Muricans will defend this
fuck off you sheep fucking idiot.
Meanwhile, in the UK.
>>71905848
Yeah our healthcare/insurance setup is super fucked right now. I'm just doing my best not to get sick or injured and taking my chances desu
>>71905848
This triggers the burger
>>71905848
Better 643,000 than the entire country
>>71905848
How about in those countries the number of people who go bankrupt from paying others' medical bills?
but we have better medical service...
>>71905951
meanwhile in australia
[spoiler]fucking nothing you shitposting cunt[/spoiler]
>>71905951
>>71906079
This triggers the tea
>>71906035
>>71906048
>>71906067
>implying implications
>>71905951
>>71906156
Wow, nice, well thought out rebuttal
>Canada - 0
Thats because they died
Number of people in Western Europe who pay medical bills for muslims, unemployed, leeches and gypsies: ALL OF THEM
>>71905848
It still doesn't change the fact that health care is not a right. Going bankrupt is entirely possible if you have shitty luck. This is why having insurance is so important - which is why I wasn't mad at obamacare. It's forcing risk mitigation on people too stupid to understand the statistics without making health care a federally mandated right.
>>71906166
She bim boo nuffin.
>>71906700
So instead they are forced to pay a premium and deductible that increases dramatically each year. Claim BK and in 7 years it is like it never happened. The whole system is fucked up but BK isn't bad. Fuck I've gone pre se twice in my life time ,Chapter 7, and I'm doing just fine. BK isn't bad.
>>71906700
>without making health care a federally mandated right
What?
While its not a Right, its federally mandated and that's worse.
>>71905951
Those fucking teeth
>>71906700
78% of people who file medical bankruptcy have some form of health insurance. Too bad amiright?
>>71906973
And on top of that, most poor will have to claim BK. Obama care doesn't cover 100% so even if you have the O care you can still walk out owing tens of thousands if you survive the indian doctor and hijab wearing phlebotomist.
>>71906700
>health care is not a right
dis nigger top kek
>>71905848
How expensive is for a diabetic type 1 to live in America?
>>71907096
It's a free market, you pick shit insurance , you suffer shit fate. Does that have to be spelled out?
>>71907290
>google it
>average cost per month is 400$
What the fuck, I love Bernie now.
A question for United Statesmen
Say I live in the US and I've got decent private health cover, not super expensive but not the cheapest one, from a reputable company.
I have an accident, say I fell down the stairs or something, and broke my leg. What type of costs would I be looking at?
>>71907559
Cool. You will just pay Bernie the $400 dollars and then get your meds for free. Good job.
>>71907687
Don't be stupid, you pay Bernie $600 and get your meds for free.
>>719070
the short answer is that health care administrators across the country were getting fucked. For its faults, it now puts responsibility in patients to do their part. I hate that it had to be federal but in the grand scheme of things, I won't lose sleep over it. People need to stop being morons and take responsibility for their risk profile. Either that or we ditch Hippocratic oath and acknoledge that some people won't be able to afford medical services and allow medical services to kick the sick to the streets. I actually like that plan too - it's the most efficient.
>>71906079
Calm down, Ahmed.
>>71907609
My copay is $20. My daughter just had an MRI and it cost $6. The real cost is $2200.
>>71905951
Stop equating UK to the rest of europe. It's a third world shithole in comparison
I can tell, because that's where my country is headed too.
Yeah, I'm really happy paying 45% of my wages to go for the free health care and the useless asocial degenerates.
Fuck off you cuck.
>>71908075
Any idea how much it would cost if you had to have day surgery or maybe an overnight stay in a hospital?
I'm just curious because so much is made about how stupidly expensive health care in the US is but there's rarely much info from people who have actually gone through it.
>>71908135
You're a third world shithole too. You can tell because of all the third worlders shitting up the place.
then you're better off now knowing how many go bankrupt because of taxes.
>>71907609
No one knows. The doctors just bill the insurance companies whatever they want, and then the insurance companies pay because they're all a bunch of kikes. And why would you go to the hospital for a broken leg in the first place? Just set that shit yourself and avoid dealing with the faggots.
>>71905848
>>71908187
It depends on your policy, similar to shopping for home insurance. You are paying for the types of coverage you want. My wife spent a week the hospital after our daughter was born. I spent about $600 for that and she had a private room. My mom went to ICU for a few days at a time she was between jobs (no health insurance)and the bill was $10k. What most people outside the USA don't understand is that you can bargain with the hospital to get the bill lowered as the hospitals will take what they can get when they know the patient is uninsured.
>>71906700
Some insurance providers are already pulling out of Obamacare because it's losing them hundreds of millions of dollars, and the ones still in are having to jack premiums through the roof to compensate.
Turns out the people who predominantly didn't have healthcare were a bunch of sick poorfags who take from the system approximately a bazillion times more than they contribute to it, and when tens of millions of those people are all injected into the system by government mandate the entire thing goes to shit.
>>71908628
So, stupid question, is it still better to be insured than uninsured even if you're able to negotiate the fee with the hospital?
It seems that markets are more inefficient in this case.
