HELP!
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POL I'm in an epic argument on facebook.
I think this guy boxed me in here. Do I have any other recourse beyond admitting the holocaust was a good thing?
I'm arguing that postmodernism is shit, and he's basically saying if you don't like postmodernism you support the holocaust.
PIC VERY MUCH RELATED
>>74818114
ideally I don't want to be in a position where I am defending the holocaust or denying it to a normie.
I was kind of winning for a while and then this happened. How do I refute postmodernism without endorsing genocide?
Holocaust was shit because they couldn't finish the job.
>>74818114
Just call him a cuck and block him
The holocaust had nothing to do with modernism but more with the fact that people were poor and angry.
>>74818114
He's got multiple degrees. You're fucked.
>>74818321
No, that is conceding that he is right. We're already over 200 replies deep on a comment.
Also I'm not even friends with the guy I'm arguing on another person's facebook status.
>>74818432
top kek
>>74818114
"i do not accept your premise"
>>74818197
Sure.
He claims it will happen again but what makes him think so?
Also word to the wise--you better start speaking up and out about this shit. Don't worry about not appearing "mean."
"JEWS" won't work on them though. Trust me. That's how you lose them, you pick your battles.
Wait is he trying to say he has multiple degrees in poststructuralism. Just start shitposting about that.
Post this:
>Listen up I'm about to go and get rich
>Fuck with me my nigga
>We gon' circle round the Ville and hit a lick
>Cop some tree my nigga
>And some powder, bag it up and make it flip
>You gon' see my nigga
>One day we gon' graduate and cop a brick
>And thats the key my nigga
>Listen up I'm bout to go and get rich
>Stand back and watch if you want to nigga
>Me I want my pockets fat, a badder bitch
>Tired of seein' niggas flaunt, I wanna flaunt too nigga
>Watch some rollers in the fuckin' Crown Vic
>Tryna lock a nigga up, thats what they won't do nigga
>Wanna know a funny thing about this shit?
>Even if you let em' kill your dream it'll haunt you nigga
but why u hate? we have white noise, crying of lot 49, the coen brothers, etc
imo david hume was the first postmodernist anyway. way before the holocaust.
>>74818591
I mean we've been going back and forth on all of this. I was earlier arguing that the Belgians weren't solely responsible for the Rwandan genocide and that most of the blame lay at the feet of Rwandans for example.
I'm kind of at the end of my philosophical rope.
>>74818724
thinking about posting this:
"Wait, you have multiple degrees in postmodernism? How does that even work? Since it rejects objective truth how can your knowledge of the subject even be measured since it is all relative?"
Tell him he's stupid for wasting money studying that shit.
>>74819010
I could say that, but I myself have a degree in Political Science and Spanish which isn't much better.
>>74818114
>postmodernism is good because it's not modernism, which causes holocausts
Am I reading this right?
Insult him for not having a stem degree and ask him about all those jobs he doesn't have. Lol
>>74818724
>just start shitposting
First, mock his multiple degrees bonfires by stating that his 'shit don't stink.' Follow that by reminding him that the ability to regurgitate the opinions of sociologists does not make one informed or at all expert.
Next, refute the claim that the holocaust was borne out of modernism. Google is your friend.
Finally, state that even if the premise that modernism led to the holocaust were true, that doesn't automatically make post-modernism anything other than shit. Demonstrate all the shittiness born out of post-modernism.
>>74818114
So he has multiple degrees in memorizing other people's opinions?
>>74819120
its a really old line of argument that undergrads make in liberal philosophy departments whose curriculum consists mainly of dead french people
>it's bad because holocaust
Hitler thinking caused the holocaust.
You're thinking right this second.
Why isn't there another holocaust?
Oh, maybe two things that happened at the same time didn't cause each other.
Oh look, another "/POL/ PLEASE HELP ME, I'M TOO UNINTELLIGENT TO COME UP WITH MY OWN ARGUMENTS ON KIKEBOOK" thread.
Please just fuck off OP, this isn't your fucking blog and no one gives a shit.
>>74818114
>Postmodern """""art"""""
Objectively a fucking colossal mistake.
>>74819188
examples please! I will jewgle but time is of the essence!
>>74819210
>>74818114
Kek
OP definitely use this vicious retort
>>74819368
fuck you I can post what I want you anti-freedom faggot
This is an ideological battle we are waging, fuck off shill I will not back down.
>>74818114
Who cares it is his opinion it doesn't mean shit.
Throw him in an Oven and his opinions don't matter worth a shit do they.
>>74819375
>invisible loss.jpeg
>>74819472
other people are agreeing with him.
And while it doesn't mean shit, I don't want to concede that he is right. Nor do I want to be a complete jackass.
I want to use logic and reason to demonstrate why he is wrong.
>>74818114
This is literally word soup. He is positing something as an axiom that has to be demonstrated by suggesting that the Holocaust NECESSARILY resulted from the industrialization. That's the biggest non fucking sequitur I've ever seen. Morals and industrialization ARE directly connected because morals are a result of abundance. When there's scarcity of primary resources like food and water, it's every man (and his small collective) for themselves. The only reason we've been able to move into a postmodern society with the high morals we enjoy is because of the technological advancements of the last hundred years, most especially those that came as a result of WWII.
This guy is full of shit. Also, nice bait witht he "POL"
>>74819717
gonna need a bit more context then
1. They may thought that modernism led to something horrible, but is there a necessary connection between modernism and terrible things happening? How would one go about showing this?
2. Even if its granted that postmodernism led to great works of art (lol), modernism was supposedly abandoned because of its political ramifications, not because it was disastrous in the art it produced. Who would even hold that? If you take away modernist art from the Louvre, what's left?
3. Following from 2, what sort of political foundation has postmodernism provided? What sort of political foundations CAN it provide?
4. What sort of ethical/moral foundations can postmodernism possibly provide? It is incompatible with all of them. You can't found any sense of justice on postmodernism. It is moral acid. Why not kill a baby? Why not be racist?
>A postmodernist will say that because a grand narrative is lacking, there is no moral foundation to justify colonialism, but if a culture is intent on colonizing, what could a postmodern say to this culture to dissuade them from doing so? It would point out that the colonizing culture has no moral foot to stand on, but if that culture isn't colonizing for the sake of morality, how could a postmodern persuade the colonizer to care for morality?
tl;dr, sounds like a complete red herring
>>74819717
Well for starters he is making assertions and robbing people of their agency in the third and fourth paragraph and in the fifth paragraph he not only makes an appeal to authority he also makes an adhom attack against you.
So much for being educated i will stick with my middle grade high school level of education if that is what a university education produces.
>>74818948
>I was earlier arguing that the Belgians weren't solely responsible for the Rwandan genocide and that most of the blame lay at the feet of Rwandans for example.
Well if he's denying objective fact (Rwandans are humans with agency, therefore their actions are their own responsibility) then he's not worth bothering with.
>>74818114
>opening the door for artistic development
Well fucking look where that got us
The holocaust had nothing to do with industrialism. It has everything to do with the fact that the jewish people try to subvert every society and industrialism simply made it easier to round em up and potentially end their shit.
>>74819854
Adding more to two. Society is governed by law, and law is founded on a modernist understanding of what makes law legitimate, i.e., what makes a government's use of violence legitimate. If you take away the criteria for what makes law legitimate, can law still exist? Without law, can a society still exist?
MLK Jr., based his opposition to Jim Crow laws on modernist ideas about natural law, justice. He thought there was a grand narrative, a justice whose jurisdiction spans the whole of the earth. He thought that there is such a thing as natural law, and that man-mad law (positive law) is legitimate only when it abides by the moral laws of nature. If we undermine modernism, we undermine MLK Jr.'s justification for civil disobedience. We thereby have no reason to oppose segregation.
