How do we steer the muslims from barbaric sects like salafism and sufism back to better sects like bektashism and sufism?
>How do we steer sufism from sufism
??????????
>>70093192
I'm a muslim and i have no idea what you're talking about
> How do we steer the muslims from salafism and sufism back to bektashism and sufism?
You meant: How do we steer the muslims from barbaric sects like salafism and wahhabism back to better sects like bektashism and ahmadism?
(bektashism is part of sufism)
>>70093990
>how do we get rid of Wahhabism
Nuke Saudi Arabia
>>70093192
Salafism is the religion that Muhammed and his friends practiced. And there are many hadiths that there will be a group which will continue practicing like Muhammed until judgement day.
Mu‘aawiyah and ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with them) reported that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ‘A group of my ummah will continue victoriously adhering to the truth until the Last Hour begins.’”
Al-Mugheerah ibn Shu‘bah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) say: “Some people of my ummah will remain victorious over the people until the decree of Allaah reaches them.”
‘Imraan ibn Husayn (may Allaah be pleased with him) said that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “A group of my ummah will continue fighting for the truth, and will prevail over those who oppose them, until the last of them will kill al-Maseekh al-Dajjaal (the Liar or Anti-Christ).”
>>70093192
I have no idea. Maybe i'm not a REAL muslim. But who cares.
>>70093192
I don't think you can anymore.
All of the people with power and influence in Islam support wahhabism, you need a new enlightenment to take root, and the wahhabis need to die en masse and demoralized.
>>70094085
Implying israel and the usa will let anyone to harm Saudi arabia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman%E2%80%93Wahhabi_War
We and turkey killed a lot of them
Feels good man.
>>70094085
you are the one backing them with nukes and sucking their oily cock
>>70094125
Wow. Norway did a really good job by letting you in.
>>70094316
>you
I should change my foreign policy decisions, you're right. Let me get the State Department on the phone.
>>70093192
Teach them capitalism.
>>70093192
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=107a67cb0e09" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
>>70094341
I have been here all the time, my family is from the coasts in the middle of Norway.
>>70093192
With nuclear weapons. All muslims are evil and should be slaughtered.
>>70094125
gas the mudslimes
>>70094270
I heard of salafi political parties in Egypt. Is salafism strong?
What is General Sisi and Muslim Brotherhood doing?
>>70094125
You will never be one of us.
soon.
>>70093990
What's the differance between those sects? Over here I only hear bad things about Wahhabism.
>>70093192
>implying bektashis are muslim
>>70094341
hes a white convert
norway is more cucked than sweden
>>70094685
fåkk åff, din nazi. Du kan aldri finne meg. Jeg har blondt hår, gronne oyne og norskt navn. Skal du drepe alle blonde med gronne oyne? Da får jeg fler folk på min side, naziper.
We make muslims Christians.
>>70094662
Salfists used to be somewhat strong before the egyptian crisis arab winter etc
Now they got no influences and mostly hiding and wont tell anyone that they are salafists their numbers is dropping to the ground too
Muslim brotherhood is rotting in jail as usual
And sufi orders and al azhar are controlling everything as usual
>>70094855
NOT THAT FUCKING MUCH SVEN
SHOO SHOO BACK TO YOUR KEKSHED
>>70095099
who would do that? The christians? Here in Norway there are maybe 300 people who take christianity seriously and go to church every week and the average age is 70 years. There are 100 000+ muslims who take it seriously on the other handand go to the mosque several times per week.
