>there are people in this board right now that support a flat tax system
Explain yourselves
>>71439156
I get royally fucked by a progressive tax system. We really, really need to be cutting all the chaff from our bureaucracy.
>>71439156
Fair Tax (flat consumption sales tax) comes with a built in basic guaranteed income for all.
>>71439156
Flat tax? I'm all for repealing the 16th Amendment.
they're retarded
if we went back to taxing the top income rate at 90% we wouldn't have to tax anyone in the working/middle class hardly at all.
Instead retarded "conservatives" want to give a tax break to George Soros, Mark Zuckerberg, and wall street, the exact people who are fucking them over constantly and pushing leftist social bullshit.
>>71439156
>Flat tax means somehow rich people will crush poor people
I don't get what this artist is trying to convey. That impression is obviously false and wouldn't be the real world case.
>>71439645
That's not how reality works, child.
>>71439691
Except it is because the lower wage earners have to pay far more in relation to the rich with a flat tax
>>71439868
yeah because the 1950s were such an economic wasteland right?
>>71440023
> the 1950s were such an economic wasteland right?
We were the only competitive industrialized nation in the world after everybody else had been bombed into dust during WW2.
So yeah, times were good.
>>71440281
>We were the only competitive industrialized nation in the world
nope, thanks to Keynesian economics, and billions of dollars from the US in the Marshall Plan Germany and the rest of Western Europe was doing great.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirtschaftswunder
>>71439156
As long as the IRS lose their jobs im happy
>>71440023
Then give a tax cut to the bottom portion of society. 15% for middle class, maybe 20% max for hpper class
>>71440281
>thinks the USA had a primarily export-driven economy in the 1950s
Tax is theft.
Why should I be made to pay for roads and bridges that I never drive on?
And why does every road in my have pot holes if my taxes supposedly go to maintain them?
>>71439645
Nobody paid 90%
You're an idiot
>>71439156
>Explain yourselves
>>71439156
You combine a flat tax with removing most if not all loopholes.
This is the part everyone misses, you can't have
deductions anymore.
>>71439645
>want to give a tax break to George Soros, Mark Zuckerberg, and wall street,
No.
You remove most chances they have to hide money, then flat tax the rest.
The rich actually wind up paying A LOT MORE,
because before they pay zero.
>>71440023
>lower wage earners have to pay far more in relation to the rich with a flat tax
You can raise the minimum tax exemption level from let's say 10k to 17-18k, that will help the poor.
>>71440023
>1950s were such an economic wasteland right
No, but there was nowhere to remove your money and hide it.
Now it's a few clicks on the computer, and it's out of the country.
Its fair.
>>71440499
In the 50's? Ya nah
>thanks to keynesian economics
T
O
P
L
E
L
>>71440683
there should be next to no taxation on the middle/lower classes. That's how the original tax system in the US was until FDR fucked everything up with social security.
>>71440737
prove it
>>71439645
>taxing the top income rate at 90%
wow it it wasnt the [[current year]] I would assume you were just a troll
but people as retarded as this actually exist.
>>71440683
That is what Trump is proposing, Those making under 25k a year if single and 50k if married will pay no taxes whatsoever.
>>71440722
Because there is more than just you living in this country and keeping people employed. People need Roads and bridges to help businesses, thus keeping people employed.
>>71439156
Everyone paying the same rate is fair. Increasing the rate so that richer people pay proportionally more when they'd already be paying absolutely more is unfair.
Because wealth begets wealth. The first billion is always the hardest.
>>71440750
>You remove most chances they have to hide money
No you don't they'll always have accountants to jew them out of things
>You can raise the minimum tax exemption level from let's say 10k to 17-18k, that will help the poor.
That won't help the middle class. They should be paying next to nothing.
>No, but there was nowhere to remove your money and hide it.
prove it
>>71440816
>That's how the original tax system in the US was until FDR fucked everything up with social security.
that was before everything went to shit
I'm sure a lot of the taxation sources back then are dead thanks to tax havens being pretty much mandatory for corporations and high net worth individuals
>>71440954
Everyone already pays the same rates.
Its called tax brackets.
If the rich want to pay less taxes, they only have to decrease their income.
>>71440804
So you're denying the economic reality that billions of dollars invested by the US led to a recovery in Europe?
>>71440858
are you saying the 1950s were shit then?
i don't really care about taking more from wealthy people, but only if we're talking obscenely wealthy, where the money makes little to no impact on their lifestyle.
>>71440898
>we must keep putting money into the machine to make busy work for people so they have enough money to put into the machine.
>>71441152
then tax policy needs to be changed and revenue from the top earners hidden overseas needs to be brought back.
>>71441160
No the opposite of that. Tax brackets are exactly how different people pay different proportions of their income in taxes.
>>71439156
>edstein
>>71441328
but one effects standard of living far more than the other
paying 30% of a $30,000 is far worse than paying 30% on a $30 million
>>71441194
Then you're taxing the wrong "rich" people anyways. No one who cashes a paycheck to make their money is a "cash hoarder" and yet when we're talking about income tax it's exactly those people were talking about taxing. Not billionaire bank executives but engineers and doctors spending half their income on student loans while actively contributing to improving our society.
>>71441314
How are you going to get that money back? Stamp your feet? Hold your breath? Wag your fingers?