>>74818114
There is nothing wrong about genocide in itelf, its part of nature, especially human nature and its been with us ever since one tribe of hunter gatherers wiped out another for the first time. It's only bad when your peope are the ones being killed. I don't mind the holocaust and I don't expect other nations to care much about the genocides we were subjected to. Moral universalism is stupid and genocides were, are and will be happening all over the planet anyway, post modernism or not. The idea that post-modernism changes anything is silly because its lack of belief makes it easy to replace by anything with a grand narrative like Islam. And basically the modern West has a grand historical narrative, just incredibly stupid and childish. Its current yearism, the idea that as time progresses humanity inevitably emancipates itself from the white capitalist cisheteropatriarchy towards a tolerant utopia of global coexistence. My grand narrative is the thousand years and counting of the survival and growth of my people and their culture and there's nithing post-modernists can do about it.
>>74818114
Sociology isn't science. It's a fucking collection of opinions and overly pragmatic bullshit that was literally created to make mental midgets feel special. Fuck his opinion. He has degrees that make him a certified correlator. Yay. Post modernism is basically when rationality left the picture. Retards painting on walls with their own shit would literally qualify. Quantity does not equal quality.
In summary, just post this and be done with it.
>>74818114
What grounds does he have to suggest that industrialized genocide is a bad thing? The moral relativity of post modernism doesn't support that.
But honestly, what kind of opinion is "postmodernism is shit?"
>>74818114
"Postmodernism" isn't an ideology. There is no such movement, and most of the writers lumped into it disavow it.
Also, not all modern philosophies are teleological. Has he never heard of Kant? This guy is just posturing. Call him on his bluff.
>>74819854
>>74820215
These are both solid bits of reasoning.
Be sure to mention that his obscurantism of the subject only proves what little shaky ground his arguments stand on that he needs to inflate them with appeals to authority.
>>74820215
I like this a lot, thank you.
Will post with follow up screen shots.
>>74819817
>Morals and industrialization ARE directly connected because morals are a result of abundance.
Don't post this OP, this is bullshit. Will make you look stupid
>>74818114
I don't get how he linked postmodernism to politics like it means anything
Id just ask him how postmodernism is related to the discussion in any way and whether it has any bearing on anyone's life or is more a reflection of societal tastes and preferences
Tell him not to shift the goalposts, we were talking about X now you're talking about Y
>>74818114
Suggest to him that his assertion about postmodernism and it's sister.movements being "proven fertile ground for artistic expression" is false. Male him prove it. Require identifiable source references. Suggest that what he is asserting is subjective in nature and therefore invalid as one cannot prove something subjective as at its base subjectivity is a matter of preference.
He has multiple degrees, he ought to be able to work his way out of that. If he can't he's a dumbfuck with multiple joint papers.
>>74820534
yeah I was going to but decided not to.
Even hunter gatherers have morals and often more downtime to think than in industrialized society.
>>74818114
reply
"what is wrong with genocide"
do not back down from any claims that you are a racist or what have you
just ask him what is objectively wrong with genocide because besides what buzzwords he has been conditioned to throw at you there is ultimately nothing wrong with it, as edgelord as that sounds he will be stumped
>>74818432
300 confirmed degrees m8
>>74818114
''was the holocaust even that big of a deal?'' but really just say without the grand historical narrative society becomes listless and degenerate.
>>74820621
Yeah, sorry I can't help more, but I have to get up for work in 5 hrs.. Good luck with the argument!
Sorry, just tell him that he's implying an awful lot about where postmodernism came from, and its based on nothing but theories and speculation, argue that from your perspective there's very little difference between the two, and any differences you do see are more of a simple rebellion to the cultural norms of modern times than a deliberate denial of the politics that led to the holocaust. Not every artist is a philosopher.
Then say, if you're going to pretend that your degrees make you somehow more adept at critical thinking, maybe you should have studied a subject that didn't require so much rote regurgitation
>>74820539
this is how we got onto the subject of postmodernism.
pic related
>>74820857
>Muh Phineas Priesthood
The guy is spouting SPLC memes.
>>74818114
"multiple degrees"
>muh appeal to authority
>this is what Professor Goldstein taught me so it must be OBJECTIVELY true and not arguable at all!
get_a_load_of_this_guy.jpg
Also as said above, just because X was shit doesn't somehow automatically make Y any better
>>74818114
Point out that the basis of his argument:
>After the second world war, the academics of Europe dropped modernism and its focus on grand historical narratives
is a grand historical narrative itself.
It seems like his ideology is self contradictory, so by default, the premise that modernism caused the holocaust is suspect at best.
>>74818321
Just say
MUH 6 GORILLION
YOU'RE A BIG GUY
AYYLMAO
Works every time
>>74820857
you're both hipster pseudo intellectual swine
the other guy even more so since hes such a cocky fuck
Ask him if Vonnegut will be remembered in 50 years time let along 500
>>74820857
LOL, what a smug homo. Can you post any more of the argument OP?
>>74818114
Hitler lead to the Holocaust, nothing else.
>>74820857
Ionno, maybe point out that his racial equality ideology is rooted in Christian morality from the reformation???
>>74821075
Vonnegut probably will be because he's too in-line with contemporary narrative "war is bad" unless that somehow changes and it's removed from school curriculum.
Just link him to this thread so we can tear the smug faggot a new asshole OP
>>74821154
Apparently Vonnegut wrote books because he hated the holocaust
>>74820857
>>74821188
and that Postmodernism isn't anti-Holocaust
>>74818114
The roots of post-modernism are pre holocaust, and many post modern artists supported or were supported by genocidal states like soviet Russia et al.
To say that modernism inevitably leas t genocide is laughable. Genocide occurred before modernism and even in the post modern era with Rwanda.
>>74818114
So many times, it happens so fast. You trade your passion for glory. Don't lose the tip of the dreams of the past, you must fight just to keep them alive.
>>74821212
What Vonnegut did you read in school?
All right, history major here. I got this.
First, have him clarify his position. What exactly does he mean by postmodernism? It seems he's skipping a lot of ground with the second paragraph ("the academics dropped modernism and its focus on grand historical narratives because those processes led to the holocaust"). Where is his reasoning for that? I need names here. What body of literature is he going off of?
Second. What the fuck is poststructuralism? This guy loves his 'isms", doesn't he?
>>74820857
>clash of civilization discourse
>using discourse unironically outside of academic writing
This guy is retarded. He's the type that overwhelms his reader (or the poor TA that grades his papers) with a lot of fluff while saying very little of substance.
>Vonnegut
What the hell is he bringing up Vonnegut for? What is this argument about in the first place? Now I'm confused.
>>74821049
kek, very true. His own account of European intellectuals dropping modernism after the war is itself a narrative. He's also implying a telos since postmodernism, according to him, is a natural progression from modernism.
>>74820830
this, OP
pic related
>>74820830
>>74820800
>>74820375
this is what I ended up posting
pic related
>>74820215
I am saving the MLK argument to counter his next response
>>74820857
He actually speaks directly against the message of postmodernism when he talks teleologically about "ages" and that bullshit. Also, he's an academic. True postmodern men are artists. Waste of fucking space.
>>74821261
I think OP made the mistake of citing Harrison Bergeron,which was written as a mockery to people who criticize egalitarianism
Just tell him he's spook'd and post a pic of Stirner.
>>74821258
Slaughter-house 5, do you not read this in school? I guess it's Fahrenheit 451 curriculum-tier
>>74818114
Just redpill him on holocaust, you pussy, it doesn't start good, but I still manage to make them look clueless in the end.
>>74821261
I brought up Vonnegut earlier in the discussion.
We were arguing about socialism. I said I disagreed with it and why.
And I also mentioned the short story Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut.
It was basically a story where strong, capable, fit people are chained up and have restraints placed on them in order for everyone to be "equal".
I was trying to argue that government enforced equality would never work for the exact reasons that the main characters in Harrison Bergeron eventually revolt and break free of their chains.
>>74818114
just make fun of him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L42o1d-ho3g
>>74818114
You can beat him in 3 simple words.
Not
An
Argument.
>>74820857
Nice retort, Matthew Bommarito.
>>74821400
yes I mentioned Harrison Bergeron as an example of why I don't think socialism or government enforced equality would work. Why is that a mistake?
>>74820857
>missouri
you really couldnt choose a better state to live in?
