Religion is primitive degeneracy
Faith is not a virtue. Believing in a higher power is no different than believing in all problems being solved by huge government. You're worse than liberals.
The superstitions of cattle sacrificing primitives are worthless
When calling me a fedora wearing, euphoric, Reddit browsing neckbeard, remember that you've disputed none of my claims and are diverting away from your own paltry cognitive dissonance.
>>70089586
Stop being a fag. There's one enemy and one enemy only.
>>70089686
kike detected
>>70089686
Atleast islam can be respected as a religion. All christianity has done is murdering and wars, islam invented algebra and contribited alot. I'm glad I'm getting more muslim neighbours.
>>70089586
So far Secularism has been leading decline of the western.
>>70089827
How the fuck did Islam invent algebra? Islam isn't a sentient being or even a race of people.
>hey did you guys hear? Buddhism discovered electricity
>>70089974
Forever waiting on a source to this claim.
PROTIP: there isn't one behind your dumbass pastor
>>70089974
Also your grammar is fucked.
>>70089974
This
>>70089586
OP you idiot, you need to realise that states never truly become secular or atheistic. They leave a vacuum that will be filled by another religion i.e. Islam
>>70089827
SWEDEN YES
>>70090082
Fuck off Cultural Marxist
>>70089813
>muh jew
Islamo faggot strike again.
>>70089586
Believing in a just god makes morality rational, at all times.
>>70089827
>Islam invented algebra
That's like saying Christianity formed basic laws of modern physics because Isaac Newton was a Christian.
>>70089827
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_science
educate yourself you pathetic cuck
>>70089586
you could say the opposite of the pic as well
>i challenge you to find one bad or non noble thing which cannot be accomplished without religion
you could assume that with god you can push all kind of shit upon others, same as no religion at all
what matters is the people, if THE PEOPLE are violent vile criminal like group, the perfect utopia called demoracy cannot work
you can only have working democracy in europe/usa if people unite as one nation in nationalism, something that white people are always key on. addition to that distrust of outsiders, the moment they make mistake, kill or exite them, they change perfect utopia away from what it is if allowed to stay and breath on the soil. freedom has its price
>>70089586
The human mind evolved within religion. It needs religion. If it doesn't get it, it creates religion. You get New Age crystal cults. You get SJW cults. You get Maoist cults.
The question is not shall we have religion or not. The question is, which religion leads to the most stable and pleasant society for humans?
>>70090515
[citation needed] every 3 words top fucking kek
>>70089586
>Good or noble thing which cannot be accomplished without religion
Yeah, it's called a functioning civilization.
>>70090843
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_science
yeah only 110 citations, clearly all made up
>>70089586
You worship something else, not god, but a fedora.
Cool story omniscient omnipotent 4chin poster.
I do not loathe atheists, as most atheists claims to loathe believers. I am not angered by their failure to see what appears obvious to me. I understand that they see differently. I do think that they have reasons for their belief, as I have reasons for mine, which are the real foundations of this argument.
It is my belief that passions as strong as theirs are more likely to be countered by the unexpected force of poetry, which can ambush the human heart at any time.
It is also my view that, as with all atheists, they are their own chief opponent. As long as they can convince themselves, nobody else will persuade them. Their arguments are to some extent internally coherent and are a sort of explanation - if not the best explanation - of the world and the universe.
They often assume that moral truths are self-evident, attributing purpose to the universe and swerving dangerously round the problem of conscience - which surely cannot be conscience if they are right since the idea of conscience depends on it being implanted by God. If there is no God then your moral qualms might just as easily be the result of indigestion.
Yet they are astonishingly unable to grasp that these assumptions are problems for their argument. This inability closes their mind to a great part of the debate, and so makes their atheist faith insuperable for as long as they themselves choose to accept it.
Things people want that religion provides:
1. leader
2. bigger context that provides meaning to life
3. feeling of control over things
4. belief in life after death
5. basis for right and wrong
It doesn't matter if this stuff is true or not. It has strong placebo effects. People like it. Scientists would do better, instead of trying to tear down religion, to build one up, one that satisfies the human mind in the best way possible. Why can't science create a new and improved religion with twice the benefits and none of the harmful side effects?
>>70089586
I just went to my local library and rented his book god is not great. ( keked at the title / mocking islam ). Pretty based. Sure it's not the God Delusion, but its a good read anyway.
You don't have any claims, fedorafag. You have tired Dawkins talking points that have been refuted endlessly.
>>70089586
>Faith is not a virtue.
Neither is faithlessness.
So, then, what is the true virtue? Liberty. Liberty to live either a religious or irreligious life, where the rights and privileges of all parties are guaranteed and protected under a secular government which itself has no preference towards either side. This has been one of the single greatest tools for peace in the history of mankind, period.
How? Why? Many people might ask those questions, and the answer as to why religious expression (irreligious also) must be protected and tolerated is very simple to understand. There is far less bloodshed in places where people can live as they please. Yep, there it is. After 10,000 years of war, genocide, massacres, atrocities, tortures, and other tragic events, we finally learned that it is better to coexist peacefully than to try and win the day for our cause by putting people to the sword.
Any person who feels differently is a person who can only win the day for their cause by taking up a sword, thereby plunging the West back into the same cycle of bullshit that took millennia to crawl out of the first time around.
No, secular governments, guided by certain universal metaphysical principles (intrinsic "self-evident" rights), are the best means of governance ever devised.
>>70091362
God doesn't exists. That's a claim, but I can't prove the non existence of something, that said, I surely won't base my entire life around tall tales of murders.
>>70089586
I absolutely agree with you, OP. I can't wrap my head around the general support for Christianity on /pol/. At the best of times, the board is fuelled by intelligent source-driven debate. This never seems to be possible on the subect of religion here. Insert Fedora Meme. It would be nice to have a back-and-forth discussion on the topic with a theist every now and then without the predictable descent into /b/-tier meme based arguement (often from both sides, I'll admit).
religion is faith for the faithless, the brainless, the heartless : the people.
>>70091521
K, your loss.
>>70089586
The salvation of souls.
Worst brother.
>>70091605
This seems to be the experience with most atheist on /pol/. Perhaps there is a board somewhere that isn't infected by Atheism+ that has a great atheist community. Personnally, I never responded to shitposting with shitposting.
