What the fuck. Who has actually read Marx here? I just read about half of Das Kapital and can't understand how the fuck Marxism still hasn't been thrown in the dumpster after two centuries. It should have been disected and trashed by the end of the 1800s. Its language is very heavy but the actual principles behind Marx's economic "theories" are just flat out retarded
>>70090162
It requires being ill informed on it's history of implementation and constant failure, otherwise no one would pay it any mind, it has been debunked, but they just keep calling it a different name such as socialism, Democratic Socialism, Social Democracy, hoping useful idiots won't pay enough attention. It is a doctrine of slavery and destroyers of nations and culture.
but dude surplus value extraction is literally the reason why I am not a winner, LET'S BURN THE PALACES DOWN FOR THE JEW!
>>70090162
Tell me more about these Marxist principles you disagree with.
>>70090162
Marx provided a different method to perceive and contemplate politics and economics. While his results are wrong his methodology is still relevant today.
>>70090162
Welp to be fair some Communist countries still exist, like China, so its not like it was a 100% failure.
>>70090162
It's a secular religion now. The same way you can't really dismantle religion for most people, it's fundamental tenets are faith based. What makes communism worse is that its adherents are indoctrinated to think they are "clear" of anything "irrational" like faith. They think their beliefs represent the cutting edge of science and logic, despite having a weak grasp of these things prior to indoctrination. They can't ever subject their beliefs to skepticism because they don't posess any fundamental skeptical faculties; they would suffer complete ego collapse if they truly faced their ideology with any intellectual honest or genuine doubt.
>>70090162
Most of it is outdated and the rest is pretty retarded. It amazes me that they still teach it as a base for sociology courses in college. It's been proven it doesn't work and many aspects of it are just plain false. Doesn't make much sense to me either OP
neoMarxist theory that states that racial divisions are whipped up by elites to distract lower classes from uniting against oppressive upper classes is correct.
As soon as the economy started tanking the media started feeding racial hatred stories.
Because as soon as people who are the 1% unite they know they are all fucked. They know this and fear it because they know the day will come.
>>70091159
Communism died with Mao in China
>>70090162
>>70090857
Anybody that has read Das Kapital has to admit he pinpoints various weak points of the capitalistic system. Also, anybody that has read Das Kapital and following Marx essays, statements, manifestos(especially his french "phase") also realise that he did not offer an effective system that would be implemented after the revolution and redistribution of wealth. The closest humanity got to implementing his ideas is the Nazi movement, which was infact marxism done right economically. Also, if you want to understand marxism you have to be familiar with hegelian dialectic and marxism as the ultimate materialistic philosophical theory. There is a big difference between marxism in the raw philosophical sense and marxism applied in the real world which, without exception, resulted in catastrophic failures and led to the suffering of millions. One thing Marx correctly anticipated is the crony capitalism that uses international banking effectively holds a grip on the modern man, we are slaves in the worst possible form, unable to recognize our slavery, living in a illusion. The best criticism of Marxistic theory and communism is given by Bakunin. I am not an anarchist ,but his treatise of communism is unparalleled.
>>70091249
>neoMarxist theory
Isnt that basically just this whole sjw mentality?
>straight white male privilege
>oppressing patriarchy
>intersectionality of race, gender, sexuality and how everybody gets oppressed by the burgeoi-.... Patriarchy
>>70091249
the 1% should give the 99% free health insurance so they can become physically stronger and rise up faster
>>70091305
Nitpicking, its still officially Communist isn't it? They just have too many people to take care of in true Communist spirit of free stuff
>>70091552
>Bakunin
>>70091159
When Mao died in the 70s Chija was in fucking shambles. 100 million people starved from Maos attempt at collectivizing. Officials realized that drastic change was needed to change to save china. So they began an experiment where local officials had significant political autonomy. Guess what regions did the best? The capitalist ones. China isnt nationally capitalist but instead creates zones around cities that are significantly more capitalist. Theyve gone from 4 to like 1300 in just a few decades because theyre working very well. Capitalism lifted out China from grinding 3rd world poverty
Hey everybody what about the great success of communism in Vietnam, where it worked out great for everyone and they became a shining example of communism for the world to see?
Oh...
>>70091117
Despite his results being wrong they have seeped deeply into global politics. The entire western world has declared that economic policy should not be whats empirically effective but rather what is determined to bring social justice. This view is deeply contrasted with the previous few hundred years. Social Justice is entirely derived from Marxism and is absolutely destorying economies. Whats worse is that groups that various social jusitce measures are meant to help seem to be in continually worse shape despite increasing social justice measures.
