I see a lot of people claiming that with automation there will come a time where people will get a basic income for doing literally nothing.
Im not here to discuss if this is true or not, lets assume it is for the sake of the thread.
Is society gonna collapse under these circumstances?
In my opinion, not having to work but having a guaranteed basic income will unleash such a degeneracy the likes of which we have never seen before.
Just imagine it.. Like, 50% at least, of the degeneracy today is because of people who take advantage of the welfare system to sit around do drugs and have a bunchload of kids which they raise poorly. One of the few reasons why people "act civilized" anymore is because of the societal consequences which come from degeneracy which may very well threaten their job/well-being.
Our whole society is based around becoming a productive adult who has a job and earns his own, this is the basic "making it" in the life of an average person with no great aspirations-meaning most people out there.. So what the fuck happens when we're allowed to literally live like kids on a sizeable allowance forever?
Not to mention that the party which is in power when such a law is passed will pretty much remain in power forever unless someone else comes along and promises even MORE basic income
society is gonna be the kid of a divorce who's rich parents fight for it's love by constantly spoiling it with gifts and money
that always turns out well
Very depressing... :/ Automation and the need to work less should have been a good thing, but we're not enlightened enough for it.
I think that the plan is to allow the degeneracy, but somehow turn it into a mean of social control. Mass surveillance (often voluntary) would allow that. The main problem would be raising kids. I guess the state would take that over. Brave New World pretty much.
>>69946042
My thoughts too.
At that point people will probably be handing their kids to the state. Who wants to raise some little shit when you can literally do anything you want all day long?
>>69946502
Surely most people would even stop having children altogether if they taxed them.
They could even make them so expensive that only the rich or large collectives could afford them (unless sponsored by the state or something).
If the state just wants more children, they could just pay women to carry them until birth and then institutionalize them. I guess they would need implants that check for drugs/alcohol and chocs, etc, and fine the mothers if they hurt the fetus.
At this point I think I'd prefer Islam. :/
Maybe so, but it's either that or everybody starves for absolutely nothing and the machines make things we can't even consume.
>>69944314
>Like, 50% at least, of the degeneracy today is because of people who take advantage of the welfare system to sit around do drugs and have a bunchload of kids which they raise poorly.
Can we definitively define "degeneracy" (beyond "anything in excess" which is also a shitty and unspecific definition) and get some actual sources about welfare systems subsidizing shitty people?
Also, are you a communist of some sort? Automation is just the means by which capitalism increases productivity and efficiency, you have absolutely """"nothing""" to worry about!
>>69947541
yeah and of course I would prefer everyone to starve rather than have the tumblr sub-culture of non-genderism and squirelkin and shit become the mainstream, cause thats whats gonna happen
just think everything you see in a degeneracy thread on /pol/ applied on worldwide standards
>>69945061
>society is gonna be the kid of a divorce who's rich parents fight for it's love by constantly spoiling it with gifts and money
Thats probably the best analogy of democracy I've heard.
As for the topic, I do agree. The only way I could see this working is a culture which has significantly different values, where people actively try to better themselves and their society, without the need for a profit motive. I doubt this will ever happen.
Realistically, I see something more like 1984 happening. The vast majority of people are poor, and both technology and wealth are in the hands of a minority (e.g. inner/outer party).
>If everything is automated, then the vast majority of people don't have jobs
>If the vast majority of people don't have jobs, then they don't have money to spend
>If they don't have money to spend, then no one can buy the products that automation manufactures
>A black market appears to meet demand
>The black market consists of human laborers building for each other
>Everything starts over
>>69944314
more production being automated means more consumption.
more consumption means more services are necessary.
that's not to say there won't be hiccups along the way, like people trained to do things that are no longer necessary.
our generation will suffer for it, but the next generation will have their lives built around it.
ultimately people instead of having to do a little bit of everything in order to get by will only have to do a few things, that hopefully they're really good at.
lack of factory work is a big factor in why there is so much income inequality and why it's so widespread today, but degeneracy i think has more to do with the number of single parent households.
"empowered women" were told they don't need men to raise children, and from their end that's true, because it's not until way after 16 that it becomes painfully obvious that a boy didn't really learn how to be a man.
we were raised to believe we should cater to the whim of women, when in reality both men and women need men to be strong and put women in their place.