>>70091521
Have you ever played a role-playing game, where you pretended to be an adventurer out killing monsters and stuff? It wasn't real, but maybe it was fun to pretend. Why can't religion be like that? You can just pretend it's true. What's the hang-up of having to live in reality all the time? To me, the insistence on living in reality is just as superstitious as believing in religion. It doesn't really matter, except for certain things like paying bills and taking care of your health. You can pretend anything you want.
>>70091756
I would say that Atheists are living in a sort of fantasy world, one devoid of ultimate consequences for your actions and one devoid of any concrete morals.
>>70091899
What do you think of an atheist who really doesn't believe in ultimate consequences, morality, demons, angels, the hand of god, and all that, but he pretends he does as a form of entertainment? Like right now, I could pretend that I am possessed by a spirit that is making me talk about this.
>>70091899
The is consequence for what you do no matter if god is involved or not. How can you say otherwise ? If you kill someone and don't get caught, you still have killed someone. There may not be judgement in my minds eyes when we die, but here in this world consequences to actions are as real as you get, that's how you get a concrete moral.
>>70091756
The insistence of saying that we should refer to reality when it matters is only because we are living in reality. Or at least everything points in that direction. I get the need for a relief when life goes to shit, I either meditate on it or either consider the fact that one day my conscience will be no more and that nothing then will affect me, because I won't be. ( that sounds vacuous be that's just how we all will end )
>>70091667
>read post
>kek
>look at the flag
>kek even more
>>70091899
Or maybe that concrete morals come from within. A strong moral culture that fosters creative thinking is a better alternative to essentially brainwashing people into being good. Also, basing one's moral standings on a hard set of laws opens up things like Uganda's slaughter of gay people under the name of religion/purity or all the shit that we know islam inspires it's idiots to do. A strong moral ideology doesn't have anything to do with faith. Atheists are underrepresented in prison and crime statistics, which essentially disproves the "immoral atheist " trope.
>>70092240
Surely there are certain realities that you have to face, such as that you cannot eat rocks, and lots of other things. But there are some things that you can pretend without ever running into the brick wall of reality. You can pretend that you will live after you die. You can pretend that the whole theology of Christianity is true. You can pretend that you are a medieval knight reincarnated, and you can have a whole alternative persona. You can pretend you are an alien who was abandoned on this planet. You can create all kinds of background life stories that you pretend are true. Of course you can't pretend at work, and you couldn't tell people about it. but when you are alone, you can think about it and try to immerse yourself in a completely alternate reality where all kinds of things that aren't really true are true.
>>70092047
I mean it doesn't bother me, if we can at least salvage the cultural traditions of Christianity that's better than the absolute destruction of anything remotely Christian from our society.
>>70092240
Not sure that made any sense. What is the judgment if you don't get caught?
>>70092429
Atheist are also one of the last if not the last, legit group to suffer discrimination in the US for the running of public office. Although it is suspected that many great americans have been agnostic/atheist, they had to play the game to get in position, wich is morally abject.
>>70089586
Those godless commies sure did some noble things... Like killing a bunch Slavs! Amirite?
>>70092429
"Concrete morals come from within" sounds like some shitty Deepak Chopra quote. It means nothing. An absolutely logical atheist will come to the conclusion that morals are anything but concrete; they differ based on individuals, and an individual who wants to cleanse the earth of humans is no worse or better than anyone else. There is no standard with which to compare one's morals to.
>>70089827
tell me where you live muhammed, and i will slit your throat while you sleep and rape your mother on top of your dead corpse afterwards
>>70092671
Didn't you hear? Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, the Kims weren't TRUE atheists!! They were actually the most religious people on earth! Source: some new atheist shitrag
>>70089586
Religion is Morality 101 for weak minded. Problem is, some of it can be pretty outdated and that hits the fan.
>>70092738
Yeah, if a comet hit the earth and destroyed all life on it, the entire universe wouldn't give a flying fuck. It absolutely would not matter to anyone. It wouldn't be right or wrong, good or bad.
>>70092647
Interestingly enough, you rarely hear atheists outside of strawmen and internet whiners complaining about discrimination. I mean it isn't unreasonable to keep church and state separate, as is laid out by our constitution, but no one would even dream of hearing it in our congress.
>>70092835
So why is the purposeful extinction of humanity inherently "bad"?
>>70092565
The is no '' punishement '' if you don't get caught, althought remorse will probably haunt most of the guilty. That said, the consequence of killing, stealing, lying, raping is evident. I base most of my moral judgement on the effect that my actions, or someonelse's actions, produce. Like pretty much everyone who doesn' t look up the his or her holy book to answer each question of morality.
>>70092515
Sure you can do that, agreed you can and a large number of people are living their fantasy, I don't deny it, nor the positive effect it can have, but then that just means you are subject to unreasonable acts, like mass suicide amongst cults, sure they didn't hurt anyone until they kill themselves for some revelated truth.
>>70092738
That is just a shitty moral relativism argument. What I mean by "concrete moral can come from within" is that one can create their own morals without religion. Logical and moral people should be able to look at the environment around them and things they learn through their experiences and synthesize that into strong morals.
>>70089586
Believing that the higher power will give you the strength for you to take on any challenge that comes your way pushes us forward.
Axiom is the only way for the world to work efficiently. Some things just have to be held as true because they work; this is why religious doctrine can be a powerful tool for human development.
Christian prayer before bedtime has scientifically proven benefits. You can choose to deny God's presence, but the fact is that by focusing on the day ahead and praying about it, you tell your mind to rest, prepare, and write neural pathways that will best help you succeed.
You're right. The vast majority of religious societies accomplished dick all. The only one with a proven track record of success is Christianity, with nightly prayer.
>>70092968
I don't think it is. The most extreme human suffering experienced by the greatest number of people possible doesn't really matter either. We can pretend it does, but it doesn't. Pretending it does is just as pretend as religion.
>>70092968
It seems evident that the complete extinction of the most intelligent lifeform knowns to us, ( human ), is a bad thing. Inherently bad/wrong/unsavory. Some surely deserve to be killed, but most are just here to keep the evolution train going on, and thats a good thing.
