when someone asks you your political beliefs, what do you tell them?
>>69853120
Paleocon
>>69853120
i'm straight
>>69853120
Centre-right
>>69853120
Minarchist Hawk
That I am a fascist.
When they look at me funny I remind them that they asked.
Luckily nobody ever asks.
it's been so long since anyone asked me something personal with any sincerity or genuine interest, so it matters absolutely fuck all what I say
The only logic choice.
That i support Trump. But i don't support his followers. at least not /pol/ i fucking hate you autists
>>69853120
DEUS VULT
>>69853120
I support the green party of canada
libertarian
no one is stupid enough to ask a question like that here outside of a rally
>>69853325
>tfw nobody is genuine, honest, or sincere anymore
>>69853120
I am too autistic to actually comment on political discussions in real life because id rather not talk then get into an argument where id have to talk a lot
I tell my coworkers I'm feeling the bern, but I'm actually a lowkey Trump supporter.
I just have a breakdown about a politician who "touched" me and no one ever asks again
I tell them I'm an anarchist.
I'm not but it's funny to see their reactions.
>>69853120
Here's a piece of wisdom handed down from a long time ago.
"Never discuss politics, religion or money with anyone you don't fully trust, Because you never know who has it and who don't"
>>69853120
"Right leaning" libertarian
but I'm actually a NatSoc
>>69853120
That I'm a member of the Peace & Freedom party. It's the socialist, feminist party of California and yup--that's my party.
>>69853253
This
It gives you plenty of cover, they will just think your political beliefs are boring and not want to talk about it anymore. Also they will fill in the blank of their own head of what makes you "center"-right. They'll think "he's probably in favor of gay marriage and shit but just wants lower taxes"
>>69853433
>anarchist
Lol that's funny.
Usually people who are "anarchists" are 15 year olds.
>conservative
>liberal
>moderate
Those are your three choices, if you respond with anything else you're just being obnoxious
INITIATION
>>69853120
white nationalist
>>69853120
I'd ask them to be more specific. Otherwise I tell them I'm a conservative and/or constitutionalist.
>>69853120
I say I'm conservative, and wait for them to keep the conversation going.
I just tell them I don't understand dick about politics and avoid confrontation and getting ostracized. I go to a hippie liberal animation school in big gay los angeles and networking is a big part of my success in the field.
It blows that I can't be honest because I have everything to lose.
Ireland for Ireland. Brits GTFO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrNSjItTfes
I don't like to label my views, but rather each issue individually
>>69853617
what school you at bro?
>tfw also liberal arts fag at L.A.
>>69853540
I remember when I was an edgy teen drawing "A"'s in a circle on desks and the side of buildings.
>>69853120
I usually say I'm a Conservative
If they inquire more so, I'll say out right I'm a Nationalist Neo-Reactionary. I don't want to seem like an attention seeking autist, but if they seriously want to know, I'll tell them, and I'll gladly argue with them at that point.
>>69853120
I say that I'm not interested in politics so much. It works most of the time.
>>69853120
Nationalist.
>>69853704
...
Desmond?
>>69853120
I say that I'm an American Nationalist.
They inevitably say that Nationalism is racist or xenophobic. But they don't know that I want them to say that.
Then I can explain to them that the American Identity is Civic, not Ethnic. That anyone can be American as long as they are patriotic/love America. And that we should be worried about what is best for Americans as a whole, not individual groups.
>>69853508
Kill yourself
The God's Honest Truth.
>>69853762
I'm an internationalist
white separatist
Libertarian.
>>69853120
couldn't give a fuck
>>69853703
>>69853617
sup fags. gotta say I'm glad to see more and more socalites on here
>>69853120
>hey anon what do you believe politically
>meh, nationalist and populist. But I've got some pretty extreme views
>mfw
>>69853774
Witnessed
>>69853120
anarcho-communist
People I associate with don't have to ask me since I always show my power level. 99% of my co-workers are on the same page as I am. My family also thinks the same as I do.
>>69853774
No it's Bob in Toronto
>I'm not telling you shit you dirty kike plant
>you can't handle the truth
Centrist. Everyone knows my political views and everyone asks me for them and what I believe because I study political science and I'm a debater. I've converted many sjws to reason and will continue it.
>>69853843
found the commie.
i politically identify as christian tribal anarchist my pronouns are me he and him.
I go on a rant about eugenics.
>>69853703
gnomon school of visual effects
FREE STUFF
>>69853120
That my beliefs transcend feeble minded political sides that are the same as religion.
>>69853120
FUCK MY DIRTY SHIT HOLE: THE MOVIE
>>69853120
The truth, libertarian.
>>69854054
Sounds like something a complete loser outcast would say.
>>69854029
I see, I'm a USC fag
>>69853867
there are a lot of us here, and many seem to be fellow trump bros
>>69853120
Nobody asks.
I would probably say "conservative" if they did though.
>>69853120
>silently stare at them until they realize im not going to answer and either skurry away or ask in a shrill voice if i've heard them
I'm an American nationalist and also a right-wing populist.
I tell them I'm slightly right of center, but that I agree with paleoconservatives on a lot of issues.
If they ask what issues, I say being against the Iraq war and immigration.
>>69854183
>Austrian Economics addresses manipulation of volume as the cause of the boom/bust cycle. But blames the State for this, instead of the Money Power. Ignores the wealth transfer from poor to rich through interest and tries to explain it away as a normal free market price for money.
>>Government is the main problem
>Austrian Economics is also incredibly ‘naive’ when it comes to private interests controlling markets. Austrian Economics will always explain Governments shouldn’t mess with the economy, while ignoring the monopolistic inclination of Capital.
https://recoveringaustrians.wordpress.com/deconstructing-austrian-economics/
https://recoveringaustrians.wordpress.com/top-ten-austrian-economic-lies-and-mistakes/
I just say republican, or that I hate politics. Both are sorta true.
>>69854218
USC is breddy gud. I was looking into them too but I didn't want to wait two years through the application process and I've been in and out so many shitty colleges that I don't even know what my GPA is. Gnomon doesn't give any fucks about the B you got in psych 101. They just want to know if you can draw and they let me know a week after I applied.
>>69854401
WOULD LLLOOOVVVEEE TO SUCK HER TITS, CLIT, CUNT AND ASS
>>69854712
>paleocon
REV UP THOSE WATER FILTERS. SUPER MALE VITALITY BACK IN STOCK FOR A LIMITED TIME. 9/11 WAS DONE BY REPTILIANS
>>69853120
Traditionalist
>>69853120
I say national socialist. 9/10 times they just think I'm socialist. The few who recognize what national socialism is usually are fine with national socialism already. To change it up I sometimes tell conservatives I'm a fascist, then make them feel bad for being so liberal. Favorite way to fuck with conservatives. When I'm really, really bored I pretend to a Bolshevik around progressives, and make them feel bad for being so conservative.
I've only ever functionally worked out as a Nietzschean, but there are a lot of inspirational thinkers throughout the right. I'm agnostic that fascism can work as a means to fight globalist ideologues like neoliberals and neocons, progs, etc. But I would become a fascist if it were a viable movement.
>>69853120
center-right
>tfw it's not true
>>69853120
>Libertarian
It's like telling someone your favorite movie is Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, they understand that you know a lot about it, and they don't quite agree, but they don't wanna hear about it and don't dislike you for it
>I believe agriculture was the worst mistake humans ever made as a species and that society is a cul-de-sac back to a desolate hunter-gatherer existence
Hitler minus the gun control and feminism.
>>69857573
Because they know you're autistic >>69854720
>>69853120
Can anyone explain to me what marxism is and what a marxist society would look like? Try as I might to research it, all I get is "workers own the means of production" bullshit over and over again with not much added onto it. What does that look like?
>>69853120
The game is rigged
>>69853405
>implying they ever were
I tell them I'm sort of a libertarian/constitutionalist mix. Dead center economically.
