Think laying off all the burger flippers and truck drivers will be a good thing? Think again. Did you seriously expect a large portion of the population to just except starving to death? This is your answer. No job, no school, nothing but sitting back and collecting enough money to live a comfortable life with. Who is going to pay for it? You! Yes you with the higher end job making $80k+ a year. Maybe that extra car or pool in the back hard is worth it to you to have to suffer 40+ hours a week while basic income recipients cruise through life with no worries while your boss is hounding you for that report, or you having to pour in another dozen hours this week for that small business of yours. At least you don't have to pay workers since everything is automated right? Oh I know the world is unfair! But you can't think of that now, one of your automatic burger flippers is acting up again. Better hurry and get that fix while your former employees with nothing but free time line up hungry, but full of money...YOUR money.
>>75023858
Whats your job, op?
>>75023858
They should have educated themselves and learned a marketable skill.
Yep, they can starve to death. ITT it would make our cities safer in the long run.
>>75024381
>muh marketable skills
>muh education
>I AM doing okay so its YOUR problem
The world doesn't revolve around you fuck stick. There are only so many jobs and most experts agree that automation will displace a large portion of the workforce, way more than that could easily move to another job. They aren't going to starve, they are going to take your money to live.
>>75023858
As population increases year over year and technology obsoletes more jobs year over year, a wellfare state with unconditional basic income is inevitable. The other alternative--letting people just get more and more poor--is too risky. It's all risk-reward. Comfortable idiots who won't revolt is the ideal.
>>75023858
>Starving to death
>America
So we give people money to eat and do nothing but fuck all day?
What about sustainability?
Think of resources, think of garbage, think of everything.
>>75023858
At least my job is secure within the time frame of my retirement.
>>75024717
>Comfortable idiots who won't revolt is the ideal.
I am sure you want a nice docile group of millions of people to just sit there and starve to death because they have no job but it isn't going to happen.
>>75024874
too. fucking. bad. This is the end resolve of automation. You think it is glorious that burger flippers are out on their ass? While they aren't going to take starving to death with no job prospects.
>>75023858
Find another job you lazy fuck you're not entitled to shit
>>75025030
>Find another job
>when the job market is already almost impenetrable for higher skilled jobs
>When automation will close off more jobs while raising the demand
l o l
Just say what you mean.
>I know millions of people will starve to death and I am ok with it as long as I am comfortable
>>75025000
Fuck off with your entitlement, get a job that won't be made redundant like the rest of us. Invest enough to be retired by 40 with a nice passive income of $100,000+. Only fucking brain dead idiots find themself in that position.
>>75025374
There
are
not
enough
jobs
to
go
around
>>75025481
Fucking move then. There is always work it just might not be where you want to live. Your totally ignoring the point of making your self redundant proof. Get that job now, don't sit there bitching.
>>75025623
you are missing the point of the discussion.
This is about the population as a whole not isolated individuals
>>75025623
>muh bootstraps
>>75025623
this >>75025665
But maybe we can have the millions of jobless move into Australia where there sounds like there are plenty of jobs to go around. I hope you got those spiders under control.
>>75023858
Make it require either work or well-documented volunteering with a nonprofit or government agency.
> But people can't get jobs; they will starve.
Come join my non-profit ditch-digging operation.
Problem solved.
It is absolutely shameful that we currently economically torture the working poor with threats of all sorts of horrible things happening to them in a climate in which we are actively and intentionally destroying decent jobs. It is shameful that our welfare programs are so complex that they _encourage_ only welfare queens to use them; the paperwork takes too long for the ordinary down-on-his-or-her-luck worker to use them. It is shameful that our current programs have a 'cliff' that discourages working harder. Basic income has none of these problems, and should replace all welfare programs except disability (for people who cannot work) which must in turn be purged of fraud.
>>75023858
If you really think the elite won't kill off the eaters when they're done with us you're smoking crack bud.
>>75025374
>Get a job that won't be made redundant
>your job
>watch as your salary drops from 80k to 50k to 30k in 15 years because everyone is going into your non-redundant field.
KEK
>>75024550
>muh entitlement
>>75026143
>not starving to death is entitlement
>>75024918
Typical baby boomer. Benefiting on the way up and on the way down, sticking the future with the tab.
has anyone in this thread, yes both sides, done any research on this issue?
how much would be necessary to survive? would simply chopping up current entitlements and giving everyone the same slice of pie be enough?
>>75025374
your country's pop. is literally less than a tenth the size of ours, you don't know shit
>>75024874
Simple enough: give the money to the garbage collector, too. Then people will make more money by being garbage collectors than by sitting on their asses. Hell, even I would do that if it paid better than doing nothing and I didn't have better prospects.
>>75025481
No.
There
Are
Way
Too
Much
People
>>75026430
Yes, almost. Might need 10-20% more, depending on the amount in question and on qualifying conditions. But the amount is comparable, for the U.S. at least. It would be enough to live with your parents or in a tiny capsule apartment. Enough to not be homeless or starve. Working literally any job would improve your standard of living, because you still get the money unconditionally -- no 'welfare cliff' discouraging work, no 300-hours-of-paperwork ensuring that only welfare queens ever get welfare. Much cleaner. Can immediately fire 50k+ government benefits administrators as well.
