I’m generally pretty left leaning, particularly on issues regarding the economy, economic disparity, and giving the poor an opportunity to better their condition. That being said, some of what I’m seeing in Europe with the massive drain on the system by blatantly disrespectful and sometimes violent refugees and the nearly complete media blackout of this issue makes me question some of the perspectives I hold. I wonder where else I’ve been misled?
Redpill me.
you're on the same boat as me pal, economically im a bit left-ish too, but im so sick and tired of leftist immigration that i vote right wing. Except in spain, cause our right wing is literally openly corrupt and apparently no one cares.
>>69928367
No
>sage
>>69928367
>>69928670
Why the fuck not? I'd like to know the perspectives and reasoning that I've long dismissed as simply conservative dogma. Have I missed something?
>>69928779
Are you calling me a jew or telling me to blame the jews? I feel like the latter is a little bit simplistic of an explanation. Links to articles, research, and documentaries answering my initial question would be welcome.
>>69928367
My biggest problem with the idea of being politically left, and especially with the refugee crisis, is that many of us place ourselves on an elevated platform. We look down upon the poor and the refugees and decide to be the heroes, and save them from either poverty or from themselves. But we are no better.
When the refugees spill into Europe, and behave disrespectfully, even violently, I have seen very little done about it, and I believe it is because of a twisted form of arrogance displayed by first worlders.
Don't you think this world would be different if nobody wanted to be the hero and look wonderful for the media and the internet?
>>69929167
>>69928367
>by blatantly disrespectful and sometimes violent refugees
Protip
This system was faltering before these refugees showed up they are simply a symptom of failed ideas.
Book in link related extremely related
http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/21463-debunking-the-myth-of-socialist-success-in-scandinavia
>>69928367
African and Arab immigrants drive down wages for workers in European states, hold reactionary beliefs, and are a net burden on European countries. If you care about the betterment of workers and not about virtue signalling by taking in third-worlders, this is straightforward. It's mind-boggling how "leftists" who are actually just liberals will defend some of the most reactionary populations on the planet.
>>69928648
I live in Andalucía. PSOE is even more corrupt than PP, and they are fucking irresponsible.
I don't know who should I vote for in the next elections. Voting for C's seems like the most reasonable option because Falange or DN would be like throwing my vote to a bin...
>>69929925
What about the non-jews? I would like to see their share. This pic alone is meaningless.
>>69929762
From my view it’s not so much a matter of the perception of others but, at first glance at least, a moral duty. If there’s people who may be killed for their political or religious beliefs requesting asylum, then why should they be denied? All that being said, it seems like this is more of an issue of people from third world countries exploiting the willingness of Europe to help with the intention of undermining European democracy in favor of sharia law and “breeding Europeans out.” It is basic human compassion answered with ulterior motives. While I’m sure that many of the leftist politicians are allowing this to happen in order to be seen as selfless white knights, I don’t think that the general population on the left shares this motivation.
>>69928367
With all first world nations swimming in debt, why on earth would you trust government handling even more money?
Do you not see how our elitists keep spending other people's money, with nothing to show for it?
It is conservative economic philosophies that made us the most rich nation in history, it is progressive economic beliefs that are now taking us backwards.
>>69928367
Here's the real red pill: people aren't equal, the system isn't fair, honesty gets punished and cheaters and liars win. The more you get the government involved, the more each of these injustices increase in scope.
There's never been a case in human history where big, powerful centralized government = increased general human welfare. It's always the big dogs screwing over the little dogs.
>>69930238
OP here: I agree wholeheartedly, though I'm not sure that virtue signalling is the primary motivation.
>>69930238
I don't think they drive down wages but I agree with you on cultural grounds. They will destroy liberal democracy if this goes on like this. In general, I'm open to immigration, but this is too much and these people are too different.
>>69928367
HAVE
YOU
READ
THE
STICKY?