What is it about Marxism that makes it apparently unfalsifiable in the eyes of its adherents? Im skeptical if I can value its methodology if it causes its adherants to abanndon empiricism
>>70092370
social justice policies are typically closely associated with socialist policies aren't they? its possible that the social justice angle is pushed solely for the benefit of weakening or destroying capitalism, which would likely be the ultimate moral achievement in the eyes of marxists.
Actually he said many things interresting for understanding capitalism. For instance he said that states (and compagnies) would use many immigrants in order to decrease the global wage and to increase the unemployment (having more competition).
He called this phenomene the reserve army of labour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_army_of_labour
He was right, I don't need proofs to explain you how many immigrants are present in our country.
I didn't read Das Kapital but I have listenned a philosopher which explained that.
>>70092370
>The entire western world has declared that economic policy should not be whats empirically effective but rather what is determined to bring social justice
Did you just state that the US has an active intent to "bring social justice?" I seem to recall Occupy Wall Street, which was highly sympathetic to marxist values, but it failed utterly because no one of significance cared.
>>70091159
>like China
Did you forget that China incorporated Capitalism into their Communist system?China went from total Communism to a Capitalist based economic system while keeping their Communist government.Communism is a failure.That's why China decided to open up trade,and go somewhat capitalist.They knew their Communist government was a failing state,and would have collapsed like the other once Communist countries around them.
>>70091636
It's not nitpicking it's fact. The reason China didn't collapse like the USSR, and went on to improve its economy and standard of life is because they dropped Marxist-Maoism and became a mixed-market country.
"It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white, so long as it catches mice"
- Deng Xiaopang
>Xiaopang talking about capitalism and socialism
>>70092675
BLM is basically occupy2.0 but with extra racebaiting, and its gaining far more traction.
>>70092569
And yet all the democratic socialists still keep letting them in. And all the commies here cheer for more immigrants. Are communists even aware of the fullness of their ideology or is their adherence in name only?
>>70092844
Took me a second to figure out you meant Black Lives Matter not Bureau of Land Management.
You could claim any popular social movement is the next iteration of the previous popular social movement. It doesn't make you right but . . .
BLM is not a part of the the government, nor AFAIK recognized as a serious social issue any leader (or even candidate) or office as a serious social issue let alone sanctioned or endorsed.
>>70093009
bernie seems to take it fairly seriously, although i suppose it doesn't matter since he wont get the nom
>>70090162
I'm really not sure anon.
>>70093134
>i suppose it doesn't matter since he wont get the nom
He seems willing to bring platitudes to any extreme left position if it will result in more delegates but I agree with you that he's not going to get the nom. Even if he did, he'd likely drop any serious issues to curry favor from the moderates and independents that are necessary to win the election.
Regardless, neither the events involving BLM and Occupy clearly contradict the assertion:
>The entire western world has declared that economic policy should not be whats empirically effective but rather what is determined to bring social justice.
At least in the US. And I think it is fair to say the US is part of the "entire western world" if not the leading nation of the western world.
>>70093332
>*both BLM and Occupy clearly contradict the assertion . . .
>>70093326
kek
>>70092554
Thats kind of the way I see it. When you argue with a progressive about the effectiveness of an economic policy it always will end up with them talking about an oppressed group. For example minimum wage. You can give evidence that the minimum wage makes the poor poorer by destroying the jobs at the bottom of thr economic ladder. A progressive will either tell you that employers are just 'hoarding' their extra profits instead of paying wages. Instead of addressing the empirical evidence at hand progressives divert to screching about exploitation. Not understanding where profits come from in a capitalist system or how prices work is evidence of someone who ultimately believes in Marxist economics.
>>70092675
The US has had a social justice agenda since the end of the 1800s. Before that the government was very different. Social Justice includes things like Labor laws, minimum wage, social security, hundreds of thousands of regulations, public school, divorce laws, etc. The US previously did not take such an active role in the trying to maufacture society in the image of whatever social justice is percieved to be at the time
>>70090162
Carl Marx was a black man.
>>70091249
>yes goym we are all equal except for the shady bankers! Go protest along your BLM fellows and welcome refugees, so that I can have plenty of slave labor while you deal with all the unpleasant aspects connect to mass immigration!
Don't forget that the only racists are 1%ers!
>>70094178
>The US has had a social justice agenda since the end of the 1800s.
