The U.S. owes 19 trillion, but the Chinese owe 25 trillion. Japs owe a shitton. Do we owe it all to private banks? Is this shit real or just some sort of accounting books thing that's overblown?
http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/macroeconomic-roundup-china-debt-climbs-us25-trillion-nr-188350
>>72468247
you owe it to the federal reserve which is a privately owned banking system. yes it is real and its why you were born just in time to see the world burn.
You owe someone something just by being born in your own country. Haven't you heard?
If law cannot rule, then strength and violence will. Be prepared for society's collapse under its own gargantuan weight.
I don't pretend to know anything about it, but a lot of western nations are in debt to each other and themselves.
You'd think it'd be easier to cancel out each other's debt, but what do I know
>>72468533
When everyone is in debt to each other and themselves, does it really mean anything anymore
desu i can't into the concept of "national debt" either, especially when the numbers are retarded amounts like 20 trillion or whatever. who owes that money to whom and how the fuck would anybody ever be able to pay it off? why does anybody lend that much money? there doesn't seem to be any real incentives to pay it back or to limit your deficits, since every country just keeps borrowing magic amounts of money from nowhere forever.
>>72468247
something the jews made up to enslave people
>>72468689
it never actually meant anything
It's fake money on a piece of paper
>>72468247
treasury bonds are gov't debt senpai, those stupid things your grandparents gave you when you were little
>>72468247
>american education
>>72468247
Money you and your children owe to the bankers.
Also this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0
>>72468970
>also Canadian Education
economy based on debt
There are two kinds of debt in play here. External debt, which is debt the nation owes to foreign entities like other countries. As well as public debt, which is what the government owes internally.
>>72468713
no one will pay it off, people ITT make a stupid assumption that macro economics is the same as normal every day economics, at the level of nations economics is more or less just a joke, just something that assures no wars, dependency, debt are webs that tie nations together. That's never gonna be paid, on either side.
>>72468247
This
>>72468450
The shareholders of the FED are the Banks. Basically America extracts wealth/labor from all people, including Americans, and all other people under the Dollar Standard.
This is why the national debt is literally irrelevant. "Cutting spending" to "reduce the national debt" is a conservative meme since the debt could double overnight and it still wouldn't matter since it has no real world effects.
personal debt is real and can be scary. don't pay your bills and your shit will get liquidated.
who's going to liquidate the United States' shit?
>>72469605
this
>>72469605
To be fair dept does have limits.
Dept is fine as long as it increases slowly. It dept is rising too fast it means get a dollar, go to bed, wake up the next day and it's now worth 95 cents.
This means no country or person wants to hold onto your money for very longer, no one wants to really take it as payment, and it creates a selling frenzy where your dollar value tanks.
>>72468452
>lolbertarian
Yeah it's called duty you virtueless fuck. In return you get your civil liberties, all the other perks of living in America. Now ask what you can do for your country.
Hamilton got us into debt and made us a great county. Gotta spend money to make money
>>72468247
Think about it this way, OP. When the government doesn't have enough money to make ends meet, it sells a piece of paper to someone (basically an IOU, actually a bond) for say $970. In return, the person who bought the paper receives regular payments, say $5 dollars (called a coupon payment) for a set number of years, let's say 10 years (called maturity) and after the set number of years gives the owner a pre-determined lump payment, probably $1000 (called face value).
The amount of money owed to bondholders is effectively the national debt. Everyone who owns a bond, whether it be China, grandpa, or Goldman Sachs is owed money to by the United States government. Treasury bonds as they're called are a bedrock of the financial system and considered cash for all intents. Reneging on bonds would essentially be burning $20 trillion dollars and would crash the global economy with no survivors.
They're basically promises made to creditors that future generations will have to fund. Those creditors are mostly retirement / pension plans. These are promises that everyone expects to be met by economic expansion or population growth.
Invariably they are wrong.