>>71908479
>And why would you go to the hospital for a broken leg in the first place? Just set that shit yourself and avoid dealing with the faggots.
I already pulled my wisdom tooth out with a pair of pliers and I'm not making that same mistake again.
>>71908827
In the US, there is no national negotiation of drug prices (insurers are weak due to numbers, while medicare really isn't efficient or large enough in comparison), brand name drugs can be advertised, we have the highest paid doctors, and we have easier access to more expensive shit like MRI. Americans also take more drugs on average vs. single payer systems like Canada: (Canada averages 1.8 drugs per capita, US is 2.2).
>>71908688
Actually many of the poorfags use pre-existing services like Medicare and free health clinics (which are literally in every poorfag location). It's the sick wage fags switching providers that fuck companies. Too bad, they should have built that into their actuary tables before jumping into the plan.
>>71907559
>Tfw you forgot to change ID
>>71907609
$2000-7000 depending on the quality, place, reputation. Even with insurance it can still be expensive unless you have an expensive plan. You're also going to get some insanely priced prescriptions too.
>>71908819
It's always better to be insured, especially regarding health care. I can't tell you how fucked I would have been on that MRI.
>>71907479
The medicalcare and insurance markets are anything but free market and that is the issue.
Letting government take over these feilds that it destroyed is like thanking someone for handing you a crutch after they break your leg.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbl2VV_WjGk
>>71908479
>Just set that shit yourself and avoid dealing with the faggots.
Come on mate, I dont want to be walking about like a cripple for the rest of my life.
Seriously though, Ive got a question.
What about former servicemen, dont people who used to be in the military get free healthcare?
>Stub toe
>80,000 dollar bill
MERICUH
>>71909326
>What about former servicemen, dont people who used to be in the military get free healthcare?
the VA is probably one of the strongest arguments against government run medicalcare.
Ironically Sanders made it even worse when he was in a position to help runnit better
>>71909326
>american vets
>looked after
good joke!
>>71909401
How come, is it really that ineficient?
>>71909079
Looks like he just decided to answer his own question.
>>71908075
Which provider and plan? Monthly premiums? HSA? Family and Individual deductible?
The reason why people go bankrupt from healthcare costs in the United States is because our insurance companies don't negotiate. Medicare, Medicaid, private insurers will all pay whatever price demanded by medical companies, no questions asked. What happens is that medical companies and doctors make way more money than they have any right to make (80/hr for a surgeon, fucking really?) and the idea that medication is expensive becomes normalized so now individuals have to pay ridiculous prices if they don't have health insurance. And if an individual tries to negotiate to bring medical costs down to a reasonable price, it simply doesn't work because medical companies will write a story about how they can't lower the costs of service.
>>71906973
"I plan on never owning a house, car or having a job" the story.
>>71906700
>It still doesn't change the fact that health care is not a right.
The word care implies ownership or guardianship. Noone has a "right" to that. "Medical services" is the non-slave term.
>>71906902
underrated post
>>71910149
I think the "right" is to the right to not die in the street simply because you can't afford to pay wall street to keep you alive
>>71910124
I own my house out right (180k not a mcmansion) and also 2 vehicles are paid for. My wife and I quit smoking and now send our kid to private school. Fuck off cuck and keep paying the jews.
>>71910284
>Chapter 7 due to medical bills
>Still owns a house
>>71910208
The right to die waiting for a bed to open in a Canadian hospital is much more humane. You're right.
>>71910284
No, you don't. If you've done a chapter 7 you won't still own those cars as they can't be exempt. If you owned out right why would you even C7?
>>71910380
You can keep your primary residence in Chapter 7.
Instead people just die in waiting lists in those countries
>>71905848
Anytime you actually ask Americans "do you support Medicare for all" almost 60% of them say yes. It's just the medical industry spends a lot of money lobbying and astroturfing and paying shills on websites like this one to pretend our system is not a complete morally indefensible nightmare.
>>71910478
You can keep your primary vehicles and your primary residence under chapter 7. Chapter 7 doesn't mean they take everything any you walk away with nothing.
>>71906700
this nigga knows whats up
>implying that just because something is vital it should be free
>people who claim healthcare should be "free" are economically illiterate
nothing is free in this world. everyone wants their time to be paid for, so stop asking for "free" healthcare
>>71906700
>Healthcare is not a right
It is tho.
>>71907889
>>71907687
Both wrong. You give bernie 600. He sends poor immigrant to premium hospital. And you get an aspirin bottle
>>71910630
No.. no it isn't.
>>71905848
We have to pay the R&D costs while the rest of the world gets cheap medical costs. You fucks don't realize this. We pay the R&D of the shit that is your medical system.
>>71910683
I stand corrected. Thank you anon.
>>71905848
dont worry, conservatives will "defend" that by maintaining the line of THEIR narrative by any mental gymnastics (and even force) they deem necessary, just as the left does
>>71910719
This is one reason why the same meds cost $400 in the US and $20 in Mexico.
>>71908688
So what's your solution? I'm gonna guess you'd want to let them all die because you're le edgy /pol/tard who doesn't feel empathy.
>>71906700
>It still doesn't change the fact that health care is not a right.