Nihilist ;^)
No one I know is so rude
>>69853120
Lol, I love David Cross. I love Arrested Development too. I saw him do stand up on my birthday. He and I took tequila birthday shots together and gave me a beer too. Real nice/cool guy.
>>69853120
How much time you got buddy?
>>69853120
FULLCOMMUNISM
i say i don't really care. i'll tend to talk about issues rather than broad ideas if anything
>>69857862
Why don't you try actually reading Marx you dingy.
>>69857862
Fucking canada. How can people even discuss on pol without knowing all the terms
>>69853120
I am the gnostic luciferian autocrat keeping you down.
>>69854054
are you a wizard?
>>69853546
please kys
>>69858302
tumblrina spotted
>>69857862
Marxism is a philosophy based around the ideal of the working class being the only class in society, for a good idea of what marxism looks like in progress I have added a picture. Note the lack of any remaining white people, and everyone starving to death naked in the open.
>>69858561
Just take one of everything above the sink and listen to witch house until you come down.
>>69853120
i believe that if you arent infringing on anyone elses rights or property, you should be free to do whatever you like
i also believe that everyone should be judged solely on the content of their character
if you put it that way, everyone agrees with libertarianism, even though they really dont
>>69857573
I've told people my favorite movie is star wars bc I didn't want to talk about it or have to explain anything.
>>69858634
>implying there are women on the internet
>not knowing the difference between SJW bourgeois liberalism and socialism
>reactionary mythology is mythological
>>69853120
Libertarian.
Then we have a normal politically themed conversation like two normal fucking adults.
>>69858942
If reactionary mythology isn't accurate to reality how come there is no such thing as a successful communist state anywhere ever?
>>69858751
what the fuck is piss pill and why do we keep needing more pills, jesus christ.
>>69853120
I don't have political ''beliefs'', only political knowledge
"Alt Right"
>>69853120
National Socialist.
Christian Conservative. Literally everyone around me doesn't give a shit. Even the sjw's and professors at my college which kind of dissapoints me in a way.
Tom Bombadil
>>69859108
There's no such thing as a communist state anywhere. Look up the definition - communism cannot be an authoritarian dictatorship with a centrally-planned economy. Communism is actually the opposite of that: a decentralized worker-owned economy in a stateless society. "Actually existing communist states" are actually just forms of state capitalism.
Next you'll refuse to accept the actual definition of communism given by actual socialist intellectuals and demand that we argue about the strawman version of socialism, which is just the Satan of American theological capitalism.
>>69859581
Okay, whatever fag.
>>69853120
Libertarian
>>69859170
>white pill detected
>>69859314
http://ropeculture.org/2015/12/28/why-the-alt-right-is-gay/
>>69859641
Yep, you'll always refuse to learn, no matter what. I wouldn't even mind if you disagreed with socialism after at least learning about it. It would be nice to hear an intelligent critique from a pro-capitalist American one day. But 99% of Americans seem absolutely resistant to class consciousness. Capitalism is your religion, and "you don't know economics" is your version of "read the Bible".
>>69859754
Did I hurt your precious fee fees by not being intimately familiar with yellow pill as a meme? I may be a dick, but it's only because you get a little smug when you know all the answers and rightfully so.
>>69860036
I actually do know about it, that is why I disagree, you're the one who seems to only have a working knowledge of the theory rather than the historical practice, fag.
>>69859108
Careful, the guy might have to try and make something up now that you gave him a clear cut question that only has one answer (protip: the answer is communism has never worked).
>>69853120
I just say I vote for the Liberal Party (centre-right)
Some of my friends think I'm a Nazi though
>>69860257
oh I know, and he did.
>>69859581
>>69859581
>Capitalist technology is bad and only hurts workers and makes them compete more
>Communist technology is good and only alleviates work for people
Literal dogshit picture you have their m8
>>69853120
I triggered a bunch of white law students when I admitted support for Trump. It was actually shocking that the memes are true.
>>69860070
Take more pills. It's the only way
>>69860128
>rather than the historical practice
Yep, here you go. If we continue this discussion you will show that my prediction was correct. All you can do is attack strawman socialism; you're unable to critique the aims and ideals of socialism.
It doesn't matter, I guess. America's chronic labor shortage (which ended in the 70's), access to abundant resources, and economic pre-eminence were the unique factors that allowed capitalism to survive for far longer than Marx predicted. But that's over now, and Americans are starting to feel the pain of real capitalism. It remains to be seen whether you can break out of your mythological fantasyland and see why your standard of living is actually disappearing or if you will succumb to the insanity of militant ultra-nationalist fascism. Your religious commitment to capitalism doesn't give me much hope.
>I actually do know about it, that is why I disagree
You don't appear to have any reasons at all.
I tell them whatever they want to hear
>>69860566
"Blah blah blah I am a communist faggot." - you
>>69853120
>libertarian
>radical
>theistic satanist
>>69860544
Yeah right, like if the spectrum was binary. It's more like colors you deepshit. A triangle
>>69860438
Would you rather make money for someone else, or work for a company you are a partial owner of?
Do you work harder, or lesser when you get offered stock options?
>>69853120
That I'm a cultural conservative that desires an aristocratic republic to replace the united states.
>>69860574
well played m8
>>69853120
Im a member of the trumphenriech
>>69860702
Yeah right, youre on the spectrum and nonbinary. It's more like surrender you shit. A frog
>>69860859
fucking mountain dew all over my keyboard from laughing while drinking, thanks dick.
>>69860438
Do you see why? Because workers in capitalism do not own the products of their labor; they are merely paid as little as the market will allow. Increased productivity creates unemployment (look around, don't just give me the old "jobs get magically created") and there is a natural antagonism between technology and labor in the capitalist system. Look how worried people are getting about the future of automation. And look how absurd and wasteful the capitalist system is - with higher productivity people are being forced to work harder and for longer hours - how does that make any sense at all?
On the other hand, socialism means that the people control the economy and it is used for their benefit - to meet their needs and build a better world in the long run. Technology is used to reduce the number of necessary working hours, but this will have no effect on the use of that technology to meet their material needs. Technology does what it's supposed to do - give us more free time to develop ourselves and live better lives.
Technology isn't different under socialism. The difference is that technology is used for the benefit of the people instead of to extract profit more efficiently. Socialism will lead to the intelligent use of technology and eliminate capitalism's antagonism between people and technological progress.
>>69860438
assuming the workers dont run the place into the ground... I definitely wouldn't trust any coworkers I would have to be in charge or I wouldn't trust putting anything into it.
Imagine if McDonalds was run by its workers... or Walmart.
>>69860703
Exactly.
You work harder when you reap the rewards of your labor. Glad we agree.
>>69860574
This.
Unless they're open to rational thinking, bypass the issue and get what you need out of the situation.
>>69853120
Trouth
>>69853617
What if everyone is a conservative but they're just too afraid to admit it? Liberalism is just an act everyone puts on out of fear of being outed and ostracized.
>>69853120
"I am socialist and nationalist"
>>69853120
Ancap. Debate me.
Libertarian. If they ask me any further, I just say anarcho capitalist.
I don't want to scream "ANARCHY REEEE" right off the bat, but if they ask I will tell.
>>69860645
>>69860999
Talk to any person that lived under socialism you retarded fuck. Just taste how miserable life can be under such regimes because those are regimes, there are no socialism without control and suppression of freedom
>>69861068
See that is short sighted, you can tell them whatever they want to hear, but in general if you disagree with them it's better to tear them down and publically humiliate them for their beliefs while keeping yours close to the vest.
>>69853120
I try to change the subject because politics are not polite conversation.
[spoiler]I'm a moderate liberal[/spoiler]
>>69861131
>Being that cuck
>>69860635
Well, I couldn't possibly ask for a better demonstration of the intellectual merits of your worldview, could I? Thank you very much.
>>69861023
wew theres a lot of typos in that wall of words
>>69861160
>Talk to any person that lived under socialism you retarded fuck.
Like who?
>>69853120
>i'm for whoever is telling the truth
nazi
>>69861196
Your world view already debunked itself 120 million times over last century, it doesn't require entertaining or debate anymore, you failed, move the fuck on son.
