Are you against it, /pol/?
Instead of using animals, the benefits of using death row/life without parole/murder convicts or the mentally ill who would never be able to fully integrate themselves and operate normally in society:
>Accurate effects, diagnosis and far more viable samples on both medical and military experimentation;
>Considerably faster development and improvement of technology;
>Convicts/mentally ill will actually serve a purpose by giving their lives in the name of science, instead of draining [for the rest of their lives] the money that belongs to public revenue.
>>71126626
I would support it if it was performed on convicts that committed a violent felony or repeat offenders. I am against making government larger, but I imagine a level of oversight will be required. I do not support it for the mentally ill though. They can just be sent over the wall. Violent felons are a go though. Good topic man.
I don't, that's just torture, it's evil.
And it's not like we will live forever, we have to die someday, medical research goes against nature, we shouldn't torture hundreds of people just to live two more years.
>>71126626
While this seems like a good idea, it assumes that only death-row inmates are actually guilty, that those considered mentally ill were correctly diagnosed, and that this policy wouldn't incentivize false convictions and false diagnoses. I don't know about you, but I don't trust the legal and medical communities in my country enough to support something like this.
Wouldn't that be against your constitution or bill of rights?
I'm against any kind of state sanctioned torture or capital punishment because there will come a day an innocent man is condemned. Then all of us are implicit.
>>71127565
I'd mostly be worried about the potential for pharma companies with a lot of money being able to bribe psychiatrists and judges into making more severe mental illness diagnoses and harsher sentences, respectively, in exchange for some laundered money.
I wouldn't want my country doing this to be honest familia.
>>71127688
Very true but your scenario is far more advanced than mine, I want to nip it in the bud. You'll have very different perspective on this than me because no executions and solid public health care.
>>71126626
>Accurate effects, diagnosis and far more viable samples on both medical and military experimentation;
>Considerably faster development and improvement of technology;
The vast majority of experimentation that has the potential to kill or permanently damage a human can be carried out on animals. Animal models aren't perfect when considering effects on humans, but they offer other benefits. For example we can breed far more lab animals than the death row population and thus try out far more formulations of new drugs. I'm not sure why you think beginning drug or medical procedure testing on humans would necessarily result in shorter development times.
>>71127857
I agree with you.
>>71126626
I'm pretty sure we've done enough tinkering with the nervous system by now that this is literally just an excuse to cut people open.
>>71127342
What if that person has committed a violent felony against someone you love? As mentioned by anon >>71126806. It's sad that one needs to perceive it from the point of view of a family member, instead of thinking "this individual has caused and will proceed to cause harm to my people, therefore he needs to serve a different purpose in our society".
>>71127565
>>71127565
This is practically non-existent nowadays as modern polygraphs have a success rate of 100%. Severe mental conditions that completely impair the individual can be very easily diagnosed.
>I don't trust the legal and medical communities in my country enough to support something like this.
Definitely worth considering.
>>71128170
>his is practically non-existent nowadays as modern polygraphs have a success rate of 100%.
lol.
>>71126626
Because torturing people, no matter what they did, is degenerate you retard.
Doesn't matter if the subject is a psychopath, if your can vivisect him and sleep tight afterwards, you are a psychopath too.
>>71128170
I'll kill him personally but not torture him.
I'm not a demon.
>>71128057
When it comes to mental illness, we have to get right down to creating an accurate map of consciousness itself at the molecular level.
This is almost like suggesting that we start decrypting 128-bit encryption for just one suspicious file on a computer with billions of them using a pen and paper.
We need diagnostic equipment, starting with a 3D snapshot of the brain at the molecular level, not non-targeted guesswork like lobotomies, electroshock therapy, and other destructive experiments. That work has mostly been lined out already.
>>71127550
This is all the reason why things like op should never be accepted, not even suicide.
Laws can be written with all the good intent in the world but there can always be subversion of its purpose and creating any kind of incentive to it WILL lead to abuse.
You can't even take it easy on female teachers getting it on with their students, if it were legalized think of the abuse a white cys male privilege hating SJW bitch could do to young kids with the years of experience she has of manipulation and blackmail tactics. They may not even want a relationship, maybe that person wants to victimize as a retribution for perceived oppression. And you know they want to do it too.
>>71126626
totally against it.
Even without taking into account things such as morality and ethics, human experimentation is scientifically inefficient. I'll try to explain myself.
Why do we use mice or fruit flies for such things? Because when you intentionally infect a subject with a virus or an external agent, you need to see the effects of such thing throughout ALL the subject's life. Also you need to see if it has effects on his pregnancy and/or his descendants. This is how usually animal experimentation works.
