How can articulate, intelligent and fact-checking people be religious?
There's so many intelligent Bishops, Pastors, etc., it blows my mind that they're religious.
How? I'm not trying to smear religion, but I'm just wondering how people of their intellectual capacity can believe. Shouldn't they be the first ones to doubt?
>not believing in a deity
DEGENERATE TO THE MAX
72 HAIL MARY'S FOR YOU
>>69874808
Every thread that shits on Christians, I post in and defend it. I'm a pretty smart guy. Alot of times the intellectuals are strong believers because they have doubts. They constantly apply tests to their faith and when they can't disprove it or see personal evidence, it cements that belief.
>>69874808
Christianity is actually entirely rational.
>>69874808
It's their job, mate.
>>69874808
It is necessary to believe in some God in order to make sense of the world lad.
>>69874808
Because some people consider more than physical data as evidence.
>>69874938
>>69874950
>>69874986
>>69875047
Why a deity? Knowing history, biology and astrophysics, even at the basic level, how can you not..at the very least..doubt every scripture.
The validity of the text..the logical inconsistencies..the scientifically inconsistent views..etc.
Don't get me wrong. I think Christianity is great for social cohesion purposes, but the belief in miracles, the supernatural, divine beings, etc. is what I don't understand.
>>69874808
People, even intelligent people, are shaped by the environment they're raised in and the people surrounding them as they grow up. Everyone employs some amount of dogma in their thinking and in religious communities otherwise intelligent people grow up with religious dogma as a powerful influence.
>>69874808
You can't rule out creationism, its the big bang THEORY for a reason
>>69874808
>How can articulate, intelligent and fact-checking people be religious?
It's simply a job they chose. If you can memorize and retain facts, and lie with a straight face, it's one of the easiest career paths.
And humans (all of us) are capable of self-delusion. After long enough, they actually believe what they say.
>>69875253
The big bang theory was articulated by a catholic priest.
>>69874808
Have you ever considered the possibility that they're right and you're wrong?
>>69875316
>It's all a conspiracy
Now who's deluded.
>>69875253
stop this meme
>>69874808
They are hypocrites, regardless of what they believe, they want people to have the effect of believing the thing without them knowing every argument to it. From their perspective it's absurd to spend your life questioning The Word if they lead to the same place you were before you questioned it - it takes time away from living a good life.
It explains the kiddy fiddling.
They're a bit intellectually dishonest. Intelligent conservatives don't believe in God, they only aknowledge the social utility of religion.
>>69875360
>>It's all a conspiracy
>Now who's deluded.
did you reply to the wrong post?
I'm not going to argue for hours about religion, if that's your goal. Believe whatever you like. France is a free country (isn't it?).
Bye!
>>69875318
This.
OP, if you actually want an answer to your question, read What's So Great About Christianity by Dinesh "Poo-in-Loo" D'Souza.
>>69875443
>They're a bit intellectually dishonest. Intelligent conservatives can't have different beliefs than me
(you)
>>69874808
OP you fail to realise that religion is just another form of an ideology. When certain ammount of people share the same ideology a form of cabal is formed. There are countless ideologies around the world and each of them has it's own group of followers, be it small or large. Consider religion as just another way to controll en-masses of the weak and ignorant. Being religious doesn't make you unintelligent, its simply that those who are intelligent chose to share the same ideology with a group of people and thus share something in common which is better than sharing nothing. Also the weak cannot fathom the fact that there is nothing after death, only a dark void without consciousness so they need something to cope with the death of their loved ones and get over it quicker.
>>69875253
>it's just a THEORY meme
Creationism doesn't refute the Bing Bang solely, it also refutes evolution, as well as geology.
>>69874808
Because you're an ignorant retard, not them. Is it so hard to believe that somebody can carefully examine the facts and theories, read books by Dawkins as well as apologists, and decide to be Christian? Many of these people have already resolved to themselves things such as the problem of evil.
The problem is most people only know Christianity as a bunch of retarded stories from their childhood. They never bothered to attempt to understand it in adulthood.
>>69875239
look up presuppositionalism.
How can you have any true knowledge without God.Even science doesnt claim Truth you.Knowledge is justified true belief and if No God there is no justification for any belief.
Here's a simple explanation
They are cucks. Cucked since they were little.
They were forced to go to sunday school and church where they get brainwashed all day every day. If they object they get spanked.
Later in life they can't break away from the religion because they're afraid of their parents, they're even afraid of questioning their own beliefs.
When they get old and gross they fuck little kids because of their fucked up upbringing and frustration. Then they kiss refugee feet and lick their toes.
Cucks.
REMINDER: Christianity is cuck: the religion.
>>69875448
>did you reply to the wrong post?
No, I'm replying to the retard making blanket statements because he can't comprehend the concept of faith, therefore they must all be straight-faced liars.
>>69875239
The saying goes something like
The most incomprehensible thing about the Universe, is that the Universe is comprehensible.
Nothing in Materialism, Physicalism, or Naturalism accounts for rationality. You are so confounded that anyone who is "rational" could believe in a deity, but nothing in the worldviews available to you give anyone reason to believe their own thoughts, much less their own observations.
You want to dismiss miracles as a matter of course without having so much as a foundation for why you believe it is rational to do so.>>69875628
The roach actually knows what he's talking about.
>>69874808
How can't intelligent people see that belief that there is no god (or any higher power) works on the same idea that belief there is a god.
Until we can prove it, we can't know the answer.
>>69875239
I think I just told you. They are being paid by people who believe in what they say. They run businesses that are wholly owned by the church. If you work for a mega-corporation you can think whatever you want about it, but you can't break its regulations and publicly smear it, otherwise you get excommunicated.
>>69875594
I'm not saying that being religious makes you unintelligent per se, but why do seemingly intelligent people who rely on so much fact and logic fall into this? It sounds counter intuitive.
>>69875606
It's still inconsistent with science and logic in various ways.
>>69874808
intelligent people know there's limit of what human can do,
stupid people they didn't.
alas, if stupid people know they are stupid, they aren't stupid after all.
>>69874808
It's the ultimate red pill. For many, myself included the stages go look this.
>born religious
>discover rational thought
>bbecome atheist
>explore more philosophy and thought
>become militants atheist edge lord
>settle down a bit and become calm atheist
>observe world, travel, gain experience
>see the value of religion
>deep thought and reflection
>become religious.