>>72468247
When the government runs a deficit it's allowing the private sector overall to spend less than its income (or in other words net save). This is the most common situation.
By running a deficit the government causes excess reserves to accumulate in the banking system so banks can more easily lend to each other to meet their reserve requirement. This pushes the Fed funds rate down unless the government (Fed) intervenes by selling t-bonds or performing some other monetary policy action. The Treasury also can sell bonds if the Fed doesn't have any but it doesn't matter which arm of government sells them.
T-bonds are risk-free because the government will always be able to create reserves to pay the principle plus interest. Therefore effectively t-bonds are equivalent to reserves or cash. Example: QE did jack shit because it was mostly just buying up t-bonds.
Because the procedure is that excess reserves (by identity, equal to the size of the deficit) are swapped out and replaced with t-bonds, "the national debt" aka the sum of outstanding t-bonds is really just an accounting record of private sector net saving over time (which also happens to bear interest).
Long story short you should stop worrying about US federal government debt and worry instead about your own debts.
>>72468713
Bonds and Social security are the two biggest single chunks of our debt, and another large portion are pensions/retirement/benefits etc for their insane number of employees.
Things like SS aren't the government's money, strictly speaking, so they have to keep track of it when they spend that money on other shit. And pensions are of course just money they owe.
So, contrary to what people seem to be imaging, yes, real live human beings do expect/need to see a big chunk of that money in their hands at some point in time.
(the other part is bank shenanagins though, which won't/can't be cashed in).
>>72468247
This will tell you everything you need to know about the national debt.
0m:56s is the important part.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaVKf5Piqrs
>>72468247
China owes about 1,6 trln. That would be 16% of their GDP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt
>Is this shit real or just some sort of accounting books thing that's overblown?
National debt is that thing that allows you to live your life to its fullest today at the expense of your grandkids and the future of your country.
Hey can someone who isn't retarded and full of shit answer this question?
Most of US debt is owed to the Fed, if the Fed decides they want their money, can they make the government and people of the united states pay up by force of law?
Like lets say they ask that we pay all debts tomorrow, could they legally seize the assets of the gov and the people to get their money?
>>72468450
>>72469017
>>72469109
>>72469419
>>72470320
ITT: Scaremongering retards/tinfoilers
>>72469605
Interest on debt is paid by taxes.
Japan today pays 1/4th of its taxes to service running debt, they could spend it on robots and waifus instead.
So yes, it does have a real world effect.
>>72470104
> Gotta spend money to make money
so when are we going to start making money?
>>72470556
Evidence needed. Otherwise you are a fucking FUCKFACE retard. Same argument.
>>72470479
who the fuck would they hire to take back 19 trillion worth of money from the average american.
the army?
america better keep their guns forever.
>>72470556
not an argument
>>72470556
That's what the bank apologists said in the 1830's before Andrew Jackson fucked their shit up.
>>72470697
>Interest on debt is paid by taxes.
No m8. Interest on public debt is paid by your central bank crediting an account. Taxes do nothing but destroy financial wealth (for important reasons, some of which are quite obvious).
>>72470837
I mean, they have plenty of entities to do it, I'm just wondering if that is a possible scenario. I here people talking about the day when we need to pay our debts, I just don't get how it would happen. I mean, I guess they would sell off all that land out west and make sure all people with debts pay up or get put in jail. I don't know much about this so that's why I'm asking.
>>72469605
>This is why the national debt is literally irrelevant. "Cutting spending" to "reduce the national debt" is a conservative meme since the debt could double overnight and it still wouldn't matter since it has no real world effects.
For US, debt is when you print money and buy real shit from China for them (except that you don't even print money anymore, it's just figures in a computer now). That way, you can afford to have an average salary of well over $2000/month while most of the world considers $200/month a decent pay. When and if China and other countries get tired of exchanging their real shit for your figures on the monitor, the flow of all that shit that just magically appears out of thin air for an average American will stop, and you will suddenly have to live like everyone else.