Do you not understand how the concept of "rights" works, you fucking retard? It is something people collectively decide on based on their ethical beliefs.
A society could decide that food, housing, healthcare, electricity and internet are all human rights that every citizen should have (and many countries come close to this already) It cannot be a "fact" that something is or isn't a right in an absolute, universal sense, you worthless piece of garbage.
>>71910105
>(80/hr for a surgeon, fucking really?)
Aren't you fucking retarded. I guess you want Dr. Nick to operate on you.
>>71907479
>usa
>a free market
im having a hearty chuckle due to humorousness ive encountered
>>71905848
What part of "not having a right to the labor or others" is so hard to understand?
Socialism and Communism are both rotten fruit from the same tree (this includes individual and corporate welfare)
>>71905848
Cancerfag here. NHS is shit.
I had to go private so I could even get diagnosed.
>>71908538
>univ. healthcare has flaws
>therefore ANY capitalist healthcare system, no matter level/count of flaws, even if OOM more, is better
>>71910779
Liberal logic at work. If the government doesn't do or mandate something it won't get done. There are free market solutions .
>>71910782
no, it morally IS NOT a right
TAXES are morally not right
but we decide to enforce taxes anyways because mob rules
>inb4 crazy anarchist
>i still believe we should collectively pay for military, police and firemen
>>71910909
>>71910782
all of "morality" and "rights" is subjective
>>71905848
In The Netherlands, you cannot even ''go bankrupt'', only companies can.
How can a person even go bankrupt? i dont understand.
>>71910778
Yes. Basically the rest of the world is on US welfare. Trump will cut that out, and they'll be crying "WHAT HAPPENED TO OUR WONDERFUL SYSTEM THAT WAS WORKING SO WELL!?!?!"
>>71910964
>i work on a company, make it successful
>i now have to pay from my hardwork because you didnt work as hard
>this is moral
move to north korea, i think it might fit you better
>>71910105
Did you mean to say nurse when you said surgeon?
>>71907609
>What type of costs would I be looking at?
My co pay is $50 with a $1500 a year deductable
>>71910909
Are you retarded? Read my post again.
>>71910964
Yeah, exactly my point.
>>71911042
i didnt take any such position
youre thinking of other guy
let me repeat what i said:
all of that you are asserting and arguing over is subjective
>>71911102
no, you took the position that you cant argument for why something is morally wrong
and i disproved you easily
>>71910830
Surgeons used to be people you picked from the streets, gave a bit of on-the-job training to, and let them operate from there. There weren't any problems besides sanitation problems because nobody knew about those back then. Then some supermeme came out of nowhere and now to become a surgeon you need several years of expensive schooling and once you become a surgeon you somehow make $80/hr for a job people did for far less (adjusted for inflation) back then.
>>71910782
You have the right to
Bear arms
Free speech
Trial by a jury of peers
The pursuit of life, love, prosperity and religious freedom.
Where does it say you have the right to force a doctor, who's spent years of his life, and thousands of his own money training to be a doctor, work on you for free.
>>71911185
fucking this
>>71911042
but lets suppose i did take the position you are rallying against, here would be my response:
>2 guys burn about 2k calories every day for 35-40 working years, full time
>one makes minimum wage thru middle class income
>the other makes several dozen thousand times that
>moral
yeah ok bud
>>71911001
>How can a person even go bankrupt?
Too much debt; not enough income to pay that debt. The individual petitions in court to have the debt erased (after paying creditors what he or she is capable of paying). Credit is fucked for 7 years.
Not so hard, to understand.
>>71911154
i never said you cant argue for morality
is reading comprehension a problem?
>>71911001
>how can a person be unable to pay back loans due to running out of money
>>71911154
p.s.
me:
>its all subjective
you:
>posts another subjection to prove it isnt
yeah you deserve a cookie
>>71906700
>It still doesn't change the fact that health care is not a right
It's a right. No one can turn you away from purchasing healthcare.
Same as guns are a right. No one can turn me away from purchasing a gun. Any law that says different is an illegal law.
Neither rights are paid for by tax dollars. Though that seems to be what you are implying. Rights have nothing to do with covering costs. Gun rights advocates do not ask for free guns. Get it?
>>71911185
Did I say anything about what the United States Constitution guarantees as rights? Did you even understand my post in any capacity, you mongoloid?
>>71911277
>one guy uses his superior intellect to earn more money
How is that immoral
>>71910396
What exactly are you proving?
Even if there is no public health insurance, there will still be overcrowding in hospitals. The only difference is that they'll be paying for the operation from their own pocket.
Sorry if I dont get how American healthcare works and I got something wrong.
>>71911277
hahahaha what?
so absolutely no context on how they ended up on their respective situations? business decisions? schooling and education? criminal records? you know that results isnt the only thing you look at when discussins a subject, right? thats kindergarten level of arguing
as i said, there is no moral highground for taxes, and especially not forcing doctors to give you free healthcare
>>71911413
>Sorry if I dont get how American healthcare works
Well right now it's pretty stupid. Basically, if you work and couldn't afford healthcare before, not you still can't afford it and are getting fined for not being able to afford it. Thanks Obama.