The only thing that's going to out that cash back into American finance is if it makes economic sense to the owners of that cash to do so.
>>71441490
Ok then they both should only pay 10%
Problem solved.
>punishing people for being successful
People must be treated equally.
>>71439156
>le monopoly man with bags of money
Fucking brilliant satire. 10/10.
>>71441577
middle to lower upper class people shouldn't be taxed
you only have to have a high capital gains/income tax for the top tax rate
>>71441710
Start punishing the corporations here until they play ball.
>>71441781
that's retarded
having $21,000 is much worse than having $21 million
how are you this retarded?
>>71441905
that's why you don't punish people for making less.
>>71440804
>he prefers jewish economics
proper goyim, this one is.
>>71441314
Tech industry management consultant here. The offshore entities are not USUALLY to avoid US taxes. But exist to simplify dealing with doing business in a particular region (which usually have protectionist/nationalist tax codes or tariffs or import-export regulations).
If anything they are avoiding foreign taxes by not transacting as a US entity in these countries.
>>71442019
kek saved
>>71440982
>That won't help the middle class. They should be paying next to nothing.
Ok, this retarded, and it's worth answering.
You are either a stupid Berniefag, or just trolling.
>>71441710
>into American finance is if it makes economic sense to the owners of that cash to do so.
Exactly.
>>71441490
>paying 30% of a $30,000 is far worse than paying 30% on a $30 million
Understand this, right now the 30million guy is paying NOTHING, cuz he has jews and tools to hide it in tax deductible stuff.
If you flat tax with no deductions, then he pays cuz he has no choice.
You deduct money at source and it's gone.
flat tax is just a subsidy for the rich
they already steal enough from me
>>71439156
Bracketing is math for retards.
>>71442019
>not posting the version with Ayn Rand and Albert Speer
>>71441180
I love the way you leftwing idiots argue.
>"X happened because of Y!"
>"I disagree that X had anything to do with it."
>"THEN YOU DENY THAT Y HAPPENED!? I DONT EVEN."
>>71439156
>completely cut off all welfare
>lower taxes by 40%
It's the only way to get back to normalcy. Retards have been rampantly breeding since the 60's and the workers just can't handle that burden any more.
>>71442132
>a stupid Berniefag
that's how the system was originally designed to work under Wilson
>30million guy is paying NOTHING
Except that's bullshit. He pays some now, but under the flat tax he will be paying far less.
>>71441980
>that's why you don't punish people for making less.
And you don't in a flat tax system.
>>71441577
well i mean personally i don't consider doctors obscenely wealthy either. taxing them at 30-40% would make a pretty drastic change in their lives. for how much progressive taxation dicks over everyone else, you could be getting a lot more out of people who would see very little change in their surroundings at that percentage
>>71441980
>Start punishing the corporations here until they play ball.
"Oh hey remember how you've been all global world with no borders? Well guess what? We're going elsewhere now. Bye."
>>71441194
>where the money makes little to no impact on their lifestyle
It's always going to make an impact.
if you increase taxes on an individual making $250k, they might have to downgrade their vacation in Turks & Caicos to a vacation in the Bahamas.
If you heavily tax the very very rich, they might have to downgrade to chartered private planes instead of owning and maintaining a private plane & crew
>>71442359
most bluepilled shit i've ever read
>>71441160
The extreme rich do not pay income taxes. Wealth is different from income. The tax burden falls on the high income but lower wealth class: entrepreneurs and dudes with high sales commissions. $200k-$1m annual income, a good nut but not enough to be considered wealthy comparatively.
>>71440023
>WW2 didnt have anything to do with that.
Piss off retard
Life necessities shouldn't be taxed at all.
Luxuries should be taxed the same for everyone.
You can't argue with that.
>>71442359
But you're not punishing people for making more! That's like totally like bad and all like I don't even!
It's called sales tax senpai
>>71440722
>why does every road in my have pot holes if my taxes supposedly go to maintain them?
because your taxes could more easily buy votes elsewhere, why would a liberal politician fix roads? niggers don't care and you won't vote for them anyway, much better spent on mo money fo dem programs
I love the flat tax, progressive taxation is slavery of the productive to an extreme degree, my parents are going to have to pay personal taxes of over $250000 this year and we aren't even ""muh rich""
>wow healthcare is so free, it only cost me 100000 to get a check up and jamal got one for free
oh and for all the bernouts shitting this place up, THE INCOME TAX DSEN'T FUCK OVER THE VERY RICH, ONLY HARDWORKING NORMAL PEOPLE TRYING TO LEAVE THE MIDDLE CLASS, this is what you dumb fucking faggots don't get, the jewish investor class gets fucked just as much as now (not at all) with a flat tax, the people who really see a massive reduction are high wage earners, think doctors, engineers, lawyers, freelance guys, etc.
>>71442280
So you're denying the Marshall Plan existed?
Because right here it says that the US put $130 billion into Europe and canceled all of Germany's debts and Europe recovered,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
I guess according to Austrian "geniuses" it was all a coincidence.
>>71442359
Except that' exactly what you do because having the same rate for a lower income in punitive.
>>71442411
good luck
>>71442463
see
>>71440499
>>71442409
So you'd tax a very tiny percentage of the population and somehow come up with billions more a year in taxes?
>>71439156
>There are people here who support taxes
>>71439156
50% tax for everyone, that would be straight.