>>69930238
I don't think they drive down wages. I agree with you on cultural grounds, though. In general, I'm open to immigration but they are too much and too different.
>>69930895
fuck, double post.
>>69928367
A proletarian dictatorship is the only solution
>>69930726
Of course they drive down wages. When you flood the market with goods prices will decrease. This is an economic certainty.
>>69929167
Start reading alternative news sources.
Disabuse yourself of the notion that refugees are humble people "no different from any of us, just born in the wrong place" who just want a better life.
If you have a country that is an illiberal shit-hole, consider that it's *because* most of the people make it that way. And now you're importing people from these countries. Europe isn't going to civilize them to modern cosmopolitan values.
Look into Zimbabwe and Rhodesia's history. Do the same with South Africa.
>>69930563
Because it's too dangerous to allow an Islamic fifth-column into Western society. When you do this and they inevitably engage in terrorism, it only feeds the rise of Fascism, as we see in Europe today.
Though the migrants fleeing the Middle East are fleeing from some combination of capitalist exploitation and Western aggression, they in general won't be allies of the left - they turn to radical Islam instead.
>>69930726
They do drive down wages.
>>69930717
For liberals it's always about virtue signaling. The bourgeoise profits off of the immigrants, and looks good to the liberal voter base, who will elect politicians that serve their interests. You can see this play out in the Democratic party in the US. Despite illegal Lations driving down wages, many corporations save a lot of money employing them, liberals get to feel good about importing them and vote Democrat, and the Democrats enact policies that help the corporations.
>>69930004
This is the the sort of reply I was looking for. Thank you!
Stefan Molyneux has said that welfare works in a homogeneous society where members of that society can "shame" those who collect welfare. I know that my parents would rather starve than collect welfare, because they were taught that it's a shameful thing to do, reserved only for the true dregs of society.
In a multicultural society, groups segregate themselves and form pockets. Many of these groups have no problem collecting welfare because they view it as taking from others outside their own group, so there is no way these people can be "shamed" by society. To them, it's just getting back at society, or they feel "entitled" to that welfare money.
>>69928367
Don't ask for redpilling, especially from /pol/.
Most people on here are 40+ year old neckbeards living in isolation from society blaming the fact that they can't be bothered to get a 9-5 job on dem durty immigrunts.
>>69928367
The leftist economic policies that you mention only work if everyone pays into the system. Otherwise it is a parasitic relationship with people whom are incentivized not to succeed voting for politicians who will give them more welfare, when there is more welfare more poor people move in thus helping leftist politicians stay in power. to pay for the programs and stay in power the politicians will steal from the rich whom will eventually either become poor or move elsewhere eroding the tax base and forcing politicians to raise taxes further, again adding to the feedback cycle.
If you want a society in which the government helps people you need to have everyone in said society commited to the general welfare.
That requires nationalism, a fair tax system, division of power between democratic and non democratic branches of government, government spending that doesnt go beyond its means, a competitive free market to keep the economy efficient and innovative, and other things
>>69931308
>taking stefan molyneux seriously
>>69931308
Actually, it's just low-IQ Africans and Arabs behaving in the same way as they did in their home countries. You can't import low-IQ violent populations into a Western country and expect anything good to come of it.
>>69931626
not an argument
>>69931626
That doesn't invalidate the point he made.
>>69928367
You are missing they want either war or ethnic cleansing of the whites. So we can expect the nationalism and extreme right rising or Europe being islamized, sharia law, and all that. Either way the left will lose.
>>69931287
As a general suggestion you really should read The Law by Bastiat.
It isn't that long and is also in audio book format free on YouTube
>>69931322
/pol/ is the ultimate red pill desu
>>69930563
the leftists are concerning themselves with the parts of the problem they want to see, the asylum seekers. If they truely cared about the people in Europe AND the refugees they would go for the root of the problem. The Syrian Civil War. If that doesnt end, neither will this crisis. Ground troops are needed to bring peace to Syria, the countries of Syria and Iraq need to be divided by sectarian and ethnic lines.