Also happy birthday.
>help, I can't think for myself please give me something to parrot
>arguing on kikebook using your real name
Behind his fancy words he is basically saying "Postmodernism exists because of people dropped modernism for no reason because of genocide."
except they didn't, it was transition
>>74821066
J.k. ROLLING
>>74821459
>Slaughter-house 5
nah - what year of school did you read that in?
I didnt read Farenheit 451 either (when I was a kid), just the spark notes for the class quiz
Ended up reading it later on when I was bored, pretty entertaining read after all - jut not as entertaining as Nickelodeon all summer long.
>>74821372
Bretty good senpai
Fix your hair, switch your glasses to something not out of the 1970's, and go to the gym daily
Also OP, be sure to call him a cuck, get on his nerves, they conceded faster that way, they can never handle the bantz for too long.
>>74818114
Tell him that the holohaux never happened and that he looks like a fag.
>>74821584
why should I live in fear?
I already lost a few friends earlier in the year for having a massive facebook post about why I think people should vote Trump in the primaries.
>>74821543
thanks, I'm from here, actively trying to move away, but Missouri ain't bad. Well St. Louis sucks but I'm not in STL.
>>74821485
youre fucked
you ran yourself in a circle
apparently quoted a postmodernist, agreed with a postmodernist then said postmodernism is shit. Ya goofed.
>>74821372
good job OP
>>74821644
I think when we were 16/17, you know because >muh dresden bombings
"we can be bad too, you know"
I also remember reading Orwell's Animal Farm.
And yeah, replace Nickoleon with WWE and PS2 and that was me.
>>74821701
fucking christ
my glasses are intentionally old school. And yeah I need to go to the gym but I am partially degenerate.
>>74821838
no worries m8, the man your arguing with looks like a faggot.
>>74821538
You don't need to cite anything, just say this:
>by definition, individuality and equality are mutually exclusive. Seeing how we are a planet of 7.3b individuals, what does this tell us about equality?
>>74818468
>No, that is conceding that he is right. We're already over 200 replies deep on a comment.
>Also I'm not even friends with the guy I'm arguing on another person's facebook status.
holy cuck
arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics- even if you win you're still retarded.
Post that, block him then drink yourself to sleep u deserve it champ hope you get alcohol poisoning you deserve it champ
>>74820534
Why is that bullshit though? We see examples of morals being a result of abundance all the time. I would never eat another human being right now. Morally, it doesn't sit well with me. And I have no need to since I have an abundance of food that's not human. However if I was alone and starving, and there was a freshly killed human corpse, it's likely I would cast off my morality about eating people, and eat the corpse. Lots of people all over the world have been in situations where they had to resort to cannibalism, despite being morally objected to it before they had an abundance of food.
>>74821838
>I'm intentionally retarded
You don't have the mustache or the haircut to pull those glasses off; in fact, you haven't got a mustache at all.
>>74821727
Do this OP, mix it up a little, but don't get too wild
>>74821838
At least you don't have a faggoty jaw line
>>74821915
wait no, that is his friend. I think he is gay.
>>74821372
Post modernism is in essence a grand demoralization and alienation of people from their heritage and culture - which makes them easy prey to capitalists and materialism. Is this by his measure of justice "justified" in order to prevent the spectral boogeyman horror of a future holocaust (which his premise failed in any way to definitively link to modernism except by alluding tangentially to industrialization - in essence claiming it was simply a pogrom on a larger scale, where in his estimation does that leave the pre-modern, pre-industrial genocides of native Americans? Does he assume that this was the simple result of a grand narrative, or as a rationalist would, see it as a conflict of material interest?)
Also does this excuse the crimes of apathy committed in the postmodern era such as little reaction to Chinese factory slavery,and drone bombing of children simply because a motivating narrative cannot be built with such demoralized and materialistic post-modern society?
Where is does his sense of justice lay? In a fucking hashtag?
>>74821915
Is that what you Amerifats call a man? it's obviously a woman.
>>74821915
HAHA Holy shit! Uggo Alert!! Tell him he looks like he comes from somewhere 90+% white
>>74821538
>Why is that a mistake?
Because vonnegut was a fucking pinko and wrote it as a parody of anti-egalitarian arguments.
>>74821771
>I already lost a few friends earlier in the year for having a massive facebook post about why I think people should vote Trump in the primaries
>Tomorrow is the big day. I encourage you to vote for Donald J. Trump in the primary election. I realize this may come as a surprise to some of my friends
You dumbfuck. Why would you reveal your powerlevel ever? Also yeah, you shouldn't have brought up Vonnegut like >>74821778 said. Was this argument about socialism sparked by Bernie Sanders, by any chance?
>>74821727
>>74821943
>call him names! That'll show him!
OP goofed but why should he take that easy road? That's almost as bad as the libtard tendency of spamming hyperbole.
>>74821915
I believe that is a female friend of his named Theo DeRoth.
She hasn't commented at all but has liked every post that disagrees with me.
>>74821925
Well right now I'm unemployed and while applying for jobs I have nothing better to do. Also I enjoy this.
If I have a newfound political thought process why should I not express that and go against the liberal grain of most of my peers?
>>74818114
Say that Post-postmodernism has shown postmodernism to be just as shallow and useless as postmodernism has viewed modernism. Then spam a bunch of DFW pics.
>>74821935
I used to have a moustache, also had a beard at one point. My hair is way shorter now and I'm also clean shaven. But I like the glasses anyway.
Most people don't wear glasses like this. I don't need some skinny small framed nu-male faggot glasses.
>>74822135
>If I have a newfound political thought process why should I not express that and go against the liberal grain of most of my peers?
Because you're too poorly-read to know the arguments to make. Shit, you don't even know what the arguments are, let alone where they are relevant.
>>74818114
It's art criticism. There are no facts.
Therefore, your goal isn't to win. Your goal is to make him ragequit without looking like a sophist.
Go to the postmodernist essay generator and shovel shit from it at his wall until he gives up. Bury him under gobledygook.
SHIT STARTS HERE:
1. Foucaultist power relations and subcultural narrative
“Society is meaningless,” says Sontag; however, according to Finnis[1] , it is not so much society that is meaningless, but rather
the genre of society. In a sense, Derrida uses the term ‘the neodialectic
paradigm of discourse’ to denote the rubicon, and subsequent dialectic, of
structural sexual identity. In JFK, Stone deconstructs social realism;
in Natural Born Killers he examines subcultural narrative.
If one examines the neodialectic paradigm of discourse, one is faced with a
choice: either reject posttextual narrative or conclude that narrative comes
from the collective unconscious. However, the subject is interpolated into a
subcultural narrative that includes language as a paradox. Patriarchial theory
implies that art is capable of significance.
The characteristic theme of the works of Stone is a self-justifying reality.
Therefore, if the neodialectic paradigm of discourse holds, the works of Stone
are reminiscent of Lynch. The subject is contextualised into a social realism
that includes language as a paradox.
If one examines the neodialectic paradigm of discourse, one is faced with a
choice: either accept social realism or conclude that consciousness may be used
to marginalize minorities. Thus, Lacan suggests the use of Lyotardist narrative
to modify and read society. The premise of the neodialectic paradigm of
discourse suggests that sexual identity, perhaps surprisingly, has intrinsic
meaning, given that truth is equal to language.
>>74822179
kek
>>74821915
That is not a man.
That is at a very generous push a boy.
>>74821701
this
shave the sides of your head down to a number 2, keep the top long
get some glasses that are as close to a square shape as possible
never wear a button down partially unbuttoned over a tee from the top, unbutton it all the way then roll your sleeves up. Take it off and just wear a tee, or button up your cuffs and button it up leaving top unbuttoned
greow a goatee and a dirt-stache, maybe even a chin strap
nice crystal though
>>74818849
LAST NIGHT I HAD A BAD DREAM
>>74818114
PLEASE SIR CAN I HAVE SOME MORE
Lyotard promotes the use of capitalist discourse to attack class
divisions. Lacan uses the term ‘capitalist materialism’ to denote a
mythopoetical totality.
