Would Communism work if it wasn't enforced under totalitarian policies?
By that I mean people not getting killed for free speech ect.
>>70161830
No.
>>70161830
No, look up the economic calculation problem and the incentive problem
You literally need to be retarded to believe communism could work
Long answer: Venezuela.
Short answer: No.
>>70161830
Not really, at least not under human agencies
>>70161830
No, your special brand of Communism wouldn't work.
>>70161830
>Would government managing all aspects of the economy and peoples lives work if we let people criticize it?
you answered your own question. This is why there is so much work put into creating communist man or soviet man, because soviet man can keep working and won't ask questions
Mao is the perfect example of how not to run a country, fucking idiot chink
>Would Communism work if it wasn't enforced under totalitarian policies?
Well, from what I've read it seems to me that socialism runs against human nature/evolutionary psychology, so communism on any large scale (greater than a hippie commune, for example) needs to be enforced through violence.
So no. It's horrifically Jewish too.
>>70161830
No, very few people would renounce their property willingly. Not even the supposed Spanish "anarchists" renounced coercion. Their councils and militias constituted a state and its force.
>>70161830
>URSS
>Cuba
>Venezuela
>Argentina
>China pre 1979
>Chile (where socialism was elected)
>ETC
A long list of countrys who had adopted comunism in the past, all F A I L E D countrys
>>70162774
There wasn't communism in Argentina.
>>70161830
No, it wouldn't work.
In fact... Communism can ONLY be implemented under totalitarian policies. You can only roll out a program which requires humans to stop being humans by force. Communism has violence and horror built into its DNA.
>>70162774
but fellow texan i thought you guys were doing great
>>70162774
Maybe your parents didn't have enough for a tip
>>70161830
No. How the hell would you take 100% of people's earning and properties wihout using force and limiting people's freedom.
The only thing that makes Communism not functional is the human condition.
If you remove humanity from humans altogether maybe Communism can start working. That's what the marxists have been trying to do ever since.
>>70163480
>not giving up everything you own to hand out to others
Stop being intolerant :^)
>>70163046
you need to explain the mechanism though
all property must have an owner and manager. look how common property under capitalist governments are managed. bureaucracy cannot create good common goods because THEY make the rules and determine their own promotions. bad performance cannot be punished, and good performance isn't the mechanism for promotion. capitalists PRODUCE. whoever produces MORE gets more money. but government has static ownership of goods. it DOESNT WANT to produce, just to tax. so promotion isn't determined by skill of production, but by insider networks ruled by violence.
compare your community park to a privately run one. the private parks are ALWAYS nicer because if they weren't they'd disappear. community property doesn't disappear or change hands, though, so there's no incentive to make it good.
communism reduces ALL private property to community property, thereby OUTLAWING individual iprovements to property, and reducing it to the lowest standards possible.
gommunism will never work because it contradicts one of the fundamental truths about human nature: that we're all selfish and will prioritize personal gain over helping others.
Those who think humans are fundamentally good are the most delusional retards on the planet.
>>70163658
This fucking meme about "communism doesn't work because of muh human condition " is true but it's a lot more than some people are greedy lmao : ^ ) .
Search up the economic calculation problem , that's the real reason why communism doesn't work and why the private sector is always more efficient than the public sector .
>>70161963
The economic calculation "problem" was refuted 90 years ago I won't go into it.
The incentive problem has never been an issue. Production never ceased in Catalonia during the revolution, people enjoy work that is freely undertaken. Most people find fulfillment in the work they undertake. Work only gets a bad connotation in a society where it's not freely undertaken and where they're under someone's thumb the entire time.
>>70164352
>I sware it was refuted I promise
>inb4 just have the people pretend to be businessmen lol and it'll work
>it had nothing to do with incentive structure
>Catalonia
>produces fucking nothing
>yet is larger than Hong Kong
>which has higher GDP / capita than Spain
Truly communists are delusional .
>>70164352
>Catalonia
>Anarchists
Pick one.
