Can I get a redpill on PTSD?
Before WWI, warriors would go out and fight, up close and personal. Conquering and the thrill of risking your life and killing your enemy was something that soldiers enjoyed, and once they got home, they felt pride and honor and even after losing they couldn't wait to go out and get more. Then after WWI, we started hearing about soldiers being traumatized, psychologically damaged, having mental health issues, and going insane.
What changed? When and why did soldiers become such pussies?
>>70261569
When you started to be killed by things you can't see or people you can't stop. Gas, nukes, artillery shells, disease ect ect. Even the romans gave people shit for poisoning cities and such; saying it was against the gods and nature.
>>70261569
Yeah, cause you know what you're talking about.
An arrow and a sword don't have the some effect as weeks of continuous mortar fire in a trench
http://youtu.be/hSp8IyaKCs0
>>70261569
Pretty sure the rise of PTSD coincides pretty nicely with the mechanization of war.
>>70261569
people were stupid as fuck back then and were closer to ape IQ, of course they didnt care about senseless violence as much
>>70261569
>they felt pride and honor and even after losing they couldn't wait to go out and get more
Idealised fantasy that never existed.
War is sweet to those who have no experience of it,
but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach.
-Pindar 450 BC
War has never been a sunshine story. War got more brutal with the advent og modern artillery and guns.
>>70261569
I recognize this picture from that Defiler Wings game.
>>70261569
PTSD was rampant back then, even more so than today.
>>70261569
Look up shellshock and the Tavistock Institute.
All about perspective...
>>70263251
Kek
>>70263251
Absolute
>>70263370
Mad man
WWI/WW2 you started to see more people from cities who didn't have to grow up killing their own dinner and dealing with the hardships of rural life. Of course this is a huge general statement, but I credit the increased attention to PTSD issues because of that
>>70261569
people were just as traumatized by war in the past as they are today.
youre getting your source from hollywood aint ya bud?
>>70261830
>>70262532
This.
PTSD victims tend to get paranoid and have panic-attacks when they hear a plane fly by or shit like that.
>>70263533
I was thinking along those lines. People who join the military these days grew up coddled and not as "hard" as those in the past, so being thrust into this kill or be killed struggle is more of a jump from what they're used to.
>>70262432
That about nails it. But also, thanks to war trauma we got The Beatles!
>>70261569
Medieval times were not like the fantasy you read in books. PTSD always existed.
In ww1 it got worse due to explosions. Gas. Mass killings as technology grew more and more brutal. Things the human mind struggles to deal with.
Death in the medieval ages compares little to seeing 50 men beside you. And then in 3 seconds.of artillery fire they are all gone and their blood is painting your face
>>70261569
>What changed
The weapons of war did, and drastically so.
>When and why did soldiers become such pussies
It was but bait all along.
>>70261569
I think it's more that before WW1 nobody gave a fuck about the mental health of peasant rabble.
>>70261569
Heres some reasons
>a lot less noise pre modern warfare
>lower chance of survival before modern warfare, so there's no traumas from wounds
>priest serves as your psychologist and makes the deed of killing moral
>battles were often fought on prediscussed places, so not a lot of night or surprise attacks
>no constant fear of dying, which causes shell shock
>enemies are mostly in sight, which is comforting in itself
>no constant combat, the marching and waiting (which could take months) between battles gave time to deal with emotional stress
Scariest thing on medieval battlefields were probably the horses, which mostly struck after the battle was over.
>>70261569
Aside from the concussive effects that modern munitions have on the brain I would agree that soldiers act like bitches now.
They cry about the things they've done but act like that isn't what war is. You signed up so don't whine when you're expected to do what you've been trained to do.
Also the percentage based vet disability system is a sham. You hurt your knee after discharge? 20% disabled. Got hurt in combat but healed and can still work like anyone else? 50% disabled.
I respect military as I come from a largely military family but I can't help but also see them as welfare queens.
>>70261569
OK so first of all, warriors probably DID suffer from PTSD. Have you ever read "Odysseus in America" comparing the behaviors of Odysseus to the problems PTSD sufferers have after coming home from Vietnam? Odysseus probably suffered from PTSD. PTSD is a physiological problem in the brain, it might be caused by stress, physical damage, or a combination of the two, but it has probably always been a problem for some people. Combat is a prime way to get PTSD, as is other violent behavior.
>>70263748
So arrows, sword, shields are the same as guns, jets, mortars, gas, and nukes? And new soldiers are just pussies that can't take some war?
>>70261569
1) The speed that information could travel, and the importance that it had to the entirety of society, had both increased to incredible heights.
2) The speed of travel had also drastically increased, meaning there was little if any ability for soldiers to readjust on the long journey home.
3) Advances in medicine meant that those who would suffer from their experiences were more likely than ever to survive.
PTSD and trauma has always existed, it's just much more visible.
Also, most importantly, PTSD isn't as prevalent as people think, and a study into US military sufferers of PTSD concluded that almost all of the sufferers had suffered abuse or trauma as children; either sexual or physical violence from family, or violent experiences with peers and strangers e.g. experienced a robbery or murder.
>>70261569
Iv seen one thing that claimed that PTSD did have some mentions throughout history, but for the most part wasn't there because of two reasons. First off war wasn't industrialized like it was in ww1 and ww2, meaning the majority of people going to war actively chose to do it. And two the long marches between the fighting and coming home probably acted therapeutically, as appose to more modern situations when you go form a intense retinue to do nothing all day in a span of 24 hours. And then on top my own personal theory is that they use to deal with death and gore a lot more back then, they would see people die from sicknesses and see animals killed much more regularly then the average person today.
>>70264036
Perhaps, but do you really think Knights cowered in a corner upon hearing a sword unsheath when they got back like Marines do when they hear a car backfire?
>this is what americans actually believe
If you think mythos and legends are accurate descriptions of humans and their society you are legit retarded
>>70261569
Before battles would last at most a day. Now they last weeks and months. Also its no longer personal you just watch men be cut down by machine gun like a scythe through wheat.
>>70262244
Yes they do.
I've never been to war but men used to be badass back in the day, killing mudlsimes and shit xD
Now we have Nu-males fighting our battles with their fake "PTSD" for >MUH BENEFITS
Cant wait for Trump to end this.