It's the ultimate red pill OP. Time to grow out of teenage atheism.
>>69874808
A lot of smart people are also very manipulative. They can be corrupt and perverse but they are intelligent enough to fool people into thinking they are servants of God. Religion is a business and the rules were created by man to control people and make money.
Being a believer and being religious are two different things. If you truly believe in God then all you need is your faith and the bible.
Religion breeds insanity and delusion.
Most of the intelligent religious people have little to no education in hardcore sciences.
If they did, they'd know that evolution is 100% valid, the universe doesn't need a creator, and that there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God.
This knowledge would make everyone an agnostic at the very least.
>>69875770
>It's still inconsistent with science and logic in various ways.
cite examples.
Science is the best explanation for the data. That some would conclude 'the god hypothesis' explains more with less is neither illogical, or unscientific.
>>69875830
This.
I just don't follow a shitty book.
Also, anyone clainmng that THERE IS A GOD, should provide proof or fuck off.
Also, if you think you have a proof that there is a god, you should also provide a proof that yours and yours only god is the right one.
Learn to logic and accept the truth that there is in fact no god or stay plebian sheep forever.
Also, religion exist only to control sheep. If you don't trust me on this then take it from Napoleon. Pic related.
>>69875692
The Universe offers you nothing in the first place. You don't "comprehend the Universe", you just create links between certain phenomenons that occur within it to then create axioms and laws of whatever field you're relating to.
>>69875712
There's an invisible flying turtle with 3 eyes and 45 legs flying around your head. Prove me wrong.
>>69875719
I don't think so. Some maybe, but not most.
>>69875770
fact and logic doesn't really deny religion and as long as we don't figure out the true secrets of the universe, religion will not be debunked and those who share a faith will keep on sharing it and believing invisible magic unicorns forming shit out of clay in the sky.
>>69875830
Essentially my pattern as well.
>>69874808
ideology, is hard to overcome
>>69875969
And you don't think so why exactly?
>>69875830
You're the ultimate retard.
Religion can be a valuable tool. That still doesn't make any of its claims true.
I'm far from an atheist edgelord. I'm really just an agnostic who believes that it's more likely that religions are wrong than they are right.
I don't ridicule it.
>>69875925
Cmon man.
The miracles is one of them.
>>69875969
>you just create links
And these are purely subjective. On what basis do you have to trust not only the links you establish are coherent, nevermind your observations of the phenomena are true?
>>69875830
>see the value of religion
>become religious
why? I see the value too, but there is no reason to be religious
i see the value in lies aswell, but does not mean im going to lie..
>>69874808
i think they see the world in a different way and see the questions science simply cant answer as better than the alternative
>>69874808
Because they aren't psychopaths.
>>69875946
If you can ask proof then there is a god.the foundation of reason and logic.
The statement "God exists" needs no proof
>>69875983
You can't debunk the 1000 other religions either. Why pick one over the other?
>>69876092
It's hard for me to believe that someone would go through a life of lies just for a mere average salary. I don't buy it. Could be true, but I'd be extremely shocked.
We're not talking about homeless people doing anything they need to survive. We're talking about people who could have chosen a regular and better path for themsleves.
>>69875674
>what are heretics?
>>69874808
in my experience they know it's not real but they enjoy the community, culture and morals
>>69876131
>The miracles is one of them.
IF god exists, miracles are neither impossible, nor improbable.
You need to first establish what world you are actually in before dismissing miracles as a matter of course.
"atheism" is not the default position. True agnosticism is. What is the evidence for Theism. What is the evidence for atheism. Which world view explains more with less? Science is pursuing the evidence where it leads, not necessarily having the 100% explanation.
>>69876131
>You're the ultimate retard.
c'mon, man, you wanted a serious discussion and to be inoffensive, then go an insult the intelligence of someone who wasn't personally attacking you. Should we call you out for what you are, or are you seriously going to consider the alternatives?
>>69875903
Religious science fag here. Nothing about evolution disproves God or religion in any way and thinking "the universe doesn't need a creature" only proves you as the uneducated one.
There's a saying in science thst the more you learn the more you realize you know nothing. This is why most actual scientists are agnostics and it's the plebs who like I fucking love science on fb and watch black science man shows but have no actual knowledge of science who are so staunchly atheist.
>>69876132
Religious belief is also based on links. How do you trust that they're coherent and true?
>>69876292
Pseudointellectual nonsense.
Explain what you mean by that, honestly.
>>69875983 religion has been on the decline over the past few years. my local church is empty almost all of the time and i think religion just isnt relevant anymore
>>69874808
http://www.examiner.com/article/of-10-highest-iq-s-on-earth-at-least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians
http://www.randalolson.com/2014/08/24/the-myth-of-the-smarter-atheist/
You're making the mistake of thinking that religion = anti-science, anti-progress, anti-intelligence, and so on. It's not your fault, this is stuff that has been force-fed society for a while.
I'm religious because it matches up with my experiences. I was not raised with religion.
>>69876292
Did you roaches even get elementary schools?
Your statment is such a plebian bullshit that it made me chukle a bit. But your flag excuses you.
>>69876293
true, you can't debunk the other 1000 religions out there, but then you must ask your self, why did the very first religion get forgotten and adapted into other religion forms? Why did the old testament get adapted to a new form?
History repeats it self, with time people will abandon current religions and adapt to new forms of ideologies.
>>69876167
>>69876131
I was merely showing the stages I took, I didn't mean to imply seeing the value of religion is what makes me believe in religion. Only thst those are the stages it happened in.
>>69876430
share on experiences perhaps? im genuinely interested
>>69876293
Take a look at politicians. There government paid salaries aren't going to make them rich. But the perks, the power, and the less scrupulous ways of making money will. Politicians lie and manipulate all the time. It's the same for many high ranking religious figures. They've all got agendas
>>69874808
Sounds like you don't understand that a human is three things. Mind. Body AND SOUL.
There is NO REASON why you cannot be excelling in all three, the problem is your EGO aka MIND stops you from attaining SPIRITUAL strength, even if you DO NOT believe in it, you need to be able to nourish your SOUL to give you that extra spark. DIVINE INSPIRATION.
Tesla was inspired in inventing the microwave from the King James bible.
Weird shit happens when you feed all three aspects of your being.
>>69876386
You already set your own premise that god exists.
