SO DISAPPOINTED....I had no idea...
>builds corporation
>manages to make government biggest cuck
Seems like a win to me
There's literally nothing wrong with being a government contractor
inb4 ancap butthurt
>>70979447
As a Trump man, I'm gonna have to allow this. Businessmen following the law shouldn't expect to get b.s. for using methods available to them.
WE WUZ KEYNES
If there's one thing people should be disappointed about, it's his blue pill mentality when it comes to women, and his insistence on marrying money sucking whores (multiple times with the same women baka)
>>70979789
In this scenario...The biggest cucks are the taxpayers.
>>70980048
10/10
Those private companies have to compete with each other for government funding. There is still a market.
wasn't Tesla's R&D literally funded by the government?
>>70980048
lol source of the vid?
>>70980260
and tax payers still have to pay for it.
>>70979447
I agree that Tesla Motors is sort of a joke.
But SpaceX is providing a legitimate service to the government at a cheaper price.
The rule should be:
>Are they saving taxpayers money compared to if they didn't exist?
In SpaceXs case, we'd have to be paying the Russians fucktons of money to resupply the ISS, we'd have to be price gouged by the United Launch Alliance to launch of fucking anything domestically, it's just a big clusterfuck.
Taxpayers should be happy SpaceX exists. Sure, it suckles on the taxpayers teat, but it sucks less than the alternative.
>>70980260
>electric car and private space exploration companies
>compete
Nah, he just figured out a way to make the government give him millions for essentially nothing. He's a glorified welfare queen
what did u expect
reddit beats off and cums buckets over everytime this guy farts
of course he's milking the goberment for his bullshit toys and then going to make even more money when he pushes for electric cars to become law
>>70980469
Still very disappointed...and i thought this guy was the real life Tony Stark.
>>70979447
Musk is an actor
>>70980469
We shouldn't have a space program at all, it's a complete waste of tax dollars.
>>70979447
thats why hes a smart guy
>the gov is giving away billions
>i need to get into those industries
>>70981191
smart, but not respectable.
>>70980048
This is, by far, the funniest thing I've seen on the internet
>>70980469
Hia companies are hemorrhaging money but still he is the billionaire welfare King
>>70980595
>>70979447
Tesla just got loans from the gov't and paid them back.
If we're counting loans pretty much every college student is also not a true capitalist.
Does anyone have an example of Tesla getting literal gibsmedat funding? Tax credits (getting to keep your own money) don't count as a handout.
>inb4 Trump retards cucking for government intervention
oh no wait I'm too late
>>70981554
Still doesn't change anything...I mean it's great that they paid back their loans but it doesn't change the fact that it's done with taxpayers money.
>>70980469
You're a joke
>>70979930
His whole schtick is that a private entity is innovating in space tech which will presumably lead to commercial space travel. Its all a big fat lie.
>>70979447
what ever Musk has gotten is minuscule compared to what Lockheed & Boeing (ULA) has gotten along with the military industrial complex and it's huge fucking failures
here a government funded program that went belly up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra
>>70981554
>Tax credits (getting to keep your own money) don't count as a handout.
Tax credits do count as a handout; getting tax credits is getting other people's money, not getting your own money.
From an accounting perspective there is no difference at all between getting a tax credit and getting a handout. Both a tax credit and a handout go on the assets side of the balance sheet. A tax cut is a reduction in your tax liability. A tax credit is a government handout.
>>70981151
So you believe that when we run out of resources here on earth, we should just die? Granted it'll be a while and we'll likely kill ourselves off before that but... Does the prospect of colonizing other worlds not seem important to you?
>>70981361
>>70980359
>>70980191
The bottom and third from the bottom panels are the same picture look closely, just with some beginner tier Photoshop.
>>70979447
>SO DISAPPOINTED....I had no idea...+ 0 post omitted.
>Government does something good
>It's still bad.
Go away libertarians.
>>70980048
>>70979447
Even better?
Space X is an utter failure and they would have saved money by just going with the Russian government organizations from the get go.
>government contractor who tries to save money with reusable rockets which the government funded NASA abysmally and catastrophically failed with the *reusable* shuttle program.
But in reality the government doesn't make shit. Every part of space launches has been subcontracted, since forever.
Spacex is just a different company from the status quo Lockheed or Boeing.
>>70980469
>Cheaper price
You know Space X has failed at every opportunity right? They're literally flushing money down the toilet.
I don't even disagree with the system - Bidding with private contractors did wonders for NASA in the 60's.
But Space X is a screw up.
>In SpaceXs case, we'd have to be paying the Russians fucktons of money to resupply the ISS
You ARE paying the Russians a fuckton of money to the job after you've already paid Space X a fuckton of money to screw the job up.
>>70983146
how do you know he's wrong?
Government spending led to the internet which eventually led to commercial internet access
>>70983371
>A tax credit is a tax incentive which allows certain taxpayers to subtract the amount of the credit from the total they owe the state
Looks like a tax cut for doing certain things to me.
>>70983630
taxpayers money in the ocean.
>>70983727
>No new things! EVER! Always go with the big establishment option! Do not give government loans to anyone but Goldman Sachs! I'm Australian, hear me "Oi!"
>>70984009
a-fucking-men
the most expensive part of the rocket is the engine. it's also the part that is the least reusable, and has to be practically rebuilt after every launch.
that whole landing upright under its own power thing is stupid too, you're sacrificing a lot of payload capacity just to show off.