>>75023858
How does it go down when people don't have any money or support now? They don't rally for free money programs or starve, they just eat out of the trash, move, beg, or get some sort of meager welfare if they can.
>>75023858
Great. As automation replaces labour we move towards a post-scarcity economy. What's the problem here?
>>75023858
Eventually the machines will be doing most of the work so the'll be no choice.
>>75026550
Nah. There's enough resources. They're just being allocated inefficiently. Market forces are great and all but sometimes don't have desired results
>>75025360
>Just say what you mean.
>I know millions of people will starve to death and I am ok with it as long as I am comfortable
I'm absolutely not ok with millions dying; we need billions to die. The world can comfortably fit 3 billion, 5 billion with proper management and technology. We need to cut the population by half.
>>75026697
I was kind of thinking the top 1% pick up the tab
>>75026671
the us is not/should not be the first place to do this. you should start in a smaller place like canada or a european country
>>75026823
This exactly. Per capita GDP in the U.S. is >50k. Median salary is 26k. Do the fucking math.
>>75026831
OK.
Don't be part of the problem, be part of the solution.
Go an hero then.
>>75026831
Your aim is off; you hit the business district. Now the whole fucking country will starve. Dipshit. Should have aimed for Queens.
>>75026867
>>75026867
not anywhere with a lot of brown people though, maybe mexico or brazil but nowhere else
>>75023858
I have drove for a living for close to 20 years. It pays well enough to stay happy. When automation kicks in, I will take the 12 months ei and train for your job. I will be willing to take a little less than you are currently making as well.
>>75023858
Legislation will pass regarding driverless vehicles that they must have a sober person in the driver seat at all times
>>75023858
In your fantasy, you are eating at a fastfood joint.
>>75023858
economists get in here
what effect would universal basic income have on the economy. what would happen to housing and rent prices. milton friedman called this the "negative income tax" btw
also ontarians what is your perspective on this
>>75026708
it is the first step to post scarcity, but we are lacking a few key things. Food isn't an issue, as the midwest of the US can feed the entire world if it had the mindset to do so.
Religion? Usually just a justification for being right over someone else, giving you the 'right' to take their shit
We'd need to harness some sort of near infinitely renewable source of energy, that can be used by EVERYTHING. Thorium, He-3, whathaveyou
there's 2 issues with that. 1: how do you develop it and 2: will the powers at be allow it? they're quite comfy sitting on our backs
>>75023858
They won't starve to death.
They're not in any danger of that.
The real problem is simply this-
"Idle hands are the devil's workshop."
Bored people are loose cannons. Every single problem EVER is amped by an order of magnitude by boredom and lack of things to keep oneself busy.
This is a fact of human psychology, and holy fuck will it create a society of horrors.
>>75023858
>everybody gets $20,000
Who the fuck do we get to pay for it?
>>75023858
>Did you seriously expect a large portion of the population to just except starving to death?
ab so lutely
>>75026850
The stumbling block for those sorts of proposals usually comes down to the fact that the 1% have disproportionate influence in government and media. In many ways the state exists to protect wealth.
Jokes on them, I'll kill myself before I ever accept UBI or reparations.
If it's implemented, I'll put a bullet in my brain.
>>75027439
people would probably just take up new hobbies. we're talking about first world countries here not shitholes like the congo
>>75024381
Thats what they are going to do retard.
Being able to drive a car used to be something very few people could do. Over time the supply of most skill sets increases, usually at a rate faster than society can demand that skill set.
Theirs also an effect where the lower rungs of society do easiest work they can find for money, eventually everything is going to become a "low skill" job.
>>75027557
why not now??
>>75026831
>Hello Georgia Guidestones/Rosecrucian shill
>>75027803
this only works up to a certain point. it's easy to learn how to drive compared to going to a university
>>75027391
The only way to pay for it would be a massive tax hike across the board because not just welfare recipients get BUI, everyone does, hence "universal"
It will also strongly disincentivize work because why the fuck would you go slave away for at least 8 hours a day when you can spend that time doing whatever you want
A lot of people will continue to work if they like what they do or their work is lucrative but for the average blue collar worker and white collar drone well they'll see it is a free ride
>>75027709
>people would probably just take up new hobbies.
That's not how it works.
That's NEVER how it works, and every prison in the world with a communal population forces their inmates to work for that reason.
People ALWAYS run into trouble, regardless of intelligence, economy, ecology, or ethnicity, when they don't have shit to do.
Hobbies are sought only when desired, not spontaneously when bored.
Unless you're ready to let society do lots of coke and sex and party indefinitely, you do NOT want unemployment. You wanna get that number as low as possible.
It would do so well for so many people here to take some study into psychology and sociology. I know those fields get flack, but under the leftist bullshit there's legit numbers and data that can teach you a LOT about why shit is the way it is and how people will act individually and as groups when faced with various conditions.
Take up pharmacology while you're at it to learn how the brain ticks.
Could save your life.
>>75024874
Sure, but we also give them drugs to keep them docile. Then over the course of a few decades the "poor" will die out leaving the rich nobility, and the technicians to service the machinery.
Half of the existing jobs will be automated within 15 - 20 years. UBI is going to happen.
>>75027439
Keep them doped up, and docile. A few extra chemicals in the right combinations, introduced into the food supply should do the trick.
>>75024381
kike
>>75028172
>The only way to pay for it would be a massive tax hike
Wrong. Do some research.