>>70264339
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/troubled-childhood-may-predict-ptsd/
And here's the source for the hypothesised link between childhood trauma and PTSD
It's probably both things. Modern warfare is often more traumatic and ugly, and men are bigger pussies than they used to be.
>>70263251
I want to have such positive attitude towards things like this guy
>>70264460
I wouldn't know but I'm sure some did. And nobody would care.
>>70264569
>Also its no longer personal you just watch men be cut down by machine gun like a scythe through wheat.
That's part of my point. Killing someone is less traumatic if it's less personal. Mowing men down from 500 yards disconnects you, unlike slashing someone down with a sword while looking at their face and watching them bleed out and choke on their own blood.
>>70264460
>hearing a sword unsheath
So you DO get all your historical knowledge from movies and video games.
>le modern humans are wussies meme
PTSD has always existed,they just didnt have a medical name for it because psychology didnt really become a science until the 1800s before that it was handled by philosophers and nobody gave a fuck about mental health
>>70261569
People being tortured by things that happened to them in war has always been the case. I guess no one just used to make a song and dance about it because it was such a common occurrence.
There are loads of accounts of people even being tortured by the "ghosts of those they'd killed on the battlefield" which sounds like fucking PTSD to me.
>>70264486
They're a young country, it's a bit unfair to judge them on time periods their culture had no part in because naturally they will not be taught much of it.
This thread has been showing up so much lately. Your claims that previous generation soldiers did not suffer PTSD are completely unfounded. These things weren't discussed nearly to the effect they were today and anyone who would have went through it is dead, thus it seems it wasn't that way. You're like one of those people who prefers older music because all the shit has been sorted through and only the popular songs are played.
Because WWI changed everything you had massive casualties and had to fight in conditions no one else has ever had to deal with before.
>>70264661
>>70264339
Uhhh. For some reason my post with source got deleted?
Here it is again.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/troubled-childhood-may-predict-ptsd/
>In fact, the onset of PTSD was not predicted by traumatic war experiences but rather by childhood experiences of violence, especially punishment severe enough to cause bruises, cuts, burns and broken bones.
>PTSD sufferers were also more likely to have witnessed family violence and to have experienced physical attacks, stalking or death threats by a spouse.
Also, I made a mistake, the study was about a mixed group of Danes and Brits.
>>70261569
basically warriors were well respected back then
now they come back to cucked societies that judge them and challenges their perception as something archaic and wrong. the inability to find balance of these two worlds is causing psychological stress
>>70261569
They didn't... Knights used to get PTSD on a scale few these days get.
>this thread
Time for bed, welp.
>>70261830
This is it 100%. When you can see your foe, sword in hand, it's one thing. When he's a mile away with a sniper rifle, not so much. It breaks our instinctive danger sense when your friend's head just isn't there any more when you were talking shit about Age of Empires 2 just a few seconds ago.
>>70262589
That's not true. IQs have been decreaseinng in the last century
>>70261569
you are retarded and do not understand war, now or then
>the past was just like the movies describe
>romanticism never existed all old tales of war should be seen as non fiction
>LOTR is historically accurate
fucking christ OP, when are you turning thirteen? 4 years from now?
A big cause of it seeming more common in the modern world is the relatively recent advent of widespread literacy. For most of human history the average soldier was illiterate and didn't record their experiences in war. So the world just doesn't get to read about what a common soldier experienced.
>>70264902
True but imagine you are the soldier walking into the machine gun fire and people all around you are getting torn to shreds by it. Coupled with shells which are blowing off peoples limbs as they advance. It is a terrifying weapon to go up against.
>>70261830
first post best post
WW1 was the first industrial war. The horrors would've made even 19th century soldiers sick.
>>70261569
>What changed?
Sustained heavy artillery bombardment for literally weeks straight.
It's impossible to sleep, you can't hear, you physically feel every concussion, mud, the air is literally rending around you from the force, you get to see people turn into pink mist, mud, you drown in mud, you shit in the mud, you eat in the mud, mud.
There is a difference between being summoned by your liege once in a decade, marching to some field followed by fighting for an hour or two before you either die or go home and prolonged exposure to the threat of getting btfo by stray bullet, artillery, gas attack, air strike or any other wonderful invention at literally any minute for 7 days a week two or three years straight.
Most of the ptsd is not caused by the stress of killing someone per se, its from the horrible conditions of modern warfare in general.
>>70264460
>hearing a sword unsheath
unsheathing a sword doesn't make a fucking sound you dumb cunt
>>70261569
>Can I get a redpill on PTSD?
>Before WWI, warriors would go out and fight, up close and personal.
Symptoms of PTSD is documented by ancient writers to have occured in Roman legionaries.
>>70261569
Before the civil war, battles were only fought in open fields usually scheduled and had a sense of honor. People weren't getting bombed and shot at for upwards of a year straight. PTSD from war doesn't come from fighting in a couple battles. It comes from fighting a battle for months and months and months on end.
Worst thread on the board right now
>>70264661
>>70265140
Weird. Refreshed and it now appears as if it wasn't deleted in the first place
>>70265142
>>70265166
I think it may very well be a combo of things like this, perhaps a big contributor can also be that the way in which wars are fought since WWI have changed very dramatically. It simply isn't the same any more. But you know, we used to not talk about gay, retarded, or trans people too back in those days. None of these things were a significant problem to society back then because we didn't give them the time of day.
Just like anita sarkeesian and other wastes of space, they would not be issues if we simply didn't acknowledge their degeneracy.
>>70261569
Because wars went from decisive fast battles to tactics based around destroying the moral of your enemy. Biggest effect probs being the endless shelling or cracks of gunfire. Anyone can have a hard time not cracking under a months worth of it.
ITT: Loads of faggots with no battle experience nor mental health expertise.
>>70265594
>>70265142
>ptsd is caused by gay rights
oh boy
>>70265066
the smiling man is a sniper.