>>71911407
doesnt necessarily matter how, rather that whether it is deserved/not, moral/not, right/wrong, ok/not ok is subjective
>>71911478
not=now*
>>71910630
healthcare is in no way a right, you are not entitled to the labor of others.
>>71911185
Why do you have the right to force your peers to judge you for free?
>thousands of his own money training to be a doctor
lol no
>work on you for free
this has never happened in the history of socialized medicine
>>71910901
You talk about the free market but are you familiar with price elasticity? People will pay any amount of money to stay alive and you don't really have time to shop for the best price when you're having a heart attack. Thus we get the fucked up and insanely overpriced system we all deal with.
>>71911438
youre not getting it, or fuzzy on what "subjective" means
>as i said, there is no moral highground for taxes, and especially not forcing doctors to give you free healthcare
at least not any that YOU agree with/ascribe to
>>71911510
bro im just gonna go ahead and say you make NO FUCKING SENSE AT ALL
you have no red line, you're just blabbering about random shit without giving clear examples, and when you did give an example you sounded lika a 5-year old nigger
just stop posting you are making a joke out of yourself
Healthcare isn't a right, it's a privilege. Fucking commies.
>>71911185
You have a right to an attorney, doesn't seem hard to add doctor to that as well.
>>71911617
my point is that any such "red line" is subjective
this isnt complicated
>>71911510
You just claimed that people making different amounts of money was immoral by saying ">moral"
Now you claim that morality is subjective so my point is invalid?
>>71911668
It is, but it's a privilege that a well-managed society is able to provide to all its citizens.
>>71911406
Well, considering the whole point of this thread is to trash american politics and view of healthcare, weather its a right or not. Id say its pretty relevent. But even so. Say you're a baker. Someone demands you give them a dozen loaves of bread because he's hungry. Isn't eating a human right, would you willingly fork over a profit. Something you've made and survive off of
>>71910284
In what kind of bizzaro world do you think anyone would believe that level of lie on the internet?
Let's assume for a second in the past you had money, paid upfront for the house and were debt free. That's your exemption for a C7 and you're well over it with a 180k house. You've have to be the most ass-backwards retard in the world with money to think that a C7 would be PREFERABLE to a split remortgage to finance medical payments.
>>71911185
Why even bother? Most Europeans are so deluded in their bullshit. They don't understand what it's like to determine their own fate and they will go "nuh uh" and "but (insert retarded reason or comparison here)" all day because they don't know better. They honestly think it's better to have every aspect of their life taken care of by the government without realizing how that can and has back fired for them. No a single European on /pol/ should be blind to this, yet here we are having this discussion again for probably the hundredth time this week alone.
>>71911696
You shouldnt have a right to an attorney anyway, any can represent himself in court, few can do surgery on themselves
>>71911718
no i feigned that position to demonstrate to you the relativity of your strawman here:
>>71911042
and just how it is subjective
>>71911727
By "well-managed", what do you mean?
Nobody should be forced to pay for other people.
>>71911718
the validity of your point is subjective, is this rocket science?
>>71911185
>You have the right to
>Bear arms
>>71911700
let's say everything is subjective, and nothing can be objectivaly be provable, what is your solution?
we simply go ahead and do what most people want?
>lets put a vote up to take all the money the top 49% of the people and give it to the bottom 51%. its not morally wrong because its subjective
>51% votes for, the minority is now fucked
>BUT HEYY XD ITS SUBJECTIVE
this is the problem, you make no sense, you present no solutions, you just blabber about "subjectivity" and dont bother looking at the arguments
>>71905951
>>71906166
>>71908538
Sure is Baron Rothmere's rag in here
>>71911399
>Same as guns are a right. No one can turn me away from purchasing a gun. Any law that says different is an illegal law.
Actually they can. Any gun store owner can refuse to sell you a gun.
>>71911795
>My strawman
Im not a swede mate
Your arguement is just as subjective as mine, its hardly a response
>>71911855
>honey, get my bear arms. Damn raccoons are back
>>71911185
>work on you for free
They get paid you fucking mong, they just get paid via government funds.
So many ass blasted Muricans in this thread acting like they have freedom from "socialism" when they're taxed just as highly as people who enjoy Universal Healthcare in order to fund their retarded military.
>>71911914
Store owners can because it's their liberty to decide how they want to run their business
He was talking about the government
>>71911413
The point is: Insurance does not equal health care
>>71911757
>Say you're a baker. Someone demands you give them a dozen loaves of bread because he's hungry. Isn't eating a human right, would you willingly fork over a profit. Something you've made and survive off of
If the society deems food a human right no one would need to come demand loaves of bread from a random baker, as they could get food from the government. If someone did, I would refer them to the government establishment that would give them food.
>>71911527
The government will compensate them for their labor. Why do all you meme conservatives think we're gonna enslave doctors?
>>71905848
>paying for the best care
>letting white trash, spics, and niggers die out
I don't see what the argument is.
>>71911830
Do you think, then, that there should be no taxation whatsoever?
>>71911865
>nothing
of course not, just very little
very very very little
can you guess whats on that list?