My politics are that if my family had not drilled for oil for decades, I would be putting necks in guillotines.
But, I'm doing great. And my kids will do great, and so will their kids.
So if people are content to let the deck keep getting stacked higher and higher against them, they fucking deserve it, and I don't care.
I have no respect for anybody who is politically aware and is neither well off, nor actively putting bullets into brainstems.
I don't give a fuck about listening to some retard who lives paycheque to paycheque when he feels like regurgitating the propaganda that's designed to keep him where he is.
white nationalist anarcho argarian neo capitalist argo egro nu-techno-democratarian
>>69861221
Talk to a Pole older than 25 years old
>>69861328
How many times have they just laughed nervously and said "oh ehehe cool." before changing the subject, and do you reward yourself with a cookie when they do, because you should.
antidisestablishmentarian
>>69861266
You see? I told you >>69859581
Doesn't it make you consider the weakness of your justifications for your worldview when you can't even confront your ideological opponents honestly? When you have to make up every excuse in the book to avoid confronting actual socialism?
>>69861172
Is there a problem with not saying ancap right away? I would, but people listen more to a Libertarian than the weird, wacky, crank ancap. Mostly so people don't scream "ROOOOAAAADDDSSSS" whenever I say something
If random I just say conservative. If pressed I say nationalist/far right.
>>69853120
Politically neutral and indifferent.
>>69861437
Nigga I already told you, you're wrong, get over it, I don't give a shit.
>>69853120
To fuck off
>>69853120
I get super technical. "Lockean-Burkean with a strong libertarian streak who favours free market capitalism." I vote Conservative but I dare not say that in these parts.
>>69861369
Stalinism is not socialism. Do you think the Soviet workers had control of their nation's capital? Do you think the Soviet Union had a democratic form of government? There are important historical reasons why the socialist revolution in Russia failed, but by the time Stalin took over, socialism was a thing of the past. The USSR was, after that point, a state capitalist nation.
"Classical liberal, like our founding fathers pretty much."
>>69861590
You are a faggot ass clown, and I hate you.
>>69861481
Yes, there is a problem. You be a social-democrat, social-liberal, minarchist or ancap and still be libertarian.
I usually just say "I'm on the right" and expound on that if they solicit it
>>69861196
>if you study, you can make a better world for people like that
How exactly would that work? I don't understand, are they implying that going to college means streets don't need to be cleaned?
>.......................
>>69861324
>drilled for oil for decades
Attaboy Jamal
>>69861662
True, it's mostly an insecurity problem on my end desu, I should probably be more descript when talking about political topics.
>>69861590
>muh very specific form of communism won't end in death and endless strife
>>69854054
Spot the neckbeard who's too chicken-shit to pick sides
>>69861512
But how would you possibly know for sure which one of us is wrong? You don't seem to want to know or understand anything, and your reaction to knowledge outside your ideology is to stick your fingers in your ears and shout "you're wrong! you're wrong!".
Exactly how do you think you are different from the religious traditionalist who believed that the world is round or that evolution is heresy because we were all created in seven days?
>>69860999
>>look around, don't just give me the old "jobs get magically created"
>implying new jobs are not constantly being created under capitalism
>implying the consumer tech industry existed 100 years ago
>with higher productivity people are being forced to work harder and for longer hours
Your delusional. Working conditions have drastically improved along with productivity. Instead of miners, farmers and loggers directly using their body for labor they now operate machines.
>On the other hand, socialism means that the people control the economy and it is used for their benefit - to meet their needs and build a better world in the long run.
And do practically nothing as they settle into their complacent lives. There is no reason to invent something, build large commercial buildings or produce something creative as there is no finical incentive in it. Your country will grow complacent and the financially motivated dirty capitalist will leave you behind in technological innovation as they historically always have.
Your the washed out losers of the world and you want to bring everyone down to your level. Socialism always has tendency to become abused and become something akin to Stalinism (hurr durr neva been tried befour).
I ask you, who gets to research things under socialism, who gets to be factory manager and make decisions about how you compete with the dirty capitalist economy next door? What traits qualifies a person to lead under such a system and who decides that?
No I reject your bullshit, found your own nation is you wish to live under such an oppressive and shitty form of government, but leave me and mine alone.
>>69861778
It's not that I don't want to know or understand anything, I know and understand everything you're saying, I understand and know that it is wrong.
>>69861590
So it was socialism just not democratic? Not your flavor of socialism. The state made a profit instead of diverting 100% back to the worker. It's as if you've skipped the most important chapter in arguing about communism for dummies. You're supposed to be happy to make money. After all, you'll be a card carrying party member, right smart guy?
>>69853342
>I'm glad you asked! As a matter of fact I'm a TRUE CONSERVATIVE.
>>69861747
I didn't define communism, Marx did. And no country on Earth has ever met that definition. They can call themselves communist, democratic, or republics, but it doesn't make it true. I can call myself the Emperor of China but I'm pretty sure there won't be any crowns arriving in the mail anytime soon.
I say National Socialist but if I feel comfortable around them, I just tell them I'm fascist.
>>69853930
fucking love garfield kart
>>69853882
OH GOD
>>69855082
h-hatesuck...
>>69861915
Lmao, stupid nazi does not even know the difference between fascists and nazis.
>>69853120
Economically left and socially right
Couldn't shitpost on 4chan under most regimes.
Fuck yeah Republic, democracy and free markets!
>>69853120
Folkhemssosse
What people fail to realise is that it means nationalist with socialist tendencies (or socialist with nationalist tendencies), or, gas the downsies, homosex, disabled, sapmi, while they go "so... social democrat right?"
>>69861887
if the attempted application of a political philosophy always ends in the same outcome, then maybe you are dumb and gay for asserting that anything else will come of it. For all that you support the philosophy behind it, the actual practice is uniformly implemented the same way and thus it can be accurately said that communism is a fuck up ideology for people who don't know their history or don't understand patterns of human behavior well enough to understand that what has come before will happen again under the same system, you are crazy, you want to keep running your failed ideological experiment despite already having a sound conceptualization of the inevitable consequences of it.
I tell them that it doesnt matter, big business and politicians own everything. Then I laugh slyly as they tell me how important their vote is.
>>69861869
>So it was socialism just not democratic?
No, it wasn't socialism at all, clearly. Things aren't of a kind because people say so regardless of facts; they are in a category because they meet a certain agreed-upon definition. The Soviet Union and all subsequent "communist" nations failed to meet any of the characteristics required by that definition. There are good historical reasons why this happened if you care to learn them, but nevertheless all of them have some form of state capitalism. They are not communist, socialist, democratic, or republics.
You do realize that "communist country" is an impossibility just on its own, right? A communist society has no state.
>>69862168
well everyone else agrees stalin was a commie and russia was communist, so where does that leave you cupcake?
>>69853120
I tell them I just blue myself.
Oy vey.
>>69859581
>Capitalism is essentially wasteful; commodities are produced because they can be sold, not because they're needed.
What difference does it make? Is money useless in this scenario?
>>69862074
>if the attempted application of a political philosophy always ends in the same outcome, then maybe you are dumb and gay for asserting that anything else will come of it.
Apply this statement to any other type of human achievement. Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? If we all followed that line of thinking we'd still be living in caves.
The thing about revolutionary ideas is that they usually fail many times before they succeed. And we have very good reasons to think capitalism will inevitably fail, that it poses a grave danger to the future of our civilization, and that socialism offers a much better alternative.
>>69862245
>well everyone else agrees stalin was a commie and russia was communist
Oblivious American consumers obsessed with their material possessions and possessed with a religious faith in capitalism don't technically count as "everyone".
>>69862356
yep, confirmed for dumb and gay. As for things that pose a grave danger to the future of civilization, look up marxism and get back to me. you dumb asshole.
>>69853120
>when someone asks you your political beliefs, what do you tell them?
that i'd rather not talk about it
>>69862168
>No, it wasn't socialism at all, clearly.
