Hello Catholics who browse /pol/
I come with a question. I want to know whether or not any of you consider Pope Francis to be an Apostate of the Church.
>Having heretical ideas
I am not asking whether or not Pope Francis has heretical ideas, I think it's very possible that he does.
But what I'm asking is whether or not he has done something which qualifies him as apostate?
>Supports LGBT
>Supports mudslimes
>Why is he even relevant?
We've had worse popes, and we will have worse popes.
>>71727611
>Supports LGBT
Yes he has said things such as "I will not judge a gay man seeking God" but he has also said that he is against homosexuality.
What I'm asking is not whether or not he has heretical views.
I'm asking if he's done anything that qualifies him as apostate.
The Papacy has elected Popes with heretical views in the past, but they have never once elected an apostate.
All people hold within them the potential for salvation.
You can disagree with their actions, but at the end of the day they are still human beings.
Francis has again and again rebuffed gays who keep whining about acceptance.
He is keeping true to the spirit of the church, which has not been strong enough in its activism.
Also, Muslims are our retarded Abrahamic cousins. They should be accorded respect, but their heresy should not be tolerated.
I don't see the issue people have with the pope, aside from people radicalized by the protestant capitalist machine in America.
>>71727865
I'm heavily considering whether or not I should become Catholic.
But I am afraid of the apostasy that might be present in the church. If an apostate Pope were ever to be elected then the Catholics would certainly be forced underground.
>>71727546
>Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία (apostasia), "a defection or revolt") is the formal disaffiliation from, or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. It can also be defined within the broader context of embracing an opinion contrary to one's previous beliefs.
As you stated, Francis is heretic.
Apostate? No, I don't think.
>>71727546
Only the Church can decide that. Catholicism is not a democracy. And most of the cardinals are far more conservative than you'll ever be, so they'll make sure he doesn't cross any lines.
>>71727858
Lay Catholics are not Canon Lawyers, which are the people who can answer your questions.
As someone who was baptized and raised Catholic, and in their 40's, I can say that me and many of my peers see the Church as too Liberal and as having failed it's mission. Vatican II is the smoke of the Devil. Shit, Catholic Universities are not even Catholic anymore. I used to admire Jesuits, now I see them as Liberal faggots. Which they probably are.
People are leaving the Church in droves because the Church thinks if it becomes hip and cool they will bring more people in, when it is just the fucking opposite - we don't want hip and cool, we want the fucking Truth.
>>71727546
No he does not have them
It's hard for a /pol/ack to digest the reality, but Pope Francis is not having heretical ideas. All of his positions are in accordance to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. He is just changing the "tone". He still condemns sin, but he embraces the Sinner
So basically he is " love the sinner, hate the sin " guy
>>71727546
He follow's Jesus's ideals, namely "let's all be nice to each other!" If that's heresy then the Catholic church is doomed.
Also Jesus would be disgusted at the ideals of the Roman Catholic church.
>>71728353
B-but...muh gays and immigrants!
>>71728330
It's certain that the Catholic Church has failed its mission in that it's become too liberal.
I think one of the main issues I have with it, is that it's become too much of a democratic theocracy instead of a absolute theocracy.
The Pope is supposed to lead and tell the leaders of the world what the Church thinks whether or not the secular world agrees with it or not.
It seems to me they just want to co-operate with everything the world does.
But still, I think I may become Catholic.
>>71728540
In reality, Pope Francis is somewhat conservative. But what he is doing is the mandate that all Christians must abide by. Mercy and peace
>>71728620
At least you could make a conscious decision about it, and weren't forcefully indoctrinated. I respect you for that my friend.
>>71728672
I agree that he is conservative compared to many people.
But wouldn't you agree that he has not done enough to condemn the nations who approve of abortion? Or approve of hedonistic, promiscuous and self-destructive behavior?
It seems that Francis wants to bend with the times.
I actually AGREE with Francis when it comes to gays, I think if they seek forgiveness we should not stop them and when he said that I smiled.
But is it all to bend with the times? Is that it?
>>71728620
Please do.
We have over 2,000 years of art, literature, philosophy, theology, ritual, and tradition to explore. This is something else the Catholic Church has utterly failed to do - to educate it's members on that rich history and tradition. I did not begin to see it until I was in my 30's.
>>71728088
Francis is just Benedict lite.
Personally, I was a big fan of Benedict's essays, and Francis is just Benedict: Facebook Edition
>>71728672
>In reality, Pope Francis is somewhat conservative. But what he is doing is the mandate that all Christians must abide by. Mercy and peace
This here.
Christcucks of /pol/ are not Christians. They are disillusion idiots too afraid to give up their Jewish myth because they are afraid the Jewish God will send them to the Jewish hell.
Cuck Francis is doing what Christians do, destroy their society for the goal of the Multiracial Kingdom Christ is supposed to bring to earth.
>>71728855
Ok remember that not only is Francis the leader of the Church, but he is also a head of state. If he attacks a country based on their "values" or "ideas" that will produce tensions.
I agree that he needs to man up and attack the vices, but not the people.