>>69948003
>The only way I could see this working is a culture which has significantly different values, where people actively try to better themselves and their society, without the need for a profit motive
exactly, if we were at that place then people would be "free" to perform arts and philosophy and shit but in the sense of the renaissance, we could literally become enlightened if we didnt have to work to survive and instead just tried to improve ourselves, but as you said, this kind of population will never exist
>>69948381
>lack of factory work is a big factor in why there is so much income inequality and why it's so widespread today, but degeneracy i think has more to do with the number of single parent households.
most of the degenerates I know of, come from rich nuclear families, they literally at the place Im describing in the OP but instead of welfare they have the family money which leaves them open to pursue degenerate "progressive" shit and YOLO culture
its like anti-white articles and kikes, youre right literally 99.5% of the time when you assume these kind of people come from money
most tumblarinas are the same way also
Most people will become like cattle. Eventually I guess they'll be slaughtered just for convenience or maybe even out of pity. The only reason most of us don't get slaughtered now is because there's the possibility of rebellion, but once the mass of people literally don't work at all, don't have any skills, and are completely pacified, there'll be no reason for the elites to keep them alive.
>>69948652
Yea, not having to work means you become degenerate. Living for hedonistic pleasure is garbage, as hedonism doesn't work. It works for a few months and that's it. You just get bored, no matter how extravagant it is.
The same thing that you see happening to individual people who are born rich is what happens to societies that become rich.
There could still be a lot of jobs if there was a need for A LOT MORE production.
Automation kills jobs because it is managed by an elite that is extremely skilled. They fill the demand very efficiently, and then that's that.
But if production had to be higher than the need of the consumers, a lot of the automation could end up being managed by less skilled people. There's still a lot of human communication needed to direct and document projects (especially WRT their relations with other projects). And there would be many more separate projects if the stuff that needed to be made changed often. Development needs a lot of testing and experimenting. The programming doesn't have to be done by experts as long as everything is well tested and manageable.
Demand could be increased with war, or great projects like fixing the environment, colonizing space or draining the mediterranean, just whatever.
I don't know how this would work out economically though. :/
>>69944314
Machines don't maintain themselves. Regulations don't uphold themselves. Buildings don't clean themselves. Robots don't program themselves.
>>69949344
>I don't know how this would work out economically though
http://www.ruralpovertyportal.org/country/home/tags/india
Why don't you ask rural India how it works out when industrial and economic progress is held back because Luddites had their way.
>>69944314
>Our whole society is based around becoming a productive adult who has a job and earns his own
Finally worked this out have you Greece?
>>69949344
>>69949525
the point is what happens to a society where everyone deserves basic income for simply existing
automation is just the excuse for this "thought experiment" Im not arguing if automation will ever actually achieve this
>>69944314
No, people thought the same thing during the industrial revolution in the 1800s when looms started becoming automated, don't fight the progress of humans it will be better in every way, I'm sure in another 300 years people will be saying the same thing, history doesn't repeat itself but it does rhyme
We're gonna need massive depopulation.
We'll give abundant handouts for sterilization of the pleb class so they don't need to revolt. I doubt they'll care.
>>69949851
>No, people thought the same thing during the industrial revolution
and if those people were somehow resurrected today and saw the world they would think they were right
just because you were born and raised in degeneracy and are used to it, it doesnt mean its not rampant out there
>>69950003
The people who were shocked that looms were automated wondered 'oh no what will the women do now they can't make blankets all day?' And what did they do? Other shit. Just because some dude isn't spraying cars in a factory or putting boxes on a shelf it doesn't mean they'll walk around in circles all day, there's other shit to do
>>69950310
>The people who were shocked that looms were automated wondered 'oh no what will the women do now they can't make blankets all day?' And what did they do?
they went out and started fucking dudes all day long and tried to legitimize it as a "movement"
can you honestly imagine the females of 2016 heading somewhere good if someone told them "you get basic income every month sweety now get out there and do your thing!"
Im not saying everyone will do it, but considering how many people already live these kind of lives now that "decency" is still a societal factor, just imagine what happens when thats gone
>not wanting to live in a state of constant pleasurable stimulation protected by robot servants
I don't care that fags will get to be happy. I can't see them through VR goggles anyway.