This is a bloody afair but its necessary. Do what is good for Europe and the Middle east in the long term
>>69931845
I'll go rub his bald head for luck then.
>>69931845
No just the fact that he himself demonstrated using freely available government data. that these welfare policies were failing before "muh shit skin leechers" due to creating a leech class almost immediately that has never existed in these nations before does
>>69932037
Turkey and Saudi Arabia need to die, basically. Those two countries are two of the biggest blights on the world.
>>69931195
You guys all seem to be too sure of yourselves. That is true only assuming it does not change anything in other markets. Partial equilibrium analysis often fails its predictions pretty badly.
And there isn't a single labor market. Do you think a well-educated european competes with an illiterate syrian? Even if you compare them with poorly educated europeans, refugees have no chance.
>>69931287
look at my flag OP and believe me that left immigration policy can destroy a stable social-system.
austria took in more than it can bear bc of leftwing pressure. and now we don't know how to handle it. crime rates exploded (2/3 of last year's crime), violent incidents increase, 80% unqualified, many without any intention of integration and taking care of themselves. they are a huge burden for our social and welfare-budget.
from about 120.000 -100- visit a univerity. and in the beginning the left told us they were mostly high qualified.
don't believe liberal propaganda when it comes to immigration, cultural or societal policy.
>>69928367
>I’m generally pretty left leaning, particularly on issues regarding the economy, economic disparity, and giving the poor an opportunity to better their condition. That being said, some of what I’m seeing in Europe with the massive drain on the system by blatantly disrespectful and sometimes violent refugees and the nearly complete media blackout of this issue makes me question some of the perspectives I hold. I wonder where else I’ve been misled?
>Redpill me.
The more liberal you get with your ideals the more conservative you become over time. You have abundant wealth you wish to share with other people so you do. Then those people become dependant on your help. Eventually a lot of people are dependant on your help because they play ob the fact that you are a charitable person. Then you disperse your own wealth so much you have less than what you give to others. Your self preservation instincts kick in at some point and you decide enough helping people. I hate the welfare state yet at the same time welfare is a good thing to have to help those who cannot support themselves completely. That doesn't mean you should become dependant on those that help you.
TLDR: This isn't how you help less developed or poor countrys. If you let them drag you down then how are you going to rise them up?
>>69930726
That's true in the short-run. Wages in the long-run are determined by the productivity of the workers.
>>69928367
>THE HOLOCAUST IN 10 SECONDS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUGKmCdAaN4
>THE HOLOCAUST IN 20 SECONDS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGwn5R1PC9Q
>MORE EYE WITNESS TESTIMONIES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftoAnQV-9-4
>THE LAST DAYS OF THE BIG LIE: SPIELBERG'S HOAX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80GgRWuXcO8
>AUSCHWITZ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHzWo79dCHs
>MAJDANEK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHqlf0D9nuQ
>TREBLINKA, BELZEC, SOBIBOR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dxsVSzL4HE
>>69932037
Or we could just not fund these groups to destabilize the region
>the countries of Syria and Iraq need to be divided by sectarian and ethnic lines.
Oded yinon go away
>>69932226
There are still Europeans who could do those jobs, but can't because an illegal is being employed there. It's no different than in America. Some of them also come in and explicitly plan to not work, and just come to collect benefits and spread radical Islam.
>>69932226
Only a moron doesn't realize prices are largely dictated by supply and demand.
>>69932439
Trade is not zero-sum. The effects are at negative in the short-run (in this regard you are right) but insignificant in the long-run.
>>69929762
Basically this in a nutshell.
>>69932612
They are dictated by supply and demand in all markets. You are only looking at the effect in one of them and ignoring that all markets are connected to each other. A change in market A might affect market B, which affects C, which affects again A in an unexpected way. You are only looking at the first step, I'm talking about them all.