I'm telling you that the miracles aren't compatible with science.
The good thing about me is that I give a basis for any insult I give. If I tell you you're stupid, I'll tell you why and I won't leave out a bit of it. Empty ad hominems aren't my style. Rest assured you'll get a reason for everything.
Gaytheists are one of the many wheels of degeneracy that is destroying this world.
>>69874808
>There's so many intelligent Bishops, Pastors, etc., it blows my mind that they're religious.
Have you considered the possibility that they're reiligious because they're smart, and that 14 year-olds posting in YouTube's comments section are not actually the paragons of intelligence that they pretend to be?
>>69876556
There's a few of them but they're very personal to me.
Needless to say I wasn't happy about being wrong to begin with.
A few things can change your outlook on life. Nearly dying in hospital from blood loss is one of them.
>>69874808
By not smudging the line between beliefs and science. You can believe for example to the raptor jesus and that people can be cured from various diseases by miracle. And latter is even plausible. When doctor tells you that you will never walk and you come walking to his office year later to flip a finger.
>>69876463
>>69876397
Your worldview must have a foundation for why you trust reason and logic.
If you are religious God made the world so it is reasonable world and since God doesnt trick anyone we can trust our senses and science.If not, then why do you believe you have any true knowledge?you can be a brain in a vat or tricked by some higher entity.
So an atheist must believe he can have truth even though he could be wrong about everything.And hence he knows nothing he only have guesses.
>>69876486
Well ou can pretty easily debunk the all... but it is actually vice-versa - they have to proove themselves. And since not a single one of those thousand religions can provide a proof for they case (or - they all claim that theirs is the right one but the other is false with basically same arguments) it is safe to discard them all.
Imagine it as a murder case, where groups of people provide shaky proof that their "man" is the murderer. Each time different. But the murderer can be only one and you actually need a solid proof to say who he is. In that scenario, you can safely discard all the claimants and seek the truth elsewhere.
>>69876389
Agnostic and Atheist are not mutually exclusive. Scientists are generally agnostic atheists. You're trying to use the term agnostic to mean that they they don't reject the ideas of religions. An agnostic atheist is one that rejects religion because they provide absolutely no proof or evidence of their claims. A gnostic atheist claims to know religions are false, which is impossible since you can not disprove their claims either. Agnostic atheist is the only sensible position for anyone scientifically minded person.
>>69876551
ah, well then there is no problem
>>69876617
>You already set your own premise that god exists.
>I'm telling you that the miracles aren't compatible with science.
Science merely predicts what will happen in the event of a closed system. My premise asserts it isn't a closed system. Science works so long as that outside agent does not act from the outside in. Science does not conflict with god, and given the order of the system is assumed to be of god's design, god does not conflict with the system.
The question is what world do we live in. A truly closed system, that can be fully and truly explained with all of the parts within it, or do we need to look outside the system. The leaning toward multi-verse models by theoretical physicists suggests we need to look outside the system.
>>69876615
This is real wisdom. God can inspire man to do things no king or sultan can. Look at ancient grand cathedrals and their artwork and really think about the fact they were built by mortal men with barely any technology. Religion inspires men in ways you can't "reason" into thrm.
>>69874808
>How can articulate, intelligent and fact-checking people be religious?
Either intelligent in other fields, have a differing epistemilogical system than you, or someone fairly versed in philosophy.
>>69876397
>Religious belief is also based on links. How do you trust that they're coherent and true?
Here's an alternative.
Do you have a mind, or is such a thing merely an emergent concept from the physical/material/natural processes that constitute your biology?
>>69876293
>a regular and better path for themselves
Why didn't you become a billionaire? It's hard for me to believe that someone would go through a life of electrical engineering just for a mere average salary.
And it's not, strictly speaking, a lie at all, as faith is unfalsifiable. They can come up with thousands of justifications and excuses to convince themselves or others, and most of them would probably boil down to "helping people", but in reality they all know it's a load of bull. When you listen to what they say and do it becomes pretty clear that they are actually at best a bunch of heretic swindlers and at worst are codependent on other people's delusions. The book clearly says "sell all that thou hast, and come, follow me", and those robes look like they can fetch quite a price.
>>69876878
God is an imaginary being created in man's mind. Great works are created by great men with incredible creativity. There is no magic involved.
Of course the idea of God is a good way to motivate the uneducated masses to do things. Eternal torment is a good motivator without a doubg
>>69876801
> no god = no objective truth
Jesus fucking christ... Please answer my previous question, did you even got elementary school?
You see, you can believe whatever you want or pray how much you want, you cant walk through wall. So it is safe to assume that the wall objectively exists. It is occams razor - the simplest solution is the right one until proven othervise - so if you think you are brain in a jar, you first have to prove it. If you don't have a proof, then the wall is objective reality and a truth status of god has no effect on this.
tl;dr - objective reality exists regardless of any god. QED.
They're smart enough to see that it gives them social status and power over others
>>69876837
>Agnostic atheist is the only sensible position for anyone scientifically minded person.
This statement is false and in itself unscientific, further proving my point. Science and religion are not exclusive and as anons have pointed out all thread, many top scientists are theists.
>there is absolutely no evidence for God
God by definition is a creator and there is creation. I'm not saying it's 100% logical proof or trying to convert you, but saying belief in God is anti evidence is false because the belief in God comes first and foremost from the evidence that universe exists. It's the "default" after viewing the evidence of reality, hence why every culture on earth had some kind of creation story and religion. Atheism is where you are no longer using evidence
>>69876839
What problem?
Can we all agree that
>atheism is poison
>God is a probable hypothesis for the origin of the universe
>no religion has got it 100% right
>>69876131
so your whole thread boils down to
>COME OOOOONNN MAAAAAN
y is this even a thread s*ged
>>69876615
Please prove that there is a soul.
Also, prove that mind is separate entity from body.
protip: you can't
There is no soul and mind = body.
>>69874808
>it blows my mind
because all atheists have 20 points of IQ above average.
>>69877210
>Can we all agree
Mate, you're on a political board.
What kind of answer are you expecting from this?
What created the Universe then?
>>69874808
it's about pussy and power
just like in democracy
>>69877210
I'll agree to this.
>>69877207
When did i ever claim they are exclusive? The scientific process when applied to religion will always give you the same result. You don't believe in things when there is no evidence.
