>want to harvest organs from a dead person
>NO YOU CAN'T HE DIDN'T SPECIFY HE WANTED TO DONATE HIS BODY, YOU CAN'T VIOLATE HIS RIGHTS
>want to stop woman from aborting a fetus
>YES JAIL THAT MURDERER HER BODY DOESN'T BELONG TO HER, SOCIETY NEEDS THAT NIGGER BABY BORN
Why do you want corpses to have more rights than pregnant women?
>>71312768
Normal people are pro mandatory abortion of all shitskin children, so that's a strawman.
people are scum.
dead people were scum, but have stopped their foolish ways.
>>71312768
It's hard for liberals to understand when one's body ends and begins when they have melded with their chairs.
>>71312829
this. i'm only against the abortion of white babies
Because human life is sacred, you ignorant, soulless negroid.
>HER BODY
>>71312768
>Op makes one post and leaves
>doesn't even attempt to defend his postion
Remember to sage and ignore shill threads
>>71313251
>>Op makes one post and leaves
DEVILISH
>>71313251
waiting for an argument worth refuting
there's no point responding to troll posts
>>71313317
>MUH TROLLS
Bitch if you make a shit argument and thread expect shitty responses.
>>71313317
>How dare you call me out on my bullshit!
Refute >>71312839 and >>71312954
Your question begging epithet isn't a argument
>>71313392
When people say this is a human with a soul, what else can I call it but a troll?
>>71313317
>troll posts
Hey its the "if they disagree with they're a troll" meme
Lmao well memed friend.
>>71313441
Bitch you are arguing that a separate body, is actually a part of the woman's body.
Does that fucking mean that a tapeworm that gets inside your body is now the same as your fucking arm you twat?
>>71313441
Explain how it isn't
Especially since it is not part of the person's body but another body growing in another
Your personal feelings have no merit to the topic
You claim in your op that human organs are the same as a fetus
Last I checked you don't need a fetus to continue living
You started a troll thread and get mad when your own logic is used against you
>>71313499
I don't know if comparing a fetus to a parasite that it's highly desirable to kill immediately is helping your position.
Call me when it feels pain in 20 weeks or so. Until then? Yeah, it might as well be a tapeworm.
>>71312768
Organs are expensive, I don't want to give my money to niggers you commie.
>>71313631
You are question dodging and avoiding
Why can't you be held up to your own standards?
>>71313831
Why are you protecting tapeworms? Do you think tapeworms have rights?
>>71313631
I don't give a shit how bad the analogy is as long as it makes you understand 5th grade biology you idiot.
And fetuses do react to stuff around them since the 12-14th week.
And so far you made no fucking point besides "MUH BODY MUH CHOICE" when the premise of the argument is wrong as it's not your fucking body but I can also argue it's not your choice but first make a coherent point.
>>71313631
Who give a shit if it feels pain it's still a separate human life.
Inb4 why aren't you protecting tapeworms or some shit.
>>71313937
>>71313876
Holy fuck called it. I swear I typed that before this was posted wtf lmao.
>>71313876
>Another question dodge and avoidance
Show me where I even brought up tapeworms and how that ties into this conversation
>>71312768
I had to reread your second green text, it looks like you literally had to pull mental gymnastics to make that statement make sense. Allowing unrestricted abortion supports abortion purely as birth control. Not only do I find it immoral personally, realistically such a stance poses am actual risk to the women's general reproductive and mental health in the long term, and therefore has the potential to do the state harm, hence why it should be curtailed with laws
>>71314067
t. tapeworm lover
do you masturbate to the thought of parasites flooding your innards?
>>71313937
>It's still a separate human life
so what?
>>71314213
>so what
You tell me what. Your argument has been dismantled, come up with a new one or get the fuck out.
The only valid point for abortion is that you might have been aborted so this shitty thread wouldn't exist.
>>71314213
>I have no retort and I must comment
Not an argument
>t. tapeworm lover
do you masturbate to the thought of parasites flooding your innards?
>muh psychological projection
Still refusing to answer the question eh?
>>71314213
>so what?
wow epic edgyness dude. i'll meet back with you at r/atheism bruh.
sickkkkkkkk XXXDDDDD
>>71314195
>Not only do I find it immoral personally
Couldn't be more irrelevant
>Allowing unrestricted abortion supports abortion purely as birth control, realistically such a stance poses am actual risk to the women's general reproductive and mental health in the long term
A woman's reproductive and mental health are part of a discussion for the woman and her physician to have. Neither your irrelevant opinion on morality nor the government need to be a part of it.
>>71314619
>the government shouldn't be the judge of life or death. give that choice to the people.
>>71314619
>Talks about irrelevant opinions
>Has one
>refuses to be held up to his own standard
>>71314731
>Who should be the most important voice when it comes to forming a family? The mother? Hm no. The father? Nah. Ooh, I know, the government!
>>71314619
>A woman's reproductive and mental health
This might come as a surprise but pregnancy is normal and produces no harm in this day and age.
>the government doesn't need to be a part of it
A government is the ruling body created by a people, usually a nation. It supposedly follows the will of the people, if the people say no abortions and the government proceeds to make it illegal you can fug off.
>>71312768
Registered Donor here.
Childs body is not the womens body i draw the line once it is self aware.
>>71314913
>Who should decide whether a child molestor is punished? The government? The voice of law and reason? Nah. Ooh, I know, the molestor!
you're a fucking retard. let me ask you this question:
should we kill human lives?
>>71314914
That's fine. Right now in my country, the people say yes to abortions. Some people on /pol/ think the will of the people shouldn't rule on this issue.
>>71314938
That's a perfectly reasonable opinion. The only issue is where to draw the line for when self-awareness begins, legally speaking.
>Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-does-consciousness-arise/
I earlier suggested 20 weeks as the threshold, which is sooner than even the period they describe. I would be just fine with abortions past that line to be restricted to cases of rape, unviable births, and threats to the mother's life.
>>71315106
>Ooh, I know, the molestor!
It's funny you should phrase it like that. Did you know Republicans are pushing a bill that would let rapists sue their victims to stop them getting abortions?
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr23/text
So, it seems like the anti-abortion people are the ones granting molestors the decision-making power here.
>>71315485
People can disagree in your country and there is mounting pressure for abortion to become illegal. With one of the top candidates for the presidency thinking the same.
>>71315485
who said i'm republican?
answer the fucking question
>>71315485
If the will of the people says rape should be legal should that be fine too?
>>71315485
20 weeks is a little high but in line with the first trimester which is reasonable. I think they can determine defects by the second trimester scan as for rape they can have an abortion in the first trimester as well.
>>71312768
We should harvest blood and organs from life sentence prisoners.
>>71315789
Your loaded question is weak bait and I'm not obligated to answer it. Go cry to your debate club president if you don't like it.
>>71313631
This. Fetuses can't think, can't feel, especially in first trimester when abortion takes place. A tree is not even kidding more sentient. It's the same as removing a cancer node.
Fuck /pol/. Birth is a traumatic, body-changing, life-threatening experience, and you can't force someone to go through 9 months of hell because their condom broke.
And regarding morals? Do you really want a kid to be born to parents that don't even want it? If we're talking about potential human beans, why stop at abortion, why not force women to be pregnant 24/7. Think of all the potential beans that aren't being born because that viscious, selfish woman failed to get knocked up.
>>71315991
The whole point of governing bodies respecting the will of the people is that societies as a whole are extremely unlikely to come to an outrageous consensus like that.
It's a poor hypothetical.
I actually wonder how in the name of fuck is abortion still legal in many places when "pro choice" have the weakest arguments, the best you have is the "government should do stuff".
>>71312768
hahaha
oh come on anon, you can do better
the rights of a person are tied to their consciousness/soul/role in society, depending on what you believe.
so a child has all these things, but a dead person, a tumour, and a stone for instance do not
>>71312768
Stealing someones organs living or dead is wrong.
