I've heard two outcomes:
>Raising minimum wage increases cost of living and automation. Dollar devalues and people are fucked even more.
>Raising minimum wage increasing buying capacity, which leads to more demand of goods and thus more jobs.
Which one is right?
>>71064718
General rule of thumb is more money poor people make, the more they spend it.
The unanswered question is if they're going to raise the welfare limit to correspond with the increase in minimum wage.
If they don't increase the welfare limit, that means the poor will work less so they can stay on welfare...which defeats the purpose of the $15 minimum wage.
>Raising minimum wage increasing buying capacity, which leads to more demand of goods and thus more jobs.
not without increasing the cost of goods produced here or laying people off to make up for it
>>71064718
>>Raising minimum wage increasing buying capacity, which leads to more demand of goods and thus more jobs.
Who told you that? Whoever it is, give them the boot.
The first one. You have to be a retarded commie to think the second one is true.
In Zimbabwe everyone makes 6 trillion per hour. Are they rich?
>>71064718
its intuitive, but at the same time misleading.
Yes, increasing federal minimum wage always has an impact on petroleum prices, which is where the real price manipulation on goods comes from.
The average store owner doesn't mark up based on the news he hears about minimum wage going up, he watches the shipping prices of his goods which are based on petroleum prices, which are most directly influenced by minimum wage.
However, the people that are really hurt over federal minimum wage hikes are non-unionized workers, not because they are taken advantage of by the companies, but because the higher minimum wage functions as a security against hiring non-union workers.
No one is positive because macroeconomics is basically voodoo.
Higher minimum wage means people make more money, thus more taxes are paid. Just another way the government is sticking it to business and killing small business owners.
>>71064718
>raising minimum wage increases... cost of automation
no it doesnt? It actually incentives more people to innovate and automate.
>>71065412
Only if companies want to keep their profits at the same level as before the wage increase, rather than take a short term hit for long term benefits.
>>71065768
he wrote it wrong, but you know he meant cost of living / and automation
$15/hr is about 28k/year for a full-time worker, pre-tax.
We can afford that as a nation
Truth is that minimum wage should be lowered.
>>71064718
Australia has a high minimum wage, but they have to pay like 100 dollars in US for games compared to under 60 for other western countries. I'm assuming other things are more expensive there too, why wouldn't that be the case for places in the US that adopt 15 dollars per hour?
>>71065558
I tried to find out how BernOuts justify the raise and they linked several videos from literally MoveOn.org. Regardless, they believe this will actually happen.
>>71065882
Yeah if only the greeks weren't so greedy.
>>71064718
One only has to look at a communist country, and see the value of their country.
>>71066259
Give them credit for giving the finger to Germany and the World Banks for as long as they did.
>>71066142
How much is a 2L pack of milk, no brands or anything special (Bio-friendly, gluten-free or that gay shit), just milk.
€1.09 here
>>71064718
The second one.
See, this is how the trickle-down effect was actually supposed to work; we loosen the reins on the market, corporations make lots of money, they pay their employees more as a result, the employees buy more goods, other companies thrive as a result so they have to employ more people...and so on and so on.
At some point, corporations though "fuck that - what if instead of spreading the money around, we kept it for ourselves?" and that's basically where we are now - with the government stepping in to try and balance things.
The system needs shaken up. If you're not going to vote Trump, vote Bernie. Cunty Clinton just guarantees more of the same. At least those two will make shit fun to watch.
>>71066032
its not the nation its the businesses you fucboi
For all the "conventional wisdow" you see around /pol/, the worst-case scenario of raising the minimum wage literally never happened. The minimum wage has been raised countless times in countless places all over the world, never did it turn out bad for the emplyees.
Whatever scary development you always see spouted around here (mass firings, crazy cost hikes, etc.), they don't happen.
>Implying the cost of living hasn't already been increasing
grocery prices over here doubled in the past 5 years, yet the minimum wage has barely been raised. And yes, the raise of minimum wage will definitely have an effect on some goods sold in stores, but since most goods are imported, it won't have as a big effect as most of you idiot think. And the higher money people have in their pocket, the more they are able to purchase, ultimately resulting in more jobs, with slightly higher prices and significantly higher purchasing power.
Don't think for a second that pure capitalism will ever work, only an idiot would think that. The best thing is a mix of both socialism and capitalism. Sure the socialist leaning countries don't have the same economy as the united states but who the fuck cares. The job of the government is to govern and try to keep the budget balanced, not to run a ridiculous aamount of profit.
>>71066444
that filename
no idea why but my sides left me
>>71066447
well, wages have gone up in the 60s and 70s due to union demands and inflation was out of control. This would probably lead to quite a bit of inflation. We are lucky in the west these days to have never experienced real inflation.
>>71064718
>>Raising minimum wage increasing buying capacity, which leads to more demand of goods and thus more jobs.
Yeah, the demand for burgers and other low cost items that are more often then not imported from overseas.
>>71066393
it's 3.60ish here for a gallon, which is 3.7l
So it's like 3.20 euro
>>71066032
THANK YOU
When will these ppl get it? To top it off corporations will just replace everything with robots they already are so if you happen to be one of those ppl slinging burgers. You going to be replaced with a robot its coming!
>>71064718
you fuckes can't be this dense !
raising minimum wage doesn't mean that everyone will get more money (and result in inflation, which mean that nothing would change)
he raise the lower ones.
if you earn $20/hr you won't be affected.
>>71064718
The people protesting for a 15/hour min are the ones who are too lazy to better their own lives and want a free handout.
There are many tools in place(online classes etc) that allow for these people to earn a degree or certificate so that they can find a better paying job -They just have to put in some effort.
Hi toothpaste, Ex Seattler and soon to be Ex New Yorker here.
Just a quick rundown how 15$ an hour has devastated Seattle
>Prices have gone up; 20-30% on average
>Many low skilled jobs have left and/or been automated
>People have asked for reduced hours to still qualify for welfare benefits
>Seattle based businesses are struggling
>Service Jobs like maid, plumbers, etc are now based outside of Seattle and bus their employees in to do the work. And for alot cheaper than local competitors.
>Small businesses are struggling, the only thing that survives are family run delis and corporate stores like 7/11, Mcdonalds, Starbucks
>Starbucks is seeking to relocate its roastery outside of seattle
>Tacoma is absorbing all the capital flight
>Tacoma is set to overtake seattle in the next 5 years
>All the manufacturing has gone there.
>Boeing and a few other big guys saw the writing on the wall and left just in time
>I still have family in Seattle, they are planning to sell their house, but cant get back what they paid for it.
>Some unions that 'fought for 15' are now petitioning the city to reduce the wage, because their jobs are on the line and going to either right to work states or to less union friendly cities in the state
>In the areas surrounding seattle many local seats have been won by people promising not to repeat seattle's 15$ mistake
>New York is set to have a 15$ minimum wage soon
>Almost all investment in the outer boroughs; Brooklyn, Staten Island, Queens and the Bronx has stopped
>Property prices are going up
>Rents are going up
>Manufacturers still based in the City are relocating ASAP
>People with Investment capital are getting ready to leave
>I am going to lose my job come 2018 when my company leaves to Oklahoma
>Thanks cuckmo
>>71064718
>Which one is right?
We're gonna find out because California is raising its minimum wage to $15
Lets take a burger-making trailer as an example.
a guy had a trailer and made huge profits. Later on he bought a second trailer and got some employess. All going nice
>bernie wins and wages go up
Now we have 2 options:
a) businessmen have infinite money = he will try to automate things and will rake on cash.
b) businessmen have just enough money = he will kick people out, creating unemployment that will lower the demand and allow him to work people to death (unemployment is high, people can no longer choose where to work)
most of our society is made of small businessmen so shit actually goes down when wages go up. All the arguments pro-wage are something in the lines of "my feelings demand it"
you should be able to decide now.
>>71066987
Not gonna happen. In most cases, robotizing something will cost more since there is the cost to get it all started, on top of maintenance, power bills and most of the time, there is always things that cannot be robotized. And if they start replacing employees with robots, you will likely see people boycotting the store. If all else fails, just tax extra businesses who robotize their workforce. Oh.. yea right... that's just wrong, the government shouldn't have a say in all of this because muh free market which has been shown to be a shitfest.