Now a human life expectancy is 77 years now, a lab mouse has 1-4 years of life usually. A human, usually breeds a medium of 2-3 children, if forced you can put up something like 10 (people in the 50-60's used to fuck a lot). A mouse can have descendants into the magnitude of hundreds.
Bottom line, with a human subject, you'll know if your experiment worked out in 40-70 years (40 if subjects dies out, 70 if he survives treatment, and even less if the convict has been arrested already old), Also you'll have almost no clue about its effectiveness on the future generations, it could possibly fuck them up.
Also, stress. A mouse is not self-conscient. If you make him used of being manipulated by scientist, he will rapidly get used to it and won't bother. A man will know that he has been drugged or some shit, so he will be stressed, and it may affect results. No, you cannot drug him as well, it may affect the results as well.
If you want to improve sperimentation, just stop those goddamn animalist associations, who values mice's life more important than a child's.
>>71129126
And when/if this technological epoch actually happens, where we can literally understand the physical structure of a concept....
....I don't want to be around to see the results...
>>71126626
>convicts
Okay...?
So what if the person in question was sentenced to death for someone else's deeds? There's a huge difference in simply risking injecting a completely innocent person with lethal poison and cutting up his living flesh, with every single nerve ending screaming in pain, without him ever having the mercy of anesthetics, completely destroying him as a human being and utterly humiliating the poor fellow in the last moments of his misbegotten lifetime.
>mentally ill
Kill yourself.
>>71127878
The death row population can be used for the final stages of research. Certain effects that are found in rats are not found in humans and vice-versa, that's the main reason the last stages of research must be carried out on primates. Using convicts would certainly allow for considerably faster conclusions due to the accuracy of diagnosis, allowing these results to be formally implement and made available to the public in a faster and more reliable way.
>>71128728
>>71129126
As mentioned, if you cannot perceive that scenario on a larger, national scale, you're the one being a "psychopath" lacking compassion. So you would absolutely support death sentence for an individial who has murdered/raped/caused violent harm to someone you love, but not if that individual has caused violent harm to one of your fellow countrymen. Think about it for a minute.
And it's not torture. You're simply taking individuals who do not serve any real purpose in society and using them for scientific improvements, without the direct intent of causing pain - something that can be controlled for minimal suffering.
>>71129126
It's not about the degree consciousness within the brain, but how that individual would function in society. Any person with a severe and ultimately crippling mental condition, someone who would never be able to operate in society, would eventually only drain the wealth from society.
>>71129647
Abuse and violation is the core problem of the whole system, but I believe there are ways to isolate these issues. And I don't think a government that supports human live experimentation to be pro-social justice and the likes. XD
>>71130132
>The death row population can be used for the final stages of research.
Humans are already used for the final stages of research. At this point the potential risk of death or permanent damage is typically negligible. The exception would be in the case where someone has a life-threatening condition and the risk of damage presented by the procedure is acceptable due to the fact that the patient faces certain or almost certain death if they don't at least attempt the procedure. These conditions can't simply be replicated in a prisoner in order to study the potential benefit of a high-risk procedure. I really have no idea what type of research you expect would be better suited for prisoners than the regular population.
>>71130132
>It's not about the degree consciousness within the brain, but how that individual would function in society. Any person with a severe and ultimately crippling mental condition, someone who would never be able to operate in society, would eventually only drain the wealth from society.
This is irrelevant...
The point I was making was void of all ethical considerations about how they function in society.
You're suggesting we do human experimentation as if the experiments they're currently busy with cannot be performed on animals.
See:
>>71129956
There isn't even a benefit at this point.
>128 bit decryption using a pen and paper
The problems we currently face in neurology are not a lack of test subjects. It's a lack of information. If you can't even mount a wifi connection in place of a mouse brain, what use will you have doing the experiment on a human?
Try again later.
>>71128170
To add to what you're thinking here, a group with good enough resources and paid "witnesses" could forge a crime scene to implicate some one. Witnesses could be threatened into making a false claim etc, so the group can incarcerate and torture an innocent person, soon enough no one will be safe, and any one can be available for execution just on the grounds of political dissent. Laws should be followed, but even in Mexico, cartels have huge influence in politics, it's practically a revolving door. Ask yourself if you want your country to become the next Mexico.
Man goes to prison for 28 years because victim dreamed up the attack. Imagine if he was vivisected, I don't care whether you think "but he's a nigger", it should not be done to anyone.