>>71442470
flat tax is punishing people for making less
10% of a lower income is more punitive that 10% of a higher income.
>>71441314
You knlw that those are multinationals. Most of their revenue doesnt come from the US
>>71442452
The "extreme rich" pay other taxes, dingus. You really think the IRS is not going to find some way to take someone's money from them? You must be delusional.
>>71439156
Flat tax of say 10% takes the same portion from everyone actual equality if you have a problem with that then you are actively discriminating against people based on your own prejudice.
>liberal logic enters infinite loop
>>71442553
Thank you for proving my point jackass.
>"So you DO deny that Y happened by denying that X played a role in it!"
Dumbass.
>good luck
Oh, are you going to say they can't leave? Uh oh. Here comes the totalitarianism.
>>71442712
such as?
>>71442617
10% is lower than anybody is taxed in this country, except those who are not taxed at all.
>>71442561
not really backed up by stats or anything. i was just saying that morally i have no problem taking more from people that wouldn't see the impact at that level of wealth
>>71442701
>According to a recent study on the use of tax havens in 2014, the 500 largest American companies hold more than $2.1 trillion in accumulated profits overseas to avoid U.S. taxes.
https://www.statista.com/chart/3877/offshore-holdings-of-tech-companies/
They do it specifically to avoid US taxes
>>71442782
>he would rather be raped by globalist jewish corporations than have a good country where the wealthy pay for public goods and services
this is why conservatism fails.
>>71442701
Exactly.
If you pretend a multinational corporation is a hand, each finger (foreign sub-entities) isn't stealing blood from the thumb (aka the US sub-entity). They are all part of the same hand.
>>71442831
Property tax.
Sales tax.
Capital gains tax.
>>71442893
that's just an example
I'll just say x% is more punitive at a lower income than at a higher income.
>>71442452
End social security asap.
>>71439156
Progressive taxes are designed full of loopholes that allow there rich to pay way below their bracket. Keeping it so simple that that wouldn't be possible would be preferable
I prefer a flat tax to the current system. As is the fat cats pay less percentage wise than I do and billion dollar corporations that have record breaking profit years like Exxon/Mobile payed no taxes plus received an over 100 million dollar "refund" a few years ago.
The current system with it's hundreds of loopholes that only the rich or very poor qualify for is much worse than a flat tax. Let me get my tax forms done in 5 minutes and let the fuckers at the top pay more than they do now.
>>71442712
>You really think the IRS is not going to find some way to take someone's money from them?
o i am laffin
>>71442896
>morally
Yeah. How about when you talk about morals, you don't go taking people's money for your own feelgood bullshit programs? Or how about you take the same percentage from everyone else. Fair is fair, right?
>>71442976
Are small businesses exempt from those?
>>71442978
All taxes are punitive. Progressive tax is punitive.
>>71440023
there were 3 recessions during the 50s.
the growth and "good times" didn't start really until the 60s when taxes and regulations started getting slashed, under Kennedy.
all thanks to europe and Japan blowing them selves up. getting them selves deeply into debt with the USA to buy war supplies or to rebuild.
>>71442976
no different from what the rest of americans have to pay.
and you are an obvious dumb fuck because capital gains tax doesn't affect the rich. it's back to wealth vs income.
>>71443113
Payroll tax.
Corporate tax.
>>71443051
But then H&R block and chartered accountants would go out of business.
Why do you hate cabitalism?
Conservashits love giving welfare to le rich
>>71442148
inside the mind of a liberal:
>someone not stealing your things = subsidy
>having a job and making money = stealing from a poor person
fascinating
>>71442893
Yes but it's a simple number for the use of an example I am not deeply studied in tax law so I use examples the same way others would. Unless you were the kind of person that thinks story problems are facts and buys 175 watermelons at 4.25 a piece.
>>71442553
Germany was destroyed and Britain was dying economically with multiple recessions. The US was basically 50% of the Earths economy at that period
>>71443074
>military
>feelgood bullshit program
i feel like maybe you think you're talking to a different type of person
>>71439156
>stein
saged
>>71442553
Equality of opportunity, my friend. Go out and get a higher income if you're not satisfied with what you have. Regardless of whether you make much or little, the state should take the same share of the pie from you.
>>71442579
Without taxes you don't have a functional state. The system should be optimised to keep the taxes as low as possible, but abolishing them is simply not doable. And this is the reason I'm a classical liberal and not the more extreme libertarian.
>>71443125
I said it's *more* punitive on the lower income
>>71443131
yet wages were higher, debt was lower, and the GDP was skyrocketing.
>>71443206
except
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirtschaftswunder
>>71443171
Don't call someone dumb when you type like that, sweetie pie.
Besides, the question was what taxes those evil richers supposedly pay since they apparently don't pay income tax.
Dumbdumb is you, Dumbdumb.
I'd tell you to pay better attention, but I'm sure we both know how impossible that would be for you.
Flat tax is only fair way, no one deserves to be punished on a sliding scale.
Taxation is theft, you have no right to your neighbors possession.
>>71443204
10-17% is the usual rate proposed by flat tax advocates. Russia currently stands at 13%.
>>71443201
>inside the mind of a liberal
you must have me confused with your strawman
reassess your argument
>>71443255
there is no such thing as equality of opportunity unless you think everyone is born into the same amount of wealth, land, and resources.