The rest of your post is sophistry at best. Your feelings are not valid as evidence for a claim.
>>69877147
Can you be wrong about this?
Is this true?
On what grounds is it true that "if I cant walk through something it is solid"
You see you havent proved why we should believe in anything.Since you can be wrong about everything.
>>69874808
>intelligent
>fact-checking
>posts bp. williamson
>>69877290
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_RwcGzGurc
>>69877207
there is none,
the only problem is to accept something just because one can see the value of it, despite it not being truth
>>69877147
>you cant walk through wall. So it is safe to assume that the wall objectively exists
Your reason for believing it isn't occurring in a dream state is?
That would certainly be a more simple explanation; that it's all in your head, and dreams/reality are one in the same.
So what standards do you apply to distinguish between the two? Which is real, and which is a figment of your imagination?
But you can't honestly believe this all didn't have an architect? How to we go from a big bang, savage apes, to suddenly shitposting on 4chan?
>>69877290
>6:21am and I can't coherently think of a way to defend substantial forms on the internet
>trying to pull an all-nighter
Just remember that cartesian dualism is a modern invention.
>>69877290
>Please prove that there is a soul.
>Also, prove that mind is separate entity from body.
>protip: you can't
>There is no soul and mind = body.
So you're just a deterministic collection of particles. Here I thought we were having an intelligent discussion between persons, but you're just a machine.
>>69877363
It doesn't give you that result, hence why there's so many religious scientists. The fact we exist is evidence. Something exists, therefore it came from somewhere. That's what it comes down to. If there is creation there is therefore creator. This isn't feelings this is evidence on the most basic scale. Evidence that is much more rational and logical than saying there is no God because literally no reason.
>>69877379
Well, the statement "you can't walk trough the wall" is true. No matter what you say or think about it it is true. You can touch it, you can see the results, you can test it how many times you want. It is true no matter if god exist or not.
Also, consider this: If you are, n fact, a brain in a jar, how do you know that "god" isn't just an illusion implanted in your brain by whomever is operating the jar?
gods a faggot that can or cant exist it doesnt matter either way because hes gay
>>69877463
That's not what I'm doing, did you miss read me? I saw the value of it before I believed it, but I DID NOT believe it because of the value I saw in it. That was the order it happened in but it wasn't due to me seeing it as valuable.
>>69877582
Is this post true?
Could you be wrong about it?
Read presuppositionalism and foundationalism
>>69877564
I'm not going to entertain your sophistry. It's pretty obvious you know little of science.
People will believe what they want to believe
/thread
Anyone else notice that atheist nations are the most cucked in the world?
The more a nation becomes secular and atheist the more they ironically love Islam.
>>69877487
Then god is also just in your head and you have no reason to believe that god is true.
Also, reality of the wall is a much simpler explanation then brain in a jar or similar scenarios. How would you even explain that your whole life is actually a dream? Or even better, how could you prove that it is true?
>>69877544
Well, we are both pretty advanced biological machines.
Also, please provide any of the proofs I ws asking for. You know how it works - no proof = false.
You should read some Kierkegaard for a start
>>69877693
>I'm not going to argue with you anymore because you keep making a point I've dodged 3 times already and haven't countered
Nice
>>69877582
>Also, consider this: If you are, n fact, a brain in a jar, how do you know that "god" isn't just an illusion implanted in your brain by whomever is operating the jar?
You're presupposing an intelligence outside the system. Your defeater only supports the notion there is a god.
>>69877064
Being a vicar is hard work and pays very little. An intelligent and hard working person could easily earn 2-4 times as much in a different job.
>>69877290
>>69877652
i know dude, thats why i said there is no problem
you simply asked me what problem, so i anwser which problem i meant
i didnt imply that you had that problem.
>>69877894
Dude I know we've had our problems but I think we should be friends
>>69877794
>Then god is also just in your head and you have no reason to believe that god is true.
I am not eternal. I can safely conclude something instantiated my existence, a creator. If I am created, that entity is intentional, intelligent. I am right in supposing I might be endowed with similar intelligence. I could be wrong, but at least there is a basis for moving forward.
Therefore: I can safely presuppose solipsism is false, and explain my rationality simultaneously. You have yet to explain your reason for believing anything outside the self, the mind, nevermind your rationality. Please do.
>>69877665
Please, either provide proof that there is a god or provide proof that we are all brain in the jars.
If you can't do any of these, I will stick to believing my eyes, thank you. Also, I would strongly recommend you to do the same.
What you might also do is to pray really hard to god to let you pass the wall. You can easily test your theory like this and you will see the mistake in your reasoning (if there was any reasoning to begin with since it seems to me like you are just spewing phrases you have learned in your religon school)
>>69877755
did you notied that christianity is in fact cuck: the religion? Josheph was actually the original cuck and jesus is the original commie, hippie and archetypical leftist.
>>69877794
>Well, we are both pretty advanced biological machines.
Correct! We are indeed marvels... IF we were intentionally designed.
A machine made to accomplish nothing, but mere chance confers the machine no reason to presume anything more than it "is", not that it is capable of rational thought.
>>69874808
If they aren't molesting kids, what do Catholic Priests have to do all day except read books?
All the Priests I've had to deal with have been friendly, intelligent and good for conversation.
They don't push their shit and they don't act like fuck heads if you don't buy what their selling. Like Anti-Mormons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vopY_wz_WM
Everyone loves Fateher Bob, even the Jews.
>>69877863
This is not an argument and it also moves you to a smelly plebian category.
Proof if a base of science which is in fact an only tool that is advancing humanity and civilization. If you have no proofs for your statements, then your statements are false, Deal with it.
>>69874808
as a former atheist i can say that belief in god has nothing to do with being smart , it is more like a veil being lifted i have laughed a thousand times how foolish god and the bible was ,i even used bible pages to roll weed in , i am not laughing about it anymore ..
>>69878114
>in fact an only tool that is advancing humanity and civilization
Off topic slightly since this has nothing to do with whether or not god exists, let's speak only of the implications, but advancing us where? Now that societies are abandoning god on a mass scale and technology is improving the only place we are advancing is to lose all culture and hegemony, extreme degeneracy like transgenered children, and bring conquered by those who did not abandon god. Which part of this "advancement" is good?
>>69877954
Who created your creator?
Also, I thought your soul is in fact eternal.
Also, your parents created you, not some sky daddy.