As of per gays, I have met so many gays in seminary, and all have great understanding of the faith and do not act on their sin
>>71728965
A true Christian knows that God's ultimate wish is for there to be peace in this world, by peaceful means. I live in a very diverse neighbourhood. Most of my neighbors are fellow Americans, but we have a few Ruskies, Chinese, a Jap family and some Germans. I don't mind it. As long as they keep their traditions behind doors
>>71729064
No I don't suggest attacking people directly.
But perhaps when a law allowing abortions is passed, the ambassadors from the Vatican should communicate that they disapprove.
I feel the recent Popes have co-operated too much with the centralization of world government, and world power, and world economies rather than remain grounded.
and I agree with you about gays in seminary. I have a gay friend from Canada who is Catholic.
>>71729332
Well the embassy here in Mexico did condemn a motion in Congress to facilitate abortions.
Who knows , maybe they do it, but we don't get any media attention from it.
Also I doubt it, because some Popes have been very critical of the exploitation of the consumer and worker needed by Neoliberalism for NWO.
Pope Francis seems to play into the Lefties game, but he is playing a different game. It's like Lefties playing Badminton while he is playing Tennis. Just give it time for his results.
Also send me an email, you sound quite intelligent my fellow anon
[email protected]
Who here has actually read "The Church of Mercy"
Pic related
Fuck off subhuman, that is not a pope of the TRUE CHURCH.
Is he humble? I see he is rich as fuck, does he say what jesus says? doesn't jesus say that homos and such do not go to heaven?
Truth is he does what is convenient while he lies, I bet he fucks children.
Trust me when I tell you that this hypocrisy is because THE TRUE CHURCH OF THE TRUE GOD says very different things, the bible claims satan is trying to be god on earth and to send antichrists, and obviously following those would bring ruin, and look at how he is careful to disobey while preaching it.
The truth is that GOD wants very different things from what these bibles preach, the actual CREATOR is the one they are calling the devil, HE wants lust because lust is fun and enjoyable for HIS sons, and look at how you have a prostate for anal sex, and look at how suspiciously humans look more like the guy they call the "devil".
Want more proof? Isn't the law of god in our hearts? Why do we desire these things then?
And beware of a god that isn't omnipotent enough to make his ways OUR ways.
And of a "god" that cannot be tested to see if he is the true one, that one is false because he gets caught and ferars this.
>>71729658
No thanks.
>>71730606
>and of a "God" that cannot be tested to see if he is the true one.
You're not supposed to test God, or tempt God.
That's in Deuteronomy 6:16
>>71730821
Firstly tempting is testing, testing is checking for veracity: Why does this very suspicious and contradictory "god" doens't want to pass veracity checks?
That's a demon trying to take me for a fool.
>>71727546
yes he is a heretic and he is shitting on the scripture for the sake of getting more asses on church seats
>>71730960
Testing God is vanity, and you just talked about the importance of being humble.
>>71731087
No, i said being humble is a bad thing because sure as fuck the pope is being very careful not to be humble, surrounded by riches and gold.
And you say vanity is a bad thing, how exactly will you prove this? Because certainly your "god" sure seems to be very scared of being checked for veracity.
Which people that is vain isn't living large? When has that one being not enjoying his vanity and riches?
And look at you freaks, you preach jesus but take good care to do as who you claim to be the "devil" says.
Show me one ONE single jesus followers that isn't a fucking hypocrite.
>>71731333
>Being humble is a bad thing.
>Vanity isn't a bad thing
Okay then edgelord.
>>71731486
Prove it.
>>71727546
>I want to know whether or not any of you consider Pope Francis to be an Apostate of the Church.
He's a heretic.
Scum and is defiling the church, pushing me towards orthodox
>>71731486
Know what, I'm going to prove things to you before you even try.
What is good? What is enjoyable, do you enjoy being humble?
Do you loathe being vain?
Are you a god to decide? Can you prove your god is true?
Do a miracle, I challenge you, your "god" claims you will do miracles, where are they?
HE HOLDS THE FEET HIGH
AND THEN HE GOES DOWN LOW
AND HE KISSES IT
>>71731486
Humility comes from the word humilitas which means degradation, debasement, and humiliation.
There's nothing good about being humble. It's fucking pathetic and effeminate.
>>71727546
All Catholics must understand the difference between formal and material heresy…which is also church law.
If you do not understand this distinction you are probably going to make the wrong call.
1. Material Heresy: Saying/believing something that contradicts Catholic faith or tradition.
2. Formal Heresy: Willfully saying/believing something that contradicts Catholic faith or tradition.
Francis is a material heretic. He says things that are wrong or very close to being heretical but he believes what he says is in accordance with church teaching.
Regular people and popes are allowed to be material heretics…obviously it isn't good but it isn't an excommunicatable offense. If someone corrects you, all you have to do was admit you were wrong.
Material heresy means you know that the Church opposes your opinion and believe or say it anyway. Martin Luther was a formal heretic because he pronounced publicly and in writing that the Catholic Church was wrong and he was right. That formally puts you outside the church.
Know the difference. And if you believe that Francis is a formal heretic you are wrong. Furthermore you as a layperson are in no position to call anyone a formal heretic (which can really only be done by bishops, cardinals or the pope himself)
>2016
>not being Orthodox
shiggy diggy
>>71727546
He did mention at one point how jews were our brothers in the faith, and how we shouldn't try to convert them for whatever reasons, so yeah he might hold some other heretical ideas.