Killing an unborn child is wrong(unless the mother/both of them will die).
The "muh bodi" argument is retarded, don't get pregnant if you don't want the baby.
In the case of rape, give the rapist the death penalty or it should be illegal too. Why end the child's life but only lock the rapist up for X years?
>>71316429
> Birth is a traumatic, body-changing, life-threatening experience
This ain't the fucking 15th century it's not traumatic and it's not life threatening.
> Do you really want a kid to be born to parents that don't even want it?
Have you ever heard of adoption or ophanages you retard.
Just because a skank doesn't want her kid doesn't mean society or someone else doesn't want it and it also doesn't mean she must raise it.
The whole abortion argument boils down to
>it's a life!
>it's not a life!
Repeat ad nauseum.
So rather than argue semantics over what constitutes a life, I only have one question for the pro-lifers; is it acceptable to have an abortion in the case of rape/incest, and if so, why?
>>71312768
It's not a right to murder, fuck off slut.
>>71316331
fucking fag isn't willing to answer a question because he has to keep his "Internet Arguments Won and lost" tally pure
go fuck yourself
sage
>>71316781
Murder is by definition an illegal killing.
If abortion is legal, it's not murder.
>>71312768
>corpses
you mean living people that the doctors allow to die because of how much money the organs are worth.
and you're naive as fuck if you think there aren't hospitals that let organ donors die.
>>71313441
You have no way to prove or disprovethat whatsoever. Your thread is shit OP. Its shit.
>>71312768
>her body
etc. etc.
>>71316835
"though shalt not kill"
>>71313937
if it doesn't feel pain doesn't have a neural system what's wrong with killing it?
also preventing someone from experiencing the disgusting thing that is life is obviously morally positive
>>71316745
>Rape
First the rape must be proven in court that it was rape, which takes fucking time. Or at the very least a police investigation finds it as such. Let's say it's still possible to get an abortion before the fetus is develop to a point where it has a fully developed nervous system.
Then I would still say no, personally as the child can just be placed in an orphanage and it would be still good for society. Though some people don't agree as the woman was forced to have it and it's not a consequence of her being promiscuous.
>Incest
Considering the damage it would suffer, leading to it being literally and clinically retarded I would say leave it to the discretion of the family. Key point family as the perpetrators should serve time for their crime and as criminals have no saying in it.
>>71316835
>ethicality depends purely of whether it's sanctioned by...
>"Nah. Ooh, I know, the government!"
?????
Most abortions are done by blacks anyways.
>MUH CHOICE
>>71316611
>it's not traumatic and it's not life threatening.
Bull fucking shit. That shit can rip your cunt all the way to your asshole. Let's do that to your dicky and see how traumatic you call it. Not only that but it royally fucks your skin and abdomen, causes saggy boobs, and even hemorrhoids and diabeetus. And that's just the common ones. Blood vessels in your eye can burst, your uterus can fall out (prolapse), you can get all manner of horrific infection directly to the cunt, you have a "super-period" after that lasts about two weeks of super heavy chunky blood. Think about a female athlete. Oh, I guess she has to give up her career. Think of females with jobs and careers. You think the boss is gonna like her taking a month or three off? Her career is fucked, she's financially fucked for life. Birthing is expensive. People get hit with bills over TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS just for delivery. Let alone any complications, which can push it over a HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS.
>adoption
How many kids are rotting in foster care for want of an adoptive family as we speak? Millions?
>skank
You realize every female over the age of 16 has regular sex, including your coworkers, professors, bosses, doctors, family members, policewomen, lawyers, nurses, librarians, and schoolteachers?
Nothing wrong with abortion.
If it doesn't have the means survive on its own, much less protect the nation, it doesn't deserve the rights of a normal citizen. That applies to fetuses (feti?), babies, people with disabilities and whatnot.
>>71314619
>that much fedora-tier bullshit
>>71316898
You're right, I don't.
I think that when the truth behind an issue is difficult/impossible to discover, you have two choices: Have the government restrict people, or don't.
I believe the latter is always the best choice in situations like that.
>>71317161
>>71316835
So you just had an argument that it's not the government's job to decide and now you say it's right cause it's legal.
Make up your god dam mind you faggot.
>>71312768
Abortion really depends on the situation. What if an underaged girl got pregnant via rape?
>>71312768
>Want to harvest stem cells from an embryo
>YOUR A MURDERER THATS A BABY
>Want an abortion
>LOL JUST A CLUMP OF CELLS. MY BODY MY CHOICE
Liberals, not even once.
>>71317184
>>71317107
Murder is not an moral term, it's a legal term. It has no meaning outside of law and government.
>>71317161
It's ok to just not respond if you don't have a good argument anon
>>71316893
>believing there are hospitals where the doctors and nurses are all down to let someone die for their sweet sweet organs
the thing that pisses me off most about millennials and people nowadays is how much they base their beliefs off speculated theories with no proof
>>71316835
>government decides what is and isn't ethical
>>71317239
What? Liberals are pro stem cell
Pro-life is Pro-Nigger
>>71317188
So the kid should be punished for the crimes of the father?
>>71317270
I just hate that whole
>le morality doesnt matter to me
Look, I love abortion personally, its useful for keeping nigger and spic populations in check.
But when people like OP acts like an edgy little retard its just absolutey cringeworthy.
>>71317150
>Bull fucking shit. That shit can rip your cunt all the way to your asshole. Let's do that to your dicky and see how traumatic you call it. Not only that but it royally fucks your skin and abdomen, causes saggy boobs, and even hemorrhoids and diabeetus. And that's just the common ones. Blood vessels in your eye can burst, your uterus can fall out (prolapse), you can get all manner of horrific infection directly to the cunt, you have a "super-period" after that lasts about two weeks of super heavy chunky blood. Think about a female athlete. Oh, I guess she has to give up her career. Think of females with jobs and careers. You think the boss is gonna like her taking a month or three off? Her career is fucked, she's financially fucked for life. Birthing is expensive. People get hit with bills over TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS just for delivery. Let alone any complications, which can push it over a HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS.
M8 I broke my leg, and lost part of my ass skin in multiple accidents, I know what pain is.
Birth is just an object passing through your body from where it's meant to go. And women easily bounce back from it.
Also she can put it up for adoption you little shit and moreover women shouldn't work either.
>It costs money
So does a lot of things you little shit, it's a consequence of her action also Americans over pay for their healthcare.
>How many kids are rotting in foster care for want of an adoptive family as we speak? Millions?
Those kids if failed to be adopted can just join the army or in the case of women some type of caretaker work.
Life doesn't fucking end at childhood you retard
>You realize every female over the age of 16 has regular sex, including your coworkers, professors, bosses, doctors, family members, policewomen, lawyers, nurses, ?
And a lot of people smoke and lot's more are shit drivers?
What numbers now excuse shit behavior?
Promiscuity is proven as harmful and people should deal with the consequences.
i know two white sluts that had abortions. one had 4 abortions, the other slut only had 1. both told me this without showing any guilt.
>>71317252
It is a fucking moral term you idiot.
It's one of the fucking arguments over which bible translation to use as some say
>Thou shall not murder
and some say
>Thou shall not kill
You bellend.
>>71317379
This guy knows.
>>71317384
>expecting a teenager below age 18 to carry a pregnancy healthily like a normal adult
The "kid" won't feel anything when aborted.
>>71317613
>>71317027
Go live in Saudi Arabia if you want religious scriptures to = law. Great place they have over there.
Remember to spay and neuter your niggers.
>>71317429
Morality has nothing to do with it, it's an unborn (meaning not yet alive) fetus. Even if it's a white fetus, it's not like it's the cream of the crop that's going to get aborted; it's usually some teenage white trash with poor decision making skills
>>71317091
So why is it ok in some cases but not others?
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
>>71317699
You are flip flopping so much I am beging to wonder if you are a troll.
First you say no government.
Then you say it's a law.