Go on
>Things aren't of a kind because people say so regardless of facts; they are in a category because they meet a certain agreed-upon definition.
"""""""""""????????????????????"""""""""""""""""""
>The Soviet Union and all subsequent "communist" nations failed to meet any of the characteristics required by that definition.
>There are good historical reasons why this happened if you care to learn them, but nevertheless all of them have some form of state capitalism.
>They are not communist, socialist, democratic, or republics.
state capitalism is the only form of government ever tried? You're losing me quickfast
>You do realize that "communist country" is an impossibility just on its own, right? A communist society has no state.
Wew. What are you trying to tell us? What's the score here, what's next?
i just violently shit all over the floor
Neo-nazi capitalist
>>69862479
So because the agreed upon definition does not match your own, you're just going to go ahead and make up your own definition. Tumblr pls leave.
>>69860566
Look up New Harmony, Indiana, then come back and tell us communism works.
>>69862245
>>69862479
And in any case, truth isn't a majority opinion. In fact it seems rather common for most people in the world to be wrong or ignorant about a vast amount of true knowledge. Our beliefs don't make just automatically make things true.
>>69860566
>militant ultra-nationalist fascism
better than being a red
>>69862616
So originally you said that terms are defined by agreed upon definition, now truth isn't a majority opinion. Tumblr pls go and stay go.
Socialist
>>69861160
For once I am with the Frenchie
"Hitler"
yes, srs
I believe in a strong Memocracy.
>>69862542
I get that this must be confusing to you, but it makes perfect sense if you just think about it.
Here are the definitions of and explanations for capitalism, socialism, and communism. >>69859581
The Soviet Union never achieved socialism at all. They failed when Lenin decided that Russia, coming out of the most oppressive feudal regime in Europe, had no proletariat and that its people were not equipped to take control of the nation's capital. He decided that the state had to become the capitalist in order to industrialize the nation, create the proletariat, and then transition to socialism. However, like all forms of capitalism, it formed a corrupt ruling class that subverted the political aims of the nation (in this case, it was Stalin's state capitalist ruling class of party bureaucrats). That is why the Russian revolution failed to achieve socialism. Maybe it would have been impossible to achieve at that time, but those are the facts.
>state capitalism is the only form of government ever tried?
I never said that; this question makes no sense. We've been through many economic stages: agrarian, feudal, capitalist, and each of these have varying amounts of state and private control of economic matters. The Soviet Union was a state capitalist nation. The United States is primarily private capitalist, with some state control and welfare programs.
>A communist society has no state.
>Wew. What are you trying to tell us?
...the definition of communism?
>>69862356
>The thing about revolutionary ideas is that they usually fail many times before they succeed.
How many times does it need to fail before you admit it's a flawed economic doctrine from the get go? It directly opposes natural human behaviors and has historically leads up to being abused.
>And we have very good reasons to think capitalism will inevitably fail
And yet it continues to function and continues to uplift the lives of BILLIONS of people.
>and that socialism offers a much better alternative.
Yes, of course the socialist thinks so.
>>69863050
Agree with me or shut your cockholster pinko.
>>69862727
Definitions aren't the same as truth. Definitions and concepts are symbols whose relationships we can use to describe true facts about the world.
>>69863133
Hey, asshole, read this, agree, or shut the fuck up, I haven't ready any of your posts since you started blathering on about how russia wasn't communist anyway.
>>69863091
which political system got the first man into space?
Theocratic monarch white nationalist
>>69863200
The Erisians of atlantis.
>>69860999
Please kill yourself faggot. Wasted trips on a dumb-fuck 3edgy5me Socialist
>>69863200
Pre-white people Africa.
>>69863091
>>69863190
I'm sure you haven't. A stubborn, anti-intellectual refusal to learn or to understand anything that threatens your chosen fantasy world are the hallmarks of proto-fascism. But I think it's good for everyone to see that modern capitalism's primary support is nothing but naked religious zealotry.
>>69853120
The truth. I don't go out of the way to tell people my politics, and if other people start talking politics I'll usually just stay out of it. But if someone asks me directly what my views are I won't sugarcoat it.
>>69863355
No no, shut up, or agree with me, those are your options pinko faggot.
>>69863200
Khaganate
>>69863355
Also as an aside I'd rather have a zealous desire for the truth over commie lies than be a gay nigger who wants to die of starvation under a system of non government involving a supposedly voluntary uniting of the worker class that cannot happen because nothing in human nature supports it on any level.
>>69853446
I've always gone with
"If you want to keep friends, never discuss religion or politics."
>>69853120
I'm a libertarian but I'd consider myself more of a republican than a democrat.
If they are confused I just give my stances on issues.
>pro abortion
>pro low taxes
>pro against illegal immigration
>pro guns
>>69853120
No one ever asks that.
>>69863516
If you have friends that can't tolerate others having differing political beliefs, then they're shitty friends.
>>69863587
I ask that, because I don't care about making new friends most of the time, people are, kinda fucking retarded, and it's more enjoyable to make fun of them for their beliefs than make a friend.
Better dead then red
>>69863052
>How many times does it need to fail before you admit it's a flawed economic doctrine from the get go?
No, that conclusion does not follow. That would be an inductive fallacy (I know how much /pol/ loves fallacies!) Certainly there are things that we should learn from every failure, and historical events should be carefully analyzed by every socialist.
>It directly opposes natural human behaviors
Capitalists seem to universally believe that their natures are innately fixed; usually by their animal natures (as there are so many closet Social Darwinists among you). But this is an astonishing claim - "human nature" is not affected by the organization of society itself? When we live in a society based on competition, winner-take-all, and radical individualism, we should not believe that mutually antagonistic, antisocial behaviors are the product of how we are actually living together?
There is something to "human nature", but I disagree that it has anything like the deterministic effect on people's behavior that you seem to claim it does. A person who lives in a cooperative society that provides the means for self-actualization will be well-adjusted and willing to work for the good of others. A person who lives in a dog-eat-dog society of cutthroat capitalist will be a snarling beast. Why should that be surprising?
>>69863803
No, shut the fuck up, I already told you knee grow.
>>69863646
It's a tasteless question. You come off as retarded for asking it. There are better ways to test someone.
>>69863276
>>69863392
>>69863513
Behold the capitalist intellectual in top form. How could any intelligent person question the capitalist status quo after such compelling and well-reasoned arguments?
>>69863851
Taste is unimportant, in honesty, having fun at the expense of the flock is all that truly matters, because those who could be stopped to prevent the further degradation of the west sit in seats of unchallengeable power, and there are so few men remaining to oppose them, that it is better to fall on their most devout followers like rabid dogs and shout them down for your own amusement than it is to believe that there is a point to interacting with them beyond that.
People here don't but if I would be asked I would lie.
I can, honest to god, get fired for having the wrong political opinion because it would "break the workplaces values about tolerance".
>>69863050
>>69859581
>Wages make no sense
>work is a condition you're in
>They failed when Lenin decided that Russia, coming out of the most oppressive feudal regime in Europe, had no proletariat and that its people were not equipped to take control of the nation's capital.
>like all forms of capitalism, it formed a corrupt ruling class that subverted the political aims of the nation (in this case, it was Stalin's state capitalist ruling class of party bureaucrats)
>Maybe it would have been impossible to achieve at that time
You sound like you don't believe in money. Are you fucking brain dead?
"I prefer to stay away from politics as much as I can" has gotten me through dealing with my degenerate ragtag group of a family for aslong as I can remember. They're all fucking drug addled white trash who are are more deplorable than niggers half the time
>>69863895
lol fag I already know you're too far gone to be worth trying to convince, do you know how? You're actually dumb enough to consider communism, even for an instant given it's track record, now kindly fuck off while the real people talk.
Apolitical with an extreme disdain for any and all politically active, then stare them down. Only happened twice, both people got the message and didn't push it further.
If i actually believe the person who is asking me is intellectually honest enough to listen to me despite disagreeing with my points, i'll tell them i'm a Nationalist then we can actually discuss our stances on different points rather than political allegiances.