>>75027523
Not 20k. More like 8k. Enough to not starve, if you live with your parents or in a capsule apartment. But little enough that getting literally any job would still improve your standard of living. Eventually, as jobs become more rare and real GDP continues to increase, we increase the amount. Or at least peg it to inflation. It's unconditional, so it doesn't go away when you get a job; there is no 'welfare cliff' like in the current systems.
>>75028631
If I got UBI I would just spend all my time golfing and fishing
I doubt most people would become drug addicts if left to their own devices
>>75028757
Where is the money going to come from then?
>>75028845
t. Appalachia
>>75028890
I don't see how this is any better than the current system
>>75028897
Eliminating most/all existing welfare programs. And also firing all the bureaucrats who oversee them. There will be tens of billions of dollars in efficiency savings alone, not to mention far less stress and fear about what happens if you lose your job. Income crap on just the bare minimum, so you'd still want to get another job ASAP, but it wouldn't be zero.
>>75024550
>My parents fucked and didn't abort me but don't love me enough to support me, wah
>>75028898
Not everyone in Appalachia is a pilled-out hillbilly
>>75028897
Taxes can stay the same, with out having to pay humans for labor the business owners and corporations will make more money so it will balance out.
>>75028845
Same here. I'd have to learn how to play golf though.
>>75028987
(a) Current system disincentivizes work, because if you work you lose your benefits, (b) current system takes hundreds of hours of paperwork to get benefits, so only long-term welfare queens ever get most types of welfare and it does nothing for the ordinary down-on-their-luck worker, (c) ability to fire lots of government bureaucrats currently running the existing complicated programs, (d) only 1 program instead of hundreds of them, so people don't miss out by not knowing about them (related to (b)), (e) amount low enough that it is still worthwhile to get a job, but high enough not to end up homeless (might still have to move to cheaper location though).
>>75029031
>firing all the bureaucrats who oversee them
Those bureaucrats will be overseeing UBI
If you lose your job you can claim unemployment and then there's welfare for those who are just straight up jobless and always have been
Sounds exactly like UBI
>>75023858
basic income is a kike scam.
its literally just communism lite.
With basic income comes, you guessed it, population control.
Birth license. State sponsored sterilization. Mandatory education for potential parenting. Applications to birth.
The lowest of the low will work for the government (as usual) processing your paperwork. There will just be less and less as the gradient of stupidity shifts.
It will happen otherwise the mass of worthless idiots will grow by leaps and bounds and the system will collapse of scarcity...
>>75028172
Work is only necessary because as yet we're not sufficiently automated to eliminate it. Other than necessity, what's the point of labour? Work for the sake of work is an incredibly unhealthy attitude.
>>75028172
but at the same time those jobs would probably increase in demand and wages to the point where people would want to apply for them
>>75028189
i'm not saying that having nothing to do for long periods doesn't have adverse psychological effects. i'm well aware that many people need a sense of purpose and keeping busy. you have to come to terms that there are degenerates and whether they're employed or unemployed wouldn't change that for some
>>75029371
Oh god the old conspiritard standby - population control
>>75029253
What is there to oversee? You just make sure not to mail checks to dead people. The current system requires verifying a dozen different things for every single different program and there are over 100 separate programs. That's a lot of administrative waste.
...honestly, if I received UBI I'd go back to university or try a trade school and increase my skill base for finding a nice job to work at, and be able to focus on my studies this time instead of pulling a 9-to-5 simultaneously.
Or, better yet, start putting out a business and try to innovate new products/services. Because, y'know, the inherent danger to one's livelihood from failed business attempts is no longer an issue, since UBI would cover your ass.
Also many people want a standard of living above UBI. I'm not one of them, of course, perfectly happy at that level, but I'm certainly surrounded by said people, and none of them are the 1%.
>>75029372
Further progress. I for one am an automator. For now at least. Until the machines take over that as well, at which point their owners will own society. You'd better make sure we can still control them at that point.
>>75029450
i like to think if it does happen, universities will swing hard to the right as most of them are their on gibs anyway, and now that they don't HAVE to work, the only people there are the ones that want to learn/train
>>75029071
>, with out having to pay humans for labor the business owners and corporations will make more money so it will balance out.
So there will have to be a massive tax on business owners and corporations
They'll flee to more business-friendly environs
>>75029109
Do it, get a couple lessons just to get started
Golf is really top tier when it comes to hobbies
>>75029223
I fail to see how UBI will disincentivize work less than welfare especially since you know it's always there for you
Having a bad day at your shit job? Just walk out, you've got that govt check coming anyway, sure it might not be much but it's enough to live on
>Burgers and leaves commenting this much on a clearly bait thread
This is the future you chose
>>75029450
Finally, some fucking sense ITT.
They can suck dicks. For money.
>people don't understand comparative advantage vs absolute advantage
>people think that anyone is going to cry over useless entry level job having plebs being part of a market disruption
Reddit faggots looking for any excuse to sit home and be leeches
>implying that the Georgia guide stones wasn't real
Have fun faggots we illuminati nao
>>75029604
It won't be enough to live on at your current standard of living, or enough to save any money at all. It will be enough to survive. If you are minimum-wage and get a raise, it will be an actual raise -- under the current system, when you get a raise, the government takes it away by reducing benefits, so there is no incentive to work harder currently. It creates a "welfare trap". This effect disappears if the program is unconditional. I don't see what you are not understanding, though.