And, don't forget that evolution is in fact a fact.
My reason for believing that wall actually exists is because I can feel it, see it, hit my head hard to it... It comes fairly natural. I can't be wrong since no one ever provided any proof of the opposite. Hence - objective reality exists. Until you provide a proof that the wall is not an objective reality, this is a much simpler explanation then "god did it" because then you have to explain god.
But you are clearly illogical so my words are wated on you.
>>69877989
Lol you literally don't know anything, this is why the fedora meme started.
>>69877129
I understand your cynicism. But I don't think I know any Christians who believe because of fear of hell (or hope for heaven). They believe because they feel that Jesus teaches the truth, that God is love (1 John 4:16), and that the true meaning of life is to reject our sinful nature and seek after God, and like a loving father (or mother if you like) he will accept us and care for us.
Seek after truth with an open mind and heart and you might be surprised what you find.
>>69878114
What's wrong with the bottom left?
>>69878315
Well, on the other hand religion based states are paradises on earth, right?
Like all the arabic countries...
Lets say advancing to spread life from earth to another planets, because thats the ultimate goal of life - copy and spread far and wide.
See, lets put this the other way - assuming there is a god (since I can entertain a thought without accepting it to be truth) How do you select one from the thousands of gods that people came up with?
>>69878431
She's Muslim
>>69878373
I know that reality exist for example =)
Also, I know that there is no god and by proxy that you are a silly plebian.
>>69876486
its not that hard. islam is chopping of heads should that be the god ?no probably not if god is good.
then there is jesus and there is nothing like jesus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSA3vS3auaE
>>69878352
>But you are clearly illogical so my words are wated on you.
Indeed. Why did you reply? There's literally no reason for me to even address your concerns at this point; your mind is made up, and I am illogical. I agree. If I concede to your world view I am irrational, and so are you. I don't believe you are the product of your own description, therefore I believe you are rational.
We're in a situation where I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you are not willing to do the same.
So, what standard do I have to meet according to your worldview to be "logical"?
>>69878551
Leave it to a leaf.
>>69878505
>Well, on the other hand religion based states are paradises on earth, right?
Yes. Not barbaric Muslim ones because those require beheadings and beatings and the like, Christian ones. A perfect Christian hegemony is literally the ideal society. What is not to like about it? Notice every successful nation came from this? I honestly could not name a better model for a nation and I would be open to hearing it.
>how do you accept one
By observing history and the texts of each Religion and choosing which one appears to make most sense and have the most evidence. Mohammed was historically and undeniably a warlord who was cresting a doctrine to conquer so you can pretty much rule that out. Jews and Christians believed the same God but then jews stopped listening to him so they were no longer chosen, but regardless it is the same god. Christianity for me has the most evidence that it is true.
I also really disagree thst technology is the ultimate goal. Have you ever read a brave new world? This kind of society is ideal from a technological point of view. If there are no parents and people are genetically modified for different qualities and raised by the state to only perform their duties. This would he technological most efficient, yet I do not even think we'd be humans at thst point. I cannot see technology is the goal of life.
Consider this. People who are very intelligent are also more likely to be aware of the void, or the endless possibilities of an after-death experience. No matter what, they arrive at the conclusion that even if there is a heaven of any description or rebirth, they will not retain their memories, and thus cease to exist, even if their spirit lives on.
The universe works in mysterious ways, so even the void may not be what really waits for you. With so many uncertainties around it, would you rather believe in something somewhat cohesive and get on with life, focusing on things that matter, or constantly fret over the idea of death due to the uncertainty around it?
Would it be better to believe that life has no inherent value, could end in a mere second and be of no consequence to your dead self, as you would not experience nothing after it, or to live with the promise of reward for good deeds?
You can't validate anything past death, though.
No matter what your belief, the implications of death are horrible and beyond our comprehension as living beings, since existence is the only thing we know.
>>69874808
But what if religion was made up by intelligent people to control the unintelligent? What if intelligent people keep on joining so they can taste that sweet, sweet power?
>>69878505
>because thats the ultimate goal of life - copy and spread far and wide.
Goals imply purpose. Evolution is explicitly purposeless. No purpose, no goal.
If you see a goal inherent in evolution... well, follow the evidence where it leads.
>>69878505
>since I can entertain a thought without accepting it to be truth
This is a very good quality to have so I'd like to challenge it again with another hypothetical. This is one of the thought processes that lead me out of atheism.
Assume for this scenario thst God is real and he is indeed eternal. This means time is meaningless to him. Now ask, what would it take to prove god? What evidence would you accept? Him revealing himself? Him revealing himself to you personally? To someone you trust? To see it on TV? Think in terms of God now. You create the universe, so what would you do to show your creation you exist? And would you feel the need to continue doing it? Would you reveal yourself to every single person constantly everytime new ones were born? It would be so below you to do thst. It would seem the best way would be to reveal yourself once and then the rest is up to humans. It's stated many times that humans do not all go to heaven, it is in fact a test of who is deserving. He does not want every person to have proof and believe him by default because then there is no test and there is no faith. It makes sense to offer only a short display of proof at one time and then rely on humans to preserve it.
>>69879169
The smartest people are the jews and they hate christfag and christfags hate jews
>>69874808
People often find god when they get older because they want meaning to a life that has none.
>>69874808
Probably confirmation bias. Even intelligent people are weak to their biases, and when you are shackled both economically and socially by your education and work you really have an incentive to look for anything that confirms your belief as well as ignore the stuff that it does not.
The thing about a non-existant God is that it neither harms you nor does you any good. If other people who believe in it has rewarded you for believing it it's pretty inconsequential to just go with the flow.
Also, you don't choose what you believe in. You are either convinced or you are not.
>>69879494
Life itself does have a meaning tho. To thrive and spread itself. Even bacteria does that.
>>69874808
Just because someone is intelligent it doesn't mean that they question everything in their life with an open mind.
There are plenty of incredibly intelligent people that believe fucking any conspiracy theory out there.
>>69879494
Maybe because they learned that life has meaning.
when i was 18 i knew nothing of life compared to now
>>69874808
because they are intelligent, like, rly
A priest proposed the Big Bang Theory
A priest had given way the basic principles of Genetics
and many other more
>>69879596
>Also, you don't choose what you believe in. You are either convinced or you are not.
Then your own position is neither rational or even "your's".