>>70979447
>Tesla is is a government contractor
>Paypal is a government contractor
>Solar City is a government contractor
ya oky
>>70984205
They sent a payload cheaper while testing the viability of reusable rockets at the same time. That is called efficiency
>>70984205
>they stuff the money in rockets!
the money went to engineers and manufacturers you clinical broccoli
>>70984230
>No new things ever
Or stop buying into a sales pitch and pay people for results.
Or have a government agency that can utilize contractors for individual units of the mission just like NASA and the military did throughout the Cold War to great effect?
>Hey, instead of opening bidding up to multiple contractors for multiple facets of this road building project and overseeing it ourselves so we can responsibly track expenditure, let's just hire this guy I met at the pub who talks a big game about a totally revolutionary and awesome way of building roads. Oh, I know he can't actually do it, but imagine if he could! We can just go and hire the old contractors after he fucks it up and gouges millions out of us anyway
Musk isn't a big step up from Tim Ferris or Tony Robbins.
Feel good snake oil salesman.
SOLARCITY IS A BIGGER SCAM THAN SOLYNDRA
FUCK OBAMA AND MUSK
>>70984149
It's not a tax cut though, this is basic accounting.
A tax credit is an asset on your balance sheet, and a liability on the government's balance sheet. Government handouts are an asset on your balance sheet, and a liability on the government's balance sheet. There is literally no difference.
A true tax cut is a reduction in your tax liability, which would be a reduction in the government's assets.
Think of it from the perspective of the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC). As long as a low income person has worked during the year, they get an extra big refund check back from the state, which is often far in excess of that taxes that they actually paid. This is a government handout, and it's works just like any other tax credit.
The only difference is higher income people owe more money to the state, so when they get a tax credit (a government handout), it's less than what they owe (their tax liability) so they are still net taxpayers. That doesn't change the fact that from an accounting perspective they are receiving a government handout.
>>70983517
I know, but the idea is still funny.
>>70984638
Two weeks ago they sent a payload to orbit and landed an engine at rough sea within 30 minutes for a lower cost. The engine is probably being tested as we speak for reusability and will, hopefully, be sent back to orbit this year.
The fucking shuttle had to be rebuilt bolt by bolt.
>>70984438
They aren't even government contracts. They're government welfare for private businesses.
Tesla is largely funded by tax rebates because of Muh Green Energy.
Which isn't unusual. Most companies will go where the government incentives are. The problem people have with Musk is that he's not delivering.
When Disney gets it's tax write off's, it delivers on jobs and production.
Musk is the equivalent of the guy who keeps telling you the cheque is in the mail.
>>70985002
>Hopefully
Keep hoping.
>>70984205
>implying thousands of people didn't earn honest paychecks while working on these """"""failures"""""""
yeah, money just totally vanished and isn't stimulating other economic activity :^)
https://pjmedia.com/trending/2016/04/13/this-solar-scandal-more-than-twice-as-big-as-solyndra/
>>70985164
>This socialist leech mentality
Just print more money and hand it out like candy to "stimulate" the economy. GG Commiefornia.
>>70984205
>Money in the ocean
The grasshopper return systems are a solely SpaceX endeavour, and have been trialed on both private and NASA contracted launches.
Would it be better if they didn't try, and the first stage fell into the ocean?
Is that NOT money falling into the ocean?
>>70985003
>Musk is the equivalent of the guy who keeps telling you the cheque is in the mail.
my company( eng/mfg contractor) is getting hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of business as a result of this "government welfare"
what is it that they aren't delivering?
>>70984493
This
Rocket successfully delivered its payload (that's what the government payed them to do). Instead of just letting it fall into and sink to the bottom of the ocean like any other rocket, they went ahead and attempted to do a test landing.
This wasn't a test flight (well it was, but wasn't its primary mission). I don't see the problem.
>>70984149
To simplify my point, think about it this way.
You buy a Tesla. The government sends you a $5000 check. You are $5000 richer, the government is $5000 poorer.
You buy a Tesla. The government lets you pay them $5000 less on your tax bill. You are $5000 richer, the government is $5000 poorer.
What's the difference? Tax credits are just handouts through the tax code. Anyone who argues that they're not handouts is kidding themself.
>>70985344
Anything?
You're getting hundreds of thousands of dollars from the tax payers.
This is no different from a Chicago corner store claiming welfare hikes are great for the economy because the locals come in and buy more malt liquor.
>>70979447
KEK
>>70984638
Every business in the existence of all mankind was new at some point. There's obviously elevated risk in funding a new venture, but you're trying to suggest that going with the newest option is bad. Almost every business got a loan to get started. Where do you think the experience and knowledge comes from? The Jewish Wealth & Experience Bag™? Please don't ever work at a bank, as an auditor, or in government because I strongly suspect you'll try to remove funding from businesses that are less than 10 years old simply because you only wish to have old businesses in operation - leading to total economic collapse due to the new state law of no new businesses being allowed to do anything.
>>70984638
>Or have a government agency that can utilize contractors for individual units of the mission just like NASA and the military did throughout the Cold War to great effect?
Do you mean the cost-plus contracts that led to the $1.5 billion USD per launch Space Shuttle? The same contracts that led to the formation of the ULA monopoly?
I suppose we should ignore that SpaceX isn't the only contractor to receive CCDev funding or launch contracts.
>>70985273
>conveniently ignores that fact that people in china/europe are paying several times MSRP to import model S's in to their countries
anyways, how are tax incentives even comparable to "DUDE JUST PRINT MORE MONEY"?
>>70985344
>My University Professor was able to buy a second home and a new convertible thanks to Bernie's plan of getting the government to pay for college for the entire population
Socialism is awesome.