Or do you expect the atheists to do the job?
i have seen and talked to people that follow mevlevi order and bektashis before. i am not a muslim myself but they seemed pretty alright, mevlevis were very anti-materialist and bektashis were kinda like muslim-lite, following it as a culture more than religion
wahhabism is literal cancer, it hasn't fully spread to turkey yet but it is increasing in popularity among the islamic circles
picture related, a bektashi leader that supports re-opening bektashi centers in turkey
it seems that the balkanites are still following these sects, i don't know what they are like though
>>70094398
well the saudis are capitalists, doesn't help with the head chopping
>>70093657
shit it was meant to be salafism and wahhabism
>>70094983
>fåkk åff
norge ja
>>70095146
The egyptian salafists shot themselves in the foot when they backstabbed their fellow muslims and legitimized sisi and the other atheists
>>70095263
i agree wahhabism is a cancer that need to be purged. sadly they are spreading like a virus inside "normal" muslim communities
>>70093192
Gunshot wounds.
fuck that just make them christians
TURKEY HARAM
ÖZIL HARAM
TATTOO HARAM
MANLET HARAM
>>70093192
or even better sects like the adnan hoca pussy club
>>70095331
Sisi is atheist?! I thought that is a big no-no in the Islamic world
>>70093192
Civilized countries must ban Saudi money coming in, cuz Saudis finance the radicals
>>70093192
US government invests in alternative energy and domestic oil production. US becomes energy independent and can afford to leave the Gulf States out to dry
>>70095365
it IS normal islam, all other sects have a lot of stuff added to it, lots of extra practices not mentioned in the Quran or hadith and lots of extra beliefs. Salafism only has the practices and beliefs mentioned in the Quran and hadith. So of course people who take the religion seriously is going to do that.
As said before "bektashis were kinda like muslim-lite, following it as a culture more than religion" it's only for atheists or deists who wants to have a quasi-islamic flavour to what they are doing. At least in Britain that makes no sense, they just live like normal atheists
>>70095608
>I thought that is a big no-no in the Islamic world
Anyone who complains get shot in the street. Lots of muslim countries are governed by atheists, look at Algeria for example. The Algerian government would even like to ban islam, just like Mustafa Kemal (the first atheist ruler of a muslim majority country) tried.
But it is also the reason why the middle east has lots of conflicts, after Europeans made anti-islamic people into the leaders of those countries. Sometimes it backfired like in Iran, and sometimes it somehow worked like in Turkey, but none of them have managed to get rid of islam even if many have said that they want to. And they are atheists so they have no morality stopping them, it's just not technically possible. And now due to the European meddling in the affairs of muslims people had to flee and they fled here to Europe and spread islam with it.
>>70095608
Lol no sisi isn't an atheist and nothing indicates he is anything but a sunni muslim.
He's a relatively secular military loyalist who still makes sure blasemphy laws and discrinination of copts are ongoing to keep the average sunni citizen (apart from liberals) away from sympathizing with islamists
>>70095556
>adnan oktar
that nigga needs jesus
>>70096078
>and nothing indicates he is anything but a sunni muslim.
Except that he has several times said that islam is shit and needs a new Quran.
>who still makes sure blasemphy laws and discrinination of copts are ongoing to keep the average sunni citizen (apart from liberals) away from sympathizing with islamists
Yeah, he oppresses the coptic christians of course, but that was always something secular muslims did. The religious muslims tried to stop it, morsi tried to crack down on it, but the secular police did not want to. It is not something that appeals to the religious egyptians.
>>70095796
what kind of islam Daeshbag practices then? i think this is the core problem with islam, there is no central leader figure to standardize the correct version of islam and so we got pure chaos where uneducated and illiterate muslim immigrant take their imam's word as a sort of divine law
>>70094487
Ka I helvete. Koffor e du musling?
>>70096517
>there is no central leader figure to standardize the correct version of islam
Well, after the fall of the Caliphate, no. But, we do have Caliph Ibrahim Abu Du'a now. And ha has a Phd in Islamic studies. Which is more than any other muslim leader.
>>70096591
Fordi det er sannheten, bare folger det som er sant og det som er fakta.
>>70093192
RELIGION OF PEACE
>>70096774
Faen kor lang tid tok det å bli hjernevaska? Gjor det for å vær toff?
>>70094729
>implying you aren't posting from Joe's Apartment.