>>71731639
Yes but that's not the same thing as apostate.
>>71731840
>Do I enjoy being humble?
I personally do
>Do you loathe being vain
Yes.
Look, if you're claiming that the true God would agree with every vile thing that human nature allows, then God would be totally neutral.
Because the fact that I am choosing to try and live a humble life, and trying to be loving towards other people proves that it is an aspect of human nature to pursue that for some humans.
If you're arguing that morality is subjective and relative.
Then I can tell you that healthy behavior usually doesn't include hedonism(avoidance of STDs, pregnancies, etc) it doesn't include gluttony(becoming fat, unhealthy and dying young) and it certainly doesn't include vanity(stops you from seeing your own faults, stops you from improving yourself.)
>>71731761
Fuck off faggot
Look at church history. The pope always hasn't been a perfect beacon of light.
You do not simply abandon the faith because the pope isn't to your liking.
You resist his mistakes and encourage others to do so.
You have a responsibility to fight for and defend the faith…not run away to a Slavic nationalistic schismatic sect like a pussy
Can somebody explain how his ideas are "heretical"? Didn't jesus wash the feet of lowlifes, scum and enemies? Love your neighbor and all that?
I find christfags always have to dip into the old testament (which jesus practically threw out the window) to justify being cockheads to other people
>>71732352
That's pretty much what I thought.
>>71732443
>>Do I enjoy being humble?
>I personally do
>>71727546
>I want to know whether or not any of you consider Pope Francis to be an Apostate of the Church
No
>But what I'm asking is whether or not he has done something which qualifies him as apostate?
No
>expect a thread full of larpers and pretent orths to shit on how he is a gay mason
>actually reasonable posts proving he didn't change church dogma
Pleasantly surprised
>>71732601
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkGTyndJC1w
>>71732550
I don't see anything wrong with washing peoples feet or being kind to your enemies myself.
But being Catholic certainly doesn't mean being a weak liberal punk.
Big difference between loving your enemies and showing mercy to them, and being weak.
>>71732550
He wants the church to give communion to divorced couples but traditionalists are resisting his efforts
You cannot receive the eucharist in a state of mortal sin
Just because you can legally get a divorce doesn't mean the church will actually recognize what you did. So if you are divorced and living with another women you are committing adultery which is a mortal sin…and therefore you are unclean and cannot receive the eucharist without going to confess your sins to a priest
Francis is trivializing the eucharist and throwing out the sacrament of penance/reconciliation
This is obviously bad and its only one example of what he is trying to do.
But it does not make him a formal heretic…it just makes him wrong and generally a bad pope.
>>71729956
Have not... Is it cuck: the proof?
>>71732820
>He wants the church to give communion to divorced couples
Source?
>>71732846
Quite the contrary
>>71732969
I've actually heard about it myself.
It sounds like something he wants to do, but won't be able to actually do.
Just like how some Popes have wanted to be able to make women into Priests, but couldn't actually do it.
>>71732969
Have you been paying attention to the news?
Every new synod he has is all about LOVE. But Francis confuses loving someone with tolerating their sin
The church should never tolerate sin. Sure we will love people and try and help them…but it is an act of false charity to tolerate their sin and bend the rules to fit the sinner
Church law does not bend to the sins of the day. The world must bend its will to Christ and the teachings of his church
This is where Francis is wrong and falls into trouble.
Every time you hear Francis wants a synod you should be scared because he's trying to do something that is most likely bullshit
Fortunately he isn't a formal heretic yet like I explained before >>71732352
>>71733040
Rumors are a lot. Since literally all of them so far were false (POPE ENDORSES FAG PARENTS!!!) I'll doubt this
>>71733270
>Have you been paying attention to the news?
Case and point. Stop believing huffpo headlines
>>71732443
>I personally do
These words are not humble at all, first you are claiming to be humble, which is not humble at all.
>>71732443
And if you loathe being vain why are you so vain about your humility?
>>71732443
No, I am not arguing this at all, I am merely saying that the bible was manipulated to place GOD in the place of the devil and the devil in the place of GOD.
So obviously the commandments of that "god" which you sure as fuck don't follow and I caught you in your lies, are not good things at all or particular commandments of god for that matter, nor the things needed for heaven nor antying special.
My proof? None doing these things seems to be pleasing enough to GOD to do miracles worthy of a GOD.
Tell me something, if you are able: Why did GOD place a prostate in your butt that gives anal pleasure to then forbid it? Seems contradictory is it not?
A TRUE LOVING FATHER let HIS son be a DAUGHTER if his testicles want. Because he is gay because HIS GOD wants HIM to be gay.
Questions?
>>71732550
Why do atheists think Jesus abolished the old testament? Is it lack of reading comprehension? The only things he abolished were blood rituals (animal sacrifices and circumcision) and some of the food laws, he explicitly says "I have not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it." The new testament doesn't erase the old, they go hand in hand.
>>71733354
Well I'm not that humble. I just think it's better to be humble. If I can be humble it feels better to me.
But what I'm getting here is that you basically think that God is the Devil, and the Devil is God?
Well, he hasn't said anything heretical, as far as I know. He is either just an idealist, or he thinks that his stance will bring more people to the Church. He is "progressive", wants the church to be more "inclusive", less dogmatic, more open, but always stays within the boundaries.