>>70089827
Lol they took the bait.
>edgy cigarette to look cool
Lol
>>70091203
Because they are lazy, greedy, and all around human. These are all things you must discard to advance your fellow man.
There's no beating game theory.
>>70093158
Good to whom? Or better, good where? Is it good or bad 3,000 miles or more from the surface of the earth?
>>70092830
I guess I'm Stumped
>>70093004
You aren't actually saying anything though.
>>70093056
>one can create their own morals without religion.
Ok?
>Logical and moral people should be able to look at the environment around them and things they learn through their experiences and synthesize that into strong morals.
Lolwat? How does being logical in any situation lead to good morals? If I were to abandon my faith and live my life purely based on logic, I would give no shits about pretty much anyone besides me and my immediate family. Does that make me a shitty person? Maybe, but it also says a lot about what relying on pure "logic" will lead you to. It's really not difficult to make the small leap logically from that position to eugenics and ethnic cleansing.
>>70089586
>Literally holds communist views
>Calls others degenerate
>See a homeless man and give him food
>Somehow this is the work of religion and not just me giving a homeless dude food
99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the universe is more than 3,000 miles away from the surface of earth, and out there, what happens here doesn't matter. So given that in such a large majority of space what happens on earth doesn't matter, I have to say, it seems pretty irrelevant what happens here, in the big picture.
>>70093158
You don't have any scientific evidence that that is a "good thing". To the trash with your argument.
>>70092830
Didn't you hear? Osama, Hitler, Idi Amin, al-Bahdadi, the Phelps, and Jim Jones weren't TRUE believers!! They were actually the most atheist people on earth! Source: some new religious shitrag
>>70093198
You can beat that. Douglas Hofstadter lays out a super-rational way of thinking. It is, that, /being rational, everyone is going to make the same choice/. Now which choice is that going to be?
You take others' rationality into account (and assume they do yours, too) and you get the virtuous answer.
Note: when you challenge atheists who claim that there is some concrete moral code to be subscribed to, it's amazing how quickly they abandon their supposed reverence for the scientific method. Either God exists and your actions matter, or we are simply the random arrangement of matter and there is no such thing as good or evil. Those are your two options.
>>70089827
oh sweden, you're lost
>>70093445
You get stuck in an infinite logical loop if you do this.
It ceases to be rational at this point.
>>70089586
Civilization.
>>70089586
Making people feel bad for sinning....
>>70093439
Wow you really showed that person in here who never made the claim that religious people can't be violent
>>70093524
I'm an atheist, and I accept that there is no right or wrong, except what we pretend into existence. But I also think it's perfectly fine to pretend that any religion you like is true. It's like I got so atheist that I even became atheist against atheism.
>>70093198
>Because they are lazy, greedy, and all around human. These are all things you must discard to advance your fellow man.
Communist spotted.
>>70089586
Do you have any first hand proof of evolution or the big bang?
>>70093599
Cultural Marxists manage to do that just fine.
>>70093716
Absolutely. There's nothing SJWs remind me more of than bible thumpers, always trying to catch people sinning or being racist. And if they can't catch anyone, they start making it up, like those people who used to hear secret Satanic messages when playing records backward. They loved finding evil so much they had to make it up, just like SJWs do with racism.
>>70093673
I respect that stance infinitely more. At least you're following atheism through to the logical conclusion.
>>70093398
Morals only matter to conscious being, the is no moral without sentience. Thus moral are derived to what happen to consicous being. I'm not elaborating too much on it but this is clearly a base for morals. Morality is studied in social psychology. Jonathan Haidth is a good reference to what I'm refering to.
>>70093842
Nevertheless, I do pretend there is right and wrong. I also pretend I have free will, even though I don't believe in that either.
>>70089586
while it is not entirely false that religion laid the foundation of the metric on which we measure degeneracy it is no longer applicable to modern society or the conduction of government. with that said it is foolish and purely arrogant to ridicule or shame those who hold religious beliefs so long as they keep them from influencing public or government policy.
no one likes a tambourine bashing zealot nor a euphoric fedora tipper.
>>70093916
So is there any significance to the idea of morality beyond "what I do/don't like"?
>>70093949
I have never understood this argument. My religion informs my morality, and my morality informs my political preferences. Why is this a problem? What should I be basing my political decisions on instead?
The universe itself is growing, evolving and conscious. No, it doesn't care what you think.
>>70093916
Doesn't Haidt say that morality isn't actually rational? He may have changed his theory, but it used to be "tail wag the dog," meaning that people would make moral judgments automatically, like a reflex, and then subsequently make up a reason to justify their reflex, rather than doing the thinking first, and then coming to a conclusion. Here's a paper on it:
http://www3.nd.edu/~wcarbona/Haidt%202001.pdf
>>70089586
Name one good or noble thing done by Hitchens. Name one good or noble thing done by any atheist. Atheists are fundamentally evil people. Atheism has caused more deaths than any other ideology. Atheists are the 3rd column for Islamic infiltration. Atheists are the vanguard of feminism and sjwdom.
Basically, do the world a favour and kill yourself
>>70089586
Religion is not meant for individual good and noble deeds. Religion is meant for MASS good deeds and behaviour. Without religion you can't have these things.
Why your woman cheats on you? Because she thinks that, if nobody knows, nobody gets hurt.
Why people commit crimes? Because they think they're not gonna get caught and they don't respect the man's law.
Why people become depressed, suicidal, lost? Because they can't find a purpose. They don't have a guide with answers. They don't see the point of life if it's going to end in nothingness anyway.
>>70094149
we're not a theocratic shithole, so if you want your morality to become policy then it must be justified by something other than "muh religion"
>>70089586
The issue with the average atheist is that they claim to accept Reality as she, yet do not want to remove women's suffrage.
They do not want to genocide subhumans.
They do not want to slaughter the religious and superstitious.
They refuse to accept reality, letting their conforting fantasy supercede it, much like the religious.
Accepting secular dogma doesn't mean you're superior to people accepting religious dogma.
In fact, you're worse. You displayed some inkling of logical thought through your atheism, yet fail to apply it in others areas.
The religious didn't, and probably cannot. You, you have no excuses.