Let me guess. 14A was the beginning of this "social justice agenda?" Or shall we go even further back and claim it was when universal male suffrage was established? It seems to me that you categorize any codification of fundamental fairness is "social justice." FYI - Due Process is based upon a fundamental concept of fairness. However, there is a difference between fairness and social justice. For example, 18A would fit under the concept of social justice. From that event we learned the hard way that social justice is a questionable path to follow.
>>70091552
yea, his ideas on the ideal system are bullshit, but he frames (or framed) the systems of control we as society allow ourselves to be subject to. Back in the middle ages power was in land, controlled by monarchs. With the industrial revolution this power changed form to that of money, which is more or less how we live now.
Everything else he said was fucking stupid, but the way he sets that up I thought was spot on.
>>70093326
LGBTQ-I? what the fuck do they keep adding letters to this shit?
Never ran a company, never had a job..etc.
Tbh that sounds like 90% of modern politicians.
>>70094315
His name was Carl Moyabembe!
>>70094727
Look at this fucking bigot
>>70094315
We wuz marksists and shiet?
>>70094531
14th ammendment? No. That was more of a paradigm shift in who rights applied to. Social Justice is a specific state agenda to change society via policy. William Jennings Bryan really kick started idea that the purpose of government is to help the worst off. Before this the governments involvment in yhe economy was things like tariffs and quotas. Social Justice broght direct wealth redistribution. Ultimately people try to justify it by saying some group of people is oppressed and is owed something from another group pf people. The focus is on the class struggle rather than the reality of what is going on in the economy. This is no doubt inspired by Marx
>>70092693
>Did you forget that China incorporated PROTECTIONISM into their Communist system? China went from total Communism to a PROTECTIONIST based economic system while keeping their Communist government. Communism is a failure. That's why China decided to IMPOSE TARIFFS AND NON-TARIFF BARRIERS TO IMPORTS, and go full PROTECTIONIST.
ftfy
>>70095147
>Social Justice is a specific state agenda to change society via policy.
What government does not have a history of specific state action to change society via policy?
It seems you have a flawed concept of social justice.
>>70091552
Care to elaborate on how Nazism was Marxism done right?
>>70092910
I don't know for others countries, but in mine, the communist party was until the 80's against immigration and against the drugs. They were also quite patriotic
The problem was once that François Mitterand arrived in power (he was socialist, then social-democrat), he said that he was ok for the communists enter to the government but they had to make some concessions.
For instance, they had to stop to be against immigration. They accepted and now (in France) we have a communist party that has stopped to help the workers and prefer help the minorities. This is the reason why the majority of the votes of the communist party is going now to Marine Le Pen.
I don't think you will understand be watch this short video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG2BA9SxClM
Marxism is theory. Leninism is practise and it's awesome!!!!!!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CrTur5Ri0U
>>70091552
>Nazi movement was in fact marxism done right economically
>>70092693
>Russian here
>Stoped reading here.
Really think opinion of one bydla is relevant?
>>70095147
To clarify.
>It seems you have a flawed concept of social justice.
You consider the method which is universal in even the most despotic of dictatorships (just as a recent example Assad's use of military forces and policy to address protests) change society via policy. You have defined your notion of social justice entirely on the method, a universal method, and disregarded any consideration of intent and result.
>Before this the governments involvment in yhe economy was things like tariffs and quotas.
Because the government didn't try to get taxes before 16A? Of course this overlooks the history of economic regulations long before WJB took the platform. For example, regulations and subsidies for the transcontinental rail or the subsequent rate fixing.
>>70095222
Youre deeply mistaken if you think that governments today are at all similar to governments in history. The prevailing ideal of a Western Liberal Democracy is relatively new. IMO it didn't really have a defined identity until after WWII. But western countries have noticeably shifted to have a web of often bureaucratic programs meant to help one group or another. "Social safety nets" are a pretty new concept. The the prevailing view that governments are essentially meant to protect the weak is a new idea. Before social justice was the norm the US primarily saw the government as something to protect rights.
>>70095147
>Justice broght direct wealth redistribution
I've tried to recall any event which led to direct wealth distribution in the US and cannot think of any. What are you talking about?
>>70091552
>>70095562
>>70095439
LOL way to totally skip over the gulags, and the Holodomor.
But hey you're right, at least at the end, socialism triumphed in that country to this day!
oh... wait...
>>70095562
>Youre deeply mistaken if you think that governments today are at all similar to governments in history.
Nowhere did I claim that it was nor did I imply it. I pointed out how your definition of "social justice" is overly broad and ambiguous. It can apply to _any_ policy decision by _any_ government as every policy decision affects society in some way. That's why nations are defined not merely by their territory but also by its native population.