>>71732969
He says that he wants the divorced to "reintegrate church life" or something like that. But clarified that it didn't mean receiving communion.
>I want to know whether or not any of you consider Pope Francis to be an Apostate of the Church.
He's a traitor and a disgrace to Christianity.
>>71733339
I don't read headlines I read articles…sorry I don't have a database of francis heresy at my disposal fritz
go look it up its easy enough
francis tolerates gays and says who is he to judge…which is technically right. but he doesn't state the historic church position which would be
1. stop being gay
2. repent your sins
3. change your behavior and then you can be saved
Francis is such a nice guy but he is too nice to the point where he is throwing out traditional catholic principles
The Pope is the Antichrist, and his "Church" is the Whore of Babylon. Also, sola scriptura, sola gratia, and sola gratia.
/thread
>>71733651
That's still different from being Apostate.
>>71727704
>Catholic in America
You have to go back.
>>71733711
fuck off heretic
>>71733578
>But clarified that it didn't mean receiving communion
Wut? That's the exact opposite of giving them communion?
>>71733711
>protestants
>>71733711
I actually think that might be true, and I think it's possible that in the future the Vatican will be headed by an Apostate Pope.
But until then, I will heavily consider becoming Catholic.
It's not about whether or not Satan overtakes the Vatican and the end times begin and it's not about whether or not the Pope says heretical things or not. That's all happened before.
That's not what I'm putting into consideration when I say I want to become Catholic.
If you want to point at Catholics for their pedo-priests, then I can just tell you that I've seen plenty of Protestant Churches get into scandals for pedo-pastors. The only difference for them being that the Protestant Churches can dis-avow each other.
>>71733694
>but he doesn't state the historic church position which would be
He said exactly that. Yes you only read the headlines otherwise you would know
>francis tolerates gays and says who is he to judge
do not judge or you too will be judged
Those without sin shall cast the first stone
>Francis is such a nice guy but he is too nice to the point where he is throwing out traditional catholic principles
Unless you provide an example stop speeing this bullshit
>>71733549
>>71733549
Not exactly, I think that the bible got manipulated in such a way that lies got placed as mandates of god and the devil claimed these were his mandates before GOD so as to catch people who believed, Also I claim jesus is the antichrist.
And the rightful LOVING FATHER was placed in the position of the "devil".
If you have noticed, people take good care not to follow what jesus says, they say and do not do. Didn't jesus say it was easy? But they keep "failing" miserably and "sinning".
Show me them jesusbois that do exactly as jesus claim and are able to perform miracles proper of a GOD.
>>71733934
This is what he's talking about.
http://religionnews.com/2015/08/05/pope-francis-says-the-church-must-welcome-divorced-and-remarried-catholics/
>>71733958
Where'd you get that idea?
Did you watch the Da Vinci code?
>>71733958
Also, yeah, explain how a loving father doesn't allow what I said, his son to be gay because HE loves him.
What kind of love is that of A GOD that makes a son of HIS HOMOSEXUAL and then doesn't love the HOMOSEXUALITY HE HIMSELF MADE?
And what kind of omnipotent GOD is unable to keep a son in HIS ways? And how come a God is unable to pardon a sin? Like your "god" claims??
>>71734254
Sounds like you want to do whatever you want and just have God approve of it all.
Your logic sounds like this.
>If I'm tempted by it, it must be good
>If it feels good, it must be good
>God created those things that feel good, why would he punish me for doing them?
Just because something feels good, doesn't mean you should do it.
and just because something feels good, doesn't make it the healthy thing to do.
Maybe I like having sex and making porn.
But what a shock when I wake up one day and have AIDS.
You have to have self-control.
Just because pleasures exist doesn't mean you should live in hedonism, or live an unhealthy lifestyle.
Learn to make your own choices, be responsible for your own choices.
Don't blame God for your own vices.
>>71734482
Tell me something, if you are able, I will ask and you will answer:
How does a human get outside the WILL OF GOD? AND THE EXACT THING GOD DESIRES AT THAT VERY MOMENT?
HOW ARE THE THINGS, THE EXACT THINGS GOD DESIRES NOT BEING DONE AT THEIR EXACT TIME WHENEVER HE WANTS AND EVEN IF HE DOESN'T WANT?
DO YOU UNDERSTAND OMNIPOTENCE?
EVEN, WITH FREE WILL YOU DO WHAT HE WANTS.
I hate you all and am excited for the upcoming atheist/gnostic revolution...
RRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!...
>>71727546
Thanks to the pope francis i'm going to convert into protestanism
>>71733799
Yes, but he proposed that divorced couples could get councelling by a priest, who would decide after a number of sessions if the couple can participate in communion again. He also made it easier for couples to get an annulment.
Again, nothing completely groundbreaking, but it's understandable why some people are concerned. He wants the Church to be more open, but why should it be !
>>71733694
But he stated exactly that in the last synod, saying that gay couples are not "in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family". He hasn't thrown anything out of the window. Well, for now at least.
When he was elected, he said he wanted to retire in 5 years. After him, we'll get a nice, conservative, European pope.
>>71734727
>How does a human get outside the will of God?
By having his or her own will, which God will(by his own will, heh) not stop us from having.