>>70980595
Tony Stark thrived off government contracts too. Who else do you sell weapons to?
>>70983146
>a private entity is innovating in space tech which will presumably lead to commercial space trave
Having a government contract doesn't falsify any of that.
>>70985575
That is an investment.
The opposite side of investments is debt. The government makes that investment and takes on that debt understanding that the investment will pay off and make back that money.
If our own government can't invest in its own people what the fuck can they invest in?
>>70985644
I'm suggesting that asking the tax payer to fund your private enterprise without proven results is bad. Yes.
That's exactly what I'm stating.
>Got a loan
This isn't a loan. It's a handout. He isn't paying this back, and has no obligation to.
>Please don't ever work at a bank
Sure. I bet the banks would love to hire a guy who advocates interest free "loans" with literally no binding obligation to return the investment.
>No new businesses being ALLOWED to do anything
So not providing welfare is not ALLOWING people to start income generating businesses?
How fucking commie are you up in Canada?
>>70985735
The same contracts to got results rather than burning money?
>We spent less
>I mean, we achieved nothing, but we spent less than had we achieved something
Jesus christ.
>>70985741
>Conveniently ignores the fact that Tesla has received BILLIONS in government welfare and is still nowhere near approaching a state of being a viable business.
>How is handing out tax payers money comparable to handing out tax payers money?
Because it's exactly the same thing and exactly the same logic.
>>70986079
>That is an investment.
How is giving people a handout for buying government approved automobiles an "investment" you fucking retard?
Seriously the dumbest thing I've read all year.
>>70985930
(who else do you sell weapons to)
>>70979447
>propped up by govt
>spaceX
who the fuck else is going to buy trips to space?
>>70986079
>Investing in our own people
Bernie Bro identified.
>>70984823
This
>>70986458
Billionaires like Musk.
Oh, and the thousands of private companies that need to put infrastructure in space.
Unfortunately these companies tend to go with private launch companies with proven track results, rather than a glorified motivational speaker who makes good TED Talks.
>>70980048
Last part is obviously fake.
>>70986319
>Because it's exactly the same thing and exactly the same logic.
so what the fuck do we pay federal taxes for if it is not in some way an investment in ourselves as a nation? Are you a libertarian?
>>70986921
>Are you a libertarian
I guess if that means I don't want my tax money being used to give people free money for no return on the investment.
>>70985273
Exactly
>>70986921
>corporate welfare is an investment in ourselves as a nation, but only when it goes to companies I like
seriously, sit back and reflect on the intellectual incoherence of your statement
>>70979447
for better or worse, government is the highest bidder
>>70987021
so you don't want to pay taxes unless you will directly profit from it? Were you not just criticizing me here>>70985840
because my company is making money off of Tesla and their tax breaks. fuckin hell m8
>>70986319
Agreed
>>70979447
Elon Musk is one of the most innovative and important business leaders of our time. They should award his companies more contracts
>>70987219
There's a difference between giving handouts to legitimately evil corporations like Goldman Sachs and Tesla motors. You're attempting to remove intent and reputation from the equation in order to strawman his argument. I suspect you deny global warming - you just seem like that kind of ultratard.
>>70987597
>>70987219
>but only when it goes to companies I like
how did you get that out of what I actually said?
ALSO
>all these people ITT defending the feds raping businesses with taxes
im out
>>70987353
>so you don't want to pay taxes unless you will directly profit from it?
Pretty much. Self interest. Just like you're happy to have other people work and pay taxes so the government can redistribute their money to you.
I don't blame you for advocating for leeching off other people, since you're making a dollar out of it.
Just like if I was Elon Musk or Goldman Sachs and I could get the tax payer to cover my risks for me, I would.
Just as if I'm on the other end of the bargain, I wouldn't want to hand over my money.
>>70987915
>Defending Feds raping businesses with taxes
Yet you defend raping businesses with taxes so they can be given to unprofitable businesses like Tesla.
>>70987744
How is Tesla Motors and less evil than any other corporation? Because you like their shitty cars?
Why should poor people be forced to help rich people pay for their faggy electric cars which actually cause more pollution on balance than many gas burning cars?
>>70988093
Tesla is a waste
>>70988002
>clinical broccoli
So easy to understand and yet...
It's as if we're surrounded by socialists...
>>70988345
ready the guillotine
>>70988093
That's what bothers me the most with this Musk guy. I'm all for technological progress but this is bullshit...
Maybe i'd turn a blind eye if the results were amazing...But they're not.
>>70986407
Really? I need to explain this?
I have to explain how and why electric cars are an investment?
>>70979447
>le take government contracts so must be on welfare meme
remind me again who at&t would hire to launch their satellites if nasa (government) disappeared?
>>70988595
>Really? I need to explain this?
>I have to explain how and why electric cars are an investment?
Yes, they are depreciating assets like any other automobile, and they have a higher carbon footprint than many gas burning vehicles to boot, so you need to explain it.
>>70988535
I can't stand socialism anymore...People in my country mostly have a crypto-communist mentality....It's frightening..
>>70985147
Aussycuck shitposting extraordinaire.
It'll be great viewing Earth in the distance having left it to the sandniggers. Have fun, buddy.
>>70988745
>and they have a higher carbon footprint than many gas burning vehicles to boot, so you need to explain it.
>le electric cars are worse than gas cars meme
nigga we have natural gas now fuck off.
>>70987597
We should also do more to encourage private business ownership.
MAGA
euroshits just jelly since their Arianne 5 and upcoming Arianne 6 can't compete against SpaceX
>>70989040
>nigga
Can you repeat that in English Tyrone? I don't speak jive.