And even if that were the case it wouldn't justify being more punitive to lower income earners.
>>71443297
Ohh. I see. You don't mind punitive, you just have a favorite group that you like to punish especially hard.
Yeah. Mmm... you give it to them, yeah... You give it to them hard~
>>71443409
Yeah. I mean unless you're fucking rich as shit you'll forever be a frycook.
>>71443297
In the graph it shows that it took Germany until the 70s to return to their pre war economy status. And in the 50s the UK was a total mess.
>>71439156
I think its ridiculous for rich people to not pay a higher percentage than me! How's the government gonna increase their aid to Israel or build more bombs, or give more miney to old retired people, or give more welfare to unemployed people who dont pay taxes, if the rich dont chip in!
They must pay their fare share like all the unemployed Bernie Sanders supporters haven't been doing since they started their first semester of college last fall!
Flat rate income tax has allowed Estonia to grow and thrive economically while its neighbors tax and spend themselves into oblivion.
Look it up chucklefuck
>>71443469
tax evaders should be punished, yes
If you had loyalty to America instead of international globalist jewish billioanires you'd feel the same.
>>71442712
I do really think the IRS cannot touch them. A billionaire is only held to the 15% capital gains tax. If their wealth is tied up in a business they own, there are several ways to pay minimal corporate taxes (easiest way being to move the company HQ to a low tax country). There are also several property plays used by the wealthy to avoid paying any taxes whatsover. This list goes on.
In the meantime it's the young dudes with little wealth earning $200k/yr who are shelling out 42% in total income taxes. This is why dudes in this bracket, including myself like the idea of a negative income tax variation to the flat tax.
>>71443556
per capita isn't the same as industrial output
>>71443548
I never implied that
I don't even believe in an income tax for the lower or middle incomes.
>>71443556
>total mess
>>71439156
Why should successful people be penalized for being successful?
>>71443340
lmao lets not try and draw attention to the fact you were completely wrong about capital gains and the fact that there's an unequal burden on the majority.
instead ill just call you names, yeah, that's a great idea!
>>71443574
all the Baltic States are dying due to emigration and austerity caused by the EUs retarded economic policies.
you'd have to be literally retarded if you thought any of them had good economies
http://www.bloomberg.com/ss/10/08/0813_fastest_shrinking_countries/4.htm
>>71443727
You wouldn't get nearly enough money if you only tax the rich.
>>71443771
Because muh feels
>>71443900
something like 50% of people already don't pay an income tax.
plus, the panama papers should tell you there's plenty of money going un taxed.
>>71443900
you objectively would
>>71443574
>while its neighbors tax and spend themselves into oblivion.
All of it's neighbours have flat taxes......
>>71444029
in fact you wouldn't even have to tax "the rich" just the top 1% and of them it would mostly be the top .1%
>>71439156
Flat tax only means that the ones already established will pay nothing but a symbolic value, while the ones below will be paying a significative part in comparison to their income. Also, competition from newly arrived entrepreneurs come from below not from the top, so a scaled system actually results in a better market society.
But no, on /pol/ everyone is full blown NatSoc/Communist/anarcho-capitalist because its so cool to be edgy, so all moderate voices are talking to the walls.
>>71439156
Those with more money can earn exponentially more money with a larger sum of money. For example, it is a lot easier to make 100K with 10 Million dollars, than it is for a person with 100k to make another 100k. Those who are rich benefit from society more than those who are poor and therefore should exponentially pay more. IE (5% of income -> 15% of income)
However the progressive system used today is arguably to unfair to those in higher brackets. 60% of income in Cucknada is unreasonably high, and in general we pay way to much tax.
>>71444035
That doesn't prove anything. Taxing only the wealthy is still not enough.
>>71439156
Flat taxes don't punish success, but encourage it. What the fuck is wrong with real equality? Why does Jamal only have to pay 12% when I have to pay 28%? Just because I did things right doesn't mean I should be subjected to higher rates.
>>71443595
Mmm... yeah~ Punish those rich people hard. Tax evasion? Is that what you're going to call it? Oh baby, that sounds so hot!
>>71443651
There's more taxes than capital gains and income, baby.
>>71443727
No you just implied that there's a strict prerequisite to success that nobody without these things will ever be successful.
>>71443845
Oh yeah, I was so wrong but you forgot to prove me wrong with facts.
You naughty lefties are making me so hot right now.
>>71444157
yes it is enough
you clearly have no idea about the wealth divide in the US
>>71444035
Oh yeah, let's re-tax all that wealth that was already taxed.
Oh yeah so good. More~!
>>71444029
It's still not enough for the current level of spending unless you want to slap on a 95% tax rate on the rich or something, in which case people would just move somewhere else.
>>71442553
the effect of the Marshall plan is overrated.
Germany recovered because of the superior genetics of the white race
>>71444109
Oh yeah, baby, yeah. Now let's take the annual incomes of all the "One Percent" across the nation. All of them. Let's add it up and take 50% of it and see what we get~
>>71444216
They have a monopoly, and the rich when they have a monopoly will sit on the wealth if it's not taxed away into the public domain to be spent on useful public goods and services like infrastructure.
>>71439156
>"progressive" tax
>WHAAAA RICH GET LOPPHOLES!
>flax tax
>WHAAAA RICH PAY THE SAME RATE!