>>71734884
Yeah I'll have to apologize on this. Been reading so much bs about Papa Francesco changing this and that I figured this would be another case. Reading up on it right now. Concerning
>>71734884
I hope this "Popes retiring" thing doesn't become a trend.
>>71727546
Apostate
>>71734900
>By having his or her own will, which God will(by his own will, heh) not stop us from having.
And how is that omnipotent that your free will goes against GODS omnipotence?
It's paradoxical and kinda apparently contradictory because omnipotence is exactly that, to be able to do everything impossible as it may seem.
Good luck condemning any human to hell, losers. GOD makes humans do HIS WILL, so they always do it, and the moment a smartass claims this in judgement day we're all saved and you progressively more and more fucked.
>>71735252
How is he Apostate?
>>71734867
Wonderful !
>>71735255
You're sounding like a Deist to me right now.
>How is that omnipotent.
You're confusing omnipotence with refusal to allow us to make our own decisions and choices.
God could make us do whatever he wants at any time. But he doesn't.
>>71727546
It's simple, you know. The algorytm goes something like that: Is he saying something ex cathedra? If not, you can ignore it. If yes, then look if he says something that is in conflict with Councils, Catechism, Bible and all that thing. If yes that you can ignore it too. As far as I know current pope didn't do anything ex cathedra.
Also, we survived worst popes and worse times. And we will survive this time too, even if we would have anothers schism.
>>71735292
Kissing mudslimz feet how can't he be an apostate?
>>71735504
Do you think we could have another schism?
>>71732270
The devil's favourite sin is pride.
>>71735491
You are making your decisions and at the same time this is what GOD wants.
The devil "thinks" he rebelled.
>>71735620
Because that's not apostasy
>>71735620
I don't think you know what an apostate is.
>>71727546
Every pope has been an apostate of the church since the end of WW2 desu
>>71735651
You're pretending to understand God.
It is possible for us to be able to have our own free will, and at the same time, God knows what we will do.
It is not easy for us to comprehend because our brains are 3rd dimensional.
Look at Super String theory.
Also, look at how time is relative.
If time is relative then it is possible to exist outside of time. God created time, and God is outside of time. God is eternal.
That means that our decisions are NOT based on a series of events, they are not based in time. They are based on our personal decisions, and our personal decisions are things that we alone are responsible for.
>>71735651
I think the devil's actual sin was to hate the sons of GOD and wanting to be their god, jealous of GOD. THEY were made superior to him and he was in disagreement apparently, or some shit like that, since scripture has been so whored about I don't know the details.
>>71735923
>You're pretending to understand God.
No, I'm not pretending, I do, and better than you, omnipotence means nothing goes out of your control, even if paradoxically you don't even desire so and at the same time you are able to do this aswell.
There is no limit, because there is no limit to the power of GOD.
>>71735252
>>71735620
But that's the thing: no matter how much it disgusts me to see the vicar of Christ on Earth bowing in front of and washing the feet of a Muslim invader, I doubt that it is in any way against anything said in the Bible.
The Pope sees them as poor, helpless, good intentioned people fleeing from war. That's as far as he looks. As far as many people look. And helping people in need is always good, right ?
We know that these people will not leave. That these people hate Europe, it's peoples, it's cultures, it's religion. That these people are only here out if greed to profit on the suicidal generosity of Europeans. I don't think he realise that.
>>71736189
>Omnipotence means nothing goes out of your control
Right, and us having genuine free will wouldn't and doesn't stop God from being in control.
>>71736267
>no matter how much it disgusts me to see the vicar of Christ on Earth bowing in front of and washing the feet of a Muslim invader
Jesus Christ reddit fuck off
>>71736189
>No, I'm not pretending, I do, and better than you
No you're not
>omnipotence means nothing goes out of your control
No it doesn't.
>>71736470
>No you're not
What does omnipotence mean?
It means you can do anything possible and impossible because you make it possible while being impossible even if you don't want it because you want it.
You don't understand a power so magnificient because you are not intelligent or wise or near to GOD.
Say, are you a god? how dare you place holds to HIS power?
>>71727546
Thanks for asking.. I do consider this Man to have made statements which deviate widely from Christian Dogma but he always slips out from his Position as Pope to do it reminding us that he is only infallible in matters of church doctrine and whatever he says regarding social matters is not changing church law or dogma.
Lacking a ThD I can't say with confidence he is in fact apostate but saying in the context of a co called ecumenical gathering of world religious leaders that all ways lead to the same God .. that is clearly heresy when uttered by anyone professing to be Christian.
best I can say is he is simply not actually a Christian at all. If you've ever read malachy martin's Windswept House you'll understand decades ago the subversion of the Vatican and the Catholic Church was undertaken in a deliberate and concerted manner and this man is of the fruit of that subversion.
If only one who is a Christian can be said to have become apostate then someone who like this Pope isn't actually a christian is not technically apostate .. "...they went out from us because they were not of us."
http://www.amazon.com/Windswept-House-Vatican-Malachi-Martin/dp/0385492316
>>71736870
>It means you can do anything possible and impossible because you make it possible while being impossible
Which means that people can have genuine free will, GENUINE free will where they CAN make their own choices, and God would still be in control.
>>71736941
>Malachi Martin
Actually, it's coincidental you mention that because I'm listening to his interviews right now.