>>70988745
>they have a higher carbon footprint than many gas burning vehicles to boot
citation needed
>>70988592
On paper the idea is sound.
1. Give Widget Manufacturer a billion dollars
2. Widget Manufacturer builds Widget Factory employing thousands of people.
3. Tax the income of these thousands of people. These thousands of people spend money on goods and services. Tax these businesses and employees too plus tax the Widget Manufacturer. Regain initial investment and have sustainable continuing tax farm.
Except Musk's Widgets are snake oil that won't produce a profit. So you never make it to the end of step 3.
>>70988736
Arianespace. They've been doing it since the 80's.
>>70989423
so you're telling me a private company would do it? holy shit.
>>70989249
>On paper the idea is sound.
It isn't even sound on paper, that's central planning of the economy. It's far more economical to leave the money in the hands of the taxpayers and let it be allocated efficiently to businesses that meet the market test.
>>70989249
So it begs the question...Why is this guy considered as the new "Nikola Tesla" by most youtubers and redditors ?....
Are they just fucking stupid ? Blinded by the hype ? I mean even on POL , some people think this guy is the future.
I wouldn't say he's the Jordan Belfort of space technology...But...
>>70989215
http://www.cnbc.com/2014/12/16/all-electric-cars-not-so-eco-friendly.html
>>70989678
government marketing
>>70989605
Yep.
Preferable to government funded businesses like SpaceX for sure.
>>70989678
Like Tesla his ideas are awesome, so redditors don't care about the actual results.
>>70979447
>>70980106
Bizarre that a guy like that isnt redpilled on women.
No chance is he too stupid to understand, i dont get it
>>70989678
Belfort at least ripped off private investors who willingly made stupid investment decisions. Not Tax Payers who have no say over who the government throws their money at.
>>70983146
The largest entity that requires space launches is the US Government, why would you not seek to make them your client?
>>70989678
Because Musk is a very cunning, sociopathic con man. The best adapted parasites in nature are the ones that can trick the host into believing it has a mutualistic relationship with the parasite.
Musk is a parasite who has fooled the host (the taxpayers) into believing that he is helping to bring about a more "green" world, and that he is moving the ball forward on the exploration of space.
>>70989989
>Welfare leech leftist
>Not red pilled on women
Why would he care about alimony anyway. The Tax Payer will cover his losses.
>>70989835
But at least many of Tesla's ideas and inventions actually worked & had positive results...
>>70990113
>Because Musk is a very cunning, sociopathic con man
>le hes a con man meme
hes going to con us into the future damn he got us good.
>>70990095
You would.
You would also lie about your intent and capabilities for P.R.
Why people would BELIEVE it is the question.
>>70979930
>can survive in the market
>grow strong on the goverment teet
>still loose almost a billion every year
>products sell on HYPE alone
>0 zero real world impact
>He still stays smug as fuck
I hate modern socialist...
>>70980177
but not as cucked when it was 100% with NASA
at least this is a step in the right direction
>>70990062
Right. What of course refering to the "snake oil" salesman part...(off topic..Loved Wolf of Wallstreet btw)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQleT6BtCbE
>>70980048
>this entire post
Genius.
>>70990296
He obviously got you good considering that you think Musk is synonymous with "the future". If his ideas are truly so great then how come none of his companies could exist without government subsidies?
Also,
>le
see pic related
>>70990296
>the cheque is the mail
>El Dorado is just over the next hill
>>70985575
>lets you pay them $5000 less
god statists are so cucked
>>70990409
look at all money the investors are making off of the Tesla meme and the tax payers who fund it
>>70985589
>Anything?
They're putting shit into orbit, successfully, at a lower cost than what it was before.
They've just demonstrated new technology that a lot of people dismissed as impossible. This new technology should significantly reduce the costs of launch.
Stop shitposting, your brain is clogged with feces.
>>70986407
>a handout
paying less tax is magically a handout from the taxing entity?
>>70986407
>Seriously the dumbest thing I've read all year.
>>70979447
So you're saying the only fundamental difference between SpaceX designing our rockets and a military contractor like ATK or Lockheed designing them is the part about SpaceX being about a tenth of the cost?
... I can live with that.
>>70990409
The world is reddited. We survive on inspirational ideas. Results are White Patriarchal Construct.
The only reason his ideas require government funding is because the free market is racist and sexist and homophobic and hates successful money making ventures unless they are inherently evil and crush the common man.
I suggest you spend less time looking at balance sheets and more time watching TEDx talks.
>>70990709
>accepting reality as it actually exists instead of living in a cultish fantasy world where taxes don't exist
>statist
>cucked
>>70990656
there are already two very good electric cars out with a third model being built
the third check IS in the mail, the third el dorado IS over the hill
>>70990504
It was never 100% NASA.
NASA ran the overall project and farmed out the individual components to private contractors.
>>70983371
>From an accounting perspective there is no difference at all between getting a tax credit and getting a handout.
The difference is that one company is actually profitable and solvent the other can't exist without government handouts
You dumb fucking faggot
>>70991024
bitcoin has been around since 2009 and it has yet to be taxed
taxes exist for you, because you are a cuck
I am so sorry
>>70991159
bitcoin doesn't belong to Caesar, yet
>>70991061
>There are already 2 cars out which have failed to deliver a profit
Oh wow.
I have 2 blogs which aren't making any money. But I assure you if the government would only give me a billion dollars, the next one would be the success that I claimed the first two would be.
>>70989157
Jive? Do you speak past 1970s English?
>>70991112
You realize SpaceX and Tesla are the latter right?
