Why aren't there any laws that make university less expensive for useful degrees such as business, engineering, science medicine etc but makes useless degrees such as gender studies, graphic design, philosophy etc more expensive? Wouldn't this stimulate the economy by incentivising people to do degrees that would help the economy?
Are there any countries that do this already?
Pic not really related
>>70048649
That would be sexist.
>>70048769
I'm sure the left would say that but if you simply based each degree on the amount of demand for those jobs, the salaries of those jobs, etc you couldn't claim discrimination on any degree because you'd be looking at it purely from a financial perspective.
Not that that would help.
>>70048649
I hope you realize that university as an educational system predates degrees as workforce credentials and was never designed for it.
You want to subsidize 'useful' degrees go ahead. But don't expect an institution with a thousand year tradition in philosophy, history, and arts to start charging more for those fields just because you say so.
Besides, the lack of employment prospects with those degrees is already disincentive. Reduced earning upon completion of degree effectively makes it more expensive, and does so without top-down intervention by the state upon market forces.
I have a better idea. We establish separate vocational schools for undergraduate employment credentials and eject all of those fields out of the university system.
Then we let academics continue to be academics without interference.
>>70049207
>you'd be looking at it purely from a financial perspective
PATRIARCHY!
Degrees that women want don't pay much because of a conspiracy against women! The whole world could be working differently and then women would have their way!
>>70049248
The idea would be to mandate price cuts for useful ones resulting in money hungry jews raising the prices of the shit ones
>>70049847
That or just decrease subsidies for the shit ones
>>70049248
>You want to subsidize 'useful' degrees go ahead. But don't expect an institution with a thousand year tradition in philosophy, history, and arts to start charging more for those fields just because you say so.
But surely those institutions are so prestigious that anybody who gets a philosophy degree from them would probably be more or less destined for success anyway, so that ought to be incentivised as well. I wouldn't base it purely on the subject matter, just the potential for those graduates to contribute to society and the economy.
>Besides, the lack of employment prospects with those degrees is already disincentive.
Well it's clearly not enough. Young people really don't give a fuck about job prospects. If their parents had to choose between an expensive gender studies degree and a significantly cheaper economics degree then perhaps we'd see more kids moving towards the latter.
>>70049248
>I have a better idea. We establish separate vocational schools for undergraduate employment credentials and eject all of those fields out of the university system.
I like that idea though.
>>70048649
They should just get rid of all needs based aid, and only offer merit based scholarships.
>>70049918
>the potential for those graduates to contribute to society and the economy.
The contributions of these kinds of fields to our society aren't immediate and apparent, but they are massive.
The very fields which we regard as 'useful'. Science, medicine, business, politics... they don't even exist if not for developments in arts and philosophy.
Modern scientific method, the industrial revolution, entire fields like economics and psychology... they don't happen without the 18th century enlightenment.
Likewise, shit like deep learning in computer science, quantum theory, and relativity all coincide (and are directly complementary) to arts movements like modernism, post modernism, post structuralism.
People seem to think that arts and sciences have some kind of hard, absolute delineation. It simply isn't true.
You want to talk about intellectual decline? Men that worked on the atomic bomb read shit like the Bhagavad Gita and Allen Ginsberg. STEM field researchers today watch fucking superhero movies.
>>70048649
no need
free market will take care of it eventually
>>70051367
no.
>>70051367
Yes but is culture really being driven by people doing arts and philosophy at university? I really doubt that.
>>70048649
>philosophy
>useless
you're officially retarded, how does it feel?
>>70051367
Daily reminder that the steam engine was invented before thermodynamics.
>>70052076
as a college degree its pretty useless unless you are tenured professor or successful writer.
as a subject it should be a part of everyone personal development to read and digest philosophy.
>>70052372
>>70052076
If it wasn't completely swamped by jews and leftists and the important parts were actually taught I'd agree with you
As it stands the only stuff that is taught is marxist drivel
>>70048649
Australia does this, with the proviso you get a job in your field. I did science at uni and now work as a meteorologist, and I can claim 50% of my HECS back on tax. Essentially my degree was half price.