Ah, i guess it is as it is. Expecting you to change your nature would be my own delusion.
You cannot deny Reality for long. She do not care about your beliefs.
Let the machinegod rise, and judge us, and cleanse us. Amen.
>>70094059
Yes, there is, what you like, or don't like is irrelevant as far as morality is concerned. I follow a morality that is actionable upon the merits of consequences.
Ex
If you kill a stanger just for the sake of killing, it is inhenrently an immoral act, because you take
away their life, wich they have a right to.
A hypothetical for atheists: I just took le red pill, did some science, smoked some dank reefer and decided that gOD don't real. I realized that life is ultimately meaningless and I really don't have any reason to live anymore, but I want to go out with a bang. I want to shoot up a preschool and see how many kills I get before the cops gun me down. Is there any reason I shouldn't do this? Convince me.
>>70094396
We have to justify our votes for our votes to count? I always vote based on flipping a coin. Is that allowed?
>>70094241
Good and noble deeds are defined by a religion. Morality comes from religion not the other way round. Purely human derived systems of morality always lead to disaster (ie Marxism, Feminism, Transgenderism, hedonism). There is a reason why charities are still dominated by churches. Atheism is just another form of Satanism, this is why most atheists are such awful people
>>70094396
No you are a sjw shithole
>>70094426
How do you know they have a right to it?
How do you know taking away people's rights is wrong?
Seems arbitrary to me.
>>70094426
>If you kill a stanger just for the sake of killing, it is inhenrently an immoral act, because you take away their life, wich they have a right to.
Where is the scientific evidence that they have a right to their life?
>>70094460
Basic biological empathy? Are you a sadist?
>>70094462
> We have to justify our votes for our votes to count?
in order for the supreme court to uphold the law
>>70094414
So your apologia for atheism includes the following dicta:
The mass murder of religious people
The equating of religious with subhumans
You contend, you disgusting slimy garlic munching amphibian, that only atheists are capable of logic. Yet most real scientific/cultural advances, let's say 99%, have been a product of the religious mind. Fuck off madame guillotine
>>70093524
There's nothing supernatural about agreeing to follow a code of conduct for social cohesion.
It's like people claiming marriage is religious when it's just a couple agreeing to a set of rules in their relationship.
Meanwhile Abrahamic religious "morals" are basically "be a nice person I mean unless they're outsiders then genocide them all or God tells you to kill your own kids or some shit then that's ok".
>>70094227
Hitchens did lots of work with civil rights activists in the middle east, he did more to stop Islamic extremism and immigration than any retard on here who just sits about getting angry.
I also got two homeless women jobs as cleaners last month, more charity work than any religious person on here has done (since you're not actually religious and know it's not real but just want to fit in on /pol/ lmao)
>>70094207
It is rational if you consider that we are born with some moral tid bits. Like in the case of incest or bad traitement of a kin. Also, thanks for the civility. A change given we are on /pol/.
>>70094590
humans rights are a human construct humane people respect for the sake of regeneracy
>>70089827
>proxy sweden
>this obvious bait
>surely nobody will fall for it
>8 replies
guess i'll add another one then, fucking newfags i swear to god
>>70094426
Christianity is superior. It maintains that life is inherently valuable, and that to take any life must require very significant reasons. Not just, 'will I kill this person or no'.
>>70094638
The law doesn't have to say it's based on religion, and it still can be. Say a majority wants to make selling shellfish as food illegal because of their religion, and they vote for legislators that make that law. But the law doesn't say anything about religion. How would that law be unconstitutional?
>>70094460
Empathy is genetic.
Empathy combined with intellect result in natural morality, in instinctive golden rule.
Subhumans lack both empathy and intellect.
No one can stop you but you, subhuman.
>>70094460
Because you'll feel absolutely horrible the second you pull the trigger and might get shot in the spine or something by cops.
Meanwhile it would be 100% logical to a religious person to do it if God told them to.
>ITT: /pol/ worshipping the Jew on a cross
>>70089586
I challenge you to define "good" and "noble" without using morality derived from religion.
>>70094682
Hitchens supported the endless Middle Eastern wars, which did more to break down world order than anything else. Just a smarmy, supercilious barely reconstructed commie. You helped a couple of leprechauns did you? did you take their pots of gold first
>>70094606
Maybe, what's wrong with being a sadist?
>>70089586
>pic
You also can do without anything that isn't oxygen, water and digestible chemicals, doesn't mean that those things won't improve your life in some way.
Atheism is proven to pave the way for degeneracy and to go hand in hand with it more than often, while modern Christianity is nothing but positivity. Just because you presumably are an exception to this rule that doesn't mean said rule isn't true often enough to justify the association of atheism with degeneracy, fedora and all kinds of negativity.
And most importantly, I don't need to justify my faith to you or anyone else, only to me. You literally don't know a thing about religion, and this, together with your epic passive aggressive fedora, is what makes you people so disgusting.
Faggot.
>>70094149
no one can truly lay a foundation of a moral code with or without religion. there are simply too many contradictions and juxtapositions within any given religion for the moral code to hold any honorable merit. however, we can come to an agreement on how to conduct ourselves within the context of a society or nations.
i think we can all agree that death is generally bad so murder should be punishable but we mustn't be so frightened by it in terms of the terminally ill or abortion.
>>70094878
The Marquis de Sade along with most of the psychopaths of history was an atheist
>>70094659
There is no apologia. This will never be implemented - not yet.
The time of lone wolf discriminating attacks with a statistically significant casualty rate is not upon us.
>>70089586
placating the morons over the impossibility of knowing what happens after death and giving them a way to cope with the meaninglessness of life
>>70094736
Selfishness is genetic too. And empathy is mostly genetic for our close ingroup, like the small groups we evolved of about a dozen people, with outsiders being enemies that we want to kill, and for whom we don't have empathy.
So does morality say we care for our close ingroup, but we kill outsiders?
>>70094885
SJWdom=atheism in most cases, and is a product of atheist, marxist, materialist, and existentialist philosophy. SJWdom, although referencing some parts of Christianity at times (the wet blanket version) is essentially the atheist ethic of our age
>>70089586
To answer the OP pic
True charity
Non-religious people who perform acts of charity do it only for the feeling of self validation and worth.