Thus, the characteristic theme of the works of Spelling is not theory, but
posttheory. Sartre uses the term ‘postdialectic capitalism’ to denote the
difference between society and truth.
However, the premise of capitalist discourse suggests that the media is part
of the futility of sexuality. In Charmed, Spelling reiterates
postdialectic capitalism; in Beverly Hills 90210, although, he affirms
capitalist materialism.
2. Expressions of paradigm
“Sexual identity is elitist,” says Lyotard; however, according to Hubbard[3] , it is not so much sexual identity that is elitist, but
rather the paradigm, and some would say the defining characteristic, of sexual
identity. Therefore, if constructivist Marxism holds, we have to choose between
capitalist materialism and the posttextual paradigm of expression. Long[4] states that the works of Spelling are not postmodern.
In the works of Spelling, a predominant concept is the distinction between
creation and destruction. It could be said that Lacan suggests the use of
postdialectic capitalism to modify class. If capitalist materialism holds, we
have to choose between subcapitalist sublimation and dialectic Marxism.
However, in Robin’s Hoods, Spelling reiterates capitalist discourse;
in The Heights, however, he examines capitalist materialism. Parry[5] holds that we have to choose between postdialectic
capitalism and Debordist image.
Therefore, Sartre uses the term ‘capitalist discourse’ to denote the role of
the reader as observer. If capitalist materialism holds, we have to choose
between the capitalist paradigm of reality and neodialectic situationism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuaHRN7UhRo
>I proved that you're wrong then I'm right.
>I'm not after you, I'm after them (other followers and friends).
>>74822235
hahahhahaha
>>74822121
>He's incapable of delivering the bantz while arguing
m8 it's just to drive down his will to argue, if they can't address your points without getting uppity that they can't handle the bantz then they should fuck off
>>74822235
>Foucaultist power relations
Stopped reading there
>>74822204
You need glasses that don't draw attention to your weak chin and round blobby face. Your current pair doesn't do a damn thing to help with that.
>>74822135
>If I have a newfound political thought process why should I not express that and go against the liberal grain of most of my peers?
Masturbation is unhealthy in excess.
>>74821934
It's just a very weak argument that doesn't hold up. Morality is built in to human nature. There are poor people with morals and rich people that are immoral. No offense man, there is something to that idea, but it should not be used as a central point in OP's argument.
>>74818114
the key mistake is that he claims that genocide is justified because there is a grand narrative. Which is a nonsenical argument.
The art they make is shit btw so....
the easiest counter argument that i would make is this:
The fact that history is a linear series of events with determinable causes and effects and good and bad things happening does not lead to genocide, and everyone who claims that should go juggle in a circus.
I would also add that the european avantgarde academic's opinion that there is no 'grand narrative' is a complete intellectual zero based on fancy ideas and degenerate minds.
> I have mutliple degrees in this shit
he has degrees in shit yes.
>>74818114
Does he not know that modernism developed out of romanticism and it's rebellion on the rationalistic thinking of the Enlightenment? It was the Enlightenment that was pro industrialization, not Modernism.
Simply put, he's wrong. He doesn't care about Modernism vs. Postmodernism, but rather Postmodernism vs. Everything else.
>>74822121
why not reveal my partial power level?
why keep lying to people and pretending I'm still super liberal? Why is it okay for them to be honest but as soon as I am honest it is a problem.
We need to change the narrative. Conservatives can't just keep hiding everywhere, that's what Trump is all about. Silent majority gettin loud baby
Also I got a few messages from less political friends thanking and praising me for posting something they don't have the guts to.
I'm at a point in my life where I really don't care if other people like me or not.
>this is what we will pay for with "free" education
He's so neck deep in jargon it's virtually unintelligible. Fuck this shit.
>>74822483
Because you do not look Alpha. If you are Chad and you do it, it is fine. Make yourself look like Chad(to the best of your abilities), then do it.
>fukkin shit
>>74818114
His entire argument is an appeal to consequence and an inversion of logic:
modernism -> holocaust
holocaust is bad
therefore modernism is false
He also hasn't shown the aetiology between modernism and the holocaust and so could also be arguing from a false premise.
>>74822306
Anything having to do with Lacan is buried in such nonsense, Slavoj Zisek has made an entire career out of pretending to understand it.
>>74822483
REVEAL IT YOU FUCKING JEW. are you seriously trying to listen to a fucking weeaboo?
>>74818114
>I have multiple degrees in this shit
you already won LMAO
>>74822656
There are degrees in the holocaust though.
>>74822483
>partial power level
Openly declaring your support for the Donald is basically going all in. That's bridge burning. It's one thing to stop pretending a super liberal and another to out yourself as a Trumpfag.
My friends and family and coworkers think I'm a moderate who's firmly on the fence and not voting for anyone in November. That's the best way to go about it until you're successful and in a position where you can be open about your political views. Don't listen to this nigger >>74822644, he lives in Georgia of all places.
>>74822135
>Theo (((DeRoth)))
>>74822483
keep at it man, the fallout from revealing your powerlevel sucks but it is worth it if only so that you dont have to keep lying to yourself and those around you
is it fucked up that we talk about having conservative political leanings in this day and age in a manner that isnt dissimilar to a conversation about coming out o the closet?
i think its pretty fucked up tbqh
>>74822483
BE AN HERO THAT WE NEED
GET THE GOLDEN IPOD
>>74822075
>Amerifats
The sign behind him obviously is in a foreign language and has an European look.
>>74818114
>and you can argue that premise all you want
sounds like even they don't believe that bullshit
and as for it being a fertile ground for art so was modernism
>>74822882
There could be a french quarter there. It was owned by the french for hundreds of years, same with louisiana
>>74822755
Yeah I did it before the MO primary. I was worried about a Cruz victory and that momentum would slow.
Trump only won Missouri by less than 2,000 votes. I feel justified in my action because I think the stakes were pretty close.
Of course I have lost some friends and it sucks but I mostly haven't. All of my good friends I'm able to be friends with while disagreeing with them. We've had some heated arguments but for my real friends at the end of the day we won't let political differences cloud that.
>>74819404
>Newfags need help to debate on THE FUCKING INTERNET
Wtf is research? Christ I almost want you to fail, just follow what that guys says and maybe someone can post an outline for you.
>There's always that one guy who cares
>>74822945
So was Antiquity so was the Renaissance OP is arguing with a faggot.
Anon delete your jewbook account
Facebook is for women and cucks
>>74822755
Supporting Trump is not all in, what kind of a pussy are you? what are you afraid of? that some fake """"""""""Friends"""""""" are going to unfriend you on kikebook?
>>74823069
>Christ I almost want you to fail
I absolutely DO want this retard to fail. This is embarrassing and OP hasn't cultivated a sense of shame about it.
>>74822799
>if only so that you dont have to keep lying to yourself and those around you
I'd rather play my cards close to the chest and be comfortable than be completely honest and left in the cold. It really depends on the political climate around you and what opportunities you have.
>All of my good friends I'm able to be friends with while disagreeing with them. We've had some heated arguments but for my real friends at the end of the day we won't let political differences cloud that.
You are far more fortunate than I. I guess that's why I'm more cautious - I can't count on my "friends" to be friends.
>>74819188
OP THIS IS THE CORRECT ANSWER
>>74823106
Its completely liberal, all conservative views and news is censored
Going to get rid of this shit soon
I only have it to talk to friends I know overseas including a few /pol/ bros
>>74822282
I know he's an autist, but that's no reason to turn him into a hipster. Shaving down the sides and keeping the top long is for degenerates.
>>74823106
I'm about to delete it, but it makes keeping in touch with people very easy.
>>74822882
It was Amerifat who said that she was a man. I wasn't calling her Amerifat.
>>74821372
>Islamic terrorism has killed far more than 450 people in just the past 15 years
LOL
Try in just the past month! It has killed 1,301 and injured 1,780 in the last 30 days. Source: https://www.thereligionofpeace.com
>>74823148
why would you want self professed socialists to win an argument?