>Guise, we're democratic, unless you want to have private property, be a perceived rightist or be a Catholic, in that case, we'll shoot you.
>Councils are an institution that decides things b-but it's not a state. Our militias are not a coercion instrument, they just happen to ve very convincing and make your free will decide to be okay with our revolution!!!
>>70164130
The private sector creates all sorts of externalities which aren't efficient, which isn't even calculated, that's someone else's problem, usually the tax payer.
>>70164130
this
capitalism sets appropriate prices by aggregating market knowledge that bureaucrats can NEVER know. not, if they're stupid they won't know. they CANNOT provide an alternative to market prices because they are distributed information systems
>>70163921
don't say this. people will just say "we can make humanity better :^)
capitalism funnels violent energies into production. psychopaths with enter the workforce and obsessively try to produce more cars. if the locus of power is in government, the psychopaths will join government, and end up killing people.
say that instead.
>>70164910
those externalities, such as border security, racial purity, etc. are delegated to a sovereign, and are non negotiable on penalty of death.
the problem with democracy is that capitalists can buy votes. a dictatorship of racial interests cannot be bought.
>>70164655
It continued to produce the necessary things for the population during a time where it was under a massive military attack.
>>70164735
Not to say there weren't excesses, but in any real revolution there are people who don't like the situation and are forced to except the new foundations of the society or leave. Most employers were given the choice of joining their workers or leaving. Fascist sympathizers who were actively campaigning against the revolution were usually the ones who were deprived of life, liberty, and property, most people who weren't campaigning against the revolution were left alone.
Just look up what is meant as a state. No state =\= no government.
>communism
>not inevitably leading to totalitarianism
Commooonnnnisssmmmm
how could you ever take all of a person's wealth without force?
communism requires totalitarianism
No, I studied a commie microcosm: a co-op apartment block in Québec.
Rent is what you can pay, each according to their abilities
All the money is pooled into a public pot;
all renovations are done with money from the pot and all apartments get the same renovations
Building maintenance is provided by tenants, pitching in for equal work
and so on
It worked about as well as you`d expect: The landlords daughter was incredibly noisy, trashed her apartment, left dirty needles in the yard and could't be evicted because muh daughter
One guy took all the money in the pot to get marble countertops, told no one, never payed the money back
A small minority of tenants di the upkeep, for no benefit. Everyone else was always "busy"
There was no coercive force and even in a tiny group where everyone had a vested interest in the projects success, every crack in the system was exploited to the detriment of the tenants
Gulags are the only answer
>>70166198
One of the definitions of state is government, how were the councils and militias not a state and their force of coercion?
If Fascist sympathizers were shot and/or their property taken away, then there's not much voluntaryism. If people weren't allowed private initiative, then there's not much voluntaryism. People were killed because of their stance on religion. There was Red Terror, innocent people who didn't approve of communist dogma were killed. Not to mention, people who would logically be intimidated by such terror into accepting the communists' will.
>>70164926
Technology we had a long time ago would aid workers allocate resources according to their needs in other areas. It never has been a problem. Also having bureaucrats would negate a communist society.
>>70167224
so you're arguing for something that doesn't exist, and has never been made to exist, and which you cannot define the structure of its existence, except in incredibly vague terms?
congrats, I want to cave your head in with a rock
>>70166833
In that one example it didn't work, but that's literally one example out of thousands existing right now at this minute which are working.
Maybe rules weren't clearly formulated, maybe meetings weren't effective, maybe it was just the wrong people put together. In any co-op members should collectively have the right to say to a destructive person (I.e. That dumb bitch) "pls go"
>>70167159
A person was not persecuted based solely off their beliefs, rather their support of groups calling for the societies annihilation and violent overthrow. They shouldn't have been shot obviously, but it's hard to blame a society defending it's very existence to resort to extreme measures. A perfect example would be people calling for Islamic Jihad and violent overthrow and murder of kafirs in your society in a situation where the Armies of Allah are at your doorstep. Would you tolerate these people, or would you lock them up?
I never get the difference between Socialism and Communism.
Is it just that Socialism is like the transition towards Communism?