>>70265745
Fuck you, I dropped a fucking source on an actual study, not my fault everyone wants to wank about their personal theory about how the history of warfare went
>>70265550
get to bed lad
>>70261569
>warriors before were never traumatized
Wew lad, that's a mighty strong claim. If anything there just wasn't as much rigor in studying soliders mentality until recently. I'm guessing (since I'm not going to claim this is true) that if yoy read diaries and letters from civil war solidiers you would find evidence of people suffering emotional trauma from their actions. The language they use to talk about it would have been different, but I don't think "lots of people just became pussies one day" is a good hypothesis
>>70261569
PTSD is bullshit in itself. I've experienced death up close, with people being torn to pieces. It's a shock to the brain, and you'll never forget all the impressions you picked up while you experienced it.
If you aren't careful, I suppose you could let it eat you up and fuck with your mind every day. The trick is to be honest about what you've experienced and to talk about it with someone who was there and went through the same thing you did.
I personally feel like PTSD is a social construct people worship, but I could be wrong. I lose sleep from time to time over what I experienced, but it's not enough to ruin my day or make me incapable of leading a normal life.
>>70265850
You first m8
>>70261569
PTSD existed way before WW1.
>>70265212
are you seriously telling me people who used to shit in the streets and fight each other with swords and rocks are smarter than motherfuckers who made stealth bombers and robots?
>>70263251
based Tommy
>>70261569
Most people died of wound infections after the battle, not during. Pretty shitty tbqh. Also tons of soldiers died of diseases for poor hygiene and lack of toilets.
>>70265861
>The trick is to be honest about what you've experienced and to talk about it with someone who was there and went through the same thing you did.
No
Never talk about it squash it down and make it go away.
>>70261569
>What changed? When and why did soldiers become such pussies?
War became a lot more brutal and traumatizing. Also you can't tell me that PTSD wasn't a factor with Civil War vets.
>>70264460
Yeah they probably had some form of what youre describing. Just look at the actions of a lot of 50+ year old men in history, a lot of them did insane shit at pretty young ages.
PTSD is a problem caused by the domestication or safe guarding of society. How many adults do you think have seen someone die in real life or on the internet. People are just too soft now. When they go to war its a huge shock to the system and as society becomes more faggoty more shock in indulging natural human instinct has become.
tldr we've become idealists rather than realists.
>>70266104
Talk to someone who went there.
Not a "therapist" or psychiatrist, but someone that can actually provide a social net
>>70261569
>Before WWI, warriors would go out and fight, up close and personal.
Bows, disease, catapults, burning oil, attacks from the back...
>Conquering and the thrill of risking your life and killing your enemy was something that soldiers enjoyed
Forcing you out of your home when you were 14 and sending you to fight other 14 year old boys because some lord was offended. If, by luck, you managed to survive the campaign, the lord would disband the army in some far away land, give you 2 or 3 coins. Back then there were no maps and no indications. Many soldies never actually managed to return home because they didn't know how.
>and once they got home, they felt pride and honor
Yeah, it must really make someone proud of gutting some scared shitless little kid or a handicapped old man.
>Then after WWI, we started hearing about soldiers being traumatized, psychologically damaged, having mental health issues, and going insane.
WW1 was horrible. Farm boys going to the trenches, were they couldn't sleep for days straight was too much for them.
Go to bed little kid.
![lZKaElh[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/ehfi9vX.png "lZKaElh[1].png")
>>70262783
>War got more brutal with the advent og modern artillery and guns
Nothing will EVER, EVER beat phalanx warfare.
>>70261569
>Before WWI, warriors would go out and fight, up close and personal. Conquering and the thrill of risking your life and killing your enemy was something that soldiers enjoyed
A meme you're getting from modern media. Most of them were conscripted farmhands who were only there under threat of death from their ruler. War literally never changes.
>>70264970
>>70264970
there is also those who get shattered because of what they them self did. They never knew they could be as brutal and stuff so their whole concept of what a human is is torn to pieces
>>70261569
what we now call PTSD has always been around.
Is seeing your friends get impaled, slowly watching your enemies die at your hands and being in a cluster fuck of swords, bodies and death any better than what we have today?
http://news.discovery.com/history/archaeology/medieval-knights-ptsd-111220.htm
>>70261569
>and once they got home, they felt pride and honor and even after losing they couldn't wait to go out and get more
Bollocks.
>>70261569
soldiers with swords didn't have to charge through a muddy field facing machine fire and high caliber howitzer fire
I can't remember where I read it but one historian tried to give an alternative history to the brutality of WWI.
He argued, if the war was truly as miserable what was described by the war poets, why did the war effort not just collapse? Why was there no mass desertions?
The historian argues that the as the war went on, it fueled a lot of bitterness and soldiers lusted for the chance to kill the enemy. In fact there were many soldiers who wrote that the war was the greatest experience of their lives - one of which was Hitler. The war wasn't miserable, it was ferocious and incited the deepest anger that man could have for another man. Soldiers were on a sort of high just to get into that trench and kill each other.
>>70261569
http://universitypost.dk/article/medieval-knights-were-stressed-out
>>70266296
oops meant to post that pic.
>>70265197
what happened anon
Wow look at all those studies done on returning medieval soldiers
>>70261569
War was no longer glorious, war became without human contact, staring at the waves of bullets, the crack of shells on your bunker. You do not know when you will die, you die among the endless sea if bodies. All Quiet on the Western Front does a good job and conveying this
>>70261569
I've read about the cases of medieval knights screaming at night and freaking out at the sound of metal banging.
>>70261569
Most battles only a few percent would die and then everyone would run away and you might never even hit anyone with your sword.
>>70264460
>hearing a sword unsheath
Someone needs to watch their Lindybeige.
Compare the total number of major battles fought in the 100 Years War with the number of major battles fought in WW1, and then compare how long those battles lasted, how much combat the soldiers involved experienced in total, and how many died in those battles.
Soldiers in one war spent the majority of their time marching and fought in maybe one or two major battles in their lifetimes. Those battles typically lasted a number of hours and resulted a few hundred to a few thousand casualties. Soldiers in the other war spent weeks to months at a time in major combat that saw tens or even hundreds of thousands of casualties.
War industrialized and became a lot less about being a skilled warrior and more about skilled labor
It's relatively simple to operate equipment nowadays that more devastating than warriors of past generations could have ever possibly conceived of
The conception of the standing army makes being a soldier a lot less personal (it already wasn't really) and now you're just likely to die in an instant against something you'll never see and even if you did you likely couldn't stop
>>70261569
the shellshock you dumbass
>One of the first descriptions of PTSD was made by the Greek historian Herodotus. In 490 BCE he described, during the Battle of Marathon, an Athenian soldier who suffered no injury but became blind after witnessing the death of a fellow soldier.