Then you say it's a law because murder is a legal term.
Then you say fuck you religious people.
What's fucking next?
>>71317766
Thats fine and thats your opinion, but others share different opinions. Like I said, I think abortion is disgusting, but a highly "necessary evil" if you will.
And your right about the whites who abort, if theyre getting an abortion, usually they are literal trash tier human beings.
>>71317890
The only reason I would say incest is because the birth defects are too great, and I would say it makes sense for any crippling birth defects if spoted and it's not too late.
But I can say the same about shooting a man.
>It's ok when in the army.
>It's ok when defending yourself.
>It's not ok if he called you a faggot.
>>71318039
>Thats fine and thats your opinion, but others share different opinions.
That's the most non-statement I've ever heard. Don't fucking reply to me if you don't have anything constructive to say you liberal faggot.
because women are too stupid for the responsibility of bodily autonomy
>>71312768
>Why do you want corpses to have more rights than pregnant women?
I'm pro-abortion. Set up free clinics in every city, suck them out for free, after the second abortion tubal ligation is given free of charge as well. Abortions from rape don't count.
>>71312931
Please let your pic be real!
>>71317930
Believe it or not, the world isn't black and white. It's possible to have stances that aren't extremes.
Just because I'm not "BRING DOWN THE GOVERNMENT ANARCHY FOR ALL" nor am I "I LOVE THE GOVERNMENT AND ALSO LICKING BOOTS" doesn't mean I'm flip-flopping. I think it's beneficial for the government to operate within a boundary and harmful for the government to step out of that boundary, and I outlined that boundary to you.
>>71317561
Mhm. The only people who say birthing an unwanted child isn't a big deal are truly those that will never need experience it.
What part of personal liberty do you not comprehend? You're just like liberals, want to ban everything that offends you. What next, banning floral bedlinen because it offends you? Personally, I'd rather legalize everything, even shit I don't agree with like drug use, than have any personal liberty of mine risk infringement from some cunt in power who one day happens to disagree with me. Maybe today they ban abortion, maybe tomorrow they mandate circumcision. After all anon, it's hardly a big deal, it barely hurts, baby boys bounce right back from it. :^)
That's what comes from giving government the power to decide what you can and cannot do with your body. Great when the monkey in charge at the moment agrees with your personal flavor of bullshit. Then you're gonna whine and bitch when that changes. Maybe they'll mandate race mixing. After all, "diversity is strength", you wouldn't want kids to be inbred right? Think of the chilluns.
>>71318162
>make a reasonable response
>durr fuck you
>owtheedge.jpg
Usually, when they harvest the organs from the dead, they leave a pretty big mess for us embalmers to fix. I'm fifty-fifty on organ donation. Helping someone is the goal, but you are just helping the next name on the list. I suggest however that in the process of deciding whether or not to donate, that you take the time to think about how you want your body to look after death to friends and family.
http://corilou.com/about-organ-donation/
>>71317239
The fuck?
>>71318375
>Mhm. The only people who say birthing an unwanted child isn't a big deal are truly those that will never need experience it.
ADOPTION IS A COMPLICATED CONCEPT FOR
>What part of personal liberty do you not comprehend? You're just like liberals, want to ban everything that offends you. What next, banning floral bedlinen because it offends you? Personally, I'd rather legalize everything, even shit I don't agree with like drug use, than have any personal liberty of mine risk infringement from some cunt in power who one day happens to disagree with me. Maybe today they ban abortion, maybe tomorrow they mandate circumcision. After all anon, it's hardly a big deal, it barely hurts, baby boys bounce right back from it. :^)
Degradation of society and moral consistency are hard concepts to grasp for people who don't have the balls to say no.
>
That's what comes from giving government the power to decide what you can and cannot do with your body. Great when the monkey in charge at the moment agrees with your personal flavor of bullshit. Then you're gonna whine and bitch when that changes. Maybe they'll mandate race mixing. After all, "diversity is strength", you wouldn't want kids to be inbred right? Think of the chilluns.
Government is an institution created by the people, if it no longer serve the people it is the enemy and must be eliminated. I already said this twice but repetition helps with frail minds.
Also the Government should protect it's society, from all forms of attack including degradation by tolerance.
>>71316835
>why should the government decide for a woman
>the government determines what murder is
>>71318636
>how you want your body to look after death
Viewing dead people is disgusting. I think it should be a private matter, and they should go directly in the ground as is natural, not be soaked in nasty chemicals and stuffed in makeup and frilly clothing like some grotesque circus act. It's a mockery.
A corpse is dead and thus worthy of respect.
A foetus is alive and deserves the right to life.
Nice non sequitur.
>>71318300
You have yet to have a coherent response on why you want abortion.
>>71318375
Why are you pretending like the baby doesn't have rights too? everything you just said applies to the unborn baby every bit as much as the mother.
>>71317613
mur·der
ˈmərdər/
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
Keyword unlawful. Nobody is saying that the government should determine what's right and wrong except for you lot, but murder has to be illegal by definition.
>>71317150
You're talking hypothetical exceptional cases. Most pregnancies go off pretty well these days.
Use protection, use plan b, get a first trimester abortion. Any other scenario should be for extenuating circumstances... Not because you're a meth addict who couldn't bother to make an appointment
>>71318954
murder
>the crime of deliberately killing a person
crime
>an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law; especially : a gross violation of law
>a grave offense especially against morality
Depends on your definition.
>>71317252
Women's rights is not a moral term, it's a legal term. There is no should women decide what to do with their bodies. Only what is legally defined for them.
You know you fucked up. You're not impressing anyone here by denying and trying to save face anonymously. I'm for first trimester abortion BTW, bit this is stupid. You goofed. Own it. Make note logical and consistent arguments best time
Because a fetus isn't a life you mouth breathing retarded
>>71319222
>Isn't a life
>a
>life
Huehue-Monkey can't speak English nor understand biology.
>>71317384
So the girl is responsible for the sins of the father?
>>71316835
>illegal killing
You have to hear how retarded that sounds.
>Government bad unless they say killing is okay in certain cases
>But everyone who looks to the govt for guidance is dumb except me.
>>71317699
All law is based on some form of moral philosophy. Religion and philosophy intersect in many places and an argument for morality doesn't necessarily mean someone is incoming religion
>>71312829
You'd be surprised how hard people on /pol/ are riding the Christcuck train.
>>71318300
You are flip flopping. You can't moral relativism to call for pro choice then reject moral relativism as it pertains to murder in order win an argument in the same breadth because you effectively nullify your own first stance in the process.
>>71318765
That all depends on how much and in which ways we think about our life after death. Many people simply do not want to think that their husband or wife or child is going to degrade to nothing eventually. Even us embalmers cannot change that, we just delay the process greatly.
The most interesting thing is the difference in attitudes between the US and Europe, and other countries like Korea on the proper treatment for the dead.
>>71318789
I think legal abortion does more good and less harm than illegal abortion.
People have terminated pregnancies for all of history, and it's not going to stop. Making it illegal will just push more women to unsafe back-alley abortions from uncertified quacks and "homeopathic" poisons. Making abortions safely available from actual physicians improves society's health.
In particular, it improves the health of the poor. The rich elite have no problem whatsoever securing any services they want, and the law won't stop them, it only stops the working-class women who don't have those resources available to them. I think a society is at its best when healthcare is guaranteed equally to people regardless of their wealth.
>>71319798
There's a difference between saying this stance provides the most benefit for society, and saying that stance is good because the other stance is evil and degenerate.
>>71320073
>People have terminated pregnancies for all of history, and it's not going to stop. Making it illegal will just push more women to unsafe back-alley abortions from uncertified quacks and "homeopathic" poisons. Making abortions safely available from actual physicians improves society's health.
People break the law when committing murder, just because the law doesn't always stop people from doing it is not an argument.