>>70096056
>so much disinfo in one post
I'll try to keep it brief: (1) Admitting to being an atheist in a Muslim society is very taboo. Atheists face state-sanctioned discrimination, prejudice and many times human rights abuses.
(2) *Especially* in Egypt right now out of all places because as I said blasemphy is illegal and mostly affects the openly irreligous. This is a widely-known fact.
(3)Ataturk never "banned" Islam, (4)wanting to ban Islam in Algeria is just bullshit because that'd just increase Islamist insurgency and (5)Goddamn you really spread so many lies by trying to paint Egypt as some kind of atheist-ruled dictatorship (6)Egyptian Copts and secularists had it the roughest under Morsi, the Islamist fundamentalist.
I can just tell you're an Islamist sympathizer
>>70096716
D..Dude... seriously you.. that guy is fucking ISIS. a douchebag.. don't tell me you're his follower?
>>70093192
>better sects
>
>>70096922
Tok to år med lesing, jeg fikk mye servert gratis fordi de fleste vennene mine var imot islam så de postet vers fra Koranen også tenkte jeg "Hæ? står det virkelig det i Koranen?" også leste jeg, og det sto faktisk de tingene, men så leste jeg versene for og etter og det ga en helt annen mening. Så leste jeg mer og mer. Samtidig som jeg jobbet på 7-eleven og så hvordan fylla odela samfunnet, så jeg sluttet å drikke alkohol.
Og en dag leste jeg bibelen etter å ha vært klar i hodet og edru en god stund, verset var Matteus 26:39 hvor jesus faller ned på bakken som en muslim og sier til Gud noe slikt som "ikke gjor som jeg vil, men gjor som du vil" og da forsto jeg at kristendom var logn hele tiden, man vil ha folk til å akseptere selvmotsigelser selv om hele historien om jesus er uten selvmotsigelser hvis man leser det med muslimske oyne. Da fant jeg ut at jeg over tid hadde blitt muslim og bestemte meg for å formelt konvertere.
Alt i Koranen er sant og uten selvmotsigelser, så da sluttet jeg studere filosofi og startet å studere vitenskap. Holder på med mastergrad akkurat nå.
>>70097061
(1) Yes, but not those in power
(2) Nobody believes that Sisi is religious at all and he has said worse things about Islam than what Dawkins have said about Christianity.
(3) No, but he tried. He banned the Quran for a while from any media. Then he only allowed a special turkish translation of the Quran.
(4) That is why they are not able to do it, but they obviously want to. People are not allowed to be in the mosque too much, you can get arrested if you don't leave the mosque straight after prayer.
(5) It is a dictatorship ruled by atheists.
(6) They have it worse now, because now the oppression is supported by the state, while Morsi openly was against the violence against copts. It was the secular police under morsi that did not want to do anything, when copts called the police they were told that the police have taken a 4 year vacation (until next election). While under Sisi, the police is actively oppressing the copts because Sisi thinks it will appeal to the religious muslims, which it does not of course.
>>70095796
Assalamwalaikum.
I'm an 18 yo Indian Muslim girl pls marry me.
>>70097756
Wa alaykum asalam wa rahmetullahi wa barakatu.
Hehe, you women are always like that. I already have a wife and I probably need to get more money before I can afford getting a wife number two. So that each have a proper place to live and I am able to support my wives.
>>70097322
Herregud. Og nå sprer du antiintellektuelt soppel og lover fra jernalderen på nettforum. Stotter du å sprenge i filler oss vantro nordmenn og, da, eller?
Du har jo sett hvor mye svineri den nye klubben din forårsaker verden over. Jeg skjonner ikke hvordan du kan se for deg noen god fremtid hvis det tar over.
>>70096716
AFAIK i think there will be no more legitimate caliph after the four rightly guided caliph and afterward there will only be something like the age of warlord and king or age of fitna? so that bagdadi guy/isis is illegitimate. well atleast that was what my muslim fiend told me
>>70097965
That's fucking illegal.