>>75029539
There's always hobbies and for-pleasure activities. If I didn't have to work for the rest of my life I'd still tinker with computers and offer to help with computers because I enjoy it. But not being on a deadline with a boss and a wage and scheduled hours and clothes etc...
>>75029380
How are businesses going to be able to hire new workers when they're getting taxed out the ass for UBI?
>>75029429
You've got to make sure people are getting their checks, and to prevent fraud, you can be damn sure people will find a way to scam the system
And then what happens during economic downturn and there's simply not enough to go around anymore?
The govt always creates massive bureaucracies surrounding everything, it would be no different under UBI
>>75029618
What happens to people who lose their jobs in Korea, Korea-bro? The last I heard you had one of the highest work-stress rates in the world and one of the highest suicide rates as well. They are related.
No faggot in this thread doesn't get that this will create 500 million people in harmony with nature is entirely cucked
>>75029738
And I forgot people keep falling into the labor lump fallacy
If just one person can give me an example where automation led to masses of people starving in the streets instead of automation being a multiplier of productivity I will buy you a beer
>>75029843
how many times must this be stated: taxes do not have to be increased for this
>>75029843
how would a business operate without workers
>>75029746
How much is enough to survive?
Is this going to pay mortgages too or just basic housing?
This is really beginning to sound more and more like welfare
>>75029924
>taxes do not have to be increased for this
how much is everyone getting?
whos getting it?
where does the money come from?
>>75029843
It is far easier to scam the current system. There are fucking manuals for how to do it.
>What is deficit spending
Welfare has always been counter-cyclical. The *current* system is more prone to problems because the total payments *increase* during a downturn, whereas with UBI they stay constant so it is actually less stressful for government budgets.
The bureaucracy around the current programs is larger because they are more complex.
At this point I assume you are just trolling.
>>75029890
Uhh yeah, not having automation create a glut of useless people. Sterilize by social conformity. Pay people more welfare who don't have kids.
>>75026429
I'm 26.
I'll be retired in my 40s because you retire in 20 years in the military.
>>75023858
>And truck drivers
They make good money for not having a degree
>>75029429
>What is there to oversee
Lel so naive
You think social security checks mail themselves out? It's the nature of govt to bloat budgets and have committees who oversee committees
>>75030017
The money comes from cutting all the existing welfare programs and replacing them with this single, more efficient one. Even Friedman supported this type of approach.
>>75029924
There is nowhere near enough govt waste going on for 350 million people to get $20000/year just cause
>>75029988
They would use the bare minimum amount
There would be massive hiring freezes
No reason to bring in new talent when anything they generate is gonna get heavily taxed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoqrY8F7r0c
listening to this, seems good so far.
Put 1.5x speed for your sake.
>>75030045
Look to south America or eastern europe. I'm buying a bait an tackle shop in Nicaragua . Still have enough to live like a king.
T. E-8 at 23 yrs.
>>75030028
>It is far easier to scam the current system
As opposed to your utopian system where nothing bad will ever go wrong and there won't be any blowback
>>75030122
UBI isn't the same thing as a negative income tax nigger
>>75023858
Fuck off ,OP. Minimum wage jobs are minimum wage for a reason. Get a fucking skill or degree and net a higher income job you fucking commie.
>>75030117
So roll it into Social Security then, and axe everything else. If you kill 100 complicated programs and create 1 simple one, your admin costs go down. Have you ever run a business or a division of one? You would know this if you had. Even my friends in government have been able to fire people when old programs were axed.
>>75029855
We have a steadily decreasing population. Most economists project that within 10 years most of the fat cats and white collar workers will retire and it will be easier to get jobs.
I daytrade and live that NEET not really life. My life is a meme.
>>75024381
>my "marketable skills" will save me from automation and low wage immigration!
kek the delusion
>>75023858
Welcome to middle game. Socialism will take hold of western civilizations and will progress into technocracies, as we are set to see unimaginable technological gains in the next 50-80 years. The bleeding edge experts in fields which make miraculous leaps (physics, chemistry, artificial intelligence, robotics, biochemistry and DNA) will assume control of nations. These technocrats will put large amounts of resources into furthering technology and a final boom will happen in which humans become completely independent of one another by assistance of technology. Those are the end days, as the technocrats will kill everyone off aside from a small, select group to continue the species in a technologically created utopia of perpetual life.
I won't be around to tell you I told you so, but just so you guys know :)
>>75030211
Maybe if the govt didn't artificially create a wage floor we wouldn't have so much unemployment in the first place
>>75030028
How can you maintain UBI during a downturn?
>>75030132
The amount should not be 20k. It should be more like 8k. Troll. You aren't even reading anything and your points never change.
>>75030203
It is if there is a work requirement, nigger. The point is social cohesion; work has to be part of it. It just doesn't need to be a job, per se (though people would be motivated to try to get one, since it would make more money for them that way).
>>75030244
That sounds great, just have to find that magic wand that makes everything work perfectly with no hiccups and we will be set
>no govt program gas ever been run efficiently, but this time its different for no reason. :^)
>>75023858
You are asking the wrong questions OP. people with the ability to suceed always will suceed no matter what unless they are living in somewhere not under democracy/ capitalism.