>>70266296
flying around in space selling dope and recreational nukes disguised as a nun
>>70261569
PTSD is a myth. Mostly females and betas who never even saw conflict get "muh ptsd" and suicide. Article in Jama 2015 showed veterans with honorable discharge and 4 years of service were more stable than the general population even if they saw hard combat. The military rejects/ washouts with less than honorable discharge had 3-4x the rate of mental instability tho.
>>70266295
Most soldiers purposefully shot over the enemies head to scare them off since they didn't want to kill, it was a huge problem and the militaries of the world had to dramatically change their training to get soldiers to actually shoot each other. Of course there are going to be sociopathic people who love it but that's not 99% of people. No offense to Hitler of course as he's never done anything wrong and was probably just purposefully aiming for jews which is ok.
PTSD wasn't diagnosed until recently.
Also this >>70266449
PTSD comes from a sensory overload.
Clanging swords was about the loudest sound you used to hear.
Now you have bombs going off which can cause your ear drums to burst they're so loud.
Just perspective.
>>70265798
Slav fails to miss the point that something is not a problem until you acknowledge it.
But also, gay rights don;t cause ptsd? what, are you a cis scum bigot? You don't think that the struggles of LGBT didn't cause trauma? GTFO off mh board RRRRREEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>a bunch of fat losers judging men brave enough to fight for being paranoid after being shot at and blown up
>>70266653
Not to mention the whole christmas truce thing.
>>70264460
Knights did very little in war. They mostly did some cavalry charges and fought other knights.
>>70266606
>flying around in space selling dope and recreational nukes disguised as a nun
>disguised as a nun
kek I've literally no idea what game that is.
I don't even think I play it.
>>70265212
>IQs have been decreaseinng in the last century
IQ tests are renormed all the time to keep the IQ scores the same (white mean=100,sd=15). Raw scores on most subtests have been rising the last century (FLynn-effect) but this tendency stopped or even reversed in western countries.
>>70264569
Decisive battles were a really rare thing in medieval times. Most of the wars were mainly raids, sieges and skirmishes.
>>70266619
Reminder an American military veteran kills themselves EVERY SINGLE HOUR of every single day.
But yes PTSD is merely a myth now go die for Israel.
>>70266805
They also had very low casualty rates.
Most of the fighting and dying was done by common folk.
>>70266256
>Is seeing your friends get impaled, slowly watching your enemies die at your hands and being in a cluster fuck of swords, bodies and death any better than what we have today?
No, but public executions, duels, the way people were brought up, and being surrounded by death in general may have better prepared them for it.
>>70266606
wait, is it cybermancy ?
>>70261569
They had time on a boat going home to talk about shit that happened.
PTSD was always a thing, but warfare was also very common so it was pretty normalized. Read Odyssey bk 1-4, when Telemachus is interacting with some of the Trojan veterans, especially Menelaus, and you'll see pretty clear indications of PTSD. Culture had just normalized it.
Also, most of the issues with PTSD are about reintegration. When you have giant parades and are regarded as heroes, ala WWII, then you integrate back pretty well. When people spit on you and call you babykiller or just ignore you like they did in Korea, it's pretty hard to feel like you're back at home.
Also, going to a shithole jungle or a shithole sandland where you have no recognizable culture isn't particularly good for mental health. Fighting a war somewhere recognizable to you is generally better for your brain.
>>70266584
>blind
Seems legit.
>I can't go on a suicide bombing because i'm sick.
>>70266780
/thread
>>70267079
what
>>70267079
>literally blind
Probably meaning psychotic, having a delusion of being blind.
See "shell shock".
>>70267071
Veterans of the Korean war were pretty much ignored. Vietnam vets were the ones treated like shit.
Speaking for my own culture, the Maori, warfare was a near daily ritual in our lives. Men were raised from birth to be warriors, uttering a single sound of pain while having their full body tattoos carved out was a death sentence. Ritual cannibalism after battle was the norm. Women and children would be eviscerated and staked on spikes alive in conquered villages to please the gods. Society was divided into chiefs, commoners and slaves. The economy of all tribes was to raid, enslave and butcher the rest.
There's no time for PTSD in that.
Also, take extacy.
>>70261569
Maybe because we didnt have modern medicine back then dumbass
Civil war aoldiers had ptsd , you can go find examples from the napoleanic wars of similar symptoms
The bombs just led to incread closed head tbi's so worse and more common but people have been getting ptsd since the dawn of man
>>70266219
Except Roman manipular warfare.
>>70267181
> Epizelus, the son of Cuphagoras, an Athenian, was in the thick of the fray, and behaving himself as a brave man should, when suddenly he was stricken with blindness, without blow of sword or dart; and this blindness continued thenceforth during the whole of his after life. The following is the account which he himself, as I have heard gave of the matter: he said that a gigantic warrior, with a huge beard, which shaded all his shield, stood over against him; but the ghostly semblance passed him by, and slew the man at his side.
basically he narrowly escaped death but his fellow soldier was btfo
Honestly I think people expect to get PTSD and assume the symptoms subconsciously. Also other people expect you to have PTSD, when I got back from Afghan in 2011 I left the army and being a bores unemployed bum I started drinking a lot and everyone around me was saying "omg anon you have PTSD!", which I don't but it would have been very easy to go along with the sympathy and scapegoat for me being a waste of space.
Genuine PTSD still exists of course, but I tend to think the real cases are the guys who quietly hang themselves rather than loudly whine about war being hell
It's not true that everyone in the modern period was horrified by war. Many men loved (e.g., read what Ernst Junger had to say about his time as a front line soldier in WW1). Hitler also loved war, describing fighting as transcendent and war as "the ultimate experience".
>>70264460
Actually yes.
http://sciencenordic.com/violent-knights-feared-posttraumatic-stress
>>70261569
Neetbucks, Camo Edition.
>>70266450
lol
>>70261569
Probably has more to do with prolonged exposure to high stress over long periods, old battles were dynamic, fought and won/lost in a relatively quick space of time and retreat was an option.