So several industries or needs are regulated by the state? In a way, a more realistic implementation of communis,?
>>70168020
Depends on the place.
In Quebec we do Democratic Socialism (more or less) which is capitalism with government intervention+ (which I think is a good thing)
The Public Good (hospitals, schools, public roads, etc.) is state funded, to try to eliminate the Profit Motive for setting prices, budgets, etc.
The problem here is that our government is such a corrupt shitshow that policy is wildly incoherent with societal goals or even basic common sense i.e:
Invest 1.3B$ to an aeronautics company to keep jobs here, 1.3B$ that was used to open a new factory in China
Paying for infrastructure for foreign companies to exploit our natural ressources (mining especially) while asking for nothing in return and insuring that when these minds run dry and collapse, public money will have to be used to clean up this mess.
The list goes on, the problem is that our government is so corrupt you'd have to arrest anybody that's ever held office, all their friends, and most construction companies
>>70167511
You mean something that has existed, does exist at mostly a smaller scale presently and has been formulated in extremely minute detail in a thousand different books.
>>70161830
Communism means literally tricking people into being willing slaves. Without government coercion, it couldn't happen.
>>70168006
>A person was not persecuted based solely off their beliefs, rather their support of groups calling for the societies annihilation and violent overthrow.
Sounds like a euphemism for "they don't want communism, therefore they annihilate our freedom and democratic revolution, they must be evil reactionaries!!!".
They enforced communism on the territories they held, it wasn't people voluntarily forming a cooperative. They made a violent overthrow themselves. To compare them with jihadists is such an absurd fallacy, how can you compare religious extremists to people who didn't approve of the communist dogma?
>>70168724
I don't think what you're describing is socialism. It has socialist aspects, but it doesn't comes close to the definition of full blown socialism.
Pretty shitty about that 1.3B, that's just corruption. Didn't you protest or demanded answers?
>>70168006
>In that one example it didn't work, but that's literally one example out of thousands existing right now at this minute which are working.
You forgot to give examples.
Nothing works if it's not enforced in totalitarian manner. European self destruction is working because we are increasingly totalitarian. China works better than India because it's way more totalitarian.
>>70163076
Yeah, after based Friedman and the Chicago Boys came in
>>70169067
We go out in the streets every few months/year, rattle our sabers, then go home.
Sometimes someone gets fired, usually not.
We spent 150M$ dollars on investigating corruption, the report came out and was promptly but into a garbage bin; no arrests, no accusations.
Someday it's going to explode and I'm going to be right out in the streets with whatever proud nationalists are left
>>70168724
>The Public Good (hospitals, schools, public roads, etc.) is state funded
Yeah, by Alberta.
>>70161994
>a world without toilet paper
>>70161830
Why don't people just let it go already. Get a damn job and vote libratarian.
>>70161830
I have this t shirt somewhere
>>70169213
Google co-ops. Literally thousands of examples existing. Mondragon is the biggest.
>>70169044
There were actually examples of excesses, people executed for their beliefs, which were by and large condemned by anarchist spokespeople.
>>70169343
Yep. Hong Kong and Singapore are probably the best examples.
>>70161830
People cannot live equally in large groups because human nature leads to selfishness and hierarchies where the naturally weak fall to the bottom whilst the naturally powerful rise to the top. If it wasn't enforced then it would essentially be anarcho-communism, which wouldn't work because some group somehow will always vie for power. Without a totalitarian state, a large scale communal society would fall apart. This is why capitalist and (generally) democratic societies won out in the cold war.
So no, it can't.
>>70169550
I'm a sovereignist, I don't want your shitty transfer payments. We get 20B$ in transfers, we pay 50B$ in Fed. taxes, for what?
Harper's investments in oilsands? That sweet 27$ a barrel moneypot
Trudeau's minority funtime photo-ops? I'd kick his ass "but the UN won't let me"
No thanks, keep your money
>>70169779
>Gives a business as an example to communism working in a society.
I'd like to say it's like comparing apples and oranges, but it's more like comparing apples and cars.