>>70093192
killing
>>70098219
No it is not. If I import some girl then I need to register the marriage, but otherwise I don't need to register it. All I need is two witnesses, a woman and her mahram (father or brother or something) then it's a marriage. Don't need to register it, it's legally the same as a girlfriend and there is no laws against multiple girlfriends.
>>70098031
Det blir fred og mindre vold. Eneste grunnen til at muslimer er involvert i vold er fordi ikke-muslimer starter kriger og konflikter. Ateisme er steinaldersk fra for man hadde moral og sivilisasjon
>>70093192
Ok let's start.
Sufism is not a sect and especially not islamic. As a teaching it pre dates Islam.
>>70094695
Wahhabism is absolute cancer, i don't support violence but it needs to be removed one way or another.
>>70095263
Here there are some secluded Sufi orders. I am part of one. We have been perceived as sect due to the fact that few hundred years ago these orders lived in secluded colonies, towns with dressing code that usually consisted of wearing wool vest or sweater. Sometimes kind of orthodox monk type of uniform. Always were integral part of community that contributed in various arts and crafts.
Sufi orders or what OP's pic suggest and what we call here dervish are pantheists. Believing that everything is god and that god is in everything. Sounds familiar?
Some sufi orders adopted islam as part of their teaching but they practice it to a different degree.
>>70096056
mustafa kemal was probably a deist or some lite-muslim
and he didn't ban islam, he actually opened a ministry of religion with the basic objective to manage the mosques and steer turkish islam in the right direction
it worked in turkey because ottoman empire was in a somewhat similar state except for the added power of the caliph, ataturks reforms were a continuation of tanzimat reforms of the ottoman sultan
>>70098780
Sufis practice like the sadhu of Hinduism and is the same thing. They have similar practices and similar stories. For example the story of a person who put his feet towards the kaaba and when told off (because it is disrespectful) he says 'put my feet where God is not'. The Hindu sadhu has the same story, but with a statue instead of the kaaba. You always find a Hindu version of the sufi stories so it is obviously pre-islamic
>>70098219
I begin to think he's trolling.
No one can be this stupid.
>>70098598
Den Muhammadklubben din skaper bare dod og fordervelse. Blir ikke noe bruk for den mastern i Isis-land.
Norge husker også sine landsforrædere.
Perhaps convert all of them to Atheism/Agnosticism so they can be civilized humans.
>>70099168
Exactly, besides Hinduism it is connected to oriental orthodox Christianity as well with Islam. Also big part of rationalistic part of teaching also lies with Greek philosophy.
Sufi as a name came from Greek word Sophia meaning of course wisdom.
>>70099248
Jo, det er en vitenskapelig mastergrad, ikke en mastergrad i kjonnsstudier eller slike ting.
>>70097683
>morsi
>loves cops
Ok you are bullshitting
I am a copt
And morsi and the muslim brotherhood hated us and wanted to kick us from our rightful land
While Sisi protected us from them and the other islamists And btfoed them later
>>70099294
>implying there are civilized atheists
Who do you mean? The women who dress and act like wild animals fucking everyone without thinking about the consequences?
Or the neet fedora tippers jerking off to Japanese cartoons without any morality? There would be no civilization without morality, the best they have is norms they have adopted from the local religion, but they have no rational reason to follow those moral norms if they suddenly don't want to or if they benefit from not following it.
>>70099716
Well facts speak differently. There have been way more attacks after morsi, just look at the facts.
>>70100025
Yes, attacks by the muslim brotherhood and then they blame the cops and the milirtary, and sure your jewish media shows the muslim brotherhood as innocent and that el sisi killed 9939488381177483 gorlliom muslim brotherhood member.
>>70098780
>>70099488
This man is a "real nigga", listen to him.