Fast forward to long range firearms, artillery, mines, gas etc, non-uniformed enemy death can come from anywhere, any direction, any time of day from anyone until the brain can't handle any more and effectively shuts down/gets overloaded.
>>70267429
Oh yeah? Well if you were such bad-asses why didn't you kill all the abos and take over Australia huh?
>>70265861
>people respond to different events differently
It's not a fair assumption to say just because you're relatively okay the entire premise is bullshit. Every man has a breaking point and every mans is different.
>>70261830
>what is ancient\medieval artillery and archery
>>70266889
Meh. I'm a vet of the infantry. No one from my unit had problems. But then we don't allow women and weed out pussies before deployment. All the ptsd faggots I met were in the rear with the gear or got kicked out. Basically they were already crazy before even enlisting.
>>70267643
Too busy killing ourselves, at it to this day.
>>70266256
this, war has always been hell
PTSD is form the constant mental strain of modern war. there use to be down time,but in modern war 24/7 you could be shot,bombed,poisoned or maimed.
In ancient war you would go do those things and then go back to camp and get drunk or if siege you wait outside range of fire.
Also, I imagine the sounds, smells , and level of devastation are immensely worse.
>>70261569
WW1.
Lots of Krauts who fought in the Franco-Prussian War then later in WW1 described the enormous shift in the battlefield experience. It was like a completely different version of war then what people had ever experienced. The gas, the machine gun blind runs, mortar attacks etc.
>>70264902
killing is more personal now for your average infantry man. they did a study after either ww2 or korea and found out that people had been intentionally missing because they didn't want to kill someone. that's when they started moden basic training. in the past you stood in a formation and did what everyone around you did. even if you ended up stabbing someone, there was a good chance he would walk away at the end and only die from infection a week later. now you're looking though an optic when you shoot someone so you know for a fact that you killed him.
>>70267721
Something with less range than modern small arms let alone anything in his list.
>>70266989
>>70266820
Transcendence, the spess roguelike-like. Star Control 2 meets Nethack, kinda.
Of course "disguised as a nun" is mostly just a Heavy Metal reference, although you are essentially something like a Sister of Battle (with quasi divine powers) you get by donating slaves to space nunneries, so it SORT of fits.
its been worked on for like 12 years a la Dwarf Fortress
>>70267585
/thread
>>70267585
>http://sciencenordic.com/violent-knights-feared-posttraumatic-stress
More proof white people are different than non-whites like a certain religion chopping heads off somewhere.
>>70263533
>>70263748
Nice memes.
>>70267585
>“His name was Geoffroi de Charny, and he was one of the most respected knights of his age. The book, about the life of a knight, included the psychological consequences of being a knight – and they strongly resemble the symptoms of PTSD.”
>>70267535
I'm talm bout brutility here
>The crush of men would also prevent the formation from withdrawing or retreating, which would result in much higher casualties than is recorded. The speed at which this would occur would also end the battle very quickly, instead of prolonged battles lasting hours.
Phalanx warfare was inhumanly brutal. And remember the Spartans were the KINGS of that. It speaks volumes about them.
The Romans however, were genius with their quincux formation.
>>70266653
I remember seeing a study that showed most people claiming PTSD in the US Army were never even outside of the states.
>>70267565
This. Us Vets often just want to party and chase pussy for a bit when we get out. The ptsd thing is mostly a way for already unstable people to get out early and maybe scam some disability. True PTSD isn't actually that common. Sux tho because everybody thinks we have it when job hunting comes around.
>>70261569
>and killing your enemy was something that soldiers enjoyed, and once they got home, they felt pride and honor and even after losing they couldn't wait to go out and get more.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
no
>>70267858
>In ancient war you would go do those things and then go back to camp and get drunk or if siege you wait outside range of fire.
Pretty much this really, in the old times you were either fighting or not and in down-time/at barracks you were pretty safe.
In modern times, again you're also fighting or your not BUT you're always a target
>>70261569
They probably got PTSD before that too.
Just that, believe it or not, before psychology was a thing they just didn't diagnose it.
Imagine a grizzled old warrior in europe at the time with violent thoughts and horrors from the war stuck in his mind. They had PTSD but people had no concept of it.
Soldiers in ww1 were not bigger pussies than earlier generations, but war had never been done at that scale or with the means used. It was just that we could better diagnose these soldiers, especially since because the war was at such a massive scale we could also see a lot of people with PTSD.
It's probably something special to be in a cold trench for months, explosions around you, constant calls to battle where your friends are gunned down, where you are wounded, tired, far from home, risk your life every day and night for that matter, you may have a grenade fly down your trench and destroy everyone around you.
I think the joke here is some fat neckbeard calling these men pussies.
also
>even after losing they couldn't wait to go out and get more
War was romanticized during the 19th century. First of all, I doubt the levies used before particularly enjoyed being forced to go out to war, far from their families with an almost certain death sentence.
The pride you talk about is nothing more than romanticized bullshit that came along when nationalism blossomed as a thing.
>>70264596
This has to be bait.
>I've never been to war or known anyone from the Roman era but let me tell you how they were and how they acted in combat and how we now act in combat
You've got to be shitting me son
>>70261569
The main difference between modern warfare (since the first world war) and pre-modern warfare is the never ending threat of death. During the era of melee combat, soldiers would cycle during battles that lasted usually 12 hours, whereas in modern warfare the threat of death is always present. This is what truly sets the two eras of combat different, and the extremely long periods of danger (airstrikes, gas attacks, etc.) is what produces ptsd.
>>70267585
>research
>researcher
>no title of, journal, or link to study
>>70264596
What kind of Nu-Male would join the military on their own accord? Your logic isn't adding up, lurk some more redditfag
>>70261569
80% of modern PTSD cases are attention whores and disability leeches. There is evidence that explosives shock the nerves and brain and cause real PTSD, hence why so many IED victims and WWI and WWII vets got it.
>>70263251
Grandpa?
They had tons of PTSD back then, but they called it Shell Shock and didn't understand it or know how to properly diagnose it.
It much like how more kids have "autism" today because we know more about behavior and diagnosis for the spectrum
>>70267965
Oh and "civilization".
People with PTSD like symptoms back in ancient times were just seen as, well, kooky. You weren't expected to re-integrate and act like everything was fine.