>>70094590
It's not a scientific fact that people have a right to life, that is why abortion is not immoral, although i'll conceide it is a hard case, but I digress. The human right are a concensus on how to live amongst one another, to pursue human flourishing, wich again, leads to effect actions have on sentient beings, the base of a consequentionalist set of moral.
>>70094892
Morality has to be essentially universal, or it is worthless. If everyone has their own moral code, there can only be chaos. If every individual had their own 'take' on murder then society couldn't function
>>70094926
You show that the mindset of the militant atheist is no different from the militant Muslim. Any falling away from the truth can only lead to one thing, Satanic evil
>>70094935
Doesn't seem to be working for you
>>70094965
Yes.
http://jasss.soc.surrey.ac.uk/16/3/7.html
Anything else is treachery or failure.
Trading future suffering for immediate virtue signaling.
This is reality. But atheists like you probably will reject it, as it contradict secular dogma.
>>70094736
For all the claims you atheists make of being logical and rational, you sure like to abstain from using any solid logic in your arguments on morality. The best you can do to convince me not to shoot up a school because "ur subhuman nd very dum". Keep in mind, I might be insanely cruel, but being violent and cruel is not mutually exclusive to being purely logical. The fact that you can't convince me using logic suggests something awry in your argument.
>>70094745
No I won't. Humans are worth no more than a pile of rocks. Nothing matters.
>>70094460
>Is there any reason I shouldn't do this? Convince me.
Empathy is an evolutionary advantage. Not just so you don't kill and eat your own kids, but that you can build communities and prosper by distributing labour and risk.
In our safe society and superior culture there's no reason other than pure madness and genetic inferiority you would go on a killing spree like that.
In shitskin countries it's different, because they don't value life like we do.
In an ultimate sense, will those kids matter to the direction of the planet and life in general? No. I think you know this. I think you know that history doesn't have every name of everyone who lived written down and remembered.
Only a rare handful of people end up mattering for posterity and that only in human terms (ie. in a span of hundreds or thousands of years).
Enlarge the perspective to tens of thousands of years and there might be one or two people from our time remembered as significant. The vast majority is just individual snowflakes that made up the avalanche.
You think this is bleak, but in fact it's very sobering and freeing. This life is all you get. These moments are only fleetingly important.
If you don't do anything with them and don't find meaning in them, you are truly wasting your life.
>>70095028
Talk fucking English
>>70089586
Atheist have to aggressively tell other people about the badness of religion because they don't feel secure yet. Deep inside, they're still not sure.
>>70094885
>posts merchant hands
>believes in the Jew on a cross
So, how long have you been cucked Gepetto?
>>70095049
which is why i said an agreement should be made. religious morality in its pure form is incompatible with the modern world and any moral code we can agree upon now will also be outdated in 1000 years.
>>70094878
Would you like it if a sadist tortured you every night? Or are you retarded?
>>70095132
No, I'm an atheist who thinks there is no basis for morality. The best we have is the social contract, but even that assumes that everyone has the same amount of power. People who have more power would have no reason to abide by the social contract.
>>70089586
>Believing in a higher power is no different than believing in all problems being solved by huge government
So humans are in full control over
-where they are born
-what genetics they have(short,tall,length of limbs, race and many other characteristics)
-whether they are born healthy or ill/dissfigured
-their mother dying after giving birth
-the wealth of the family they are born in
-the nation/tribe/ethnicity they belong to
-time of death
and many more things like whether you get bitten by an AIDS infected mosquito in your lifetime
how are these not determined by some natural laws, actions and reactions, that we've named God?
>>70095208
Could have been a reptilian on a cross, I couldn't care less, Cuckador
>>70095133
You might believe humans are no more than a pile of rocks, which means you don't value yourself, but your value is subjective. I believe you and I have value and can enjoy the life we have peacefully.
>>70090625
"Good people will do good things, bad people will do good things, but it takes religion to make good people to do bad things"
Hitchens
>>70095253
By social contract, I mean that I agree not to kill you so that you will agree not to kill me, and we do this on a societal level. My morality then is based on what I want for myself, and I make a deal with you to do the same by you, so that you will do it to me. But at heart this morality is selfish.
And it doesn't constrain people who have more power. Someone who has more power than you has no fear that you will kill him, so he makes no promise to you that he won't kill you.
Essentially, atheism and materialism have given us the selfish, amoral and unhappy generations that we now see, whose only interest is self interest, who are self absorbed, narcissistic and unable to form proper relationships. During times of less hostility to the idea of faith, people were invariably happier. It wasn't the case that doubt or atheism didn't exist. But most average folk sensed that the idea of subjecting one's beliefs to the relentless assault of bitter, unfulfilled atheists was a waste of time. The world is now beyond redemption, because of the lack of any good impulse amongst the vast majority of Earth's inhabitants. The spiritual emptiness is vast, therefore millenials turn to the spiritual quackery of feminism and other isms, vast and implacable sets of dogma.
I think that those who have won their atheism probably deserve it
>>70095145
It seems like you're trying to make the case that having good morals (usually people mean Christian morals when they say this btw) is a net benefit for society, which I agree with. What you're failing to convince me of is the idea that I as an individual should accept morals that procure the future of my family or nation or species above morals that seek to simply satisfy my lust for power, sex, blood, etc. There is ultimately no way to argue that the preference of life is logically superior to the preference of death. There is no good or evil in atheism.
>>70095253
No human will accept as universal an ethics code devised by another human, yes
>>70095395
Yet he was a fucking idiot
>>70095244
The golden rule can't be arrived at through pure logic. You're using an emotional argument. What are you, some kind of religious cuck?
>>70095453
Therefore, as Voltaire said, even if God did not exist it was necessary to invent him
>>70095416
So now you're conflating selfishness, materialism, and amorality with atheism so I suppose reasonable argumentation isn't your strong suit?
>>70089586
>Christian imageboard
>>70095150
I may not be straight forward, but what I write is all in english and rather understandable with a decent knowledge of the language. That said, I might have slipped, I didn't notice if I did, but what I posted seems to be reasonably well written.