>>71444492
Oh yeah, oh man. Those people oh. How naughty of them not giving away their money. Oh you should spank them so hard.
>>71443727
Popullation remained the same and the Germans manufacturing sector share in the GDP has been fallen until 2010.
>>71443882
Relative to its shitty neighbors and the spend happy Scandinavian shitholes, Estonia is doing quite well. The Center Party keeps trying to fuck shit up, but hasn't been successful so far. And every high-powered economy took at hit in 2009. That's what a financial crisis does you Mong
>>71444109
Extremes get more extreme the further out you go why not only tax the single richest person then or the 0.00001% why should the rich be punished if there's still richer people above them?
>>71439645
Hello Mr.Sanders, isn't it close to your bedtime?
>>71444216
holy shit you're fucking thick. this is the first hit on google i found.
http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/04/news/economy/buffett-secretary-taxes/
>>71443882
Dumb argument is dumb. Estonia has little to no inmigration that is why the popullation forecast is like that. Estonian was the first economy to recover from the recession in Europe. While Keynesian Spain and Greece are still shrinking
>>71444533
the solution would be to eliminate all loopholes
>>71444615
>Popullation remained the same
there was a huge population boom in the 50s
>>71444659
tens of thousands of people have emigrated just to escape Estonia
>>71444662
>why should the rich be punished
The alternative is punishing lower income brackets
>>71444703
This is how the original income tax system was designed
>>71444035
>Source:Washington center for equitable growth
Seems legit.
>>71441194
Why would someone shoot a man before sliding him off of a building?
>>71444778
tl;dr the super rich pay less of a % in taxes through capital gains than the people who are in a "lower" tax bracket.
>>71439156
Abolish all income tax. Flat tax on domestic corporations of 30%. Flat tax on all multinational corporations of 50%.
>>71443385
ok please explain to me like i'm 10, how is the flat tax a "subsidy" for the rich?
>>71444240
>>Motherjones
>>71444778
Buffet's a bullshit liar and CNN is obvious propaganda. What he actually pays dwarfs all of his employees.
>"B-b-b-buh muh percentage!"
You're not even on the same argument anymore. That has nothing to do with capital gains taxes.
Poor baby. I feel for you, being so slow and all.
>>71444862
>Estonia has little to no inmigration
and huge emigration rates which is partly why the country is dying. The other reason is that high prices make life unaffordable.
>Keynesian Spain and Greece
They don't even have a central bank so they have no Keynesian policy
>>71444904
do you have any real objections?
>>71444981
>attacking the source not the arguement
>>71445085
>uses Mother Jones as a source
I didn't know we were using propaganda here.
Should we all hit up Fox Business in retort?
>>71445050
>What he actually pays dwarfs all of his employees.
But it's nothing compared to his actual wealth. We should go back to taxing the top income rate at 90% like we did from the 40s-60s
Slapping a 90% tax rate and actually enforcing it, unlike during the 50's, is a sure way to have everyone making above the 1% threshold, 450K about, move out of the country.
>>71440722
Because you live in a society, retard. When you go live in your libertarian fantasy land, start it from scratch, reimburse the government for public education, sanitation, and defense, then you can cry about taxation.
>>71444876
I mean pre war. Nazi Germany had 70 million inhabitants while Germany in the 70's had 75 million inhabitants. It took until the 70s to recover to its pre war economic shape
>>71444876
>Asking them to provide proportional funds is punishment.
>Proposing that 90 to 99.9% of the population (as by the post I first commented to) to not pay taxes but collect on tax benefits is a solution?
>>71445085
>do you have any real objections?
Sure, when you have real sources.
>>71445191
So what? He paid taxes on that wealth as he earned it.
If you have a savings account, then should that be taxed?
>"No! Because it'll affect me too much! It wont affect him, though... please don't take from me!"
Too bad!
>>71445050
the argument was burden of tax. the burden is greater for people in a "lower" tax bracket.
sit the fuck down kid.
It works really well here and it's so simple. I did my taxes in under a minute online.
>>71445329
It's not proportional to standard of living
>>71445318
that's hardly the same as being "devastated"
>>71445340
it's in the pic
http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21631129-it-001-who-are-really-getting-ahead-america-forget-1
>>71445382
at a low rate
>>71445085
The BCE is putting interest rates extremelly low and introducing thousands of Euros into the economy without any real effect. The deficit of Spain is around 5% of the GDP.
>>71445191
Buffet represents the extremes. Most investors are nowhere near as successful. Any tax that makes his income "average" would cripple the average investor.
>>71441980
>Middle to lower class people shouldn't be taxed
Then you better not vote for a Democrat ever again much less bernie sanders.
>>71445570
all that money goes into stocks and bonds not into the real economy
>>71445583
did I say to tax the average investor at the same rate?
>>71445632
I support Trump
>>71445527
Well in the 50s it was devasted. With a popullation smaller then 10 years ago and a destroyed manufacturing sector. If you need 25 years to recover from a war,your country is devasted
>>71442452
>science is 1%
>Social Security is 33%
>>71444968
Its not. It will just make life harder for newcomers to get into the game.
>explain to me like i'm 10
You want to get in the oil business and Rockefeller is already established at his peak. A flat tax system is in place so he has more money to spare and keep his monopoly. You try to undercut him but he has far more money than you, so he will do the same in your region, even if it harms him financially until you give up.
