.
>>75612474
shoot i was praying God would have given you a changed mind, but God has revealed it to everyone in a way that we can be certain.
>>75612459
.......What the fuck?
Neither is anyone else.
>>75612474
Because there are observable laws that must have an origin. Whatever that origin is, I call it God.
>>75612394
The problem is that the original argument assumed that causation existed before the universe. Seriously, are you fucking stupid, or are you just baiting?
>>75612146
Well anyway good night thank you for replying the bong must leave now as it is 04:10
>>75612578
God has revealed to me that you're wrong, remember?
>>75612713
good night i hope God gives you grace.
>>75612394
>challenging underlying assumption of a belief
>not refuting the argument
How can you not see the disconnect
Convince me to believe in Christianity rather than Islam or Paganism using only logical and repeatable evidence that doesn't rely on faith.
>>75612759
was that the God of keks?
>>75612704
i'm not the one making such a logical leap of faith in order to disprove another
>>75612477
That's oddly comforting.
>>75612146
>then i would not expect you to beleive or understand the bible
What amazing apologetic work. Are you a Catholic by any chance?
>>75604745
Why are you stupid enough to believe Jewish lies and fairy tales?
>>75612799
Define what you're willing to accept as evidence, and why only that.
>>75612885
nope reformed Baptist (calvinist)
>>75612780
>challenging without proof or argument except "welp, we just don't know!"
>>75612911
lmfao!
>>75612635
And that is why I worship the creator of this world of joy, plentiful harvests, and eternal peace for all who believe and obey the creator of the laws.
>>75612832
Yes, and he gave me some nice dubs when I told you about my revelation, remember that?
>>75612949
Ah a determinist. That would explain it.
>>75613007
God is totally sovereign, so that means he is in control of everything in the universe, including those who will be saved.
>>75610254
What is this nonsense about "before the Big Bang"?
>>75612990
Nice non-sequitur.
>>75612759
Terribly sorry to hear that.
Are there any wrongdoings deemed unforgivable?
>roleplaying
>>75612992
but you told me last time you were joking?
>>75604745
How can I make myself believe in God? I love Christian values and I'd really like to believe God exists, but just because I want to believe, that doesn't actually make me believe.
I've been reading the Bible and praying, but when I pray I feel like I'm not talking to anyone.
>>75613233
No, but genuine repentance gets increasingly hard as the sin gets more severe
>>75613233
God can forgive all sins for those who he saves
>>75612954
This is exactly the argument though. There is no way to know. You made a baseless assumption and then when anon called you on it you go "BUT MUH MUH MUH PROOF"
There was no proof to you initial claim, so how the fuck could there be any counter-point but "there is no way to know that"
>>75613144
Your actions are meaningless then. You could only ever do exactly what you're doing.
So your sense of deciding how you're going to respond to me - or even if you will or not - is a pure illusory deception by your own worldview. There are no choices, and every "decision" is morally equal, since it couldn't have happened any other way.
I hope you one day realize the absurdity in that.
>>75613195
I bet you are, basing your entire life around something which you now know is wrong because of my equally valid revelation. Must suck.
But you can get over it. Look, Kek is giving even >>75613144 some dubs to convince him of the truth.
>>75613173
It's not a non sequitur sir but an explanation of why I worship the creator which is exactly what you're questioning.
What do you do in Heaven when you get bored
>>75612799
Loving people unconditionally feels good man.
Forgiving people unconditiojnally feels good man.
God is Love. He will forgive you no matter what.
What else is there? We're talking deep philosophical and spiritual concepts. You won't ever get 100% rational/logical answers.
>>75613467
>Nobody is in Hell because it doesn't exist
>Therefore I worship God, who I also cannot prove exists.
Very logical and totally follows from what I said.
>>75613301
okay so according to Romans 1, everyone knows God exists, but is the saving belief that saves you, so check this out if you are having trouble with your faith in the ressurection.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkllFXIsV6M
>>75613173
I am talking about what space-time was like before the existence of the universe.
>>75613377
Friend, I don't Know anything. I can only believe. And that's all you can do too. Only God Knows
>>75613588
Why does there have to be anything before the beginning of everything?
