Hey /pol/ I've got to do an informal debate on why socialism is a better economic system than capitalism tomorrow in my hist-099 class. My opinion is still up in the air about which is actually better but any input would be appreciated
>>69840080
That pic is so stupid. The joke is that all the things people were crying about are now commonplace.
Well, guess what? THEY AREN'T GOOD! The ones protesting against those things were right, none of what is listed in the pic should be Government-owned!
Socialism is not opposed to capitalism. Don't they teach kids anything in school today? You can have both at the same time.
>>69840351
Ignore the picture, but my basic stance going into this is that capitalism does work for fledgling nations to become competitive and efficient but does not work in the long term as it does not protect its workers or environment leading to a large wealth gap and class war
>>69840566
Sure worked out great for Europe, hasn't it?
>>69840080
Socialism is the superior economic system as long as there's no greed or corruption from anyone. So basically, if you have a single human being in your country, they'll fuck socialism right up.
Socialism is a monstrous failure and has caused massive suffering worldwide.
>>69840651
>Highest standard of living in the world
>Best medical systems in the world
>Highest per capita wages in the world
Working out great.
>>69840694
This, socialism only works well on paper. Throw a human into the mix and it's over.
>>69840949
Just like free market capitalism and communism. Only works on paper. In the real world both systems fall to pieces.
>>69840080
As someone who was born and is still living in a socialist country, after visiting Korea, Japan and America, Id choose capitalism anytime.
I dont give a shit about all the theoretical bullshits. Capitalism may be bad, but real life experiences tells me that socialism is even worse.
>>69840923
None of those things are true.
Thank god I don't live in a poverty ridden socialist shithole.
>>69841097
All of those things are objectively true. Check out the WHO ranking of health systems and the UN rankings of quality of life. Europe dominates America. Even some third world socialist countries dominate America.
>>69840651
yeah, actually. We are overrun by muslims and we still have lower crime and better quality of life than Americans
Think about that - even with a horde of rapey savages roaming their way through our lands, the average European is better off than the average American, both economically and from a security standpoint. Just imagine what Europe would be like without Muslims - there's nothing about socialism that says you have to import a bunch of third worlders. If anything, capitalism is the one that objects to governments imposing artificial barriers to labour movement.
>>69840080
Socialism doesn't work at all is an economic system. Funding socialist programs by taxing a capitalist economy is fine though, just so long as you don't tax too much.
A capitalist economy is like an engine. Drain too much wealth from it every year and it will completely stall.
Also not taking much wealth out of it can enable it to produce tremendous wealth.
>>69841050
except free market capitalism is shitty, we know that
it's just the least shitty
>>69841097
I spend a lot of time in norway. Its far from a shit hole.
FREE MARKET HEALTHCARE WORKS
http://www.freenation.org/a/f12l3.html
Government run healthcare is fucking horrible and expensive.
The usa needs to go back to a free market style system so prices can come down.
Trump will at least get usa started on the road to this with his healthcare deregulation plan.
>>69840646
Socialism has been decidedly worse on the environment, and Socialist unions were exposed during the Polish labor movements rebellion against the Soviets.
>>69841228
The US is even more over run with blacks
>>69840651
Kek this retard. our problems come from immigration, not our economic system.
But it could be better, our taxes are a bit too high and we have a bunch of problems with education.
>>69841445
>11%
>overrun
>>69841212
>who rankings
The NHS is joke.
In Europe you spend most of your life paying taxes. It's fucking bullshit.
And your houses are extremely small.
Fuck Europe.
>>69840923
>Importing millions of mudshits
>they began demanding sharia
>falling white birth rates and skyrocketing brown birth rates
>No go zones in many major cities
Sounds like paradise
You should start with Mao Zedong and how he killed 30 million people. Use "population control" as your central argument
>>69841050
Capitalism has improved the lives of people more than any other economic system in history. It's an astonishing success. Communism succeeded at nothing besides making people not have to feel jealous of their neighbours being richer than them, just their politicians.