>But western countries have noticeably shifted to have a web of often bureaucratic programs meant to help one group or another. "Social safety nets" are a pretty new concept.
That is also true for every nation in all of history. Decision making on the national level always creates a group of winners and losers. For example, the Alien and Sedition Acts, a completely political move during the Adams administration to stifle the political voice of the Jeffersonian faction but by your definition it was an act of "social justice."
>>70095736
You goddamn idiot, pu's Russia is fully dependant on oil prices. Look at oil prices today and Russias GDP, it's as small as it was when pootin just took power.
>LOL way to totally skip over the gulags, and the Holodomor.
Meaningless buzzwords
>socialism triumphed in that country to this day!
Status quo will change, one day
>>70095562
Screwed up the quoting.
>"Social safety nets" are a pretty new concept.
Would you call the limitation of voting to propertied men when the Constitution was first established a "social safety net?" A "safety net" to protect one group of people in the nascent constitutional republic from the political, social, and even economic actions of other groups of people? IIRC, to protect against "mobocracy?"
>>70090162
His methodology was solid, his diagnosis of capitalism was accurate.
However, his proposed solutions were typical inexperienced social autism bullshit that does not acknowledge human nature, which is incompatible with Marx's ideals and will always lead to suffering and corruption when they are implemented.
>>70095605
>french resistance
Are people actually believe that meme?
Some based polish european deputy
>>70094727
I think that's intersex. Ya know this extremely rare condition where you have an inactive vagina behind your dick or something.
They add labels because they don't want to be stereotyped :^)
>>70090162
reminds me of a certain Sanders I know
>>70095933
You trully want to discuss what people belive in on /pol/? This discussion is going to take forever.
>>70095666
The irony of Soviet labor camps.
>its not slavery if we don't call it that!
Communism in a nutshell.
Not to mention the fact nobody had any freedom at all except the party members themselves.
>if nobody except government has freedom then its somehow better.
>>70095582
Social Security. Medicare. Medicaid. Progressive Income Tax.
These were done with with the specific reasoning that the poor need money from the wealthy. This contrasts the actions of government previously.
Look. What Im saying isnt really outside of the mainstream. Youre pretty much fighting me on semantics right now. The shift of government to promoting "social justice" is a well documented and very intentional change. Bottom of the history section briefly talks about social justice in the US:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice
>>70095605
Yeah you forgot the part about the Wermacht fucking kicking Russia's skull in and would have continued to do so had Hitler not been stupid about the whole winter thing.
Oh you also forgot that the 3rd Reich's total military deaths in the war were about 5.3 mil at worst and they lost about 9% of their population. Meanwhile muh'Soviets lost twice that number in military personnel and their population loss was around 13.7%.
Oh and don't forget their infrastructure was absolute shit compared to the Germans.
>>70090162
it makes people feel good
>>70095605
Lol, the rise of fascism was met with the banking cartels calling in literally all the favors they had saved up, and using all of their power and influence to bring fascism down. They sacrificed the British Empire and empowered their archnemesis the Soviets to do so.
World War 2 was the biggest case of 'SHUT IT DOWN" the world will ever see, because it was the closest international banking came to being overturned.
>>70096192
>Social Security.
Stopped reading here. You might want to learn more about how Social Security functions, including from the initial issuance of government bonds to today. That is at best an indirect redistribution of wealth but even that is fallacious.
You seem to believe that taxation itself is an act of direct wealth redistribution.
>>70090162
I read it as part of a course on Marxism I did at University.
As a purely materialist economic philosophy it is true. Then a lot of garbage got conflated with it.
>>70095666
>Unironic communists in the Baltics
I didn't even know they existed.
>>70091180
It's fundamental tenets are scientific and true. You are confusing economic Marxism with cultural Marxism.
>>70090162
You are actually fucking retarded
Marxism is a worldview, 'cultural marxism' is just 'cultural socialism'. 'Cultural marxism' doesn't for any intents or purposes make sense; marxism is the study of culture. Your stupid circlejerk post would be better if you said The Communist Manifesto rather than Das Kapital, but oh well, most /pol/ users can't differentiate either.
Good diagnosis, shit solutions.
>>70096118
>Muh Gulags
Meaningless buzzword. Gulags were left over from capitalis Russian EMpire that were closed in the 1950's.
Crapitalist USA still has it's own version of gulags.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BexkpaK_j5Q
>>70096061
Nah, I just trying to correct bs justification and one of many myths of wwII. French resistance was a fucking joke compared to other countries, yet in the movies and medias they are percieved as some mass uprising of french people, when actually it was a small group of french patriots, where most of french people dont gave a single fuck about the occupation, or was actually collaborating with the nazis.