>>70095469
Except for, you know, the billions of Muslims, Christians, and Hindus in the world.
>>70095416
it's true that universal morality requires religion, but that doesn't mean god exists
what do we replace religion with? is there a way to enforce universal morality without evidence for god?
>>70095416
>Le unhappy and bitter atheist meme
meh, I blame postmodernism, relativism, the absence or lack of pursuit of ideals to live -and die- for, and not trying to reach glory and transcendence.
>>70095543
So atheists can't be emotional now... why do you think we exist, to bark true and false?
>>70095564
Good thing He does exist
>>70095592
They are a natural product therefrom. As society has become more militantly atheistic, it has developed those traits. Atheists tend to manifest those traits. Atheists tend to be arrogant douchebags
Pic related, but Hitchens has already been mentioned in this thread, but why not throw in Dawkins, Harris and Clementine Ford for good measure
For me, my morality is to follow Nature. Nature created me, and thus it is only right that I do what Nature created me to do. I can know what Nature created me to do by observing what my tendencies are. My tendencies are to rape and murder, lie and steal. This is what I tend to do, and I enjoy doing it very much. Therefore this is what Nature created me to do and intended me to do, and it is my morality do abide by the will of Nature, since Nature created me.
>>70089586
Go get 'em, tiger. Mom comes home from work in 3 hours, so better make it count.
>>70095660
Your grammar and spelling are an absolute mess. And I tend not to take seriously any comment containing the word consequentialist
>>70095543
Morality cannot be anything but axiomatic.
Your use of pure logic imply you are the type of deconstructionist that do not care about the basis in reality of his arguments.
You will never agree on any axiom.
This is pointless.
>>70095738
K E K
E E
K E K
>>70095685
They came from a higher source. Certainly the Christian ones. And the Islamic ones came from a demonic source.
But of course the atheist 'proof' remains, religion is wrong, therefore religion is wrong.
>>70095493
Why?
>>70095342
Are you saying that god decides where we are born and therefore which god we worship?
So let's say christians are right. Every kid that dies without being able to have a rational thought about changing its religion is going to hell on gods command?
>>70095853
Your condemnation of pure logic suggests you're on par with religitards in terms of your beliefs. Just because something makes your fee-fees tingle doesn't mean it's true.
>>70095722
Society as a whole is much more unhappy than it was. Atheism, or godlessness, may be only one factor in this, but it is a critical one. Man has lost his ability for self-reflection in the image of his Creator. Sure some atheists are self-reflective and not all in a negative way. But Nietzschean 'self-realization' inevitably leads to disappointment. There is no ultimate reward for the Nietzschean except his feeling of smug superiority. Perhaps that is why so many internet atheists come across as smug and supercilious (not, I hope you agree, positive traits)
>>70095996
Hitchens was a smug bitter nonentity, who dabbled in politics (disastrously) and essentially was SJW commie scum. He should have died earlier
>>70096017
Ok.
Using pure logic, tell me why self-preservation is good or desirable.
>>70095788
Why don't you understand what Atheism actually is, it's not difficult. Your prescription of behaviors and values onto people who lack a belief in a supernatural being is hasty. So you don't like the pseudo-intellectual public figures, and I'm with you on that.
>>70095813
>My tendencies are to rape and murder, lie and steal.
and your country's tendencies will be to lock you up since you are doing harm to others from the same kind as you, and the nature of humans is to stick together for ensuring survival
It is also in the nature of humans to be rational, and put aside their animalistic tendencies for the greater good.
Living in accordance to nature for the rational being (the human) doesnt automatically mean you need to succumb to earthly pleasures for your selfish goals(that in the end harms you as much as the ones you do harm to), but be able to abstain from them when they are not usefull for helping you achieve the continual survival of your offspring.
>>70092833
It's a lot more than that. It's an entirely different vision for the world. Not just about morality.
>>70091756
Because I'm not a faggot. Living in reality is subjective, yes but it is objective to the person who views it. You see that table there? It is concrete. It is there and I can touch it. I know it is real due to it being real. Religion in the other hand is nothing other than a bunch of outdated dogma to keep people in line. Yes I will admit it gives people more meaning and the whole moral aspect of it is good, but other than that there is really no need for religion and living your life based off of some archaic writings and scriptures is pathetic. Believing in religion falls under the gamblers theory. It's a 50/50 chance and the logical choice is to pursue religion because it is the option with 100% payout. That's being said there's nothing wrong with not acvepting religion so long as you don't overtly get in people's faces about it. Yes it's fun to pretend, but I only have 80 years on this planet(if I'm lucky) and I don't intend to live them with a constant thought in the back of my kind of guilt brought upon by something I can not even prove.
>>70096167
The behaviours of groups of people are not irrelevant. If it were, then /pol would talk about very little. It is a fact that atheism is a trojan horse for sjwdom. Atheists generally feel less satisfied in life. The rise of godlessness has not made society happier or more fulfilled, in fact the opposite. In evaluating the inherent worth of an ideology, its byproducts are certainly worth noting. And why is it a coincidence that all the public advocates for atheism are such assholes? Atheist leaders have been the most genocidal in history. All coincidence? I think not
>>70094659
>Yet most real scientific/cultural advances, let's say 99%, have been a product of the religious mind
Correction, MANY scientific advances were done during a period where being religious was the default, hundreds of years before the Origin of Species was even published. These advances weren't done because of Religion but in spite of it. Good example would be Issac Newton.
>>70096017
You aren't familiar with morality I presume. The whole conversation behind morality is what makes everyone's "feefees" happier. A better, more civilized society where you would want to live in. You do this everyday when you decide to participate in certain actions - you figure out what will stimulate some aspect of yourself and commit yourself to it. Your complete blindness to emotions is uncanny.
>>70096126
He hated PC leftists as soon as they showed up and his positions on politics were backed by reason and arguments.
In my eyes that's better than blindly following the political mainstream, even if your position might be wrong in hindsight
>>70095996
Christians and Muslims pray to the same God,
and God is one for them all, whoever is closer to the truth/the knowledge about natural laws (both groups are pretty close , and im talking about real christians, not secular westerners born into a christian family) doesnt matter. Stealing, infidelity, dishonesty, doing unnesesery harm, is seen as negative in both religions.