After WW2 the basic instruction was Don't Talk About It, Forget About It.
They had also alleviated a lot of the pressures that caused WW1 vets to be such a mess.
There are just plain pussies of course. Like the army intelligence officer who got PTSD from studying ISIS videos.
>>70268281
Yeah you put it very nicely. I've read about landmines too and fuck that shit seems horrible.
>>70264075
>Also the percentage based vet disability system is a sham.
I work in medicine and I was in the army, this is disgustingly true.
>>70261569
Atheism.
>>70268369
who's that rooster raiser ?
>>70262777
/thread
>>70268535
also jews
>>70261569
Soldiers back then did get PTSD too, it's just that medicine only recently evolved enough that we can recognize it.
>>70261830
Being overwhelmed by gigantic armies and being tossed into meatgrinder melees will do that too.
>>70261830
I also thought it could do with people back then having more faith in the causes they were fighting for.
>>70268438
>Like the army intelligence officer who got PTSD from studying ISIS videos
wat
Worse things are posted on 4chan daily, with entire threads dedicated to it. This guy has got to be an attention whore. I refuse to believe this is true
>>70261830
This. That is why PTSD was originally called shellshock from WW I. Modern Artillery changed everything.
>>70268747
It's a common disability scam.
>>70268747
I think he means he had to analyse them repeatedly for clues like location, rank or identity.
I'm not sure if it would give you PTSD, but looking at beheadings all day, repeating, rewinding and analysing them would probably not leave him the healthiest state of mind.
I'd probably want to shoot all muslims on sight if I had that as my day job.
>>70265142
Fucking this exactly.
If we take a classic war, your peasants walk miles to get to the battleground, once it was over and the adrenaline rush was fulfilled they walked back with the rest of the army and settle down throughout the trip back, get to talk to the rest of the army and come to terms.
They finally come home and fuck the bar wenches, get heralded as heroes, drink and settle down.
The boys that went to Nam, fought in a shitty jungle in a completely different climate they never experienced in America, were conscripts that didn't want to fight, they have unclear orders and no explanation on why they were fighting for some gook's freedom when they don't even want it.
They come home after fighting a shitty war and get rocks thrown at them by fucking hippies. They get no treatment and have to find work.
If society didn't change the name from shell shock - which is a perfect description of what occurred to your brain. To PTSD, a soft sounding word that TEENAGE girls use to get attention when boys don't show them attention.
Fuck this retarded media
>>70268002
Study was after WW2 and was sort of debunked. It WAS to do with conditioning though.
Basically it took WW2 soldiers longer to get up to speed and efficiency because they were waiting on peers or authority to OK acting. They were hesitant to pull the trigger until they "knew" it was acceptable. After that they were all good.
Now they get that drilled into them in basic. Live fire, constant drills. So that when they get there they aren't learning on the fly or "working up to it".
Sort of like how a boxer takes hits in training so he's not a mess when he first takes a punch to the face in the ring.
>>70261569
>Throughout history paintings were commissioned and stories written to make war look glorious in order to get more recruits
>The propaganda was so good that 800 years later some fat neckbeard believes wholeheartedly that a day on a medieval battlefield was a fun day out.
Some people are easily led I suppose.
>>70268693
yeah because your average illiterate 12th century peasant is passionate and excited about dying because his liege is feeling insulted by his second cousin
>>70268197
The phalanx was outdated by time Rome was becoming a power. Roman battle lines could easily out maneuver a phalanx and cause chaos before it could regroup. I'm not 100% sure but I think they demonstrated this against Macedonia. It was widely regarded as invincible during the height of the Greek States though
>>70268884
Its also how easy travel is like you said.
They had time to come to terms and return to their homes after.
Now; they fly home and suddenly they're in a world that can't understand what they went through, with people completely neutral or even hateful of what they've done.
In the space of days.
I wish I could find it ,but I read article somewhere that suggested that PTSD is the similar to a condition Meth addicts get after years of abuse when they stop doing MEth .
They deplete and use up the amygdala response system by being JACKED the fuck up all the time. And being jacked also heightens emotional responses and memories are made and hardwired in such times.
IN other words being it's a combination of things fucking PTSD patients up. They remember all that shit and have ran so long over their normal threshold it takes years for them to recover if not driving them insane before they recover.
>>70261569
Hunting prey != being shelled by artilery or being bombed by a plane, also seeing your dear friends explode into human shrapnel is also quite disconcerting to a beginner "soldier".
>>70267965
Also, this is what made British forces so effective early on despite tiny numbers. They had a professional army with a lot of modern battlefield experience and unconventional warfare under their belt going in. They had dealt with the machine gun and snipers before. The Germans and French hadn't and it freaked them out.
>>70261569
PTSD just wasn't as well documented in the past. I'm sure there were probably a few peasent men at arms that had trouble mentally functioning after experiencing the confusion and fear of battle. Imagine having cavalry charge yoy. You'd shit yourself.
Even before that, I'm sure plenty of people were traumatised by things like the Civil war in America.
>>70269183
Oh sorry, i thought this was about ancient hunt, but applies to ancient warfare too.
Ancient warfare was fucking FAIR compared to today.
>>70265142
Expanding on this, warriors were the core citizens of many nations and states in the melee era, granted a comfy wage as well as loot. Now, soldiers are paid what ~25k? Warriors went from being the top of the societal class system to the bottom and are currently used as pawns. Disappointing really
>>70266279
The fuck are you saying nigger? Soldiers back in the Napoleon age had way more massive balls. Marching in line right at the enemy's cannons and constant rifle fire in your direction is not a joke
its a subtle
>"muh viking heritage whispers to me" thread
we see this all the time on /his/, it goes hand in hand with denying ptsd and "muh born in the wrong generation" bullshit.
>>70268281
It's also something actual Generals wrote about BEFORE WW1, warning their leaders and politicians that a total European war was going to be hell on earth and nothing like the Napoleonic era, due to the modern weaponry available. The Russians tried for a long time to get everyone to agree to "fight fair" because it wasn't a secret what would happen once these weapons were let out onto the battlefield.
>Be OP
>Travel Back in time to the medieval era
>convince people to let me become a knight
>spend years training because I'm a fat fuck and never fought a person in my life
>finally time for war
>get in shiny armor and hoisted onto horse
>I think to myself, "can't wait to kill the enemy in honorable combat!"