>>71064718
>Living in a cuntry where minimum wage is approaching $15
>Worlds largest exporter of milk, have to pay $4 for 2L
>Minimum wage becomes standard wage for most people
>NZ manufacturing slowly dying and NZ goods replaced with shit tier imports.
Just fuck my country up.
>>71066450
>let's drive out all the businesses so the multinational corporations, the only ones who can afford 15$ min wages, reign supreme with their competition buckling under red tape and absurd costs of doing business
How about you canacucks can do that and we can watch over here while you descend into your communist nightmare
>>71067361
Thanks for the info, some BernOut tried to convince me "Seattle is doing pretty well"
Once it goes nation-wide, there's nowhere to run though, wonder what will happen then
>>71067654
unless NZ wages are $2/hr and they get rid of the environmental laws then NZ can't compete with china and bangladesh
This is why we need tarriffs on imports from 3rd world shitholes
>>71067361
The counter argument to this is that in Seattle is was implemented suddenly. In places like New York it will be gradual to allow for everyone to adjust.
But with a gradual increase the short term benefits will be quickly subside and everything will balance out again.
>>71067638
Can be true in most cases sure but thing is thats not what is happening. Shockingly already few mcdonalds have installed digital screens to make order and when i seen the back room only one person was back there and was some hopper on gears doing most the work. Big corporations have the money though to do what you are saying and they look at the long term not short. Might cost more at first but they have the funds.
>>71067699
Holy shit, are you really this retarded? Do you really think that walmart is not killing small businesses already? Besides, if a business cannot survive on its own, then it does something wrong, isn't muh free market the motto of burgerland? You guys have been brainwashed to the point where you are so afraid of change that you just stick to status quo.
>>71064718
Yeah! More demand of goods!
Wait, where are those goods made?
>>71065882
Well, no worries, then!
Corporations are well known for constantly sacrificing short term profits for the promise of possibly maybe having some unknown benefit at an undefined point in the future!
Oh, wait, no, I meant the opposite of everything I just said.
>>71064718
Why not both?
We've never increased wages $1/year for six years.
>>71068127
A few mcdonalds replaced some of their cashiers with touch screens too, but guess what, they still have 1-2 cashiers at all time, on top of managers, people to cook the burgers in the back and maintenance workers. I remember being there t 1 am, and there were 2 cashiers,1 manager and 3 cooks, and let me remind you this is in canada, the only thing open past 10pm are hospitals, emergency service and mcdonalds. If they have 6 people working at that time of the night, on top of having touchscreens, I ain't worried. And like i said, if the government forces extra taxes on business which robotize their workforce, or give tax breaks to business which don't would be enough to fix the problem.
I'm sorry, but if you honestly think that you deserve to make more than $15 an hour then you need to get out there and acquire a new skill set that will make you more valuable to an employer.
If you invest more in yourself then employer will invest more into you. It's that simple.
Anyone got that pic where the floodwaters rise and the houses magically become boats?
That's what'd happen.
Increasing minimum wage will cause a lot of businesses to simply go offshore, or hire illegals (which Berniestein has no intention of deporting). Will severely fuck up small business too.
Both are a massive oversimplification in a global market, buts its the second one
>>71064718
The only people who advocate for a 15$ minimum wage are the ones who don't know economics.
The single largest cost of business is employee wages
Increasing wages will cause AS to decline.
The net result of this shift is an increase in unemployment, an increase in inflation, and a decrease in gdp. Also this will increase the budget defect
Source: literally any introductory economics text book
>>71068166
Walmart is killing small business because all their goods come from Chinese slave labor- if protectionist policies (that trump is proposing) were in place they'd have to compete on an equal playing field with other american businesses
Many small businesses ARE surviving on their own despite our ridiculous taxes and globalist trade agreements, the point is when you raise the cost of doing business across the board for all industries it always benefits the biggest businesses because they're more likely to be able to afford it while their smaller competition often cant
Do they teach you economics in Canada, or does weed man just tell you 'lol give foreigners all your gold bro' and call it a day?
>>71065412
In the american union, Most goods are made outside of america...
>>71065616
Tbh this.
Econ majors try to claim they fall under the STEM umbrella but they really dont
>>71064718
The first one. Artificially manipulating the economy by increasing the minimum wage is a horrible way to satisfy demand (you don't create demand you release capital to satisfy it). First off, there is a high probability that the price of goods would raise in accordance with the wage increase (and most wages will likely rise because they are determined via the invisible forces of the market). Second, many of these people will not qualify for government programs if they are moved up to $15 bucks under Sanders it's a grand possibility they might have less capital due to his tax hikes. Third, you have to look at how a $15 minimum wage will even affect spending. Let's say 100 people make a nickel a year and their wages doubled did their buying power double as well? Well not in our economy. The point is that even with double the income the poor people will not be able to buy much more or contribute to the economy. They may be able to secure the essentials for their family but that is it. A much better, healthier, and natural way to raise wages is cut immigration in half. It's simple supply and demand a long with visas not forcing people out of their jobs or to work for astronomical amounts lower because of the benefits the business gets. Another great way would be to mandate E-verify. You actually raise the wages without any of the downsides. Keynesian economics does not work.
>$15 min wage
>Prices begin to double
>People previously making $15 are still kept at $15, invalidating year(s) of work at job
>People previously making $15 start spending less due to new inflation
>jobs halt hiring & lay off previous employees
>jobs make work harder and longer for the few that remain
>"first jobs" get even harder to obtain
The amount of problems this causes is vast. If you're going to raise the minimum wage, you have to do it in small increments, and slowly. Like how previous min wage was $5.25 and went to $7.25. A rational increase would be another $2, maybe even $10 at most.
>>71066032
>paying some useless fucker 28k/year to flip a burger
No. Kill yourself.
>>71065882
You don't know how publicly owned companies work do you? If they were to "take a short term hit" they would be destroyed as investors would literally pull out. Since human labor is the most expensive portion of running a business there profits will downfall like crazy and anyone with a brain would stop investing in them. They have two options: increase prices on goods or cut jobs.
>>71064718
>Raising minimum wage increasing buying capacity, which leads to more demand of goods and thus more jobs.
This is fundamentally false. There aren't a lack of jobs right now, this is artificially created by the government through minimum wage; something more minimum wage won't fix. You look at graphs of African American workers and they start losing jobs when minimum wage is introduced. The people who lack the skills for their work to be worth the minimum wage are not hired.
With minimum wage you are saying that it is illegal to hire workers that have a skill set worth less than that wage. These people are suffering so that labor unions can make sure their workers are succeeding.
>>71068643
15$ might be a bit too much of a raise as a canadian, but given the fact that you don't have free healthcare nor education and barely any social services, it seems pretty decent for someone living in the U.S. Also good luck getting the "skill set" required when you can barely afford your rent and a meal, even less a college education. The whole point of social benefits is to help people to get their life on tracks and be more than just a welfare recipient. Instead of spending money on education and healthcare, you'd rather spend billions on military, prisons and tax breaks/bailouts for businesses. The education provided will create a more qualified workforce, which will get a better salary off of which can be taxed, instead of keeping those people in a minimum wage job, barely being able to feed themselves. And it is a known fact that poverty and low education are the main factors for crimes committed. So my question to you is, which of the following would you rather have?
1. Pay for someone's 4 years of education, allow him to find a good paying job, which will remove him from welfare and make him able to contribute to society both via taxes and the work he's doing
2. Not paying for his education, keep him working a minimum wage job until he's so much in debt that he will resort to crime and violence, which will then put him in prison. The same prison that is paid with people's taxes.
Let me just remind you that the cost of jailing someone for a year, or putting someone through college for a year is about the same, with the difference being that one of them will get out of it with a degree giving him the opportunity for a job, while the other will get out with a record which will prevent him from getting a job, which will either land him on welfare, or back into jail after he tried to make some money via crime.
>>71069588
>free healthcare nor education
>free
There's that word again, plant. Maybe you should take a look at your fucking tax rate and waiting lists.
>>71066393
Milk is so cheap in the US the Government actually had to set minimums you're legally allowed to sell it for, just to protect the dairy farmers.
The "Government Cheese" thing we had for welfare was borne directly of that program. We had to do something with all the milk, so we turned it into some actually fantastic cheese (it was good shit...) and gave it to poor people and schools.