>>70984438
Sure
>>70981151
'no'
>>70990640
Because he's developing things that are going to make profit for years to come after all the R&D is done
>it's another euros act tsundere towards america's private space agencies thread because they're stuck with the shitty ESA
top kek
>>70990871
>paying less tax is magically a handout from the taxing entity?
what is basic accounting?
Please explain the difference between the government cutting you a check for a given amount for buying a certain product, and the government giving you a credit on your tax bill for the same amount for buying a certain product.
Let's take the government out of the equation since you're obviously an anarchocapitalist retard. Let's say you are entitled to a $10 refund from your cell phone company. Is there any difference between them sending you a check for $10, or taking $10 off of your monthly bill?
>>70986817
Your obviously a troll
>>70991559
>the cheque is DEFINITELY in the mail
>>70991159
>bitcoin has been around since 2009 and it has yet to be taxed
Wrong, lots of people have had to pay taxes on capital gains from bitcoin. Most people involved with Bitcoin have significant capital losses though, so they haven't had to pay tax.
>>70991634
Actually they're stuck with private space flight companies that turn a profit.
>>70991902
Enlighten me, euroaboo.
>>70980048
that's Krugman tho not Keynes
>>70984205
lol frog, is Ariane 5 even profitable? i imagine you all have to continue cutting costs to be competitive against SpaceX
http://spacenews.com/arianespace-expects-to-post-2011-profit-after-2-years-of-losses/
>>70991559
What exactly makes the government better suited to allocate resources towards enterprises that might potentially be profitable in the future than venture capitalists and angel investors?
>>70992062
For one, Arianespace.
Ironically they are now asking for tax payer handouts to preemptively combat the potential lower prices of SpaceX (thanks to their massive government handouts).
In the meantime their private shareholders are slashing staff and offering much more competitive pricing.
Thefore SpaceX's government welfare has been good at providing cheaper services to European companies who need launches.
Euro bros should thank wasteful U.S. expenditures for keeping the market competitive.
>>70992233
>http://spacenews.com/arianespace-expects-to-post-2011-profit-after-2-years-of-losse
>>70992479
>launch orders
>profit
pick one
>>70992233
The way i see it though...
Whether it's space x or ariane....
I don't like it when taxpayers money is on the line...
>>70981151
Think of it as an insurance investment
An investment in prolonging our future, colonizing the planets and stars
>>70979447
>ITT news most of us already knew
>>70992759
If it was being spent on that and not alimony payments for a shyster I'd agree.
>>70992759
No, I can't think about it that way because none of that will happen in our lifetime.
Consider 2 alternatives:
1. Continue flushing taxpayer money down the toilet by paying for a space program.
2. Don't waste that money and keep it in the private sector. The economy grows faster than it would in scenario 1, making us richer and increasing our technological capacity far faster. Our future ability to colonize planets and starts comes far sooner than it would in scenario 1 when we flush taxpayer money down the toilet.
Scenario 2 is clearly far superior, ESPECIALLY if your objective (which is foolhardy at best) is to be able to colonize the solar system and beyond thosands of years into the future.
>>70979447
So what, because he doesn't worship at the 1st Sociopathic Church of Ayn Rand you fucks shit on the real life Tony Stark? Kill yourselves.
>>70980469
Honestly his ideas have potential but money doesn't come out of thin air. And so far it seems he's running out of funds.
Tesla actually makes a pretty decent product. But you have to ask what is the ecological impact of battery materials for their cars as opposed to a car that runs off gas.
>>70993156
This
>>70992740
>when taxpayers money is on the line
Then we'll charge you for every time you use things in space, cable tv, gps, telephone, weather, defense, etc. Everything that goes on with space benefits everyone everywhere.
>>70993231
>real life Tony Stark
The reddit is strong with this one.
>>70993315
You mean the things launched by successful private companies like Arianespace?
They already charge.
>>70993315
>>70993429
>Then we'll charge you for every time you use things in space, cable tv, gps, telephone, weather, defense, etc. Everything that goes on with space benefits everyone everywhere.
>cable, telephone, defense, weather
>weather
3/10 I very nearly wrote you a reply.
>>70993315
>>70993429
>muh spin-offs
The Federation Of American Scientists have a word or two to say about that:
http://fas.org/spp/eprint/jp_950525.htm
>A closer examination of the spinoff record would provide little comfort for space advocates. One recent German analysis of space spinoffs concluded that (Schmoch, Ulrich, et al, "Analysis of Technical Spin-Off Effect of Space-Related R&D by Means of Patent Indicators," 41st Congress of the International Astronautical Federation, 6-12 October 1990, IAA-90-610.):
>"The overall conclusion to be drawn from this is that the spin-off rate is very low in highly specialized space projects -- a conclusion which coincides with the finds of other investigations. The concept of a decisive spin-off in the narrow, real sense of the term cannot therefore be validated on the result of these findings... many standard examples of spin-offs may be traced back to the first R&D boom in the Sixties... only in the rarest of cases do the spin-offs prove to be identifiable as classic cases in which the source can be associated exclusively with space technology and the diffusion be associated with a sector unrelated to space technology. In the majority of cases, both source and diffusion can be associated with multiple purposes both within and outside space technology."
...
>So rather than being an unusually good investment paying 7:1 or 22:1 for each dollar invested, NASA has an astoundingly bad 1:10 payoff -- about a factor of 100 worse than the commercial economy as a whole.
>>70992362
>Massive government handouts
You keep saying this, yet you never point anything out except for the government paying the going rate that private launch contracts with the company go for and CCDev contracts, which were handed out to Bezos, ULA and others besides Musk.