I just say "classical liberal"
If questioned further I lay the Adam Smith rhetoric real thick and they give up fast because all they've ever read on the subject is history textbooks
Haven't been ostracized by neither the hyper-liberal Canadian community I loved in nor the patriotic reactionary in Russia
I just say "classical liberal"
If questioned further I lay the Adam Smith rhetoric real thick and they give up fast because all they've ever read on the subject is history textbooks
Haven't been ostracized by neither the hyper-liberal Canadian community I loved in nor the patriotic reactionary in Russia
>>69864245
>>69864246
but how do you really feel
>>69864020
I don't know what it means to "not believe in money". I have some in my pocket; clearly it exists. What is it you're asking? Socialists are against wage labor, yes. The important idea is that in socialism, all enterprises and capital are owned by the people and are managed through some implementation of a democratic process (depending on the type of socialism we're talking about, and there are many).
The common factor in socialism is not getting rid of money, though. It's freeing the people from ruling classes by eliminating their power base - the private ownership of capital. From there we give the people the power to use the economy responsibly to benefit themselves and society instead of the capitalists.
Capitalism did have a place in history (even the Communist Manifesto speaks well of capitalism, if you care to read it). It's purpose is industrialization and the development of a nation's capital. But once this is achieved, we must transition to socialism. The only other alternative is the permanent corruption, chaos, and collapse that is an inevitable feature of capitalism. For proof, just look around at our world.
>>69864268
Exactly how I say. I'm a classics liberal, possibly with a few caviats
I tell people I'm voting for Hillary. Makes the Bernouts angry and they usually don't argue over Hillary.
I just side step the question because its not something that would get me any points with the people I work/live.
The single time I "defended" Trump I got hit with "YOUR A FUCKING ILLEGAL MALE" over and over again. Like, end of conversation. No facts.
>>69864347
So you vote for the shop manager? The foreman? Who gets to go off and make their own startup? If they aren't working they own nothing. You already said they won't be paid in wages, but rather, capital? Or the product? Or the fruits of their labour? Which they'll have a fuck of a time selling unless you suggest the entire working class price fixes and sells to a different country. Which doesn't exist? Because communists don't have countries?
>look around
I'm not dead. What the fuck are you on about?
>>69864634
it's okay man, you don't have to try and understand it, communism is not worth understanding, even the guy you're talking to probably grasps this unconsciously but being an edgy teenager who is mad that no one is paying his student loans he'll likely only come to terms with how dumb he's being many years from now if at all.
Left of center, I guess. Strong believer in meritocracy and equal opportunity for all.
>>69864347
It means they don't trust a gram of fancy cotton paper to maintain long term value against the resources and commodities a one hundred dollar bill could be exchanged for today.
>There is no corruption, chaos, or collapse in socialist societies.
Fuck off, you dipshit idealist.
>>69853120
you don't give them an answer
it just leaves you open to being targeted
>>69863803
Human nature is acting competitive and out-gunning/producing/growing your competition. Society only affects human nature so much, you still feel content when you reproduce and anger if someone has wronged you. The 200lb gorillas that make up our societies have hardly changed at all really and all the same needs are still present within them.
I know you don't feel this being a spineless inhuman gomunist bastard.
>as there are so many closet Social Darwinists among you
They literally go hand in hand, how is this surprising to you?
>Yeah I totally tell everyone that I'm literally a fucking nazi
No you don't closeted beta faggots
>>69864634
>So you vote for the shop manager? The foreman?
Yes, managers are just employees, and most socialists want to see rotating duties or elections or some other democratic form. The workers literally run their businesses. Richard Wolff, a marxist economist, has written books on how this would work - Democracy at Work: A Cure for Capitalism is a very good read.
>Who gets to go off and make their own startup?
That's a more interesting question. Socialism does not ban private property or owning the means of individual production; the issue is when a start-up become social capital. That does need to be explained in any implementation of the socialist ideal, and different forms of socialism have different answers. In any case, people in a socialist society work to have a better world and a healthier society in which people have the time to develop their individual talents and cooperate on projects that will move us towards the future, not to accumulate wealth or ever-increasing amounts of luxuries.
>You already said they won't be paid in wages, but rather, capital? Or the product? Or the fruits of their labour?
No, nobody can own capital. That becomes impossible in socialism. People are not "paid", they simply have their needs met through the collective labor of society. The goal of life is not to have more or get more than others; the goal is to have enough to live a good life and to improve the world.
>Which they'll have a fuck of a time selling unless you suggest the entire working class price fixes and sells to a different country.
Most implementations of socialism do not even have markets (although there is something called Market Socialism). In any case, a successful socialist revolution will necessarily be global. Any capitalist nations that still exist will fight a socialist society to the death (did you know that the United States invaded Russia during the Bolshevik revolution, by the way? It's true - look it up!)
>>69865363
You are dumber than a bag of niggers, stop.
>>69865158
Your ideology assumes that human beings will always be mindless animals rationalizing their cruelty, lust for power, and inability to live in a civilization without plundering and burning it through appeals to nature and a farcical parody of the scientific theory of natural selection.
What else needs to be said before consigning it to the proverbial dustbin of history?
>>69853646
>>69853422
my sides
>>69865606
Can you name any example where humans are not mindless animals rationalizing their own cruelty, lust for power, and inability to live in a civilization without plundering and burning it through appeals to nature and a farcical parody of the scientific theory of natural selection? Protip: you can't because no such example exists.
>>69865727
During construction projects.
>>69865606
>Humans have totally evolved past basic animalistic desires
>continue fucking niggers though.
>>69865606
>Your ideology assumes that human beings will always be mindless animals rationalizing their cruelty, lust for power...
When you're starving to death, any means are justified. For gommunism to work you need to remove an essential piece of human nature, egoism, for it to work. It is an inherently inhuman, broken ideology.
>>69853120
Moderate - Centrist
Which is true
>>69865606
>Your ideology assumes that human beings will always be mindless animals rationalizing their cruelty
No, it assumes that humans in the present feel the need to compete and still have the same needs they had a thousand years ago.
You can try and fight this truth but you will constantly push against this or embrace a system that takes advantage of those emotions and re-purposes them for creation. You can fight nature or you can harness it.
Results speak for themselves. As both """pure""" Communism and Capitalism have never been tried, at the very least Capitalism works in some limited capacity.
>>69865363
>Yes, managers are just employees, and most socialists want to see rotating duties or elections or some other democratic form.
Incredible waste of time and money. Not compensating the men with extra responsibility. Pleb/10
>Richard Wolff, a marxist economist
Oxymoron
>A Cure for Capitalism
Don't need one
>The issue is when a start-up become social capital.
Do whatever you want just don't make money?
>people in a socialist society work to have a better world and a healthier society in which people have the time to develop their individual talents and cooperate on projects that will move us towards the future, not to accumulate wealth or ever-increasing amounts of luxuries.
Whole lother of fucking lame
>No, nobody can own capital. That becomes impossible in socialism.
Kek. Explain
>People are not "paid", they simply have their needs met through the collective labor of society. The goal of life is not to have more or get more than others; the goal is to have enough to live a good life and to improve the world.
So absolutely nobody gets finer things? If we can't provide it for 7 billion people nobody gets it?
>Most implementations of socialism do not even have markets (although there is something called Market Socialism).
Wew
>In any case, a successful socialist revolution will necessarily be global.
Nigger you sound like the anti Ted Kaczynski. Good to know i wont have any personal responsibility.
>Any capitalist nations that still exist will fight a socialist society to the death
The capitalists are wrong though right? They either let your citizens starve or waste money trying to rebuild an empire. Catch 22
>>69865849
>When you're starving to death, any means are justified.
Ok, but socialist economies are literally about providing for the material needs of the people. I don't know where that came from. If there's an economic system content to let you starve, it's capitalism. And for that reason (among others) I would argue that capitalism is reinforcing and exaggerating the more brutal side of human nature. What is the ideal capitalist? A sociopath.
