So can anyone on /pol/ actually defend Trump's awful tariff proposals?
All that's gonna do is drastically drive up the cost of every product in the United States. Completely retarded idea.
>>70026062
So, can you actually give me good reasons as to why they wouldn't work that aren't solely based off your opinions or the opinions of others?
The US will reindustrialize. Jobs are more important than inter-national comparative advantage.
Trumpcucks are basically socialist tier when it comes to economics.
Economically illiterate hicks.
>>70026062
So can anyone on /pol/ actually defend X's y z proposals?
All that's gonna do is drastically A the B of every C in the United States. Completely retarded idea.
>this is an argument
>>70026432
>why they wouldn't work
Of course they'll work. They'll work to drive up the cost of items once manufactured overseas or in Mexico. Us working class Americans will take the fall.
>>70026901
>us working class Americans will take the fall
sounds like an opinion to me
>high tarrif on chink goods
>some bright guys get the idea that maybe we should make stuff in the us instead because no tarrifs
>new manufacturing jobs in america
>everything now has made in america stickers on it
>????
>america made great again
I wonder who could be behind this thread?
>>70026062
Trumpfags don't realize that we already have thousands of tariffs in place and that the real barriers to manufacturing here are EPA regulations and rising energy costs
>>70026062
>company moves to Mexico
>place 45% tariff on them
>cost of their products goes up 45%
>buy from a different company instead
Is it that fucking hard to understand?
You act like if Oreo gets a tariff on them then your McDouble will go up $17
>>70027356
>being this dumb that he doesnt realize trump wants to reduce epa regulations
>>70026901
Yah thats going to suck for the upper classes but average working joe will benefit because they will have more money to spend.
>>70026062
>my cheap Chinese plastic toys are going to cost $1.30 instead of $.99 :-(
>>70027356
Trumpfags do realize this... That's how we know tariffs actually work.
O shit op a Cyclops with two mouths.
>>70027212
that's not at all what would happen.
>>70027363
buy from where? We don't make anything in America anymore. Our workers don't have the skills to make anything anymore. Mexico wouldn't be hurt, they'd just sell those goods to someone else.
http://www.schiffradio.com/can-trump-make-america-great-again-ep-151/
>>70027356
>EPA regulations
IIRC Trump plans on eliminating it completely?
>rising energy costs
I heard him speak about clean coal quite a bit. Dunno if that would actually help that though...
>Against monopolies
>Supports tariffs
Trump policies are the same that made Russians drive the same Ladas for 50 years.
>>70026062
>All that's gonna do is drastically drive up the cost of every product in the United States.
That's true, and it's something usually commies and big unions want.
Reagan saved Harley by putting a 45% tariff on Japanese motorcycles.
>>70026062
You do realize it's paired with drastic tax reductions for businesses? They'll be forced to produce at home at a reasonable price and not consider outsourcing/shipping home from overseas.
It'll work in our favor in the long-run.
>>70027356
>trump wants to keep us jobs in, threaten them with tariffs
>trump wants to eliminate epa and regulations
>trump wants to go with nuclear energy, bring coal back, drill into alaska with their yuge reserves of oil, take oil from isis, etc
Yet cuckmissiles and berniefags fail to understand this concept
>>70027714
The EPA is probably the first thing on the chopping block, yes.
>>70027677
>buy from where? We don't make anything in America anymore.
Gee, it's almost like the entire fucking point to all of this is to bring jobs back to America and make shit here or something!
>Mexico wouldn't be hurt, they'd just sell those goods to someone else.
So we can't afford to not trade with Mexico but they can? Nigga, is you serious?
>>70027677
>we don't have the skills to make anything anymore
>Retarded third world shit skins do
What are we supposed to do just sit here waving our dicks around.
You can not have an economy without production. America is losing production oversea's. Therefor we must incentivize companies to return to America.
The point is to make things in America again dumb faggot.
I don't care if Mexico is hurt or not. And no, you can't just ignore the American market as if it doesn't exist. If you do that your company will be losing out on a lot of easy money when someone does the same thing in America.
>>70027647
>30% price increase
>not a problem
You'll understand when you're older and have to buy things more expensive than Call of Duty
lolbertarians are the plague of /pol
The only reason the US embraced international free trade is for the greater geopolitical game. Comparative advantage is pointless in the postindustrial age. The main benefit is that sometimes it forces more competition when there were none before, but that's fixable in other ways. The west can manufacture absolutely anything very cheaply. Joblessness and social issues is what holds the west back.
>>70027677
>We don't make anything in America anymore.
That's the point, retard.
>>70027716
Not at all. How exactly do tariffs support monopolies. In fact it does the opposite. Now monopolies will have to compete on the same level as other Americans and the buy in to become a large company will be less difficult. This means more competition which is a monopolies worst nightmare.
>>70027677
>We don't make anything in America anymore. Our workers don't have the skills to make anything anymore.
Surely you jest. You might have to look outside of Wal-Mart but there is a large and growing market for goods that are manufactured domestically. Plenty of people are willing to pay more for products that were made in this country.
Consumers already want it. Give the producers a little push and incentive and our manufacturing sector will explode.
>>70026763
Mercantilism is what we need m8, global free-trade doesn't work when you're trading with nations that do not have the same type of market as you.
Like if we had no child labor laws or minimum wage, I'm sure our economy would be a lot more competitive, but the cost of that is too great.
>>70027677
You do realize there are different brands for every product, right? Trump's plans all work together like a nice little package. Give yuuge tax breaks to businesses so that smaller companies have a chance to expand, so that there isn't a monopoly on everything.
Mexico wouldn't be selling to anyone, its the company that sells to who they can, and the U.S. is one of the biggest importers.
>>70026062
They're very good ways to create trade wars.
>USA imposes 35% tariff on Chinese imports
>China imposes 40% tariff on imports from the USA
This will go on and on until it gets up to 100%, effectively stopping trade in both countries. I'm pretty sure China wouldn't be the only one either.
Tariffs that high could effectively start another global recession or even a global depression.
I'm also pretty sure he can be impeached for being in contravention of NAFTA. There are strict limits on tariffs right now, and if he exceeds those limits, he's effectively breaking international, civil law.
>>70027916
Even Berniefags understand free trade is a bad thing.
>>70026062
>HURR DURR TRUMPS POLICIES ARE DUM
>can't even bring up specifics or make a convincing argument
>>70027714
>clean coal
So this is what it feels like to be triggered.