>>69841303
>reducing an entire nuanced political ideology with many different manifestations as a single example
niiiice. It's the equivalent of me saying, "Hitler was bad! All right wing politics are bad!"
>>69840080
appeal to emotion very often
It's a valid way to debate if you succeed
The only real socialist countries on earth are north Korea, Cuba and maybe Venezuela.
I think this debate is pretty much case close.
>>69841723
None of those are socialist. Those are communist. And no, since you're retarded, socialism and communism are not the same thing.
Capitalism transitions to Socialism naturally. For instance, when robots can literally replace all manual labor. If you try to force Socialism too early, all you get is a shitty system. It's like trying to play Crysis on a shitty laptop.
>>69840351
None of that shit is socialism because socialism isn't the government doing things with tax money.
It's using taxation to redistribute wealth.
>>69841445
No you silly, its overrun by Mexicans and latinos
>>69841458
Your economic system invites immigration, but can't even sustain it.
>>69841533
More dank memes if you got em
Socialists want other ppls money/assets because they are angry.
They are angry because they cant get a good job.
They cant get a good job bc they are inferior.
They are inferior because they have a low iq.
They have a low iq because their parents had low iqs.
There parents are socialist as well
Anger, inferiority, and socialism are passed on for one generation to the next.
IS CIRCLE OF INFERIOR LIFE
>>69841782
YES they are, they're the closest thing to it today.
The vast majority of their industry is controlled by the state.
You think Sweden is socialist or something?
>>69841915
No traitor politicians invite immigration.
>>69841915
Explain, in what way?
>>69841871
Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying here, but using taxation to redistribute wealth IS socialism. That's what socialism does, takes from the rich and gives to the poor until everyone is economically equal (except for the government workers, of course.)
>>69841993
No they're not even close. Sweden is the closest to Socialism today.
Capitalism - everything is owned by the richest 1%
Socialism - everything is owned by the workers
Communism - everything is owned by the government.
>>69840080
>socialism
>in 1790
>>69841924
>>69840080
Public Gulag system? Socialism! Come on, it's current year!
>>69841059
The reasons why Capitalism is bad (according to Socialists/Communists) :
A few people end up poor.
Most end up moderately well-off.
A very few end up wealthy, and a even smaller number become outstandingly wealthy.
The reasons why Socialism/Communism is bad (according to Capitalists) :
Mao
Lenin
Stalin
Castro
I rest my case.
Socialism did not exist in 1808 and 1842. The artist of this is fucking retarded.
>>69842079
>Sweden is the closest to Socialism today.
Lmao
How unbelievably retarded are you?
The Swedish state gets all this tax money and redistributes resources.
Not the "workers".
>>69840080
>talk to inner city parents (inb4 no dads)
>talk to flint, MI
>talk to those who lament the suburbanization brought about by the interstate system
>talk to the very disperse group of people who are imperceptibly worse off because of the misallocation of land and natural resources
>talk to those who are paying astronomical medical bills because of a system where nobody directly pays for anything and there is no reason to compete.
>>69842210
>>69842092
>The history of socialism has its origins in the French Revolution of 1789 and the changes brought about by the Industrial Revolution, although it has precedents in earlier movements and ideas.
History class. Pay attention, idiots.
>>69842092
This. The ideas of Communism and Socialism were formed around 1840...
capitalism just works m8, governments fuck the economy by thinking they have any clue whats going on. Know I am not saying capitalism does not have faults but everything has faults and we are much better off because of capitalism. The whole obsession with materialism is way overblown and retarded.