>
In particular, it improves the health of the poor. The rich elite have no problem whatsoever securing any services they want, and the law won't stop them, it only stops the working-class women who don't have those resources available to them. I think a society is at its best when healthcare is guaranteed equally to people regardless of their wealth.
First off, ADOPTION
Secondly Women shouldn't be working
Thirdly how does it improve anything?
And lastly socialist welfare has nothing to do with legalization of abortion.
>>71319222
Trips nigger, I want forced abortions for all niggers and white people will form babies in tube so thier wives dont get ruined
https://soundcloud.com/couchtruthing/emperor-trump
>>71312954
ok then, a fetus has its own body. lets just get that fucker out of there and see how he does when hes not compeltely dependant on someone else. im pretty sure i couldnt jsut hook myself up to someone if my kidneys were failing so that someone else could clean my blood
>>71312768
kek why do you want a dead person to have more rights than a baby
>>71320073
I didn't use the term degenerate.
Even value is a philosophical construct.
Does it benefit society to have legally sanctioned murder if say it's an unwanted but naturally born 3 month old child? Perhaps you feel that way. Earlier you made your case on women's rights as in legality which was inconsistent with your rebuttal on murder.
Now you argue from a utilitarian perspective. Pick your argument. If this is going to be your argument, then OK. Let's talk about it. You'll have to define benefit to society. I view it as maximizing effective freedom and happiness to the individual, murder doesn't benefit the individual in my view. Murder in my view should be very strictly sanctioned. In for first trimester abortion for whatever reason. I think we both agree on that so no need to be upset. I totally agree that abortion does a net benefit for society because too many unwanted and stuff addicted babies would be born to a use of damnation otherwise which would also be a drain on current living people. However, that bundle of cells has the potential and trajectory to become a person with the same rights if we're are too be consistent and IMO that should be when consciousness begins. I think we agree on that.
I just think the whole murder is a legal term thing was a cop out. I think you know that too
>>71313416
pretty easy to refute, if i cant hook someone up to myself to clean out my blood when my kidneys are failing then a fetus cant do that either
>>71320301
>ADOPTION
You're still forcing a woman to take 9 months away from her life to bring a baby to term and then part with it, which brings me to my rebuttal of your second point
>Women shouldn't be working
The US Constitution enshrines the pursuit of happiness to all its citizens. The government does not have the power to prescribe raising a baby to a woman who is happier pursuing a career.
>How does it improve anything?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2332264
>The World Health Organization estimates that almost half a million women in developing countries die in pregnancy and childbirth every year. Unsafe induced abortion is responsible for perhaps one-quarter of these deaths.
Less women dying is an improvement.
>Socialist welfare has nothing to do with legalization of abortion.
If a medical procedure is available to the rich and not the poor, than its unequal and perpetuating an unequal society.
>>71320734
You're right. I was just calling out the phrase "abortion is murder" as meaningless, I didn't mean for that post to become some kind of cornerstone of my argument and I shouldn't have wasted my time defending it.
>>71318636
>people shouldn't donate organs because they look bad for the funeral
wat?
>>71318679
>ADOPTION IS A COMPLICATED CONCEPT FOR
Adoption centers are completely full, and most are bredding grounds for criminals and drug addicts. You underestimate the impact it gives to a kid that does not grow up with a father and mother.
>Degradation of society and moral consistency are hard concepts to grasp for people who don't have the balls to say no.
Muh Fells!!!
>>71321056
>You're still forcing a woman to take 9 months away from her life to bring a baby to term and then part with it, which brings me to my rebuttal of your second point
Consequences of her actions and right to life.
>The US Constitution enshrines the pursuit of happiness to all its citizens. The government does not have the power to prescribe raising a baby to a woman who is happier pursuing a career.
Working women are more depressed and less happy than non working women, which has led to massive increase in women depression as women in the workforce have increased in percentage.
And again she is not forced to raise it.
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2332264
I didn't know the US was a developing country. And again people doing illegal stuff is not a valid reason for making it legal you fuckface.
>If a medical procedure is available to the rich and not the poor, than its unequal and perpetuating an unequal society.
It costs money you idiot, also you don't need to go to the hospital to give birth, midwives are much cheaper, just as safe and more comfortable.
>unequal society
There is nothing wrong with that you commie bastard.
>>71320628
polan right as usual
>>71321450
>
Adoption centers are completely full, and most are bredding grounds for criminals and drug addicts. You underestimate the impact it gives to a kid that does not grow up with a father and mother.
Even in worse case scenario's they can be useful. As the army needs cannon fodder.
>Muh Fells!!!
And "Muh body, muh chioce" is any different?
>>71319482
>You have to hear how retarded that sounds.
lol, the irony.
>>71320301
>ADOPTION
Adoption fucks a women mental health, they are literally abandoning their child. Also adoption centers are full already
>Secondly Women shouldn't be working
I kind of aggre with you. Traditional family was something kind of nice.
>Thirdly how does it improve anything?
Read >>71320073
>lastly socialist welfare has nothing to do with legalization of abortion.
Sure m8.
>>71321463
>Consequences of her actions
Not always her actions
Women can be raped
Condoms can break
Pills can fail
>right to life.
Let me slow you down there. Just as I said earlier about the pursuit of happiness, the US constitution guarantees the right to life to its citizens.
You can argue all day about whether or not an unborn baby is alive, has a soul, feels pain etc etc etc,
but an unborn baby is NOT a U.S. citizen. Citizenship is conferred at birth; there is no debate on that. As such, the Constitution does not protect fetuses or guarantee them the right to life.
>Working women are more depressed
Anyone in the workforce is more depressed, regardless of sex. Careers are stressful. If men can make the decision that a career will make them happy in the long term and choose to pursue despite the risk of stress and depression, than a woman can, too.
>And again people doing illegal stuff is not a valid reason for making it legal you fuckface.
But it IS legal. Roe v. Wade has not been overturned. I'm arguing for the status quo.
>There is nothing wrong with that you commie bastard.
>MUH RED SCARE
>>71321570
Learn to use meme arrows buddy
>As the army needs cannon fodder.
No they don't. Armies are advancing to professional elite soldiers. A few decades from now, armies will have 1/10th of the personal they have now.
>Even in worse case scenario's they can be useful.
Some of them will be, undoubtely. But most will be drug addicteds, mental unstable, criminals... And i can't really blame them, i could be the same if i didn't grow up with a father and mother.
>And "Muh body, muh chioce" is any different?
Yes it is. My body, my choice. It's simple to understand. Up until +-20 weeks it's just a lump of cells, can't think for itself, can't sustain for itsself... Just like a fucking plant. And i think a women should be able to abort if she wants.
Now the real problems are were is the father opinion and what is it worth for? Were do we draw th line?
>Dead body
>Living fetus
OP can not be that dumb. This is bait.
>>71321964
>Women can be raped
>Condoms can break
>Pills can fail
I argue against abortion even for those, but not everyone is like me.
>Let me slow you down there. Just as I said earlier about the pursuit of happiness, the US constitution guarantees the right to life to its citizens.
>but an unborn baby is NOT a U.S. citizen. Citizenship is conferred at birth; there is no debate on that. As such, the Constitution does not protect fetuses or guarantee them the right to life.
Then I can argue that the unfertilized eggs of a glorified sea gull are more protected than a fetus as it's illegal to destroy them even if they are on your propriety.
>Anyone in the workforce is more depressed, regardless of sex. Careers are stressful. If men can make the decision that a career will make them happy in the long term and choose to pursue despite the risk of stress and depression, than a woman can, too.
First of all men and women are not the same, and women are more depressed in the workforce as a whole.
>MUH RED SCARE
Shut up you commie faggot.
>tfw never register as an organ donor
>one day become somewhat interested in doing so when my altruistic side kicks in
>find out that I can discriminate on who my organs go to by race, gender, etc
Guess no organ donation for me. I don't want some nigger or fag having my organs.
>>71322291
can't* rather
>>71322142
>living fetuses
Just like tapeworms?