>>69950310
>and what did they do
blacks mostly
>>69950310
It caused a lot of misery (and deaths) in the following decades. People who spent most of their life perfecting their skills became completely redundant in a few years once a factory was built. It eventually made people's life better (as it should, higher productivity is good), but it took a while.
>AUTOMATION MEANS DEGENERACY
stopped reading there
>>69950310
Until the automation can design and reproduce its own upgrades. The technological singularity is coming.
>>69948235
you are assuming that money comes from work.
Don't worry, the next phase will be the singularity. Hell maybe even simultaneously. It's the end of humanity alright, but not the end of humans.
>>69950310
that's literally how feminism came to be
the first step to undoing feminism starts in the home, with a movement to encourage women to start making their own clothes again
>>69950310
also the culture youre reffering to is completely different to what we experience today
those people's moto in life wasnt YOLO
those people didnt pray hedonism
those people didnt have drugs pushed on them as a cultural fad
those people didnt have hook-up culture
those people didnt normalize anti-social behavior with "muh feels"
and yet here we are
now think whats gonna happen when we embrace the new technological revolution, when such a conservative society produced the society we live in today
>>69951052
With realistic VR on the horizon, I think it might end up with people just permanently in their own world that they choose to create, in a pod full of jelly like the matrix, we could be in a simulation right now
>>69950796
People always want more. If there are jobs at all (or any kind of opportunity to get more where you have to behave (military service, higher education, etc)), it would motivate people.
Would most women really be satisfied with the lowest income? They love money and status so much. I guess prostitution and general Internet whoring would become really popular though...
No. We'll just create new industries. That's what we do with every new age.
>if tractors are made 50% of Americans will be unemployed!
>>69951402
Maybe we'll be that crazy old dude who says everything was better back in his day, there will be shit we just don't understand but the kids will love it
>>69951581
except it would definitively NOT be "matrix-y"
we'd just have tons of public servers with shitloads of different server mods, super powers, unlimited resources, etc.
>tfw simulating roguelike hunter gatherer societies with server-side permadeath
>slaughtering Trojans in the morning until you die, grab a bite to eat, then join in on the raid of the space colony made by a bunch of Germans last night
>>69951966
that dude was right, the only difference is that we live in the age of information and we can actually map how he was right, historically, when all he could do was shout on the streets
>>69944314
>In my opinion, not having to work but having a guaranteed basic income will unleash such a degeneracy the likes of which we have never seen before.
Let me get the straight. You expect engineers to work for free running and fixing machines and for the rest of society to get everything handed to the for free? Why would anyone be an engineer if you have all your needs met by the government?
>>69952368
>Im not here to discuss if this is true or not, lets assume it is for the sake of the thread.
the point of the thread is what happens to a society where everyone deserves basic income for simply existing
>>69952368
What about when robots are fixing robots?
>>69952135
What if there was a game mode a supercomputer made that was so realistic you didn't know you were in a simulation
>>69944314
Yeah fuck you man. If automation is degenerate then in this case I'll accept it. Because we desperate need frigging robots. Stuff like the one boston dynamics is working one except with guns. Otherwise we're going to lose simply because of numbers.
With them we'd win in no time, especially when we mass produce them.
>>69952657
thats whats happening now m7
youre literally wearing a VR helmet sitting on your computer chair right now, and while in a virtual reality where you could do anything, you just sit on the same chair doing the exactly same thing you did in the real world
WAKE UP
>>69952193
Well maybe if instead of going the hedonistic route like you said, the hedonistic lifestyle starts to go out of fashion like how we don't behead people anymore and shit (oh yeah those guys still do), and instead of that people explore arts and philosophy as a sort of enlightenment, or maybe everyone just gets totally fucked up all day every day and fucks robot pussy until they die without children
>>69952822
what the fuck are you assholes reading, its like the 4th line in the OP and Ive explained it 4 times already ITT, automation is just an excuse to discuss what happens to a society which has basic income for everyone without them having to work
goddamn
>>69953023
yeah, thats the "optimistic" scenario
considering how our new generations just cling to their parents for as long as they can to fund their degenerate lifestyles without having to work, I dont see that happening really
>>69952657
it's feasible that it could be possible to an extent, but why would it ever be the case that people would willingly hook up to that server?