>>69842020
I think the distribution can expand to your fellow countrymen too. Socialism is based on human integrity, and that tends to be blind, and your government wants it structured that way anyway. So you can also add natives into the mix of immigrants of whom you want to help. Because that's Swedish socialism
But socialism implies too much. If your countrymen are the most depressed in the world, I don't think your country is suitable for a socialist, everyone-help-each-other-out-because-we're-Swedes mentality. There's no spirit to give, to the point that you're all forced to give your shit away for your countrymen
Sorry guy, your country is slowly sinking into the toilet
>>69840080
You should do it ironically. Celebrate the bad things about socialism (protip: everything). Sort of like A Modest Proposal.
>>69842079
Sweden has a freer market and fewer regulations on its economy than the US, only it has a large welfare state. It's still a very capitalist economy.
Socialism is where the state owns the means of production. Communism is a classless, stateless society where property is held in common.
>>69841704
>Hitler
>Right Wing
Look at this stupid Liberal.
>>69841303
>Socialism has been decidedly worse on the environment
This. Anyone arguing for socialism doesn't understand the tragedy of the commons.
all of those things suck ass
thanks for proving our point retard
>>69842617
>Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment.
Fucking idiot. You have communism and socialism backwards.
>>69840080
we have.
>private schools
>private water system
>private highways
>private parks
but if bernie gets his way there wont be private healthcare so rip that idea.
>>69841458
Swede, you're socialism only "works" after your previous decades of capitalism which you are throwing down the drain to become a race of slobs and degenerates. Immigrants have nothing to do with it.
>>69841782
>And no, since you're retarded, socialism and communism are not the same thing.
Said the person who didn't read the Communist Manifesto.
They're the same thing. Socialists are never placated and demand more. It's incremental Communism.
>>69840080
Socialism didn't even exist as a concept until the 1850s and I really fucking hate it when retarded liberals classify any government service as socialism
Public Highways didn't even fucking exist in the 1800s
>>69842210
When was socialism invented?
1917?
>>69840351
>THEY AREN'T GOOD!
wew
>>69841871
If you really want to be technical it's the government working to abolish property. Sometimes it's radical and awful, like in communist countries, sometimes it's done more moderately, with the government nationalizing industries.
Whether or not things like social security count as "socialism" depends on what you think their long-term goal is.
>>69841560
The only problem you could bring up is immigrants, which are only imported because of outside troublemakers and not the socialist governments.
I don't see why an average citizen wouldn't rather earn more and pick what to buy instead of earning a set amount and getting a set amount of things for free, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be, particularly in Scandinavia. It's only outside influences such as kikes and the EU that ruins everything. And while the average citizen is definitely better off in a non-socialist situation in our current society and known civilization, I believe an utopia would require a socialist government.
>>69840080
>fear of socialism existing before Marx
This cartoonist is literally retarded
>>69842838
And they're not even socialist, not in the traditional sense. They just have a bloated welfare state, It's easier to start a business in Sweden than it is in the US
the one fact that people don't understand is that the rich aren't stuck here like most of us. They can freely pick up their shit and move to another country that isn't going to tax them as much.
People that are stuck here end up having to pay more in taxes to afford socialist policies and there's no incentive for working harder to succeed, which is what capitalism provides.
>>69840080
>The only type of socialism worth supporting
>>69840080
You can win if the person you're up against is a retard and cant' debate for shit. Make appeals to emotions, make fallacies like in that picture, etc.
>>69841533
This. The NHS is notorious for extremely long wait times.
>>69840080
It's a matter of balance, if you go "Muh free market can cure cancer" or "The state shall control all resouces now and provide for everyone" It's going to be shit, capitalism has proven itself to be least shitty and the backbone of most economies, but you nees at least a bit of socialism to avoid ending with children in the coalmines.
>>69840080
b8
>>69840923
>Highest per capita wages
My sides
>>69842684
Well you're the expert on not understanding the tragedy of the commons, senpai
>>69841704
That's the problem with the "capitalism" vs "socialism" debate in general. Modern countries have a market economy with some level of state intervention. The real question is what the best and appropriate level of that intervention is.