>>70028535
Global or Internationl Free-Trade is a bad thing, an open local economy is not, this is a distinction however that's confusing to cuckservatives. They think telling the WTO to fuck off, is basically Stalinism.
>>70026901
>retard detected
The idea is to relocate manufacturing to the US. Sure, goods will be more expensive, at first. However, there will be more jobs, and price won't be an issue after some time. If the price of goods go up by 200%, and the average income goes up by 1000%, I don't see an issue.
>>70028285
>Joblessness and social issues.
Do you mean communism leaf? How many times do we have to go over this. Niggers are horrible people and your special lala land where nobody needs a job doesn't exist.
>>70026901
>Us working class Americans
Working class Americans don't buy 100 tvs, 100 toasters, 100 ovens. A working class American paying 25 instead of 18 for a toaster is not going to hurt them. They'll have more valuable wages because their labor is now higher in demand.
Less outsourcing means less growth at the top. They have to offer more for the now less available labor or not have access to the American market.
>>70026062
so then we buy products made in the USA.
and if we dont make those products here, it will be a prime time to start and make a few jobs
ez pz
>>70028736
We all know it's a terrible thing, it fucked us hard up here too. The problem is, if he imposes tariffs on Mexico or Canada, he's breaking international, civil laws.
The repercussions could be minimal or he could be impeached. Considering the majority of congress doesn't support Trump, there's a very high likelihood that he would be impeached.
>>70028508
China treats their people like dog shit, who fucking cares about them? Maybe if the Chinese people introduced a little bit of freedom to their way of life and demand better wages and produced their own goods and services they'd be better off. Global economic interdependence is a sure way towards global catastrophe.
>>70026062
>So can anyone on /pol/ actually defend Trump's awful tariff proposals?
Muh outdated and dead american school
>>70026062
No tariffs if countries we trade with remove theirs.
>>70028922
He's not imposing tariffs retard, he's incentivizing businesses to produce and hire locally. NAFTA is a crock of shit that should be done away with anyway.
>>70028846
If they choose to opt out of the American market we're going to see a yuuge boom in industry here.
They'll be 30 year old million airs around every corner.
>>70028949
Exactly. They don't give a fuck, they could impose any and all tariffs they want if the USA does the same.
Anything the USA needs from China, mostly electronics and rare Earth metals, would skyrocket in price.
Rare Earth metals cannot really be mined in the USA effectively. Say goodbye to your high-tech sector.
>>70028922
Most likely what'll happen is he'll bump heads with Congress, hurting them politically and they'll get slaughtered in re-elections, or he becomes a lame-duck.
>>70028821
Furthermore, it's liberal policies that put us here to begin with. If not for deals like NAFTA, there wouldn't be manufacturing jobs landing in Mexico. Sure, it will take more time, but the alternative is supporting sweatshops overseas. Countries that a allow that sort of game shouldn't be allowed to participate in free market trade. It's funny how liberals advocate vehemently against sweatshops yet their policies only enable them.
>>70028427
that's great if companies are happy being relegated entirely to the domestic market. But most companies, especially larger companies, need to do business globally.
Consider this: Trump wants Apple to make all their PCs in America. Except all of the components, the screens, the RAM, processors, etc, are all made in Asia. Not a single factory in America produces those things. If, say, RAM chips are only made in Korea, and there's a 40% import duty on all the parts, then anything Apple makes will need to be 40% more expensive at least, excluding higher labor costs and higher taxes. Maybe they can sell to people in the US, since all foreign made competing products would be hit with the tax, but their products would no longer be competitive internationally vs. Samsung who won't have to pay those tariffs. And it's not like the RAM factories would come back to America. It wouldn't be cost effective, and there's no workers trained in electronic manufacturing left so even if they wanted to they couldn't.
It would take decades and decades to undo the devastation done to the US manufacturing sector. Passing a terriff would only increase the damage
>>70028922
NAFTA is a piece of shit. Canada, the great thing about being a sovereign nation is we can do anything we want to.
I fucking dare you Canadians to start shit over this. I fucking dare you.
>>70028397
Putting rocks on Usain Bolt's boots isn't going to make the others any faster.
American companies will be content with mediocre service due to a lack of exposure to actual competition. In the end the little profits you get will be consumed by the increased costs of manufacture for those companies that buy their raw materials abroad and transform them in the USA, making your exports less competitive.
There's absolutely no examples of autarchy ever working better than globalized markets.
>>70028896
and i wouldnt call it a proposal as if its set in stone that he will do it first chance he gets
stop being a drama queen like the people that faint over the NATO and nuclear comments. they are secondary options to handle problems, not the primary fix he wants to implement
>>70029272
>free trade
>liberal policy
>>70029272
KONY 2012
O
N
Y
2
0
1
2
>>70029339
We wouldn't, it actually might be good for us too, because Americans are stealing a lot of our good paying jobs in the manufacturing sector.
>>70027677
>says thats not what would happen
>provides no evidence besides an assertion that it wont happen
When people see that there is money to be made by manufacturing stuff in the US they will begin making stuff in the US. That's capitalism.
>>70029195
Most rare earth metals come from Africa. We will be fine. Hey maybe this will help Africa become less of a shit hole.
Probably not though, they're still niggers.
>>70029506
Not if the only reason is because of a tariff! A tariff could be undone at any time. Who would invest in manufacturing capital to avoid paying a tariff, when all they need to do is bribe the government to get rid of the tariff a few years down the line (like companies have been doing)?
>>70029195
>Anything the USA needs from China, mostly electronics and rare Earth metals, would skyrocket in price.
Which is why we have to break our deal with the devil and start producing locally again... The reason China has so much power is because we rely on them for cheap labor because they can pay their people 3 cents a day to slave away in an Apple factory to produce shitty phones that become obsolete in 2 years. Did you know China owns 90% of REM in Australia? This is what happens when nationalism is replaced with globalism. China is literally holding the world hostage with their shitty cheap electronics because we're a decadent corrupt society.
>>70029389
Come on dude, NAFTA is a Clinton policy, and "free trade" in that context is a misnomer at best.
>>70029288
We also have a huge market so it's not in China's favor to not play ball with us. Stop thinking about losing your precious iphone.
>>70026062
>Every product in the US
No, just manufactured goods. And saying that things costing a little less is worth millions of jobs being lost is ludicrous, only a fool or a globalist would actually believe that.