>we simply go ahead and do what most people want?
everyone will do whatever they can
>no solutions
never said i would, just that all of these arguments are not necessarily better or worse than any others
>and dont bother looking at the arguments
ive read all the posts, heard it all before
every single one is equal in that every person who encounters will decide for themselves it's validity
no one doubts you have an argument/set of arguments that absolute convinces YOU, and those who happen to agree with you
>>71912035
Ohh, you mean that military standing gaurd at your DMZ so lil' Kim dose'nt get too froggy.
>>71911557
>People will pay any amount of money to stay alive and
Not true. My uncle could have ripped through his families savings to stay alive but said fuck you all. He outlived every doctor that told him he only had months left. We celebrated his 22nd annual last Christmas get together this year.
>>71912070
its not the labor of the doctors
its the labor of the people who are paying the doctors
>in other words, those who pay more taxes than you
>>71912124
If we removed all gibmedats and focused on the core areas of safety and justice, taxes could be lowered drastically. Everyone should be able to choose what services they want to benefit from: paying for other people's shit is ridiculous.
UK healthcare is not FREE !
You pay it through taxes.
A friend I know from online gaming compared Dutch and British healthcare costs.
Long story short, Dutch healthcare is cheaper and the model for what obama wants to introduce in the US.
>>71911757
Universal Healthcare is not forcing doctors to treat you for free you complete and utter spastic.
>>71911940
that it is subjective is objective
this is the apex meta-position
>Your arguement is just as subjective as mine, its hardly a response
text book ad hom, attempted tu quoque
no need to get upset
>>71912068
So basically, gibs me dat.. I see
>>71912068
t. Five year old
Sorry faggots, if it has to be provided it isn't a human right. The only human rights are freedom of speech, the right to bear arms, the right to worship... If you have to pass a law to allow the government to put a gun to someone's head to provide a service, maybe you should consider that your idea is bad and you should feel bad.
>>71912124
Why would you pay tax for something that doesnt directly benefit you
Back in 6000 BC you gave the king one goat every year so he would keep people from invading you and taking all your goats, meaning that taxes were directly beneficial
now I give the president half my goats so he can give them to the people who were trying to steal my goats in the first place
>>71911865
p.s.
>one more argument (a strawman)
>doesnt know what subjective means
>doesnt know what "special pleading" means
>that i hold my position to be correct makes it special
*tips bullshit*
>>71912264
>doctors are forced to treat people by the government
America confirmed for least intelligent nation on Earth
>>71911770
It is all about timing. BK isn't a bad thing. I used to write BC loans all day long with people that were discharged the same day. Learn how to play the system or get eaten by it.
>>71912225
thats their narrative line and their sticking to it!
just like opponents to public education did way back when
>>71912358
>strawman
If I don't pay my taxes in order to provide for all the useless human trash in society, I get thrown in a cage. But that's fine right?
>>71912214
Then you cannot say on principle that nobody should be forced to pay for other people, because that's what you get as soon as you have taxation.
After that it's just a question of how much you should be forced to pay for.
>>71905848
At least they doesn't need to wait 10 years in line
>>71912035
Yes you stupid slant eyed faggot, when my country is already trillions in debt with no conceivable way of funding more social programs without shrinking the work force's actual income even more...let's just add more. We could save a lot of money if we brought 2nd ID and the others home to let you and your white cock worhsipping whores get fucked by the North. Being stationed in South Korea was one of the worse experiences of my career. Your culture is shit and your women try to replicate all the worse things about my culture.
>>71912339
you seriously dont make any sense
the fact that something is subjective does not matter, because what matters is weather it is moral or not. and morals can be objectively proven, both in results (if we look at history for example) and in philosophical terms
the fact that you dont wanna have an argument because you're a pussy who thinks everything is subjective doesnt change the point that you are still a faggot that is wrong and have not contributed anything to this discussion
>>71912321
You don't think freely available healthcare is something that benefits you?
>>71912068
>If the society deems food a human right no one would need to come demand loaves of bread from a random baker, as they could get food from the government. If someone did, I would refer them to the government establishment that would give them food.
>>71912433
No, you don't understand. If I don't want to pay my taxes, nobody should force me to do so. I simply won't benefit from the services that would be provided by paying these taxes. It's pretty basic stuff. As soon as you force people to pay for a service, you're no better than a mafia.
>>71912264
Police and firemen are funded through taxes. How are doctors and police/firemen fundamentally different? Why is it a "gun to someone's head" when it's doctors/nurses we're talking about but not when talking about police/firemen or other government employees for that matter?
>>71912428
you dont even know what that fallacy means
but then proceeds to engage in one
oh god the ironing
>>71912498
I dont think my neighbours healthcare is beneficial to me
>>71912498
it benifits him LESS than it does unemployed lazy niggers
thats the point
engineers will defend this.
>>71912428
Of course it is. You knew the rules, you broke them, you are punished.
If you're older than 5 and have not yet understood this simple concept I believe you are beyond hope
>>71912554
>giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.
wew lad
Well I guess it wasn't really a strawman, because the chink anon didn't even refute the argument he made up.