The only other thing you have to point towards is state government tax breaks, and what logical connection is there between the massive cost reduction in the SpaceX product and a reduction in starting infrastructure overheads? Can you perhaps ferret up an actual study or analysis on the magnitude of the benefits?
What about ULA? What about cost plus? What about congressional lobbying for local industries as pork barrel projects paid for over the odds? Are they better? Are they "right"?
>>70993529
I was referring to those who didn't want their tax dollars invested in space technology. If you can elect not to have your tax dollars used for space technology, the rest of us can elect to not let you use our space technology or charge you extra for being a dumb fuck.
>>70979447
>hurr durr not real capitalism
>its actually socialism i swear!
fuck off
>>70979447
I'd rather my tax dollars go to spaceX than NASA. One of them is actually productive and knows how to work on a budget.
>>70979930
Fucking hilarious image
Something about the screaming frog
>>70989249
The problem is if the idea works, its good but if things do not work out, the Government doesn't go bankrupt, it just taxes people more to recoup the losses.
If a private company loans or invests in the widget maker than that private company bears the losses. It is the risk that provides incentive for venture capitalists and investors to pick only sound business models. When there is no risk born by the government itself because it can always print or tax its way out of a situation, you can expect corruption, favoritism, and kick backs to be the deciding factors.
>>70993738
Who care about the spin offs. They just happen by accident or some marketing gimmick like Tang. My point is space development made America the greatest country on Earth.
>>70993777
>Other than the 4.9 billion given to Musk, can you point to any handouts
His companies FAILED. This isn't a case of a successful fulfilled contract that the government paid for.
>Other leeches receieve handouts therefore Musk is golden
Nice logic.
>>70993777
Also Jeff Bezos fits in very snugly with his fellow snake oil pitchers Ferris and Musk.
>>70994023
>Who care about the spin offs.
You apparently according to your previous comments:
>>70993315
>>70993429
>>70993825
>My point is space development made America the greatest country on Earth.
How exactly did out commie-ing the commies make us the greatest country on Earth? So we got to do a bit of nationalistic chest beating when we made it to the moon first. So what? We have nothing to show for it other than a completely bleached, white flag somewhere on the moon, and some moon rocks.
>>70993825
We don't use your space technology dumb fuck. We use private companies.
>>70993869
Which one would that be?
Because SpaceX isn't productive at all.
>>70984205
Fucking idiot. ULA launches at $250 m a pop and they dump their boosters in the ocean. SpaceX has already successfully recovered 2 boosters already.
>>70993844
It's literally socialism.
Yeah no shit.
SpaceX wouldn't have been possible without Nasa laying the groundwork for commercial space travel.
Tesla Motors wouldn't have been possible without the government subsidizing electric cars.
He still has nuts for size of coconuts to invest in such risky projects and does cool as fuck shit.
>>70994392
PAY DEBTS
Only a LiberoFag would post something this autistic. Please go read about the fact that the electric car subisidies given to Tesla were paid back more than in full. The American people made a profit.
you fucking retard.
>>70994504
>Investing tax payers money and cutting yourself a massive cheque for the service
Real balls on the man.
>>70985575
That's not unique to Tesla though. You get a rebate for en electric cat no matter the brand.
>>70981151
> GPS, satellite communication, spy satellites are all completely useless.
>>70994579
>were paid back
Not even remotely close to coming close to starting to pay back.
Tax Payers have dropped over 2 billion on Tesla so far.
They have not even come close to generating a profit as a company yet.
>>70994155
>Other than the 4.9 Billion given
By whom? State government? A CCDev contract? Launch contracts?
Repeat the same useless numbers all you want, it doesn't make the particulars less important.
>his companies failed
The contracts for both launch services and CCDev are successfully fulfilled, the loan for Tesla was paid off already, all his businesses are still in operation and still have capital flow for foreseeable future.
Do you forget that 80% of all new businesses have already failed and gone defunct by the 5th year after their being started? That half of those don't even post a profit before then?
Has Amazon failed? They didn't post a profit in their first 20 years yet they're still operating.
>Other leeches received handouts
Contracts. But you seem to praise the old way of doing business and you specifically said that the old way of doing business, during the cold war, was more effective.
Do you have a problem with lining up your thoughts before translating them into words?
libertardians get out, go to somalia or antarctica. a nation should have an active government to take care of its people, improve society, enforce morals and invest in projects that strengthen the nation like space exploration and tech development.
>>70994702
Fucking google it you lazy cunt.
Off the top of my head - 1.2 billion by the state of Nevada. Not a tax credit. A literal handout.
>>70994694
See >>70993738
That's more military technology than space technology.
>>70994860
Reno got cucked hard
The governor is having second thoughts about the deal/theft
>>70994702
>Contracts for both launch services are successfully fulfilled
If you mean successful as in failed and NASA was required to turn to the Russians for the launch, then yes, they were a success.
>>70984205
What do you think happens to rockets?
>>70980048
shoop
>>70994813
>invest in projects that strengthen the nation like space exploration and tech development
Again, how does space exploration "strengthen the nation"? You need to cite some facts and figures. 'Because I think it's cool" isn't an argument.
Spending money on a space program gives us a negative return on investment as explained by the source provided in >>70993738. That means it makes us both POORER and LESS TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED.
>>70994297
>greatest country on Earth
The shear will power of America. 2 time World War winner, first to Moon with duplicate shadow military program, able to project military power anywhere on a moments notice, check out our economic might, I can go on all day. Public funded space technology has helps all of us all day everyday. Why do you think this is a waste of tax monies?