Those people are few and far between. The rest are supposed to die out but we have literal roaches that wont die when they are supposed to.
>>75024717
Also, you need people with money to buy your products, so having a large part of the population on the streets starving and with no money to buy stuff is pointless
>>75023858
>suffer 40+ hours a week
I love my job, and I support a basic income so long as it's for everyone, it replaces the welfare state ENTIRELY, and it also comes with some changes to the way taxes are collected(I'd prefer they were consumption based and flat, but if that's not feasible I'd be okay with a flattening of the income tax structure.)
>>75030132
then why would you even bring that up. if a business' costs outweigh its benefits then they'll forego the opportunity. they wouldn't have thought about hiring in the first place. but there would still be demand for their services and once benefits = costs then they will hire to divvy the workload
>>75030246
Hmm I hope that happens to us? What do you trade? I am also a trader, though mine is all automated.
>>75026143
>>75029060
Kids, come on, it's way past bed time. At least go to reddit if you want to strawman and circle jerk about nothing.
>>75030390
> the current status quo with over 100 programs is totally better than only having 1; all change is bad
>>75024717
>As population increases year over year and technology obsoletes more jobs year over year
There isn't a set number of jobs and every time something is automated it permanently shrinks forever, read a book nigger
wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy
>>75030476
No it doesn't replace the welfare state first you have to get rid of welfare and have businesses with enough jobs willing to pay that amount and hope the retail and rental market doesn't adjust prices to the obvious gain on consumer wealth
>>75030286
How can we maintain current programs during a downturn? Their payments increase during crashes. UBI payments don't increase during crashes. It is therefore easier to maintain UBI during a crash than it is to maintain the current system.
>>75030287
8k isn't enough to pay for a home
>>75030642
what gain of consumer wealth? the poorest are already getting handouts
>>75026831
Oh, the overpopulation myth again.
Someone has believed all the garbage Bill Gates and his cronies say...
>>75030476
Also this.
>>75030530
Way to greentext something I didn't say or wasn't arguing about I have truly been painted into a corner :^)
>>75030117
So use one of those debit card things, or require direct deposit. You know that would be great actually it would teach poor people some fucking money sense, like put your damn money in a bank or credit union instead of FUCKING PAYING to get your god damn check cashed. that's INSANE, no wonder these people have no money.
>>75030287
My points haven't changed because they still stand
Everything UBI revolves around is "trust me there's enough govt waste to pay for it and it will only incentivize work" when there's no evidence to show for this other than your own conjecture
>>75030723
Well I'd everyone is getting 15 an hour words gonna get around fast and prices will increase to keep the welfare state and make 15 an hour the new 7 an hour. Ie. Australia for example.
>>75030725
I believe in the overpopulation maymay.
Please provide me with links and resources that conflict that point of view
>>75030691
You shouldn't be able to buy a home from UBI. That would be insane. It should be enough to rent a tiny capsule-apartment and buy basic food to cook. That's all. Anything more would result in massive increases in lazy people not working.
>>75028172
For an "economist" you seem very short sighted when it comes to economy.
>>75030406
>he thinks money is the end game
lol idiot. also you don't even realize that the masses are indeed getting ready to revolt
>>75030870
so there's no gain of wealth, there's just inflation
>>75030642
I've heard this argument before and I just don't buy it for retail. It MIGHT distort the the rental market a bit, but they don't have an incentive to drive out paying customers unless it can be shown that people who are just living off their BI are worse tenants than those with a job.
>>75030483
With low taxes businesses are incentivized to grow
With high taxes they are not
Assuming a UBI of 8k going to 350 million people, that's a spending of $2.8*10^12 per year
There is nowhere near that amount of spending going on in current welfare bureaucracy
>>75030792
They can already do that but they don't because beauracracy is inherently inneficient , as is any time where you're spending someone else's money
>>75030937
Exactly so what's the point anyways? Lowe taxes to create a haven for business to florish, better labor will be compensated as such
>>75023858
making menial jobs obsolete is a good thing. This already happened with other automation in the past, people still found jobs.
>>75023858
Basic income is fine, if they are sterilized first.
>>75030122
You didnt answer my question, answer them you dumb nigger.
>>75023858
who do you think will define "comfortable"?
kek
>>75030937
... which would still stimulate consumer spending and economic growth-- unless caused by resource shortages like the 70s anyway. Part of the reason the economy is shit right now is that we are a consumer economy but most people have no disposable income to spend. Inflation, historically, has been one of the only socially tolerated means of redistributing wealth to get the system running again. Massive government spending is another, but that increases debt; inflation decreases it.
>>75030983
>tfw I live in a town that's 60% government employees and a 1 bedroom is 1400 a month
Shill elsewhere bro the housing and retail jew exists
>>75023858
>You! Yes you with the higher end job making $80k+ a year.
It'll actually be paid for by corporations -- who will become the primary taxpayers.
>>75031011
>70% of U.S. total federal spending is welfare.
>>75031215
Not suppose to be greentext. Greater than 70%.
>>75031037
UBI will also take most of the risk of starting a business off the table.
There are people who will do great things when given the chance. how many potential engineers and artists and the like are stuck in the poverty trap because they can't take a risk else they starve to death?
>>75031049
>people still found jobs.
yeah, but there were places for people to go. Advances in agriculture resulted in farmers moving into industry, Advances in industry resulted in people moving to services. No services are going to be automated but there is an industry for people to go to.