>>71912522
Yeah, that's a pretty shitty system in terms of getting people food. A better system is just giving people money (basic income) or at least food stamps.
>>71912539
So you would be in favor of a system where you can choose to become an outlaw for whom the services provided by the state, including law and order, are not available?
That's a remarkably consistent position, but I'm not sure how well that would work in practice.
>all the people saying that healthcare is a right on that basis that people say it is, so it is.
IF it's not in the Bill of Rights or Constitution, it's not a right. Plain and simple. That's how rights in America work.
It's illegal for government to stop you from getting healthcare, but not because it's a right, but because there are laws against that.
>>71912469
the fact that something is subjective means that how much it matters depends on who you ask
>morals can be objectively proven,
nope, depends on who you ask, and when, and under what circumstances
i.e. subjective
but yeah im sure YOUR holy paragon morality system exactly as it is now is correct, and that you were born with it (if you werent, then it changed, but must have still been correct all the way)
entire 3rd line is an ad hom
now if you had been paying attention you would see that the fact these positions asserted in this thread as subjective, it is vain to engage in them
then you wonder why, with that understanding, one might choose to not engage in them at all
>>71912676
no, law and order needs to be maintained so we have a fair playing field
but paying for someones food, clothing, healthcare and what not through welfare, taxation and basic income is not fair
>>71912542
Police protect and serve the community and cities they're in. Same with Fire Fighters. Doctors work on what ever schmuck walks in complaining about "Muh elbow feel funny".
>>71912597
A well-managed society doesn't have unemployed lazy niggers in the first place, and as soon as it gets them free healthcare doesn't work anymore - something I think we both know from personal experience.
>>71912632
No wonder your country's beyond saving, Abdel.
>You knew the rules
I'm questioning the legitimacy of these rules. Is it so scary to imagine a world where the government isn't here 24/7 to wipe your ass?
>>71912676
>become an outlaw
Where did I say that? I said I shouldn't be forced to pay for shit I don't want.
>>71912697
im sorry, did those documents/ideas exist forever?
the very notion of a "right" is a figment, man made, and every usage of the term in any law
If you don't want medicare for all then you aren't red pilled. The health of the citizens of a nation is the governments job to protect.
>>71912652
>>71912697
>IF it's not in the Bill of Rights or Constitution, it's not a right. Plain and simple. That's how rights in America work.
The American people can decide that it is a right now. The Constitution can be amended.
>>71912854
How does that boot taste?
>>71912469
ok lets try to simplify this again for you
>the fact that something is subjective does not matter,
how much anything "matters" is subjective
simple enough?
>>71912839
Yes anon thats why it isnt a right
Rights arent actually real
>>71910208
In other words, the right to charity, then. What about the privacy interest in one's own medical records (which under a "medical services" scheme, contract rights would cover)?
>>71912777
That didn't answer the question at all, you just described their jobs.
>>71906166
>her name is Bimbo
I thought they were insulting her by calling her a Bimbo but low and behold the africans name their kids Bimbo.
>>71912839
You're an idiot if you think this. You're right that "rights" are supported by people upholding them, but they don't exist because people say they do. They're a legal document that has very heavy legal weight. Hence why people go to jail for attempting to violate them.
>>71912854
>The health of the citizens of a nation is the governments job to protect.
What's next? Internet is a human right? Housing is a human right? Owning an iphone is a human right?
You don't get to call yourself red pilled, you dirty commie. I bet you'd vote for that filthy kike Sanders.
>>71912903
same line with everything that has been socialized EVER
>>71912738
again, i see where we disagree
i believe morals can be proven, you dont believe morals can be proven.
although as i said, if we look at results from history, you will see that subjective opinions yield different outcomes. free market capitalism has lead to economic growth and success
communism has lead to failiure, destabilizations, wars and economic misfortunes
rather than learning from this you will go ahead and say everything is subjective and say fuck it all?
>>71905951
>>71912876
And until it is, it's not a right. See how this works? Whether or not 99% of the people believe it is, until it's in the Constitution, it's not. Period.
>>71905848
Healthcare works but only in a 100 percent white society
>>71912854
If you want healthcare so badly, work for it yourself you faggot.
>>71912977
Yeah because that's how it is. You people are desperately clinging to the government as some kind of father figure that should be there to protect you at all times. Let it go.
>>71912791
>If I don't want to pay my taxes, nobody should force me to do so. I simply won't benefit from the services that would be provided by paying these taxes.
Law and order are provided by the state, and paid for by means of taxation. From the above statement, you basically say that if you don't want to pay for law and order, you should be able to choose not to, and that as a consequence the benefits of it won't be granted to you.
>>71912791
The legitimacy of those rules comes from the fact that the state is able to enforce them. There is no other source of rules, whether they are the rules a father makes for his children, the rules an employer makes for his employees or a state for its citizens.
You don't have to like those rules, but as long as they are able to enforce them the rules are legtimate.
>>71913006
>le socialism works if the country is homogeneous meme
No it doesn't. It fucking doesn't. All socialism does is breed a generation of apathetic estrogen filled faggots who think "love" solves everything.
Case in point : Sweden.
>>71912697
So Bernie can make an amendment in the constitution that everything must be free and then it would be a right.