>>75613273
Do the digits in this thread seem like a joke to you?
>>75605633
>>75605766
>>75605944
>>75606011
>>75606111
>>75607511
>>75609100
>>75609300
>>75609766
>>75609977
>>75610533
>>75611311
>>75611400
>>75612477
>>75612777
>>75612799
>>75612911
>>75612966
>>75613144
>>75613233
>>75613355
>>75613377
>>75613588
Kek is with us. Kek is the truth. He revealed that you're wrong, and he was right. Don't harden your heart against the truth.
>>75613301
>How can I make myself believe in God?
Just say you do. That's all anybody here does.
The entire point of these /pol/ evangelism exercises is to bait faggots and edgy kids.
>>75613632
necessary contingency. Without an uncaused cause it's turtles all the way down. That's illogical.
>>75613632
I'll take the laws of physics for 500
>>75613682
holy shit
>>75613301
>I love Christian values
You can have those values without worshipping a cuck product simply by becoming a stoic.
Why did God create Adam and Eve and tell them not to eat the fruit if he knew they would eat it and is already aware of every outcome from the beginning of time until the end of time?
Why does God do anything if he already knows everything?
>>75613355
this doesn't disprove anything
using a hypothetical unknown to disprove another hypothetical unknown is always fun logic tho
>>75613376
well not exactly, we have a will, but its corrupted by our sinful nature, but we who are regenerate will live out a different (not perfect) nature, but we are in the here and now and i dont know who the elect are, it could be you, so i am commanded to preach the gospel to Gods glory.
>>75613757
What laws of physics require something to exist before anything exists?
>>75613580
I assumed you meant no living person is currently burning. Which I agree is true. But we have no idea of knowing for sure if God sends the condemned soul to fire or to paradise. I believe a soul remains when a body dies though.
>>75613682
It is obvious that the kek-pepe is the rarest pepe, therefore, he is god of the universe!
>>75613918
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_mass
>>75613682
your kek is an idol, repent or dont, but quit mocking the God you know exists
>>75613632
>space-time was like before the existence of the universe
No.
If you're going to rely on the Big Bang model, spacetime itself expanded from the singularity.
>>75613895
Because he hated them.
>>75613898
>pointing out a glaring flaw in your logic
>doesn't disprove anything
pick one
>>75614092
But god states that he loves all of his children. Nice contradiction.
>>75614092
Why did he hate them? Why would he hate what he decided to make and created from his own mind?
Why would God choose to hate ever if he can feel constant orgasms?
>>75613988
But the universe is not eternal
>>75614061
Why are you quoting something I didn't write?
>>75604745
Why did God create man if He knew in advance that man would sin, and ultimately, He would be sending some to hell.
If God knew every action we would take and every thought we would have before He created us, doesn't that mean that everything we do is predetermined?
I just can't get past these.
>>75613895
to his glory. Gods character is both just, righteous and holy. and also merciful and gracious. the fall was planned, and by his plan he can demonstrate all characteristics
>>75613937
>he is god of the universe
He's the darkness that lies underneath and the chaos that defines the fabric of our being, and evidently the only god that hasn't abandoned humanity yet.
>>75614009
>your kek is an idol
Kek already revealed that you're wrong, anon. You're just a pouty child that can't accept the truth.
>but quit mocking the God you know exists
You just called him an idol. Look at the evidence, you fool!
>>75613900
>>75613922
>>75613988
>>75614250
That makes no sense whatsoever.
>>75614130
>pointing out a glaring flaw in your logic
causation has always existed. prove to me that it didn't before the universe came to be
>>75614184
[citation needed]
>>75613988
The Big Bang model doesn't describe any point where the singularity did not exist. It predicts that the singularity was present before the math even begins.
>>75613682
>016.M3
>worshiping a Chaos god
>>75605028
yes
Do you believe in evolution?
>>75614168
Not every human is a child of God. He sends many to hell.
>>75614170
Who are we to question God? If you do not believe and listen to him, he will continue hating you. If you want him to love you and save you, you must study him and do everything you can to know him.
>>75614187
I replied the wrong post, sorry.