But that's a technical question, and it's easier for people to latch on the scare words and pretend they know shit.
>>69842656
I don't understand where you people come from. I assume you've never been to college and are surrounded by others who get their information from AM radio.
Pretty sad desu
>>69843126
There's also another side to it that people don't get. Rich people are generally wealth producers. The produce all the wealth in the economy almost. This is how they get rich. If you tax their earnings a lot, they have a reduced ability to invest in new ventures. So investment goes down. They are also of course less motivated to bother taking huge financial risks when they get taxed highly on large earnings. That quickly becomes a vicious circle and you love much more tax money by taxing rich people a lot via reduced wealth creation in the economy.
>>69843140
Kinda what I'm planning, I was the head of my debate team in high school and the girl I'm up against is your typical college women's studies feminist so I can pretty much get away with anything during this debate
>>69841097
> I don't live in a poverty ridden socialist shithole
Give it time. You will be.
>>69843315
This means nothing though. Wages go up in time too. Every currency slowly devalues like this.
>>69841097
excues me mr dude weed
>>69840080
Half of the drawings Don't even make sense because the term socialism wasn't even fucking coined until like 1848 or some shit.
>>69840823
You could make the same case for capitalism, as millions are homeless with plenty of unused clothes, food and shelter to house them, 2 major economic crashes that have devastated companies and people alike, and much more deaths have occurred under capitalism in total (Belgian Congo, British India, Native American tribes in the conquest of NA etc.) because they want to cinquer land and maul over for resources for economic gain. Don't hold capitalism to a golden standard if you can't look back at yourself and not say the same thing.
>>69843308
A "little bit
tends to hurt more in the long run than it does any good. Social Security for example, which operated off the assumption that there would be more working people than retired seniors and also assumed that any surplus would be stored and untouched instead of being used as a slush fund by the government.
No socialist policy works in the long run nor can it be properly fixed without increasing its burden. Every capitalist policy works, or it's abolished and something better is put in it's place.
>>69842414
They didn't call it socialism back then though idiot.
>>69843702
>because they want to cinquer land and maul over for resources for economic gain.
What has that to do with capitalism? Socialist economies pull the same shit for the same reasons.
>>69843762
>No socialist policy works in the long run
Public roads don't work in the long run?
>>69840080
1. Shit schools now.
2. Flint poison water.
3. Our highways look like the surface of the Moon.
4. Public parks are camps for bums, rapists and drug dealers.
5. V.A.
Socialism. Not even once.
>>69843985
>public works are socialism
>>69843866
Russia immediately pulled out of WW1 when communism came to power. It wasn't till Lenin was gone that the Soviet Union became aggressive. Socialist governments aren't typically expansionist in principle, and haven't been.
>>69843985
>public roads are socialist
wew lad
>>69843537
Read a book, faggot.
>>69844088
What makes them not socialist?
>>69844201
They aren't means of production.
>>69844303
nor is social security
>>69844364
Correct.
>>69843762
>Every capitalist policy works, or it's abolished and something better is put in it's place.
Don't socialist policies do this as well?
And the social security fiasco had little to do with being social and more to do with overpopulation and baby booms. It should sort itself out in about 20 years when the baby boomers bite the dust.
>>69840080
Try to invoke Lenin and Trotsky, their speeches held hope for a future unseen. Mao and Stalin... we saw how those turned out.
>>69844175
this, really.
>>69844394
:)
Every poster on /pol/ has a different definition for socialism. I just work with how they are using the term.
>debating in favor of socialism
Is the debate next week about why white men should wear chastity cages?
>>69844175
>>69844456
He could call himself a "socialist" but basically everyone on earth (except for cucks like you) understands that Nazism is literally the most "right wing" ideology there is.
Just because he's was an enemy of "today's [JEWISH] capitalistic system" and instituted programs for the volk doesn't make him a leftist or a socialist.