Scratch that, globalists don't believe, they just know what's best for them is to keep labor cheap.
>>70029272
>sweatshops
You do realize that without sweatshops, they'd be working 16 hours a day everyday on a little something called agriculture, right?
Sweatshops sound like shit to us because we have a million different alternatives, but to them its either work in a factory and get paid relatively decent money or work in a field and make only enough money to eat (or not make any money at all)
>>70029656
>could be undone at any time
That's why they have to be put in place by a charismatic leader that inspires confidence and puts its nation first.
MAKE. AMERICA. GREAT. AGAIN.
and then plz annex us
>>70029461
What does the leader of the Lord's Resistance Army have to do with free trade?
>>70029843
then what happens in four or eight years, when we're back to establishment shills running the show? Come on, man, don't be obtuse.
>>70029828
Are you fucking stupid? I almost feel like "I can't even" and posting Carl the cuck here. It doesn't matter what "they" are doing. What matters is whether or not we participate in it. Especially if doing so hurts our citizens and marginally improves the lives of others.
Didnt China just enact a 40% tariff on EU steel?
Crazy eh...
>>70029660
No, it's free trade alright. Mexico just doesn't have the minimum wage or the business restrictions that the USA faces.
>>70029955
Trump has God-emperor worthy children. There will be a Trump dynasty!
>>70029288
Are you retarded? First nobody said Apple needs to do shit. They can still have factories in China but they're going to have to pay large tariffs. Nobody said Chinese companies can't produce goods in America either. Apple can still produce products outside of America and sell them everywhere else but it wouldn't be a good idea to do that in America.
>implying people need Iphones
>implying anybody is going to buy iphones if they get that expensive.
Your logic is terrible. American are not incapable of producing themselves.
What don't you understand about economies? You NEED production for them to work. without production there is no real capital except for the people who own large companies.
>>70030159
Free trade implies equal trade playforms, which don't exist.
>>70030194
>Trump has God-emperor worthy children
You mean clones?
>>70030118
>hurts our citizens
I'm sure dirt cheap electronics and clothing hurts you very much
>marginally
because our industrial revolution only "marginally" improved our lives right?
>>70029828
>we have alternatives
No we don't. Have you seen the unemployment rate. The real one.
>>70029893
Kony2012 was basically a bunch of liberals finding out that the eternal peace of Africa was disturbed by a diabolic villain named Kony. They hit their "like" and "follow" buttons to defeat him, then went back to their ignorance of the world.
My point is liberals assume no cruelty exists in the world until they find out about it. Liberals don't mind using slave labor because they're ignorant about it, and when they're ignorant about something, that something must be the ideal.
>>70030260
And how is hurting Apple's sales going to Make America Great Again? Less iPhones also means less app sales, accessories, repair, and all sorts of other related services. This idea that punishing companies who manufacture in other countries makes no sense.
>>70030367
You are very stupid. Prices for our cheap electronics going up wouldn't even matter if Americans had more opportunity. Do you really care about your cheap iphone? Would you trade that and pay a little more if it meant more Americans could afford to purchase a home? Christ you are retarded. YES! Cheap electronics hurt our citizens. And the industrial revolution has no place in discussions about deported opportunity
Who here can defend the 46% tarif the chinese slapped on british steel?
>>70030367
How do you not understand this.
Yes we have dirt cheap products but all of that money is going to china and our company leader overlords. We keep spending money on dirt cheap products, it goes into the companies pockets and they dish it out to little Chinese kids and the cycle continues.
Your sucking the American people dry.
Now, what if we highly incentivized our company overlords to dish out that money back to the American people. Then the American people get that money back and spend it on products. Rather than sucking us dry, we have a equilibrium where money is constantly changing hands in America.
Companies spend more, Americans spend more, everyone is more happy. The end.
>>70030682
>Would you trade that and pay a little more if it meant more Americans could afford to purchase a home? Christ you are retarded. YES!
Go back to r/sandersforpresident
>>70030605
America is fully capable of making cheap iPhones. Maybe not as cheap, but the jobs will make it well worth it in the end.
The transition could be difficult, and that's what probably scare most people away.
>>70026062
Why do you feel the need to defend slave labor?
>>70030950
You are truly retarded. I'm advocating for tariffs and am an avid Trump supporter.
>>70030605
As long as there isn't a constant trade imbalance then we don't need to punish them. When we have a huge trade deficit less money flows back through our economy. All the growth is at the top, not the middle and bottom.
>>70031016
This this this this this this this fucking this
>>70031016
>America is fully capable of making cheap iPhones
No we're not. We have no factories, no trained workers, and no parts manufacturing. We have nothing. It would take decades to get up to speed. Who's going to make that investment? Paying a 40% tariff would be cheaper!
>>70026062
Every Trump voter would instantly turn on him once half the stuff at Wal-Mart doubles in price. Can we impeach him for making our cheap plastic Chinese made goods more expensive? I can't pay afford 9.99 for a bucket of army men.
>>70030605
its not going to hurt apples sales if they stop giving the Chinese our money. They have a simple choice. Employ people in America or lose sales.
If apple is actually retarded enough to not come to America then another company will show up and destroy apple with cheaper prices while also supporting American families put food on the table.
>>70030950
Not in taxes, you numbskull.
If our products are made in America, we might pay a little more but the benefit will outweigh the negatives because more Americans will have work.
This is nothing like dishing out our hardearned cash for some retards to trade weed for EBT.
>>70031190
You ignored an important aspect of the argument.
>the transition could be difficult
>>70027716
>Trump policies are the same that made Russians drive the same Ladas for 50 years.
Protip: The automotive industry is already full of tariffs.
We don't get foreign-made trucks because of the "Chicken Tax".
>>70027212
Anon, that's not how that works.
>>70028240
>being poor
>>70026901
> Us working class Americans will take the fall
That illogical conclusion. Tariffs are literally a method of protectionism aimed bolstering the working class.
It's one thing to argue about whether or not it will actually work. It's another thing to prove you actually have no understanding of the concept.
>>70031653
Thank you for stepping in on my stead brother. I didn't even realize that spin he put on my comment.