We do it like that. Useless bullshit like psychology and sociology(thank fuck we haven't got shit like gender studies here) has very few govt-funded spots,and the price of the education in these fields is astronomical. Same with IT and lawyers for the moment,we are way oversaturated in those fields. Engineering got a nice bump in funding,a huge amount of govt-payed spots,and the paid education is less cheaper.
>>70052983
Oh cool, I didn't know HECS worked like that. That's pretty good.
I think that the degrees that actually stimulate the economy ,aside steam fields , are those that boost entrepreneurship ... i mean ... if you whant to boost/stimulate the economy you should create needs to make news business.
>>70051367
I must agree with this. As STEM student I'm often astounded by the overall prejudice my colleagues have with other areas, specially when they make full use of them, be it watching TV or simply buying a product they saw on a commercial.
Also, how does one even define "contribution to society"? What makes exact science any more useful than marketing or art?
Most people live for art, and don't even realize it. You don't go to work to "contribute to society", specially when society aren't people you necessarily care about, you work to get money at the end of the month and you spend that money on things that please you. Well, those things that please you are art.
>>70053891
Except people who study art at universities don't go on to become actors and film directors, they become Starbucks baristas.
>>70054017
The failure of the student does not invalidate the area of work. Besides that's anecdotal evidence. Even if some become baristas, others do become actors and directors.
>>70053222
It's only for in demand fields. It might be hard to find a course that does this these days because the country is broke.
>>70053891
The STEM prejudice is born from the fact that everyone treats STEM like shit. Being an engineer isn't regarded as something great,generally speaking "back-end" jobs aren't well-regarded. People are more likely to praise a new director,who made a cool movie(which,let's be honest,wasn't that important at the end of the day),but will never know the names of the people who designed the systems they take for granted,who maintain the powerlines and so on.
t. STEM myself
>>70054369
You can directly assess the amount a given degree from a given university will contribute to the economy. And I imagine that if you figured it out, you would find people with finance degrees would on average earn more than people with arts degrees, therefore contributing more to the economy. I don't suggest that it's just based on stuff that I personally see as useless, either. If aerospace degrees aren't resulting in as many jobs, then that should be made less appealing to prospective students too just as an arts degree should be.
I imagine that you would find the vast majority of people doing those sorts of degrees do not become actors and directors.
>>70048649
The free market should be taking care of this. But for some reason we have tons of people taking out loans for useless degrees, driving up the price of something they can't even pay for. You would think they'd stop giving out those loans when no one could pay them, so what gives?
>>70054494
Not being given mass popularity is quite different from being treated like shit. The thing about popularity is that it's a side effect, everyone is exposed to media and thus media people are well known to everyone. It's not people hatred towards STEM fields that makes them less aware of them, but rather their indifference to them.
Now, remember you are also "everyone". How many famous marketers do you know? Famous veterinarians? Even doctors and lawyers aren't as well known to the majority as media workers. I think that the stem prejudice comes from the same reasoning as OP's, the idea that exact sciences are naturally better than all because they are "more useful".
>>70054992
People don't live for others. You can't simply work everything towards the society without severely decreasing the life quality of all.
If people manage to pay for their degrees and the university is willing to give them, so be it. It's up to the student to then find use for it.
>>70055234
Well,since you don't realise what usefullness is,here's a fun game for you to play. Write down all the degrees that you know of. And cross out every one that can be completely eliminated with no far-reaching consequences to civilization. You'll see what OP means then.
Also,famous doctors are well known. Famous businessmen too.
>>70051367
>>70053891
I have to agree with these guys for once.
Natural philosophers back in the day were often artists as well, or polymaths even. I study illustration and I'm hoping to get into scientific illustration but I see the same kind of prejudice at my school too. Lots of shit talking about science even from the teachers or about other fields of art or design.
Even my friends in STEM fields. I love science but people I know in engineering, medicine and biology etc, generally lack the creative thinking and imagination that the scientists of yesterday had.