>muh human nature
But this has already been addressed. You can't imagine yourself living in a cooperative society because you've grown up in a capitalist society and your nature has been entirely influenced by its economic substructure. The only way for you to become aware of this is to start learning about and understanding class structures and alternatives to the world you live in.
I know it's what pisses a lot of people off, but my political views change every day.
I am probably about as far right as you can imagine, but had you asked me three years ago I would have been a tumblr tier basket case. I'm typically fairly open about my views, and can explain them through various life experience that have caused me to feel that way. (Admittedly my life has had some moments that are foreign to other people, but I try my best to explain it.)
A prime example is my views on abortion.
I used to be extremely pro choice, but there are two distinct events in my mind that caused me to go to the other extreme. The first was when I was actually very young, but it took the second to make me understand.
Growing up we raised southdown sheep. One winter was particularly bad, and the snow drifted over the fence. One of our ewes who was due to lamb in two days got out and was struck by a car. It was obvious that she was going to die, and all I could think of was the babies stuck inside. Clearly they were going to die as well until dad told me over the phone, "you have 15 minuets, cut them out" I had never done anything like that (and years later I learned that he hadn't either) but I put that ewe on the tailgate of the truck, shaved her side and then shot her. I then butchered her all to pieces while dad was on speaker phone trying explain what I should be doing. I ended up pulling two dead lambs out, but the the last one was breathing. I took it in the house and spent the next hour taking care of it, getting colostrum in it, and keeping it warm until it died despite my efforts.
Even after my experience with the lamb I justified it as we currently do were it is only a lamb after x amount of time. This changed when I helped my cousin with a 4H project he was doing where we would crack open an incubating egg every day from day one to hatching. As you looked at the series backwards the was no clear point it stopped being a chick
In short I give them a lecture
>>69853296
>Canadian
not buying it
>>69853120
I say I think Trump is going to get the Republican nomination and is going to wind up winning the presidency and I'd probably vote for trump over Clinton because I just don't trust Hilary Clinton then I lament the fact that Joe Biden didn't run and I say something like he probably would have done much better aginst Trump.
And then they usually say "yeah that's a good point" or "yeah you're right"
And then I change the subject.
Works everytime
I just say "I'm pretty centrist, to be honest". If they want me to elaborate, I tell them that I have views on both sides. Generally my views align with the concept of "small government" and freedom of rights, and I also believe in having a healthy standard of welfare/accessible free healthcare.
I try to avoid speaking socially. While I believe in gay marriage (more the separation of marriage and state though), and general equality, I'm forever disgusted by the extreme left and their intent on sliding society into depravity. I'm becoming quite conservative socially.
>>69865998
They do have schools in Canada, don't they? It's always disappointing to see people from other countries display the kind of anti-intellectualism I've come to expect from American bumpkins soaked in religious faith, propaganda, and moonshine.
>>69865363
>and most socialists want to see rotating duties or elections
Both are horrible solutions.
>rotate duties
>no one really specializes in anything, what little experience they gain from the work is irreverent as they are shuffled to their next job
>elections
>most popular person gets to lead
gee I totally see how this couldn't be abused
Sometimes being the factory manager or foreman means making universally good but unpopular decisions. Of course a socialist would not be aware of this, being a minimum wage employee for the majority of his life.
> People are not "paid", they simply have their needs met through the collective labor of society
Then they fall into the complacent feedback loop that becomes every failed socialist state since the inception of the idea. With low incentive, comes low productivity.
>>69866198
Sure, because food isn't extremely profitable and starving people have so much capital to spend and labor to sell and when you think of modern capitalist societies you don't think of obesity since people all seem so underfed.
>>69853120
I usually tell people I vote for our animal party or for the reformed party depending on the mood I'm in.
>>69866411
And seeing as how Australians atm are more obsessed with the American election than the Australian one later this year, I find myself defending Trump a lot. So many people have an uninformed view on him, so I try to explain that the media exaggerates/takes his comments out of context.
Surprisingly Australia generally has a very negative view of Clinton.
>>69866501
>the kind of anti-intellectualism I've come to expect from American bumpkins soaked in religious faith, propaganda, and moonshine
I always find it rather funny how you leftist feel the need to mock the "proletariat" or common man your pretending to represent.
>>69866501
So you give up? All I asked was why a man shouldn't be aloud to better himself? Are you that much of a nanny state dependent limp wristed floppy cocked son of a bitch?
>hurr you can better yourself you just can't capitalize on it
Then what's the fucking point? How much do your parents make and how much do you make? I'd put anyone of my accounts on the fact that youre a useless libarts teeny with 2 white collar parents, that thinks he's doing the proletariat a favor, by shitposting on fucking 4chan of all places during his undeserved study week. Just giving me a well thought out answer that's not your info graph would be so hard wouldn't it? Life is so hard. You make me sick
>>69853120
gas the kikes race war now
hitler did nothing wrong
>>69866772
tfw when the communist is so gay and far left even a canadian wants to kick his ass. If you ever climb down off our hat and are in oregon I'll buy you a beer.
>>69866526
Decisions themselves are typically made through a direct democratic process (meetings of alternating representatives, etc). Implementation of those decisions are made by managers who are not given an authoritarian level of power over other workers - they are also just employees. Those are broad strokes, but talking about "socialism" means generalizing about 10,000 different implementations of the socialist ideal. There isn't one socialism, of course. If you want specific implementations or tendencies, I could try to explain those. But socialism isn't just one monolithic solution.
> People are not "paid", they simply have their needs met through the collective labor of society
>Then they fall into the complacent feedback loop that becomes every failed socialist state
Once again, as I predicted at the very beginning of this discussion, you are relying entirely upon attacking strawman socialism. There are no socialist states in the world. What is the source of complacency? Alienation. The workers don't own the product of their labor so they don't give a shit. Socialism tells the worker that the success of the business he jointly owns directly determines his material well-being and the success of his society. That prevents complacency.
It's capitalism (and especially state capitalism, here) that creates apathetic workers. It's the capitalist workers that spend all day goofing off and complaining about management. The only motivation they have to work comes from how tightly the capitalist class is willing to tighten the thumbscrews.
I simply say National Socialist and clarify that I have no admiration for Hitler and abhor what the Nazis ended up doing. It's simply a belief in government ownership of most industry with a significant welfare state a nationalist component because when you have everyone in the world coming to get benefits, those systems break down from lack of national pride and social cohesion.
>>69866772
>hurr you can better yourself you just can't capitalize on it
>Then what's the fucking point?
The point is what it should have been from the beginning - living a better life in a world where we work towards a better, more advanced future society instead of cutting each others' throats to accumulate more shiny objects and climb to the top of a silly social hierarchy.
What is the point of consuming all of our planet's available natural resources to produce wasteful luxuries for only a few people to enjoy? This world has no future at all; once we can no longer extract raw materials at the needed rate and growth becomes impossible, the global society built on this capitalist substructure will collapse and tear itself apart. What is the purpose of a world with no future? For hedonists to satiate their animal appetites to the fullest? Well, it doesn't seem to be making them happy anyway - America's middle class consumes enough Prozac to change the sex of entire fish populations. From a purely utilitarian standpoint (and only looking at "well-off" nations, not the perpetually-suffering global poor), capitalism is a depressing failure regardless of quantitative measurements of consumption.
>>69866198
Human nature is not influenced by any bullshit economic system, sorry buddy, humans are naturally shitty and individualist when put under stressful circumstances (such as the political upheaval necessary for communism)
No one has ever asked me directly. Some guy at work asked me if I was going to vote for Trump. I laughed, and told him that I didn't think that I should be discussing politics.
I actually think that I give off a liberal vibe. I live in the Pacific Northwest (we have a ton of hippies here) and I am a nice dresser. People probably assume that I am a fellow liberal.
I'm a libertarian. I want the government to provide the basics, namely to protect the people that it governs. That's pretty much all that I want the government to do.
>>69853120
Shitlord.
Bukharinite. Look it up faggots.