We still support the dairy industry to this day. Individual states also have their own programs.
That said... $3/Gal from milk squeeze fresh from a shecow's titty at a farm not twenty miles from here. On sale, it can go down to about $2.50.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_Price_Support_Program
https://www.cdfa.ca.gov/dairy/Milk_Pricing_Works.html#regulated
>>71066437
You have no idea how things work. A company would never think "I don't want my workers to be efficiently happy". This is how you keep profits steady and minimize risk, as well as get the best people have to offer. And the government doesn't try to balance things, the government caused these things, and will continue to cause them because it's what unions and corrupt politicians want
>>71066437
Only an idiot would think the second one is true. Unless you're literally clueless about publicly traded companies the second one is bullshit. You either oust people out of their jobs or the prices increases so they still can't make it.
>>71066437
I'm not so sure that the Government is trying to balance anything. They seem to give huge corporations the lowest tax rates in the country, if they even make them pay at all. Executive "bonuses" are inane, and should be illegal. Nobody needs a bonus as big as 10 of his employees yearly salaries when he's already making dozens of times more than his employees make.
>>71068166
>Do you really think that walmart is not killing small businesses already?
We have had more shops in town since Walmart showed up than we ever had before. Local businesses were able to survive and thrive because a "shopping district" was created that brought in dozens of chains and thousands of new jobs. With the increased traffic came an increased market for small local vendors, who've been doing just fine.
Literally the only people hurt by Walmart are nigger-tier gas-station "convenience" fuckshops selling $6 bags of Doritos to a bunch of customers that fucking hate the owners and how badly they extort their customers... who bailed ship the moment there was another option.
>>71069819
Don't try to get technical on me. It obviously isn't "free" since you have to pay it through taxes, but it is definitely "free" in the sense that you don't directly pay for it.
As for waiting list, it is true that some procedures have a waitlist, but rest assured, you won't be waiting more than 5 minutes in the ER for any emergencies. I had appendicitis and I showed up to the ER and in 5 hours, i consulted a GP, radiologist which then took ultrasound pictures, saaw the GP a second time, et with the surgeon, and then put on a bed and off the surgery. The so called "waitlists" are for things like xrays or colonoscopy which are just regular checkups procedures. And rest assured, if you cannot wait a month for those things, you can always go and pay 300$ out of pocket for the xray at a private clinic.
>>71070294
>but it is definitely "free" in the sense that you don't directly pay for it.
YOU FUCKING COMPOST HEAP STOP BRINGING YOUR MENTAL OLYMPICS IN HERE FAGGOT. IT'S NOT FREE, NOT EVEN REMOTELY FREE. YOU PAY FOR IT AND THEN SOME FOR THE REST OF YOUR ROTTING LIFE. HAVE FUN PAYING FOR MOHAMMAD TO FUCK WHITE COLLEGE BITCHES AND DROP OUT.
>>71070289
>we have had more shops in town since walmart showed up
Sure, keep deluding yourself into believing that, but the fact is, walmart has been destroying every small business everywhere it went, sometimes going as far as selling products at a fucking loss, to get the businesses around it to close shops.
>>71068571
I bet only the manager makes anywhere close to 15 and hour.
Bring EVERYONE up to 15 and hour and it's going to go down to a cook and a manager at night, and 2 cooks and a manager and a cashier during the day.
>>71069588
>a fucking leaf
>The whole point of social benefits is to help people to get their life on tracks and be more than just a welfare recipient
But they end up doing the opposite, you have to look at everything through the lens of incentive. What's the incentive to get off welfare if they'll pay for everything? These people aren't able to get a job because money has a real value and they can't provide the skills to pay the bills.
>The education provided will create a more qualified workforce
And devalue jobs that require education, and also devalue the quality of the education.
You give us two choices, and are begging the question quite literally. There are many more options than what you gave.
>>71069588
>The whole point of social benefits is to help people to get their life on tracks and be more than just a welfare recipient.
AaaaaaaaahahahHahahahahahahahaah
Oh wait you're serious
AaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaHah holy shit
Welfare = vote for me and I'll give you other people's shit you fucking idiot. You turn people into parasites and they can't survive without a host, you condition them to feel entitled to other peoples wealth, and eventually you have entire families and generations who live entirely on parasitism and will never be self-sufficient BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE TO BE. THE ONLY TIME PEOPLE WORK IS IF THEY HAVE TO. IF YOU GIVE PEOPLE THE OPTION TO NOT WORK AND GIVE THEM FOOD + SHELTER THEN EVERY NIGGER IN YOUR COUNTRY WILL TAKE THAT OPTION INDEFINITELY
IP banning Canada is a reasonable request at this point, all you do is shill communism (and ignore posts that BTFO you and only respond to insults and idiots so you can feel superior)
>>71066664
I suddenly want a shirt like that.
>>71070535
Holy shit, are you really that retarded? Read my fucking comment dipshit. No it is not free since it's paid by MY TAXES, but it is definitely free in the sense that I DONT HAVE TO PAY WITH VISA WHEN IM GETTING A SERVICE. Besides, It was definitely free as fuck while I was a kid in highschool, and it is still free right now as I'm going through college. Yes I pay taxes, and guess what, since I'm a student making less than 15k a year, I'm getting every penny taxed back, so yes you fucking compost heap, I am getting healthcare for free. When I do finish with university, I will be paying a shit ton of taxes, but so far it's been 100% free.
>>71065116
The more people make, the more the government taxes them
>>71070563
I like how you ignore >>71068976 where I told you exactly why you're fucking wrong
>>71064718
Raising minimum wage is not a means to an end. The point is to make companies pay for what the government is already shelling out in food stamps and subsidies. The problem is that the market will adjust and most likely result in the same PPP as before.
It is a short answer to something that deserves a longer and more detailed response. The problem is politicians don't care about anything past the next election cycle, so jack shit will happen.
>>71064718
>Raising minimum wages creates more demand
Who fucking told you this lie? You will have no more demand than you would without the minimum wage. You can't create more demand by reducing someone's disposable income. Broken windows fallacy.
I make $20 hr right now. Does this mean that since CA raised the minimum wage to $15 (current $10) does this mean my wage goes to $25?
>>71064718
you cannot pay someone more than they produce for the company
period
a mcdonalds worker may only produce 100 dollars worth of sales in their skillset in an 8 hour period, and if they were paid 15 dollars an hour, they just cost more to pay than they produced.
>>71070806
>they take 70% of my paycheck and give it directly to terrorists
>but it's ok because I don't need to take my credit card out of my wallet
Dumb cunts. Feel le bernface.
>>71064718
>>Raising minimum wage increasing buying capacity,
cutting my taxes does that and far more efficiently
Instead of raising wages, let people take home more of what they earn FIRST
>>71070875
Good job fellow American. Thanks for the information! Fuck this underage communist leaf
>>71069942
Lol well apparently companies sure do think that because CEO to worker pay has gone from 50:1 to 300:1 over the last ~30 years while the median wage has remained flat. I'm no Bernie supporter but I at least take the time to pay attention. Why do you think quantitative easing multiplied the value of every major market index while other economic growth indicators lag? Because we now know that when you give rich people a bunch of free money they're just going to buy back stock and inflate the value of the company...none of that money goes into worker's wages
If we continued the trendline for men's median wage before Reaganomics, it would be somewhere around $100,000...enough to actually support a family. Trickle-down economics is a kike plot to stop goyim from having families
I dont get why people give a fuck about burger and pizza joints and all those shitty small businesses. If they go out of business because 15 dollar hour so what its for the greater good. Realistically what will happen is that these places will still operate as they used to or they may have to downsize a little. People will still get hired and paid chump change under the table. Minimum wage has absolutely nothing to do with socialism.
>>71070806
You know what, I changed my mind Canacuck you can stay. We need people like you around to remind the kids how retarded communists are
![c01c14455ceaf5e030ac2bd660990e06[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/449r4Jn.png "c01c14455ceaf5e030ac2bd660990e06[1].png")
>>71070910
Also reposting this.
>>71070669
>what's the incentive to get off welfare
Hmm, let me think.... maybe the fact that welfare gives you just enough to get by, and won't allow you to buy that new laptop you want, nor that brand new mercedes. That is the incentive. And no, it does not devalue the jobs that requires education in most cases, since qualified workforces are in high demand. So high in fact that most of your companies have to hire from other countries. For the few jobs that do get devalued, it is way better than a lousy mcdonald job. Just because the job pays 50k instead of the 70k, doesn't make the education worthless.