>>70979447
WE'RE TALKIN ELON MUSK
TESLA
SOLYNDRA
THE FUTURE IS NOW
JUST --
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1yrH4qS2RA&feature=youtu.be&t=116
>>70994702
>Contracts
Are something you deliver on.
Not pre-emptive financing for projects that have not turned a profit.
What are you confused about here?
>NASA puts out a competitive bid for shuttle wheels
>Multiple companies bid for the contract and deliver a working a product
>Musk puts out a vague idea about magic cars
>Government builds him billions of dollars worth of infrastructure
>One day these companies might turn profit...but probably won't.
MUSK CANNOT STOP ASKING FOR ASSISTANCE FROM THE GOVERNMENT
http://www.reviewjournal.com/business/energy/tesla-asks-new-rooftop-solar-rates-be-reconsidered
>>70994697
>>70994579
Tesla Motors has been clearly focusing on growth, we're going to have to see how the Model 3s launch pans out to see if they can transition to profitability successfully.
>>70995065
>POORER and LESS TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. You still have everything you paid for and the knowledge of how to make better. Difficult things are difficult.
>>70994959
You like to harp on that one failure when it was in a string of other failures by other companies.
It's almost as if space launches aren't easy.
You also act as if the Russians never have any failures.
Elon Musk is the Thomas Edison of our time. And by that I mean he is the rich conman here to sell us on his vision of future, all while appearing to be one of the great modern scientific minds.
What's darkly ironic is him using the name "Tesla" just as Edison used the real flesh and blood Tesla while leaving him to die in poverty and alone.
>>70995124
>Public funded space technology has helps all of us all day everyday. Why do you think this is a waste of tax monies?
Again, this is a common misconception spread by NASA propaganda, but it is completely and utterly false.
See >>70993738
>only in the rarest of cases do the spin-offs prove to be identifiable as classic cases in which the source can be associated exclusively with space technology and the diffusion be associated with a sector unrelated to space technology. In the majority of cases, both source and diffusion can be associated with multiple purposes both within and outside space technology.
>So rather than being an unusually good investment paying 7:1 or 22:1 for each dollar invested, NASA has an astoundingly bad 1:10 payoff -- about a factor of 100 worse than the commercial economy as a whole.
Source:
Federation of American Scientists
http://fas.org/spp/eprint/jp_950525.htm
>>70994860
>I'm going to throw numbers about and not give a shit about my burden of proof!
Sasuga flag.
>Handout by Nevada
Then that's the responsibility of Nevada and its taxpayers. And what were the particulars? What was given in return, for that "handout"? Isn't persuading politicians a sign of a good businessman? If not, what about Trump? He had 4 chapter 11 bankruptcies, failures, and used political influence and taxpayer money, doesn't that make him a bad businessman too?
>>7099495900
Are you unable to respond in a single post?
>Failed
You mean, gasp, a new launch solution isn't as reliable as a legacy product, the innovation and cost of which was strangled by the ultraconservative nature of the aerospace industry and an inherent rejection of destructive testing and advancement through failure, a staple of engineering successess?
>Required to turn to Russians for a launch
And? You say that like ULA and Russian launches never fail, or that everything can be done at the drop of a hat.
>>70995299
I also understand that other space companies had to deliver on contracts without a tax payer safety net.
>>70979447
>makes fancy electric cars
>makes self flying spaceships
god, government employees, am i right? get a real job you lazy fuck
>>70979447
He's lost over 950 million dollars with the crashes he's had. Space X would be finished if the government was pumping massive amounts of money into his space venture.
>>70979447
I'd prefer that NASA still existed as it did rather than SpaceX
>>70995289
The Soviets still had everything they paid for until they collapsed. So obviously everything the spent their money on was worthwhile.
Jesus Christ, socialists are fucking retarded.
You are literally arguing that socialism is what makes America great.
>>70994886
You need a rocket to put it in orbit don't you?
I don't see Boeing or Google offering their own GPS alternative.
>>70995348
>Isn't that the burden of the state of Nevada
...
And?
>Shouldn't a good conman be able to make money?
...
And?
What's your point?
If I was Musk and the money was left on the table I'd take it too.
If I was the state of Nevada I wouldn't be stupid enough to leave it on the table for him.
>>70995136
>Pre-emptive financing for projects that have not turned a profit
So you mean the CCDev projects, which were a government plan to actually spur on private investment into replacement vehicles for both cargo and passengers, because none existed at the time, forcing the US to rely on Russia transport? Of which only SpaceX actually has fulfilled on the cargo fronts, and is on track to fulfill for the passenger element?
You built a good strawman, very nice. Probably would fit in at burning man.
>>70995348
I say that as if tax payers shouldn't pay for the falls.
>>70995567
>rockets don't have obvious military applications outside of space technology
>>70995465
I disagree, SpaceX is definitely the lesser evil to NASA even if it is a money sink that people throw money into because SPACE IS COOL BRAH.
NASA is objectively a far bigger money sink than SpaceX.
>>70995570
The point is that you are screaming about musk, but if you are right, should you be screaming at Nevada to use it responsibly, rather than the consequences you're so handily bitching about?
But you're not the state of Nevada, you're just an Australian with a republican faggot in charge, being swamped by lebs and chinks while you drown under DUDE WEED lite politicians
>>70995312
What do spin offs have to do with benefiting us?
Just because there is no GPS company doesn't mean it doesn't benefit us.
>>70995567
Boeing literally builds launch rockets for GPS satellites.