>>75614315
>prove to me that it (causation) didn't happen before the universe came to be
Shifting the goal posts. Classic
>>75614367
>Who are we to question God?
... what
I'm asking YOU dumbass.
>>75614315
I think this lad went over that already: >>75606967
>>75608081
>>75604745
does the bible say anything about whether jet fuel can melt steel beams?
If god created the whole universe, why would he care about us?
>>75614250
>just
>and also merciful
You do realise those are mutualy exclusive, right?
>>75614324
The big bang
>>75614315
>proving a negative
Try again kiddo
You're the one making the assumption that it has always existed, so the burden of proof lies with you, my friend.
>>75614243
to show all aspects of his nature, all things are decreed from God, and everything is predetermined in the ultimate sense.
>>75614367
>Not every human is a child of God. He sends many to hell.
That makes no fucking sense, what the fuck
Are you high
>>75614424
Then why do it at all
>>75614281
what part do you have a problem with?
Could you explain the logic behind atonement? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Say you are guilty of a crime. You stand trial, Judge finds you guilty and sentences you to life. Pretty shitty.
The Judge gives you an out though - if you just swear fealty to the Judge's son (?!?!), you can go free! Turns out, the Judge offers this deal to a lot of folks, and a lot of people take the offer.
The son does 3 days in jail in place of yours and many others' life sentences, and soon he is out on good behavior and now he's the Judge.
Uh what the fuck? Never understood this. How is this moral or even logical?
>>75613900
You can't have a moral will in a purely deterministic world. Will implies choice, and there's no choice in your worldview.
What happens to retarded people when they die? Will they just automatically go to heaven? Or will they go to hell for not being able to understand christianity? And if they do go to heaven, will they keep their retarded level intelligence there or will they become smart.
>>75614363
what evidence would you accept?
>>75614009
your god doesn't exist, you stupid kikeloving faggot. gb2oven with your Greatest Ally
>>75614424
So, you're saying that God made most of humanity just to be sent to Hell?
>>75614508
This
>the fall was planned, and by his plan he can demonstrate all characteristics
Okay, first of all
Why would he create them and tell them not to eat the apple, when he knew he would create them and they would eat the apple anyway
Secondly,
What do you mean "demonstrate all characteristics"
For what purpose would God "Demonstrate" anything? He's God. He is demonstration itself. He is everything.
Nothing about him makes sense.
>>75614243
Friend you must realize that God doesn't have to obey the commandments he gave us. He can do as he pleases. We can either worship him or fight him. But realize how generous he was for giving us a choice in the matter.
>>75614328
Exactly, therefore there was never something created from nothing.
>>75614365
evolution with limits, i dont believe we originated from a single cell, but i think we can adapt to our envionments.
>>75614419
>the assumption that it has always existed
>assumption
>>75614636
>giving us a choice in the matter
If our actions and thoughts are predetermined, then we don't have a choice in the matter.
>>75614548
Get ready for a vague answer that attempts to give you warm fuzzy feelings.
>>75614351
>40k-37984
>worshipping a dead cockroach on a golden throne
Kek isn't for you, maybe you should check out Kuk :^)
>>75614405
how?
If we have nothing.
Given enough time, it will become something, and then it will react, and then it will create everything.
In a similar way, molecules sit around until enough come together to form complex molecules and ultimately life.
That's just the state of being. There's no ultimate reason it happens. It just occurs.
I believe humanities downfall will be attempting to define things that simply are not definable.
>>75614527
Yeah, that's still not an argument for matter having always existed
>>75614636
Why would you have to ask an all knowing god for anything anyway? Couldn't he just read your mind and know immediately what you truly want? So why does he need you to express praise? What does he get out of that?
>>75614679
>argument
>>75614396
What I'm saying is that it's impossible to know God's intent. But we must thank him for hating certain people for sinning thereby encouraging others to do good.
>>75614405
No they aren't.
>>75614861
>What I'm saying is that it's impossible to know God's intent
...
So the answer is
You have no answer.
Uh-huh.
>>75613682
It's not kek it's Jesus.