>>71322319
Nope. It is human. Duh.
>>71322414
>It is human
How do you define it?
>>71322262
>Then I can argue that the unfertilized eggs of a glorified sea gull are more protected than a fetus as it's illegal to destroy them even if they are on your propriety.
Well, yes, I suppose you can argue that. I don't know what point you're making, though.
>First of all men and women are not the same
We're talking about the Constitution, and it regards them as the same. The Preamble does not make exceptions for biology.
>>71322102
>No they don't. Armies are advancing to professional elite soldiers. A few decades from now, armies will have 1/10th of the personal they have now.
Conscription Based armies are superior to profesional ones
>Some of them will be, undoubtedly. But most will be drug addicted, mental unstable, criminals... And i can't really blame them, i could be the same if i didn't grow up with a father and mother.
We are now more or less arguing over chance than anything. As adoption rates depend on the nation and legislation as for example adoption here is hard but people want to adopt.
If he gets a decent enough education which can be provided by an orphanage then his life will not be shitty, problem is getting proper orphanages.
>Yes it is. My body, my choice. It's simple to understand. Up until +-20 weeks it's just a lump of cells, can't think for itself, can't sustain for itsself... Just like a fucking plant. And i think a women should be able to abort if she wants.
Except it's not your body. It's a body in your body
And not your choice either. As you only have a right to something if it's guaranteed.
>Now the real problems are were is the father opinion and what is it worth for? Were do we draw the line?
If the father can be proven as the father of the kid and he opposes it, then the pregnancy must be carried and he must care for the child after the pregnancy.
Why are we still talking about abortion in 2016
OH DAS RITE
HILLARY CLINTON IS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT
And abortion and the 'pay gap' (lol) are absolutely the only things women have to talk about.
>>71322452
Oh, I do not know, maybe that it was conceived by humans and developing genetically to be human? Seriously dude, what do you call being a human, and thing that breaths and walks on two legs?
>>71319653
No one on /pol/ is actually a Christian, it's just memes.
Seriously, Christians on 4chan?
>>71322652
Plenty of Catholics though.
>>71322491
>Well, yes, I suppose you can argue that. I don't know what point you're making, though.
That the right of propriety and even self determination is breached by the state to protect and unfertilized egg of a bird. Which means that it would be just as easy to do so for a human.
>We're talking about the Constitution, and it regards them as the same. The Preamble does not make exceptions for biology.
Sure.
>>71322599
We're still talking about abortion because right-wingers and their politicians are still attacking it, see https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr23/text like I posted above
If it didn't need to be defended, we'd shut up about it. But it does. Fuck Hillary by the way #FeeltheBern
>>71322700
For the dead person, it's a matter of dignity of the body and the wishes of the individual. If the individual does not actively make their wish known about their bodies, then it should fall to next of kin.
For abortion: I think abortion should be legal, so I'm not against that.
In regards to being an organ donor: It basically removes all rights from the family once a person dies. Had a family friend have an accident, coma, determined he would not recover, family agreed to pull the plug (and no one thinks quality of care was sacrificed because he was an organ donor). The moment his heart stopped, they were like vultures. They harvested everything, including large portions of skin. The family ended up having to have a closed casket funeral as a result.
>>71322714
That's a false analogy. Humans aren't endangered and preventing a few from being born isn't going to end the species.
>>71322652
Again, you'd be fucking surprised.
The Deus Vult thing made people unironically follow the catholic church because they want to be cool crusaders.
>>71322582
>Conscription Based armies are superior to profesional ones
Not for long. Automatization will hit the army too. But keep moving goalpost m8
>We are now more or less arguing over chance than anything.
Statistics, m8.
>If he gets a decent enough education which can be provided by an orphanage then his life will not be shitty,
Are you a orphan? Have you ever met one?
> It's a body in your body
It's a parasite. If it's a different body, then let the women shit it out and see if it can live
>If the father can be proven as the father of the kid and he opposes it, then the pregnancy must be carried and he must care for the child after the pregnancy.
It can't be that simple. And what if the abortion endangers the women? What if the father fucks off after the birth? If the mother doesn't want the child is she released of parental responsabilities?
>>71322892
>The family ended up having to have a closed casket funeral as a result.
It'd be kind of petty to say "Take his organs as he wished, so that you can help people in need. Oh, but keep him pretty."
>>71322791
>Feel deh bernh
>>71322911
Majority of Western Nations are facing death by population aging.
>>71323035
me in the middle
>>71323022
There were large portions of skin on his back, buttocks, etc. that would have been suitable and not visible in an open casket.
Taking visible skin on the top of the deceased made the grieving process much harder for a couple hundred people. Especially his wife and young children.
>>71322644
>what do you call being a human
I think it needs to think for itself firstly. It's body must need to support itself ( major genetic defects and sickness are exception)
>>71323076
Vast hyperbole. At worst, we'll face a labor shortage, which we might as well, considering how bad the labor glut is right now.
>>71322644
We can grow organs in petri dishes that meet those criteria.
>>71313416
>>71312839
>It's hard for liberals to understand when one's body ends and begins when they have melded with their chairs.
Where exactly is the cut-off point? Are women allowed to sever the stuff the is on their side off this point? Wouldn't this effectively kill the fetus?
>>71322979
>Not for long. Automatization will hit the army too. But keep moving goalpost m8
>Having robot soliders
Did Terminator teach you fucking nothing you commie bastard?
>Statistics, m8.
I agree but the question is: Is the risk worth it
>Are you a orphan? Have you ever met one?
I am not, I have met some, not all of them are criminal emotionally damaged idiots. Actually in Romania foster homes are preferred to orphanages.
>It's a parasite. If it's a different body, then let the women shit it out and see if it can live
If it's so bad for the women she literally has the ability to abosb it back like any mammal.
>It can't be that simple. And what if the abortion endangers the women?
>Woman can make more kids, woman can decide to abort it or not
>What if the father fucks off after the birth?
The same shit we do now
>If the mother doesn't want the child is she released of parental responsabilities?
Yes as it would be worse for the child and the father for her to be involved.
>>71323266
You're trying to exaggerate, but it's not hard to imagine women self-mutilating to terminate in a world where the medical procedure is illegal.
>>71323153
No, that does not make one human. At the phase of a human life only means it is a more developed human. If you really believe that, then you must believe anyone pre-toddler phase and anyone in a coma or hospitalized is not a human.
>>71323153
If the point is self sustainability then should we just kill the disabled?
>>71323257
So you agree. If it is made from a sperm and egg that fertilized then it is human. It does not matter where it is from, although unnatural. It is human and will continue to develop as a human.
>>71323517
Are you arguing that these homunculi should be given rights and protected by law?
>>71323153
>( major genetic defects and sickness are exception)
So you can adjust what you believe to be human to fit your narrative? It is or it is not human. No exceptions.
>>71323347
>Did Terminator teach you fucking nothing you commie bastard?
>Holliwood as a argument
nuff said
>Is the risk worth it
Check statistics for orphan kids for yourself mate
>Actually in Romania foster homes are preferred to orphanages.
Of course, but i am talking of those that never had a family to take them in
>If it's so bad for the women she literally has the ability to abosb it back like any mammal.
wat?
I don't even know why i am arguing with you for.
>>71323638
When refer to me where homunculi rights are a problem?
>>71323638
*Please
>>71312768
Here OP, watch this so you can stop being idiotic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMwkQVpy98A
>>71323384
> pre-toddler
Babies can think. Their bodies can sustain themselves. They fit perfectly the criteria i gave.
>anyone in a coma
If they don't have any chance to wake up, then it's perfectly reasonable to say it's not a person anymore. People turn off the machines sometimes. That would be murder if the comatose was a person
>>71323787
>nuff said
Robots can be hacked and can go haywire and if it's interconnected as it needs to be a virus or other defect will fuck everything royally
>wat?
Don't you know that most mammals can literally absorb their fetuses back in conditions of extreme stress or danger?