>>70030383
You missed my point completely. I was saying that the working conditions in china look like shit because even entry-tier work in america (fast food, retail, etc) has better pay and better working conditions
>>70030682
No you are very stupid, the answer isn't as simple as "throw a tariff 2 bring back da jobs :DDD" like protectionist populists like Sanders and Trump want you to think. Trade is what keeps the prices low, having a job doesn't matter if everything is expensive as shit anyways. Let me put it into personal finance terms for you:
Lets say you make $30k in bumfuck nowhere where everything is cheap as shit. You then get a job offer in New York where you'll be making $35k, however, that $35k won't carry you as far as the $30k did in bumfuck nowhere because New York is expensive as hell. What you're saying right now is that the $35k is better, despite you not being able to afford as much with the $35k as you could with the $30k in bumfuck nowhere.
>>70030933
They aren't stealing your money you dumb fucking idiot, you're paying for their products and everyone in the first cycle benefits from it. This is commie socialist Sandersfag-tier thinking
>>70031848
Fuck.
Was meant for>>70031621
>inb4 samefag
>>70031190
Thats why they have to build factories,(this is an insane thought) train and employ AMERICANS and make parts in America employing even more Americans.
>who would make that investment
Anybody whose smart enough to invest in the future instead of saying fuck it. You know the kind of thing that separates us from the animals.
>>70031472
Even if Apple manufacture all US sold products domestically to avoid the tariffs (which is impossible because all the parts are made in Asia and would be hit with the tariff), they would still have to raise prices on those US sold products considerably to make up for the increased labor costs, taxes, and recouping capital investment. There's no way prices wouldn't go up, significantly, which, as you might recall from Econ 101, would invariably lead to lower sales.
Who is this mythical company who would manufacture in the US to undercut Apple (can't see how that's even possible. Again, all the parts are made in Asia, and US employment costs and taxes are much, much higher)? How would they be able to undercut Apple, even if Apple were paying a 40% import tariff? That 40% would still be less than the increased production costs of manufacturing in the US.
>>70031325
Its okay because you will be able to afford it. You can finally get a job.
>>70031472
>If apple is actually retarded enough to not come to America then another company will show up and destroy apple with cheaper prices
You SEVERELY underestimate the loyalty of iPhone kids. Their mentality is "blue bubbles or die"
They already have a 10 year grasp on your average Apple user. Everything from the phone to the Mac to the readily-available accessories- they're not going anywhere
>>70031621
>the benefit will outweigh the negatives because more Americans will have work.
in your opinion.
>>70031811
I should have said "the middle class".
>>70026062
yes it will increase cost of products but it would also create a job for some american to produce it + all taxes left in USA and decreases spending on foreign products. If Trump does this you could face other problems in global competition arena when importing your goods but I am not sure how much do you even import?
>>70032148
Say that to all the programmers and other technology workers who'll be laid off or not even be hired in the first place because electronics cost a metric shit ton to buy
>>70029343
And nobody answers this
>>70029195
The reason murrica has no rare earth mines is because legislation against radioactive waste is retarded and deems thorium as dangerous as an exploded dirty bomb.
>>70032033
So the whole production chain will move to the US immediately when trump puts tariffs in place, it won't take years and the companies won't take into consideration the fact that such laws change all the time.
>>70026901
>>70026062
And people will stop buying those products and others will take advantage of it to make a profit. Are you just stupid or are you actually 8?
>>70026062
I see no problem placing tariffs on american companies trying to run away from the US for cheaper labor. They can go fuck themselves.
>>70031848
I got you
>>70032077
Yes but those increased costs are going straight into the American peoples pockets who will now have enough money to buy a house and a slightly more expensive Iphone because they have a job.
You act like you can't make the parts in America when you very clearly can. Sure you might have to buy raw material from other countries but you can produce the parts in America.
This mythical company is anyone who see's that apple is being retarded and realize they can make extremely similar phones for half the price.
If the average American is unemployed and the cost of an Iphone suddenly rises 40% they aren't going to sell well.
If the average American is now making a lot more money and the cost of Iphones raise 60% they can now afford it and will buy it.
>>70032445
>in your opinion.
You won't be able to ignore the increase in American employment. That will be an objective fact. Whether that number's increase is good or bad in your opinion, that's on you.
>>70032148
Because there's gonna be recession, unless Trump gets elected? Baleeb me?
>>70032445
Then they can be retarded and spend all of their money every year. If there is a profit to be made selling cheaper phones it will happen though.
>>70026062
>guys! forcing companies to actually produce their product in the US is a bad thing!
liberal logic everyone. The fucking idiots think that open borders is good and walls are racist, and shipping jobs overseas helps the economy somehow! The fucking dolts need to be purged on mass.
>>70033244
Trumps insane knowledge of business and economics will do wonders for the American people. There's no candidate of any of the original god knows how many on both sides who even comes near.
So many people fell for the globalist memes.
America doesn't need the rest of the world. Be sovereign, protect and deregulate; it's just common sense.
It shouldn't completely disconnect itself from the global market though because of the greater geopolitical game, the need to spread its influence, and set an example in making countries inter-dependent to make wars less likely, etc.
But right now, your own society is disintegrating. You need to fix your own shit if you want to remain a superpower.
>>70032611
I said they will be able to afford it. Programmers aren't going to lose there jobs because they are still needed. People will still be using technology. I'm still using the same laptop I bought 7 years ago.
people will still buy their products so long as they have the money to. And they will because they're going to be employed to make the damn things.
>>70033286
Less trade = more jobs and a stronger economy. Got it.
>>70033409
I try, but I can't stump him. I can't wait until the military is so great that my head spins.
>>70032657
It would take at most a year. Most of that time would be building things.
Trump will be president for a decade and both the left and the right are against free trade.
Once its gone it won't be coming back any time soon.
>>70033507
A globalist meme? You are advocating the exact opposite of what Washington said. Trade and commerce with Europe (the world), avoid political connections. You're the globalist.
>>70026062
>op hasn't had an economics class
Trump's proposals will decrease the supply of foreign labor in the US. While this will increase inflation (prices for you plebs) it will also decrease unemployment by increasing demand for domestic labor.
His proposals on foreign trade will make imports more expensive relative to domestic goods. This will increase the rate of return for domestic investment, which will in turn also drive up the demand for labor.
The only downside to trumps policies will be increased inflation, but GDP will increase alongside it so who gives a fuck.
Literally econ 1010
>>70026062
What about the chicken tax? It was a tariff on compact trucks.
