https://youtu.be/Rz8SmbVCK_s
See at 06:00 and especially 06:45
>Refused to negotiate
>SECURE OUR BORDERS
>Russia is the only middle man we accept
Now all Donbass people are crying: "Buuuu, evil fascists are making war on our land."
However it seems pretty clear to me all sides wanted war:
>Donetsk
>Russia
>Ukraine
Dear Donbas pigkeepers, how does it feel to have been thrown in a hell by your own very government?
I came to think the Donbass people are just brainwashed cucks.
They believe everything the tv tells them.
They hate NATO and EU but basically most of these grannies do not even have an idea of what they hate.
Ultra-radical pro-Russian orthodox activists think they are god.
Russia keks and corrupts Donbass politicians who are basically selling the entire region to Russia.
So where is the "muh evil West"?
When I started watching vids on Ukraine I was ready to grant the Donbass the benefit of doubt. I am awae0re Yuchenko and other Ukrainians are basically kek-tier corrupt motherfuckers (including Tynoshenko).
But this whole EU hatred. Geez. And consider Yuchenko wanted to postpone EU access... and that even Euromaidan people are okay with the fact it should be postponed.
Donbass people made me sick. Basically they demonstrate how easy you can get manipulated if your conception of "freedom of information" is "my grampa told me so and my neighbour told me so... so it must be right".
Even many people on /pol/ are like these idiot folk.
>>72111987
I hope russia gets that clay. A non country like jewkrain doesnt need to be that big
>>72111987
Russian speaking hohol, Ukrainian speaking hohol...
They're all the same to me.
They need to be exterminated.
>>72112830
you forgot to mention the Romanian speaking hohol.
>>72111987
That's some abstract shitposting there aussie
>>72113686
It's not abstract, leafbro. I am fucking confused.
I agree with >>72112781
But this doesn't change the fact all the people there are uninformed at best.
They are basically living this dream of "mother Russia's gonna protect us".
And it is kinda true. Except that they could've achieved better results by creating a federal State within Ukraine... but they weren't allowed to.
Fair enough. But who are "they"? The Donbass people? Or just some clever businessmen that can channel Donbass i satisfaction into a civil war?
>>72113001
Yeah desu, ukrainian minority in Romania and Moldavia needs to be killed.
>>72114176
Ukraine has been jewed apart by both Russia and EU. Just another proxy conflict, the cold war never ended and so on.
Of course Ukrainians are idiots themselves and initially planned to rip off everyone, while ending up the only ones who got fed shit.
>>72112781
>Giving land to Russia
Don't do this.
>>72114349
What's wrong Radu, You find their white skin triggering?
>>72111987
>So where is the "muh evil West"?
In Kiev of course. Backing the coup and the overtly fascist government that led to.
You say Russia wants war here, but where is muh evil Russia then? Why haven't they invaded? Why are being so conciliatory and so diplomatic if they want a war here? How does that make any sense?
I hope Novorussia gets annexed soon by Russia so the people can finally live in peace again and also get to live in a powerful nation again. Eastern Ukraine used to be the Soviet unions industrial region. 15-20 million people + New more western clay for Russia seems like a good deal. And western Ukraine can finally stop sucking our dick live as a neutral country
>>72114603
Do you have the "oblivion" version of your picture?
>>72114603
>open war in current year
All sides are backing their interessts there, while playing the good samaritan. Fact is that the only people suffering there are the poor idiots in those areas who think that either the West or Rssia wants to save them.
Nobody fucking cares about anything but that strategical clay.
>>72112781
You fucking Russian apologists are the biggest fucking cucks. They have been trying to screw this country and yhe rest for the West for centuries now and you fucking cucks think they're he good guys in ukraine and syria? I'm glad most Americans realize the threat Russia poses to our daily life and fucktards like you should just move to the Congo to be around people with similar iqs.
>>72114603
Go suck some Russian dick you fucking cuck. They are not our friends hence the massive propaganda campaign they've launched that has brainwashed you into believing their bullshit.
the thing is, /pol/ thinks for some reason that russia is any better than ukraine
most ppl here would rather meme about russian rightful clay than actually think about the situation
also it's interesting how they hate communism but love russia
>>72115383
>>72115491
Just came here to say you are right and the Pro Russian cuckoldry that goes on here is unbelievable. Pretty sure theres been a massive infiltration here and other sites by kremlin bots
>>72115790
>implying russia is communist
>>72114603
I think you get my point.
My point is that, aside from some occasional foreign back-up, the conflict is first and foremostly a Ukrainian conflict.