>>69853782
the only correct answer
>>69866895
So people get to vote for whatever company policy they wish to implement? This would just lead to shorter working hours and shorter work weeks, along with shorter shifts and all things that benefit the individual employee rather than the company at large.
>If you want specific implementations or tendencies, I could try to explain those.
Please do. Lets say you nationalized a firm that holds onto several companies that produce a variety of consumer products. How would you restructure this to fit under you new economic system? And how to you still manage to compete with the capitalist economies next door? (As I assume you still trade with the world in this scenario)
>Once again, as I predicted at the very beginning of this discussion, you are relying entirely upon attacking strawman socialism
Once again, as I predicted at the very beginning of this discussion, you are relying entirely upon attacking strawman capitalism. There are no capitalist states in the world.
I wish you leftist would stop using this argument, it's pure shit.
libertarian
>>69866895
(cont)
>What is the source of complacency? Alienation.
>implying there is only one single source of complacency
If your capitalist neighbors increase production and gain a key trade advantage, what motivates a workforce that already has every need taken care of to work harder to match? This is why socialist societies never stand the test of time. Your single track minded and assume that global economy will be a constant, without change.
> Socialism tells the worker that the success of the business he jointly owns directly determines his material well-being and the success of his society
So only on the verge of failure does the socialist economic system ever try to advert it's course? Sounds pretty stupid desu senpai
>It's capitalism (and especially state capitalism, here) that creates apathetic workers.
Historically this has proven to be untrue. It's capitalist economies with their wealth incentive that motivate workforces the hardest. Look at present day China, they learned this lesson.
I told my sister I liked Trump for causing SJW butthurt. It went pretty well.
Then again, she laughed her ass off after seeing what /pol/ has done to that twitter bot.
>>69867526
>babby's first "my communism is the REAL communism, and it hasn't been tried yet"
>>69855082
Her naked pictures Are breddy nasty.
>I don't really like politics lol haha
Fuck. Going to the most cucked college in America sure is frustrating
>>69866775
This is the only acceptable response.
I'm a nationalist and i support policies which statistically improve Norwegian living conditions
>>69853120
Usually that I think that it's pointless to choose a specific party or affiliation because everyone has a diffrent sense of beliefs and so on, regaurdless of what they say.
Definitely far left, whatever that even means. Sometimes I hate to say that because liberalshe think they are socialists or whatever. They fail to realize that they are so fucking insanely "leftist" (however you perceive that) that they go COMPLETELY full circle and become oppressive and fascist in a way.
>>69853120
Roving Warlord
I could probably drone on about this for hours but with my limited understanding of the left. Probably a hegelian dialectic or a marxist
>>69867281
>The point is what it should have been from the beginning - living a better life in a world where we work towards a better, more advanced future society instead of cutting each others' throats to accumulate more shiny objects and climb to the top of a silly social hierarchy.
So, you're nitpicking in this thread isn't you trying to climb an anonymous social hierarchy. How many trip fags are there in lefty/pol/? I've never been.
>What is the point of consuming all of our planet's available natural resources to produce wasteful luxuries for only a few people to enjoy?
That's not happening. Due to big government meddling. And for someone that most likely holds the heretic "time ain't wasted when your wasted" you sure seem to have a level of envy for magnates whos shoes you'd kill to walk in
>>69867720
>>69867720
>If your capitalist neighbors
There will be no capitalist neighbors. A socialist revolution will not be successful until there is no more capitalism anywhere. This is because any surviving capitalist nations will always wage war on socialism to their death. The capitalist ruling classes of these nations will resist socialist revolution just as the feudal ruling classes of Europe resisted the liberal revolutions of the 18th century.
>Lets say you nationalized a firm that holds onto several companies that produce a variety of consumer products.
>How would you restructure this to fit under you new economic system?
Again, socialism is not "nationalization". Socialism is not the same thing as state ownership of business. It means that the people own all of society's wealth. The people decide how much they want their society to produce, how they want to define their needs, and how they want to divide luxuries.
Socialism is not about nationalizing individual firms. It means democratizing the entire economy, everywhere. It is an altogether different mode of production - production for use rather than to maximize profit.
>Once again, as I predicted at the very beginning of this discussion, you are relying entirely upon attacking strawman socialism
>Once again, as I predicted at the very beginning of this discussion, you are relying entirely upon attacking strawman capitalism.
Things are not equivalent just because they share superficial similarities. You utterly refuse to evaluate socialism charitably by using correct definitions, while I will gladly accept the most positive definition of capitalism you care to make for the sake of this discussion. If we were really doing the same thing, then I would call capitalism "the amoral act of using starvation tactics and military force to murder innocent, powerless people far away in order to steal their natural resources and live like fat hogs". But I'm not going to do that, of course.
>>69853120
National Conservative
>This world has no future at all; once we can no longer extract raw materials at the needed rate and growth becomes impossible, the global society built on this capitalist substructure will collapse and tear itself apart.
So say we hit peak oil or the leftist fear pointe du jour. Why would that be reversed by living off less. We're propping up billions in Africa and the Asian subcontinent alone. Are you supposing we civilize these people while we strip the current upper class of what they fought for? Go ahead and try that.
>What is the purpose of a world with no future?
Create your own. Why am isurprised that creativity is lost on you? After bernie tried linking deodorant choices with homeless I've realized your lack of uniqueness is only rivaled by your full on stupidity.
>For hedonists to satiate their animal appetites to the fullest? Well, it doesn't seem to be making them happy anyway
I have to bring up over socialization again for the lack of happiness. And whas so bad about animal instincts. Theres kids in the animal kingdom. Are you really advocating for an industrial society whole you bitch about resources in the next fell swoop. Strange how no communist wants to go back to actual communes, let alone hunting and gathering. Again, you guys are fucking weak.
>America's middle class consumes enough Prozac to change the sex of entire fish populations.
Muh big pharma. Im not gonna start with xenoestrogens. Talk to me tomorrow
>purely utilitarian standpoint (and only looking at "well-off" nations, not the perpetually-suffering global poor),
Why? If your a global socialist and you leave the truly damned behind are you what i said you were. A waste of flesh in a private college just trying to prove your worth?
>capitalism is a depressing failure regardless of quantitative measurements of consumption.
Its depressing because you don't know how to play. It's easy mode next to socialism, feudalism ormonarchyifyouaren'tbornundertheleader,chieforintoroyalty.
>>69867720
>what motivates a workforce that already has every need taken care of to work harder to match?
Why should people always have to work harder and longer (to produce material goods)? Why has this become the goal of the industrial revolution? People used to think that the future would mean less necessary labor and more time for self-improvement. Yet the American ideal has become that everyone must work themselves to death for a smaller and smaller amount of compensation. Under socialism, people aren't put under the crushing moral burden to work harder and harder and harder. We use technology whenever possible to lighten the burden of necessary labor (a return to sanity, imho) and develop community and social structures to enable people to self-actualize and pursue the work that they love - work that can benefit society despite not technically being economically necessary.
>>69868274
>a hegelian dialectic
that's not how words work
>>69868542
>despite not technically being economically necessary
You know operating costs have gone up right. Insurance, taxes. Who's behind that? Tell me youve meant NatSoc and it's all forgiven friend
>>69868287
>There will be no capitalist neighbors
So you will cause a massive war then. Not content with just fucking off and running your own society, huh?
Given socialist track record with military strength and human tendencies for tribalism....
...good fucking luck with that.
>Again, socialism is not "nationalization"
Fine, you seize the means of production by whatever means. Question remains the same, go wild with it.
>>69868287
That's all very fancy and beautiful but show me on paper how you would structure such a society without having a class that has more power over others.
>>69868697
>You know operating costs have gone up right. Insurance, taxes. Who's behind that?
I'm not convinced you're actually reading what I'm writing. What does this question mean? I don't give a shit what capitalist governments do to manipulate their people in collaboration with the ruling class. The real power is in the hands of the owners of capital. Why is policy X being implemented? Either to prevent the people from revolting, or, otherwise, because it serves the interests of the rich.