>>69932702
Sure, but the other negative effects of importing third-world immigrants from low-IQ countries are still there. There's just no benefit to bringing them in. Europe is literally going to go neo-fascist soon because people are tired of the Islamic immigrant terror attacks.
>>69932165
>he himself demonstrated using freely available government data
I don't listen to him, so I wouldn't know.
>these welfare policies were failing before "muh shit skin leechers" due to creating a leech class almost immediately that has never existed in these nations before does
Yes, that invalidates his point to a certain extent. The only thing I agree with him on is the self-segregating that happens, and the belief of entitlement from these communities. For example, I don't know of any Polish or Portuguese immigrants that receive welfare, whereas the other communities do tend to abuse welfare.
Pic related. That's the Paris area. You can see that the area with the largest welfare expenditure is where these communities live.
>>69932971
On that regard, I agree. And no matter how much "reality is a social construction" bullshit you impose on europeans, they in general will not accept seeing their own cultures threatened. I'm afraid other eurobros will go apeshit because of muslims and it's not going to be pretty.
>>69933795
> I'm afraid other eurobros will go apeshit because of muslims and it's not going to be pretty.
It's already happened in Poland, but
>Slavs
>savages
Pick two
>>69930004
Sweden had state based schooling long before the time that article defines them as socialist.
I'd say that the socialist measure of sponsored and mandatory early education has stood at the core of every successful nation in recent history.
Look at the /pol/ darling Singapore for instance, centrally planned and funded education all the way. They're not afraid in general to use some central socialist planning, minimum wage for certain government sub-contractors, income supplement programs etc.
>>69934103
That doesn't surprise me much. This will be serious only when France, Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, Austria and Sweden start jumping on the bandwagon. These 6 countries are fucked.
>>69932226
They can vote themselves welfare and destroy our economies without taking our jobs.
Not to mention that their behavior is going to gut us through white flight any way.
>>69934513
I suspect the budget deficit limits in the EU are about to see a huge boost and all the nations with low Muslim counts will get lots of money to convince them to spread their legs and get just as much fucked as we are ...
>>69934513
I've started seeing a lot of "You've got to back"/"Say no Islam" type stickers around where I live in Paris.
I live in a heavily Jewish populated area, so that may be why they're there..But they only started appearing about a month or so ago, so It could be that public opinion is starting to change.
>>69936074
Even if parties against immigration win election, how exactly will you do it? No matter what you do, things will probably get violent. Muslims will riot on the streets, people fight back and the police has no idea what to do, unless it is commanded to also be violent against muslims. It is going to be a mess. And once this happens in one country, there will probably a chain reaction.
>>69936074
That has to be a form of insurance fraud in Paris.
>>69937052
Oh yes, if it happens, it will definitely get violent. France has a very, very bloody history of religious differences. (St. Bartholomew's massacre for example). At least, the army is on our side. But what's more important is the fact that the people are starting to show anger towards them, so the tide is changing.
Muslims can riot if they want, most of them are in the segregated ghettos, so like every year, they'll just burn down their own shit.
And yeah, all it's going to take is one country for the rest of the domino's to fall in the rest of the EU..Which I think is good, multiplies our number of chances of population revolt.
>>69937240
How could it be insurance fraud? I don't mean to disagree, I just fail to see how someone could get money out of this.
>>69938312
I associated that with bumper stickers for some reason (which would get your car keyed/torched pretty quickly). Just me being a retard.
>>69938569
Yeah, I thought it wasn't too clear about that when I wrote that.
Nah, they're just stickers (15cm*10cm approx) that are stuck on lampposts, doors, subway entrances, and anywhere else where they'll stick.
>>69928367
>economically left leaning
>nationalist
>national socialist
embrace it OP, fuck neoliberal cucks who are fine with cultural marxism so long as it's companies doing it
>>69929925
Those are some seriously rat faced ugly motherfuckers right there. No one looks 'right' about them, they all look alien and off-putting in some way. Just makes me uncomfortable.