He was a Fascist, a Nazi, part of a radical right-wing ideology based on authoritarianism and racism. Period.
>>69844562
In fairness, debating for things that are ridiculous is a great way to improve your skills.
>>69844640
no, the fact that he is pro socialist values makes him a socialist.
Obviously he is right wing is a lot of ways too.
>>69844640
Sh... /pol/ knows that the holocaust is propaganda.
[spoiler] I don't actually see why it can't be true AND used as propaganda[/spoiler]
>>69844705
I once had to debate on the side of tumblr-wave feminism. It was actually fun, cathartic even, in the same way that breaking stuff you won't miss feels good.
>>69844640
Why can't you just call nazis socialists? Do you have some sort aversion to it? Just because they mixed in some conservative elements doesn't not make them socialists.
>>69844640
So not only are you ignorant of economics and history, but also politics. You clearly do not understand the left-right spectrum if you want to label Nazis as right. Protip: the spectrum was formed based on where the jacobins and liberal nobles sat in the National Assembly during the early days of the French Revolution.
Read a book, nigger.
Socialism is immoral because it's existence depends on the initiation of violence of the state unto the people. Taxation is theft.
Redistribution of wealth is also pragmatically inneffecient and most exposed to curroption. When the state monopolizes an industry it eliminates competition, therfore the incentive to provide the best service at the best cost to the customer is eliminated because there is no threat to take away business from competitors. All socialist programs are extremely costly due to this and are opportunities for political corruption allowing the giant corps to get exclusive government contracts shielding them from the market. So essentially socialism becomes fascism through the implementation of it onto a free market environment
>>69844364
But it is a forceful redistribution of wealth and wealth is used for production.
>>69844773
>he is pro socialist values
He really wasn't, though. Marxists wanted to end alienation by changing the economic order, Nazis wanted to end it by subsuming the individual in the master race's will to power.
>>69844931
s-sorry
>>69845020
>Why can't you just call nazis socialists?
Because that's fucking retarded, and a stupid talking point used by conservicucks to try to slime people and policies they don't like.
Why can't you admit that nazism was a right-wing ideology?
>>69845084
You have 15 minutes to search wikipedia and this is the best you come up with?
>>69845293
As are roads
>>69840080
>1790
>Socialism
Spot the historically witless lib-tard
>>69840080
>hist 099
Why even bother?
Here are my biggest issues with Capitalism:
1. A lot of resources and effort goes into making what is essentially useless shit like iPhones, that nobody reallly needs
2. Capitalism encourages jewry, ie. money that is earned through making actual useful goods and services is seen as equal to money made through just speculation and unjustly
THis is why maybe natSocc is the best.
What do Ancap bros say to this?
>>69844640
>I failed history, the post.
Dude, you can deny it all that you like but National SOCIALIST is a dead giveaway.
You sound like Obozo when he denies that ISIS is Islamic.
Stop showing off your extra chromosome.
>>69840080
From this lense, socialism is the entire basis of government. You take money from everyone and use it for the good of everyone. This is not the way things work naturally, however, but it is necessary for a police force, currency, and punishment that enforces the system of capitalism.
Capitalism (except anarchocapitalism) is a socialist system to begin with, but many think of socialism being communism. Communism (or Marxism) is "from each according to ability, to each according to their need".
This video explains everything you need to know about socialism and capitalism,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEnbELzOldc
>>69840080
Marx wasn't even.born until 1818....I r teh confus
>>69845554
>I can not compete and you have nicer shit than I do.
I will decide that shit I need and WANT and fuck you for whining about it all.
Kill yourself.
>>69845585
>National SOCIALIST is a dead giveaway.
Yeah, just like the democratic people's republic of Korea, right?
>>69845554
>useless shit like iPhones
iPhones are incredibly useful. How is having easy access to all the worlds information no matter where you are at any time, not useful?
Roads are not needed either. They are just make life easier and improve peoples quality of life. Capitalism is excellent at creating that shit.