Of course this only happens during early pregnancy.
>>71323810
Well, the whole point of growing them in the first place is to provide artificial replacements and other forms of bioengineering, precisely the kind of futurist hyperproductivity that is gradually ushering us into post-scarcity. So if you were to say that they are citizens and have rights, you'd be shitting on the future of modern medicine, for one.
>>71323740
Of course there can be exceptions. Humans are very complicated. It doesn't have to be black or white.
>>71312768
An unborn child is not an organ.
Next.
>>71320612
so a baby is part of a woman body because he can't survive by its own? genius logic.
>>71323998
Yes. You define individual beings by the ability to sustain themselves. Fetus are more parasites then anything
>>71324330
A blind man can't sustain himself nor can someone with no arms or legs.
Should it be legal to kill them?
>>71324330
He's talking about children who have been born and are still incapable of sustaining themselves you ignorant fuck.
>Fetus are more parasites
Even more bullshit from an ignorant fuck such as yourself. Parasites are BY DEFINITION not of the host's species.
ITT: Based Romania BTFOs commies
>>71324330
>You define individual beings by the ability to sustain themselves
>Leftists never become independant from the government
Where are you anon? I want to abort you.
>>71324370
>A blind man can't sustain himself nor can someone with no arms or legs.
How can't they? Do the heart stop beating? The kidneys start to fail? If someone gives them food and water they can live
>>71324407
> are still incapable of sustaining themselves you ignorant fuck.
Sustain doesn't mean be able to gather food, water and such.
Sustain mean the ability for the body to sustain itself. To live biologically independent, not socially.
>>71323899
>A living being doesn't have to be a person in order to have intrinsic moral value and rights.
He arrived at this conclusion by comparing a fetus to animals, such as dogs and whales. Humans kill plenty of them, many times perfectly justified.
>Most everyone believes that a human fetus has essentially infinite worth when the mother wants to give birth.
>Only when a woman doesn't want to give birth do many people regard the fetus as worthless. Does that make sense?
Saying it's okay for her to have an abortion is not saying the fetus is worthless. Aborted fetuses can be studied or used for medical purposes.
All he's doing is fabricating contradictions to confront you with, when in fact those contradictions don't exist.
>>71312768
> harvesting organs from a corpse
Nigga you need to go back to school. Organs are never harvested from the dead, because the fucking organs are dead too. Brain dead is a different thing since the body is still functioning
>>71324686
They can't feed themselves or protect themselves.
And again if the woman gives nutrients to the fetus it can live.
It's same fucking shit.
>>71324407
>Parasites are BY DEFINITION not of the host's species.
I didn't said that fetuses are parasites. If i wrote in a way that you perceived as such, then sorry.
But if we had to class fetuses in any other way i.e. if fetuses were not considered human, Fetuses would be considered parasites.
>>71324594
keks were had
>>71324686
leftypol I love you buddy but I gotta say you're not making much sense with this sustain stuff. I think you're getting drawn into a debate that has nothing to do with your position on abortion.
>>71322652
>>71322914
Even before that it was already known to be a Christian board. I'm sorry that you're both newfags, but then again there is always reddit. So get out if you don't like it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD4Lhu7hcGM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD4Lhu7hcGM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD4Lhu7hcGM
>>71312829
Pathetic young beta edgelord, grow up you perma virgin neckbeared mouthbreater hat-tiper nu-male yellow fevered anime-watcher manlet
>>71324686
What the fuck are you on about? Food and water are necessary for an organism to live.
>But if we had to class fetuses in any other way i.e. if fetuses were not considered human
Well I guess that's tough tits, since they are genetically human regardless of how much pussyfooting and mental gymnastics people go through in order to assert that they're not.
Frankly, I couldn't give a flying shit about abortions. What I'm sick and tired of are all these disgusting mental hoops pro-choice faggots try to drag everyone through in order to justify the behavior.
You are killing a human being. You are killing your unborn child. If you can't handle the shame and the guilt without dehumanizing the "fetus" then you can go fuck yourself.
>>71324773
Biologically independent, not socially independent.
But keep sperging out
>And again if the woman gives nutrients to the fetus it can live.
And oxigen, and kidney function... If you took the fetuses out of her mother, there was no chance that the baby could live, only wit sheer luck and miracle
>>71325021
Wew lad, I think you used up your buzzwords for the day.
>>71325196
How about someone in critical state?
>>71324693
>He arrived at this conclusion by comparing a fetus to animals
Except he didn't. He explicitly said fetuses are human. Just that even if you don't cosider them persons you can't just kill them at will.
>Saying it's okay for her to have an abortion is not saying the fetus is worthless. Aborted fetuses can be studied or used for medical purposes.
Now you're picking on semantics. By worth he was refering to the fetus right to be protected, not if he's useful or not.
You also could be studied for medical purposes.
tfw dubs senpai
>>71312768
It's funny, I consider corpses more valuable than faeces. Because I consider humans with experiences to be supreme when compared to humans without experiences. Since you can technically resurrect a human (e.g. someone without a pulse), I'd rather defend a corpse than a fetus.
>>71323985
No, there are no exceptions. Human behavior is complicated, not what it means to be a human. It is black and white but people what to make up a grey area to dehumanize a living being and justify actions that would otherwise be against our morals and ethics and not accept the responsibly and morality of the decisions they are making on another human life to avoid shame and guilt.
>>71324919
> making much sense with this sustain stuff.
What part is is confusing? So where do we draw the line then?
>>71325148
>since they are genetically human regardless
Hair is genetically human
>Food and water are necessary for an organism to live.
Sustain biologically, not socially
>You are killing a human being. You are killing your unborn child.
Muh Feels!!!
How can you guys want a race war when you can't even allow that someone "kills" a thing that most don't even consider human
>>71325669
>only black and white
Seriously shut the fuck up. Life is way more complex than "Dur black and white". Go back to teach g the class about love and fear.
>>71325669
>No, there are no exceptions.
So if you take it in the ass one time you are a faggot? Even if you were raped?
Everything that is humans is never black or white.
>>71325438
Sickness is a obvious exception.
>>71325948
Why though?
>>71325853
Your right. Experience life is complex. But looking at what is alive is not. How about you go back to English classes for reading comprehension?
>>71325706
>Hair is genetically human
Yeah, but if you leave it on your head it still won't grow into a human being.
>Sustain biologically, not socially
Still not making any more sense than you did before. By your reasoning an unborn child should have the same protection and support as a blind person or a cripple.
>Muh Feels!!!
It's called responsibility you fucking degenerate, and the entire Pro-Choice paradigm centers around avoiding it. That's why you people disgust me. You refuse responsibility for the things you do and expect other people to agree with your off-hand slaughter of unborn children.
In case you weren't listening the first time, I couldn't give a flying shit about whether women abort their unborn children. Maybe if it were MY unborn child I would feel differently in that specific case. Point is, you're fucking degenerates that should be hanged. Same for organ thieves.
>>71312768
She isent aborting her body she is aborting the babies body, it just happens to be inside her
>>71326130
How about you go outside and realize there is more to life than black and white. If my child was going to be severely disabled, put my girlfriend or wife at risk of dying, or be retarded I would have no problem aborting it. That is my girlfriend and my own choice to make.
>>71325948
Op, here come the ad hominems. Yes, the living being is a victim and will be protected. I do not believe in being a hypocrite for someone's feelings. I am not sure how many times I can tell you so I will try to dumb it down for you. I am not saying life is not complicated, but seeing what is and not alive is not. You only want a grey area to fit your narrative and allow people to make unethical decisions with no fear of responsibility or guilt.
>>71316429
>you can't force someone to go through 9 months of hell because their condom broke
If the bitch didn't want kids, she should have kept her legs shut. She knew the risks. End of story.
>>71326121
Because it was a huma being before, and it may be again. Also because there his people who care about him enough to give him healthcare, or at least to send him to someone who can take care of him
>>71326136
>Yeah, but if you leave it on your head it still won't grow into a human being.