>>69879696
>many other more
Which ones?
>>69879635
I mean something beyond fucking. You have to find a meaning for yourself and let's be honest here, most people will never do anything of value to anyone other than themself or their family.
So god because they aren't smart enough to build a rocket and go to mars.
>>69879494
It is very foolish and arrogant to assume you are more wise than your elders.
Regardless of atheist or Christian or any personal beliefs, there is nothing in life that teaches better than experience, and as such elders should be looked to for wisdom, not condescended
>>69879911
really nigger?
>>69874808
I guess many don't believe, at all, but they see religion as necessary for morals.
>>69879911
Sir Isaac newton was very religious. I'm too lazy to look up the exact quote but it was something a long the lines of "god created the universe in terms of mass, distance and time" or something. He was saying that science only observes the universe and that it observes the tools god used to create.
>>69874808
I am Catholic and have an MS in Chemistry. I don't think I really believe all the magical stuff, but I like the cultural aspect of going to mass. I like to think of being involved in Christianity (inb4 Catholics aren't Christian) helps preserve our culture from the Muslim hoards and Marxist degenerates. I know the US is getting increasingly secular, and I wouldn't mind but I think Christian values the country was founded on will degrade with it. Church attendance is rapidly dropping while pic related is happening. I hope there is a Christian revival soon because we need to remember our roots if we want to stay "American."
Because the creation of the universe is still a mystery and many still believe it to be god's work.
I don't care for any theory or belief, it doesn't matter if I know or don't know, I'm still here and I will be until I die, and only then will I know the truth, and should god judge me, then god will judge me for my true character with no arrogant disbelief or piousness.
>>69874808
They make exceptions plain and simple. When your raised all your life indoctrinated into believing something it is extremely difficult to divorce yourself from it.
They make excuses and explanations to try and justify their beliefs. It is just human nature. There is a lot of cognitive dissonance going on that would take an extreme amount of effort for them to even realize is there.
>>69880182
most scientist where and then the satanic jews fucked everything up
Went from Christian to Nihilist (no atheist because if there is no reason, I ain't gonna say I make one that's retarded), to deist, looked at most popular religions and broke them down to christian again. It's about like a 2 year ride. I just kept following bread crumbs.
https://youtu.be/MbKsIAib5YM
>>69875239
>I think Christianity is great for social cohesion purposes, but the belief in miracles, the supernatural, divine beings, etc. is what I don't understand.
How are you going to convince people to live in a manner that is good for social cohesion without incentive?
>"Hey man, you should stop being a thieving murdering rapist"
>"why?"
>"Because it's bad"
>"lol fuck off"
VS
>"Hey man, you should stop being a thieving murdering rapist"
>"why?"
>"Because there is a magical omnipotent being that watches everything you do and will burn you for eternity if you do things he doesn't like"
>"Oh shit"
>>69878420
In modern 1st world countries most people are religious for one of two reasons
>it is the social norm
>they have serious emotional or mental issues and religion gives them friends and emotional peace
However hell has been used as motivation historical lots of times. Religion was a good way to keep the masses subjugated until they learned to read.
>>69875594
>Also the weak cannot fathom the fact that there is nothing after death, only a dark void without consciousness so they need something to cope with the death of their loved ones and get over it quicker.
It's not the void that troubles me, The potential for nothingness after death troubles me about as much as the nothingness before birth.
No I'm afraid the thing that sticks in my craw is the lack of meaning inherent in a Godless universe. Without God there's no purpose for anything,no greater design, no cosmic justice. It's all just senseless violence for eternity and we may as well just kill ourselves because it all amounts to the same thing in the end.
>>69880230
Sorry my Catholic friend, It's already too late.
http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/
>>69874808
How articulate, intelligent and fact-checking people be infidel?
>>69879914
>meaning for yourself
You just have to accept the fact that you are just one of many and you are nothing special and do your part and make and raise a baby until we come up with some better system.
Resources on this planet are finite and we are competition to one another for those resources but delusional fags think we should just hold hands with one another and be happy. Let's be fucking realistic here,we are in a fucking race till the last man standing and some people are just pussies and cannot accept that fact. You can just accept the bullshit you've been put into or just be a crybaby,put your fingers into your ears and keep shouting that god will fix everything. Reality is cruel.
>>69877800
Very well then. If existence is proof of creation then who created your God and who created what created your God and so on? Or alternatively can you prove anything but your own thoughts exist? You can not
>>69880411
Problem is that the idea does not stand up to scrutiny. It's like telling someone you're going to shoot them and the second they ask you to show your gun you've got nothing to show for it.
If you could actually make a religion that did not crumble under questioning, one that could be proven on the spot then you might get a ball rolling.
>>69879911
Hurr dur religion is holding us back the guy who got us to the moon
OP,
I have a masters in divinity. I am an atheist. It's fairly common among the higher ups in all of the churches. There's more to religion than faith.
>>69880592
Kill yourself infidel.
>>69880489
I'm an atheist, but you are going too far.
The entire universe or existence itself might have no meaning or purpose, we can't say for sure that it does, but it's going too far to state we can be confident we understand existence and its lack of meaning.
Being an atheist means you correctly assess that all religions are complete bullshit, and even the belief in god itself is incredibly dubious. But that's about as far as it goes. We can use philosophy and science to probe and ask more questions, but really the only answer we have thus far is that we don't know. To pretend that we know beyond this is almost as irrational as being religious.
>>69874808
To think we chanced our citculatory or respiratory systems, and it was a fluke of matter exploding just isn't enough for me. There must be a grand design or something else out there. I even accept Ayy Lmaos
>>69880576
People were fucking dumb when religion was first invented, and we rely on people being indoctrinated into it from children these days.
>>69876801
retarded corruption of descartes' argument.
you know that you personally exist, and that's all you know. so what? it doesn't stop us from functioning
"I'm scared that I may be wrong about everything except the fact that some thinking thing that is me exists" does not lead to "god exists" and it certainly doesn't lead to "god exists and this book tells us all about what he wants for us and the world"
though saying this to you won't change anything. personally, I believe that most theists are unfixable at a genetic level. you're able to otherwise be perfectly intelligent but you just have this one inbuilt retardation, just like the majority of the human race has the inbuilt retardation of wanting to do all sorts of instinctual things even though in the end they have no benefit for the individual, only the individual's genes
it just "makes sense" to you that god exists and nothing will ever change that, all arguments you use are just justifications for feeling that way
>>69880331
great now i have to see flews atheist debates does he debunk him self
>>69880692
explain what it would even mean for existence to have intrinsic meaning
>>69875830
I don't get this at all. I played Civilization, and religion gave your units bonuses and all. Does that mean I should become religious?