>>75614828
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-causality/
>>75614679
You are making the assumption that causation existed before the universe.
>>75614506
to demonstrate his Glory. if he sent us all to hell he we would see his wrath, holiness, and justice, but not his mecy or grace. if he sent us all to heaven then we would not see his justice, and holyness; but if he sends some to heaven and some to hell, then you see all aspects of God.
Kek revealed to me just now the following about the creation of the universe:
0/0=1
>>75614570
empirical evidence or something that can be falsifiable would be best however im open to other kinds.
Additionally if you have the time and motivation why a specific or non deistic type God should be worshiped
>>75614468
To explain it differently, you can't be a Child of God if you don't believe in him. God gives us the choice to be his child or not.
>>75614767
No it isn't, but the Big Bang model doesn't describe the origin of matter, or the singularity, so if you could stop invoking Big Bang theory to support your God of the gaps argument, you would be taking a step forward in putting bad meme arguments in the trash.
>Be God
>Faggots on Earth keep sending praise and asking for things
>Already know what they want, don't know why they bother
>Have no ego, no need for it to be stroked
>>75614955
based on all pre-existing evidence
>>75614745
>>75614893
Someone kills your family, gets caught, goes to court, judge lets him go because they're best buddies now and judge felt merciful. Would you call that judge a just man?
>>75614941
Singles say otherwise. Jesus is the product of a cuckold relationship and wants us to worship his dad that's nowhere to be seen.
And people here deny that Jesus was black.
>>75614918
Christian doctrine of salvation is based on faith that Jesus died was was resurrected. Good works aren't enough to atone of the sins people commit.
>>75615039
>>75615039
>strawmans
Show me the evidence for the universe having always existed
>>75614956
>black stallion, white mare
Cuckstianity strikes again.
>>75615100
Sources?
>>75614987
0/0 is a meaningless statement.
>I'm going to take nothing, and do nothing with it.
K.
>>75614939
My answer is that God hated certain people to encourage you.
>>75615120
Yep - judgement is for God. What other people do in this world is irrelevant except insofar as the commands of God are concerned. And God never commands you to punish sin - He explicitly tells you to leave that to Him.
>this whole thread
Why
Is Donald Trump a disciple of Jesus?
>>75605028
Eh, probably not. If he is forcing me to worship him with the threat of hell he is kind of an ego-maniacal dick, if he doesn't pressure me to worship him than who the fuck cares? The glory of Apatheism, no matter what happens nothing changes. I don't care if God exists I live my life like a good person, if that isn't enough than God can go fuck himself.
>>75610136
again witht teh fucking bears they got attacked by bears not killed
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
>tare
>>75614510
its Gods grace that saves, not what the person does Ephesians 2:8-10. sin is a transgression against God, so the sentence for committing a single sin is eternal seperation from God, but the attoning sacrifice is so that some people will get to receive God's grace, but he also changes you as a person when you are regenerated by the holy spirit. Jesus lived a sinless life and paid for the sins of the elect on the cross, so for those people, our sins were paid for, maybe your apart of the elect.
>>75604745
How Jewy is Christianity? Like Jesus thought of himself as a Jew, right? And he was a rabbi so he believed in the torah and all that, with I suppose some minor qualms about interpretation. But he believed in Noah's ark and other bullshit, right?
I really like the New Testament. Stuff like the sermon on the mount is so cool. But I have a hard time reconciling it with the heaping pile of bullshit that is the Old Testament. Historians acknowledge Jesus' existence, but all the crap in the OT is unsubstantiated and I hate it. Can I be a Christian without the OT? Thanks.
>>75615182
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality#cite_note-1
>>75605708
He hates faggotry but not the fag himself.
>>75615211
1/1=1
2/2=1
...
It's clear that the universe got created by dividing nothing with nothing, thus 0/0, with the universe now being the 1. That 1 includes matter as well as antimatter, and if you bring them into contact you get what you started out with, nothing - until Kek decides to divide it by nothing again, creating the next cycle.
>>75615154
I'm not here to try and prove to you that the universe always existed. I wouldn't make extraordinary claims that I cannot substantiate like that.
Here's the thing though:
The universe evidently currently exists.