>>75031240
Post source.
>>75031275
That isn't because there's no new industries, but because the human mind itself is being recreated.
It's what luddites still can't understand.
They think humans are special snowflakes, that a robot cannot do the same things a human can, because because.
>>75030659
The total amount of UBI will far exceed current welfare expenditure including bureaucracy
>>75031126
>how much is everyone getting?
about 8k/year. maybe slightly more.
>whos getting it?
adults who do not receive disability benefits. required to work or volunteer to receive it, unless on disability benefits.
>where does the money come from?
cutting almost all existing welfare programs.
Automation causes short term labor shocks but it doesn't cause mass unemployment in the long run
ITT its 1793 in Georgia and were arguing for basic income because once the cotton gin kills all those jobs you're never going to see them again and people will be starving in the streets
Oh wait instead automation caused a giant spike in productivity and output of cotton and the world kept on ticking because the economy doesn't give a shit if some no skill worker has his employment disrupted
>>75030890
So why not just give this to people on welfare now?
Why make it universal?
>>75031011
There isn't 350 million people in the US, and the basic income doesn't go to people under 18.
Taxes would have to be increased and we would need to print more money (inflation can be dealt with) to pay for UBI, however unless you were upper class, you would overall gain more money from basic income than you are taxed.
>>75031353
Here's one example
http://images.dailykos.com/images/78137/large/FederalSpending.jpg?1397620572
>>75023858
>starving to death
>>75031257
Now I'm sure this is a reddit raid. This is not true, it stifles the free market because people with money will look elsewhere for more dynamic economies. Look at belarus, businesses are going to russia because lukashenka, bless his heart doesn't know how to do anything but tax people and redistribute wealth. Almost have the workforce works in Russia
>>75031240
Where are you getting your numbers from cause they aren't based in reality
>>75023858
Just means more people will have to pick up a brick on the Mexican payroll
>>75031390
>They think humans are special snowflakes, that a robot cannot do the same things a human can, because because.
Comparative advantage vs absolute advantage nigger, tell me why do people pay out the ass for hand stitched leather seats when a robot can make absolutely perfect stitching ? Why do we have two pilots in a plane when autopilot does everything for them? Why do people overpay for shitty coffee at Starbucks when the robot at McDonald's makes a cheaper faster better cup?
>>75031595
Half*
>>75031011
again, it wouldn't matter. the services or product would still be in demand other the business wouldn't even exist. again, we're talking about how you think nobody would want to work. but again, those jobs would still be in demand because people still need or want the services or products or else those businesses wouldn't exist in the first place. and those businesses would raise the wages enough so that people would want to apply for the jobs as long as the cost of doing so atleast equals the benefits and the businesses would obviously take overhead costs into account.
for the US it would be for more like 200 million people since only adults would receive the money
>>75031595
You can do it revenue-neutral by cutting most/all other welfare programs. As a side benefit, this would also simplify the tax code by eliminating the programs from it, and encourage higher education by allowing students to focus on studies. It would make the economy more dynamic, not less.
>>75031684
>McDonald's makes better coffee than Starbucks
>>75031595
Also, Russia is an absolute hellhole if you are not an oligarch or mafia. Think twice before wishing that on your country. Even my Russian friends are afraid to go back.
>>75031177
Move. I pay 700 a month for a nice 2 bedroom in the midwest.
>>75031812
they are both shit. but 1 buck a cup is better than 5
>>75031500
>we'll just print money to cover the shortfall and just play it by ear as we go along
O yeah cause that has a history of really working out well
>you would overall gain more money from basic income than you are taxed
Lmao
Is all of this money supposed to just fall out of the sky?
Even eliminating current govt waste it's nowhere near enough to pickup the shortfall
>>75025000
I'll be happy to let them wash my car for a few bucks.
>>75031545
So you also want to do away with social security and Medicaid here?
How in the absolute fuck are people supposed to afford medical care on UBI or are we also doing universal health care?
This is all sounds great and everything but money doesn't just grow on trees
>>75023858
>50% of the populous has an iq under 100
why do we need them again?
>>75025481
That's what they said when farming equipment replaced slave labor.
>>75031545
social security is a pyramid scheme, not welfare.
medicare is a kike scam, not welfare.
both of those rely on people having JOBS and paying into them through taxes.
with people being unemployed and getting free shit their income wont be anywhere near what they get now.
>>75031656
see
>>75031545
"Health" means Medicaid and Medicare.
"Veterans" includes "Veterans Income"
"Transportation" includes "transportation vouchers"
"Housing" includes Section 8.
"Food and Agriculture" includes food stamps.
The amounts in your chart are not being spent on the bureaucracies, you absolute idiot. They are being mailed out to people as checks and used to buy giveaways. Except the military, which is used to buy giveaways to defense companies and pay bureaucrats-- but also to fend off the rest of the world.
>>75031725
Why would they raise wages when taxes are going up?
>>75032015
In the current system killing medicare is untenable. If we fixed the damn health insurance market first then we could do it.