As for graphic design right now there is actually a demand for them but EVERYONE is going into even they don't talent. So it pays like crap.
>>70055530
>If people manage to pay for their degrees and the university is willing to give them, so be it. It's up to the student to then find use for it.
I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is those same students expecting that the government should pay increasing amounts of money for their education which probably won't contribute to the government much at all.
>>70055942
Provide me your list, I was able to cross none.
>>70056133
I don't think STEM fields nowadays don't have creativity, much to the contrary, we see the creativity every day with new inventions and researches. People use creativity in different ways according to their areas of interest. On regards to art, knowledge branches have become more specified and thus education had to become more pragmatic.
As for being paid like crap, you can still make money if you show that you're more skilled than the others. Hopefully at least.
>>70056302
It's up for the government to charge them back for what they asked. If the State thinks they won't be able to pay, then it indeed shouldn't lease money to them.
>>70055942
Aleksandr Dugin's Sociology is well known and well liked by the powers that be.
>>70057212
Thats true. Didn't think about that. I'm sure there are many that do contribute in that sense.
>>70057212
Art History(anything to do with art,really)
Marketing
Music
Plant Science
Theatre Arts
I could go on all day. I'm not saying these degrees should be outlawed or something,I'm just saying if suddenly people in these fields dissapeared,human society wouldn't crumble.
And by the way,you seem to be hammering on and on about creativity. Creativity is necessary in research fields,you should understand the difference between a run-of-the-mill engineer who needs to design basic machinery and a researcher working on a completely new way to utilize machinery.
Everything seems so easy and beneath you, until you actually try to do it yourself
>>70055942
>Write down all the degrees that you know of. And cross out every one that can be completely eliminated with no far-reaching consequences to civilization.
I don't think you can cross out much of anything, though some faculties might possibly be re-absorbed into their parent groups. But that would be counter productive -- they split off as separate fields specifically because they didn't fit in existing ones.
>>70058036
I did graphic design for two years at university, decided it was fucking useless, wasn't learning anything. It was easy as fuck too. I was getting great grades and putting in no effort. I dropped out of that and now I'm doing economics and it's actually much more difficult, and I'm glad that that is the case. So that's rubbish, in my experience.
>>70057925
>Plant Science
So no modern crop yields or agriculture management? Starve everyone?
>>70048649
>philosophy
>useless
philosophy is the highest study. Its the study of proper thought.
>protip
experimental physicist = scientist
theoretical physicist = philosopher
>>70058576
see >>70057925
There are whole groups that aren't particularly useful. And I say useful because I believe that looking at the state of the societies we live in and the state of the overall development we have the luxury to be divulging scientific resources for lesser sciences isn't quite here yet.
>>70058800
Yeah,that one was my bad,seeing as how agriculture and plant sciences were two different degrees I thought that was a degree focused on some bullshit like figuring out the way plants evolve and shit,but googling a bit more proved me wrong. My bad,we have these two subjects combined here.
>>70048649
>why is "X" fucked up in [insert Western, predominantly Caucasian, nation here]?
Because JEWS, Anon... that's why!
>pic REALLY RELATED
>>70058934
>philosophy is the highest study. Its the study of proper thought.
If I had my way, there would be a mandatory highschool course called 'informal logic and theory of knowledge'
You'd be require to pass this course in order receive a high school diploma, and it would be a prerequisite for voting. A full half of the standardized test would be skill-based and involve real-world application of logic skills.
Either you're capable of reason like a human being, or you're a fucking animal.
>>70059584
I'm ok with this, canadabro.
>>70048649
1/4
>>70060271
2/4
>>70060307
3/4
>>70060353
4/4
>>70059010
How exactly does one determine what is an essential science, and what is not? How do you know what will lead to 'useful' discoveries before the discoveries happen?
This sounds a lot like your soviet era, where the party though computer sciences were not 'useful' and so ignored them, leading to a severe gap in information technology by the mid 80s.