>>71066900
>a retard finally agrees with you, another retard
>THANKZ XD
>>71069588
> 2. Not paying for his education, keep him working a minimum wage job until he's so much in debt that he will resort to crime and violence, which will then put him in prison. The same prison that is paid with people's taxes.
Except that poverty doesn't correlate to crime. Poorest areas of this nation are in Kansas and Kentucky, and they see almost no crime, whereas areas with a very high black/mexican populations tend to lead the charts in terms of crime and murder.
>>71070900
Sorry, didn't see it, tax imported good, tax break for local items, problem solved. Besides, walmart is not the only one which can import shitty chinese products. The small businesses can do the same.
>>71070910
You don't create demand by increasing capital, but you do give more money to satisfy demand. Demand is nearly infinite whether it's for businesses ever expanding in regards to potential employees or someone who wants the new iPhone.
>>71071176
Except that pay for high education jobs drops once there isn't a demand for those people. and what you just said is an incentive to not be poor, not to get off welfare. Those people wouldn't be on welfare in the first place.
>$15
Quality sides. Don't aim too high there lads.
>>71071389
You're not creating more demand though. The idea of anything being infinite goes against the law of economics known as scarcity. If your logic worked, then why don't we increase the minimum wage to $20 or $30 per hour?
>>71070703
Keep telling yourself that. You end up with 1/3 of the black population ending up in jail. Once you got a record, you're a lifetime recipient of welfare. Guess you should have invested in giving the niggers education instead of alienating them and keeping them in poverty, effectively driving them to gangs,violence and crime. Isn't is funny how most socialist leaning countries (Don't give me the example of a third world shithole like mexico) have far fewer violent crimes than the U.S.?
>>71071157
We currently NEED burger flippers though. Mc'Donalds won't go out of business, they will just suck it up and accept the increased costs. They might cut some jobs too but, yeah, no biggie for improved standard of living.
Why don't we just raise the minimum wage to $1,000,000/hour so everyone can be rich?
>>71071045
Good point about the CEO wage increase. It has to do with corruption however, you don't see gigantic CEO wages in small local businesses. The business is their wage, because they have to put everything they earn back into the company
>>71070943
They take a big chunk off your paycheck to give it directly in form of arms and training to terrorirsts, sorry scratch that, "rebels" such as the talibans during the soviet war, or syian rebels which turned out to be ISIS/al-nusra all along.
Here is the legitimate problem /w $15/hr min wage.
If I owned a small business and employed 10 people. half are entry-level, learning the trade, starting under $15/hr. The other half are seasoned professionals/tradesmen. They are making $20-$30/hr.
Boinie Sanders becomes queen of the nation and makes federal min wage $15/hr. - as an owner not only does my payroll and payroll taxes jump up, but I also have a equity problem. The seasoned half of my workers are saying "Hey, I'm skilled and experienced. I am now only making $5 over the min wage. I want a raise that justifies my experience."
Most people assess their value in the workforce from a personal prospective and the benchmark for almost all wage workers is... minimum wage. They don't evaluate their ability to generate profits but how far above the minimum wage they can get.
You are disenfranchising anyone who makes over $15/hr by starting such an erratic and drastic increase in the minimum wage.
All this in addition to the fact that it just saps small business and drives employer focus to automation.
>>71064718
I agree with the ideal of a minimum wage, but I really think it's more of a monetary issue. Just look at the last 15 years, inflation has made prices increase, and decreased the value of wages, the quality and quantity of goods. If you really want to help the poor, we need to deflate the currency, but not through a fantasy like the gold standard. We need to use credit to expand production so that we can reduce the debt and inflation. Restricting the amount of money out there isn't going to solve our problems, but increasing the number of goods will.
>>71071136
>communism
>doesn't know the difference between socalism and communism
>ignores the fact that I said that a balance between socialism and capitalism is necessary and that both of them in their pure form cannot work
>calls me retarded
Gtfo
>>71068105
No. Both have been implemented gradually. Seattle did it over a four year period, where as new york is doing it in two.
Seattle is slowly emptying out of poorer people and no one is coming in to take their place. Thereby creating a demand for low skilled labor that can only be met by automation. A mcdonald's I used to visit, has 6 self checkout registers now, with all the people either in the back or cleaning tables. Here in NYC they are planning to open a chain of fully automated restaurants. In the style of the turn of the century automats that were put out of business by the fastfood worker unions and their constant vandalism.
>>71071627
>make the claim that socialist countries have fewer violent crimes
>then say don't name any that prove me wrong
>>71071751
And people die because of it, so it makes me happy. You cucks give it to invaders and brag about your "free" shit.
>>71071627
Those people are in jail because they have a lower IQ. And this also correlates with welfare usage, as many don't have much drive and are being given free stuff (which there is no incentive to give up by the way). And it's funny, there was a study done giving niggers the best education possible, and you know what? they still scored extremely low. It's not social, it's IQ leading to social. Also, most socialist leaning countries don't have niggers.
>>71064718
so far always the first one
but don't worry real socialism still hasn't been tried yet
>>71068419
>>71069535
Hence the problem with the system where greed is virtue.
>>71069588
>Pay for someone's 4 years of education=allow him to find a good paying job
Yep, of course that's what happens 100% of the time. You just dispense some education money and people turn their lives around - they don't drop out and fall into harmful shit anyway.
>>71069506
>my self worth is based entirely on how much money Jamal makes at burger king
>>71071279
Look at the people in prison. Look at their level of education and their average income before getting jailed. Exclude and rich bankers who've been commiting fraud and you'll see that most of them don't have an education higher than high school and are usually poor.
>>71071702
No one's standard of living will be improved. Less people will be without a job. Goods and services that use lower paid workers will be increased. People who aren't affected by the minimum wage increase will have a lower standard of living now that goods and services cost more. If the cost of labor goes up through artificial means like minimum wages, the quantity demanded of labor will decrease. Again, if your logic worked, then why don't we institute a $20 or $30 minimum wage?
>>71071822
It's interesting, I thought about that, but didn't create the link like that. Another thing you must think about however, is the people starting under $15/hr. How many of them do you have to cut to make up the differences?
>>71064718
I live in a nation which has a federal minimum wage.
It's the former.
>Raising minimum wage increases cost of living and automation. Dollar devalues and people are fucked even more.
Youth unemployment is at a all time high, cost of living is stupidly high and this was only introduced in 2007. Small business struggles to compete with larger business which can afford to hire workers, and most labor is heading overseas to China.
>>71071400
>what you just said is an incentive to not be poor, not to get off welfare
Seriously? Since when do rich people get welfare. IDK how you operate in the U.S. but over here, you cannot get welfare if you make above a certain amount of money. So an incentive to not be poor is enough to get them off of welfare.
>>71064718
>which leads to more demand of goods and thus more jobs.
Not when all production of those goods are outsourced
>>71070669
You're really out of your fucking mind if you think a sizeable amount of people would rather live on meager government dollars than have a real job. Sure, they don't want to work for minimum wage for the same or worse living (worse in most cases), but with a non-pathetic salary most people will work.
>>71071822
A necessary sacrifice. If they get pissy about making only $5 an hour more, then they should have considered the long term lucrativity of their job choice.
Your problem is hardly legitimate. We currently subsidize low paid labor anyways through social programs. I'd rather businesses cut a paycheck to those who don't deserve it, than the government.
>>71064718
My employer recently raised the wage by a BANKBREAKING £1.50 per hour.
We were already understaffed but they're making plans to get rid of as many employees as possible and started piling more work on.
They also took away perks like paid breaks and premium rates for working certain hours, but I highly doubt they'll even attempt to keep pace with inflation so in a few years we'll be back to having the same value of pay with inferior working conditions.
>>71072257
That's exactly what I'm saying, your example isn't concise enough to make your point.
>>71072167
Because $20 and $30 dollars is too much atm.
>>71071928
>say that socialist leaning country have lower crimes
>Tries to name countries that are ridden with poverty, corruption and drugs as an example
Yeah, I guess ill take russia or pakistan as an example of how capitalism is a failure.