>>71736963
>Which means that people can have genuine free will
While at the same time paradoxically doing HIS WILL.
Really, you're not condemning humans, I'm sure of it HE'S SURE OF IT and HE'S cocky about it.
>>71727546
>goes against the bible by supporting lgbt
>obviously gives no fuck about us catholics and just seems to care about mudshits rapefugees
>obvious globalist puppet
>argentine
>>71737111
>trying this hard to look smart
sad desu
>>71737111
Right, but it's still our decisions. It's still our will to choose things.
Which means we have the ability to choose what is wrong and sinful.
and just because something feels good, doesn't mean it is right.
Just like eating too much food might feel good, but you'll get fat and unhealthy.
Yes. If this were EU4 I would declare the Statue in Restraint of Appeals.
>>71727546
You think it's possible that he does?
He said we should not try to convert Jews, that Muslims are our Brothers, that all three of us worship the same god.
Christ is not what's in Mecca and even suggesting that to them is a good way to die.
Then he has no loyalty at all to the west or Europeans. He says the Us should let in hoards of spanish. Apparently genocide is acceptable when it comes with the possibility of higher rates of catholic attendance.
Then there is the fact that he has let major old cathedrals slip from our fingers. Houses of God are now defiles as sex clubs and centers of drunken debauchery.
He is failing the nations that made Catholicism, he is in a position to counter the Jihad and unite Christians against the muslim hoards, instead he welcomes them and washes their feet while they rape us and erode our heritage at our expense.
I would go as far as to say the Pope has committed Extremis Diabolus, if only we had a warhammer like inquisition.
>>71737400
Are you Catholic?
>>71737219
It's you who think's he's smart, I am wise like very few before me, like GOD has given me, there is NO limit to the POWER OF GOD.
>>71737269
>It's still our will
AND HIS
Look, you are nobody here to choose right and wrong HE DOES, eating is unhealthy in some manners? Sure, but it doesn't mean it's "bad". It's only unhealthy, and HE CAN MAKE IT HEALTHY.
You do not have any idea of what unlimited power means, it precisely means it has no limit and even more.
>>71737400
This is the exact reason atheists shouldn't post in christian threads. You look like a retard and ruin it for everybody
>>71737605
Right, but how does this help you justify vanity and pride as healthy and good things?
>>71737698
Because you are not doing something GOD has declared bad, you're just saying they're bad, as I said, we always do what HE wants, when HE wants, HOW HE WANTS and it is our choice because it is HIS CHOICE.
Because GOD gives freedom and at the same time we are HIS slaves.
>>71737965
>Because you're not doing something God has declared bad.
Except that he has.
You think the scriptures were altered right?
So how long ago do you think they were altered.
>>71737965
See, a son of GOD is a creation of GOD, that will always do what GOD wants, in the way HE wants.
And you're claiming sins here and there like you are gods.
I have yet to see any of you doing miracles.
Well?
>>71738084
The moment the devil caught an eye on them.
Let me remind you that TACITUS said that christians were abominable, what kind of behaviour would they have? An they were doing the WILL OF GOD.
>>71738084
Tell me something, is the devil smart or dumb?
>>71738399
>The moment the devil caught an eye on them
So you're just making an assumption that they were altered.
>>71737089
I was raised Catholic by older parents. who were born in the 1920's . My uncle who is in his 80's is a retired parish priest who was still saying masses till recently.
I stopped going to mass in the 70's when I turned 15 mainly then just youthful rebellion not based on any conscious conclusions about the church but maybe I sensed it lacked something important it ought to have presented..
I found masses dry, tedious affairs with little impact. Just rote ritual and form without life.
Mor recently I have attneded services at funerals and wedding of relatives and found the masses replete with politicaly correct terminology and the last service my cousin's funeral the priest had an effeminate spirit and my cousins rather pridful openly homosexual son gave the eulogy which into sjw ranting at times.
I know my cousin.. he served in Vietnam.. I know having two gay children broke his heart he has a gay daughter too.
I see nothing in the catholic church today to lead me to return. I feel it needs a revival that the spirit of God seems uninitested in igniting.
>>71738488
I can see why you feel that way, but I wouldn't blame the Catholic Church for it. At least not from my point of view.
I guess you could blame it for not being good enough. Which is probably true.
>>71727546
For now, he can't be considered heretic.
>>71738484
It is very easy to see. Nobody obeys that "god" of the bible, and it doesn't necessarily go bad for them. Nobody obeys that jesus of the bible and it doesn't necessarily go bad for them.
And those claiming to follow, are unable to do miracles.
Why is this?
Meanwhile supposed "devil" worshippers were burning in the middle ages for doing "magic".
Where has GOD been placed? And the liberties HE gives?
And look at this, the alleged "god" of the bible doesn't want to be tested for veracity.
>>71727546
>>71727611
>>71728088
>>71728672
>>71728937
>>71730606
>>71731070
The Catholic Church itself is a heretic cult. Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy are the only legitimate branches of Christianity.
>>71738781
You just hate rules and want to live however you want.
That's what this is about. You want to be approved by God without submitting yourself to God.
