So help me /pol
What scientifically proveable hypothesis could you fabricate about muslim integration or socialpolitics which affect muslim integration?
>>71014779
There is no such thing as muslim integration
>>71014856
/thread
>>71014856
This. The fact that they are Muslim, which is not an ethnicity but a totalitarian system, prevents any form of integration.
>>71014779
Read hbdchick on clannishness.
>>71014856
Muslim disintegration is a thing though, when they blow themselves up.
>>71014779
I don't want them.
The more they integrate, the more difficult would be the removal.
So none, thanks
>>71015037
Straya with the bantz as usual
>>71014779
>What scientifically proveable hypothesis could you fabricate about muslim integration or socialpolitics which affect muslim integration?
>Thesis 1, or on the incompatibility of cultures
Premise 1: Western morals are based on Christianity
Premise 1a: Christianity is a religion that promotes forgiveness, praying for those who persecute you and non-violence except in cases of self-defense
Premise 1b: Christianity is inherrently an apolitical religion that inherrently expresses no doctrine for political affairs as long as they don't violate Christianity's values
Premise 2: Muslims base their morals on Muslim values
Premise 2b: Muslim is an expansionist religion that promotes the use of violence against unbelievers until they convert to Islam or they (Christians and Jews, at least) pay the Jizya and feel themselves subdued
Premise 2b: Islam is an inherrently political religion that comes with a set of secular/state/political laws that any Muslim must obey
Conclusion: Western society and Muslims that actually follow the commandments of their religion are incompatible
>Thesis 2, or the Habsburg effect
Premise 1: Cosanguination negatively impacts the intelligence of the offspring, among others
Premise 2: Low intelligence is correlated with, among others, overrepresentation in crime and low productivity
Premise 3: The Islamic world has some of the highest rates of consanguination in the world
Conclusion: Muslim immigrants are unintelligent, unproductive, criminal and an all-round drag on any civilized society.
It may not be scientific in the STEM sense, but it is logically/philosophically sound: all premises can be proven or falsified, and the conclusion logically follows form its premises.
Even if you're one of those spineless middle ground cowards who only wants Muslims who aren't actually Muslim, you still have to deal with the fact that many of them are fucking inbreds.
>>71014779
Secularism was attempted once in Iran under the Twelvers, but this has since been totally wiped out by foreign meddling. Hitler actually played a role in modernizing them.
Another notable attempt was in Syria under pretty much the same conditions but with Alawites instead of Twelvers. It is also currently being wiped off the map by foreign meddling.
Really the main problem is that the Donmeh Jews in the major Sunni countries have led the religion for decades and they stomp out any attempts to abandon the faith to ensure they have good slaves. If you know about the history of Islam you'd know they are this way by nature, but the Assyrians (Iran and Syria) have been trying to soften up the religion and make it more like Christianity basically since Muhammad died.
Other notable Shia countries like Iran/Syria were Iraq and Lebanon, but you know what happened to them.
>>71015946
The first one is actually really great. I have no knowledge in the field of medicine or genetics so I can't say anything about the second.
How would you describe your first hypothesis in a socialpolitics frame? So do you think is it translateable to state orchastrated social/integrational programs?
So for example: We suspect that programs which highlightes western culture are better at integrating muslims than those that prefer other fields.
>>71016462
The question isn't entirely clear to me so I hope I give a useful answer, but you're asking for a clear program which would increase the ability of Western cultures to integrate Muslims, right?
In that case, my idea is compatible to the Old French idea before they went full multiculti: there is no such thing as multiculturalism, or integration. Only assimilation works. You're Hungarian, your people know from experience the clusterfuck and inefficient political systems that arise in an empire without a clear majority group, a clear dominant religion and a clear dominant culture/language. You were never Austrians, you were Hungarians with an Austrian emperor. Same for the Poles, Bosnians and Italians in the empire: they were Poles, Bosnians and Italians ruled over by an Austrian, they were never Austrians.
When we simply allow Muslims to enter and hope to "integrate" them, that's what we create: a situation where Muslims reside in, for example, the Netherlands but never become truly Dutch: just Muslims ruled over by a Dutch government.
To ensure assimilation, which is the only viable system, I believe three factors are neccessary:
1. A patriotic population
2. A flourishing population
3. A very small and spread out Muslim minority
The first creates people who are proud of their country, want to preserve it and are 'missionary' of its values. Today we cannot have this because we live in a "post-nationalist" age where we, as that ZDF parody song states, are "proud of not being proud". If we ourselves do not love our nation, how can we expect foreigners to love it?
The second may appear unimportant but it is of fundamental importance. First of all it eliminates the need for immigrants. The floodgates being thrown open can no longer be justified with "muh shrinking working class". Any immigrants who are taken in are either taken in because of their extremely specialised skillsets (such as doctors or scientists) or because we want to.
cont.