>oh you want me to leave my futuristic utopia where everything is so automated that literally nobody is obligated to do anything?
>I'll join a world where technology doesn't exist, I forget everything about the outside world, and I live out the rest of my days in a tribalistic society where I can hopefully have kids that will work to eventually rebuild what we already have but in a virtual world?
no dude
that was why they needed the robot overlords in the matrix, because people wouldn't willingly submit to a virtual world unless it was better than the real world
>>69953072
It doesn't change that all we can do right now is speed down this path as quickly as possible so we get the means of purging the non European infestation.
If we'd stop now, go back to manual labour and full luddite we'd be dead. So no need to even discuss it.
And what that would do is to get the bottom feeders to mass reproduce as they'd be the most likely to, quickly overtaking everyone else.
>>69953468
nigga are you seriously suggesting automation is the only way to get rid of the mudshits? its too fucking late now m8
it was always fucking late when we literally started letting them live here and not treat them as invaders
most people out there consider them neighbors now, and the amount of robots you have at your disposal really doesnt matter
unless youre dreaming a robot actual holocaust or some shit, in that case you may be right, although even now we DO have the manpower to kick them the fuck out
do you really think thats not happening because we dont have robots?
>>69953401
Maybe spawning anything into existence gets boring after a 1000 years, so people end up doing game modes in 'hard mode' where curtain rules apply and you have no idea you're in it, maybe we don't even look like we do in the 'real' world maybe our real bodies have tentacles and shit and were experiencing this game in a different body with limited actions, or maybe this is all a test to see how we cope with this world and how we act in this world determines what happens to our entities after our game time is up
>>69953717
It's not happening because people aren't realizing the danger they're in. Because they judge them from our European perspective, based on our behaviours.
Which means things need to get worse, a whole lot worse. Except by that point we don't have the numbers anymore. Which in turn means that scientific progress is the only way to save us at this point as it helps not just leveling the playing field but making their numbers meaningless.
As for holocaust that's more about PREVENTING the one they will inflict upon us, all of us Europeans inevitably at some point if we let them. The rest is more a question along the line of "Do you think they'll leave willingly?".
>>69954259
I already suggested permadeath etc. as a possibility but I simply cannot accept that an entire populace would be willing to forget the outside world for the rest of their life out of boredom
>>69954419
Who says rest of their lives?
When you die you just remember it all as a dream, then do it again after another decade of boredom
>>69954372
so theyre gonna be more, but somehow we will still control the basic means of production and building weapons secretly to kill them? listen to yourself
the only reason its happening is that most people are too far gone and used to the soft 1st world living that see everyone else not as "privileged" as them as a wounded puppy which needs help, even if that puppy is a 6'2" horny mudshit strapped with explosives
you could have terrorist attacks daily on europe and the war would still be between "us" and literally every other person alive who will automatically side with the muslims
you could make your robots and exterminate all the muslims and the leftists but there will still be people left who will consider this a genocide and in time they will fuck everything you try to built up
the only solution is making the population come to that conclusion by themselves by pointing out the subversion and brainwashing theyve been under, but thats never gonna happen
>>69944314
Automation is what's supposed to replace lower birth rates but we keep importing third world scum like a bunch of retards.
>>69954419
>be 80 on deathbed, happy with what I accomplished in life, close my eyes and drift away
>suddenly wake up
>I'm an alien squid
'You hit that dank moon weed pretty hard bruh'
>squid laughter
>>69948383
Look at ANY country or city in the world with high levels of unemployment. Degeneracy, violence, drugs, crime... when there is no profit motive and social status is not linked to wealth, humans do not try dedicate themselves to arts, philosophy and thought.
>>69949525
Actually, we've created machines that can maintain other machines autonomously - or with ONE human replacing dozens of humans.
Regulations can be programmed into Automated processes so that they are always upheld.
We've also built programs that can write other programs, analyze and optimize code - and even modify problems with their own code.
These things already exist, they've already been implemented in some places, but that is only going to get worse.
This is why first world countries need to stop importing immigrants to fill low-paid jobs. As automation becomes increasingly standard, their jobs will be the first to go - and those people will have no useful purpose in society.