Increased demand for goods would be great if you guys didn't import so much shit.
>>71064718
Raising minimum wage increases overall net worth of households but leads to a reduction in employment.
Not everything is completely good completely bad
>>71064718
>Raising minimum wage increases cost of living and automation. Dollar devalues and people are fucked even more.
This. Trust me, I'm an educated black man from the caribbean.
>>71071950
It's funny because the so called "niggers" over here are doing just fine. Many of them are in engineering, business and i knew quite a few in science classes. Guess where most whites are? In arts and music. Give me a fucking break with the race bullshit.
>>71072402
Why is $20 or $30 too much but $15 isn't?
>>71072493
>Russia
>Pakistan
>Free market capitalism
>>71072323
And those people don't end up on welfare. And actually most people will work when their life is danger, AKA when there is no welfare.
>>71072062
Right, so because its not 100% effective, you should just keep doing what you're doing right now, which is obviously not working either.
Automation will happen regardless. The issue is that a low minimum wage will cost us in welfare. People can't even survive.
Universal wages are coming. It's an inevitability so I don't know why you're sweating this shit..
Labor has no bargaining power except at the highest levels. Trade deals, automation, outsourcing, importation of labor both legal and illegal. Unless you're top of your field or in a niche you are replaceable.
Raising minimum wage isn't going to change that.
>>71072597
This is anecdotal fallacy, I am referring to studies. While you are committing an illogical fallacy trying to make your personal experiences the majority and the truth. You also didn't refute my argument.
>>71072674
>no competition
>implying ANYONE will go for technical jobs
>>71072341
Its not their problem its my problem as the business owner. Thanks for being enthusiastic about enriching large corporations that can handle the shock of a doubling min wage and giving the fuck you middle finger to small business.
We will continue to subsides low paid labor through social programs, they will just now get $15 + food stamps and housing assistance. You are a nut if you think wage increase will trigger a social program decrease.
Government is wasting time funneling people into college to get degrees that have no value. Then dumping low skilled workers with massive debt onto the market.
Once again government intervention has created the problem we are in.
>>71070868
>implying they won't just buy drugs/untaxable items
>>71072323
>You're really out of your fucking mind if you think a sizeable amount of people would rather live on meager government dollars than have a real job
Can you come down to Atlanta? I need to show you something.
>>71072674
Universal income cannot be paid for without a huge reduction in the cost of living.
>>71071945
>le cuck meme and edgy
This is why noone will ever take rightwing young adults seriously. Your all huge baby faggots that are right wing specifically for identity reasons to get respect from your redneck uncle or whatever. It doesn't help that you guys are spergs that jack off to anime girls and are retard xD edgy. There is no secret club you faggots are as easy to read as a open book and its pathetic.
>>71072600
>gonna name me countries like mexico and Venezuela or cuba
>gonna tell me its the same as democratic socialist countries such as european countries, or socialist leaning capitalist countries such as canada
You're not very bright are you? The whole reason why i told you to not name me 3rd world shitholes is for the same reason why russia or pakistan cannot be used to argue against american's capitalism
>>71072828
Like I said, if the only alternative is min wage employment then it's understandable because you can get more out of welfare than min wage.
>>71072600
>Why is...
I can only assume from economic calculations that determined the yearly salary essential for a living wage. You can't 'live' below a certain amount. (apartment, food, utilities, small bit of disposable to stimulate economy--by buying booze I'm sure).
Ideally you want that number to be a little bit above low-as-possible, so you don't have to increase it rapidly in the future.
>Listening to economists
>>71064718
Neither, it just makes fewer jobs. It is not like payroll budgets are going to change. Double the minimum wage, half the number of minimum wage jobs. Yes, it really is that simple. Do you liberals even make it past algebra?
>>71072864
>>>/r/cuckold
Fuck off, Berniefag.
>>71072990
All of those european countries you hold dearly made their wealth off of free market capitalism though. They're slowly dwindling as well, and their immigration policy is speeding their deaths up.
>>71073153
They believe that FREE SHIT makes people work harder.
>>71065116
>If they don't increase the welfare limit, that means the poor will work less so they can stay on welfare..
is that what happend in seatle san francisco and philly?
>>71064718
The latter point assumes that the cost of living will remain static even as the many low-paying jobs become more expensive for the employer to maintain. Ask yourself, is this a reasonable assumption?
>>71073153
They think if you pay poor people more that they economy will grow more quickly.
But if you pay people more you employ less people. Especially in our lossy economy where money flows largely up and out, but not down.
>>71072777
Jobs are going to get fucking decimated. You can't stop it. Sky News here had a report last week from some DNA testing lab and it was like some crazy fucking Tony Stark shit - eight machines shifting and moving and analysing samples - basically putting lab rats out of employment. And it's only going to get worse. People won't need to vote for redistribution - technology will basically force us into it.
>>71064718
What every Bernie fag fails to realize, is that at that wage, all the poorfags are going to be making to much money to qualify for gov't assistance programs they have been using. No more free healthcare, or subsidized housing. No more food stamps, EBT, WIC, or welfare checks. Once that comes to light, the chimpout will be epic.
>>71067361
>>Boeing and a few other big guys saw the writing on the wall and left just in time
wow boeing was paying minimum wage?
>>71069387
Is it me or this is actually going to kill the middle class?
Just adding more people to the lower class under the guise of "fairness".
Pretty crafty when you think about it.
>>71067361
>>Some unions that 'fought for 15' are now petitioning the city to reduce the wage, because their jobs are on the line and going to eithe
citation plz
>>71072857
To begin with, yes, but I suppose the endgame is we eventually end up like the society in Star Trek where tech is so advanced and cheap we can basically sit around all fucking day wanking if we want.
The second world happen for a few months than the first world happen and fuck up everything
>>71071950
>Those people are in jail because they have a lower IQ.
You gotta be stupid to end up in jail and that is true to some point, but a big chunk of them are there not because of low IQ but because they tried to steal some food or money to get by. For fuck sakes, there are even documentaries out there about people getting jailed for not paying fines. That's right they've been put in jail because they didn't have money.
>This correlates with welfare usage
No dipshit, welfare usage correlates with the amount of money you have.
>There was a study done giving niggers the best education possible and they still scored extremely low
Just because a few people didn't do well in class doesn't mean that it applies to everyone. I know quite a few white people who dropped out of highschool. What do you make out of that?
>Also most socialist leaning countries don't have nigger
That's right we don't have niggers. We have black people, the reason why the U.S. has niggers it's because you created them yourselves with years of discrimination and exploitation.
You really gotta get past the stupid idea only black people and minorities are on welfare, and are the only one which will be able to take advantage of social benefits.
Why does Bernie look like a demonic old Jew in all of his photos?
>Have busted my ass working bullshit jobs for almost ten years now, only about two or three years ago did I finally get a good office job that pays the bills and keeps a roof over my head in a good neighborhood with no roommates required
>Spoiled ass SJW friend gets his first job in retail because SURPRISE you can do fuck and all with a English degree with a minor in gender studies
>Worked retail for almost five years alone, have told him stories for years about how terrible customers are and how much the work sucks only to be told "nah you're lying" and that was the end of the discussion
>He makes it two weeks before he quits, doesn't even give a notice, just quits like a bitch
>Now he's screaming for $15 an hour and/or basic income, whichever one he can get first
>Tell him that would make his life even harder
>He continues to be defiant and tell me I'm just a dummy meanie doo doo head
>I make $17, I ask him if I should get a raise too
>No! That'll ruin the econ..
>He goes offline
Some day these retards will learn.
I'm not even mad he did that, I'm mad he's too stubborn and proud to tell me "hey anon, you were right, and I'm sorry."
iPhone 6S is expensive as fuck and is already produced by people making $5 a day. If Sanders forces companies to hire US citizens and pay unskilled workers $15/hour, I hope millenials really enjoy paying $8,000 for the next iPhone.
>>71067361
>>Almost all investment in the outer boroughs; Brooklyn, Staten Island, Queens and the Bronx has stopped
lol what?
>>71072668
K-12 is already free and regularly churning out delinquents. What you're proposing is more of the same.
>>71064718
The more money that is printed, the less value it has.
>>71064718
the first one
>>71071945
>fund terrorists
>happy that those terrorirsts kill people
>creates mass amount of refugees
>complains about refugees
You just showed your intelligence there buddy.