>>70100153
Jewish media? Who supports Israel the most? Sisi does, he is more anti Palestinian than most Israeli politicians. And Sisi support Israel way more than USA. Egyptian media is directly controlled by Jews more than American media, at least America has fox which is controlled by a non-jew.
>>70094125
Spotted the Wahabi. Those hadiths can be and are applied by every sect. We shia say the same. But look at you praising muawiya the same guy who killed the prophets grandson and created a civil war because he rejected Imam Ali as the khalaifa. The Prophet sawas said to Ammar ibn Yassir"An evil rebellious party shall kill you" research the death of Ammar ibn Yassir and if you are truthful then you will stop loving him.
>>70100559
>hating hamas makes you pro israel
T. Morsi eisa al aiat
Probs you are islamist
Hamas and 50% of the Palestinians are terrorists nowdays
And must be dealt with
Every time we let Palestinian refugees in a terrorist attack happens
>>70094695
Wahabisim is from Mohammad ibn Abdul Wahab and essentially came out around 200 years ago with these simple rules:
1. Anyone who disagrees with us, is a kafir, especially the based shia
2. Anyone who is a kafir should be killed without question.
So england with all of their wisdom said "hey lets support these guys as it will destroy the muslim empire (which it did)" too bad they didnt see far enough ahead to realize it will bite them in the ass. ISIS, al qeada, boko haram etc all follow wahabism and wahabis from saudi sponsor massive mosque projects in the west further spreading their degenerate idology. So now you cant trust any sunni as any of them can fall prey to the wahabi teaching
Embrace the fedora and become enlightened with the rest of us.
>>70100577
Muawiya is not praised by Sunni Muslims except rarely. But Sunni Islam is still the same religion that even Ali had. Shiism is polytheism, you pray to dead people and claim that it is better than praying to God.
>>70100839
>based shia
>did not even kill 1 wahabi in their life
Kek
>>70093990
>Ahmadism
>sect
Ayy lmao
>>70100839
Abdul wahab almost never wrote anything himself, he answered all questions with quoting the Quran and quoting hadith. The only thing he wrote himself was sentences like "and that verse is explained by the Hadith that says..." and similar. He never said anything new. Find one book he wrote anything new in.
>>70100428
I am not sure if this is sarcasm my brother but i don't think that anyone here needs to read/listen. Sometimes it is better to spend time just watching the sky and how weather changes.
>>70100931
Fedora is fine, but it will leave a void my brother. You may not notice at first but it will grow and drown you. We are sentient for a reason, to witness and awe this dynamic consequential system of existence that we can observe.
We truly know not what is it like to be dead but we sure do not understand what it means to be "alive".
>>70093192
You put a bullet in their head, and once you are done put a bullet in yours too.
>>70093192
By killing them.
They'll learn quickly after the first few thousand.
>>70099294
And that's why Germans are facing imminent extunction, godlessness, let me say that again, godlessness...
>>70098780
>They believe everything is God and God is everything
So they're like vedantic hindus?
>>70101883
>They'll learn quickly after the first few thousand.
Millions of muslims have been killed though, being killed is not something muslims are afraid of, not the religious kinds at least. It might strike fears in the sufis though.
>>70096517
Oh you listen to Dan Carlin podcasts too?
>>70101035
Norweign Salafi Sunni Muslim, you clearly don't know anything about Shia Islam.
>>70093192
redpill me on your culture. why are these men wearing skirts?
>>70094662
I read somewhere Egypt has 8-10 Million Salafists.
We shall gas them.
>>70102142
In a broad sense yes, but perceiving it as a complex and concious being that knows where it came from and knows where it wants to go.
God is not seen as omnipotent universal force but instead as source of endless knowledge and wisdom that is out there for anyone to use and utilize and that trough us, IT's manifestation in physical form shapes the world we live in.
>>70102142
Yes, kinda like Sankardev, Meiporul, Basava and Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.