>>72470770
Modern governments create and destroy net financial assets through fiscal policy and then delegate to central bankers the ability to buy and sell debt instruments to influence interest rates (monetary policy). Interest payments on treasury bonds therefore are a deliberate policy decision that the government could stop at any time. In no sense does the government need to pay off its liabilities - in fact we would have no financial system if it did.
>>72471384
What gives bonds value?
>>72471354
This guy is right. As long as the US wants to experience the world's best real terms of trade with every other country it will have to run deficits and sell bonds because risk-free USD-denominated assets are always in demand as the world's reserve currency.
Stop running deficits and foreigners won't be able to net save the Dollar so they'll adopt some other currency, maybe the Pound or RMB.
>>72471209
That is not a scenario that would happen they can't just call in the whole debt we make payments. Unless we default (again)
>>72471384
Do you recommend any book on the subject that's not an econ textbook?
>>72471653
Denominated in USD, risk-free because they're issued by the US government, they're one of the most liquid assets available, and USD can be used to pay taxes in the US (this last point is how money works in the first place).
>>72470104
>Lolbertarian
>Any insinuation that the last two generations in America were anything other than frugal spenders concerned with the well-being of this country means you're a lolbertarian
Fossils are so cute, when they're stupid.
>In return you get your civil liberties
Unless they're inconvenient for law enforcement or big money.
>all the other perks of living in America
How generous! I've been granted permission to fucking exist in my own country.
>Now ask what you can do for your country.
Vote Trump. Got it.
>Gotta spend money to make money
And then spend that money on fancy houses, cars, and country club memberships.
Don't save any either. Your kids and shit will foot the bill for your retirement. LOL
>>72471653
trust that the government will pay them what they're owed.
>>72471830
What happens if growth in the US ceases to be enough to cover expanding debt?
>>72471746
Right, so if we default the Federal Reserve can seize the assets of the people that owe the central bank. They could just become owners of any assets that we would use to pay them off, essentially becoming literal owners of the country in a day.
video games
>>72471713
>>72471354
How does this explain the Chinese being in debt to the tune of 237% of GDP as compared to the US at about 85% of GDP? How are they running the same system we are if the yuan isn't a reserve currency?
>>72471653
magic
>>72471827
This one is good and free: http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf
Note that it's not quite mainstream, but the facts are right. The author is an economist, former banker, considered a central banking insider, etc.
they own the debt in the form of government bonds. If they so choose to cash in those bonds, said society is fucked (theoretically)
>>72472430
And by fucked, you mean that they would own us, right? I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this because no one is answering me and this seems too crazy to not be a well known thing.
>>72472430
They being the federal reserve or china or whomever said "debt" is credited to. derp
>>72472019
Public debt to GDP ratio isn't important for a sovereign government like the US. If public debt outpaces GDP growth then it typically just means households have gone on a saving spree. For example, Japan has >200% public debt to GDP ratio because of high household saving but this doesn't pose a solvency issue to the Japanese government.
>>72469605
Don't they cut spending to balance the budget? Do they really say national debt? Cause fuck that. Money owed to jews that they printed out of thin air backed mostly by faith and blood. We should just kill all the fucking jews and bankers and their families and wipe the slate clean. It's not like there is very many of them. Or just pretend there is no debt because there isn't. Imaginary jewish accounting.
>>72472523
I really dont know, I assume nothing would happen because our country is very self sustainable. If China decided to "cash in", we say fuck off, they put in place embargos or some other political shit against us. We say fuck off again and become isolationist. Great. Its what we need to do anyway
If the fed decides to cash in theirs, I dont know what they can do if we don't pay. Anyone else?
>>72472563
What's all of this business about negative rates in Japan, speaking of?
>>72472083
Governments run deficits most of the time because their citizens are human and generally humans want to spend less than their income.
If everyone else spends less than their income, or in other words net saves, then the government must run deficits.