>>71073115
>economic calculations that determined the yearly salary essential for a living wage
You're talking out of your asshole. The purpose of that question is to point out that if you're correct and that hiking the minimum wage up will increase people's standard of living, then it should work on every level. Also, there is no concrete "living wage." And even if there were, minimum wages make it harder to make a "living wage" by destroying competition and reducing employment.
You've yet to refute a single point I made against your claim that minimum wage increases improve society as a whole and is for the greater good, so I'm going to assume you're baiting me.
>>71073297
Those are places where $15 is barely enough.
>>71073652
>germany: dead
>sweden: dead
>UK: dead
dem refugees tho
>>71073200
Read what I said before. Socialist leaning countries. Most of those countries are still capitalistic. Canada is a capitalist country. I never said capitalism is bad. All I'm saying is that you gotta get your head out of your ass and start giving the people a decent living and chance at succeeding. This will be beneficial to everyone.
raising the minimum wage would mean machines take the place of workers or having to spend $14 on a big mac and since they are getting paid the same as someone who drives an ambulance either everyone in the country gets a raise meaning the minimum wage has to be raised again or people working in stressful higher end jobs quit to go work at starbucks
>>71064718
You are coffee shop owner
Now has to pay double for wages
will you fire half your staff, keep price the same but with shitty service?
or would you raise the price 20% and fire some staff
or double the price and keep all staff and maintain service levels?
>>71073467
If automation keeps making human workers obsolete it should also lower the cost of living.
However, there are a number of things that could completely fuck up western society and prevent this from continuing.
>>71073526
He's quite photogenic.
I personally am more interested in the eventual rural migration in the great state of Washington.
>>71067361
>tfw Seattle was already extremely expensive before the hike
>>71073512
. I noticed a trend about reddit is that they absolutely adore when a black person acts normal and civil. What is up with that weird subliminal nigger worship?
>>71064718
Let me put it this way.
A majority of Americans can't handle a 500$ emergency, be it a surprise medical bill or a car part.
Do you really think that the people on minimum wage would spend it, or do you think they'd save and hoard it?
>>71064718
What if the purpose of increasing minimum wage is actually to encourage automation to further advance and validate the socialist agenda?
>>71073803
>>71073820
>>71073752
The only one i'll give you is germany. And it's because of their stupid leaders who opened their borders to savages. Before the refugee crisis they were doing pretty well.
>>71064718
Adjusted for inflation, the US minimum wage has never been above $11. The one time it reached $11 (1968?), it was reduced by law, a very unusual action.
Minimum wage should be recalibrated to keep up with inflation. Pushing it this far up will put the whole country in uncharted territory.
Increases at the municipal and state level suggest that businesses will either close, move, work their remaining employees harder and/or give their workers fewer hours.
>>71064718
depends on where you are in the US ... urban areas the federal minimum is not enough to live off of ... in fucking po-dunk Kansas you're good to go. this is one of those regulations that makes sense to let cities and counties regulate. but know state and local officials seem to be more interested in passing laws regulating where people stick their dicks and ensuring their brand of Jesus brainwashing is taught in science text books.
>>71064718
raising minimum wage will absolutely not lead to more jobs.
it will increase automation. it will increase unemployment. it will increase buying capacity of people who keep their jobs and get a raise and fuck over literally everyone else.
>>71064718
Both with the latter first. Everyone will have more cash to spend which'll increase demand. However, once the shops and markets adjust to the demand (aka. raising prices), the money devalues because there's more of it in circulation, but it's no more valuable than what it was before the increase in minimum wage. There's pretty much a grace period where an increase to the minimum wage would be potentially impactful, but it's slim.
However, what you have to take into account is that nobody with savings is being compensated for having their cash pile's being devalued, so the increase in spending and demand is really coming out of the pocket of savers.
>>71073796
Of course they're capitalistic. Their wealth that they achieved that allowed them to go into socialism was under free market capitalism, not under socialist leaning capitalism.
>All I'm saying is that you gotta get your head out of your ass and start giving the people a decent living and chance at succeeding. This will be beneficial to everyone.
We have the same goals I assume then. If our goal is to ensure that more people have money to spend on necessities, then the solution is unfettering the market.
Wal-Mart has no reason to raise the wages for their workers. That is because the government has interfered so heavily into the market that Wal-Mart doesn't have any competition. Minimum wages hurt competition, Wal-mart, Mc'Donalds and other corporate monoliths can take any regulation or wage increase you throw at them. It's their competitors that can't. You're creating a hospitable environment for big corporations.
>>71064718
>raise minimum wage to $15/hr
>take half back to pay for new taxes
>>71064718
i think 15 is too much and it should be more like 10 or 11
>>71064718
Neither. Economics has this question answered. Higher minimum wage = less demand for labor and increased supply of labor = fewer people get paid the higher wage, and more people want to work for the wage = unemployment.
It will just force automation into the workplace at an even faster rate.
Jobs?
Over 47% could be automated today.
>>71074208
I should clarify, when I mean demand in this sense, I mean quantity demanded, and similarly for supply. Just to be technically correct.
>>71064718
the first one
at the end the minimum wage is just the basic measure of income, if you increase it then you would buy exactly the same you did before because the prices will rise automatically
Serious question while on this topic.
What will happen to the people now making $15/h?
Is this going to kill off a good chunk of the middle class? Was this his plan all along?
>>71064718
let me get this clear.
>salary is raised to Y
>prices are raised the same amount
enough memes is enough, /pol/.
>>71073512
I was only talking about niggers because you were talking about niggers. I like how you're trying to push this thing that I'm racist, not just stating published facts and misrepresenting my argument in the process (another illogical fallacy). However, wage does correlate with IQ. Low IQ = higher chance with being on welfare.
here:
https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/02/06/correlations-of-iq-with-income-and-wealth/
>I know quite a few white people who dropped out of highschool. What do you make out of that?
They have a lack of drive and will go on welfare because of it.
>it's because you created them yourselves with years of discrimination and exploitation.
What the fuck? do you think IQ is completely social? they came out of Africa like that buddy (also government welfare destroying incentive for low iq people doesn't help either).
Look up Milton Friedman on youtube--he explains why minimum wage doesn't work. The better solution is basic income, which is to give each person who falls below a certain threshold the difference between what they earn and whatever the basic income minimum is. I'm sure you'd have to implement various schemes to avoid creating welfare cliffs there, but this is much better overall than minimum wage.
>>71074305
people making $15 now will make $15 tomorrow while the price of everything goes up.
>>71067361
>Republican ejaculation all over muh face
This retard made most of this up.
>>71072811
>Government is wasting time funneling people into college to get degrees that have no value. Then dumping low skilled workers with massive debt onto the market.
I agree. College should be more like Europe, where you might not even be able to take advanced courses if you did shit in high school.
Eventually that bubble will burst and plebs will learn (it's not actually a economic bubble technical, but you get the idea).
>Its not their problem its my problem as the business owner. Thanks for being enthusiastic about enriching large corporations that can handle the shock of a doubling min wage and giving the fuck you middle finger to small business.
Yes corporations can most certainly handle the shock. There are a couple outcomes
1. The failure of small businesses leads to unrest in communities and anti-corporation/government sentiments from envy/blame respectively. This will cause more advantageous candiates to be elected (probably Trump or BurnedKnee esque ones). This will be better for all, so you'll just take a fall for the benefit of American society. A pity.
2. Due to demand, small businesses will get a boat load of tax exemptions/subsidies, which allows you to compete on more equal footing.
>>71073683
I will concede that in an ideal world, the minimum wage would be set based on the State of the store/whatever, since that is were the poverty levels are determined. However, if we do that than obviously all non-franchise companies will move operations there. So, we have to use national numbers.
The current system is non-ideal and promotes both corporate and employees leeching off social benefits. The new change will, at worst, damage all parties involved, which would be a karmic punishment. Best case, it improves a few lives.
>>71064718
you forgot the option where workers get their hours cut in half to make up for the raises their employers are forced to give to all of them.
>>71074267
>Force automation
This isn't a bad thing unless we don't adapt to it. It was an inevitability anyways.
>>71074086
We definitely do have the same goals, but differet methods of achieving it. Your method doesn't work, all it does is creating a bigger and bigger wage gap.