>>70091567
That's cultural Marxism that came later. Marx didn't write about race or sex.
>>70095890
Christ dude. Try to at least try to what Im saying here. Yes, voting rights expanding in the 1800s may have brought justice to a previous unfair social order. But that has fucking nothing to do with what Im talking about.
Social Justice is a SPECIFIC POLITICAL MOVEMENT. I am not talking about societal changes may constitute the abstract concept of 'social justice'. I am talking about the political movementm
The intellectual arguments that led to voting rights expanding stemmed from individualist thought that was pretty similar to the founding fathers. It was NOT do to the more recent social justice mentality that is routinely identified, analyzed and documented by political historians, analysts and scientists. Social Justice as a political theory didn't really exist yet during the abolition of slavery
>>70096474
>Igonring all the destruction caused by the German Nazis in WW2...
Also, Everyone in the Baltics hate crapitalism, it's just that everyone is to afraid of word 'communizm'.
>>70096596
You can tell even people who support Marxism to be edgy know how shitty of an idea it actually is because of how defensive they get.
>>70096289
This is what stormafagots who live in their own little world believe in.
>>70095846
>meaningless buzzwords
lol tell that to the people who died XD what a phenomenal fucking rebuttal.
lol and yeah the Russian economy is down right now, oil prices dropped down to recession levels and the economy dipped only marginally when compared to '08. Drastic drops in a commodity's price tend to have an effect on the economy. They're still leagues above where they were at the end of the Soviet Union. and implying that the current downward trend is going to remain as such. Get fucking real dude.
>>70096289
You know that Nazi Germany had alies right?
Imperial Japan who had invaded bunch of Asian Countries and Latter attacked USA. Only after pearl harbour usa stepped in the war and it was nazi Germany who DECLARED WAR ON THE USA.
>>70096743
>Yes, voting rights expanding in the 1800s may have brought justice to a previous unfair social order. But that has fucking nothing to do with what Im talking about.
So you get to pick and choose what is and is not social justice even though other events fit within your definition? Not a very objective standard you use there.
>Social Justice is a SPECIFIC POLITICAL MOVEMENT.
What political movements are not social justice?
>Social Justice as a political theory didn't really exist yet during the abolition of slavery
Or historic political movements were the exact same but merely not called "social justice" back in those days because the term wasn't coined yet?
While some of his criticism is legitimate, I'm skeptical of any argument rooted in the dialectic.
>>70096870
But it will.
At least for the next 5 years or so.
Putin showed his agenda in Georgia, Ukraine and Syria and for now, he wont be percieved as potential ally, but as problematic adversary.
And since the best way to crash Russia's economy and stop it from expanding its influence is to drop down the oil prices, Yanks will make sure that the oil prices will be low. USA will put down Russia again without firing a single bullet.
>>70096870
Are you fucking mentally ill? Gulags were fucking prisons were criminals were send. Rapitsts, murderers and other scum were send there. Who gives a fuck about trash bags.
When Stalin took power literacy rate in Soviet Union was 20 percent and population was 148,656,000 million people , when Stalin died Literacy Rate was 99.99 percent and population was 182,321,000 despite biggest war of all time literacy rate and population both grew. So did industrial capabilities and scientific knowledge.
Furthermore life expectancy also rose. In1920's it was about 35 years, in 1960's it was about 70 years.
>>70097126
Not only that but its 2016 for fucks sake, Who gives a shit about gas and oil. Norma countries are investing into green energy, electrical cars. Soon the need for oil will be absent and then what will pootin do?
>>70096596
I read half of Das Kapital before making this post. It hasnt even said much about social conditions. So far it has literally just been him outline his economic theory which is absolutely fucking retarded. He thinks trading is zero-sum, what he calls value is actually price, he doesn't realize that price is subject to demand as much as it is subjected to supply constraints, he thinks cost of production only scale with labor inputs. It just keeps going on and on. I havent even got to his social implications of this theory. But Im having a hard time imagining how such a mess of economic thought can apply to anything
>>70097142
>Gulags were fucking prisons were criminals were send. Rapitsts, murderers and other scum were send there
ayy.
Tell that to war prisoners, political opposition "revolutionary element" from subjugated countries and whole societies which were rooted out of their homeland and replaled with russian settlers during russification process.
>>70096677
>left over from capitalists
lol gulags started being built in fucking 1918, after muh'Socialists had taken power
>closed in 1950s
lol well what the fuck took the glorious socialists so long to close the 'Capitalist' gulags?