>>70995709
>the military is somehow not funded by government handouts
>>70995312
>http://fas.org/spp/eprint/jp_950525.htm
Checked your source
NASA Technological Spinoff Fables John Pike - 25 May 1995
Another Lazy, Empty Quote from John Pike
http://nasawatch.com/archives/2005/02/another-lazy-empty-quote-from-john-pike.html
>>70995750
Except that large-scope space exploration and development will never be handles by private corporations (DAE LE FREE MARKET), and all but requires a national effort (and funding) to accomplish.
SpaceX and the rest can have LEO, I don't give a shit, but for our sake we need NASA back to where it was so that we can focus on stuff beyond our planet.
>>70995582
No I mean states like Nevada building battery stations and manufacturing plants for Tesla.
>>70995833
Yep. And who pays for that?
Oh wait, it's your fucking tax money.
>>70995768
Fun fact; Women who get drunk and go home with a pack of young Pakistani men are stupid, but that doesn't make the Paki rapists and less rapey.
>>70995773
GPS came about for military purposes. GPS would still exist if we weren't wasting money on a space program.
Benefiting from spin-offs is the only argument that space advocates have when people ask "Why should we waste money on a space program?" It can easily be shown that this argument is severely flawed and that spin-offs that come solely from space technology are very, very rare and are not justified by the costs of having a space program.
>>70990409
To be fair he dumps like everything back into building more shit.
>>70995893
Then clearly that's not related to SpaceX then?
I mean, I'd hope it'd be clear not to muddle up the affairs of several independent organisations just because of who owns them. I mean, you wouldn't, the people who'd believe that would be people who think Trump went bankrupt 4 times over, and you're not one of them are you?
>>70996019
Still can't even reply in a single post. You'd probably benefit from from thinking first, if that's even possible for an Australian. Low energy.
>>70980177
How are they the cuck, you retard? They buy his stuff, because it's the best service, for the best price. If it wasnt, nasa would somehow launch their own rocket.
>>70995839
>>the military is somehow not funded by government handouts
Of course they are. The difference is that national defense is far and away the most important function of any national government, and every person benefits from having a strong national defense.
The only people who benefit from having a space program are the people employed by it. Everybody else is a net loser.
>>70996030
The benefit of a space program is having a bug-out plan for a doomsday asteroid or someshit, eventually solving the nigger problem by leaving for the Aryan-only planet, etc.
>>70979447
>We must come up with reasons to discredit the incarnation of Ayn Rand's ideas
>>70995518
No socialist here. But I know without NASA and defense funding with my tax dollars, I wouldn't have this super computer in my pocket.
>> And yes we out spent the USSR to the point of bankrupting them.
>>70995897
Private companies who rent the service off the U.S. Air Force, since they aren't allowed to put their own GPS sattelites into orbit.
>>70996142
>The only people who benefit from having a space program are the people employed by it. Everybody else is a net loser.
Except for every two or three generations down the line, even assuming we don't actually get into space proper and instead just benefit from technological advancement.
>>70996212
Ayn Rand was a sophomoric kike whore who had no idea what she was talking about.
>>70996229
>The space race bankrupted the USSR!
/pol/ is fuckin retarded.
>>70996113
>Let me move these goal posts real quick
Okay reddit.
>>70996136
>Best service
Meine sides.
>>70979447
>person has company
>government so big it is involved in everyone's companies
>government buys from company
Is his company the problem? Or is it government?
>>70996030
No, the argument that was being made is that Tesla etc. is bad because muh government funding.
GPS (and the military) is 100% government funding.
And btw, GPS would not exist if you couldn't put shit in space.
I will agree with you however that at our current level of tech there is no point having people in space.
Rockets are too heavy, too slow, too expensive to take anyone anywhere and back in any kind of reasonable time frame.
>>70995884
So according to your source, John Pike is apparently pro-NASA even though he admits that it doesn't actually provide any tangible benefits to the taxpayer in terms of technological spin-offs or return on investment. And?
The way I see it the only way you can justify spending on space exploration is if you see it as an end in itself, which I do.
All these dipshits making vague assertions about how funding NASA has somehow advanced science beyond what could have been done with the same money spent elsewhere, that's all they have, vague assertions. Because no facts back up what they say.
>>70980469
This man is knowledgable please bow before the superior opinion.
>>70996310
>t. enlightened 4chan poster
>>70996229
>No socialist here
NASA is a socialist program. If you support NASA, you support socialism.
>without NASA and defense funding with my tax dollars, I wouldn't have this super computer in my pocket
I've already shown this to be false, give it up. Without defense funding, maybe. But defense funding is completely justified whereas NASA funding is completely unjustified (and unconstitutional).
>>70981151
People like you should be used in rapid decompression tests to study how to give the best protection for our astronauts.
>>70996142
Actually, supposing the amazing idea that something is actually legitimate, and SpaceX recovering lower stages helps to reduce the cost per lb to launch, it pushes into the region where the inverse relationship between launch cost and viable launch possibilities decouples from its strict proportional relationship, i.e. further decreasing the cost the launch opens up far more commercial opportunities than the cost falls, and beyond realm of interest of 'big capital' organisations.
Besides, scientific institutions will always push for funding to research things, analogically, it's more comparable to the exploration of the new world - incredibly large investments by the state or sovereign with no promise of immediate direct return on investment until economic advantages could be levied or there was activity to be had.
SpaceX just fucking delivered an inflatable module to the ISS for Bigelow Corporation.
This is a test flight so they can send that shit up for commercial flights in 2020.
Government is stimulating the private sector, what the fuck are you cucks on about?
>muh socialism
>muh we were cucked by USSR for the whole space race