You have tried your method of unfettering the market. Where did it bring you? Only a handful of people get all the money. The same few people who bribe your politicians, to the point were they actually managed to make them pass bills which makes it even easier to bribe them. The idea of rich people making money and passing it down to the poor is great on paper, but in real life, the rich people are greedy, all they do is keep their money to themselves.
Your unfettered market made sure that the price you're currently paying for different services such as healthcare or education to be as much as 10x higher than other countries. It made sure that most people, even those working up to 70 hours per week and far from being bums could barely get by. This is what the free market did. It doesn't work which is the reason why it should be changed. Changed to something better such as a mix between socialism and capitalism, like canada or european countries.
>>71074403
That's what I mean, was it a very clever Jewish ploy to actually expand the lower class, getting America one step closer to communism?
I mean, this fucks over every 9/5 worker who is not currently on minimum wage. HARD
>>71070915
You funny....
>>71074734
I think it's just an unwillingness to accept that socialist economic theories don't work in the way they predicted.
All they have left is "it isn't socialist enough to work yet!"
You stupid fucking conservative assholes don't get it.
What do rich people do with their money? They hoard it.
What do poor people do with their money?
They spend it.
So raising the minimum wage redistributes money from the rich people to the poor people who will spend, spend, spend and stimulate the economy!
t. Bernie Math 101
>>71073607
Where's that located?
>>71074976
>why didn't Donald Trump just put his money in a savings account instead of building shit and employing people lol what a retard
>>71074672
>You have tried your method of unfettering the market.
When? Inb4 you say Ronald Reagan, who increased taxes multiple times, as well as capital gains taxes, and corporate taxes, without tackling government spending and regulations on businesses.
>The same few people who bribe your politicians, to the point were they actually managed to make them pass bills which makes it even easier to bribe them
Lobbying is a problem of big government. If government was not powerful, there would be nothing to gain from buying it out.
>Your unfettered market made sure that the price you're currently paying for different services such as healthcare or education to be as much as 10x higher than other countries
Not true, our healthcare is expensive because state regulations on healthcare make it impossible to compete between states, which hurts competition and drives prices higher. Not to mention the ACA which increased demand for care, raising the premiums of health insurance.
I have no doubt in my mind that if we unfettered the market and lowered taxes that it would have a short term negative effect on the economy. But in the long term it will be much better than what we have now.
>>71066987
That's not a problem, that's a benefit
>>71064718
>Raising minimum wage increasing buying capacity, which leads to more demand of goods and thus more jobs.
No.
Raising the minimum wage is fucking retarded. Having a minimum wage at all actually, is fucking retarded.
Suppose you have no job experience and you're trying to land your first job. YOU'RE FUCKED. No one wants to hire a $15/hr burger flipper who has no experience doing anything. Minimum wage makes it illegal for you to work anything less. Sometimes experience is worth more than the money itself.
What do you think a business that hires minimum wage workers is going to do when they have to pay more for labour? They're going to hire less workers who will work lesser hours. They will spend little time training, and make employees work harder. Raising the wage PER HOUR isn't going to do fucking shit to help poor Deshawndra Jackson feed her three bastard kids because she'll be at home 5 days a week cashing welfare checks.
A wage is the price of labour, and should be treated like a commodity you can sell yourself.
>>71075169
I know, right?
If he simply invested all of his money in Google before the IPO he would be so much richer! XD
>>71064718
Raising minimum wage increases the cost on businesses, so to save money they're funding shilling campaigns and convincing retards that higher wages are bad for them.
If wages were tied to something like productivity, as they should be, then present minimum wage would be somewhere around $20-$30/hr in the US.
You are all being fleeced and fucked over enormously. $15/hr min wage doesn't even increase enough to counter inflation properly. Your wages aren't even tied to fucking inflation, let alone productivity! How do you morons fail to see how hard you're getting fucked in the ass?
You will never get people out of poverty by paying them more to work at walmart.
>>71074351
>Wage does correlate with IQ
No it doesnt. You can be a genius born in a poor family. If that family can barely feed you, cannot even put you through college, you will be highly disadvantaged compared to a retard born in a rich family.
>i was onlty talking about niggers because you were talking about niggers, like how you're trying to push this thing that i'm a racist.
I wasn't talking about "niggers", you did. And calling them "niggers" sounds pretty racist to me.
>they have a lack of drive and will go on welfare because of it.
Not true. Every person I know who dropped out, usually dropped out because of the environment they lived in. Do you see many rich people dropping out of high school and ending up in gangs? And I'm not talking about dropping out of university such as bill gate,steve jobs or other billionaires. They got into university, where they dropped to pursue other things. Not the same thing at all. Most of the people who dropped out had problems at home, and kind of poor. The environment in which a kid grows up has a huge effect on him.
>Do you think IQ is completely social
I am not talking about IQ dipshit, read the above. The way they keep getting discriminated affects the environment they grow up in. There are a lot of reasons for someone dropping out besides IQ. That somehow you think that IQ is that relevant is a joke.
>>71074976
I almost thought you were serious.
>>71075408
>Raising the wage PER HOUR isn't going to do fucking shit to help poor Deshawndra Jackson feed her three bastard kids because she'll be at home 5 days a week cashing welfare checks.
Das bcoz we be suffrin sysdemik raycisms
>>71075465
>If wages were tied to something like productivity, as they should be
That's completely retarded. It's called technology moron; people aren't magically getting more efficient all by themselves.
>>71075408
>we won't hire you since you don't have experience, 15 dollars an hour is way too much
>if you want experience, we have an opening for an unpaid intern
>>71064718
The notion that raising the minimum wage will create more money for the average worker to spend is invalid as an argument for the minimum wage. Businesses have a single capital fund for all their expenses: labor and capital alike. When they are forced to pay more for labor, they are able to pay less for capital, so the purchasing power of the businesses that make capital and their employees decreases. In essence, the minimum wage subsidizes the consumer goods area of the market at the expense of the purchasing power of the market for capital.
>>71075702
>unpaid
>now Deshawndra Jackson is working for nothing just at an attempt for a minimum wage job
>>71065412
This is bullshit.
You need to work an hour of minimum wage to buy a coffee.
Doubling the current rate will not have anywhere near an equal rise in product worth. At most, things will rise 10%.
In Washington state, where they already raised it to 15, the average price of goods has actually gone down.
>>71071045
You realize that the supply of people that can run a billion dollar company is limited right? You realize that any monkey can sweep floors right?
>>71075824
Economy saved, now we'll be able to compete with Chinese sweat shops! Those fucking chinks can't beat free labor!
>>71075900
>The notion that raising the minimum wage will create more money for the average worker to spend is invalid as an argument for the minimum wage. Businesses have a single capital fund for all their expenses: labor and capital alike. When they are forced to pay more for labor, they are able to pay less for capital, so the purchasing power of the businesses that make capital and their employees decreases. In essence, the minimum wage subsidizes the consumer goods area of the market at the expense of the purchasing power of the market for capital.
>>71070294
>technical
Pointing out the most basic shit is now "getting technical on someone" according to you. Then again, you're a fucking Canadian so your sins are forgiven.
>>71075502
God damn you fucking faggot. The science was settled a long time ago. Niggers are violent due to genes. They lack the IQ of fucking gorillas.
Why the fuck are you even here? "UUUHHH UHHH UHH ENVIRONMENT"
Ever thought that "environment" is directly related to your parents IQ.
Ohshit.jpg
What if, now i might sound crazy here. IQ has been proven heritable.
Wait a minute? IT IS. Fuck.
Seriously faggot kill yourself.. you are an embarrassment to our nation.
You bitch about a symptom and claim its the cause. While burying your head in the sand when the cause is right there for you to figure out. Its a never ending shit cycle of bad genes and a shitty environment compounding each other over generations that cause the problem.
Also the fact that you know, the races are made up of different sub-species of human.
>>71074672
The only reason politicians are worth bribing is because they allocate a good 40% of the country's GDP, and have the power to override people's economic decisions with no justification - that's what corporations are purchasing when they lobby.
The more you bloat government with "free" services, the more of this you'll get. Worst of all it's what businesses HAVE to do to stay competitive. You can't dedicate yourself 100% to serving your individual clients, when that only gives you access to 60% of their money. You have to dedicate resources to hustling the other 40% out of the government too, and that's never clean.