Though shit... all the oil belongs to him. Im not saying the flat tax alone will give him the advantage, but it shurelly wont work in your favor.
>>71442019
>Keynesianism
>Basically the same economic school that Hoover and Roosevelt used to change '29 crisis into Great Depresion
>"Golden"
kek
>>71445392
>kid
And then you lost the argument forever.
>>71445527
So? How much do you really think you were going to get? Did you think it would have been enough to cover the deficit? Do you really think that the richest people in the country, if you taxed all their wealth, that it would be enough to make a drop in the deficit? Hell, Trump, for example, is only worth 10 billion. Budget deficit is 1 trillion.
>>71445527
It's written by commies. Literal communist.
>>71445729
Expending has grown. Spain expends more money know than during the real state buble. Have you seen how many train high speed railroads have the Spanish goverment created in the last couple if years? Do you have any clue about economic plans like the B plan,that was basically just expending money on infraestracture?
>>71445729
>did I say to tax the average investor at the same rate?
No, you just want to throw more taxes on individuals like it's going to make a difference.
>>71439156
The panama papers sure are proving the efficacy of a progressive tax system. the problem with an income tax is you have to have a bureaucracy that determines what 'income' actually is. That bureaucracy becomes victim to regulatory capture and special pleading. Those with the most to loose have the most to gain by corrupting the process that would hold them accountable and since the minutiae of tax accounting is so beyond the grasp of common citizens it will forever be relegated to the concern of special interests.
This is actually probably the biggest issue of our time as it bleeds into everything. Corporate loopholes are funneling capital out of the country (when it should be more economical to reinvest it domestically). Tax breaks are sold to the public as helping the poor farmer or entrepreneur, yet overwhelmingly benefit mega-corporations. The super rich individuals have thousands of ways to basically have no tax liability. And every level of business push to lower property taxes without regard to sustaining the communities they are a part of.
Thus the lions share of the tax burden is bore by those least able to afford it. The middle class is disappearing because of it. The criminal justice system has been turned into a revenue generation arm of the government, using petty fines to extract as much money from the poor as possible to make up for budget shortfalls that benefit businesses that don't pay back into local government. The bureaucracy is so deranged that the inability to pay for these fines then leads to imprisonment, an exceedingly costly enterprise.
A proper society would push tax burdens up the social ladder, so that the heaviest tax is placed on those who will miss the money the least. Fairness isn't charging a poor man and a rich man the same thing, as that money has much greater relative value to the poor. Rather fairness is to take from each man such that it in no way meaningfully impacts his life or the fulfillment of his needs.
>>71439156
With UBI of course, it's a god tier system. Nobody is foolish enough to advocate for a flat tax without UBI
>>71445741
Except it had already recovered in the 50s
>>71445800
Keynes didn't come out with the general theory until 1937.
Hitler was much closer to Keynes than anyone and saved Germany's economy.
>>71445963
Spain has no central bank and therefore no control over it's monetary policy. It can't even monetize its debt.
>>71446001
it would take the debt burden of low/middle income earners if the taxes on the rich were raised higher.
>>71440023
>yeah because the 1950s were such an economic wasteland right?
>rest of world is literally a wasteland or barely returning to near normal after WWII
>USA is the sole industrialized nation ready to rock and roll at any scale
>omg we did well because we taxed the rich
It's hard to lose when you're the only one playing until the 1970's.
>>71446058
/thread
Tax rates aren't an issue. Tax codes are.
I made 20k last year as a part time worker/student with some inherited assets.
I spent tens of hours doing my taxes. That is insanely complicated. I should have to report my wages, my investment income and my tuition expenditures/other deductible expenditures, plug them in on one page, look up my tax rate, then pay the amount due.
Instead I have 5 or 6 different forms that get one or two lines filled, and spend hours chasing instructions through seven different documents.
And I have it super easy. Most small-business people have to shell out tons of cash to pay tax accountants, which expose them to liability if the accountants mess up or plain embezzle their shit.
The criminally insane US tax code causes needs to be hacked to pieces and left in a dumpster, with heavy fines for the IRS bureaucrats responsible for coming up with the bullshit.
Most accountants are redundant useless and non-productive, and so are the lawyers that accompany them.
These threads are interesting, but they seem meaningless considering all the other problems, like the huge debt that politicians are never gonna stop inflating until you go into negative interest rates and the bubble that shouldn't even have formed is so big nobody could even imagine it, and then it pops.
/pol/ really sucks rich dick this hard. Holy shit.
>>71446058
this.
>>71446058
It's already pushed up the ladder, dingus. Yet everything you say that shouldn't happen is happening because it's pushed up the ladder. But that's alright. Who cares if it's all crashing and burning around us, and all the evils of the progressive tax system are at fault. So long as you get to sit high and pretty on your moral pedestal for supporting what's "fair."
>>71446327
/pol/ believes in property rights over mob "justice"
>>71446171
It hadnt recovered in 50's. I post you a pic. The popullation was lower and the GDP per capita was also lower.
>>71446171
The EU is doing it anyways. They are the biggest owners of Spain's debt,and are keeping low interest rates
>>71446171
>debt burden
All well and good. But hey look at that, your government still has 1Trillion in budget shortfall every year. Better squeeze more blood from that stone.
no income tax, only tariffs
we 1890 now
Things like flat taxes alredy exist in most economies. VATs are basically a flat tax,and they are probably the highest source of income in most european economies.