>http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/new-trial-man-jailed-28-years-dream-rape-claim-article-1.2469667
>>71130132
>he thinks social-justice is about doing good
>doesn't realize it is a top-down psychological manipulation to control people and make them advocate for policies that are in opposition to their own welfare because it's labeled Social Justice.
>thinks importing endless waves of skill-less, uneducated. poor, extremist migrants into your country by the millions could possibly be beneficial and add to the stability of your community
>>71130132
>It's not about the degree consciousness within the brain, but how that individual would function in society. Any person with a severe and ultimately crippling mental condition, someone who would never be able to operate in society, would eventually only drain the wealth from society.
Why would you use studies conducted on a severely mentally disabled individual to draw conclusions about the effects of a drug or procedure on the general population? Individuals disabled to this degree typically have a wide range of medical problems and wouldn't be a suitable model for study.
No.
>>71131025
When did I ever say it? I absolutely reject the whole concept of modern social justice. And why are you even mentioning illegal immigration? I don't think I need to give an opinion on this cause you already know what my answer would be. XD
>>71130688
You also must consider how much of what's being presented to you today is true, specially in a West ruled by "politically correct" governments. They can just as easily manipulate information to shape your point of view on your country's justice system. This catch-22 reasoning suits our current situation just as well.
>>71131087
And you are 100% correct. The neurometabolism, and in severe cases, the physiology of the brain are far too different from that of a healthy person. The degree of incompatibility can be calculated, and by using this method doctors are currently allowed to give accurate diagnosis and prescribe personalized medicine.
But this only applies for neurometabolic traits, while the rest of the body operates normally. So experiments can still be conducted on other parts of the body.
>>71127342
if you're against any torture - ok.
but wanting to torture animals who have done harm to no one and at the same time crying for vicious criminals is sick.
>>71131908
>The degree of incompatibility can be calculated, and by using this method doctors are currently allowed to give accurate diagnosis and prescribe personalized medicine.
1) You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about
2) By your logic, why couldn't this be done with a non-human primate?
>>71131908
Sure, because I need some one else's ideology to discern what is good or harmful.
I hope you had fun or got paid well, because when the currency crashes, whatever so called wealth you accumulated in this process will be worthless and the government can and will do to you anything that people like you allow to be done to others, be it incarceration or vivisection.
>>71126626
of course
>>71126626
Wait, did the Nazis really make animal vivisection illegal?
>>71132253
Personalized medicine does exist, and it's not only based on the neurometabolic traits of the patient but also their whole endocrine traits, lifestyle, etc.
Even different races have a different endocrine characteristics that must be considered by doctors when giving diagnosis and prescribing medicine.
This same method IS conducted on primates in order for us to calculate how compatible and reliable the tests are in comparison to what would be observed on a human subject, but tests on primates are still not nearly as reliable as tests on humans. Even different races of humans carry considerable differences in endocrine operation, let alone different species.
>>71131959
Animal experimentation still must be conducted to a great extent, as we cannot simply "breed criminals" - although the "Programmed to Kill: The Politics of Serial Murder" conspiracy seems very legit and it's also a scary concept on its own.
>>71133053
I still fail to see how conducting the final phases of drug trials on death-row inmates and the severely mentally ill is better than regular drug trials conducted on the general public.
>>71133328
In order to reach the final stage, prior to conducting experiments on humans, you need a history of successful experiments on animals and enough data providing exceptionally accurate material, so then the experiments are approved and can be conducted on human subjects. This process takes years and sometimes decades to reach the very last stage, and using human convicts during this final process prior to conducting the experiments on the general public would ensure their safety.
There are still numerous reports today on people who suffer greatly from poorly-engineered medicine, and sometimes leading to death. This is the main reason why certain drugs have a ridiculously long list of side-effects (such as isotretinoin) that they're clearly unable to pinpoint the cause due to not having conducted enough tests on human subjects, for being rather powerful medication and therefore cannot be simply tested on the general population to a great extent.
By testing on convicts and inducing different scenarios (you can shape one's metabolism through the assitance of drugs to fit a specific metabolic scenario) you allow for a far more accurate preview of the drug, before being finally made available to the general population.
>>71134451
The population you're suggesting we study is far too small for all drugs to be tested on prior to testing on those who enroll in drug studies. The model of drug development you're proposing is needlessly complex while providing no additional benefit. Aside from that it would never be approved of by the general population, the companies that are actually developing the drugs (and have the money to influence laws in their favor). If testing on the inmates and the mentally ill was in any way beneficial, don't you think big pharma would have already found a way to do it?