>>70097324
More meaningless buzzwords.
I never knew Lithuana could contest Australia in sheer shitposting power.
>>70097370
>gulags started being built in fucking 1918,
You goddamn peace of dog shit. Lenin and Stalin were fucking send to Gulags during Tsars days. Gulags existed under Tsar and were closed under communism. Literaly every fucking empire had them. USA still has them.
>>70097458
According of opinion of one mauntain Jew.
>>70097405
>Y-your facts are just memes and b-buzzwords!
Go read a history book nigger, stop learing history from tabloids and clickbaits.
>>70097549
No you go read a history book... In biggest Empire of all time with giant population there were million prisoners? Fuck off with your alternative reality revisionist bulshit.
>>70097526
It's not even an opinion. You are either very young, naive, ""idealistic"" or heard stories from people on the privileged sides of socialism. Either way you perfectly qualify as yet another useful idiot who expects not to get put against a wall once your flawless system takes over.
>>70097236
kek.
Green energy is a true meme. It can supply 5-8% of country's energy consumtion, In perfect geographical conditions it can peak up to 15%, like in Scandinavia.
The enegetic grid still stands on coal, and, in future, it will trasition to atom energy. You can put your fairytails about green energy domination under the pillow.
>>70097625
>there were million prisoners
Actually more like 10 million at least.
>>70097625
Sure thing pal.
Soon Putin will pay You a visit and you will have the chance to experience that glorious political system by yourself.
A nation that does not know its history is doomed to repeat it.
Have fun. the borders will be closed BTW :^)
My nerves are to weak for this website. For the first time in 4chan's History I will admit that I am to angry. I have acted like communist should NOT act, and for that I am trully sorry, I am sorry for all the offensive words and for being so mean.
Sincerly am.
>>70098229
Wow what a faggot.
>>70098229
The issue is not with you being angered, but with the system you try to defend. I am aware of semantic manipulation and dismissing words like Gulag as "buzzwords" while coining all kinds of terms and claims.
I sincerely hope you get to live in communism or socialism in whatever form you imagine it, anon.
>>70097142
Yeah, Russia had a long way to climb, no fucking surprise. And don't bother with the whole 'They threw off capitalist oppression', no, they threw off elitist/monarchist oppression, though I'm sure you don't see a distinction.
And very well, point to Stalin on the Literacy Rate. Funny, that doesn't seem to have dropped since the end of socialism there.
>>70098229
You are either underage usefull idiot who read to much marxist bs on your shitty university while living off your parents income or you are from post-communist priviliged family who was colaborating with your county invader.
Either way, I despise you. :^)
>>70097474
>murican prisons are the same as Gulags
lol you are one deluded little cuck
>>70097625
lol did you just call the USSR the biggest empire of all time? XD
>>70090162
His theories are COMPLETELY outdated but I believe that considering the context of when he wrote it is actually pretty insightful and truthful.
The problem with it is that is still being study as a means of understanding our modern society when Marx never speak of financial capital, which is currently the primary source of capital in the world. So you have people that actually believe that in a financial capital world Marxist ideas and theories still apply.
>>70090162
All these fucking replies and no one's mentioned wheat yet?
Motherfucker was serious about that wheat.
I just finished a reread of The Gulag Archipelago, volume 1 tonight and started volume 2. Nothing positive about Marx should have survived the first half century of the Soviets.
>>70099121
Carry on. Get through all three volumes. It is worth it. I had to read all three volumes for a Political Philosophy class back in undergrad but I would have read them anyways.
>There are people on the /Pol/istinian Caliphb8 roleplaying forum with better economic credentials than Carlos Marxia
Damn...
>>70095736
15-25 million, minimum sent to Gulag. Survival rate unknown, real numbers unknown.
>>70096118
Gulags were so much worse than that. Just the first volume of the Gulag Archipelago convinced me that I never had any clue how fucking evil the Soviets were.
>>70097474
Blatant Lies. You do know Lenin and Stalin wrote about their time as political prisoners under the Tsar right? And how often Solzhenitsyn quotes them to draw contrasts between how they were treated and how they had people treated in The Gulag Archipelago?
>>70099253
Have done so before. Actually want to prepare something like an annotated version of the text to help support it now that it's passing from Current Affairs into history.
Especially in light of Stalin apologists like our psycho Lithuanian friend, it seems like the lessons of the gulag are being forgotten.