Example of it working:
>The U.S. Customs Service changed vehicle classifications in 1989, automatically relegating two-door SUVs to light truck status.[4] Toyota Motor Corp., Nissan Motor Co., Suzuki (through a joint venture with GM), and Honda Motor Co. eventually built assembly plants in the U.S. and Canada in response to the tariff.[1]
>>70033832
Not an economist, but this has been my lumens argument. Common sense should guide the non believers.
>>70033244
Lol lets just ignore the unemployment rate. Lets ignore the fact that all of our money is going to Chinese kids who spend it on Chinese goods to help other Chinese people where china taxes them.
The only people this will negatively affect is kikes, mega ultra businesses and retired people.
I'm guessing your the kike.
>>70033634
Less free international trade. prove me wrong.
pro tip: you can't.
>americans
>spent their entire youth making fun of sweatshops in china, india and their poor work conditions
>think trump will make america great again by building sweatshops in a america
can't make this shit up
>>70033776
So in one year the whole production chain of everything that is produced outside the US is gonna move into the country and invest hundreds of millions of dollars to build factories that might become useless is the law changes (which it does often), this will cause a huge influx in low skilled jobs and make pays bigger while not making the US less competitive in global trade.
Is all this bullshit possible? Maybe, if trump was a literal god emperor, could reshape the country at will with no congress to bother him, did it all correctly and swiftly, maybe it would work.
But that's not the case. He's just gonna increse costs, bankrupt businesses, bail out some of them and have his tariffs repealed by the next president, which will probably be a democrat promising change! back to how it was! with more marxism now!
>>70033391
>BUT IF WE DON'T LET THEM GO, OUR PRICE OF LIVING WILL INCREASE 200 FOLD AND WE WILL ALL STARVE AND DIE
I have actually seen Cruz fags make this argument too.
>>70034468
The difference is America is civilized. Unlike sweatshops hue hue land we won't work to 2 cents an hour and die from overworking while being forced to live in company barracks (which also docks pay)
>>70034468
No, he won't build sweatshops here you fucking degenerate, because we have LAWS that prevent the such. And with no illegal immigrants, there won't be any room for subhuman wages.
>>70033615
>Programmers aren't going to lose there jobs because they are still needed
Not as much as before, because technology isn't as affordable, and it'll also cost more for them to buy PC's.
>people will still buy their products so long as they have the money to. And they will because they're going to be employed to make the damn things.
Do you realize how fucking expensive all the shit made in Asia would be if it was made in America? Way too expensive for someone making the average of $25,000 a year. (source http://www.indeed.com/salary/Factory-Worker.html)
>>70034344
>>70034452
If you think we will trade at the same levels with those tariff levels, why?
American businesses will be able to build infrastructure, start production and pay 7.25 minimum wage in a year to offset the losses of imports and maintain reasonable prices.
pro tip: pro tip you can't is b tier.
>>70033832
You don't factor in 7.25 minimum wage(at least) vs 1 a day? They'll hire as many Americans as Chinese in their factory? They likely wouldn't or couldn't and make a profit and prices would still sky rocket.
>>70034832
And in which case, be ready to dosh out $100 for a t-shirt.
The only thing that a protectionist/autarky system of laws would ensure is that Americans wouldn't get access to new iPhones (example) for 4 years (8 if they decide to give Trump a second term) while the companies weather out the storm abroad. It would cost them less to just stop sending shit to the US for four years (and then resume business as usual once the laws are abolished again) than to move production back to the US.
>>70034706
Its very possible. Remember spending money is always worth it if you get more in return.
Apple makes 18 billion a year. Most companies that have the resources to leave America are making billions a year. I'm sure they'll figure something out.
tariffs work
look at history
>>70035269
Like building factories in Mexico or Vietnam or anywhere but America and China.
>>70035196
>$100 for a t-shirt
You're such a tool, piss-stained France.
>>70035378
A fucking leaf, etc. Nice rebuttal of my argument though.
>>70035196
hey idiot
american goods have always been more expensive than 3rd world slave labor trash
it changes fucking nothing
>>70026062
Yeah actually. Everyone else does it. Sounds like you enjoy your cuckoldry, hence why everyone else is beating us to shit. Nice try, feds.
>>70026062
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ian-fletcher/america-was-founded-as-a_b_713521.html
America and its wealth was built on protectionism.
>>70035196
>trump
>only 4 years
>guys its just going to go back to normal in 8 years so whats the point of even trying
Thats your argument? Why try to do anything? Just let them fuck you in the ass, they're going to fuck you in the ass eventually anyway.
Denmark has a 180% tariff on cars, this didn't make Denmark into a car manufacturing superpower.
>>70027356
holy shit, how many times has Trump said he will shut down the epa?
pay attention
>>70031944
On your point about relative working conditions.
Sparkling shit isn't better than shit. The Chinese people have a choice. Either continue to get fucked by lack of workplace regulations/rights for the rest of their lives, or stand up and make their voice heard. I seriously think political and cultural revolution in China will happen in our lifetime.
>>70034823
>>70034832
so a chinese iphone costs you guys 299, right?
how much u think you're gonna pay for one made in us, with high paying american employees?
add on top of that the investment costs that enterprises will need pay to set up the factories in us and will be passed over to costumers
add on top of that number an increasing inflaction that WILL happen and trump hasnt said how he would deal with it
things are just not that easy guys
>>70035712
>Denmark has a 180% tariff
Denmark has no tariffs. EU has.
>>70035908
Apple already makes some products in the US. So, a five bucks more?
>>70032077
Can you cite hard figures for your claim in your last sentence? Multiple sources would be nice, if this were so obvious many places would agree.
Watch the "Trump Effect" before EA takes it off of YouTube forever!....................
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F082JKzJqE
>>70035969
Then why can i only find sources on Denmark having massive tariffs on cars, but none on the EU?
>>70035426
I've bought american made shirts for 25 dollars. And it was a very nice shirt. You're retarded.
What in gods name are we going to do when we can't buy shitty 10 dollar Hanes shirts that last a month.
>>70035908
They just can't understand why no other country in the world is as smart as they are. Obviously, if you lock out foreign markets (by high tariffs) then the wealth will stay at home and production and jobs will rise sky-high. It's so easy!
>>70035908
They are in Trumpland. You can't stop us from making this great again. Baleeb us. It's gonna be wunderfuwl, tremendous, some of the greatest products.
>>70036061
Apples doesn't overcharge for anything. No way they'll pass extra overhead onto consumers.