Generally modern governments issue public debt instruments to match their deficits as a procedure inherited from the Bretton Woods / gold standard era. This is not necessary but it does give central banks another tool with which to conduct monetary policy.
Some governments run surpluses because their economies have a trade surplus, or in other words foreigners are spending more in their economy than they are spending in foreign economies. In that situation the private domestic sector can net save without the government running a deficit, and the government may need to run a surplus to cool down the economy. Example: Norway. But not all countries can run trade surpluses simultaneously and in general government deficits will be the most common outcome.
>>72472925
Silly monetary policy where the BoJ subtracts a small percentage from reserve accounts and then issues bonds with a slightly less unfavourable negative rate. I don't know the specifics. It's because monetarist ideologues think setting the right interest rate can fix everything.
>Rationale for QE: More reserves, to encourage lending
>Rationale for negative rates: Less reserves, to encourage lending
>>72468247
If you owe it in money you can print to internal debtors (ie. Japan) it's roundabout taxation.
If you owe it in money you can print to external debtors (ie. US) you are winner and they are suckers.
If you owe it in money you can't print you can be Greece.
>>72472430
1. You can't "cash in" bonds, but you sure as hell can sell them to someone else.
2. If you could "cash in" bonds at the Fed, it wouldn't make a difference, because t-bonds are as good as cash. What happens if the government replaces a bunch of bonds with reserves? Pretty much nothing. See QE.
>>72468247
You need to be 18 years or older to view and post on this website, kid. Seems you have 10 more years to go. When you become a sophisticated adult like myself you can return.
>>72473949
So when is the day when China's "face value" payment comes? Somebody said you eventually get a face value payment after so many years of owning a gov. bond
>>72468247
Most of the debt is owed to the public, i.e. we own our own debt. Other countries can buy up debt for whatever economic or political leverage they can get in the future. China owns like 2% of our debt, but they would be retarded to try and force anything considering we're their biggest consumer and the worst way to run a business is to piss off your customers.
>>72473949
One last question, thanks for the answers by the way I've become somewhat interested in economics lately. I heard that China has pegged the Yuan to the Dollar, is it because of their bond ownership?
>>72468247
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0
>>72468247
>buy a treasury bond
>part of the national debt is now owed to you
it really is that fucking simple
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/tdhome.htm
>>72474214
When a bond comes due the Fed just transfers the electronic number from a securities account (bond) back to the appropriate reserve account. Then most likely they will issue more bonds that they've received from the Treasury to keep reserves at the desired level.
>>72474418
Does every 5$ in bonds you buy create 5 more dollars of national debt?
>>72474327
I don't follow Chinese politics/economics but generally pegging currency is a bad idea because it harshly limits fiscal policy. You'd have to ask the Chinese government why they do it.
>>72468247
The system that fucked us over is the federal reserves strategy of borrowing money to repay debts.
It's all a meaningless system of control.
They pull their money from the air and charge us for it.
capctha: 666
>>72473969
Nice flag, shitposter-kun
>>72474386
So Trump wants to audit the Federal Reserve. What might that result in under his presidency?
>>72468450
So is there isn't a reason we don't have a national bank? Or was that somehow even more corrupt than the private one we have now?
>>72474327
China manipulates its currency around the dollar. China is always making sure the Yuan is worth less than the dollar.
>>72468247
It's all fugazi.
>>72474682
Two shots to the back of his head from a book depository window.
>>72468247
>What the fuck is national debt?
Its what the politicians use to pay all the promises the made to get elected and its what the bankers later use to buy the politicians.
And its what you pay taxes and interest on for the rest of your life. Remember this, dollars don't come into creation unless some one BORROWS them. When ever a dollar is created it is created as debt, but the interest is never created with the original debt so there is always a need to add more debt to pay the interest on the old debt.
>Do we owe it all to private banks?
Yeah, pretty much every one but Syria. There where a few other countries at the start of this century but the US found WMD's and evil dictators in most of them so they where freed and democratized, like Libya.