So?
> By your reasoning an unborn child should have the same protection and support as a blind person or a cripple.
I will never be able to explain my reasoning, either by my poor writing skills, your retardness or my own retardness.
>It's called responsibility
Lol, so if i have a down syndrome kid and can't abort it, then i will send him to you, since you like responsability so much.
>Pro-Choice paradigm centers around avoiding it.
Avoiding unwanted kids. It's literally a win win.
But you guys are exactly the same like "lefties". If you don't like something, then it should be banned, and others forbidden.
I, personally, don't like the abortion and the concept behind. But it's not my fucking bussiness. It should be a discussion betwen mom, dad (if there is one) and their physician.
>Point is, you're fucking degenerates
i.e. you guise hurt my fee fees
>>71326480
The fetuses is a living thing. But so his a cow. But i don't care if it gets killed for my hamburgers.
No one is denying that the fetuses is alive, only that if it is human or not
>>71326337
I believe you misunderstood me and letting your emotions get to you. In those cases (except retardation) I agree if the being will be incapable of ever sustaining them self or it presents itself a danger to the mother's life, then the mother or parents have the option to abort without punishment. But what it means to be human is still black and white. Although those being may have disabilities or been a danger, they were still as much alive as you or I, and dehumanizing them to avoid the morality of your decision to avoid shame or guilt is wrong and selfish. You ended a life, accept it.
>>71326524
Epic bait
>>71326480
Modern societies are built on those grey areas. We justify killing living people with families in other countries because we rationalize them into boxes labeled "terrorist" and "enemy combatant" when they have nothing to do with the lunatics who blew up a building and they're just defending themselves.
We slaughter and eat creatures that live horrible painful lives in factory farms because we rationalize the human race as being more important to the universe.
We let people around the globe go hungry because we rationalize they must have done something to deserve it if they're suffering. Not worked hard enough, bowed to the wrong king, or we just say they're too far and there's nothing we can do to help as we pour millions of tons of corn into the biofuel industry.
If we lived in a perfect world where everyone was responsible, we could say "Okay, stop, this is wrong. We need to take responsibility." but we don't because all these grey areas make our 1st-world lives easier and cheaper and more comfortable and happier. If you're willing to to say "No, the benefit we gain from letting abortion be legal is not worth the moral decay that comes from rationalizing it," then I hope you're ready to say the same for each and every little mental gymnastic you do to protect yourself from the back that your whole life and that of your family, friends, and everyone you meet is built on the backs of the destitute, the broken, the suffering, and the exploited.
Go ahead. Type one more post on your computer made of components that were built in a factory where robots displaced workers, that got gold and platinum shipments from mines on land stolen from the people who lived there, wrapped in plastic made from oil we got by poisoning communities with unregulated oil fracking. We'll know where you stand on "grey areas" then.
>>71327322
> You ended a life, accept it.
Of course. No one denies it.
Abortion is a serious thing to many mothers, and many carry emotional scars do to it. There are those that take it lightly. But do you guys seriously want people like that to raise kids?
>>71327492
So you agree with me. I am glad you understand. Just because people made up those grey areas, it does not make it right for you to take advantage of it for your own benefit.
>>71316432
>societies as a whole are extremely unlikely to come to an outrageous consensus like that
personal incredulity fallacy, prohibition happened, slavery happened, look at sharia law.
Moral relativism is a shoddy argument, governments have a duty to preserve citizen welfare, which includes death and future generations
>>71327492
Great post mate
OFFICIAL ABORTION LOGICAL CONCLUSIONS
***The only 2 valid positions on abortion***
-derived from the meaning and significance of "human" as opposed to another animal
1. Life begins at conception. Because the entity, barring interference will grow to be a human, drawing the line at any point until birth is arbitrary
2. After [measure of exceptional human intelligence]. This happens sometime after birth, which would mean infanticide
*this could justify excluding retards and other invalids depending on degree
Notable exclusion:
-Brain activity: invalid measure as it fails to distinguish itself from animals. Brain activity is not a measure of humanity by any definition
-Viability: otherwise valid measure, but temporary in nature. Viability will almost certainly eventually be conception.
Seeing that people probably won't allow for infanticide any time soon, it kind of narrows the choices down.
>>71327697
It's not my benefit, it's the benefit of women. I don't have a horse in the abortion race.
I kinda like grey areas. They can be pretty useful sometimes. I don't know about you, but the poster I was responding to makes a big talk about not being a hypocrite, so I hope he doesn't believe abortion is somehow different from all the atrocities that put a roof over people's heads.
>>71327656
>you want
I understand this is a foreign concept to leftists, but the rule of law should be held up above feelings
A bad person has the right to not be murdered
Even a murderer has a right not to be murdered
It's irrelevant what I want
>>71328148
> but the rule of law should be held up above feelings
Great, since abortion is leagal, desicussion over
/thread
>It's irrelevant what I want
True
>>71328148
>rule of law
Roe v. Wade stands firm, then.
>>71328117
Except when the being they are wanting to slaughter is half mine, the I sure as heck want my say and will fight for father's all over in the same situation and the life of a innocent being. I am not a hypocrite, I am aware of situations like those all over ever since the beginning of life, but people who believe abortion is not wrong lying to themselves that is not alive or human are.
>>71328380
>>71328275
contradictory laws based upon nonsensical differentiation, a symptom of the fallacies of case law rather than the affirmation of law itself
the ideology of the laws and the lawmakers has to be sound for the comparison to even hold water
>>71328117
And that is probably the thing that makes me angriest towards pro-lifers, that they believe their actions hold no morality.
>>71328117
*Pro-choicers
>>71328510
>Except when the being they are wanting to slaughter is half mine
This is my main issue with abortion. What if the father wants the baby, but the mother don't?
>>71328275
>debasing the argument into semantics
Leftists and manipulation of language is sickening
The point is that pro life thinks it's murder, which is barred by law and abortion is contradictory and erroneous
>>71328380
See
>>71328889
And stop being a bunch of little faggots.
>>71328510
My argument has never been "Abortion is not immoral", it's "Abortion, despite being immoral in many cases, is too important to a healthy society to be made illegal." I've never said otherwise.
I agree with you completely that the rights of the father in an abortion case is a woefully underdiscussed concept and needs to be explored.
However, the fact is the difference between the burden pregnancy places on the woman versus the burden it places on the man is too great not to give the woman special consideration.
>>71328889
It's hilarious that you can accuse anyone of semantics while saying abortion is murder. It's the most egregiously semantic argument pro-life has.
Saying "abortion is murder" is just saying "abortion is killing" with a more negative connotation to make placards appeal to muh feelz. Yes abortion is killing. No shit, sherlock. It's a legal killing sanctioned by the government. Go get the law overturned if you want it to be murder.
>>71328889
>manipulation of language is sickening
What manipulation of language?
> it's murder
murder is only when it is ilegal. Since abortion is legal, it's not murder.
>abortion is contradictory and erroneous
By your definition, yes.
>>71328581
That's just, like, your opinion, dude.
I think the differentiation is perfectly sensical and the ideology is sound.
>>71327107
>>I will never be able to explain my reasoning, either by my poor writing skills, your retardness or my own retardness.
It would be wrong to not feed a blind person just because they can't find food for themselves, right? In the exact same way it is wrong to deprive a growing, unborn child of the things it needs to survive, just because you don't want to go through a few more months of pregnancy. Hell, pregnancy is easier than caring for a blind person who can't get themselves food, you don't have to do anything consciously.
>>71323153
>it needs to think for itself
Then why can't children under the age of 1 also be aborted, they aren't self-aware yet?
Im actually prochoice but Im noticing on this issue "living" and "is a human being" really means "i havent seen it yet therefore its not alive". Either the criteria for human is the genetic one, in which case all abortion at all stages is murder or it's the self-awareness debate in which case killing a newborn should be legal because newbirn babies are not self-aware.