We're still shy of meeting that goal with deities.
So the chance of the universe always existing is still more viable than a deity existing at all.
This is retarded.
This thread is fuckin shit.
>THE ANSWER IS THERE IS NO REASON OR ANSWER WE CAN UNDERSTAND
HURRRRRRRRRRRR
>>75604745
What's the deal with catholics? I don't understand where the pope came into all this.
Also how different is the KJV to the original provided they're both translated into English
>>75615516
If nothing exists outside of time, and time was created at the Big Bang, then you could conclude that the universe has always existed.
>>75614545
doing wrong is what goes against the nature of God. we are born with a sinful nature, so we cannot seek God, but with his grace, we can be changed, but God can create people who will choose evil ie Judas.
>>75615329
You don't do much better than this guy. And he's a Calvinist.
>>75614573
you know God exists, pretending he doesnt wont let you escape judgment.
>>75615445
someone plz answer?
>>75615657
God made you do it. You can't judge something as having done or not done the right thing in any meaningful way that never had a choice to begin with. It'd be like judging a pebble for being moved by the tide - it would be absurd.
>>75615734
You know pink unicorns exist, pretending they don't won't let you escape their judgement.
>>75615482
Symbols, Marty.
They are an abstraction of a process.
If you're going to divide 1 unit into one part, that part is going to equal 1 unit
If you're going to divide 2 units into two parts, one of those parts is going to equal 1 unit.
You cannot divide no units into no parts, so the symbols represent an impossible operation.
>>75615447
>My source that causation has always existed
>Source leads to a wikipeadia page to the Oxford Dictionary.
You are extremely stupid.
>>75615777
Too Jewish to keep around, if that's what you're thinking.
>>75614581
everyone deserves to Go to Hell, but God has chosen to save some.
>>75614602
God wants to demonstrate his characteristics, if he wants to do that, than he can.
>>75614687
>>75614772
Yes, God is behind your ultimate fate, and your every choice. But still, that choice was given to you by him. And to answer your questioning of the purpose of prayer when God knows our needs: We know that God is a jealous God. We must worship something and if it's not him, it's got to be something else. Usually that would be our flesh or wealth or strength. God hates people who don't worship him. Maybe you think that's unjust, but it's the truth and there's nothing you can do about it but thank God and repent.
>>75615943
what do you mean 'to keep around'?
>>75615631
Time cannot be measured in the absence of matter. That doesn't mean things can't change states, lest the singularity would be unable to expand.
>>75615959
Just in case you missed it I responded to you i n>>75614991
>>75616073
>Jealous
>Therefore flawed
>Therefore not perfect
Your god sucks.
>>75615845
>reading so much into shitposting
The only truthful answer we have is: "We don't know for sure."
>>75614918
God is Just, and that is the problem.
>>75616085
Can matter be measured in the absence of time? No, because it takes time to measure something.
>>75614402
Being compassionate is as important to God's nature as being the creator of the universe. If the creator of the universe is not compassionate, then it is not God.
That's my explanation anyways. It seems strange that God would create the universe and then not care about what is in that universe, even the smallest elements.
>>75616080
We'll eventually push back against semites so hard that they'll get annihilated forever.
Might as well be thorough.
>>75616073
ALSO, when you realize that God is the one behind all the good things we have, you are naturally driven to look to him when you desire more good things.
Saturn is time.
He controls our life. We are slaves.
>>75615903
>t. i conveniently disregard staples of western philosophical thought when it suits my "argument"
Any interesting books you guys have about theology? I'm readying Summa Theologica and I'm interested by City of God, and I was wondering if there was any particular author I should look for aside of Augustine and Aquinas.
>>75615143
If I live a truly good life, helping those in need and bringing happiness to those around me and God thinks I still should suffer for eternity because I couldn't believe a guy came back from the dead, then fuck him. I was good when it mattered.
>>75615429
>the atoning sacrifice is so that some people will get to receive God's grace
But they don't deserve to receive God's grace, even if Jesus sacrifices for them. THEY did the sin, so THEY should be separated from God, which is the punishment for the "transgression".
