Give me your best argument
>>70953030
Those jobs will just go towards the immigrants you want in the country so badly
>>70956199
When wages go up -> Companies cannot afford to hire as many people -> The market diminishes as most are working part time or not working at all -> We all do worse
>>70956199
The flaw with that reasoning is that you are ASSUMING that workers will immediately spend their new earnings, instead of saving them which is what they would really do with the current situation. Besides, you are also assuming that the wages going up doesnt hurt the bussiness, and you are not saying that the prices would have to go up, since the employer is forced to pay more to its employees.
>There are two kinds of people, the ones who know about economy, and socialists.
Either this post:
>>70956585
Or
>wages go up
>companies increase prices to compensate for lost revenue paid to workers
>everything stays exactly the same as before, only with bigger numbers
>>70956199
only if you close the borders and destroy any company that hires illegals
Employer has to pay people more, so the manufactured product's price increases
Employer has to pay people more, so instead of hiring actual people they invest in automated solutions (like McDonalds). While the initial cost is high, they're extremally cost efficient in long runs.
>>70956303
This.
The same people campaigning for higher minimum wage are also the same ones begging for a flood of brown people that reduce the value of unskilled labor to 1/3.
Either you choose a future for yourself, or for the precious mud-people behind the gates that are howling for your spilt blood.....there is no room for both.
It would only really work if employees productivity increased. And that only happens with technological advancement.
>>70956775
This is exactly what happens
>>70956199
>print money
>give it to people
>people have more money to buy things
>businesses make more money
>so we all do better
The argument assumes money is unchanging in value
>>70956775
So it's just a pointless cycle of rising prices?
>>70956199
You know how to get higher wages?
Deport all immigrants taking away jobs and with that lowering wages,
>>70956199
That infographic is incorrect. Forcing a minimum wage creates what is known in economics as a price floor. A price floor creates a permanent surplus of things, in this case labor. Thus, an increase in the minimum wage will produce permanent unemployment, most likely for those who fought for the minimum wage increase themselves.
>if we pay people thousands of dollars in hourly pay, the economy will boom like never before!
>>70956775
this is the current feedback loop instituted
>>70956199
The fundamental issue of this is assuming that the money is actually there to pay these workers more through the institution of a law forcing an artificial wage increase.
Since the whole argument is based on the false premise of paying people with money thag doesn't actually exist the "argument" completely falls apart.
what about workers who aren't doing $15 worth of work? Raising the minimum wage is basically saying it's illegal to hire anyone who does under that wage's worth.
If their wages go up without an actual increase in raw material and demand for the product or service it will merely inflate the market and devalue the currency
>>70958522
>Raising the minimum wage is basically saying it's illegal to hire anyone who does under that wage's worth.
This shouldn't be a surprise since this is the reason the idea of minimum wage laws were originally thought of.
To stop poorer lowskilled black workers from competing with more expensive white Union labor and it was extremely successful both here and in apartheid South Africa
The minimum wage is a political football. The flood of immigrant labor is what is flooding the market with low-wage workers which are driving down wages.
But liberals are too fucking stupid to realize what is going on, and they are too blind to see their culpability in producing the very thing they are fighting against.
The minimum wage is utterly pointless. Wages, labor, and prices will always find equilibrium.
>Build unnecessary bridges and roads just to make jobs
>????
>Profit!
>Start unnecessary wars to make military industry jobs
>???
>Profit!
>Give to some lazy and untrained burger flipper a wage identical to a electrical engineer so he has more money to spend
>????
>Profit!
This is why neo-Keynesian arguments never make sense.
Unfortunately, it isn't as easy as that OP. Suppose you want the fence around your yard painted. You can hire a skilled painter who can do the job in one day but charges $30 an hour or you can hire 3 unskilled painters who will do the job in one day for $9 an hour each. This is why labor unions are behind the minimum wage increase. They know it will mean more work for their skilled members. BTW, the very same labor unions that got the $15 minimum wage increase in California are petitioning to be exempted from that minimum wage. By not letting the market determine minimum wage, you will eliminate opportunities for unskilled workers to learn skills. It will all backfire on the mopes who bought into the unions bullshit.
>>70958870
>cont...