>>71439156
>supporting any tax system
>>71446620
Shh.
That's not "moral" enough. People with more need to have a higher burden because they're a bunch of filthy richers.
>>71446429
how do people even come to believe such drivel? you've not once supported a single claim you make.
>>71446429
>s-s-stop taxing rich ppl or dey fuck us :'(
>>71446926
They do fuck you if they leave. Tax them at 90%, sure, but what happens when they just decide to move somewhere else?
>>71446926
France recently tried it. Why don't you google it and see how that turned out?
>>71446429
It's being pushed up the ladder in the same way that one climbs a greased rope. What our system does in name, and what it does in effect are widely divergent. The super rich who are honest about this system see it just as plainly. Both Warren Buffet and Bill Gates have commented that their personal tax liability is below 15%, because so much of it is 'capital gains' or filtered through loopholes.
If we had an actual progressive tax system, this wouldn't be the case. I was merely outlining why a progressive *income* tax, is doomed to fail. General disinterest from the public plus the huge gains to be made by special interests are a recipe for disaster.
That doesn't mean other forms of progressive taxation wouldn't be successful. I personally support a progressive sales tax. I know people are going to get in the weeds about sales tax hurting the poor, but lets be honest all a sales or income tax does is turn corporations into revenue collectors for the government. Is there any effective difference in taking the money from the front end, in sales, vs. taking it from the back end, in income? Sales are much harder to lie about and obfuscate from the tax man, which is why I prefer a sales tax system.
>>71446620
VAT's are not a flat tax, the number of steps in which tax is paid is completely hidden from the consumer and tax payer. They are however a great way to hyper inflate taxes without honestly engaging the public about where the money is coming from.
>>71447211
Seize their wealth and tax them for leaving.
Like Britain did. That worked out swimmingly.
>>71439506
The 16th amendment is in regard to distributing not collecting.
>>71439156
Flat tax is true equality.
>>71439156
You're not entitled to free shit just because you spent daddy's money on a degree that involves drawing with crayons about your feelings. I make more money than you because you're a lazy cunt, not because I'm somehow oppressing you.
>>71446817
>More than 1/3 of most giverments income comes through a flat tax,as they are way more efficient
>Berntards put Denmark as an example
>Most of the income from Denmark comes through flat taxes
Cant fabricate this shit
>>71446171
Read about how Hoover and Roosevelt act during the crisis.For example "The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Great Depression and the New Deal" by Robert P. Murphy. Then read Keynes.
Also, Hitler's Germany was as saved as USRR.
For anyone advocating a heavier progressive tax, you are a filthy Marxist pinko scumbag full of worthless envy. A heavy progressive tax is another of the main planks of communism.
>>71447474
What tax is as "unfair" and flat as a VAT? A beggar and Bill gates pay the same taxes for the same product. A flat income tax would be ironically less flat than a VAT.
>>71446926
>>71447342
Can confirm.
>http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/france-sees-millionaire-exodus-religious-tensions-rise-1552423
>http://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/04/01/10000-millionaires-flee-france/
10,000 millionaires have left France in 2015 alone. I'm not millionaire yet (probable in a few years, not that one million is that much money) and I've left France because of bureaucracy, fiscal reasons, and fleeing islam and sandniggers.
>lel, le rich people are our slave ccks and will not flee the country when we enter full socialist bureaucracy mode
Leftists were unironically saying that just three years ago.
>>71439156
> There are people on this board right now who support paying more taxes to an already wasteful and corrupt governement.
Kill yourselves.
>>71444968
others paying less while you pay more to cover their cost is the textbook definition of a subsidy
>>71446058
great post.
>>71446254
This senpai.
It doesn't matter what the rate is, when people with more money and better accountants will be able to find more loopholes to shift their tax burden to lower brackets
>>71439253
It wouldn't be as bad if the rates didn't get fucking outrageous.
>>71439348
>utopian claptrap
>>71439156
A usage tax would at least make illegals pay taxes outside of just state/county/city sales tax.
>>71439230
fpbp
>>71447953
Yes but Bill Gates spends far more money than the beggar. And if he doesn't spend it then it's his to invest and the money gets distributed as income to others, who in turn pay sales taxes.
The only way the money isn't filtered through a tax channel is if the rich simply sit on the wealth in some physical form or a low yield bank account. Since this isn't profitable, it's highly unlikely to occur often enough to warrant addressing. So long as there exists a vehicle to invest wealth and expect a larger return, there will be means to pushing money through sales tax channels.
I should also state that my plan for reform doesn't simply end with a sales tax. A form of basic income is looking as though it will become a necessity in most developed countries. Automation and other economic factors are simply leaving us with too little work for too many people. But as a corollary these developments also present us with super abundance. Reforming our current systems to support the effective distribution of this abundance (while also hopefully curtailing needless population growth) will be one of the more difficult challenges we face in the near future.
But to get back to the VAT question. There are no free lunches. The tax burden of the poor beggar has to be paid by someone. Fairness must be considered, but practicality also. I support a sales tax, not because it is "The Best of All Possible Worlds", but because it is 1) simple, 2) difficult to cheat, 3) does not come with institutional liabilities of income taxation, which I discussed above. It is the most reasonable compromise of fair and effective that I have seen.