Literally any other outcome is amoral and unethical. God's court seems like it is run by the mafia, because it has a corrupt sense of accountability and justice.
>>75616132
God is not subject to the commandments he gave us, sir. Therefore he cannot be flawed because he is not bound by any law. Do you understand?
>>75605585
>le first year philosophy student
I'm sick of you fuckheads
>>75616486
Jealousy is a flaw regardless of commandments or rules.
>>75615777
no you cant
2 Peter 3 is from new testament and is about the old testament
>Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men
>>75616486
This. Good job leaf. Many people - even purported Christians - fail miserably to understand that God is on an entirely different moral level. He is accountable ultimately to no one but Himself.
>>75616386
The problem is that the article you lead me to was an article about the Oxford Dictionary itself, not an article about Oxford making claims that Causation always existed with evidence to back it up. Please try again.
>>75614991
in my world view, i believe the the fear of the lord is beginning of knowledge, and its the christian God, certain things are revealed to us with a way we can know it is certain ie logic, and if this is true that God reveals things to you in a way that you can be certain, than it is a personal God not a deistic God
>>75615516
Are you just pretending to be a caricature of an atheist or is this genuine?
>>75607052
>morrakiu
IT'S LIKE ANUDDA SHOAH
>>75616633
read all of them, i simply took you to the top of the list
>>75615120
But what if somebody else volunteered to do the time for that person
>>75615617
The early church maintained centralization and authority through the passing down of the authority of the apostles. This apostolic succession is what defines Coptics, Catholics, and Orthodoxy. Coptics came from one bishop that disagreed with an early church council and went and kept his group with him and east and west kingdoms that Christianity centered around over time split over (mainly) the practical power of the different seats of the apostles. They both agreed that the seat of the apostle Peter had primacy over the others but the western kingdom thought that the seat of Peter had unique powers in its office over the other ones and the eastern kingdom thought all office were, in a practical sense, equal to one another and that the primacy of Peter's office was one of respect. "First among equals".
The seat of Peter is what the western kingdom (Rome) would call the papacy and the man in the office, the pope.
Protestantism came in reaction to the bad actions of the church at one point and attempted to restore the faith's principles to accuracy. Having no faith in the apostolic line's teachings or traditions they stuck to what they could see as solid: Scripture. And so they focused on scripture and independently researched it so to cause a reformation of the faith away from the church which they disdained. This led to Christianity in the west as you see now. Protestantism led toa massive shift in how foundational elements of Christianity were perceived in the west too.
>>75615609
Thread is actually shit. Abandon ship.
>>75616731
The irony in the text of that image is lost on you it seems.
>>75616444
I love reading sermons from 17th century England. 2000 preachers were forced into 'underground' preaching because they wouldn't submit to the monarchy's rules for preachers. Look up 'final sermons of non conformist preachers england august 1642'. It's in pdf form on archive.org I believe.
>>75616444
I'd imagine neo-scholastics and the desert fathers? I could give names.
>>75616809
Courts don't work like that, senpai
>>75613682
If kek is the answer, then why did he not give you (his supposed emissary) dubs?
>>75615385
okay then, im gonna keep proclaiming the Gospel then, you just eat drink and be marry.
>>75616278
>absence of time
This is what I'm trying to explain to you.
There is no "absence of time", it is only impossible to quantify in the absence of matter, because you need matter to change states in order to sort out the amount of time it took to do so.
The problem with the Big Bang model is that it holds many assumptions about matter to be consistent through the expansion, but the closer the model gets to predicting the singularity being condensed to an infinitesimal point, the less certainty we have that the assumptions hold true. We just have nothing else to go by, and something has to account for the average velocity of the surrounding celestial objects.
>>75616566
Who are we, totally depraved humans, to judge what is flawed?
>>75615445
do you beleive you are a sinner?
>>75616667
Well can you provide evidence for that beyond it clicking with you?
If Satan is aware that he will be thrown into the pit for eternal torment, so why does he keep doing the things he's doing?
My opinion: God's will is forcing him to do these things.
>>75616817
i dont know i just posted a picture with a pink unicorn
>>75614956
>jewish fairy tales in the "non-canon but still appreciated for what it is" section of the Bible
>>75617008
Because it has negative effects, duh.