Yeah, some Euromaidan might have gotten gifts from the West.
Yes, Donbass people are being fed by Russians and maybe some Russians are fighting in Donbass (but not invading, just supporting the rebels).
The ones who hold the strings are mostly Ukrainian oligarchs and leaders if extremist movements (pro and anti Russia), who have all the interest to draw clear-cut lines: either with us or against us / all West is evil / all Russia is evil (depending on who's talking).
So basically what I see is that some Oligarchs or nostalgic assholes are cucking their own country and the people are following them like they were prophets.
>>72115383
>They have been trying to screw this country and yhe rest for the West for centuries
And vice versa.
We Westerners have always returned the favour, one way or another.
If Ukrainians have a few brain cells with common sense they will continue this little war for at least year. They now that Russians took the industry and anything worth from Donbass. Now it's a war that main goal is to destroy opponent economically. And Ukraine, as faithfull bitch to bankers, will "won".
Of course it will change if Putin decide to go full Bagration and Russians will march to the Dnieper. Then, oh boy, things can go in so many ways...
>>72115977
Ok I do see what you're saying.
Don't you think that having outside backing encourages both sides towards extremism?
>>72115790
>also it's interesting how they hate communism but love russia
Because, down to the core, most right-wingers in the West world are anti-communists and even anti-Russia... but they dream of being able to manage their own countries like Putin does with Russia.
You don't need to love the Saladin to appreciate how tight his grip is.
So fascists love Putin for how he acts and not for what his goals are. Even if, in a purely nationalist perspective, they woule antagonize everything Russia does.
>>72116074
Are you cucks capable of defending your manlet magistrate with anything other than soviet style whataboutisms?
If you are so critical of the US (as are most of the people here, within the USA) for those actions, why does Russia get a free pass when they do the same thing, if not worse things? It just shows you are needlessly invested in defending foreign world powers
>>72116272
So why is the ceasefire holding?
>>72111987
>ukraine
no such thing
>>72116386
Basically, Putin treats politics like a match of HOI3.
>>72116484
>If you are so critical of the US (as are most of the people here, within the USA) for those actions, why does Russia get a free pass when they do the same thing, if not worse things? It just shows you are needlessly invested in defending foreign world powers
It really doesn't. That's a shill tactic right there. It's the Tu quoque fallacy in action, and it's effective as a way to prevent discussion, because hey! look what happened.
Your allegation is a fallacy, *even if it were true* it would be a fallacy, yet others feel forced to explain it's not true anyway. And we've now shifted the subject of conversation away from the sensitive subject and now we're debating an irrelevancy instead.
>>72114556
heh
>>72114603
>use fascist as a smear word
>on pol
GO BACK TO VK.COM FUCKING SHILL
>>72114556
You're right, my friend from Barnervernet.
Only white people can act like this. I will never understand.
>>72116282
>Don't you think that having outside backing encourages both sides towards extremism?
I do.
But I think there are various layers of complexity.
The other day on pol I proposed the idea to see US funding like some sort of start-up management.
You identify some 5-10 groups that have a chance to succeed... and you fund them. Maybe directly, maybe without showing your face (i.e. acting by proxy).
The goal is that if at least one of them succeeds and becomes a major political actor, there you have somebody you *somehow* controll or have ties to.
Fact is the US have screwed this up most of the time. Maybe not "screwed up" in a strictly US perspective, but surely they ended up screwing things up for the people on the ground.
Chief examples are Saddam, foster-child of the US against Iran, who suddenly went rogue and had to be "substituted".
Same went with Talibans. The US funded many groups just to piss off Russia, but by doing so they bred their umpteenth enemy of 21st century.
Look at Syria: the US funded anti-Assad rebels, but some factions got deals with ISIS and ISIS itself is the result of Iraqi military being disbanded by the US and going "rogue".
(cont. below)
(cont. from >>72118481 )
So my assumption is that Russia is playing it by the book:
>shit is fucked up in Kiev
>goal one: secure Crimea (which is Russian clay anyway)
>goal two: secure the Donbass
Now, Crimea was easy because basically the locala had done everything by themselves and Russia was allowed up to 20,000 troops around their base. In fact clashes in Crimea were mostly rallies gone wrong.
Differently Donbass, both because it is not geographically isolated as Crimea is (no clear border) and because the peoples there had to be "convinced". Most of them ethnic Russians, but not *all* of them. Pro-Ukrainian extremists being free to roam the country. That's why you see the little bitching at the start or the conflict:
>this police station is Donestk clay! New flag!