>>71017263
High native birth rates also destroy the threat of a displacement of the native population by the foreigners as the native population will grow fast enough to "absorb" the foreign population. More about that later.
Thirdly, the Muslim minority (or any foreign minority for that matter) must be spread out. For example non-Western foreigners are 'only' about 10% of the Dutch population. However in all of our largest cities (Rotterdam, Amsterdam, The Hague, maybe Utrecht and Gouda too) they're around 50% of the population. And in certain quarters they're even 80%-100% of the population. They're so concentrated in their own ghettoes that they will never assimilate. However, think what happens if this exact same number of non-Western immigrants were equally spread across all provinces of the country and across all cities of a certain size. They would have very little contact with those of their old cultures and be more or less forced to interact with the native majority, and eventually become more like them if they want to succeed in life.
Back to that "absorption" point: foreigners who live almost exclusively among the natives are more likely to marry and reproduce with a native. Race mixing makes /pol/ froth in blind rage, but under certain circumstances this can be profitable to the West. Let's say four Somali Muslims arrive in a small city in Twente. Two developments are possible
1
They form pairs, have Somali offspring that are raised Muslim, their children marry eachother and you end up with third generation Somalis who are raised with Somali values (including Islam).
2
All four of them engage in exogamy and give birth to half-Somali, half-Dutch offspring growing up with a mix of Somali and Dutch culture. These also marry natives and give birth to 3/4 Dutch offspring which will, both genetically and culturally, be closer to the Dutch than Somalis. One more generation and there's nothing Somali about them: they were "absorbed"
>>71014779
it's impossible to integrate if they remain Islamic.
religion is a tool which keeps people from integrating.
That is why we have multiculturalism.
>>71017584
Yes. This is what I came up with, too. I could argue that those programs would be eventually successful which aim to abolish marginalisation (both econonomicaly and socialy), because marginalisation leads to extremism.
And this way it doesn't really matter if I don't have data for every group of muslim (so the poor, the middle-class) and data for their opinions about extremism because I'm sure there are papers about how marginalisation breeds extremism in a general sense.
Don't know if that makes any sense to you, I'm fairly tired and stressful so maybe I don't articulate myself enough.
>>71018219
>because marginalisation leads to extremism
"Extremism" may be the word I hate the most. If people say that "moderate" X or "moderate" Y are fine but "extremists" are the problem, what they are effectively trying to hide behind nice words is "X or Y only becomes a problem when you actually believe it". In the Netherlands we have many, many minorities and minority religions. For example, in cities like Rotterdam we have a large Hindu minority (a lot of Indians moved to Suriname in the 1800s after slavery was abolished, most stayed, now many of them move to the Netherlands) and I have yet to see or even hear of an instance of Hindu extremism, even though they are no less or more marginalized (I'd argue not at all as everyone has equal opportunities in a system where education is state financed) than Muslims.
The problem with Muslims is not radicalism, it's Islam. Sure, some Muslims are like our "Christians": They only go to mass on Christmas, never touched a Bible but call themselves Christians. However, once in a while a Christian will touch a Bible, and once in a while a Muslim will touch the Qu'ran and Hadith. And that's where the problems start: Islam itself.
Any "moderate" Muslim who honestly studies Islam is left with three options:
1. Become "radicalized" as their Scriptures dictate
2. Reject Islam altogether
3. Ignore the cognitive dissonance and start shilling for Islam (and by extent for "radical" Muslims)
This is why it's said that radical Muslims want to blow you up and moderate Muslims hope a radical blows you up.
Islam is the problem. Our immigrants from Suriname (who have a large Hindu minority but are overwhelmingly Christian) tend to assimilate pretty well, they're not perfect but they assimilate somewhat into our culture (because their own culture isn't all that different due to Dutch colonialism) despite supposed racism (which is probably worse when you're black than when you're ambiguously-brown-kinda-whiteish) and marginalization.
>>71018605
>This is why it's said that radical Muslims want to blow you up and moderate Muslims hope a radical blows you up.
But that's not the case at all. There were a tons of studies after aggressive incidents especially after the London tube bombing where they found out that muslim immigrants (in Britain, Germany and France) condemn suicide bombings (60-70% of them answered "it is never justified"). And even in muslim majority countries where the anti-western propaganda is fairly high the answers weren't clear.
I agree with you that islam isn't compatible with our christianity based culture but I don't think it's the case that the whole islam as religion is to blame. I think it should be reformed as christianity hasn't always been a religion about forgiveness too.
We need to root out all the elements which are food for extremism like christians aren't consider the Old Testament's many teachings important anymore.