>>70035354
It'll be a little more difficult because of all those regulations but it would still be worth it for the companies.
>>70028451
>Like if we had no child labor laws or minimum wage, I'm sure our economy would be a lot more competitive,
or you know, lower taxes
>>70026062
Yeah, God forbid we take steps to encourage self sufficiency.
prices will stabilize after a while, and it will actually lead to economic growth
but it should hurt your anuses at first so prepare them
>>70035908
I don't roughly 400 hundred dollars. doesn't matter though because for each of those Iphones they had to pay an American to make it. Meaning that American now has more money to spend on whatever he wants.
You realize that the rising cost isn't going to be a problem when that extra money is already going straight to the American people right.
>>70036375
They want to make less profit? Is that what the ultimate deal maker Trump would do?
>>70036246
>Apples doesn't overcharge for anything. No way they'll pass extra overhead onto consumers.
To be realistic, their prices don't actually reflect manufacturing costs. They are likely determined by the marketing dept, so yeah, no change in price is a reasonable assumption.
>>70036246
>implying they aren't already
>>70035908
The cost to make an iPhone 6 is $200. They sell for $500 starting IIRC
>>70036682
They're going to be making less profit by staying in China.
This isn't a hard concept to grasp. Maybe your retarded. You see, trickle down economics doesn't work when the money trickles down to other countries.
<iframe width="351" height="197" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/VcPT9WY1__Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
>>70035196
You are one stupid motherfucker.
If you knew the first thing about business, you'd know they would do business in America even with 100% tariffs, because without it, there is no Apple.
>>70036854
The corporation will suddenly start overcharging because Trump's elected.
>>70036993
That's the point. Trump will make them stop overcharging by making it more expensive for them to produce their goods?
>>70037125
Trickle down economics doesn't work at all. Maybe you're retarded.
>>70037209
*stop overcharging
>>70028451
This.
I've been my friend this for a while.
We can't compete because the shoes that cost .15$ are because Taiwan pays their child slaves a dollar a day.
>>70036679
Oh that's great and everything but when other countries start imposing tariffs on the US in response and you can't specialize because you're producing everything the country needs instead of importing it cheaper from other countries who have specialised in it you'll be fucked
>>70037205
Marketing decides the price.
>>70026062
He hasnt yet mentioned that we are throwing the fiat currencies out the window.
>>70037209
>trickle down economics doesn't work
FEEL TEH BERN
Poor people magically make wealth of their own without getting paid by rich people.
>>70027677
>they'd just sell their good somewhere else
Not if we block their ports and shoot down any planes
>>70037205
And you are one retarded shithead. If you knew the first thing about business, you'd know that they'd rather stay out of a walled market for a few years until the fat slobbering masses demand access to cheap shit again and force Congress to abolish the tariffs. Apple has a war treasury of hundreds of billions, they'll bribe/campaign/lobby until the walls come down again, simple as that. Companies can think further ahead than politicians, who'll only think until their next re-election.
>>70037347
Other countries already tariff the U.S. bong.
>>70026062
HE'S LITERALLY HITLER AND WANTS TO KILL US ALL OMG HOW COULD WE HAVE BEEN SO BLIND THANK YOU FOR CLEARING THIS UP FOR ME, GOOD JEW SHILL!!!
>>70030933
>China trades us useless paper for hard goods
>this is bad
Is the word huge word filtered?
>>70037477
You admitted that the corporations overcharge. You don't think stockholders keep that profit? They pass that on to their workers right?
Poor people magically have monies rain down on them from rich people.
>>70031083
Sanders supports tariffs to retard
>>70037209
>>70037477
>>70037125
trickle down economics is a political meme
it doesn't even exist as a theory in economics
no where, ever, in economics does it say "the poorer employee will suddenly have more wealth if the richer employer becomes wealthier"
>>70037599
Yeah is everybody just ignoring that these tariffs will never make it through Congress with the amount of lobbying that goes on? Not to mention that it threatens the US' WTO membership
The tariff is for American companies that outsource jobs.
>outsourced goods become more expensive
>People buy from American companies
>Big companies that outsource jobs get crushed by foreign companies
>Bring jobs back
>people capitalize and start small businesses that can make the goods cheaper because they won't have to import them
>other countries forced to follow labor/pollution laws by Trump administration to eliminate unfair competition
Great
>>70037599
If they don't come to america its there loss. Fuck, maybe i'll start my own phone company.
American is the only market they beat samsung in. They aren't going to risk all the loss.
Companies are dependent on people not the other way around.
>>70037969
>its never going to happen don't even try
Great argument shill.
I guess I should just put a bullet in my brain now, i'm going to die eventually right.
>>70037679
Barely, and not to the extent (45% tax) Trump proposes. WTO and TPP ensure that, and it will be further enforced when TTIP passes
>>70026062
>All that's gonna do is drastically drive up the cost of every product in the United States. Completely retarded idea.
It is actually only viable way to tax super rich. Most profits concentrated in multinational companies but you can't tax them they just hide in tax heavens offshore. But if tariffs they can't avoid. Well they can if they move production in US but then this industry will be paying local taxes.
>>70038278
It's not a realistic policy though, and generally if you want a policy to be enacted it should be realistic so that Congress can pass it. But please, continue to cry shill even though I just implicitly complained about lobbying
>>70036150
IVANKA ON THE RAPE LIST
Trumps proposed tariff is a negotiating position, not something hard and fast that's set in stone.
If China opens their markets more, it will never be applied.
>http://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/11/trump-may-be-proven-right-on-china-tariffs-chang.html
>>70026062
you're pretty retarded if you believe ted cruz proposed import tax ON EVERYTHING is not going to increase prices by far more across the board than the THREAT of tariffs against certain nations who use currency manipulation to gain economic advantages.
>>70038516
How is it not a realistic policy? I bet your one of those people that thinks the wall is unrealistic too. Your one of those faggots that thinks everything is so complicated when in reality thats just what you say when you don't understand something. We are a sovereign nation. Congress can pass whatever the fuck they want to pass. America can do whatever we want to do. We don't really need to keep making free trade deals that hurt us.
So why shouldn't we try to end free trade?
>>70038773
THE THREAT OF ECONOMICALLY DESTROYING OURSELVES??
GREAT THREAT YOU IDIOT
>>70037205
thank you for being immune to the autism
>>70038944
English cuck is probably a tinfoil hat conspiracy pothead who blames it all on "muh illuminati" and fails to see the power of action.