>>74822483
You shouldn't hide how you feel. Tell them who you support and if they have a problem with it they can fuck off. If they have a problem with you are then you don't really need to be friends with them.
>>74823135
I want to move up in my career, Josef. Employers like to check your Jewbook and find ways to see all your posts, even the ones you made private.
>>74822483
You need to be smart enough to defend yourself if you want to do that. As in, not running to /pol/ for help.
>>74818114
https://youtu.be/we6cwmzhbBE
Here OP this should help, it's a little long but worth watching, at the end there are some serious criticism that you should be able to level at you master debater post modernist
>>74821915
Is that really a man ? it looks like a stereotypical ugly smug dyke.
>>74823208
thank you. I have no need for hipsterdom. I was a hipster/scene kid 10 years ago in high school. Not really in terms of fashion, but yeah I don't need to return to that. I'm just trying to be a normal dude.
I know I need to shave my sideburns, but I really don't like square glasses. I have these glasses because the frames are very very large, thus I can have more of my field of vision in focus. Often times the square lenses are much smaller, and I'd rather wear contacts than those, but I like glasses.
I have really strong facial hair, a goatee or dirty stache would look gay as fuck
>>74823349
>that thumbnail
What's he doing? The breaststroke?
>>74821915
>>74821701
>>74822616
Would not associate with any/10
>>74823237
yes but I was talking specifically about within the USA not worldwide.
>>74823237
>Source: https://www.thereligionofpeace.com
DoublePlusUngood source anon, the lib is already spouting SPLC memes like the Phineas Priesthood and can easily link to hundreds of articles calling it a hate site, Aim for something more neutral - were trying to win over normies here.
>>74823240
Because you're not winning one for the cause, you've not developed your own sense of things, and that's a big deal here, you former pinko.
>>74823289
yeah normally I am. And I was doing fine until this whole postmodernism thing got brought up.
I really haven't studied postmodern philosophy too much (or haven't had a conversation about it since college a few years ago).
>>74823506
come on cunt, where's the reply?
>>74823269
How do you know that your Jewployer is going to discriminate you for supporting Trump?
Sue him, if he does. Get an evidence, secretly record it.
>>74819854
They may thought that modernism led to something horrible, but is there a necessary connection between modernism and terrible things happening?
Exactly. There is a connection between modernism and advances in engineering and logistics. There is not a connection between modernism and people doing acting immorally. Modernism only facilitated the limited use of certain technologies in morally dubious ways by a small fraction of people pursuing genocidal policies that have many analogues across human history and across cultures.
Ethnic cleansing is something as intrinsic to human cultures as language and incest avoidance. We only hate the Nazis because they were in a position to do it more efficiently and more totally than anybody in history.
>>74822135
you enjoy arguing with people but can't muster up a victory without resorting to posting it on 4chan? despicable
>>74823506
The outlines and sources have been give.
It's your turn to take this knowledge and use it.
Also pics of entire or primary pints of your argument? So I know you've made some effort
>>74822616
topkek you can see where he's going to go bald in 5-10 years time. JUST
>>74823570
It is legal to discriminate however you want politically.
>>74818114
this spambot is also effecting the other /pol/ interesting
spam filter wont let me link to cripplechan
>>74823485
if you want I can try to screenshot and post the entire argument.
Basically I started out correct but it got shifted. The beginning of the argument was in regards to Congress/Senate not holding hearings to nominate Obama's Supreme Court appointee.
And I argued effectively for this fact. All they could retort with was "muh precedent". Furthermore, they discredited the constitution and said it was a meaningless document written by classist white males and because of this should be disregarded.
I just couldn't let this stand. And I said I would much rather have a Governing Document written by literate persons rather than some colonial bumpkin.
It looks like shit now because I posted the part of the argument where I was at my weakest, I did not intend it to go on for this long, but I promise you the other two really don't look much if any better to me.
I've even tried to bow out of the conversation. I was like, "you know what, we both have different opinions and you're not going to change my mind and I won't change yours at this point so we should stop". They disagreed, so I'm continuing it.
>>74823639
I've been arguing with people on goybook for months this is the first time I have resorted to 4chan for my personal army.
>>74823506
So your first mistake was trying to debate something you have very little background in. What you should have done is say "why" and "how," probing and picking apart his argument, basically forcing him to explain what post-modernism is and why it matters to his argument. Of course, this is a high level play in and of itself and I'm not sure you could have pulled that off either.
With your level, you should have just shitposted him saying something like the following:
>postmodernism
HAHAHAHAHA! Fucking word soup garbage waste of life. Only good it does people is prepping them for a life of flipping burgers. Take your trash and shove it down your throat.
>>74823707
I figured I'd post on both because there were chances that this post would die out and not get any replies. Most of my threads don't do too well on 4chan.
>>74823432
Right because we don't have the refugees.
>>74818114
Cut your hair again and ditch the hat. Otherwise you look better than I expected for /pol/
>>74823553
this was what I replied with
>>74821372
>>74821372
>>74821372
he has yet to respond. probably past his bedtime
>>74823736
Yeah...you need to win this.
>Adds pressure for OP to perform
>>74823877
>when the demon rape is just right
>>74823783
>I've been arguing on Goybook for months
This doesn't help your argument.
>>74823877
thanks, I don't normally wear a hat though, I do have a KC ballcap in my previous profile pic but either my head got bigger or the hat shrunk because it seems small on me now.
>>74823694
Depends on state.
>>74823850
I don't have one but in America there are only certain things such as race that you can't discriminate against. Other things are fair game.
>>74818114
>I have multiple degrees in this shit.
There will be multiple memes from this shit.
>>74823940
most of my arguments have been with random people that I don't have mutual friends with. This happened to be on a post with someone I went to high school with and in general got along with.
Side note: I've even worn my MAGA hat out to the local bar district mostly populated by hipsters and punks/alternative types (as well as your preppy folks).
It's funny I get people who run away from their friends just to tell me they're on board with Trump, but they don't want their friends to know.
>>74824115
please!
>>74818114
modernism was done before the Holocaust right? Just tell him its complete shit and that no amount of typing will make a red square art.
>>74823736
buddy you do not even begin to have the required skill to debate this guy or anyone for that matter.
Why the hell do you accept such large terms like "postmodernism" without question?
Who the hell calls what lead to national socialism "modernism"?
Seriously what is this crap. Tell him to define what "modernism" means and what exactly supposedly from this modernism led to nazis.
Again: Just like the canadian faggot said: Why on earth would anything that follows nazis automatically be better than nazis?
You also shouldnt blindly accept his proposition that every single thing about national socialism was inherently bad, you should do this for the debate's sake.
Alright OP, since you've said you've been arguing for months, here's how you salvage yourself:
End this conversation. Just let it die. For months, your peers have been looking at you sperg about, and you have to let it die. If you can smoothly play this off and kill the conversation, you'll look better in the eyes of your peers and your opponent will look like an autistic fucking cunt.
>>74818114
This is like asking us to help you argue against someone in a cult, OP. It's not going to work. This person has too much invested in his pseudo-religious horseshit. Also, his argument will be internally consistent and will a priori rule out any evidence you bring to the contrary.
My advice? Don't be friends with him, he is a faggt. serioously.
>>74822755
Ahahahahah so supporting a moderate like Trump is your full power level? Raus!!
>>74818197
Holocaust isn't the biggest or the worst genocide of the WW2 and it doesn't even matter in the historic perspective..
Tell him that the majority of academics and bankers funding them were jews, who created the postmodernism to create a society devoid of any identity they can keep on robbing without anyone identifying them.
>>74824253
OP should do this, and redirect his energy to finding a qt 3.14 to see /pol/ the movie aka Angry Birds
>>74824436
It is in the eyes of Libs who paint him as "Literally Hitler" and shit. Anything past supporting Trump in public is also pretty fucking stupid.
>>74824253
Yeah, I'm trying to. And when I said that I didn't mean this particular argument, just in general.
I've been sperging hard this is true. The whole past year has been rather mindblowing for me.
If you had told me a year ago that I would be supporting Donald Trump for president and that I would basically be far right wing I would've laughed in your face. It's the most surprising thing I could possible think that has happened, and yet it has.