>Is this shit real or just some sort of accounting books thing that's overblown?
Its based on nothing and its basically fraud. But you use USD to buy food so its real enough for you.
TL;DR
Enjoy your debt slavery
Ctrl-f usury
Sooner or later the interest eats the principle. Rates are close to zero or even negative in some countries only to stave off the inevitable.
Typically this is when they - the creditors - raise rates and collect all the real wealth as it turns into a game of musical chairs. There is not even a fraction of the money loaned out at interest available to pay back the debts, so the only other option is hyper inflation, bails outs, quantitative easing, whatever they want to call it. Painful for most everyone is what it is and the parasitic crime of the ages.
65% of our debt is directly owed by the US people
Something like 18% of that 20 trillion is what we owe China
>>72469605
Actually all the money being cut from spending goes directly to paying off the debt dumbass
I heard on the radio today that the federal reserve made $100 billion dollars in profit in 2015, through the interest owed to them from their bond ownership. The most successful "corporation" on the planet. Is our taxes what pays that interest?
This is real money btw, not imaginary. That money is accountable and going somewhere.
>>72475586
The Fed owning Treasury debt is like your right arm owing money to your left arm.
"Profit" is a very misleading term for what is basically just some unnecessary intra-governmental accounting.
Also no, it's not taxes, it's numbers on a Fed computer.
>>72475189
>Typically this is when they - the creditors - raise rates and collect all the real wealth as it turns into a game of musical chairs.
Its going to be pretty entertaining to see this shit unfold. Kek, some of my friends bought huge houses and huge 4x4 trucks because lol low interest rates.
The bankers are baiting hard right now, trying to get every one who isn't in debt in to debt. Soon they will reel in and start to collect.
>>72475586
They only get to keep a small commission, most of the Federal reserve profits go to the treasury.
>>72475189
So in essence, the real scumbags are those that wish to spend more because they raise the debt higher, which results in an increase the money supply more (causing more inflation and thus devaluing current wages and increasing prices), and they also require more taxation to keep the pace with their increased borrowing.
Granted, I already knew most of this, but putting it all together just makes Bernie Sanders supporters seem like the most miserable cucks on the planet. I don't know what's more pathetic at this point, them or Jeb Bush.
>>72475885
It's funny because Sweden erased economics from everything but their higher education programs so very few Swedes even know what economics is or it's many intricacies.
The west has pulled a Russia and created a population of ignorant peasants except these peasants are entitled as fuck and well nourished
>FYI: Anyone who wants to make boatloads of money could theoretically do so by constantly swapping currencies and taking out loans that you pay off with other currencies. But that's also illegal so have fun trying to do it without getting caught by the jews
>>72476047
Yes
Now you understand why we hate the left so much(though there are obviously many other reasons it's a big one)
>>72470479
I think this is an inevitability. It's more likely that the gov't will take a percentage of wealth from individual Americans, with billionares/millionaires obviously paying more than families that gross ~$60K a year. It won't be our generation though. It will be a generation too apathetic to care or a generation with a perverse sense of nationalism that would be happy to pay up.
>>72476951
I think sad for thumb king
If the national debt can't be paid off, why does Trump want to lower it?
>>72476589
>It's funny because Sweden erased economics from everything but their higher education programs so very few Swedes even know what economics is or it's many intricacies.
The funny thing is that the current system isn't even that intricate. Its all just smoke and mirrors hiding the fact that its all just a giant ponzi with bigger players, new words, better sellers and lots and lots of new idiots chipping in every day to keep it all afloat. You can read all you want about how interest rates does this and that and what inflation does but in the end the system will still fail, just like it has always done in history.
The only question is when. Ofc if you know how shit works you can still make a lot of money while the system is still up.
>The west has pulled a Russia and created a population of ignorant peasants except these peasants are entitled as fuck and well nourished
Entitled fucks that then think that they are entitled to a new phone/car/laptop and therefore freely going into debt.