I mean, it was nice as a child to believe in Santa, does that mean I should just start believing in him again?
Like...wtf. I can't just make myself believe shit that is obviously not true. How the hell are you performing those mental gymnastics?
>>69875830
>I pretend to believe in God, because the only way to prevent my daughter from becoming a whore is to teach her that whores go to le bubbling lava hell
I work in a science lab and over 1/2 of the scientists are religious, and around 80% of the scientists with families are religious.
The whole 'only dumb trailer trash are religious' meme is a Jewish trick. If anything from my day to day experience religious people tend to be well employed and married, whereas atheists work retail/fast food and are single.
>>69880789
I can't, but I also can't explain what the big bang was, how space-time can expand, what dark matter and dark energy are, and I can't explain what time is.
Let's not kid ourselves. Being Nihilist is being an edgy faggot. We don't know enough to conclude "oh fuck nothing means anything at all"
And what is consciousness? Yes, some, like Dennet, assert that it's really nothing - just an illusion, but I don't think we can conclude that yet.
>>69880806
what are you 12 or something you dont choose to become religious . you either belief or you dont
>>69880592
>FREE TICKETS TO THE RUSE CRUISE
>>69874808
>free money, free home, free pussies, free little cute boy, treated like a god
who whouldnt?
>>69881022
that's exactly what I said, you illiterate nigger, but thanks for repeating it.
>>69877603
0.5/10
>>69874808
>There's so many intelligent
>There's
Literally makes a basic grammatical error when complaining about "intelligence". Subhuman trash
>>69880806
>>69880894
Pls read >>69876551
>>69878736
Muh nigga
>>69881109
Go fuckyoursel straight to reddit faggot
nobody gives a fuck about your poor life choices here
>>69880566
I said it's evidence. Not proof. I do not claim to have the answer only that "le grisdianidy has no ebidence XDDDD" is retarded since existence alone is evidence
>>69881075
>>observe world, travel, gain experience
>>see the value of religion
he does not even say that stupid idiot
>>69881230
Lmao nice dude. Atheists 1 Christ fags 0 am I right?
>>69880489
Agreed
>>69880784
He probably disposed himself in the process, I went a hard tour of this stuff at 16 that was 4 years ago. It's a pretty big ride looking for that stuff.
>>69881285
No it isn't evidence because it only changes the question, it does not answer it
>>69880723
Whether or not God exists is outside the domain of knowledge and will forever be so.
I wouldn't say it is any more of a retardation than any self defined 'meaning of life' that is just as easily scrutinised.
Pulvis et umbra sumus
Intelligence has nothing to do with religion or lack of religion, autism on the other hand..
>>69880990
there being intrinsic meaning to existence is inconceivable on an entirely different level. the whole idea that there could be one just doesn't make sense.
being an existential nihilist is the only position that makes sense, and does not make you an edgy teen faggot. "I wouldn't want to be an edgy teen faggot, so I guess there might be a meaning to life somehow, even though I can't even comprehend how there might be a meaning, let alone what that meaning is" is not an argument. in fact, it strikes me as the same "atheists have such empty lives therefore god exists" argument.
you don't have to be a moral nihilist just because you're an existential one.
>>69881355
No you are wrong. Christ was a Judean ruse to pacify and subdue Rome.
>>69880894
Are you implying that is wrong?
>>69880990
How can anything have meaning if there is nothing to give it meaning?
>>69881425
the problem is that theists don't stop at "god might exist, and I believe he does".
see: islam, christianity, judaism
>>69881507
It's very simple, you either accept Christ and his successors or you're an infidel enemy, end of story.
>>69881583
Well it seems like the logical next step.
If you believed in a god and wanted to know which was right, wouldn't you to break down the religions and decide? Being agnostic is really just I guess laziness.
>>69881444
K
>>69881420
It is indeed evidence. It doesn't change the question. The question is "what evidence is there of a creator" and my evidence is "look at this creation."
Again. I am not claiming that this is proof or that it ends there and can't be expanses on. I admit that it cannot be proven on your terms. Only that saying there's no evidence for God is inherit false since God as a concept is the creator which makes existence itself evidence.
>>69881727
There is no evidence, there is only do you accept Christ as God, Yes or No?
>>69881818
*and his successors traditions as his sole authority*
>>69881695
no, it doesn't make sense. there's no reason to believe any of the religions are right. what would your investigation even be like? none of the religions have any real evidence for their beliefs
at best, you would be looking for a moral system you agree with and that justifies itself well on human terms. and you don't need to tack on god worship to that
>>69878352
>And, don't forget that evolution is in fact a fact.
only microevolution
k tks bai
>>69881870
>le ken ham face
>>69881856
Humans are self interested and false, God provides truth.
>>69874808
>Shouldn't they be the first ones to doubt
Uhm. Preciselly?
"Faith which does not doubt is dead faith."
—Miguel de Unamuno
Bantz aside most lads on /pol/ have been rendered too boorish and callous through Nationalism and continual hate of others to set that aside and really approach the universal with an open heart.
They call well-read and learned religious like those that OP was speaking of clueless and naive when they themselves barely even read let alone seriously explore theology and philosophy. It is blind speculation to them but they disregard it with all the brio and precociousness of children.
It's a shame, really. Most of the anon ITT only pretend to care about theology: they have yet to do and will more than likely never do any serious exploration of it.
>>69881583
What's wrong with that?
Atheists don't stop at 'there is no god' and tend to leap towards building 'utopia' on earth.
See : Communism, Secular Liberalism, hedonism
>>69881727
This is literal sophistry. You have provided no evidence and i feel like you might just be baiting me at this point. I really hope you aren't this delusional friend.
>>69881946
*e universal with an open heart(
This is humanism not Christianity, there is no good except the Truths of God, you do not decide what is good or bad.
>>69874950
>Christianity is actually entirely rational.
>>69880710
so you can not indoctrinate people to not commit crimes without a big bogeyman in the clouds?
>>69880806
You don't have to actually believe in it you faggot.