>the day after: fuck you, you policemen should have defended Ukrainian clay. Change the flag now!
>etc.
So Russia chose to do it by proxy. War was inevitable, Donbass people had resolve but were not standing all on the same side. So they needed two things:
>local revolt leaders had to play it rough (keep the press at bay, no dissidents spreading Ukrainian propaganda, no "traitors" allowed to speak in favour of moderate positions, etc.).
>once referendum was done (rigged or not), again local leaders had to play it rough (no federalism with Ukraine, Russia is the only friend, we will secure our borders = new checkpoints, some cleansing, a little war)
In exchange, Russia:
>provides "unofficial military assistance" by doing something 100% legal on paper but dodgy in real life: they order units of Russian soldiers to take the lead of the rebel army, but at the same time they are discharged by the Russian one. So if they die or get captured they will have to claim to be just enthusiastic partisans who decided to join.
(cont. below)
>>72112781
nigga we shouldnt give them any more buffer land, we need a straight line when we invade them again
(cont. from >>72118599 )
Russia, as I said, is doing it by the cold war book:
>unofficial military assistance
>gently pushing local leaders to act badass instead of coming to terms
Russia is not afraid of war with Ukraine because Russia can win it. It is just the Donbass people who need to be convinced to risk their safety for the sake of some ideal advantage of independence.
On its own side, we see that even if Russia is doing things under the table, the strategy is pretty straightforward.
Instead, let's look at how the "startup policy" of the US just fucked things up:
>no assurance the new government of Ukraine will cooperate unless you corrupt them or offer them good shit. They cooperate now because they have no other friends, but there is not guarantee it will be like that in the future.
Compare with Russia, who once gains some puppets, those puppets remain pro-Russian forever.
>no assurance of stability in the long term.
Because, you know, when you fund a shit-ton of upstarters, you have no guarantee they will cooperate later with you, but neither do you have the guarantee they won't be eaten by similar competitors. So the best you gain is unstable allies with a lot of enemies.
This is why I think the US international policy is a bit too temperamental. Of course the military solution is viable for Russia but not for US for obvious geographical reasons. So the US tried to play it smart by pretending to be a grey eminence, but they made things worse.
Finally the EU tried to do everything in the open, but relied on politicians from the Baltic states to lead the talks. And they didn't accomplish much.
Final marks.
Russia: dodgy but straightforward 8/10
US: tried to outsmart everyone but ended up with unstable allies 5/10
EU: all official and legal, but poor choice of diplomats and poor leverage 3/10
(end)
>>72118078
Yeah fuck off, I didn't come here from anywhere, I've been here from the start, summerfag.
>>72117661
The person i was responding to was the one who propagated the tu quoque (whataboutism is a tu quoque) your entire point is literally just repeating my complaint for the post i responded to, but pretending i was the one who brought up the fallacious logic. Doesnt get more shill than that.
>>72115383
At least Russians are moral who only claim rightful clay.
>>72118714
That was me and I was definitely not 'repeating [your] complaint' - you asked why are people critical of the USA and not of Russia?
That's Tu Quoque. Go look it up, that's exactly what it is.
>>72116484
>If you are so critical of the US (as are most of the people here, within the USA) for those actions, why does Russia get a free pass when they do the same thing, if not worse things? It just shows you are needlessly invested in defending foreign world powers
You are wrong.
I don't get Russia a "free pass".
I feel relief when NATO defends my integrity.
However I have a list of priorities and I grew up with people telling me that it is more important we take care of our problems rather than try to fix other people's problem.
So of course when it is NATO, a group I am member of, which fucks up or does things I don't like, I feel entitled to be critical and actively so.
Because that's my "military". That's my citizen responsibility to stand up against misdeeds operated by my allies.
The fact others are acting even more badly is not a justification for my guys not acting in the most virtuous way.
When it comes to others, however, I am still critical, but in an armchair kind of way. Because I feel I am entitled to my opinion on everything: from Putin's policies, to hijabs.
But don't ask me to be an anti-Putin activist because even if I am critical of Putin he is not my fucking president or my fucking ally. So I will never be as activist against Putin as I am an activist against the EU fucking things up.
Basically, you ask me why I take a stance against members of my family instead of foreigners. Guess what? BECAUSE I FUCKING CARE FOR MY OWN FAMILY AND ALLIES AND I WANT THEM TO DO GOOD.
I also hope foreigners will become better people, but I do not care for them in the same way I care for my allies' moral standing.
>>72116645
>>72116931
Exactly.
So basically many on /pol/ want to play the game like he does. But of course if they met him within the game they would shoot him without a second thought.