Which is the reason why sihkism felt they could mix islam and hinduism. Because sufi practices, stories and beliefs was similar to traditional hinduism. (due to their pre-islamic origin)
>>70102481
due to modesty, men (according to sharia) must cover between the knees and navel, that ideally also includes the forms as well.
>>70101767
>but it will leave a void my brother
True, but that's no reason not to embrace it if it's the truth (or most likely to be). Filling the void comes after and yes, it's a serious undertaking.
>>70093192
What is your religion?
>>70103114
>True, but that's no reason not to embrace it if it's the truth (or most likely to be).
But it is not, and even if it was "most likely" it is much better to emrace something else, because atheism guarantees the worst possible outcome after death no matter how the world is put together. Anything else at least promises a better chance.
Also atheism lacks morality
>>70100839
So it's simple, we kill the Sunnis
>>70093192
someone pls shoop
>>70103114
Well, i can tell you that there is no such thing as truth, there is only perception and belief. Our species is like a child that plays with plastic tools in a sandbox, every time we discover something new we proclaim it to be truth and we realign our current knowledge to coincide with new one. Old one is discarded forgetting the fact that it used to be "the truth".
Science in other words can answer all questions that start with "How", this is the limit of our perception but nobody will ever be able to answer "Why" because it requires a belief.
>>70093192
I have no idea what any of that means.
But to cure Islam, we go on another Crusades and kill a bunch of them.
This time, we're taking back Constantinople.
>>70103252
>atheism guarantees the worst possible outcome after death no matter how the world is put together
My motivation for Atheism is not dependent upon the size of the carrot at the end of the stick.
Pascal's wager is not persuasive. To me, at least.
>atheism lacks morality
Obviously, because it's not a belief system as such. It's just not believing in gods. Believing in gods does not solve the problem of what's right and wrong.
>>70104075
It kind of does because atheists tend to be self-centered and only really care about what benefits them. Even when they perform charitable actions, it's only so they can post it on Facebook.
>>70103252
>>70104075
Morality was not derived from religion or because holy book or god says so.
Morals come from the world around us and our rational perception of it. Organized religions just reinforced morals by giving them weight, tremendous weight. Because punishment was never to be immediate but on the other side, where you get to live / suffer eternally.
This is why people of faith think that they are moral but it is misconception.
>>70104213
>It kind of does because atheists tend to be self-centered and only really care about what benefits them. Even when they perform charitable actions, it's only so they can post it on Facebook.
That's how I feel about religious people so I guess the feeling's mutual. Nothing more self-centered than thinking that the lord of the universe personally cares for you and listens to your prayers.
>>70093192
a student of history knows the obvious answer to this... a reformation but this can't be forced but must come from the ragheads themselves. their religeon is culturally regressive and the subserivent nature dulls free thought. as a consciquence i doubt this will come about any time soon. because of this uncomprimising idealogical stance the suvival of the free world demands a race war.
>>70104447
>Morality was not derived from religion or because holy book or god says so.
Yes it does
>Morals come from the world around us and our rational perception of it.
No it can't it is a logical fallacy. You can not derive 'ought' from 'is'.
Anyone who infers that X is good from any proposition about X's natural properties of having committed the naturalistic fallacy. Assuming that being pleasant is a natural property, for example, someone who infers that drinking beer is good from the premise that drinking beer is pleasant is supposed to have committed the naturalistic fallacy. The intuitive idea is that evaluative conclusions require at least one evaluative premise—purely factual premises about the naturalistic features of things do not entail or even support evaluative conclusions.
So you are factually wrong and it can be logically proven. Moral statements only makes logical sense with at least one evaluative premise, which is only seen as objective if you are religious. There are no such atheistic premises that is seen as objective by all or most atheists.
>This is why people of faith think that they are moral but it is misconception.
You lack logical sophistication.
>>70093192
how did they manage it in Chechnya?
kill the salafists?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqZClRbKNUM&nohtml5
>>70105550
Too tired to elaborate really.
>No it can't it is a logical fallacy. You can not derive 'ought' from 'is'.