The one who decides where you are born is certainly not the people themselves. You couldve just as easily been born in an environment where you live with less than 1 USD/day, instead of Germany. Religion should remind you to be thankfull of things that are out of your control, but they have been given to you and are enough for you to give you the chance to fight for your survival.
That's what praying/meditating is about.
Fasting is about teaching your mind to control your lust/gluttony/greed. All religions are similar in their worship, and their stories. The differences are due to their geography, history, and even pure chance.
Great thread
>>70096209
You are correct, because I live in society, I am not able to live morally. But if I were a king or a sultan, I could. I could rape, murder, lie, and steal to my heart's content, and it would be very enjoyable, because Nature created me to enjoy those things.
As for the nature of humans being to stick together, that applies only to small groups of about a dozen, which was the size of the groups that we evolved in as primates. Outside of that, we evolved to fight and kill those who are different from us.
And I can either ensure the survival of my offspring by having only a few of them and devoting myself to them, or by raping as many women as possible and spreading my seed far and wide. Personally, the latter method seems like more fun to me, and the end result is the same. I can either have two offspring and take care of them, or have thousands and rape, kill, and eat all of them but two. The end result: two offspring.
>>70096454
How despite? Newton spent most of his time on theology rather than science, it is true. Perhaps he could have advanced science further. However the whole raison d'etre for his interest in science was to 'examine God's workings'. Darwin did not end the religious impulse in man. Darwin of course did not explain the origin of life itself. In any case, aspects of Darwinism are believed rather more credulously than any religion.
Even today some of the most eminent scientists and thinkers are religious, and the artwork which has sustained and nourished humanity is all religious in origin or influence. The religious mind produced Bach's Passions, Shakespeare's plays and Michelangelo's frescoes, whereas the atheist spirit produces atonal horrors, rap 'music' and Dead Cow In a Gallery. Spirituality is a core part of what it means to be human, without spiritual nourishment man is merely a beast
>>70096383
If you have to kiss the carpet for hours everyday, then it isn't worth the pay. You're thinking more of Pascal's wager, where the creators of the religion instill a punishment for not believing that is so severe, you might as well just believe in their nonsense. Also, groupthink and environmental/cultural pressures.
>>70096126
Where do you live cunt i'll drop you for smearing the name of that great intellectual.
>>70096518
He was a PC leftist at first, and his argument was pseudo intellectual and therefore more dangerous. At least he was superficially as against Islam as Christianity (although he became a lot more circumspect in addressing Islam later)
>>70096752
Brisbane. Come any time
>>70096752
Poncing pseudo intellectual, without substance, without ideas, poor writer, apologist and attack dog rather than a thinker of any note, politically naive, with a glass jaw, coward and waste of space
>>70089827
t. Achmed
>>70089586
why do they have to show him smoking a cigarette? Anyone who smokes a cigerrete purposely to look cool and edgy i.e a photoshoot, is a massively pretentious wannabe cool faggot.
Ideologies are cancer. Judaism, Islam, Christianity.
>>70096936
What makes you think that Hitchens wasn't a massively pretentious faggot wannabe?
>>70096995
>militant atheism
>>70096657
except it doesnt end with your kids, people fight for the survival of many generations after that
and this survival isnt just procreation (oh how easy would it be if it was), what is also needed for our survival, is learning the universe, its threats, what we can protect ourselves from and how, and this is why we invest in science and not just go apeshit.
and yes, if you were born centuries ago, as a king, you might have done all those things, but you are not doing all you can to ensuring survival, teaching your children basic principles will yield more results than just raping random women and getting yourself aids, and hope that they all turn smart enough and have the luck to not die off (not procreate)
But this is why people decided absolute monarchy wasnt the way to go, when deciding how to govern ourselves. Because the one given the role of a leader wouldnt be fit to do it, but succumb to the temptations of what his power allows him.
>>70089827
lol
>>70096685
again, you are making my argument for me, citing people born hundreds of years ago, and art commissioned by the church from talented artist, not religious artist with a "religious mind", these artist could've created secular works of art but fate had it so that they produced murals and paintings for Churches etc. I think it says a lot more that the overwhelming majority of scientist, engineers etc.today are Atheists.
>>70097022
What the king is tempted to do is what it is in his nature to do, and therefore it is moral for him to do it. He is tempted to murder and rape. He enjoys it very much while he is doing it and always wants to do it more. This is because nature implanted those desires in him and made them enjoyable to him. Therefore, how can it be wrong to do what nature makes us enjoy doing?
But in our society, we cannot do what nature intended us to do, and thus we cannot be truly moral. We must then ask the question, why is it moral to do what nature intended us to do? Isn't that itself arbitrary? Why is it any more right or wrong to do the opposite of what nature makes us want to do?
Any basis I can come up with for morality ends up being arbitrary. Follow nature or don't. Have offspring or don't. Value life or don't. Neither one is any more "moral" than the other. All there is is desire, and even following that is not any more moral that doing the opposite of what I desire.
However if behaving naturally is the moral thing to do, and the only way we can do it is by having the might of a king, then we can truly say that might makes right, and I think in the end, that is the only basis of morality there is. Whoever has the might determines the right.
In our society, it is the society itself, and the long arm of the law, that has the might, and so it determines what is right. Oh, but if I were a king!
>>70096632
>Stealing, infidelity, dishonesty, doing unnesesery harm, is seen as negative in both religions.
You're cherrypicking good parts of religions. Apostasy and heresy are also part of religions and will lead you straight to hell.
And I agree that religion is an important and interesting part of our life. But ignoring bad parts of religions because it's our history is a dangerous idea.
We have come to a stage in our development in which we can replicate the good parts of religion by logic and humanitarianism without adopting the bad parts of it. I think that is a worthy goal and would safe many people
>>70097361
moral = given the thing a label bad/good, of whether it is in accordance with the values we uphold
if you uphold 'living to nature' as a good moral value, then it is in accordance to nature for the human to use his rational mind to resist temptations which lead to objectively negative results
murder a fellow countryman/raping a woman-the daughter of a fellow countryman, will bring negative results, even if they dont show immediately(being imprisoned by the law), they can lead the father of the raped women, or the brothers of the murdered countryman, to do things out of anger to you/your offspring/your family or countrymen, which ultimately affects you and your goal of survival as an individual negatively.