Let me add. Our stupid trade policies, and the machinations of the Federal Reserve, are further driving down wages, by outsourcing most blue-collar jobs. While producing ridiculous amounts of "fake-capital" at the top, through near-zero percent interest rate capital, which is being injected into a real-estate and stock-market bubble, benefiting primarily those "at the top"(IE the holders of those "investments").
But liberals are too stupid to understand how the Federal Reserve works, and why it is the very thing which is producing the income and wealth gap, that they are fighting so hard to close.
>>70956199
You can only mine raw material so fast?
>>70958893
>>70956199
wages should go up but not for work anyone could do, that removes the incentive to be competitive.
and offcourse if allcurrently low wages go up you lose wage gaps to harder/more skilled work so why should anyone want to work harder or learn a trade/skill?
work like flipping burgers should be paying the minimum to stay alive and get education
>>70956761
>>There are two kinds of people, the ones who know about economy, and socialists.
hello from your former colony :^)
agreed.
![7c3e8d86311241ecb6b538e5abb74a8e[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/jUhWbdB.jpg "7c3e8d86311241ecb6b538e5abb74a8e[1].jpg")
free... money?
>>70957896
Not necessarily. In 90s in Moscow they manage to rise wages and stop price growth by making everything around a poor shithole.
>>70956199
Why not make minimum wage $50
>>70956199
it won't carry on to them spending more, since they won't be employed earning at much.
and anyway, this gives no reason to put it to 15 instead of something more reasonable like 10/he
>>70959780
>>70956199
>wages go up
>prices go up
>inflation is up
>nominal output is up but
>amount of goods you can buy doesn't change
>real income doesn't change
>in the end, we have no change in unemployment, just a change in prices with no change in real wages
The value of the currency just goes down. All you're doing is shifting the value of the currency.
What you really want to happen is the demand for your currency (or work) to rise. So try not to cripple the American Dollar, please. Also: try not to cripple your own value. That means become USEFUL TO OTHERS.
>>70959227
>cont...
Let me further add, many conservatives are pretty fucking stupid as well. They continue to support a top-down economic system, produced largely by monetary manipulation, which creates a pseudo-aristocracy.
The system we have now, wants to strip almost all of the land and resources out of the hands of the least industrious, place them into the hands of the people most-apt to use them for maximum profits, and then to have all the rest of us suckling from their teat for our livelihoods.
Basically, it wants the 1% to become our masters. To become to organizers and managers of the world's resources. Because the rest of us are too stupid.
>>70956199
More workers does not equal more wages.
Supply and demand.
>>70956775
THIS IS THE FUCKING FED.... BTFO of American sovereignty and printing money.... Where is Andrew Jackson ?! :(
>>70956199
Wages dont go up -> more people are hired -> more gets done -> more money gets made -> best workers get more money and more businesses open
>>70956775
This.
Not to mention the outsourcing of some jobs, and the automation of other jobs. Another leftist piece of garbage in the office, and we can say good day, (sooner, I might add) to the middle-class.
>>70956199
If worker wages go up, so will the prices of goods since demand will rise. The actual amount of goods do not change.
What you really want to do is decrease taxation ( i.e. the resources that end up in a bottomless pit ) to increase the share of resources available to the free market as a whole.
>>70956775
hey thats what i said
>>70959987
>>70956199
Meanwhile someone else loses money. You're merely shifting demand around.
http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/08/broken-window-fallacy.asp
>>70956199
Contemplate that money is not necessary for economics. Money is just an exchange medium. So if you put wages up the rest of the prices in the economy adjust because no greater value has been added to the economy. Hence wages are linked to productivity: if more is made wages go up, simply making wages go up does not increase productivity. That can only be done by investment in machinery, better working practices, actual real world economic differences.
>>70956199
The best thing we could do for the working class is restrict the population, since that drives up wages due to demand and supply. That is what kickstarted the renaissance- reduced population due to the black plague.
We have another "black plague" in our hands, but it is not reducing our populations, it is increasing it. I'm talking about 3rd world immigration. 1st world will never have another golden age unless we reduce immigration to a trickle of highly skilled individuals and enact the kind of protectionist policies that were in place until the liberalization that happened in the later half of the 20th century.