>>72114701
Yeah, no. I don't give a shit about matters of 'clay' but Russia already achieved their goal of creating a rump state that is loyal to them. Anything else would be sentimentality that doesn't exist in Russian politics or planning.
>>72118714
>>72119111
Guys please don't fight and read this: >>72119199
I am actively critical of those I care for.
I am only armchair-ly critical of those I don't give a shit about.
Otherwise you wouldn't be able to understand the conclusion of my analysis: >>72118665 (with markings for everyone)
>>72116484
Tell me what I should be critical of Russia about
>>72116521
>ceasefire
Not such thing.
>>72119111
You really should read the post i responded to, My post responds to a tu quoque and deconstructs clearly why the tu quoque presented was illogical. Do you not think that original post was a tu quoque? I clearly state that the actions of other powers should not alter the legality/perception of the actions of another, but instead to hold all to a same standard. It literally does not get less tu quoque than that
>>72119631
You on the other hand are right, I overly assumed your position, in a sense i straw manned you as a typical Russian apologist, when in reality your opinions were far more nuanced and for that, i acknowledge that my post was somewhat stupid, even if i still believe your original post was fallacious on its own
>>72119951
My mistake. I thought things were pretty much settled since October.
But again this proves my point on how extremist the perspective is.
If Ukraine does not agree on a ceasefire, this means basically you are right:
>if we cannot have Donbass, we're gonna glass it so Russia will get little advantage from it
This is the rationale of a government that is expected to put people's safety *above* territorial integrity.
And guess what? They don't give a shit about people dying and even if it is clear they lost the war already, they're not admitting it and just dragging it as long as they can just for the sake of reducing Russia's share of the pie.
Now, Russia or not, NATO or not, EU or not, such tactic is criminal at best. And merely confirms the lack of moral integrity in the Ukrainian oligarchs, which have economic interests rather than ethical ones.
>>72120031
Now worries. I am glad we settled the matter in a gentleman way.
>>72111987
>/pol/acks actually believe there are "sides" in the Ukrainian conflict
Just how fucking dumb you people can be? This whole thing has been used by both America and Russia from the very beginning, with Downbass people being the "useful idiots".
>Putin got his sacred peninsula of freeloaders and can now brainwash Russians how much he wants, giving him almost unlimited support within Russia.
>America pulled Ukraine in the Western sphere of influence and is now going to suck it into EU and fill with rapefugees or whatever.
>Khohols got rid of Crimea and Donbass, both of which were dotation regions sucking the money off the centre. Now Crimea is Russian problem and Donbass gonna have a starvation therapy.
It's a win-win situation for literally everyone involved. Just sit back and enjoy the ride, as it's not going to end any time soon.
>>72118633
Dude, you can not invade even your rightful clay, but you somehow wanna invade Russia? Get some common sense.
>>72116645
>you
>not an edgy faggot
>>72121088
Have you fucking read my three-post analysis?
>>72118481
>>72118599
>>72118665
Haven't you read it?
If no = fuck you
OP here >>72111987 is meant to state exactly what you said:
>Ukrainian people are useful idiots
That's exactly what prompted me to write OP.
Far from me claiming there are no other sides involved.
But of course if the Ukrainians hadn't eaten the bait, it would be fucking easier.
That's why I think the more democracy you have, the harder it is to bait the country.
Ukraine was fucking easy to bait. Old people and nostalgic still think in "us vs. them" terms and they think of themselves not as proxies of super-powers, but as the protagonists of the fantasy tale.
And this is just dumb. Or ill-informed at best. And I pity them. But it's exactly lack of education and red-pills that allowed extremists to hijack the political discourse and fuck things up (on behalf of super-powers).
I don't see why my point makes you angry. Maybe because I say that even if West and Russia are to blame, the Ukrainians are not 100% victims... but maybe victims of their own stupidity or naivety.
>>72121563
No man. He just wants to draw the line once for all. He wants a status quo in which nobody expanda and nobody loses land.
>>72120317
Don't get it wrong, I don't write that they are killing each other like before. Status quo is keeped, but we cannot talk about ceasefire. Both sides commit "incidents" regularly.
And it's not only about territorial integrity. Ukraine is in so shitty situation, that if she lose this war she will become something worse than Belarus. They have to do some sacrifices. Also international banksters won't let go so easy, see Syria.
And Russia is not saint in this war. Not matter who will win, we will see another trial in Hague.
Besides, do not look forward to see ethical rulers on the east from the Bug.Turanianism man. Turanianism