>>71912929
yes, now youre getting it
>>71912963
You're an idiot if you think this.
stay salty
> You're right that "rights" are supported by people upholding them,
> but they don't exist because people say they do.
thats the entirety of every right, outside from enforcement
> They're a legal document that has very heavy legal weight.
that it is "legal" and how much "weight" it has is subjective
> Hence why people go to jail for attempting to violate them.
depends on how much money/influence/charisma/shrewdness/etc you have
>>71913090
Correct
>>71913001
>And until it is, it's not a right. See how this works?
Yes I do. But you clearly don't see how this discussion works. We're discussing whether it should be a right. No one claimed that healthcare is defined as a human right in the US Constitution. You're arguing against an imaginary opponent.
>>71913056
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. I won't be under the protection of the police if I don't pay for it.
>>71913066
You're basically telling me it's the law of the strongest?
>>71913090
A President can't "make an amendment", it need to be voted upon, which happens very seldom. Second, no, he couldn't, because it violates existing rights.
>>71913056
Law and order and healthcare are not the same thing.
Law and order are the foundation of civilization. It's the reason why humans congregated 6000 years ago into villages. To delegate violence to an abstract entity which represents them and (in theory) protects them.
The """right""" to healthcare is one of those 20th century socialist scams currently bankrupting the west, based on "muh feels" type arguments.
>>71905848
>netherlands 0
we don't have state run healthcare, we just get a bit of money to spend on insurance
our healthcare is essentially free market tho
>>71913082
Sweden is infected with progressivism stop mixing up identity politics with National healthcare
>>71913132
>Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. I won't be under the protection of the police if I don't pay for it.
And that's the definition of the word outlaw. One outside the protection of the law.
>>71912978
it is objective that morality is a figment as well
>learning
im not talking about pros and cons, or that anything was "successful" or not, or great or not, or any subjective adjective that can be incidentally pinned to any outcome, apparent or not
your missing that none of that has anything to do with subjectivity
>>71913126
>>71910630
>Healthcare is not a right
It is tho.
>>71911399
>It still doesn't change the fact that health care is not a right
It's a right. No one can turn you away from purchasing healthcare.
Try again, Mongol.
Healthcare is a right for the boomers. It is not a right for everyone else.
I love for all that evul socialist healthcarae talk neither party nor its supporters dare to touch the """""free""""" boomer healthcare.
The fuckers basically subsidize their healthcare at the expense of you.
>>71912449
America already spends more government money per head than they do in the UK with total universal healthcare you stupid cunt.
You already pay more or at least equal taxes to countries who have more services, universal healthcare, better education and longer life expectancy you fucking mong.
But you have MUH FREEDOM right? Freedom to get taxed out the anus to fund the CIA and a retard huge military.
>korean women replicating American culture
Our women get married and have children and stay at home to raise a family, yours give poet slams about rape culture while swallowing black semen.
>>71912945
My tax dollars pay cops to keep my neighborhood safe, and fire fighters fighting fires. Why should it also go to make sure that aforementioned lazy prick not able to pay for his own insurance gets a bed.
>>71913230
Sure then, I'd be an outlaw. What's your point?
>>71913132
That's one way to describe it I suppose. Of course we have long passed the times of the law of the strongest man towards the law of the strongest institution to make society work more smoothly.
>Hereby it is manifest, that during the time men live without a common Power to keep them all in awe, they are in that conditions called Warre; and such a warre, as is of every man, against every man.
>>71913178
all "rights" were at one time viewed as "socialist scams", since before the magna carta
>>71913225
>Sweden is infected with progressivism
And why do you think, genius?
Socialism = leftism = progressivism = cuckoldry.
Show me a single socialist party in Europe which isn't a multiculti pro faggotry nigger party.
>>71913243
so what is your point? what is your contribution to this discussion? i mean what are you trying to say?
we should all shut the fuck up because its all subjective? i mean i seriously fail to see what your point is because you make no sense to me
>>71913150
Violates existing rights? A newer amnedmnet takes precedent over older ones. 21st amendment stoppe the 18th amendment. All you gun guys realize the 2nd amendment is gonna be stopped by a new amendment in 100 years tops. Guns are gonna be illegal in your lifetime.
>>71913314
That is not true at all. You should stop reading reddit for your history.
Positive rights were never a thing until muh fee feels socialists popped up after the french revolution.
Don't confuse positive rights with negative rights.
>>71913294
True. Yet I disagree with the current model and believe it should be changed.
But fundamentally, you're right.
>>71907609
>I have an accident, say I fell down the stairs or something, and broke my leg. What type of costs would I be looking at?
My insurance is with the hospital system I work at and I pay nothing so long as I go to one of their hospitals. Outside their hospital systems I'll have a $50 copay and then some cost, but the insurance will pay me.
When I had a few moles removed to check for cancer it was a $50 copay and then I had to pay $700, but insurance reimbursed me for that so long as I filed for reimbursement. Went outside the system because it was either wait a week to get cancer off my face with their doctor or get it off the next day at a higher cost.
>>71913267
That's a different argument from the "gun to somebody's head" argument. Now you're just arguing that healthcare is not as essential of a right as safety.