>Horse dies in battle
>fall to the ground
>can't get up
>peasant from the opposing army runs up behind me and stabs me through the back of my neck in my armor
>die like a bitch
>last thoughts are of me perplexed why I wasn't bested in single combat and died honorably with my ancestors looking down at me with pride.
War was always hell, if you think that pre-WW1 warfare would've been exciting and fun then you should fuck honestly read a history book and not just watch movies and play video games.
>>70261830
Fippy bippy
>>70268884
>were conscripts that didn't want to fight
Most of the men who fought in Vietnam were volunteers, 3/4 if I'm not mistaken.
>>70261569
Artillery and tanks.
>>70269398
They still spent most of their time marching or camping with only having to fight once in a while. Constant stress of modern warfare is pretty big deal.
>>70261569
Industrialized warfare and the ability to kill from afar. You never know if computer-run artillery will blow you and your friends away from 100 miles away with precision that has 2 feet of error, instead of just worrying about whether or not you'll win a swordfight. ALSO, PTSD DID EXIST BACK THEN, you're speaking from a fairy-land told in the Iliad or whatever old story that never actually existed. You look at biographies of Roman soldiers and they had PTSD. Medieval Age, the soldiers weren't any better, and don't believe the FICTIONAL tales you hear about soldiers being able to kill 1000s without feeling a thing.
Unless it's Simo Hayha. Then believe that.
>>70269398
You'd be surprised what constant drilling can make you do
>>70268621
>1 German flank in WW1 made up of conscripted men is more than double the size of the Roman militry at it's peak.
>lose more in a day than the Romans lost in 2 decades
WW1 was retarded as shit.
>>70268873
That's exactly what his job was.
It's still seems like a pretty spurious claim.
>>70269522
makes me wish we could fight like our ancestors did, none of this super technological bullshit. You don't need nearly as much skill today as they did
>>70269370
wars were fought by peasants that only became soldiers when it was needed
even in most of the greek city states there was no warrior caste and the few that were indeed professional soldiers rarely formed the core of society
>>70261569
>psychological trauma from warfare is new
You've never killed before.
You've never watched friends die.
I suffered from and then overcame PTSD.
it was not fun but I suppose it gave me a different perspective on life.
Someone else in this thread said "every man has a breaking point". Mine was probably lower than average. In the eyes of some here, that makes me weak.
>>70269966
From Rome onwards, professional armies where very common in the western world
>>70270044
Albeit undeniably being terrible experience that fucks you up, research suggests that is actually not the primary cause of majority of PTSD cases.
>>70268535
despite that the vast majority of those soldiers being Christian? Explain.
>>70269966
what are...
>spartans
>vikings
>European knights
>Huns
>Mongols
etc
>>70270180
I am not claiming retinues did not exist, but they rarely formed majority of the fighting force and they were far from being core of society.
There is no honor in having your guts ripped by shrapnel, vomiting your lungs due to effects of gas attack, being burned alive or just shitting yourself to death from dysantery
>>70269136
I've read about something similar with prisoners. They become accustomed to violent, high stress situations and can't relax or focus unless they re-engage in it. They've been conditioned to always be in fight or flight mode 24/7. Something that's minor to us like a fender bender gets them dumping huge amounts of adrenaline and reaponding way out of proportion. That's why a lot of them prefer to be back in the violent, high stress situations where their responses are appropriate.
And then there are those who simply enjoy the adrenaline response. People throw themselves off buildings or out of planes for excitement. War would fill a similar role for some people.
>>70261569
>What changed?
Well, the name changed from "Shellshock" to PTSD.
>When and why did soldiers become such pussies?
Never, it's humanity.
Anybody who thinks like OP does about ancient warfare is a dipshit.
>>70269523
>Read a history book
I suggest you do so, you fat fucking pig.
If you were rich enough to afford plate armour (which was light enough to climb onto a horse in, dance in, whatever you want), then you would also be riding a barded warhorse, which means that the horse is also armoured.
You would easily be able to get up after falling, unless the horse crushed your leg.
Keep in mind that a charging warhorse has the same impact as a car, keep in mind that knights charged en masse, and that you would be expected, as a knight, to kill at least fifteen footmen to be respectable, and conclude that you are certainly a mongoloid, mutt, murk bastard mouthing off about things you know nothing about.
Pretty sure I read somewhere that a majority of PTSD isn't necessary the trauma of the psyche, but the trauma of the concussive shock waves that fuck with the brain. This "shellshocking" gives more chance for brain damage or abnormalities. Similar thing with professional football players.
medival battles were basically like larps, everybody would stop the second a noble got injured, and nobles on both sides would come together to hold a funeral if a nobleman was killed
in the napoleonic wars and onwards, tactics changed as well as weapons. No longer were soldiers fighting man-to-man in a test of skill, it became a roulette wheel of instant death where even poking your head out of the trench would get it blown to pieces in an instant
the industrialization of warfare brought a new era of terrifying and brutal battles that humanity had not seen
>>70270259
Majority of soldiers of in most of these were not primarily warriors kek. With the possible exception of spartans, they were soldiers only when it was necessary, that is at the time of a campaign. Not during a peacetime.
>>70261569
>Lol PTSD don't real ur just a pussy
Said like a true CoD addicted faggot.
"Must you carry the bloody horror of combat in your heart forever?"
- Homer, The Odyssey
>>70269635
It's not that simple. A lot of people volunteered knowing they were going to be drafted soon, so that they could try to get the job they wanted.
My uncle drew a shit number, so he volunteered to join the Army. I doubt he would have done that without the draft.
>>70261569
>Conquering and the thrill of risking your life and killing your enemy was something that soldiers enjoyed
You've watched too much television, played too much vidya, and haven't read enough serious history. PTSD is the modern name given to something that's always afflicted veterans. It's the curse of war, every warrior accepts it and lives with it. And some of us it kills. It's always been a fact of life on this planet.
>>70269316
Ancient warfare was far more brutal in the sense that your fighting very up close and personal with edged weapons...but like you said, there is a sense that you have some control over the situation. It's the idea that in WW1 you can simply hop out of your trench ready for a fight and then suddenly explode that sends you nuts. Or even worse, you could be sitting in your trench waiting when the air starts to smell funny and the next thing you know your eyes are melting and your vomiting blood.