>>70038593
Is that Gordon Chang?
>>70038971
the booming developing nations need access to YOUR market, not the other way around.
At least while you still have that market, it's quickly draining away. You're already at >1/4th of population on food stamps.
what really is destroying you is throwing all your manufacturing away. Have fun when the chinese say
>lol have fun everything is now 5x as expensive and you don't have any factories left making quality goods of your own
You're all underestimating Trump's genious.
>cant use brown slaves anymore
>american workers too expensive
>private sector funding of automation alternatives skyrocket
>game changing breakthroughs in robotics and AI all by American companies on American soil
>P=NP solved
>Trump annexes the world in an afternoon
>America, formerly known as Earth, reaches singularity and begins colonizing the solar system within the next 8 years
>Freedom Settlers reach Alpha Centari in the first century of Empress Ivanka's reign
MAGA
>>70038593
Ah yes it is. Good ol' John Batchelor.
>>70026062
So driving up prices is perfectly acceptable in raising minimum wage which improves shit only (if at all) for people doing the absolute minimum, and even then most will get laid off and be lucky to find any job at all.
But rising prices due to tariffs are unacceptable despite that doing so would vastly improve the US economy and bring back (higher than minimum wage) paying jobs and give any who want it the opportunity to better themselves?
This whole argument is happening, but you're all attacking/defending the wrong thing. Trump's tax only applies to companies that outsource our jobs. Know his ideas before you attack them.
>>70027356
> being this stupid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs_in_United_States_history
>>70038944
Because, as you and other seem to be incapable of understanding, free trade works both ways. If you raise tariffs, then others will raise tariffs against your products. As a result, your imports will drop, but so will your exports.
>That's ok, the US is big enough and our market can survive on its own, the trade deficit was too high anyway
That's called autarky and protecionism/mercantillism, and there's a a reason not a single country in the world (not even North Korea) does it: because it doesn't work. Prices shoot up, employment drops, and as a result the entire economy shrinks. You can't cut off your country from the international markets and maintain the same standard of living. Economy is not a zero-sum game and it can be a lose-lose game.
>>70038944
Congress DON'T WANT TO PASS IT. You think all of them want to enact a Trump policy (who most of them hate) that hurts the very people that give them money to run for their office?
>>70035196
I can already buy made in america t-shirts for $10-$20, dipshit. It costs slightly more, but if it means that we create more jobs and more industry here it's worth it.
>>70040030
ty for getting it. I hope your country becomes less shit soon because I quite like it
>>70033832
>The only downside to trumps policies will be increased inflation
Don't try to play that off as something insignificant.
That's a good reason to vote for Ted instead, and I don't even like him.
>>70040030
Bitch the world needs America. This is what you fail to understand, we have an enormous acquisitive power. We were great before 1991 we can be great again without them. Why the fuck do you think the only way out is through child slave wages.
>>70040459
That's because most other people are buying shitty shirts made by 10 year old slaves in Cambodia, fucktard. What do you think will happen once they can't and have to buy those same t-shirts as you do? Hint: supply and demand.
>>70040323
Obamunnism has passed a lot of executive orders that allow more executive orders. Fuck it, let's go full authoritarian to MAGA
>>70040744
Got get bombed fuckhead, that's a completely unrelated response.
>>70027135
an opinion based off a lot of retarded assumptions to boot
>>70028451
>Mercantilism is what we need m8
It's not what we need, but it's not like china does impose it's own traiffs and the
"free trade" deals are in them selves just shit cronyism for specific companies.
Really hoping trump dismantles the regulatory environment though.
>>70041193
Either you produce at the same cost of the shitty countries you try to exclude from your market (i.e. low wages) or you consume at a much higher cost. At the end of the day you can't replicate a 7 billion people market in a 300 million people market. You can't pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, how hard is that to understand?
>>70026062
>imperative: defend trump's tariffs
>phrase sentences
>use of adjective "retarded"
Defend them against what? You haven't made an argument against them.
>>70026062
You could start by investigating what Trump's "tariff proposals" actually are.
He's never said that he was in favor of tariffs. He said our trade deals are bad, and we need to renegotiate them by threatening to impose tariffs on countries that have tariffs on our goods if they refuse to lower their existing tariffs on our goods.
Trump is for free trade, but he is against bad deals. If you actually delve into his position you would understand that he is against tariffs, not for them.
Anyone with an elementary level education in economics understands that tariffs are bad. It's bad when they're imposed on us, and it's bad when we impose them on others. He wants to stop other countries from imposing them on us.
>>70035908
Hold on you moron. Most things made in china are more accurately labeled "assembled in china." iPhones are no exception, the labor costs are not as significant compared to what it takes to design and market the damn thing. They outsource to pad the bottom line, not out of necessity.
Trump backs Tesla.
America changes to electric motoring within a year.
Pioneers electrical motoring and technology.. Which filters down through the system to all other related technologies.
...america actually has a viable export product.
RoboCop rebuilds Detroit.
America grates again..
Your lucky I'm a Muslim and not a Mexican.
>>70026062
He hasn't made any awful tariff proposals, faggot
This is a slide thread.
>>70041993
>>70042744
You know the thread already has over 200 replies right?
If you can't contribute don't bother posting
>>70042744
these threads are always interesting because it's a bunch of people simultaneously attacking and defending a straw man argument.
It's frightening how completely economically retarded some people are that they actually think tariffs are a good idea. Fortunately Trump is not one of those people.
>>70040030
You don't seem to understand. We don't need the world.
Consider the following. America stops being the world police and we mind our own business.
its almost like your afraid big papa isn't going to be around anymore.
>>70040744
What happens when the demand for American made shirts goes up?
They open more factories and produce more goods. They get better deals from their suppliers because they buy more product. They hire more workers and get better deals on things like benefits packages and more profitable retirement programs.
Or maybe they're really smart and they integrate vertically and make their business even more profitable.
I happen to come from a family who once worked blue collar manufacturing jobs. They thrived. They own their own homes, they live in the suburbs, they have nice things like cars and boats and swimming pools that they own outright. They have retirements. They didn't have any problem buying American goods then just like we don't have problems buying American goods now and we won't have problems buying them in the future.
You're categorically wrong and history literally proves it. This country was a powerhouse before its secondary sector was hollowed out and sold to China.