Social democrat, liberal, conservative, reactionary, libertarian - politically, they all serve capitalism in their own way. The social democrats raise taxes and provide welfare during crisis to prevent the suffering poor from murdering the ruling class. They take away the welfare and cut taxes for the rich when things start picking back up and the greed gets out of control, leading back into the next crisis.
>>69869032
Ignore my other 2 posts and go for my end of thread meme. You're useless.
>>69868542
>pursue the work that they love - work that can benefit society despite not technically being economically necessary
Then everyone takes the jobs the require the least amount of effort to them. Your society will only cause mankind to slow down it's technological development in the long run.
Surely you must admit that some of the incentive to create such amazing feats of engineering comes from the financial incentive and payoff right?
There is a reason you never saw shit like pic related coming out of socialist countries.
>>69868872
>how you would structure such a society without having a class that has more power over others.
What is the origin of power? How are ruling classes generated? How can one small group of people have permanent control of the masses? It must be that there is some mechanism within a society that makes that power possible - a base of power. In feudalism, it was both religion, the divine right to rule, and total ownership of all land. In capitalism, it is the ability to own industrial capital that gives a small group of individuals their power. Take away that ability to make all the decisions about capital and the distribution of wealth it produces and you've taken away the capitalist's power.
This is the reason socialists want to "seize the means of production" - to emancipate the people from the capitalist ruling class by taking away their base of power.
i am a utilitarian, truth matters and is the only real right. because unlike everything else, it actually works.
>>69869229
Then either no one can make decisions about capital, or everyone can which is physically and logistically impossible, and you'll end up with a representative democratic process which creates classes.
>>69869229
>This is the reason socialists want to "seize the means of production" - to emancipate the people from the capitalist ruling class by taking away their base of power.
You know what's best for the rulers and the working class. You haven't yet shown us why. Oh enlightened one, who wronged you so?
>>69869148
>There is a reason you never saw shit like pic related coming out of socialist countries.
Again, those are NOT socialist countries, but as a matter of fact Stalin oversaw the most rapid growth in industrial production in the history of the world.
>Then everyone takes the jobs the require the least amount of effort to them.
This is a sad statement about the condition of people living in capitalist societies if their only goal in life is to reduce effort to the minimum possible. But then again, what do you expect from a people who are being worked to the bone to produce astronomical wealth to a plutocracy as they watch their standard of living disappear?
>>69869377
>Then either no one can make decisions about capital, or everyone can which is physically and logistically impossible
If we were having this conversation in the 18th century, I would be arguing that governments should be owned, managed, and run by the people. You would be shaking your head in disbelief and asking me how it could be possible for nobody to run the government - you would insist that governments cannot exist without kings. But, you see, we're having that exact conversation. The only difference is that we're talking about power involving the economic substructure rather than merely political power.
How can you have a government without a king? The people will rule. How can you have an economy without a king? The people will rule - and we will finally have a democratic society free of ruling classes.
>>69869229
>to emancipate the people from the capitalist ruling class by taking away their base of power.
...and award it to themselves, as inevitably all socialist societies heavily favor the leaders the prop up during a revolution
Your favorite little economic doctrine is a fantasy. It comes from a healthy place I will admit and is well intentioned, yet you are so naive you cannot see your fellow mans shortcomings.
>>69869421
> but as a matter of fact Stalin oversaw the most rapid growth in industrial production in the history of the world
By literally exploiting his fellow countrymen. The ironing.
>This is a sad statement about the condition of people living in capitalist societies if their only goal in life is to reduce effort to the minimum possible.
No, its a human trait. You see it everyday.
Humans take the path of least resistance through a crowd, lean on one leg to allow the other to rest, constantly look for shortcuts through things, etc.
We do it because it's logical to do so. Again, I say socialist fundamentally do not understand their fellow man.
>>69869421
For your plan to work, EVERYONE IN THE WORLD, has to buy in. Not happening
>>69869390
>You know what's best for the rulers and the working class. You haven't yet shown us why. Oh enlightened one, who wronged you so?
How silly. The failure doesn't seem to be my inability to explain (in too many words, probably), but your unwillingness (inability?) to read and respond intelligently without acting like I've just pissed on your golden calf.
>>69869634
Political power and economic power are not comparable like that. I do believe monarchy is preferably to democracy by the way, and I think you'd have a hard time arguing otherwise.
And you still have not clarified what you really mean by "the people will rule" which is what I asked you two posts ago. Show me an actual practical example of how exactly the people would rule. Marx was all about praxis after all.
>>69869731
>but your unwillingness (inability?) to read
Fuck you with your holier than though act. Answer my last serious post. I know there are better alternatives than what we have. It's not a golden calf. It's you proposing one and only one solution that everyone else here has deconstructed. You're a fucking idiot
>>69869641
>
>By literally exploiting his fellow countrymen.
Yes, state capitalisms and private capitalisms are built on the exploitation of the working class.
>The ironing.
Oh boy.
>human nature
We can never get away from this - apparently you believe that capitalist man has existed from the beginning of time (despite the fact that "human nature" was evidently much different in feudal, agrarian, or gift economies, mysteriously). And you seem to believe this because you say that human nature is never affected by social structures.
I'm going to assume that you think Islam is evil incarnate, as American reactionaries do nowadays. But if human nature is not affecting by social conditions, why should you think Islam is a source of evil at all? Jihadis, then, are not committing acts of terrorism because of their culture - they're doing it because it's just "human nature", right?
>>69869816
>Show me an actual practical example of how exactly the people would rule.
I have. Macroeconomic decisions are made democratically by people as a whole. Microeconomic decisions are made democratically by those who work in enterprises. I know you're used to an authoritarian economic system, but it's hardly impossible to imagine that system being implemented.
>>69870000
>(despite the fact that "human nature" was evidently much different in feudal, agrarian, or gift economies, mysteriously).
>chiefs
>land owners
>what
>And you seem to believe this because you say that human nature is never affected by social structures.
>social structures
Youre the one that wants to rid society of structures. Good luck with that
>I'm going to assume that you think Islam is evil incarnate, as American reactionaries do nowadays. But if human nature is not affecting by social conditions, why should you think Islam is a source of evil at all? Jihadis, then, are not committing acts of terrorism because of their culture - they're doing it because it's just "human nature", right?
That's not humanity. Theyre following Islam to a T. Booty blasted leftist confirmed
>>69870000
Nice quads.
>apparently you believe that capitalist man has existed from the beginning of time
Nope. I do believe it's the best system we've have found that truly synergies with the human thought process though.
>And you seem to believe this because you say that human nature is never affected by social structures.
Again, no. I do believe will still share a great many biological needs that our ancestors had themselves. It's important when we examine their societies that we identify why they did some things and what purpose it served them.
>I'm going to assume that you think Islam is evil incarnate
I think Abrahamic religion is fucked in general. The rest of your comment is strawmanning so I'm not bothering with it.
>>69870080
So what happens when people don't have sufficient education to make significant macroeconomic decisions and the economy starts crashing? Or are you so naïve as to think democratic rule will lead to a utopia? And what happens when some decide to start lobbying to try and push the democratic decision in such a way as to favour them?
>>69869920
>Fuck you with your holier than though act. Answer my last serious post.
I'm having trouble finding any serious posts. Maybe you could point out which one you meant?
>For your plan to work, EVERYONE IN THE WORLD, has to buy in. Not happening
It's not about "buying in". Socialists aren't interested in coming to your house and taking your meager collection of personal possessions. It's about outlawing the private ownership of capital and implementing a fully democratic society around that ideal. The ruling class might not like it, but too bad. It's up to the people of the world to overthrow them and liberate themselves.
>>69870203
No, no. You keep telling me to answer your questions - now answer mine. Is human nature affected by social conditions or not? Is Islam the source of terrorism or not? How can it be that Islam turns people into radical jihadists but capitalism has absolutely no effect on people's nature whatsoever?
>>69870289
Again. How will you convince the people to overthrow a comfy society and go into a total democratic turmoil when the leaders currently run the voting process.
>69868286