So if you were acting rationally, you would avoid raping and murdering. But then we cant expect everybody to act rationally when given power and not succumb. It is in the nature of the human to not be able to see how negatively these things affect him. That's also what religions teach, that we cant atleast always expect good from other humans, because they might not know what you know about survival and morals.
You are valuing the raping and murdering based on the ammount of pleasure they are supposed to give you, not based on what objective use are they to you. Thats why you value, having the power of a king, being born into the life of a king, more than you value being born into what you are born as now. If the king doesnt procreate, and you do, and if he doesnt teach his children, or help survival in any way, but you do, your life is more valuable for the human species despite the rotten king having more pleasure in his life.
You dont get to decide the ammount of pleasure you have in your life, a higher power does, so its a waste of time to cry about what you cant control. You couldve been born as much worse than you are now. So be thankfull, you are not a spoiled king who doesnt ensure his genes survival,and are a normal being with the knowledge
and to add
sometimes even if we do all those things that are up to us, as individuals, to ensure survival, we might get dealt an unlucky hand, and have our children die from random causes, be infertile, or many other things that prevent the survival of our genes
Religions also teach how to view things so that you are content with that. Because not being content with what you are given is 'being in hell' as metaphorically said in the holy books.
And also even despite the knowledge that religion gives us about the natural laws, almost all of us wont always act according to that knowledge, we will waste time, do a bad thing once in a while, but what matters is that a major portion of what we do is according to the good morals it teaches us.
I want to recommend this book because I find it insightfull
Meditations by Marcus Aurelius
>>70092830
Stalin wasn't atheist dummy
I don't participate in these threads because most posters are morons who fail to see reason. That being said I like christianity and paganism, or anything European really.
Here are few basics you cannot deal with if you want to maintain internal consistency in your belief.
1.gods omniscience
Makes him the only responsible agent in the universe. God knew he created humans that would sin. He must've intended it. He then banished them for his own problems. Sent himself so he could sacrifice himself to himself for problems he created. Its nonsensical and shows the extent of thinking of the authors. Not to mention he doesn't act like an omniscient creature throughout the bible.
2. Bible
Trough careful analysis by scholars we see that it was edited, selected and added to. Which contradicts divine inspiration and shows very human political motives. You can claim god changed his mind, which by the way contradicts his scripture because it says he's unchanging. It also contradicts his omniscience because all knowing mind CANNOT change.
3.Now that bible is out of the way you cannot account for god's nature you become a diest. You don't know if souls exist you can't know because that's whole another worldview you have to justify. You only know there's a creator
4. Finally
You believe mind that has intentions or can act on things and is complex preceded simple 4 rules and energy.
Don't even try to go kalam on my ass
The plebs need it, fag. That much has been obvious since 300 fuckin' BC.
Cletus and Jamal, most of the population, needs that bullshit magical mysticism to get the actual grain of Neoplatonic philosophy that keeps them from shooting themselves in the head once their life goes downhill.
>>70099189
Very late so I'll be very short in response.
>1.gods omniscience
Depends how omniscience is understood. Between the two understandings of God in Christianity - theistic personalism and classical theism - omniscience and other elements are understood very differently.
This should be a decent run through for you on that specific topic. It specifically argues for a Classical Theist view.
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/02/dawkins-on-omnipotence-and-omniscience.html
>Trough careful analysis by scholars we see that it was edited, selected and added to.
And pretty much everyone but Evangelicals recognize this. The bible's canon is authoritative because it was decided upon by the church's own authority (this is not to say there was a very long process of theological, textual, and historic debate though).
While there is that Protestant trend of grasping the Bible much like the Qur'an, Apostolic Christianity teaches the various histories, structure, and genres of the texts involved. Them as inspired does not change given their own limits as authors.
>Now that bible is out of the way you cannot account for god's nature you become a diest.
Deism is only asserted by one view of God. Classical Theism, which was the mainstream view of God academically until the modern period and still the authoritative view of God by the apostolic churches, supports divine conservation. With that view, deism is not coherent.
>You believe mind...
Free will is a complex topic that I won't go into. However, I will say that the mind-body substance dualism came from Descartes and carried on into the Enlightenment.
>Kalam
Not at all. Kalam is unique in that it tries to argue for creation temporally (a "before the big bang"). The majority of the cosmological arguments are about ontological causation though. Divine conservation.
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/07/so-you-think-you-understand.html
I'm out and heading to bed though.
Night.
>>70096810
where in brisbane cunt. 4103 here i'll fucking deck you
>>70089586
Religion is a couple guys who probably lied to get people to stop raping and fucking their children.
It's everyone else who were degenerates, hell even a bunch of the higher ups in said religions still rape and fuck their children.
Whoever created the first religion with all the "don't kill people, don't fuck animals, don't steal from people" rules was probably a pretty smart dude.
>>70089827
Fuck up Sweden
>>70095453
>It seems like you're trying to make the case that having good morals (usually people mean Christian morals when they say this btw) is a net benefit for society,
No.
Modern secular morals have little relation to Christian morals. The typical attempt to reframe the answer and to assert ownership of morality is so fucking dull.
There's no way you could read this into my answer, which means you needed to bend over backwards to fit your canned response into it.
>What you're failing to convince me of is the idea that I as an individual should accept morals that procure the future of my family or nation or species above morals that seek to simply satisfy my lust for power, sex, blood, etc.
And indeed many societies don't share modern secular values. Christian societies in Africa are just as barbaric as their dindu neighbours. Christians in the Phillippines and South America don't share what you think are Christian values either. Because you've been raised by the west and by cultural norms that were formed in the enlightenment, that specifically rejected the stale teachings of the church.
>There is ultimately no way to argue that the preference of life is logically superior to the preference of death.
This is just a fucking nonstarter. All the death seeking retards are evolutionary dead ends. They're bred out of existence over time and only reappear as perverted twigs.
It also points out the Christian apologists recurring assertion that they're only a normal citizen and not a blood thirsty rapist serial killer because they believe in a goatherder god. And then they say atheists are the ones who lack morality.