So been reading up on it: Pope Francis literally stated that remarrying separates from the communion and that no pope can change that. However he said there may be circumstances under which the personal guilt of this sin may be reduced for example if someone remarries to give his children a mother. In these cases the priest C A N work out with the new couple ways to integrate them into church life to be a better example for the kids and help them grow in faith. To which degree this includes the eucharist I find contradicting statements and purposely misquotes, but nothing official so far.
>>71737522
Protestant but I was considering moving over to Catholicism because they do not attack sciences daily like the bible belt in the US does. I went to a Methodist school and they very much deny all kinds of science concepts like tectonic plate movement, and epigenetics. Then they fall on the ground and talk in tongues (baby like babbling usually) to show off fruits of the spirit, and they make everyone re-accept Christ 3 times a week because they say God leaves you each time you sin. Protestants just sort of make shit up on the fly and they have no idea what standard interpretations or doctrines are. I guess I am nondenominational but I've always looked to Catholicism for guidance on what is standard doctrine. I don't agree with a few things in catholicism because I've been hammered with the reformation points but it's irrelevant right now, I have a lot of respect for it and support it as much as I can since the protestant church is fractured horribly.
>>71737630
Quit assuming things. I'm just an American and get shit tier news and have insane churches.
Looks like the Vatican says Jews aren't in need of conversion here. The pope has a lot of swing on statements like this I thought.
http://time.com/4145056/vactican-catholics-jews-convert/
If the only path to the father is through the son like the Bible says, then saying they are not in need of conversion when they hate Christ is heretical. I don't see a way around that.
Then this Muslim thing is crossing the lines on just appealing to them I think. Such as going to Mosques to pray and not reference Jesus or our God at all. http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/the-shocking-message-pope-francis-preached-at-new-yorks-st-patricks-cathedral/
>>71738781
Tell me something, if GOD is a loving FATHER, wouldn't it be fun if HE decided to make HIS sons "devil" worshippers who have sex with the "devil"?
And why would GOD forbid SEX? HIS creation, or not be LUSFTUL HIMSELF? OR ADULTERY AND NOT BE ADULTEROUS HIMSELF.
You're even placing rules on GOD.
And if the world is where the devil roams and fools people with his sons, isn't the most obvious move for him to place himself in the place of god and put there his antichrist?
>>71739060
*Priest can if all attempts to restore the "original" marriage have failed
So it goes if you fucked up the church shouldn't throw you under the wheels but show you how to unfuck your shit.
Not sure if that will include condemning the ongoing sin of remarrying in practice to a sufficient degree
>>71739272
Nah bro.
God places rules on us.
We choose whether or not to follow them.
>>71739387
>God places rules on us.
Show them to me and do a miracle that shows GODs approval.
>>71739281
I think that's fine.
If I get married, that will be the only time I marry ever.
I'm extremely dedicated as a person. I would never re-marry if my wife chose to divorce me.
>>71739510
Stop trying to test God.
Humble yourself before God and beg him to show you the way instead of assuming that you know.
You know nothing. God knows.
>>71739272
The whole Idea that God has rules placed on him by us and that by defining him with limits it means he cannot be omnipotent, that has a pretty simple counterpoint.
He's holy, it's really just his character and a critical point of Salvation. It's not that he is incapable of sinning, it's that he doesn't and predictably won't. Being all powerful doesn't mean someone has to do all there is to do. The definition of Omnipotent has no bearing on one's character, so having a character of infinite purity and will is not a limitation of it.
>>71738673
there is the Catholic Church in history and theory and there is what is has become today. I do not find within me any conviction to remain a member.. I ask Christ to lead me where he is pleased with his redeemed. The Catholic Church of today appears to have merged with the World to a degree it lacks the power to rebuke sin and preach salvation in Christ effectively .. if its head says you can reach God through any religion why should anyone follow Christ in the Catholic Church?
>>71740289
Well even Malachi Martin agreed in one interview that it's possible for a Buddhist to go to heaven if he lived his life as well as he could in this way.
But the power of that Salvation of course, always comes through Jesus.
>>71739733
Boy I'm going to be arrogant as fuck and humble at the same time: I'VE NEVER DONE ANYTHING THAT GOD NEVER WANTED ME TO DO.
>>71739733
>You know nothing. God knows.
Are you stupid? I know everything and I just explained it to you.
And just so you know this, me saying this, and you saying that is the WILL OF GOD.
AND YOU DON'T ESCAPE HIS WILL. Even if HE chooses it is not HIS will, even IF HE uses ALL OF HIS POWER AGAINST IT. Because at the same time he HAS the power do do it. AND ITS HIS WILL.
Because HE CAN DO ANYHTING HE WANTS.
ANYTHING.
Who are you to decide here?
>>71740273
>He's holy, it's really just his character and a critical point of Salvation. It's not that he is incapable of sinning, it's that he doesn't and predictably won't.
HE IS CAPABLE OF SINNING WHILE FORGIVING HIMSELF AND CONDEMNING HIMSELF AT THE SAME TIME TO A WORSE HELL THAN YOURS WHILE AT THE SAME TIME FEELING PLEASURE OF HIS PUNISHMENT AND REMAINING HOLY AT THE SAME TIME.
>>71740599
You don't know anything.
You're just batshit, with capslock for cruise control.
>>71738891
>Protestantism is the only legitimate branch of Christianity
>>71740917
You still don't get this omnipotence thing, do you?