>>71442411
>megacorps not selling to America
I want to see them try that
>>71446058
The Panama papers were leaked by American Cia and went through a leftwing journalist before anything came out. This post is trash and so is your opinion. There is nothing moral or fair about taking more away from who earn more.
Cuck. Go be a pinko in someone else's country. This shit has got to stop. Gdp and income inequality is not the most important issue. I hate Marxists more than they hate the rich.
>>71449488
>"Basic income"
Kek. Get fucked commie. Surely that won't be abused
>>71449570
Well that was almost an argument.
>>71446254
just cheat you dumbass.
I was a full time student working 20 hours a week.
Didn't claim i was a student on my taxes, so I got tons of low income tax credits, etc ec.
Just cleared like an extra 3 grand.
>>71449728
MFW I see republicans are this stupid.
>>71439156
I wouldn't support a flat tax in the modern capitalist system. But the idea behind it is fairness. Everyone contributes an equal portion of their income to the wellbeing of the people. Even under a flat tax, the rich are paying exponentially more in terms of real dollars [even if as a portion of their income they're paying the same as the middle and lower classes].
Realistically, you can't fund anything more than a minimal pure libertarian state under such taxes. So I couldn't support such a thing unless we turned around and nationalized every form of resource extraction since the resources of a country are the sovereign property of the nation, and they have the rights to 100% of the profits associated with selling them.
>>71440023
people were so thin then
>>71439156
flat tax is the fairest in theory, however in reality not everyone plays by the rules. This is why we need legislation, rule and law to keep everyone in check and try our best to get a level playing field.
However shit like benefits and gibs me dats for doing nothing are a step too far.
>>71447474
Capital gains are taxed. Property is taxed.
Besides; with the progressive tax rate system, it brings all the stuff you talked about with it. So either have the flat tax, or have the progressive tax riddled with corruption.
>>71450159
>the resources of a country are the sovereign property of the nation
LOL fuck off pinko.
>>71449547
Selling and keeping their money, and corporate offices in America and hiring Americans are two totally different things, you stupid fucking leaf.
>>71447956
>fleeing islam
>goes to london
>>71450159
Even under a flat tax, the burden on the rich is still higher due to other investments, and property that they owned that can, and will be taxed.
If anything the poor will have the smallest overall burden.
>>71450699
flat tax of 20%
Someone who makes 40k has 32k left to live on
Someone who makes 1million has has 800k left to live on.
>if anything the poor will have the smallest overall burden.
>>71446254
You know what makes me upset?
Any time that some reasonable motherfucker suggests to trim the fat and do things more efficiently, myriad people will scream and hoop and holler "BUT THINK OF ALL THE POOR ACCOUNTANTS JOBS THAT WILL BE REMOVED" "YOU ARE GOING TO COST THOUSANDS OF JOBS, WHAT ARE THEIR FAMILIES GOING TO DO?!?!"
I mean, Jesus FUCK. It doesn't matter that so many people are employed by an entirely artificial and parasitic entity to them. It produces nothing to further the nation, it does not promote the general welfare and happiness of the nation. It's simply cancer, but because some folks make a living off of it, we can't touch the shit?
goddamnit i bet the heebs did this
>>71439156
>edstein
>>71440816
>no tax on middle class
>implying that doesn't lead to middle class voting for radical redistribution out of envy of the wealthy
Kek
>>71440499
You should've used Japan as example. US capital contribution to Germany recovery is not remarkable. Since a lot of valuable assets were taken from Germany post war, such as patents.
>>71439156
Flat tax rates is probably the most neutral position you can take regarding taxes. It's when you start advocating that the rich should have to pay more than everyone else that you have to start justifying your bullshit morals and values.
Everyone just pay the fucking same. Don't punish success with higher taxes. And if it turns out you're not able to afford spending as much on social programs as you're currently spending, oh well. Gibsmedat programs are not a necessity because we don't really need the people who leech off of them in society. Corporations provide actual goods and services to the world, gibsmedat welfare whores just provide crime and degeneracy.
>>71451402
What's more fucked up is I've heard the same argument about the TSA. People completely skip over the inefficacy of them as a security apparatus and go right to "what about jobs". It's a GOVERNMENT JOB, it costs tax payers money.
But welfare is evil. The government could pay people to dig trenches and fill them in again and that would satisfy our perverse 'work ethic'.
>>71452423
It's absurd, man. Nobody's got a utilitarian point of view in any political camp. Nobody can view the nation as an entity or organism to work on- they all get so fucking caught up in the small-picture BUT WHAT ABOUT JOE SIXPACK SHIT
It ain't even an issue of idiotic liberals or myopic conservatives. I see damn near everyone do this. They treat a job, ANY JOB, no matter how useless or even detrimental as a sacred cow not to be touched under any circumstances.
Well shit lads, it would give me no instrinic pleasure to see accountants and TSA have their jobs taken, but you've got to do what you gotta do.
Just kidding, it would make me a bit happy to see TSA folks get the axe.
>>71439156
Because I think that this is unfair
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6HEH23W_bM
>stein
>>71451010
Yes because there's only income taxes.
>A fucking leaf.
Why are you all so god damn stupid? Learn to fucking read.
>>71447528
>Amendment XVI
>The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
>>71442452
top kek military 17%
science 1% what the fucking keks of keksd
all who want to end social security want more crime, violence etc. hahaha oh you are funny people