Ok i give you this as win.
Moral statement - logical sense - logical analysis - logical sophistication.
You argue like a true mathematician and classic philosopher, if x than y, we are not made of circuit boards.
We sure got logical up in this.
2 questions then.
Why do different cultures have different social norms and moral values?
When exactly in our social and cultural development did we develop morals or what made prime moral premise?
Morality is older than religion. Religion coded morality in something comprehensive.
>So you are factually wrong and it can be logically proven. Moral statements only makes logical sense with at least one evaluative premise, which is only seen as objective if you are religious. There are no such atheistic premises that is seen as objective by all or most atheists
You spent a lot of time probably because you thought i am fedora which needs some enriching but i am not. I am interested in your opinion anyway.
muslim is good
>>70107379
>2 questions then.
>Why do different cultures have different social norms and moral values?
Different religions and histories.
>When exactly in our social and cultural development did we develop morals or what made prime moral premise?
The first buildings was religious structures. So religion happened before people settled and became civilized. Religion made it possible for people to live in communities and have social rules they could agree to.
>Morality is older than religion.
No evidence of this, but there is evidence that it is logically impossible to have any view of objective morality without religion.
Objective moral claims make no sense without religion and without having some religious indoctrination which gives moral norms (like in the west the moral norms are usually influenced by christianity. For example atheists usually dont give to charity but still view charity as a good thing while in pre-christian europe it was viewed as a bad thing [see "the geneology of morality" by friedrich nietzche for more on this])
1. Moral claims apply regardless of your desires
(when we condemn a criminal, do we change our minds if we learn it was in his self-interest to commit it?)
2. If we morally ought to do something, we have a reason to do it.
(If we ask "why am I morally required to vote?", we couldn't take seriously someone who had no other response than "well you simply *musn't*!)
3. So, if we morally ought to do something, we have to have a reason to do it that applies regardless of our desires.
4. Such reasons don't make sense.
Because there are no reasons to do anything at all that is not connected to desire. for example "run fastest to win the gold medal" is only valid if you want the gold medal.
5. Therefore, moral claims make no sense. At least without religion.
>>70110063
>Different religions and histories.
Ok, religions vary on surroundings and understanding on what supports life of individual or community in certain environment. Ancient religions praised gods of life sustaining, water, sun, air etc.
Still i think that primal societies revolved around idea of understanding that they have better success of surviving if they cooperate and only later they had a certain ideology/religion. If you want to cooperate as a group and to make progress you must have basic notion of equiality and distribution with added segments of emotional aspect that needs to be taken into account.
>The first buildings was religious structures.
Only as first sign of organized society/civilization with common idea and goal. Going back to previous point.
I think we argue on different points as you mentioned objective and subjective morals.
Points 1 - 5 of course describe morally motivated actions but
>Because there are no reasons to do anything at all that is not connected to desire. for example "run fastest to win the gold medal" is only valid if you want the gold medal.
values and accomplishments are conditioned with social moral norms, again we are arguing on subjective and objective viewpoint.
Medal can have value to individual and maybe not to have any value at all for society that is giving it away and vice versa.
>>70111814
>values and accomplishments are conditioned with social moral norms, again we are arguing on subjective and objective viewpoint.
Yes, but if someone claims something is objectively right, then they don't mean ONLY in the local culture. If some stranger comes in and does something that breaks the local norms it is not necessarily viewed like "it is alright because he don't share our norms"
At some point they claim the norms are universial and that only makes sense in a religious framework.
"Subjective morals" makes no sense. "It is wrong to rape children... If you think it's wrong of course" having "subjective moral rules" is meaningless because "you should not steal" only applies to people who do not want to steal anyway, and if they one day suddenly want to steal something then they have a different subjective viewpoint and that rule don't apply anymore.
But I am off to the mosque, need to head home early
>>70112559
ok thank you for clarifications, take care.
>>70093192
Fuck that, let's cuck them with atheism