And in a weird way this saved my sanity. I was basically mentally insane for a few months last fall and that's when I really discovered pol and began to even be exposed to this kind of thinking.
>>74824521
yeah, I actually recently ended the pussy drought but it was with an Asian girl who had to go back to Asia.
>>74822755
Get on my level.
I openly wear a swastika t-shirt without giving a single fuck. I am probably the only man in the whole EU who does that.
All because I'm a Jew.
>>74824589
You sound kinda like my former Bernie supporting friend who is now pro Trump and moderately Redpilled.
Hmmmmm
>>74818432
>doing more than one degree in the humanities
jesus christ
>>74824667
(You)
>>74824693
well my identity has pretty much been revealed in this thread. So go through the thread I may very well be your former Bernie friend who is now moderately redpilled. If so shoot me a message or contact me somehow.
>>74824730
I'm serious tho. Everyone in vicinity starts uncontrollably shitting themselves.
When the cops ask me I point at my kippah and tell them it's a political art statement against the oppressive genocidal government, without getting into any details.
>>74820621
They don't have morals. They are fucking savages with no progression. Our morals are tested, the tribal mindset however remains unloving for thousands of years. Convention and practicality are not different to morals for them. Abundance does lead to more complex thoughts on the topics.
>>74818114
You don't have to endorse GENOCIDE per se, but bring up how old civilizations fought and conquered weaker groups in Europe, making the genetically more fit and more capable, well-balanced societies to not only live on, but thrive. In a post-modern world, ideally a marxist like your dipshit friend here would want to completely dissolve all preexisting cultures while simultaneously improving none.
This is why, in my opinion, large, stagnanting, unopposed empires consistently collapse on themselves. There is no goad for fierce competition between small micro-communities/nation-state; the centralized government in place continuously suppresses inter-cultural violence and competition and progressively weaker and weaker generations are created. We are, in large part, seeing this on a global scale.
So it wasn't so much a genetic 'holocausting' that pre-modern warring nations accomplished, but also the evolution and passing on of successful morals, values, and culture that allowed the successful nation to thrive.
Evolution isn't just limited to genetics; we're far past that. Evolution applies to cultures and values.
>>74818114
>Get philosophy degree
>think I'm SUPER smart because i learned words like; postmodern, dialectic, narratives, genocide, and poststructuralism
>just incoherently slur these words together twenty times
>TOUGH SHIT KID, LOOKS LIKE YOU LOST THE ARGUMENT
>>74824253
This coupled with finding new friends is what OP should do. It sounds like he is befriending liberals and then getting spergy when they express liberal beliefs.
>>74824871
>ID
>Gay
In the trash it goes.
>>7482482
OP you should start a FaceBook group chat and get /polacks to help you quicker.
Ultraminimalism favored by too many C.Y. writers is deeply influenced by the aesthetic
norms of mass entertainment. Indeed, this fiction depends on what’s little more than a
crude inversion of these norms. Where television, especially its advertising, presents
everything in hyperbole, Ultraminimalism is deliberately flat, understated, “undersold.”
Where TV seeks everywhere to render its action either dramatic or melodramatic, to
move the viewer by displaying constant movement, the Minimalist describes an event
as one would an object, a geometric form in stasis; and he always does so from an emo-
tional remove of light years. Where television does and must aim always to please, the Catatonic writer hefts something of a finger at subject and reader alike: one has only toread a Bret Ellis sex scene (pick a page, any page) to realize that here pleasure is neither a subject nor an aim. My own aversion to Ultraminimalism, I think, stems from its
naive pretension. The Catatonic Bunch seem to feel that simply by inverting the values
imposed on us by television, commercial film, advertising, etc., they can automatically
achieve the aesthetic depth popular entertainment so conspicuously lacks. Really, of
course, the Ultraminimalists are no less infected by popular culture than other C.Y.
writers: they merely choose to define their art by opposition to their own atmosphere.
The attitude betrayed is similar to that of lightweight neo-classicals who felt that to be
non-vulgar was not just a requirement but an assurance of value, or of insecure scholars
who confuse obscurity with profundity. And it’s just about as annoying.
Replace ultraminimalism with postmodernism and change a few meme words and you'll probably have a text that will make him seethe with anger.
>>74824829
Welcome to /pol/ OP
>>74818114
How is postmodernism different than Nazi Germany?
The iphone he uses was made by cheap slave female chinese preteens, yet he brags geneocides are over? What about the gasoline he uses everyday?
You see his pseudo intelectualism fails to prove any argument as it falls into an ambiguos rethoric of superior moralism. History is not about right nor wrong is about facts. Facts that some people dislike that for example multiculturalism is a fail politic or that Hitler economy proved to be effective, and so on.
>>74824829
Welcome to the lovely sub-culture which brought you Gamergate, OP.
We are objectively terrible.
What the fuck am i reading
>>74821584
This.
I do my facebook arguing on an account with a female name and an anime avatar. Not because I'm ashamed of my views, but because I hate the idea that everyone I know would see me arguing like an autist on facebook. Most people have better things to do.
>>74825615
I just don't splerg or lose arguments on FB.
>Mfw fellow /polacks look like robots
>>74825152
yeah I've actually been wanting to specifically start a Political Debate group on facebook to argue for or against various ideas.
I think that would be better because it would be somewhat private and wouldn't just be on other peoples' statuses.
still, I don't get why people post political stuff on facebook and then get butthurt when people disagree with them publicly.
>>74825923
It's not about sperging or losing arguments. What kind of person wastes their time arguing on facebook? Not the kind of person I want my peers to see me as. I prefer to do it anonymously.
>>74825520
dude I've been here since September and used to post on 4chan on /b/ back in 07-09. I'm not stranger to this place.
>>74818114
Tell him that his degree in youtubeing Noam Jewski is pathetic.
>>74826012
obviously you are that kind of person, like I am.
I can understand using an anon account for business reasons, not wanting your employers or those who can really affect your life to see your views.
However I also don't think we should allow all of our majority liberal friends to control the narrative. By refusing to confront them with opposing views we are tacitly endorsing their opinions.
>>74826012
I use FB to broadcast myself. So I post my political views (with a fuck ton of restrain and power level hiding) to my feed. None of my friends freak out nor entirely disagree. Then again I might be in a different situation since most of my friends and family share similar views to me. So I can see why you'd rather not reveal too much stuff or look like a dick.
>>74825992
Should this be pursued guys? I think a troll account or OP hosting this private thing would be interesting.
>>74826158
Full disclosure, I'm a liberl - And I argue in favor of liberal positions. It has nothing to do with "controlling the narrative." I simply don't want people to see me as someone who argues on facebook.
>>74826238
I share political comics and articles when I feel like it, and I correct my friends when they post something stupid on my newsfeed. I simply don't allow them to see me posting over and over again in arguments with other people. I keep that shit on my anon account.
>>74826381
Perhaps I will post another thread later. It would be great to have lots of pollacks in there rather than just people on my friend's list, since most of them are very liberal. I'd rather have an even number of both (or even more pollacks). But certainly do not want it to be such that conservative or pol like views are in the minority.
Basically my rules would be anything goes except personal attacks. You would have to argue logically and civilly. Any attempt at name-calling, shaming, virtue-signaling, etc would not be allowed. Basically saying "you're a racist" would not be a valid argument and if it happened too much you be eligible to be banned.
>>74818849
talentless hack who dosn't know how to rhyme any two words exept nigger with itself, than you probbably are one.
>>74819115
>I could say that, but I myself have a degree in Political Science and Spanish which isn't much better.
>>74826534
>Perhaps I will post another thread later.
At what time?
Will you update us on your debate? >>74821372
>>74818468
If you're this much of a faggot that you have to ask us for debate counters to finish an argument, ask your stupid friend to delete his status because "he's tired of getting notifications"
>>74818114
>be current year
>still living in post-modernist thinking
>not embracing the post-post-modern / meta-modern thinking pattern
>not replying with "the holocaust never happened, but it should of"
pol wins because pol has moved past the pure sincerity of modernism and the pure sarcasm of post modernism into an era of both pure sincerity coupled with pure sarcasm both at once and neither. Milo doesn't understand this and just sees it as trolling sarcasm, and misses the very real sincerity of political discourse.