>>70091022
>dude we gonna take the rich people's money
>proceed to take all the poor people's money / food and kill them
Yeah great system
So piggybacking on this thread so as not to shit up the board;
My friend's dad was a dentist Jew living in the USSR. He lived his whole life there and escaped in his 30s with his goy wife and kids through Italy to America. This was all just before the wall came down in 1990. They came as "persecuted" Jewish refugees and ended up getting citizenship.
So my question to any Russians or history fags is how bad was it really for Jews in the USSR around that time? My friend says that his dad would trade dental work to officials for bribes and luxury goods so I have a hard time believing Jews had it so bad.
My theory is that he somehow new the wall was coming down and Russian would go back to being overwhelming Christian and less secure for the Jews.
>>70096743
Since it seems you've gone dark (had the sense to know when to stop posting I hope) I'll carry out the rest of the discussion to the desired result.
Social justice is a misnomer like judicial activism is. This is not to say that there isn't social justice nor judicial activism but that what gets labelled as such as inaccurate. Kind of like the misnomer of direct wealth resdistribution in regards to Social Security. That program was intended to function as a government trust, with the corpus built from sale of federal treasury bills. That money would pay for claims until social security tax taken from everyone's income (via a payroll tax) covered those costs and future costs. Social security takes money from those who earned it to give it back later as you are owed what you put in. This applies to everyone. Rich, poor, young, old. Of course, you may be taxed for any disbursements or payments from Social Security.
Anyway. This is the US government initially borrowing money to fund a program. No money was taken from the wealthy and then given to the poor. The rich (and even those who weren't rich but pooled their fund) _bought_ the t-bills to get a guaranteed return on investment. Definitively not wealth redistribution, not even an indirect one.
That's the power of labels. Once you slap it on something and it sticks it limits discussion and thought which results in a lack of understanding.
That's the problem with the term "Social Justice." It can be applied to every social movement. To every policy decision. Just like how the label "judicial activism" can be applied to every decision of every court. If you are going to talk about social justice it needs to be in a concise manner. One that can convey and objective standard and use common terms.
Else we end up with rather sad and usually pointless discussions.
>>70100019
I got it! We need to make it into a stage show similar to La Boheme.
>>70099121
You don't understand.
Marx is three parts: analysis of capitalist system (which is mostly right), prediction of what will come after capitalism (probably right), and ideas on how to proceed (mostly wrong).
Solzhenitsyn wasn't a fucking neoliberal/neocon drone like the people who quote him are.
Another critique often used is that of Orwell, and you ignore Orwell was a socialist.
These men would disagree/disagreed with ideas of liberal capitalism just as much as they disagreed with Bolsheviks.
Soviet system does represent one attempt, but it doesn't mean every socialist idea is invalidated from the start because their single-party dictatorship and centralized economy collapsed.
>>70100193
IIRC, atheism was enforced throughout the USSR. It lead to hundreds being persecuted (mostly Russian Orthodox IIRC). The persecution does not include the appropriation of church property. Thousands died. Though I remember that Stalin paid particular attention to Jews and Judaism and many Jewish church leaders were executed I also recall an attempt to convert Jews into state actors with a coopting of values reflected in the change from Hebrew to Yiddish. . .
>>70100604
I ignore Orwell because he was a socialist. His critiques and his works are worthless. He couldn't even denounce Lenin and Stalin openly, so that now every retard on the planet tries to co-opt his most famous work to attack their political opponents instead of reading it as the juvenile temper tantrum about Stalin that it was.
>>70100782
Wasn't Stalin half-Jew? Why would he be harsh on his own people?
>>70100857
National leaders have a long history of not wanting to share power and influence and churches have both. At best you can incorporate the a church and try to control it from within. Or, you can destroy it from without.
>>70090162
Marxist scholar here, and I'll say straight up first I am NOT a commie or socialist, used to be but changed when I studied economics history sociology etc.
Marxism itself is the idea that society and the hierarchy within it is dependent on economic conditions that when changed following trends change the order within it.
Marx identified the formation of economics always follows creation of a society higher than tribal states. He also said the drastic changes in societies happen in identifiable steps and used the identified rules of economics of his time to predict the next changes.
He said the first state, or Feudalism, is the control of economic production and centralization of it by an identifiable governing body who build up their productive means as a way to compete with other societies seeking to expand power and influence.
The stage following it, Capitalism, is when the expansion no longer needs state centralization as a means of reaching max efficiency and gives way to private interests to expand on their own and be ingrained in a voluntary trade system emphasizing less conflict between competing societies and merging them by mutual trade over long time periods.