The focus on the 'material conditions of existence' is pure quotable Marxism too. While I think that's an admirable goal as far as class struggle and wealth disparity, top down statist bureaucracy is a shitty way to steer the direction of academia.
The whole point of a university is that the people there are free to investigate what they wish, without interference or suppression of the state.
It took us centuries to get to the point that thinkers could say what they want without fear of the Church or the gestapo or the KGB. And you want to go back?
There's a wealthy family in my city that donates ~ million dollars each year towards STEM students' tuition. It keeps costs down enough to make a chemical engineering degree cost as much as a sociology degree. (In my city it would be 13k vs 6k annual tuition)
>>70060581
>soviets thought computer tech wasn't important.
You clearly know very little,also,some of the best IT is from my country,hell,Google was created by a russian jew.
Stop trying to include Marxist jewery into this,I hate it as much as the other guy,all I'm saying is that while the human civilization faces a resource shortage in about 30-40 years and a huge pollution problem with no discernable end in sight it seems petty and stupid to discuss shit like bumping quotas for liberal arts.
>It took us centuries to get to the point that thinkers could say what they want without fear of the Church or the gestapo or the KGB. And you want to go back?
Nice strawman there. Where,pray tell,I ever said that the educational process should be controlled by any outside entity? All I said that some of the degrees taught nowadays are quite worthless in terms of societal contribution,so why should said societies provide for them this much?
>>70048649
>going to the state run cult
>>70061293
>All I said that some of the degrees taught nowadays are quite worthless
Who decides what is worthless and what is not? You? If not you, then who?
Sounds to me like you're talking about the state. And this would be, by definition, state interference in academia.
http://clarionproject.org/analysis/mb-front-succeeds-partnering-us-universities
>>70061876
I provided the definition for that in my posts above. If you can't be bothered to read them,well,how's that my fault.
What would you say to a program where private investors could act as sugar daddies to students. The market would be wide open, just like consumer credit, but certain degrees and candidates could demand much better deals than others.
It could be something like this:
Got a 3.5GPA, going to Stanford, and majoring in biomechanical engineering? You get a full ride, and your payback is 10% of your first 5 years salary.
Got a 2.7GPA, going to Indiana State, and majoring in art history? You get 50%, and your payback is 15% of your first 20 years salary.
Why not let the markets decide?
>>70062110
Your definition is so vague as to be meaningless. Even if interpreted literally, you couldn't eliminate any field of knowledge without huge impacts on the entire planet.
>>70062745
>What would you say to a program where private investors could act as sugar daddies to students.
We already do that. They're called scholarships.
>>70048649
>laws that make university less expensive
kill yourself retard
>>70062919
So,am I to believe that in your opinion if all modern artists vanished,society would be in dissaray? Or say,professionally trained musicians are gone now,would the factories stop running? Would the nuclear power stations experience a meltdown the second we don't have somebody who spent his entire life doing nothing but playing piano?
>>70063145
But they're not bid out to the capital markets.
My father was an ObGyn that died in his 50s. My mom established a scholarship that pays $10K each year to a candidate who wants to go into health care, specifically family care. I'm on the decision committee. I see a ton of great students that I'd be happy to make a "ten for ten (10% for 10 years)" loan to because I know they're good for it. But I don't have the assets, and we don't have a way in contract law to make this happen. Everyone would scream "indentured slavery!". But if you were a student wouldn't you jump at the chance?
>>70048649
>major in Classics with a focus on Greek epic
>make nearly six figures fresh out of school
Feels good to be in the elite :)
>>70063296
I'm not really in favour of that, but if we're going to have the government pay for any education it would be better to have it pay for degrees that benefit society.
>>70063404
>professionally trained
>modern
Now you're adding qualifiers and specifying people to backpedal. Before, you were talking about the elimination of entire schools of thought.... the wholesale destruction of the legacy of mankind.
>>70048649
based retardbro do you not understand how academia works
>>70063896
You mongoloid.
>I could go on all day. I'm not saying these degrees should be outlawed or something,I'm just saying if suddenly people in these fields dissapeared,human society wouldn't crumble.