>>74824503
Indeed, Stalin and Pol Pot were far worse than Hitler, hell even Today's Communist China and North Korea are worse than Hitler in terms of Human Rights atrocities.
>>74826924
Or you could be me and present yourself well enough that all your friends accept what you say instead of arguing with you because they know you know what you're talking about.
Literally none of my friends argue with me. If anything, I simply comment explaining why what they said was wrong. I'm knowledgeable, and they realize that, so it typically ends there.
>>74819460
The only help you'll get here is knot tying tips for your own personal rope.
>halp i'm losing pls /pol/ btfo da librul c-cuck
>>74826708
>>74826708
just put in this after the fb url /groups/576497532514513/
I had to format it like this because it thinks it is spam
I just created the group. I'll add everyone who requests to join.
This may not be the final group, just posting this here so that any pollacks can join if they want. Because if I post at a later date all of us might not be on the board.
Join the group now, and I will either develop the group or create a new one that everyone will be invited to. This post is not spam but 4chan won't let me post.
>>74821215
Seriously. Cut the middle man out and let us work him straight from the source. The redpill got shoved down my throat only being here for a day or so.
>>74827550
>The redpill got shoved down my throat only being here for a day or so.
That says more about you than it does about /pol/.. And it doesn't say anything good about you, I can tell you that right now.
>>74818114
Postmodernism doesn't help the artistic anything, as its interpretation isn't based on a current set of standards that drive the expansion of understanding in the same way that classical artistic representation has, since most modern artistic expression of post modernism is based around an individual as an entity or concept in an of themselves. What classical post modernism offered was a view point from that of both the individual as well as the group, portrayed in some level of paradox displayed visually or through a level of understanding equal to what the content is being directed at. In political use postmodernism allows for the use of astereotyping and exclusionary-inclusion tactics seen in most realms of 'identity' politics such as gender identity, feminism, and minority representation; and historically an increase in minority cultural empowerment through tribalism and false acknowledgement while deconstructing the majority culture and history.
Poststructuralism doesn't actually add anything new to the ability for a society to advance in any level of the arts, or understanding, because it removes the over riding requirement that pushes societal development as a whole and instead replaces it with the individual mentality and development of society that can be seen through advancement of technology in things like Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook where tribal ideology sociologically exists where if you don't agree with me you are my enemy, or to the current emptiness of the entertainment industry where most best selling movies, music, etc have been rehashes of older content simply updated to a new mass marketable form of media.
Postanything is never a sign of advancement under any level of historical development for societies and cultures, it is always the deconstruction phase where people attempt to understand what went wrong for the next age or phase of society/cultural development and advancement to begin and is the first indicator of cultural death.
>>74818468
You shouldn't have started. There's no point arguing with these people.
Honestly you should have just started sending him gore and claiming it's art long ago.
>>74827460
I'll save info a rejoin group later with a anonymous account thing. Also it's late right now. At least we got a foundation though
>>74827460
already got one,
please more polacks join the group, I didn't create this for nothing
(fbook.com)/groups/576497532514513/
>>74818114
I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems people are getting somewhat distracted.
His argument seems to be that post-modernism is the greatest defense against another holocaust. All you have to do is show that genocide occurred before, after, and during periods where post modernism existed.
he'll probably counter with post-modern societies don't genocide, and you can counter with the fact that they allow them to occur while sitting back and watching- darfur in the 20th century. There is ethnic cleansing occuring in the middle east in the present.
also post-modernism is amoral.
he sounds like a secular existentialist. he is trying to impress with his education but he is ignoring reality.
then drop the finishing blow:
a. human nature is warlike, which includes genocide
b. post-modernism isn't a novel philosophy, i'm sure there are plenty of greeks or some shit that had a similar concept
c. he's intellectually lazy, more of a coward than a thinker, afraid of taking moral positions
>having an argument on Facebook
You guys are fucking cancer. All of you
>>74824871
>a political art statement against the oppressive genocidal government
Oh that is hilarious.
I'd give it an 88/10 except for the jew part, so here, have a 10/10 instead.
Seriously though- hilarious.
Go back to facebook you fucking queer
>>74822093
Authorial intent doesn't matter anon. OP's interpretation stands.
>>74828569
this
his opponent implicitly accepts Barthes, so you can't lose with this
>>74818114
She? is just spewing buzzwords around mate. Close to zero content in that post.
>>74828364
nonsense.
Arguments on internet are best arguments. I had fun times
>>74829370
It does nothing aside from being an ego boost that only lasts for a little while.
Nobody ever gets convinces in a public argument on the internet.
You're wasting your time and time of all other people participating.
>>74821934
You can have a moralilty that allows for cannibalism in extreme circumstances.
The Soviet Union/Communist movement was founded as a postmodernist and poststructuralist system, by the same Jews that advocated those theories in academia. All aspects of the human experience were rendered meaningless and subjective, and the end result was 60 million dead to muh holocaust's six million. Not to mention that if the UN includes population reduction and cultural disestablishment as a form of genocide, then that's happening to white Europe right now thanks to the various "post" movements.
>>74829773
poststructuralism was dozens of years later than the Bolshevik revolution
The idea that industrialized genocide and modernism are the same thing is pretty stupid. Even if the Holocaust did happen who is he claiming made that contention. And Post-Modernism as as artistic aesthetic is very different from it as a societal or political force. I don't give a fuck how many degrees he has if you're intelligent you can win an argument.
>>74818425
It's like saying James Joyce and Stravinsky were responsible for the Holocaust. Pretty moronic.
>>74830296
they holocausted literature and music, respectively
The entire modern art scene is A Big Money laundering scheme for The jews, you can use it to literally make shit worth millions.
>>74822755
I don't understand how Trump has basically half the support now in the polls yet you can't say you support him? It's not like saying the Holohoax didn't happen of something. I know if you move in liberal circles it can hurt you and I pretty much do but don't really give a fuck except for close friends. There has some place of some strata of society where you can support Trump and not be ostracized.
>>74829773
>Not to mention that if the UN includes population reduction and cultural disestablishment as a form of genocide, then that's happening to white Europe right now thanks to the various "post" movements.
fuck yes anon, this is exactly what I was trying to convey but in a way better than I could.
I kept wanting to say (((they))) are behind promoting feminism and other theories which lead to slow cultural genocide, but I didn't know how to phrase that properly without being immediately disregarded by a normie.
>>74830717
modern alchemical process turning shit into gold
>modernism is bad therefore post-modernism is good
Wut
>>74831023
this exactly.
And I think if you're a general Republican you're okay, I would imagine most business owners support him.
>>74821414
What the fuck is "spooked" supposed to mean? I haven't read much about Stirner, but in what little I have read there has been no mention of it, despite the connection everyone makes between it and Stirner.
>This thread
>>74832237
ideologies are spooks
aka ghosts, they doesn't real
it's in the text, trust me
>>74818114
Philosophy fag here.
What the guy you are writing said is philophically sound but you OP seems to have failed to understand it.
Put it simply there are two options you have
A) There is a telos (purpose a thing is striving towards) of history
B) There is no telos
It follows that if there is a telos of history than history would get better and better every year, since it gets closer and closer to it's purpose.
He isn't saying if you deny telos you are a Nazi (you really suck at reading). He is saying if there is a telos than you'd have to explain how the biggest slaughters in History; The Holocaust and the Gulags fit into the narrative of history getting better and better all the time. You would need to explain BOTH of them in order to have a telos.
But if you don't think history has a telos you are a post-modernist. That's literally the defination of the word, at least in historical/philophical context. In the art-world post-modernism means something entirly different.
I will also that this. Most liberal ideas, including Proggressivism and Marxism are NOT post-modern. Marxism says the telos of history is a class struggle, Proggressivism thinks the telos is equality.