Socialism to Marx was when the privatized ownership of productive means had reached max expansion and efficiency could only be created by organization of capital under central benefits to a populace economically, as a means of preventing inefficient monopolies or the capitalist class rigging the system to produce less for everyone but give more to them as a personal incentive.
Communism is when the process of organizing economic powers no longer needs a state or larger human group to plan and the system naturally reaches efficiency with the best known method in voluntary exchanges of capital and labor.within grassroot actions of a people.
Its arguable if he's right or not, but that's what Marx's theory was before it was 'reinterpreted'.
>>70100604
1984 was pansy-ass nonsense compared to what Lenin did and Stalin was worse.
There isn't a chance in hell Sozhenitsyn disagreed with capitalism as much as he did with the Bolsheviks. Check the last 50 pages or so of The Gulah Archipelago, Volume 1, section 2. He actually describes the moment of realization about communism, not just the Bolsheviks.
You could also check just about everything he wrote about post-Soviet Russia.
>>70091552
>we are slaves in the worst way
No, no we are not. Anyone who bandies around that term who actually lives in a capitalist economy with a relatively fair economy is delusional.
>>70096677
>starts off video with 'hello comrades'
into the bin it goes
>>70101135
>And now to lighten the tone in the thread of one quarter billion dead.
I don't see any mention of wheat. Opinion discarded. No one should ever attempt to talk about Marx as though he was in any way serious, or correct without mentioning all the damned wheat.
>>70090162
He has no economics theories.
He has a cultural interpretation of what economic interactions are.
>>70101385
Never said he was correct, only that his theory is much more centered in economic trends and large scale predictions of them.
Personally I believe some form of socialism is inevitable, but that it may take hundreds of years and a post scarcity world to make it happen.
This is the reason China is now practicing market capitalism since the implementation of 'socialism with Chinese characteristics' by Deng Xioping is basically capitalism managed to slowly build up socialism according to them.
>>70103201
>wheat
>>70090857
>le all leftism is the same meme
>le USSR was Marxist meme
>>70091180
It's not a religion, though almost all political ideologies have some things in common with religion.
>>70090162
>I just read about half of Das Kapital
no you didn't
>>70091856
>Mao killed 100 billion trillion people and ruined China and made everyone miserable!!1!
The actual number was closer to 25-30 million, which actually isn't that much seeing how China had suffered much worse famines that had killed in total many more people than that. Also the famine from failed industrialization was the last famine China suffered. In the broad scale, Mao technically ended famine.
Marxism has a huge psychological pull for certain unstable individuals (think Jim Jones, he of the cyanide Kool-Aid, and his admiration of Stalin's purges)...it allows them to show off their fake egalitarian goals while secretly allowing all the Commie psychological weirdness and sadomasochism. High(er) IQ people have had no excuse to join the Communist Party since Khruschev exposed Stalin, which is why it's so evil every time they (still) consciously manipulate all the credulous black people to become Communists. Because it's 'anti-racist'!
P.S., white women would also fuck black guys to get them to join The Party. Not kidding. Jim Jones (the sickest fuck) used to love that little historical tidbit, too.
>>70103335
I have actually no idea what you mean by wheat, as in food production?
>>70095736
>muh 66 gorillion
The Holodomor killed like 3 million. Terrible but it's not the apocalyptic event it's shown to be. The GULAG system wasn't an extermination system. It was primarily a system of slave labor where conditions sometimes were fatal. Death rates in the camps dropped IIRC after the war and after modernization. The system essentially closed in 1953.
>>70098603
>literacy didn't drop
Life expectancy and standard of living did though.
>>70098697
Even though there is no American prison equivalent to Kolyma, American prisons are some of the worst in the developed world.
>>70100857
He wasn't. He was Georgian.
>>70101385
>250 billion
wat
>>70100813
>His critiques and his works are worthless.
For you.
>He couldn't even denounce Lenin and Stalin
What is Animal Farm and 1984?
>>70101205
>was worse
Well since I read both about Stalin period and since I read 1984, I'm gonna have to call you an idiot. Stalin was bad of course, but 1984 is obvious hyperbole.
>There isn't a chance in hell
Solzhenitsyn was a fucking Russian nationalist you moron.
He disagreed with Soviet regime and Bolshevism because it suppressed the Russian nationalism. He also believed in important role of Orthodoxy.
His disagreements with Bolsheviks were purely cultural, not economic.
He disliked globalism and cultural relativism intensely, the things that are hallmarks of neoliberalism/neoconservatism.
>>70096713
The role of the French resistance was so overplayed it gave rise to long running British comedy series that taught me everything I needed to know about occupied France.
https://youtu.be/OFHeBFEJvOE