Do I give a fuck if someone has to pay $600 instead of $500 for an iPhone? No.
Hell, I'd gladly force those assholes to pay more for an iPhone if it meant giving the next few generations a hope to live the American dream like my family who came before me.
>>70026062
Because it drives up the GDP of the country by favoring goods and services sourced locally.
In the long run with larger imports than exports the USA is going broke. By far the largest issue with the US right now is that their spending and debt accumlation isn't sustainable the debt can only get so large and then you're either going to default and lose your status as worlds reserve currency, or the dollar will have to go through hyper inflation.
i actually doubt that the US will recover from the national debt, trump will slow the decline a lot if he gets in but I think fundamentally the US will go broke and those are some bad times ahead.
>>70026062
Nah mate, I've been playing a game of Victoria II with tariffs at 100% and you make bank
>>70042933
>>70042938
>>70043056
literal retards ITT
>>70040323
You're right. I am now a cruz missile.
Stop moving the goal posts you nihilist. Lets just say theoretically congress doesn't get shamed into passing it.
You don't have a valid argument. Your argument is "nothing really matters in the end anyways"
Are you trying to tell me not to vote for Trump or are you trying to tell me that free trade works.
Either way your a stupid nihilist who doesn't know what they're talking about.
>>70042901
The quality of OP's post is shit, and he should be reminded 200 more times. Go fuck yourself.
>>70041684
Why do you have this idea that American companies have to move all their production to the U.S.? They can still have factories outside of the U.S. to sell to peasants.
Also who says American companies need to sell to third worlders? They don't. They can let shit skins do things for themselves.
>>70026062
I agree anon, we need to roll over and let China rape our manufacturing sector via slave labor and currency manipulation for the good of the CEO jews that moved their factories over there.
>>70026062
>Trump gets elected
>Mobilizes personal brigade
>Raids area 51 and dulce base
> Discloses zero point ,anti gravity,cloning ,light frequency based healing technologies
> Free energy ,free clone labour , inter stellar travel,cure for any decease ,enhanced lifetime to 1000years ,all available to public.
>Murica goes from 21 century nation to 31 century
Thats how you make america great again
>>70043843
Now you're thinking like a true conservative (tm)
>>70042744
ah what the hell nsa
Schlomuel Kronenberg
>>70042388
How are tariffs bad for America? Anyone with an inkiling of economic understanding knows tariffs are not bad when your country is the biggest buyer of goods.
Free trade is only good for poor countries. Its bad for rich countries.
>>70043873
Add "kill all the mudslimes" to that list and it would be perfect
protectionism is bad and is anti free trade. there is no doubt this is one of his flaws.
i'm still going to support Trump though, he's still by far the best option we've got damn it.
>>70042911
>tarifs aren't a good idea
Explain to me how incentivizing our own companies to produce in America is a bad idea?
>>70043226
So far you haven't provided an argument and all you do is call other people retarded.
Control + F subsidy
>0 results
The specificity rule would argue against tariffs, because they are not the DIRECT cause of the problem.
>ignoring that Trump hasn't called specifically for tariffs
The anti-tariff economic argument argues in favor of government subsidies to correct industrial production shortages. Subsidies require government spending, and thus, taxation. If the trade deficit if the result of cheating on the part of foreign companies, then no amount of subsidy will ever be viable long term. You have to engage in some form of trade war, and that can take the form of tariffs, or tariff-like measures. This can result in retaliation, possibly nullifying the tariffs regardless.
IFF the trade imbalance is the result of corruption, or political patronage, ie, investment bankers and "vulture capitalists" greasing Congress to ease offshoring to third world shitholes using slave labor, then the third world shitholes probably don't actually have a real competitive advantage. Chinese communists manipulating their economy to corrode and dismantle US industrial production is not a free market functioning. Tariffs are a moot point under those circumstances, since you aren't talking about any kind of immanent free market, you're talking about complete artificial pseudo-markets and market socialism.
Nothing is necessary on the table, and nothing is off the table.
>>70044393
Muh gdp
The gap in productivity, profits, and wages suggests that companies can indeed afford to pay workers more, but are facing no market pressures to do so.
>>70027356
Shut up and listen Mark Levin.
>>70044352
Is it really bad when the people you are "free trading" with use slave labor and all "trading" is one way?
>>70044634
>implying letting third worlders produce all our goods = better GDP
>>70044579
>This can result in retaliation
What the hell would they do to retaliate?
Stop taking our money?
Wew.
>>70029288
Yeah actually, there are companies who can't claim some of the products are made in the USA if one single component is made else where. It has to be 100% American made. Some TVs could be 98% American made, but it has one little component made who fuck knows where which hurts that designation.
>>70026062
Not every product. Thanks to existing agricultural subsidies, food and other necessities will remain as cheap as they are now.
Manufactured goods, particularly electronics and cars, will increase in cost for foreign-made stuff, but those are a small issue. Very affordable cars (like the new Tesla) are already being made in the USA, and it didn't crash the economy.
The upside is that millions of Americans will become employed as manufacturing moves back into the country to take advantage of the market without facing tariffs.
This is literally a pro-labor policy, why would anyone be opposed to it?
>>70044922
Free trade is bad so long as we use different currencies and have a minimum wage.
You can't compete with poor people without being dragged to their level.
>>70045056
>What the hell would they do to retaliate?
>Stop taking our money?
Google "Chinese purchase of American currency reserves and debt" and "petrodollar warfare", and "Chinese investment Africa". You Amazing nigger.
>HAHAHA AMERICA!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmANxHJ6s9M
/thread
>>70043424
I'm saying if you want the policy, tone it down so it's swallowable.
I believe in free trade to some extent, and certainly don't think that Trump's tariff proposals are a good or well thought out idea but that doesn't matter. There's no point discussing the consequences of a 45% tax on Chinese imports when it'd never pass in a million years, instead consider discussing the effects of something like a 10% tariff where it's a reasonable policy that Congress may accept and the WTO may let slide
You fools still believe this financial system gonna exist till the end of this century ?switzerland ,finland already is planning to establish basic universal income for every citizen , industry gets automated at massive rates ,this system will be irrelevant soon .Ps. Watch i'm robot , global economy crysis will be perfect gift for trump as it was for obama
>>70026062
It will keep people with jobs and make jobs worthwhile.
>>70026062
>completely retarded idea
Oh my goodness I never expected such a thing from Donald Trump. This can't be right.