>>70956199
90s version:
>huge number of jobs outsourced
>cost of labor and thus cost of production drops like a rock
>prices still go up (lol)
>>70959987
Not only that, by increasing minimum wage and therefore prices, other jobs will need an increase on their salaries too, and if they don't this will just discourage people from getting a job that requires practical skills, since they can earn 15 bucks per hour flippin burgers.
>>70956199
unemployment is the problem, not wages
increasing wages won't decrease unemployment
>>70960101
Dead, and they want to bury him. Deeper than he probably already is. I heard there was also hinting on replacing him for the $20 Dollar bill.
>>70956199
Not sure you can run an economy based on cute clothes and fake jewelry.
>>70956199
That only works if there's a monopoly and everyone works for the same company.
For example,
Say that I sell beef Jerky for $2 each (at a $1 profit margin)
Say I sell 100 strips of beef jerky an hour ($200)
Now, I have 3 Employees and myself to pay.
Before, I would pay them each $10/hr for their work.
So, after 1 hour, it looks like this:
Revenue: $200
Employees: $10 each ($30)
Me ($70) 1/2 of my profits will be invested back into my company, so I can phase out employees and increase sales.
Everyone gets a slice of the pie for the work they put in.
Now, lets make it $15 an hour
So after 1 hour:
Profit ($100)
Employees: $15 each ($45)
Me: ($55) I can't grow my business with that amount of money.
>>70958522
This is the best argument against "value X" minimum wage. Because the employee needs to be able to create X dollars of revenue/value per hour to break even with the pay. If not the employer is losing revenue on every employee and will find alternative methods (ex automation), lay off, or close because the margin increase cannot be passed on or cut back.
this is just a game of proportions. you raise minimum wage, then inflation occurs and businesses adjust prices. same damn scenario with new numbers.
>>70957458
My dollar will always be a dollar
>>70959523
Of you start a spark then that strip will power itself you just can't draw more power than what the spark is.v
>>70956199
That would only work with economic nationalism and fairy magic. How can companies afford the wage rise?
Whoever made that pic doesn't understand keynessianism. It's gotta be the public workers getting more employed so they can buy shit, stimulate the production, hire new people in private enterprises and getting the sweet tax money to start again.
And yet it doesn't work as easy as that either.
>>70957896
Welcome to inflation.
>>70960778
They better fucking not
george bush did 9/11
>>70956199
When you minimum wage, people get fired, those people can't find jobs, so they become unemployed and live off govt funding. Taxes go up, and everyone gets shafted.
>>70961757
it's ironic, really. the only time the us wasn't in debt was in 1835 when jackson paid it all off, so now they want to bury an economist
>>70961811
>The jews did 9/11, bush was a potato-headed pawn
fixed that for you
>>70956775
Not only that, but the money you keep in a bank is still in smaller numbers, so you've effectively devalued what little savings the poor working class have.
Here's an alternative,
Lower taxes across the board by removing or reducing funding to some unnecessary government programs, people actually have incentive to work, more people work, corporations can afford to hire more workers, people can afford to live and make enough to start saving, everyone wins.
>>70956199
One cannot argue against the retarded
>>70956199
I'm sold OP. Why stop at $15? Let's make the minimum wage 50- no -$100 an hour. We'll solve poverty in no time.
>>70956585
That's one saucy chinkette
>>70956199
Okay, let's put it like this:
Let's say I run a small business. I employ 8 people at $10 an hour, 4 people at $12 an hour, and 2 people at $14 an hour. After payroll and my other expenses (rent, supplies, utilities, insurance, etc) I make enough money in profit to take home what amounts to $20 an hour myself.
Minimum wage becomes $15.
First problem: is it fair that my shift managers get paid the same as the cashiers? If they all get raised to $15 an hour, how do I compensate my senior employees for their experience? I want to retain them: they have worked for me for a long time and I trust them.
But let's say I don't do that. Let's say I will just raise everyone up to $15. That's a loss of (8*5)+(4*3)+(2)= Congratulations, my $20/hour profit has transformed into a $34/hour deficit overnight.
>But your sales will improve because everyone now has more money to spend on your products!