>>75615617
reformed Baptist here, catholic church teaches a cucked doctrine, non biblical
>>75617066
He wants to. You can want to do a whole lot of things that are bad for you, and act on those desires.
>>75616904
He did: >>75613377
This is a high energy thread, he can't just focus on me alone.
>>75615809
are you a christian?
>>75615836
i didnt know atheists believed in pink unicorns?
>>75617066
That is a very good point if a man is evil and he can become good again , why cant satan?
>>75617289
I was mocking you
>>75617243
Yep.
Which is why I can't possibly be a determinist.
>>75616678
I'm agnostic.
I perceive questions like this in terms of likelihood.
>>75617194
So he's wise enough to deceive the whole world into thinking he doesn't exist, but not wise enough to not act on things that will not benefit him at all in the end? lel
>>75617297
Exactly. This is the one question that Christian's cannot seem to answer when I ask.
NEW THREAD:
>>75617426
NEW THREAD:
>>75617426
NEW THREAD:
>>75617426
NEW THREAD:
>>75617426
>>75616871
I'll try finding it tomorrow, sounds interesting.
>>75616895
Neo-scholaticism is probably more up my alley, mostly due to their ties to Aquinas. I'll take any name I can, really, it's an interesting subject on its own right.
>>75615734
no, your kike war god doesn't exist, so there's no "judgement" to escape. get gassed, kike wannabe
>>75617411
More people in the world don't know me than people who don't know God. Am I deceiving them by virtue of not moving my body to appear right in front of them all?
>>75616453
if i got a speeding ticket, and i go to the court, and i cant pay the fine, is it lawful for some one else to pay that fine for me?
>>75617411
Also
>assuming you know what will or won't benefit God
That's pretty fucking absurd.
>>75617047
By biblical standards I certainly am. Why?
>>75616900
for fines it does, and your sin is like a debt to God, so Jesus pays for the sindebt of the elect, than there debt is paid
>>75617766
You must have the reading comprehension of a spade. I was referring to Satan being a total dickhead. He is 100% and fully aware that he is going to be severely punished for his actions yet he does these things anyway. He's like a fucking child. Wasn't he made perfect or something?
>>75617701
>Am I deceiving them by virtue of not moving my body to appear right in front of them all?
Poor analogy.
The fate of their eternal soul doesn't rest on them acknowledging your existence by your divine declaration.
And if someone told me you were a real person instead of a storybook character for shitposting on 4chan, I'd doubt it too.
>>75617065
without God, your world view is reduced to absurdity.
>>75617948
If you thought Satan seemed childish, wait until it occurs to you that God spends his eternal existence playing with legos.
>>75617350
why?
>>75617379
so are you saved by your own doings, or by the doings of Jesus?
>>75617948
I thought you were talking about God. I'm on multiple conversations at the moment, so my bad kagaroo-cunt. There's nothing perfect about anything with a will that isn't God.
If God told me I would be tortured for all eternity if I did obey Him, but He wanted me to obey Him, I would still do it. Being "punished" or "not-punished" really has nothing to do with whether something is good or bad. Something is either in concordance with God's Will (good) or isn't.
>>75617594
God exists and you know it.
>>75617885
so what can you do to remitt your sins?
>>75617982
That's a poor rejection of the analogy, since you're quite literally just making an appeal to the "significance" or weight of the things being compared, not that how they're being compared is actually wrong.
You can doubt whatever you like - I doubt everything except the fact that there are thoughts.
>>75617516
Responded to you in the next thread.
>>75618176
God's Grace is the only way to be saved. He doesn't have to give that to us, but He does if only we ask. So a qualification is, indeed, that you do ask.
>>75618469
can someone who is dead in their sins ask to be saved without being influenced by the holy spirit?
>>75618384
I guess you're right, then.
It's not wrong, but I would call you an asshole if you held the fate of everyone's eternal soul in your hands and made the demand that everyone not only acknowledge you but praise you, with threats of punishment for all who did not.
Of course, I have this fetish for undermining authority figures, so there's that.