>>72477394
It can be paid off, though. It's just more convenient to pay the interest off, but eventually the interest is going to take up such a large amount of the budget that it'll fuck everything up.
>>72468847
>>72468689
>>72468533
>>72468452
>>72468450
>>72468917
>>72469198
Retards
>>72469207
Probably has 46 chromosomes
probably
>>72468247
>image
>>>/tumblr/
>>72468247
Its failed trade and internal bail out.
Uprising when.
>>72477586
Not an argument
>>72478289
It doesn't need to be an argument for that shit.
>>72470467
funny thing about external debt is that when considering the net value, its often negligible.
It's estimated that we own China around $1.3 Trillion. However, China owes the US around the exact same. The net debt is effectively zero, so we are square with China.
>>72469605
>debt doesn't matter
>what is greece
>>72478549
>what is greece
A country without it's own central bank, no control over its own currency, and is enslaved to the EU?
>>72478647
Please name one country that has its own central bank.
>>72478549
>what is love
>>72478744
iceland
>>72478744
Switzerland I believe
>>72468247
75% of america's debt is domestic.
>>72468247
You owe it to the Rothschilds
>>72478744
USA
UK
Sweden
Australia
Japan
China
...
Oh, I get it. You're a "central banks are private companies owned by jews" tinfoiler.
>>72476589
>tfw have to finish my education myself
Its disgusting knowing this little of such an important thing
>>72468247
>Chinese owe 25 trillion
When the fuck did this happen?
>>72479577
>Oh, I get it. You're a "central banks are private companies owned by jews" tinfoiler.
You know that this is facts, right?
Oh, I get it. You're a ''the sky is blue'' tinfoiler.
>>72479685
www.cnbc.com/2016/04/24/financial-times-china-debt-load-reaches-record-high-as-risk-to-economy-mounts.html
>>72474694
cause the mother fucker on the $20 bill killed that shit
>>72479883
Tubgirl?
>>72479781
I'm truly sorry that you're this retarded.
>>72468247
The top countries are in debt, but nobody puts any consequences on us because we have nukes and a huge navy.
>>72479883
>>72479970
>>72479883
>>72479970
hamilton, but it might have been owned by the kikes already
The majority of the debt is owed to ourselves, it's certainly not some huge debt that China or some other country is going to wake up and cash in on and start grabbing massive amounts of our land.
This dude's a cuck but he still knows more than half of you retards, so watch the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ugDU2qNcyg
>>72474694
Andrew Jackson said it was "A den of snakes" and greedy bankers and proceeded to fuck them up by abolishing the national bank and start the panic of 1837.
>>72480009
Oh, I get it. You're a ''the earth is round'' tinfoiler.
>>72480247
why not have a central bank where if the government changed the people controlling the government would change too?
So what was the monetary policy after Jackson and before the Federal Reserve?
>>72472523
>they would own us, right?
It doesn't really work this way, you don't just suddenly own another country and it's population, especially when said country is the sole world superpower.
>>72468247
it´s to make the economy go in full circle
mexico pays your wall, you buy oil from saudi, they buy cow from argentina, then argentina buys Iphones and the money returns
This is for the retards to understand
>>72468247
A byproduct of Keynesian economics. Some export countries like China buy American debt to increase the value of the dollar, as they are an export based economy. The United States, however, spends most of its money on Stimulus, Wars, and Welfare.
It doesn't benefit anyone to "want it all back at once", like some conspiracy theorists might tell you. Most of the debt is held by a nation, paid for by the tax payer, and given to another National Bank.
It's all kind of silly.
>>72468247
The government sells bonds which usually have a 3% yearly interest rate.
You and I could each by won the government would 'owe' us money as part of its national debt.
They ahve to pay us 1300 at the end of 10 years.
Chinese government could buy this or steve jobs could buy them.
IF the government doesn't pay it back then people will get fucking pissed AND nobody will buy bonds anymore which means the government can't borrow money