I have to write 14 paychecks the Friday after that law comes into effect. I have to dip into my savings to do so. Do you really think I'm going to count on four times my normal business coming in next week? And I'll have to order four times my normal inventory, right? Do you think I should take out a second mortgage for that gamble? Or do you think it's more likely I will lay off 4 of my least experienced employees (or cut their hours) to make up for the deficit? Or close down my shop entirely?
And now imagine that I'm not the only one with this problem. Imagine all those people whose increased earnings you were counting on to fuel this new economy of yours are now unemployed.
>>70956775
>everything stays exactly the same as before, only with bigger numbers
apparently everyone here has an economics degree.
Have you considered things that don't have a wage related cost (e.g. real estate) won't be affected as much?
If you increase wages, more 'poor' people can afford hard assets (such as a house), increase their wealth and spend more in the economy on luxury goods (i.e. not $1 McDonalds meals you fat fucks love so much)
>>70956199
Did they make Rosie the Riveter a trap?
>>70956585
or
>inflation goes up and everything become more expensive, what makes everything stay the same or even worst
>>70962166
>no money fo dem programs
Riots in the streets, anon
>>70956775
thats what happened here
2000: min wage of brazil is 200R$
2016:min wage of brazil is 900R$
a great improvement right? No, with 900R$ in 2016 you can buy less things, food for example, that you could in 2000 with 200R$.
>>70956199
Employees don't often spend their paycheck where they work. So paying your employees more in the hopes that they'll buy more of your product doesn't do much besides costing you more for payroll.
Get rekt skrub
Also, do all you retards not realise the rise in minimum wage is going to be gradual?
Have you not read on it at all? Which is hilarious because you pride yourselves with 'redpilling' and not being sheep.
Businesses have time to adjust, a $1 raise tomorrow isn't going to be that big of an issue.
>>70961878
It's because he literally BTFO of the US Central Bank ...
Then we got Jewed in the Civil War
>>70956199
>What is raising of prices according to demand
>What is hiring mexicans for few pennies
>What is firing of expensive employees
>What is closing of companies due to artificialy increased cost of running one
You deserve socialism, it is the only way it will cure you of the stupidity.
>>70962722
that's because your economy is dogshit
>>70956199
It's a circular process and they chose to make their shitty point by breaking the circle and making it a line.
Infinite growth is also not possible.
>>70962829
the workers party is dogshit*
>>70956199
Wages are not the same thing as production.
Pay people more for less and they will buy more, until either prices rise or there's nothing left to buy.
>>70956775
That's exactly what I thought when I was 10 years old listening to leftists' promise of raising the minimum wage during the 2006 elections.
What's the problem with leftists that they can't see what a 10 year old monkey can see?
>>70956199
>>70956199
> when businesses make more, they keep growing and hiring
>>70956199
Raising the minimum wage will lower the amount of workers hired/hours worked overall.
Don't think of an economy as money. Think of it as resources and things. There are no more things to buy even if everyone got paid 10000000 $/ hour. Increased productiviy is how you make people richer
>>70956199
>When workers wages go up...
>they get fired because their work isn't worth what they're being paid, so companies find alternatives
>they must receive handouts from the government due to their inability to find a job
>taxes must be raised to support these people
>which comes out of the pockets of companies and working people
>further raising prices, and leading to even more unemployment due to strains on companies
>other companies from abroad are able to have easier competition
>economy crashes because nobody is buying from their own country anymore because everything's too expensive and nobody has any money anyway so they have to seek out the cheap
Good fucking job you lazy retards.
If you're too unqualified to be paid a decent wage, raising the lowest bar isn't going to mean you get more money, it just means you are below the employment line, and aren't worth being employed by anyone.
>retards incapable of understanding consequence
>>70958893
Fact is, We're fighting for a Cookie's crumbles while Wall street feast on the box. Why don't we increase that electrical engineer wage, Instead of pitting off the burger flipper who has an hard time paying the rent VS The Electrical engineer who'll pull out the "I work harder and we get the same wage" Thing? Take some cookies from the box and we all get bigger crumbles.
#doingmathwithcookies
>>70956199
You earn 1$ and pay 1$ to live. Now you earn 2$ but now costs rose to 2$. Money don't grow on trees.
1/1 = 2/2
Nuffi changed. Cut Jews out so there are no leeches on the economy and everything will get better.
Raising wages is necessary, but also all profits should be redistributed to the workers in a social dividend.