>>70270180
Professional armies were barely non-existing in medieval Europe (Except Byzantine empire).
>>70270259
>spartans
>I believe 300 is historical
>vikings
>more then farmers and traders that went on a ship to steal monasteries and defenceless people
>European knights
>Anymore then silver spon faggets that played war with other fagget knights
>>70269768
Even the Illiad described a soldier with PTSD. Ajax.
>>70261569
Actually, some of the war memoirs of soldiers prior to WWI show signs of CSR/PTSD. It didn't just show up out of nowhere. The huge difference when it came to WWI and afterward is that the majority of soldiers, at least on the Western Front, were literate and articulated their thoughts and feelings onto paper. Warfare also changed, deaths were faster and more random, battles could last anywhere from seconds to non-stop for days. Clashes prior this period lasted for a few hours at most, sieges being the exception. Soldiers also came home sooner after wars compared to wars prior to WWI so people at home noticed it quickly since soldiers didn't have time to decompress.
tl;dr
Always existed, changed more recently and also became more noticeable due to a variety of factors.
>>70261830
It also has to do with being on edge all the time. The ancients fought their battle and went home. The modern soldier fights for longer.
I think it also has to do with society itself and its view on war and those who fight it.
The way others see you and what you have been thought about right and wrong has an influence on your mental condition and reaction to events.
I would say that we act more severely to the act of killing now than we did in the past and hence the effects of killing someone are also more severe on the one doing the killing.
This of course would be among the other things already mentioned here, mechanized warfare, artillery and etc.
>>70268031
>with less range than modern small arms
Most modern engagements are still at 100-300 meters range
>>70269078
I don't get how I'm not getting my point across here.
I'm not saying phalanx > quincunx (the actual system name for 3 lines with rotation)
I'm saying that in history nothing was more gruesome than phalanx warfare.
You literally CANNOT retreat at the front line. You likely WILL die if you replace the front man because the man in the back is pushing forward
>>70270630
I guess the Marian reforms never happened then
>>70270391
being english i'd assume you heard about battle of crécy
>>70261569
As explained to me.
Once upon a time it was believed that a man's steel, or mettle could bring him back home. Valor, etc was important.
Ww2 brought machine guns gas and mortar shells that would kill you by seemingly pure chance, where it was pure happenstance if you died or not.
And thus, the age of romance died as far as it was explained to me.
>>70270931
how the actual fucking fuck is reform of roman army in any way related to hunnic or viking military structure
>>70270339
>Reading about the Pacific theater in WW2
>Guys pumped up to fucking destroy japs
>End up dying of malnutrition, disease or suicide after spending months shitting and pissing yourself in a tropical jungle where it's raining all day but sweltering hot and you never ever see a Jap, but still constantly lose guys to mines, sniper fire or they simply go missing and you find them later strung up with their testicles in their mouth and their teeth pulled out
>>70268873
>beheadings
My father fought the roaches in the Lebanese civil war, he told me about growing up fighting kebab.
The muslims would rape boys and girls randomly if they didn't know the families of those children. If you were white, the arabs would shoot you on the spot, or check your ID before shooting you. He said that he knew of a family which was delivered at their door their dead son who had his eyes sewn shut, his balls and penis flayed and put in his mouth, and then lips sewn together. Going house to house, floor to floor, killing christians and white Armenians/Jews/Syrians because they wanted to.
Muslims dont just kill you, they burn you alive, they rape you, they cut you piece by piece for information if they want to know something. Thank god for Israel or Lebanon would be all Muslims for the same reason the middle east is all muslims. They kill everyone and everything that isn't Muslim or arab.
>>70261569
PTSD has been around since war.
http://militaryhistorynow.com/2012/09/17/walking-wounded-ptsd-from-ancient-greece-to-afghanistan/
>>70270503
knights were not primarily warriors? kek. spartans clearly were. Assyrians were. Mongols were. Huns were. Obviously some listed have balanced lives, but that isn't to say that combat and conquest are not a major part of their lives.
>>70270259
Sparta was not a warrior society?
Vikings didn't have consistent raiding seasons, requiring them to be well versed in combat? sure they may have been farmers or traders also, but they probably considered themselves warriors lol. And European knighthood saved the continent from moorish and other Islamic savages, wouldn't you know bout that ?
>>70271027
In many ways, fighting in the PTO was just as brutal as serving on the Eastern Front in the ETO. It's pretty sad that outside of The Pacific and Flags of our Fathers (which neither were very good), it doesn't receive the same attention.
>>70270931
>medieval europe
I know perfectly Rome employed a professional standing army
heres how to put it as simply as possible
as time goes on civilian life gets less lethal
as time goes on war gets more lethal
the gap between average quality of life, and the horrors of war gets wider every decade
>>70269746
No one does that after 19th century. We have camouflage, covers and crawling now
>>70270614
There are people who WEREN'T affected by it in ancient times.
You know, like the Mongols.
Which is why they were absolutely loathed and feared barbarians that disgusted and angered the entire planet.
Same with the Japanese.
OP seems to be pining for a people who were basically psychopathic barbarians.
>>70271022
Because it revolutionised the way Militaries operate and is the basis of modern professional Armies. It's model has been around since ~100bc
>>70266151
I've seen 3 strangers die infront of me and i live a regular life. I wasn't really sure what to think of it, i was more surprised by the odds of it than anything.
>>70262432
fuck off faggot cuck
>>70261569
What are you 15? PTSD has always been around
>>70271147
No, they were not. If you check out the knight's code of chivalry from song of roland you'll not ice that while some are related to concepts such as chivalry or glory, none mention warfare or combat directly.
>>70265197
You alright, bud?
>all those faggots in this thread who romanticise war when they've never experienced it
>those fags who think they'd be soooo good at horseback combat
>They're implying they wouldn't get speared by some random fucker from out of the corner of their eye
>>70271175
>fighting in the PTO was just as brutal as serving on the Eastern Front in the ETO
wat nigga?
>>70271327
How? Family in a hospital bed doesn't count.
>>70271316
You cant be serious can you.
Are you seriously going to claim that medieval european militaries were full of professional soldiers and that on top of that they were modeled on roman army?