>Utilizes non-member workforce in good times
>Cuts hours completely in bad times so they can get another job
Totally like communism, because in a society when they need people they just get people from another country, and when there's too many people and not enough work they cut you off.
>>70161830
/r/ing a version of these faggoty commieboo meme where everyone but Marx is brutally murdered in the background, a faceless figure standing over a pleading battered Karl brandishing a hammer, bat, or whatever relishing the moment before delivering the killing blow, and the caption being "Communism: Party's Over"
>>70169830
I get your sarcasm but check their fertility rates. And Taiwan's. And while at it compare best and worst corea too.
There is more to herding a nation than short term profit.
>>70168006
>Maybe rules weren't clearly formulated
How are the rules to be enforced without a state/threat of violence?
>>70172408
Well I wasn't being sarcastic. If you're looking at pure economic output, then Hong Kong + Singapore are excellent examples of authoritarian govts but great economies.
Yes their fertility rates are low but so is the rest of the industrialized world. It costs too much to raise a kid.
>>70162468
He actually caused baby boom which laid the groundwork for its power, and educated the country side. Yeah some people died but net positive. Same with Stalin. It's the weak leaders who give a fuck about single persons fee fees that suck ass. Like Zemin and Gorbachev.
How do you have a centralized authority in control of a planned economy without opening it up to abuses by totalitarian positions?
>>70161830
Communism can't work by Marxian standards because the material conditions don't facilitate it
The Material conditions can't be created because all forms of Marxian government from reformism to vanguardism fails to abolish the socio-economic conditions that prevent communism.
The reason they fail to do so is that a centrally planned economy can't compete with a Market economy and inherently leads to stagnation as the economy reaches saturation point to manage.
Even Lenin didn't intend permentant authroitarianism, it's just the conditions the Russians were used to , the man, like most Marxists was making it up as he went along.
>>70173100
Because dude we SWEAR they aren't evil this time.
>>70168724
>In Quebec we do Democratic Socialism (more or less) which is capitalism with government intervention+ (which I think is a good thing)
>The Public Good (hospitals, schools, public roads, etc.) is state funded,
Democratic Socialism isn't "muh roads" is the establishment of the social ownership of the means of production through a Parliamentary democracy.
What you're describing is Social democracy (easy to mix up I know) a market economy with partial interventionism and public services provided by the state.
>>70173100
guillotines placed on every street corner
>>70161830
The reason European socialism works is because others are doing the slave labour for us.
>>70161830
Of course not. It defies the laws of nature in every way. It has to be forced it people revert their natural state, which is to look out for themselves and their own.
>>70162240
epic meme
>Argentina
>ever socialist
>Venezuela
>not state capitalist
>Chile
>failed state
>>70163046
>humans to stop being humans
People have lived outside of the modern capitalistic system before. They've left it voluntarily and enjoyed it.
>>70163921
Are you blind? Humans are definitely not selfish creatures. We rely completely on each other and often socialize and cooperate.
>>70164655
Revolutionary Catalonia was under attack from all sides. Would you expect them to do completely fine?
>>70166307
Ebin slippery slope
>>70168955
Communism is the workers (enslaved class) taking control over government and large productive assets like factories and resources.
>>70169044
Are you implying that they were any worse than their neighbors?
Franco set up an ACTUAL dictatorship and killed hundreds of thousands.
>>70173393
epic meme
>>70173100
By keeping democracy and a constitution and keeping social control away from the government.
>>70174066
Thanks for that, words tend to get switched around in the french-english translation, higher concepts are especially tough to keep apart
>>70177252
>>70177129
>>70177003
>>70176877
>>70176734
>>70176709
>>70176431
>>70176217
>>70176124
>>70176032
Oh shit nigger what are you doing?
>>70167159
Not being a dick, but it's volunteerism not volutaryism
>>70177748
>>70177003
It was a dictatorship too, I don't deny that. I just don't buy the "it was all democratic" bullshit.
>>70178415
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntaryism
>Dat gif tho
What is the meaning behind that?