>>71727546
The thing keeping me from really disliking him is that he has made no doctrine changes. All he does is talk. Catholic doctrine hasnt changed one ioda in years. All he does is urge or encourage people to do this or that, he has never demanded or made law.
Its almost like he doesnt have the power to change the Church.
I still have doubts about the legitimacy of Benedicts resignation. Until it happened i was under the impression papal resignation wasnt a thing.
I am far from calling him a heretic but i certainly disagree with many of his tweets and blog posts about how gays are fine and the Godless will be granted paradise for literally no reason
>>71740439
I would submit that it is only possible in theory becaseu God is ultimately beyond our understanding and may do as he pleases in all things. a Buddist who regularly and actively denies Christ is Lord and risen from the dead I suppose might find himself faced with The Lord the moment after his death and given the opportunity to follow Him but that's the most I can afford this idea ..
since it is by Grace we are saved not through works of our won the converse may also be true it is by grace we are saved in spite of our works denying its source... in other words God's grace may be invincible to those whom he has predestined to redeem..
>>71741218
>Its almost like he doesn't have the power to change the Church
Mhm, that's my concern as well.
It's almost as if he's a figurehead, and nothing more.
>>71739181
The Catholic church has actively tried to convert Jews since its inception. It largely succeeded. The vast majority of Jews from Palestine did convert to Christianity after 400 years. Most other Jewish communities lost significant membership from North Africa to Iran to Europe. The conversion stream has continued until the 1960's. By now it has effectively stopped. It's one of the numerous symptoms of the malaise in Christianity.
The current thinking about Jews goes two ways. First one can be both Jewish and Christian at the same time: be a member of the church while following the law of Moses. Second the non-disappearance of Jews is viewed as part of God's plan for salvation: somehow the Jews might be instrumental in saving Christianity from the devil. With this in mind, not working overtly to convert the Jews is a non-aggression agreement between the Vatican and the rabbis.
>>71741310
I think it's more that some Buddhists(an example) don't know about Jesus, or maybe even some Muslims who lived a righteous life didn't truly know about Jesus, or were lied about him.
But that probably doesn't stop God from granting them salvation.
In the same way that the Good Samaritan was right in the eyes of God, despite being of a different faith.
>>71741441
There's two different Catholic stances on that from what I can tell.
1: Some people think we should evangelize as many people as possible.
2: Some Catholics think that God is just going to deal with the Jews. It's written in Zechariah that the jews will "Mourn for the one whom they have pierced", but that many of them will be forgiven by Christ once they see that they crucified their own Messiah, and that they'll repent.
>>71741218
The abdication of Benedict is not a problem. There are countless examples of old bishops who renounced their charge and withdrew in a monastery in order to let a new able bishop handle the diocese.
The main message of pope Francis has been: avoid spiritual sclerosis and deepen your faith; go after all the people who are excluded from the eucharist because they are not excluded from the church.
I think the pope should not use twitter at all. Twitter is forum for invectiveness not for comunicating anything thoughtfull.
Gays and godless going to paradise, I doubt it. Sin does destroy you in time.
>>71741887
> 1: Some people think we should evangelize as many people as possible.
That is still the approach of the Catholic Church. For centuries there was no shortage of missionaries so the whole world was the target of conversion. Now the church is short of people so they have to prioritise. Jews are not a priority; for now.
>>71742121
I honestly just want to be able to sit with fellow believers and discuss theology without it being some taboo thing.
>>71742369
I'd like to see that.
Honestly if I had the gift of celibacy and didn't love girls so much, I'd become a Priest.
Are there good ways to become a theologian and work within the Church without being a Priest?
I'm 21, I'm a young guy and I think I could do a lot.
I think slide threads are in effect right now.
Probs not for this thread tho.
>>71732270
Humility makes you happy annon I can asure you that. When you become humble you think that you dont deserve things because you are "not worthy" but god makes us deserve it anyway, you can feel the happyness in that you become more aware of god's gif for you. Its really hard to explain but being truly humble its one of the most hard things to be.
>>71732601
I do enjoy being humble too anon
>>71742665
You do not need to be a theologian to work for the church. But you can choose to learn a few things along these lines. Most priests have some knowledge of theology but are not theologians; bishops are the same. Actually many dioceses employ some theologians to be able to answer questions. The Holy See has dedicated groups to help dioceses handle theological questions. But every day life and teaching in the church does not involve complicated theology.
You can do paid work for the church or volunteer work. There are so many ways to help: teach cathechism; teach for confimation or adult baptism; help the parish council; attend or set up a prayer group; organise a choir or a band; attend or set up a group of lectio divina or scripture reading; become a lay associate of a religious order like franciscans, dominicans, jesuits, opus dei, benedictines, etc; go or organise a pilgrimage.
I advise you to gravitate around a religious order as a layman. Pick one that corresponds to your character and interests. Get in contact with them and start attending activities organised for laymen. In time you learn a lot, it is enriching and you have opportunities to serve and give back.
>>71736189
Man you are so full of hate for no reason. If you dont like it just leave it. You CANT understand god. Y pensar que ustedes nos trajeron la religión.
>>71740995
Man you are salty as fuck. Thanks for bringing Jesus to our country m8