>>70057925
Here's a quote directly from one of my posts. Hell,profesionally trained is fucking expected when you STUDY IT IN A UNIVERSITY. You can't come out of it having a Bachelors or Masters in Music and claim you're not a trained specialist.
You seem to be obsessed with this quote-on-quote destruction of the legacy of mankind. Oh,how big those words are. The legacy would still be there if we severely cut spending for music degrees or shut down 90% of unis focused on that(we have specialised universities,for your reference,so you don't have an aneurysm when you hear about shutting down universities). I'm not talking about death squads and shit,which I assume you have already imagined.
>>70063619
>But if you were a student wouldn't you jump at the chance?
*shrug* I'm Canadian. A much higher percentage of my post secondary education is subsidized than yours. Something like 50% in my province, though I know in Quebec it's as high as 80%.
This combined with basic scholarships and commuting from home instead of living in a dorm plus reasonable interest govt student loans covered me.
I did fine.
I think the hugest cost of post secondary education is this bizarre concept that we need to undergraduates to group together on massive expensive campuses with room and board and physical libraries and 500 person lecture halls.
What kind of sense does that make? It's not like any of these kids are there to learn. They're there to jump through some hoops, take more or less the same courses as the guy next to him, and get a slip of paper that lets him not be poor.
Take undergraduate schools, specialize them, decentralize them, spread them out, digitize libraries, eliminate dormitories, put them in every town.
You can keep the boarded ivory towers of learning for graduate schools... the kids don't need em.
Undergraduate study is the new high school. Time to start treating it as such.
>>70065227
Quebec you don't count in the post-secondary expenses debate. Your lefties protested their tuition expenses when they were already the cheapest liberal arts college in the country. GTFO
>>70064566
>The legacy would still be there if we severely cut spending for music degrees or shut down 90% of unis focused on that
What you don't seem to understand is that philosophy and the academic arts are already some of the cheapest fields of study on campus.
Literally, all they need is a professor, a library, and a classroom. That's fucking it.
So long as you have students to fill the schedule, there is nothing cheaper. What are you going to cut?
>shut down schools focused on that
By what authority would you 'shut-down' a school with paying students?
>>70065786
I'm not in Quebec, I'm in BC. Most of Canada is 50% covered. Quebec is like 80%.
>>70065227
Yes, you have a point. Education is an industry, and schools are there to make a "profit".
But I'm looking at a way to make education competitive and yet reflect the market demands. While the ideals of education are laudable, they are terribly inefficient with capital. The government's involvement in the education market has created a bubble in the student loan market that has handed pricing power to the universities and driven the cost of education through the roof (in the US). I'm just proposing an alternative market for education funding that uses capitalism and free markets (and risk) into the equation to provide more efficient funding for students that are likely to succeed financially.
Every time I watch Shark Tank on TV I'm reminded how terribly inefficient education funding is in the US.
>>70066018
>Literally, all they need is a professor, a library, and a classroom. That's fucking it.
And yet the receive the same funding as STEM field universities.
>paying students
Ah,here's the problem. I thought you have government subsidized universities like us. If we're talking about privately owned payed nests of useless bullshit then sure,nothing wrong with them. I'm talking about govt budget money being spent to teach people how to play the flute when the industry is stagnating and a new power source akin to oil should be found tout-fucking-suite.
>>70048649
>gender studies, graphic design, philosophy etc more expensive?
practically the cheapest course a university could offer. no labs, no specialist needed, just a bunch of paperbacks off of amazon and a grad student
>>70066411
>STEM field universities.
What the fuck are you talking about? They're different faculties on the SAME UNIVERSITY CAMPUS.
In the situations where the *are* specialized schools, they're either grad schools or charge much MUCH more if they have higher costs.
Specialized Liberal Arts colleges, on the other hand, are some of the cheapest places to get a degree.
>paying students
Ah,here's the problem. I thought you have government subsidized universities like us.
It's both. Government covers part, student pay part.