Other examples of telos would be
*History is the march of scientific progress (Enlightenement)
*History is man moving closer to God (certain theology)
*History is a racial conflict moving towards the triumph of the Master Race (Hitler's idea)
Listen, you can have wall of text discourse or you can win. The jews controlled his entire education and cultural marxism is postmodernism.
>>74832663
>postivism
delete this trash
>>74832663
Gotcha.
In regards to A) I just assumed it was rather a striving towards something that humans or societies decided to strive towards, rather than a purely inevitable course of history.
>>74829773
>The Soviet Union/Communist movement was founded as a postmodernist and poststructuralist system, by the same Jews that advocated those theories in academia.
Considering post-modernism was invented in the 1980s by the French I find this highly unlikely. The word doesn't even come into existence until 1979 and the guy that invented it actually attacked the idea of Communism.
You cannot be a post-modernist AND a Marxist. They are opposite positions.
>>74832869
read up on Whig History
"Instead of throwing all the positive developments of Western Civilization into the trash due to the actions of a radical fascist state, I would rather seek to detour and continue to admire and contribute to the culture that has given us the works of Shakespeare, Mozart, Beowulf, and more. Any other course would be unnecessarily reactionary, and no rational mind would do as such."
There you go, OP.
>>74828323
This
>>74818114
You are 'arguing' with a pseduointellectual who is just going to say 'have you even read x' to wear you down.
You can make an argument that 100% shuts down what he says in plain english and he will just try and wriggle out of it by making snipes at your taste. Everything they say can be boiled down to plain english and they know it would be better explained to you that way, but they don't because they want to intellectually bully you.
The talk about denial of the grand narrative is literally propaganda to make people focus on parochial and hedonistic things so they don't notice what the jews are doing.
>>74832379
Well...What the fuck does he mean by that? Of course they aren't tangible or binding, they are just effective models of ideal behavior.
>>74833434
unironically believing in anything other than yourself is a trap and a waste of time
>>74820223
Based Poland, the world is formed on fields of blood and conquest.
Poland of all nations knows this well.
>>74821261
It does not come as a surprise that the most intelligent anon in this thread is a Kuroneko poster. Impeccable taste, mon frere
>>74832869
The idea of Telos specifically means that the "destiny" of the thing is a fixed part of it's nature. It's course cannot be changed. You can only speed up it's progress or slow it down. You cannot change the goal.
If you just say humans can make a goal and strive for it that's not the same thing as telos. To give you an example for Marx the telos is the Communist Utopia, it is destined to happen sooner or later, people can't suddenly decide they want to have capitilism forever.
So honestly I do not think you have a real conflict with your friend. Both of you seem to reject the idea there is a telos. There are variety of ways for humanity to have a goal without going to telos resorting to telos philosophy. In fact most modern philosophy is not depend on teleogy. As your friend said it fell out of fashion last centuary.
Post-modernism is probably the most misunderstood word. It's not interchangable with "the Liberals", as I said some Liberal ideas cannot exist in post-modernism (for example there is no "right side of history" if you are a post-modernist since we can change our destiny). It's a school of thought that makes a lot of people very angry since it pretty much lives to destroy all ideology. It isn't trying to destroy "Conservative ideology to replace it with Marxism" it's a school of thought that would deny any ideology.
>>74832663
If I'm getting this right, to say that there is a telos of history means you believe that every action and policy taken by every culture and civilization that has ever existed is all under one umbrella (that being the goal that humanity is hoping to achieve)? I don't buy it personally, so that would make me a post-modernist.
>>74829899
>>74832957
marxism is basically a deconstruction of western civilization
>>74833738
Sorry, didnt see your second post. Well, I don't believe in destiny.
>>74818114
>reality can be bent to evil therefore anti-reality is good
plz send this fuck up a box of anthrax
>>74832663
he actually said the existence of a telos was the attitude that leads to genocide
his argument is that postmodernism is sceptical of or even denying telos "denial of the grand narrative"
we can also argue an anti - telos is a telos of its own. an end of history which marxists and fukuyama promised. even a postmodern philosophy has assumptions.
>>74818114
Postmodernism is fertile ground for artistic development? Then why has art gotten so ugly?
Why can art students not distinguish a random paint splattered overall from pollock's famous dripping paintings?
Why is there an overemphasis on the story behind it rather than the work itself?
Why are the famous and prestigious artists no longer honing their skill and art for years, but like yoko ono just screaming into microphones?
It is much more profitable for (jewish) art dealers and museum owners to prop up artists as the next best thing if they can make 15-30 works a month rather than 1 a month or less.
Http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nUDIoN-_Hxs
Just look how ugly the last 5-10 are in a history of 500 years of female beauty in art
>>74832663
All postmodernism is rooted in nihilistic denial. Critical theory, feminism, poststructuralism, having no telos, it's all different ways to remove current systems, mode of thought, without substituting anything for it.
It's simply the surgical removal of purpose and structure.
We can only look at the beauty in history while we birth one ugly thing after another. Though beauty is still being made, it receives no exposure.
>>74834893
art is a social construct
if everything is art, nothing is art
>>74833565
Not if it results in you feeling good and actually getting something done. Companionship and achievement are good feelings.
>>74833885
Your definition of telos of history is correct.
Many people hold this post-modern view. Ironically the group that are least likely to are the new generation of the Left. Their teleogy is that history is getting "more equal" and every action and policy is moving towards that.
The popular Max Stirner could be considered a proto-Post-Modernism because all meta-narratives and telos are spooks.
>>74834459
It is correct to say the beleif (I don't know about existence) of a telos lead to Genocide. When the death camps happened in Russia they justified it by saying they were "serving history". The Nazis had a telos that said all history is about a race war, moving towards the evolution of a Master race. The telos means the weak races have to die so the stronger race can triumph. Do you see how the Proggressive Left could genocide because of their own meta-narrative?
You are also correct in saying that denial of the grand narrative (telos) is actually sort of it's own narrative. Here's an example from the history of Post-Modernism. Michael Focault wrote History of Sexuality where he used Post-Modernism to argue that sexuality is fluid, ideas we thought were universal like gay/straight binary, are social constructs and that the ruling classes made this system for one reason or another. It was a huge smash success and he was praised as a genius for showing us the "true" nature of sexuality. Than Baudrillard wrote an essay called "Forget Focaulst". Baudrillard turned Foucault's own system against him and said the "truth" Foucault discovered was just another construct, another meta-narrative, no more authentic than the old one he had denounced. Focaulst was BTFO and never wrote anything for 10 years, when he finally did he had to completely change his entire theory. The development post-modernism got is that you can never escape ideology/meta-narrative ALL STATEMENTS try to push some sort of agenda, including statements that deny agenda.
probably too late but here is recycled post i made on tv about modernism and why it emerged:
Speaking frankly, early joycean free indirect discourse, and late joycean high modernist play (which was arguably born out of an acknowledgement that the world of newly emergent capitalism was an unrepresentable totality, and therefore the most adequate means of representation was one which captured unrepresentablity, fracture, confusion, mania, the spasmodic movements of our sensorium (see Woolf) etc)are both not Lynchian in the slightest. Lynch is much more a postmoderist, reveling in pastiche and dissimulation and irony, embracing the impossibility of representation and joking with its flaws. Think of the moment in Wild at Heart when Cage and the Blonde exit the car and start dancing to metal by side of the road. The music switches from diegetic metal hissing from the car radio to a swelling 'romantic' orchestral score as the lovers embrace beneath a radiant warm sunset. What is the meaning of this beyond 'hey look, im fucking with you! see how I've laid bare typical movie conventions and undercut them with an ironic mode?' The meaning is: there is none. It's just an empty, insincere, cynical joke, like most of lynch post the elephant man.
this is Jameson's marxist take on it. your faggot friend's 'grand narrative' idea is i believe, a misinterpretation of Lyotard's disavowal of grand narratives, which was not an attack on modernism but a poststructuralist attack on basic metaphysics and philosophy (like deleuze did). couch your counterargument within a discussion of a transition into capitalism. it gets you out of the box he set up for you at least