>>71075946
That's wrong actually.
I mean it looks nice on paper. All official and what not, but the way our businesses are currently operating they can easily double their wages for their lowest employees.
>>71070915
No, it means that, while what you do requires far more responsibility and effort than Joe McBurgerflipper, you'll now only be making a few dollars more an hour than he. Isn't socialism great?
>>71075191
>if the governmet was not powerful...
There you go again, the idea that a GOVERNment should not govern. This is just not true. The reason why they get bribed has nothing to do with a big government. It has to do with a corrupt government. A government which has this idea that things will fix by themselves, and don't crack down on corporations which are literally bribing politicians. You cannot have an unfettered market. Government intervention is necessary to prevent corporations from doing what ever they want. A government that completely controls the market is as bad. It needs to be a balance between both. Do you really think that unfettered access is the way to go? It will always end in the same way, big companies will put small companies out of buisiness, and then raise their prices. If there is an unfettered market, the following will happen:
1.Both companies will compete until one of them win and the other is out of the race. Once that happens, they will go back to raising their prices.
2. A group of companies team up and start controlling the markte price. This allows the group to directly put out of buisiness any new competitors. This is where government control should be present. To prevent such practices.
Like I said, A mix of both is necessary, the idea that you have to either be 100% capitalist or 100% socialist is stupid. Why not take what's best from both sides.
>>71075118
greenpoint
>>71064718
>Raising minimum wage increasing buying capacity, which leads to more demand of goods and thus more jobs.
This is what happened every other time raising the minimum wage has been tried.
Well the issue is if you raise $15/hr for min wage, you really push out the people who need the money. If its 7.25/hr to some degree a minimum wage employer will be indifferent between two types of people. Lets take McDonalds for instance and lets say for arguments sake that there are two types of people they can hire. An upper-middle class 16 year old, who is in high school, and who will most likely go onto college to earn more. And a lower-class 16 y/o high school dropout who actually needs the income to live or support his family at that point. At 7.25/hr McDonalds is mostly indifferent between the caliber of employees it is employing. When the wage is raised 15/hr, jobs cost more for employers so the supply shrinks and the more qualified and ambitious make it into the job while the people who need it, are left without one. Left without a job in an economy that is inflating fucks them over. And for people who are pulling out loans now for stuff are about to be royally fucked by rising interest rates because honestly it cant go any lower. It's just a not a good time to try to increase the wage rate.
>>71076097
>the way our businesses are currently operating they can easily double their wages for their lowest employees
[citation needed]
>>71064718
It only creates noticeable unemployment if the minimum wage is over the market wage. Many Americans already make more than that as only 4 percent of Americans earn the minimum wage. The buying capacity thing is complete bullshit. No one knows how to spend money expect the owner as they say. And if you buy something that money is no longer yours. A person can invest the money privately in say a company or something so increasing buying capacity for workers artificially is a stupid idea.
>>71076326
IT literally won't change anything.
It hasn't in any of the state's where McDonald's has to comply with $15 minimum wage.
>>71066032
>$15/hr is about 28k/year for a full-time worker, pre-tax.
No it isn't.
>>71076329
Are you honestly saying that if McDonald's was forced to pay $15 an hour, they would not be able to?
Oh wait, they do in new york, and Washington state... and literally nothing has changed there.
>>71076401
>4 percent of Americans earn the minimum wage.
sure, but how many people earn between 8-15/hr? suddenly youre affecting quite a large percentage of workers. we're not talking about a $0.20 increase
>>71076097
>post detailed economics explaining why the increasing purchasing power argument is fallacious
>"that's wrong, actually, we can raise the minimum wage. My argument is that we can raise the minimum wage. Your argument is debunked, QED.
>>71066032
>$15/hr
>full-time worker
pick one
>>71076507
They do in Seattle, and the New York state law hasn't gone into affect.
>Are you honestly saying that if McDonald's was forced to pay $15 an hour, they would not be able to?
But what if they were forced to pay that to all American workers? I don't know. Show me numbers that shows they can afford it. I'm sure many, many small businesses couldn't.
>>71075900
But it's not 15 dollars an hour in Washington state, it's currently 9.47 you dummy.
>>71064718 (OP)
Well, desu, raising the minimum wage to 30k a year would cause wild inflation and wage increases for non-minimum workers, and would basically wipe out a lot of people's debt. Goods would increase in price, but anybody that currently has a mortgage, or car note, or credit card debt, or student loans would be off the hook for cheap.
#yolo
>>71076711
>Mcdonalds, a multi billion dollar business
>a small business
K
>>71076129
>Both companies will compete until one of them win and the other is out of the race. Once that happens, they will go back to raising their prices.
This is not reality. There are not just two companies running an entire market. There are substitutes, and alternatives. Free market monopolies don't exist. If Wal-mart was in a free market and dominating, and they tried profiteering they would lose market share, public opinion, and someone would come in to provide competition or a substitute.
>A group of companies team up and start controlling the markte price. This allows the group to directly put out of buisiness any new competitors. This is where government control should be present. To prevent such practices.
This isn't reality either. Collusion between companies is a real thing, but does not last long for the same reasons in my last point. Collusion is worse when it's protected by the government, like with what happened during the gilded age.
>There you go again, the idea that a GOVERNment should not govern.
Government should stay out of the economy and provide national defense, justice, and legislative procedures. Big government IS corrupt government because big government only exists to tend to special interests.
>Why not take what's best from both sides.
Because socialism is based on utopic ideas that can't exist in a world with scarcity.
>>71077135
>wah big businesses are evil they should pay more because they hurt my feelings
Can you find the numbers or not?
>>71066032
>he said we......................................................
Can we put to rest the
>b-but small businesses
Most small businesses do not pay the minimum wage or anywhere near it.
Rather, it's the biggest corporations that tend to doll put the 7.25 to its workers
It's corporate greed. Plain and simple.
Its because we have this horrible system that says "it's only a good year if you did better than last year" which is a retarded concept and why we every major successful company has to lay people off after they have had a few good years and file for bankruptcy because even though 2 years ago profits went up 300%, unless they stay there or get even better, it's a "bad year" and it's now time to do cuts. Even though you have people at the top getting paid millions of dollars at any given time.
>>71076039
You're wrong. I'm pretty sure you're trolling at this point and this is bait but I feel this vitriolic statement deserves an apt reply.
I myself have several African (no Africa is not a fucking nation, it's a continent split up into different nations with different cultures with the largest amount of different languages) friends. I personally know 2 Ghanaians, 1 Ugandan, and a Nigerian (not a princess). They're well-motivated people who came from good backgrounds and are currently doing well at Uni. One of them just got into medical school and another is finishing his engineering degree alongside myself. They would not have had this opportunity without the backgrounds they grew up in.
You statement that IQ is heritable is correct. However, the environment surrounding a person largely determines how that person ends up. If one's parents can afford to throw $3,000,000 at Harvard, their child can go there as long as he/she has a pulse. However, those in lower-income households have to make do with scraping up cash and going to less respectable universities because they literally can't afford higher education. In the worst case, they finish up high school and don't have the capability to move elsewhere outside the community they grew up in. This can lead to crime to make money (which is as always, the goal).
I won't speak to you about your lack of civility because it is useless. Your lack of proper pronunciation, elementary school level vocabulary, and dated viewpoint suggests that you are a sweaty, Caucasian, male, and almost certainly...a Trump supporter.
Good day to you ser.
>>71077486
>Most small businesses do not pay the minimum wage or anywhere near it.
[citation needed]
>>71077258
You don't have to be a raging commie faggot to know that big corporations are not to be trusted and will nickel and dime you to oblivion if they get the chance.
I'm guessing you're still on your parents cell plan. When you're off it, try to go buy a phone. Tell me that they honestly tried to save you as much money as possible.
>>71073356
They think they will keep their food stamps, housing assistance, and utilities assistance in addition to making twice as much at McDonald's.
>Berniefag, I....
>>71064718
I'll tell you exactly what will happen and it's neither of them
>raising the minimum wage affects the lowest paid workers
>these are unskilled workers
>they become EVEN MORE economically unviable compared to replacing them with computers, robots and otherwise automated machines like self checkouts
>people lose their job left right and center
>unemployment spikes
>prices still rise
>people are even more fucked