>>75032049
because then half of the remaining population would become under 100
>>75032056
And many americans still feel this was a mistake heh
>>75031743
>free college
Look at brazil
>simplified tax code
Taxing more doesn't equal simple
We're still the world's best economy barely compared to these liberal bastions of equality which have massive suicide rates and housing issues and rape issues. Why are you trying to race to the bottom? I've argued with your type before, my friends were the ones who wouldn't get blue collar jobs and accept their fate and have nothing to show. Just take a welding course at a community college and start at 18 an hour as an apprentice and work your way up
>>75023858
Technological advancement doesn't stop just because you think it's inconvenient for your pocket. It doesn't make sense, and you can't force, others to not use machines that are better suited for the task. You can complain all you want but it won't stop the inevitable.
>>75026276
People are more than welcome to plant some crops and farm enough land to feed themselves.
>>75032124
that's why you keep doing it.
until the 100 of the future is the 160 of now.
>>75023858
UBI is a good idea, but the first country to adopt it will be a migrant magnet. Putting it into action needs to be a joint action with closing a country's borders permanently.
>>75025481
Shoot yourself, millions of people are able to live great because they aren't lazy nigs like you who whine they don't get paid for existing
>>75031821
I'm showing that government doesn't help anything
>>75032015
In most countries, universal healthcare actually saves more money in spending than it costs in taxes. The U.S. has by far the most expensive healthcare systems in the world, but quality, waiting times, and paperwork are all worse than most of Europe and East Asia. But that is a separate discussion.
>>75032092
because the demand for their services or products could offset those taxes
>>75032070
It also includes a bunch of other shit like farm subsidies
And transportation vouchers are a tiny fraction of a percent of that
Most of that is road and bridge building
How can people afford healthcare on UBI?
>>75031820
I'm saying government intervention is best done very light
>>75032140
On whose land? =). Farmland costs millions of dollars per square mile, even in the Dakotas.
>>75032049
While half of me says they are useful for the shit tier jobs and maintaining a kitchen and garden, the other half says robots will soon be able to do a better job.
>>75023858
You don't produce anything, you just manage people's work from poorer countries. Also you sell resources, trick economy. That's all you do. Your job is cage mouse wheel.
>>75032259
UBI is supposed to cover the bare minimum meaning people won't be able to afford non essential goods
Let's say 240 million people were to receive $15,000 a year in basic income.
240000000 * 15000 = 3600000000000 ( 3 trillion 600 billion dollars)
You can pay for this by killing almost all existing welfare programs, increased taxation (primarily of the extreme rich), printing more money, and the lesser public cost regarding homelessness, crime, healthcare, etc.
In some regards this is a sham based off re-circulating fake money, but it's not any better right now.
>>75032276
the people who can't afford it already don't pay for it
>>75032136
>free college
Look at Germany. At least before the migrants. If you want to have a safety net, you can't allow mass immigration. Stupid EU bureaucrats.
Shills are getting better
The thing I dont agree with op is that we need INCOME for the defavored and poor. We shouldn t give money to the ones without a job but a basic house, food stamps and personal hygene items. This way we reduce the risk of people spending their money on shit like drugs booze and appliances they dont need (you dont need a tv to survive). Also I see a lot of shill buying into the overpopulation meme. We are curently getting close to the stagnation period of population growth and the only people who boost the statistics are the poor people from undeveloped 3rd world countries. Give every one a decent living standard and the population will go down quickly.
>>75032310
Wrong
Land is dirt cheap out west
Currently about $400/acre in wyoming
>>75032136
I am a software developer in a very niche part of the industry. I make >200k a year. I went to a top 5 school. My friends and I are probably going to end up automating away your job someday.
>>75032356
not all businesses are consumer-based and even so, people will spend money on stupid shit anyway especially in the case of 'free' money
>>75032445
The soil is not as good for farming. That is ranch land. Do you even agriculture?
>>75025881
nah mate new zealand is where it's at. Australia is shit don't come here.
>>75032356
That's why they will get jobs. To afford more than bare essentials. UBI should only cover bare essentials.
>>75032514
>The soil is not good for farming?
Source
Also Ranching is a vital part of agriculture
>>75032486
>people will spend money on stupid shit anyway especially in the case of 'free' money
This, the rule of life is you're never as careful when you're spending someone else's money
I done spent all my UBI on crack and now I cant afford rent, I'm jus a good boy, need mo money for dem programs
>>75032573
So why should it be given to people who can afford it on their own?
>>75032394
I agree but globalism won't allow that. I'll leave this here, next time you talk to a leftist wonder if this is not what's truly on their mind. I have to sleep I got to wake up in 5 hours. Take care
>>75032369
I think the amount should be lower and the number of people should be lower. There is a spectrum of possibilities, though.
>>75030263
Screencapped so I can shitpost /pol/ one last time when the end comes.
>>75023858
That's why they're gonna start WW3 and throw all the low-skill-having and good-for-nothing liberals who usually worked these jobs in the grinder.
Why do you think they want women to get enrolled in the draft now too?
And you won't get free handouts either. This would be like the previous world wars where most resources will be redirected to it, leaving little to nothing for social programs. You can choose from the following: die of starvation, get gunned down by the military or the police (for disobedience of any kind), or you fight (and possibly die) in some foreign land.
All because you wanted so much money than you're worth, that the companies replaced you with robots and touchscreens and are now pushing to get you all culled.
You better buy a gun now and learn how to use it, because you'll be needing it in the future, either as a soldier or to live off the land as some nomad hunter.
You made your bed. You go lie in it.