>>71329389
>I'll just ignore the other sides argument: the post
Pro life thinks it's an intentional, premeditated killing, which is murder
I'm not using semantics
>it's sanctioned by the government
Wow its like you completely ignored my post to argue semantics again.
>>71329464
>what manipulation
Ignoring the other sides argument and framing the issue as if it doesn't exist, you probably do it without intending to
>but it's legal
You're both ignoring my post and the argument of the other side. Just because you think the argument is wrong, doesn't erase it's existance
>by your definition, yes
And if one were to assume my definition were correct, it would make the legalization of abortion unconstitutional and illegal, and murder
The real argument over abortion is what constitutes a life, not the ancillary garbage that leftists ground the discussion in.
I've provided my argument to this effect here:
>>71327946
>>71329633
You didn't get my point too.
>>71329961
Because they can think for themselves.
And morality is a thing to entertain cuckservatives. I actually don't care much abot if it his a human being or not. My very own definition, based on muh feelz, is that a human is born on conception. the medical opinion is diferent.
But if one day i know my son will be retard, i would want it to be aborted, because i think it's a very selfish thing to bring a retard to life.
>>71330103
Read murder definition. Wiki is enough.
I don't give a fuck if you think it is imoral and what not.
>>71330103
>The real argument over abortion is what constitutes a life
No it isn't. It's what consititutes a life, what constitutes personhood, what constitutes citizenship, when is and isn't someone entitled to protection under the law, when is ending a human life justified, how does abortion help and harm society, and a lot of other factors that you are deliberately oversimplifying to paint the issue in black and fucking white that just so happens to favor your position.
>>71313499
Yes, and you currently have the right to abort that tapeworm.
>There are Christians in this thread right now unironically arguing for tapeworm rights
>>71330380
>read murder definition
You're grounding the fact that it's not murder in that it's "legal"
I'm saying if the law is illegal to begin with, it doesn't matter what the law says is legal
And your response is lalalalalalalala
>>71330459
No, it turns on what constitutes a human life, because if we were to establish that a [fetus] is a human life, then everything you've outlined would follow
>help and harm society
If it's established that a [fetus] is a human life, then no, that wouldn't be considered because we don't allow murder or even lesser killings to help society (unless infringing on another's equal rights)
>black and white
As opposed to obscuring the issue and removing it to legality of law right? An issue that had nothing to do with abortion and was answered hundreds of years ago?
Fuck off retard
>>71330848
Murder is very simple. If the killing is sanctioned by the law (comatose people that won't recover, abortion, death penalty...) then it's not murder. If the killing is not sanctioned by law, then it is murder. OP adressed this very well in previous posts
Like i said, just google wiki.
Abortion is still killing, but it isn't murder
>I'm saying if the law is illegal
If you can cherry pick laws, then of course you win.
>No, it turns on what constitutes a human life,
OP is absolutely right in what he said.
>>71330848
>I'm saying if the law was illegal to begin with
>The rule of law should prevail, except when it's a law I don't like
>If it's established that a [fetus] is a human life, then no, that wouldn't be considered because we don't allow murder or even lesser killings to help society
Even if we establish that a fetus is a human life, it's still not a citizen, and thus not a member of society entitled to the right to life. Citizenship is conferred at birth, like I posted above already. There's no debate on this, no twisted logic for you to abuse.
>infringing on another's equal rights
An undesired pregnancy infringes on the right to the pursuit of happiness that the Constitution grants men and women.
>>71330848
> we don't allow murder or even lesser killings to help society
self defense? War? Death penalty? Exploitation of third world countries resources?
You are full of shit.
>>71312829
>above 115 - abortion prohibited
>below 95 - abortion required
That should cover it.
>>71331356
>restate what was already refuted
So under your increasingly retarded position, if we were to legalise the intentional, premeditated killing of others, those killings would cease to be murder, because they're sanctioned?
To reiterate, your stupid argument is grounded in murder as defined by law, whereas mine accounts for natural law
>cherry pick laws
Literally what?
>>71331433
>it's still not a citizen
We don't permit murder of non citizens either. Assuming a fetus were human, it would meet the requirements for legal jurisdiction
>infringes on pursuit of happiness
Which is why I said "equal", the right to life trumps the others. You can't kill somebody in defense of free speech for instance
>>71331486
>omits the qualifier literally connected to the sentence
Taking quotes out of context is pretty dishonest senpai
>>71312768
That's a fucking loaded question.
>>71331486
>war, exploration
Things that aren't conducted in a state's jurisdiction
Are you being willfully retarded or just grasping at whatever straw you can reach?
>>71332232
>exploration
Exploitation*. Phone autocorrected.
>>71331909
> if we were to legalise the intentional, premeditated killing of others, those killings would cease to be murder, because they're sanctioned?
Yes, it's the fucking definition. When a soldier shoots a civilian it's not murder (sometimes).
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murder
for you
>Literally what?
Declaring some laws as laws, and others as unlawfull laws, without giving a reasonable justification
>>71332115
I think the quote is not dishonest. What modifier? I don't really know much about english gramar terms.
>>71332232
But we, as a society, are allowing things that qualify as murder, or lesser killing, take place to help us. And yes, some even within our jurisdiction. You can also argue that the jurisdiction of the US army is part of the US jurisdiction, therefore what happens there is in the state jurisdiction.
You havent adressed the Death penalty and the self defense. This is called cherrypicking.
>>71332052
>We don't permit murder of non citizens either. Assuming a fetus were human, it would meet the requirements for legal jurisdiction
I find that reasoning funny since most of /pol/ wants murder of non-citizens to be permitted if they're wearing a turban or sombrero, but that's fine, you got me there.
So lets go back to your original post and talk about human life.
>-derived from the meaning and significance of "human" as opposed to another animal
>-Brain activity: invalid measure as it fails to distinguish itself from animals. Brain activity is not a measure of humanity by any definition
I reject your exclusion of brain activity as a measure of human life. The failure of early brain activity to distinguish itself from that of animals is meaningless, because humans are animals. The only distinction you need to know that we're dealing with human life and animal life is that humans can only bear humans.
Intelligence specifically exceeding that of all non-humans can not be a qualifying factor, because some animals, such as dolphins and crows, will remain smarter than some severely handicapped humans their whole respective lives.
Many mammals, including humans, reach a measurable and well-defined level of sapience in or out of the womb, that works just fine as a threshold for when life begins. That level is the sensation of pain, which as I posted above, develops between 20 and 28 weeks. I think that's a perfectly reasonable cutoff beyond which to restrict abortion to exceptional cases.
>>71312954
It's her blood pumping through it's veins, though.
>>71332965
>that's the fucking definition
>murder doesn't exist outside of legal definition
It's semantics regardless. You're laying a contention that I'm being ridiculous by calling it murder when I can just as well say that it's an intentional premeditated killing. The fact is that murder being immoral is grounded in natural law, and every western system of law recognizes this, the point you're arguing is bullshit and a layman's understanding of what law even is in the first place.
Even still, in the United states it doesn't matter what law you pass if it's an affront to the constitution. So even following your bullshit semantic drivel, it could still be by definition illegal
>what modifier
The thing in parentheses you monkey
>we as a society are allowing it
No, not in our jurisdiction we aren't
>you can argue a battlefield is our jurisdiction
No you precisely can't, no legal system in the world would say that besides an extremely cucked sweden or something. Certainly not in the United states
>the death penalty
I think that's wrong as well for more reason than it being murder.
>and self defense
I actually did, in the parentheses. Infringing on an equal right to life justifies self defense. Applied to abortion I would say killing the fetus is self defense if the life of the mother is at risk.
>this is called cherry picking
A monkey not being able to read doesn't implicate anything I actually conveyed
>not reasonable justification
Lol really? Saying passing a law thats unconstitutional would be illegal is cherry picking and not reasonable?
Wew