You just follow it and indoctrinate others.
Religion is not meant for people like YOU, though it does benefit you by proxy.
It's meant for making the less intelligent more moral.
>>69882054
>you do not decide what is good or bad
But apparently you do?
>>69882124
God and his successors traditions do.
>>69881957
"secular liberalism" has atheism packed into it, so that's stupid. it's like saying "atheists don't stop at atheism, they also go swimming, while being atheist"
most atheists are not communists. and most atheists are not hedonists, except as far as you believe all humans are hedonists, or that anyone who doesn't follow your religion is one.
you can be considerate of other people without being a theist. there's no reason to tack on god worship to morality, except for people who will only be moral if you get them to fear a god
>>69881959
I feel you are baiting me friend.
My argument is
>here is a painting so that is evidence of a painter
Your argument is
>That's only proof of a painting not a painter. Also that it implies the painter had its own creator.
You need to reassess what "evidence" means. It does not mean "absolutely undeniable irrefutable physical proof". That does not exist for God, you are correct, but the evidence is life itself.
Keep going back to ad hominem though. It's been your go to this whole thread so far, no reason to quit now.
>>69882054
*free masonry, humanism, and all the other utopian man made morals get you excommunicated*
>>69882054
>This is humanism not Christianity
True, but it was more an indictment of the general attitude of posters here rather than speaking specifically on anything doctrinal. Though I could see how the pic would throw you.
>>69882188
Well then can you please provide evidence that everything that exists must be created and/or have a creator? Evidence based on false assertions is not valid.
>>69882211
You act like a fascist ITT.
>>69881434
Logic has limits, when you try to address things outside of the scope of the knowable then you are basically just working of presuppositions.
In that case any argument that isn't self contradictory makes just about as much sense as the other.
>>69882338
There is none, you either are a servant of God or a servant of the self, this simple.
>>69882341
Because I am a theocratic monarchist.
>>69882379
What's wrong with serving self?
>>69882379
Then you are wrong, plain and simple.
There is no evidence so any scientifically minded person would not blindly believe.
>>69879061
decent post
>>69882379
You have no God you have no truth.
>>69882448
It's not true.
>>69882454
Then you are a servant of your personal interest, you serve falsehoods.
>>69881856
>no reason to believe any religion is right
Not even a belief? I'm mean atheism is a belief (not trying to go into the a " No you" fight). People believe we came from like chemicals from rocks n shit, which became organism ect. Just look into what you believe and see how many cracks it has. Jesus and muhammed were real, does that no hold any evidence to a belief. I assume your atheist, hint of nihilism?
>>69882338
A painting is evidence of a painter. A table is evidence of a carpenter. A child is evidence of a mother. A tree is evidence of a seed. A canyon is evidence of a river. A river is evidence of a glacier.
I'm not sure what you're asking here for honestly. You're asking for evidence that everything must exist because of something else?
>>69874808
>How can articulate, intelligent and fact-checking people be religious?
That's easy:
>Julius Caesar
I thought you had reservations about the gods.
>Gracchus
Privately I believe in none of them - neither do you. Publicly, I believe in them all.
>>69882554
I serve the almighty truth and authority that is above all men and their lies, God.
>>69880531
>>69880230
Does nobody else find this depressing? The older I get the more I appreciate Christians. I was raised Catholic but never got confirmed, and stopped going to Catechism while in high school. I went towards the whole atheist path because it gave me a perceived intellectual high ground. Now that I am pushing 30 I can appreciate that there is an anglo culture, and the blueprint of our beliefs and morality come from Chrisitanity. Even if you don't believe in god going to church and hearing the passages that shaped our beliefs is important. We're under siege and we'll get crushed by Muslims and liberals if we can't unite around a defined set of virtues.
Once you realize that if you believe you are a good person and will go to heaven no matter what, nothing can stop you. Not religion, not atheism, not anything. The only thing structured religion offers at that point is their values, morals, and community. If you want and agree with those things then go for it.
I choose to go to heaven on my own means.
>>69882454
There is no evidence so any scientifically minded person would not blindly believe.
Except for this enormous list. How exactly do you reconcile this in your mind? These people weren't scientific?>>69880074
>>69874808
honestly without god i would be already dead 3 times
i once callapsed in the bathroom cause CO2 streamed out of my gas boiler.and i felt with my whole body over the sink and wrecked it. and a fuckin sharp piece of it failed my heart just for centimeters.. i realized that im close to death and some power manged to lift me up i think that was god. then everything went black and i was in the hospital
>>69882774
t. sociopath
>>69882716
No man can invent morals more good than that of the Lord.
>>69882179
> "secular liberalism" has atheism packed into it
Nuh uh, secularism is not the same as atheism.
>most atheists are not hedonists
Most people are hedonists, atheists included; generally there is little in modern society among atheist circles that runs against that grain (unless you are some weird Greek-Hermit holdout)
>you can be considerate of other people without being a theist
True
>>69874938
>I'm a pretty smart guy.
For you.
>>69882774
This is humanism, your beliefs of good and bad don't mean shit, the only good is serving God and doing as his successors traditions calls for.
>>69882840
Can we see medical records of that?
>>69882887
>Nuh uh, secularism is not the same as atheism.
That's just splitting hairs
but it seems like you mostly agree with me
Nobody that's super intelligent is also religious. The two are incompatible. They're well paid actors of the church that reel in chumps willing to part with money to keep the church industry alive.
>>69882849
whatever you say. I say I am good, my god tells me I am good, therefore am. I will be in heaven at my death.
>>69876131
If you were far from an atheist edgelord you wouldn't go for the low hanging fruit of "there's an invisible magickul turtle flying around ha ha can't prove there isn't".
I've been like you and it's the easiest shit in the world to just attack the values and beliefs of religious people by making references to magical sky fairies. Newsflash though, it's just a mark of a cunt and it adds nothing to any conversation.
>>69882774
There is no way to heaven but through Jesus, it outright states it in the good book.
>>69882689
Evidence that people deemed holy existed =/= evidence for higher spiritual powers. Dont even try to argue that current geological and biological evidence for human and planetary evolution is on the same level as current evidence for higher spiritual powers
>>69882991
ive lost the papers but i can give you a picture of the scar if you want
>>69883017
>>69880074
How do you explain this?
>>69883017
You're a fucking retarded infidel.