>>75028189
>people don't take up new hobbies.
i'm pretty much retired at 31 and so i've started making computer games because i needed a hobby...
>>75032593
I believe the original phrasing was "plant some crops".
>>75032140
Ranching also requires quite a lot more land for the same amount of food (meat) vs. planting corn/soybeans/etc. So you would need to buy more of it. Hence why it is cheaper; it is less productive.
>>75032573
>That's why they will get jobs. To afford more than bare essentials. UBI should only cover bare essentials.
So if I understand, were going to tax everybody more and take away an increasing amount of their earned money so we can then give it back to them in the form of UBI?
>>75032643
Globalism of some kind is of course inevitable. Ironically the people trying to stop globalism are inadvertently support political policies while will result in a breeding ground for the worst version of globalism.
>>75030263
I for one welcome the techo gods. May humanity ever fly into the stars and reach bounds beyond human understanding.
>>75032761
Still not seeing a source on this land being no good for farming
>>75023858
>Did you seriously expect a large portion of the population to just except starving to death?
No, I seriously expect the market to adapt like it always does you fucking Luddite. Go protest light bulbs or something.
>>75032784
Yes now you understand. The greater good awaits us all, comrade.
>>75032464
Ok bitch have fun training robots to interpret improper phase sequence coupled with bad operators and bad AI doing iso sync with an 75% power factor that the plant sees as acceptable
>>75032637
To prevent the "welfare cliff" problem that exists in the current system and disincentivizes work currently, to eliminate hundreds of hours of paperwork, to make sure everyone is covered instead of only urban welfare queens who know how to work the system, to make the spending less counter-cyclical and therefore easier to manage in budgets during recessions, etc. etc. All the reasons I listed that you skipped and didn't read.
>>75023858
patreon.com
kickstarter.com
youtube.com
The market has already shifted, you're just slow. There are more options than wage slavery.
>>75032872
Have you even been to Wyoming?
>>75028042
>it's easy to learn how to drive compared to going to a university
But all you have to do at a university any more is be perpetually offended at the smallest things.
Now try this on for size. Pic related.
>>75032951
MFW people are demanding UBI when you can literally make 6 figures playing vidya on twitch.tv
>>75030918
>the masses are indeed getting ready to revolt
i'll believe it when i see it.
>>75032627
> people spend money on usless shit
Thats why a succesfull welfare program should under no circumstances give money. Only tokens to be used on specific prodacts aka food stamps. Every fucking retard deserves a bed to sleep in a loo to shit in and food to not die. You want more go suck a dick or wash a car
>>75032865
Fuck off tent
>>75032925
I will have fun training genetic algorithms to automate the design issues you are currently solving. I've already done similar things before. You are not as invincible as you think.
>>75023858
>spend most of my free time lining up for food
>been about an hour now...
>get served cold peas and half of a pork chop
>still hungry after, but can't get more because wifes son still needs to eat
>pray that our bull lends us some sympathy points and takes us out to Denny's when he is finished.
Hmm... I think I'll take my wealthy ass life and keep laughing at cucks like you. But do keep trying to make yourself feel good about it... your shit life only makes mine feel better.
>>75032880
Can't wait for cunts like you to change your tune once it's your job that is lost, and then when you realize you can't even get a new one.
>>75032443
Part of the logic is that markets providing the same benefits such as food will be more efficient than stamps or bureaucracies producing goods, and that people can decide what the best way to use the money is.
For example I could spend the money to develop a vegetable garden, or pool the money with several other people and open a store. Otherwise the opportunity for any sort of social, economic or most other financial related movement would be very little, which would especially be an issue for America's "land of opportunity" angle if people were born, lived and died in government run homes eating government food with little opportunity for advancement.
Of course, mismanagement is a huge downside, and I imagine many would spend their money on garbage. I don't think there's any easy solution, and it will be a cause of a great deal of social change.
>>75026143
dude they will fucking kill you before they starve to death
you are the one that will be crying >muh entitlement right before you get your throat slit
>>75033095
well to be honest the best technology goes to power plants yet human interaction is still needed even with automation today
>>75032951
>>75033035
And yet you're not making hundreds of thousands off the internet.
It's not that easy
>>75033169
> the thief reveals his violent degenerate nature which he justifies through arguments which only make sense to his victim-mentality
>>75032833
Look at Japan. It didn't have to be this way.
Hell, look at Singapore. They only let in educated people for the track that leads to citizenship in a reasonable amount of time. As a result the country is disproportionately intelligent. Any kind of safety net policy needs to consider immigration policy, and vice versa.
>>75033253
people who don't have food don't care about arguments
either you pay them enough to live or die
>>75033213
Sure, granted. Just less of it over time.
>>75033243
I make well over 6 figures swing trading on securities markets.
Leftist cucks like you think guys like me are middle men who push paper around and leech off society, the reality is what we are doing is saving capital that was about to be lost forever.
Even short sellers have their place, they end up being the only buyers in the event of a financial crisis, mitigating the amount of damage done to the economy.
>>75033243
>Starting a new venture isn't easy
>Therefore I deserve gibsmedat instead
>>75033169
So you don't have an argument. You're just threatening everyone.
>If you don't pay for all this shit, I, or my constituents, will kill you
I hope they try libtard. The validation after years of calling you the authoritarians you really are would be worth it all.