>>71913274
I wasn't making a point, I was responding to you asking me where you said people should be able to choose becoming an outlaw.
>>71913314
That is because they are
>>71913274
the problem is outlaw is a loaded word, he is trying to trap you despite the fact that you are morally correct
instead of focusing on the meat of your arguments he is trying to focus on the terminology
>>71913400
Ok then.
>>71913267
A better question would be, why should the police and firemen should take care of the lazy or careless folk? If you locked your door every night and be very careful in kitchen why the fuck police and firemen should protect the guy who forgots to lock his door and has kitchen accidents on a regular basis.
Police and Firemen should be privatized.
>>71908435
Lay the foundation pupper
(how would that prevent a sinkhole though?)
>>71913371
>Shall not be infringed upon <
>>71913321
The BNP was a nationalist socalist party
Belive it or not you can be socially far right while being more towards the left economically.
>>71913371
You can make amendments to override amendments, but you can make an amendment that violates others.
If I make an amendment that says that niggers don't have free speech, under the 14th, it vioaltes their 1st, and is by existence, unconstitutional. Part of amending a right is overriding previous ones, and unless it states to do so, it cannot.
Do you have any idea how amendments, or government at all, works?
>>71913347
did i ever tell anyone to keep quiet?
>we should all shut the fuck up because its all subjective?
with the realization that it is subjective you should be able to see that, before seeing this, you thought your position was very very special, despite what anyone thinks, but NOW see that it is special alone to you and those who agree with you
same for every argument
>>71906700
>YOURE NOT ALLOWED TO TAKE RISKS BECAUSE IT UPSETS ME
Wow libshit. I bet you want cars, guns, booze, tobacco, weed, tractors, motorcycles, and anything else that is fun but causes harm to you banned too, right?
Statist bootlicking fuck.
>>71913417
He isn't making a point either way, so it doesn't matter.
>>71913441
Based
Why should anybody besides yourself pay for your healthcare?
>it is perfectly fine and reasonable for me to be able to call the cops or the fire department and have the government cover it, but when I call an ambulance I better have a credit card to hand
>>71905848
You can't give an NHS type system to a country as big as America, it just isn't feasible. The cost would be astronomically higher than the NHS. Our health service is pushed to breaking point just now, imagine how an American one would be.
>>71913499
yes but what is your point? to make me realise im not a special snowflake? believe me i know that, i used to believe the socialist propaganda aswell, just because i was redpilled doesnt mean i dont understand the opposition, they just fail to see where they are wrong
the nature of this board is to be condenscending and aggresive, if you cant tolerate it just leave it
>>71913384
way to follow the thread
>That is not true at all. You should stop reading reddit for your history.
subjective, ad hom
>Positive rights were never a thing until muh fee feels socialists popped up after the french revolution.
subjective, to say nothing of the steady increase in standard of living where such has been put into practice
>Don't confuse positive rights with negative rights.
subjective
plus this:
>a thing
nice vocab
>>71913441
Because police and firemen are not a profitable business. You don't make any profit from dousing fires.
To paraphrase Adam Smith : "anything which is required for the functioning of society but which isn't profitable is the responsibility of the government".
And before you say so, no, healthcare is not an unprofitable business.
>>71913465
it doesnt matter. a new amendment will ban guns. 21s overruled the 18th. a new one will overrule the 2nd.
>>71913545
Why should anyone pay to keep the street lights on? Why should anyone pay a cop to investigate your burgled home? Why should anyone pay for a soldier to defend your country? Why should anyone pay for roads for you to drive on? Why should anyone pay for schools to educate your children?
>>71913441
because if a nigger robs you, you would want that nigger to be dealt with accordingly, it has nothing to do with them saving you, all to do with punishing him
>>71913417
It's just a fucking word, the only one reading more into it that what it actually means is you.
>>71905848
shall not be infringed, enjoy your sharia law, that's the leftists robbing your money, cuck, etc, etc.
Don't bother arguing with animals, they aren't even aware it's a discussion.
>>71913630
>he thinks you can overrule the Bill of Rights
Good fucking joke, Bernout.
>>71913389
No, i answered your question. Why police and fire fighter, public servants, are payed through tax payer money. Doctors are not. They can only benifit you if you can afford it. Thats called offering a services. Once you make it a mandate its no longer "offering" your being "forced" to give it a way.
>>71913622
You could easily make a profit from dousing fires if you charged people for every fire you extinguished, exactly as health care provisioners in America charge per prescription written or surgery completed.
What a shitty argument, Japan.
>>71913620
>subjective,
It's not subjective it's fucking history nigger
>subjective
Once again, facts are not subjective. Well except for braindead leftists perhaps.
>subjective
I don't think you know what the word "subjective" means.
>nice vocab
Says the guy who incorrectly used the word "subjective" three times in his post.
Go suck on a big fat nigger cock you worthless leech.
>>71913622
>police is not a profitable business
What? Of course it is. Private security is extremely profitable. Law enforcement would be the same.
>>71913622
>you cant make a profit from dousing fires
Crassus made millions of sesterces with his firefighters