>>70962576
>Have you considered things that don't have a wage related cost (e.g. real estate) won't be affected as much?
Everyone is making more money, and the supply of land remains the same. Real estate prices naturally go up because everyone is willing to spend X% of their money on their land/a home.
You don't need an econ degree to understand this, retard.
>>70963418
based tea nigger
They will spend it all on drugs (Mexican economy) or cheap plastic crap (Chinese economy)
want more money?
it's really very simple
find a way to measurably increase your value to your employer
then ask for more money
>>70956199
These people will still be putting the same value into the economy they were putting into the economy before they were given a 2x raise. Are they doing twice the work? Why should they be allowed to pull out twice the amount of energy from the system than before? It wont work.
Its little more than welfare.
>>70959771
I feel like this is a rare flag, this may literally be the first time I've seen Belarus on /pol/, did Putin just let you have Internet or something
>>70963748
cucked american queer
>>70962576
> he thinks you need a meme degree to understand price changes
Stay bluepilled.
>>70956775
ahh the inflation meme argument
price levels are endogenous, the money supply and velocity have strong short run interactions with the economy
>post Keynesian master race here
there are other better reasons minimum wages are a bad idea, mainly pricing niggers and useless people out of the labor market and forcing them into permanent unemployment and dependency
>>70956761
To be devil's advocate,
The US doesn't exactly save money.
Our marginal propensity to consume is above 90%
One of the highest in the world.
Obviously some people save, but relying on consumerism can potentially work for us.
One issue is that the argument is presented like people spend their grocery store wages at the grocery store.
People who care about minimum wage buy iphones, alcohol, tobacco, drugs, video games, car accessories, fast food.
>>70964085
>cucked
at least we work for our wages and keep what we earn, as well as actually fighting for our freedom
>>70956199
>what is inflation
>>70956199
this may have been true 50 years ago when entrepreneurs still had morals and actually cared for the well-being of their country
but today a lot of businesses have become so greedy that this kind of logic no longer applies
>>70956199
and then when people realize workers have enough money to afford everything they'll slowly raise their prices to get more profits
INFLATION DUCON
>>70959523
This is literally how the world as a whole functions.
OP:why don't we just print more money? :DDd
>>70956199
>What is Detroit giving 40-50 dollar wages to auto workers
>What is inflation
>>70964424
And those who need Minimum wage: The food bank AND The grocery store on payday.
>>70964675
Germany tried after WWI, And it was a blessing in disguise: We got Adolf at the end of the line.
>>70962576
ya dingus, market prices shift depending on what people are willing to pay for a certain item. Raising minimum wage will increase what people are willing to pay, and so prices go up. this is actually an efficient social utility as there will rarely be shortagages of any given commodity if supply and demand are left to an unfettered free market.
so it doesnt do anything, raising the minimum wage, besides making the dollar worth less. countries like Venezuela tried minimum wages too. didnt work because prices kept rising, so they took the next logical step and added price caps. now look at them.
>>70964897
>implying it was germany's fault that their economy went to shit after ww2
What happens to the $15 waged jobs after the hike?
>>70965130
They become minimum wage jobs
>>70964233
>endogenous prices
>WHEN THERE'S LITERALLY FREE MONEY
>>70956199
why not just raise minimum wage to 100 dollars then?
>>70964024
Hello and welcome. Remember to lurk more and think before you post.
>>70956585
or
>wages go up
>illegal immigrants take jobs becasue they compete at a market wage
>bernie supporters are wondering why there jobs were being taken by ppl who work harder for less money
pplease raise my wage daddy, a government for the people, by the people shouldn't be able to just guarantee income to all it's citizens, that's just plain wrong! communism!! anti-christian values!!!
>>70959722
Rare enough for me
Can we just have a federal mandate that anyone currently being paid less than $50,000 per year gets a raise instead of just the loser dregs making minimum wage? That might go a long way toward ensuring that there's actually still a middle class.
>>70956199
by this logic, why not raise the minimum wage to a billion dollars an hour?
>>70956199
The businesses such as those providing food, clothing, and gifts, also have to raise the wages of their workers, and to do so they will be required to either fire their workers or raise the price of their products, meaning that if the price of the products rise then an increase in wages will not provide an increase in buying power