>money made through just speculation
There's nothing wrong with speculation.
>>69840080
Nobody was afraid of socialism in 1780...
>>69845313
>Hitler used keynesian economic policies, encouraged by leftwing nuts like Krugman today
>Wanted policies like the minimum wage, social security all supported by the left wing
>Totally right wing right?
>t. DemSoc idealogue
>>69843308
Capitalism itself ENDED children in coal mines.
It's not necessary for children to work in developed wealthy societies.
Even without the government and their laws.
>>69845709
So, even as he was proud to say he and his party was SOCIALISM, you insist it is not.
Tell ya what. Drink everything under your sink that is marked "Poison" because words mean nothing.
>>69845313
I want to live in the bizarro world you do where wanting socialized education, healthcare, and retirement are right wing policies.
>>69843702
>2 major economic crashes that have devastated companies and people alike
YES caused by the government and their currency manipulation monopoly.
You were saying?
>>69840080
Also the argument in the u.s. isn't that gubment shouldn't do stuff. It's that federal gub shouldn't. States, counties, cities sure. Also highway system fucked beyond belief as well as schools. And the fed gub attaches social riders to funding for each CONSTANTLY.
>>69845700
I am not complaining about people having nicce shit moron.
I am merely commenting on the fact that a lot of effort, resources and capital gets devoted to trinkets that do not really advance civilization.
often the things you think you need and want might not really be what is best for you.
Which is why we need to encourage patriotism, facism encourages people to aspire to be more than mindless consumers.
>>69845313
>policies they don't like
It has nothing to do whether I or anyone else likes the policies or they don't. And "socialist" isn't a slur. It's an economic ideology based on government ownership and redistribution to the people.
This is basic shit here
>>69840080
>Public schools are awful though especially nowadays when they are Government centers for brainwashing children into insane European hating lefties
>Eh this might be ok but I bet a true and fair competitive private sector could do it better
>Eh this is probably fine
>This is probably fine but considering how many park workers I have seen strutting around and not doing shit I bet a ton of money is wasted this way
>Not sure how I feel about this because I am not that familiar with healthcare
The truth is the Government should be as small as possible and while socialist programs can be sometimes used for a few things in general it should be kept far away
The IRS didn't always exist and most taxes and are just rich people and Fed bankers fucking us in the ass
Except there were NEVER any arguments like that for those things....
Public Schools = people worried that religious schools (especially catholic) would subvert the nature of the Republic.
Water System = After the boom of the cities it became apparent that water was a public health need. It was never looked down upon as a socialist plot
Public Highways = As opposed to the private highways? The road system was always something states did. You paid a toll to pay for it, but it was always commonplace to connect cities/towns. Canals for isntance?
Public Parks = There was a huge movement to increase public parks for beautification. People didnt cry it was socialist. In fact, it had the backing of the major captains of industry at teh time.
>>69845554
>nobody really needs smartphones
Huuuurrrr duuurrr
>>69841527
More than 1% is overrun status.
See Africa...
>>69845905
>>69845804
>>69845931
Alright guys, we're getting circular here. Just look at my earlier posts and think about it.
>>69845813
Explain, please. I was under the impression that that was because of labor laws.
>>69845931
See, this is the game the Stasits like to play.
"Oh no, not THAT kind of Socialism..."
The spectrum is simple. State vs Individual. If one honestly believes that individuals can not be trusted to live their lives correctly, they demand that Big Nanny Govt (regardless of flag or title) force others to act as they wish they would.
Trying to imagine that some poor fucker in a Soviet Gulag was thanking his lucky stars that he was not in a Nazi Work Camp, is about as retarded as one can get.
>>69846093
Talking to leftists is really like talking to a brick wall. You can show the objective facts and they just pretend they don't exist and fall back on talking points. You still haven't proven how the Nazi Party's platform is not socialist.
>>69840080
that comic unintentionally illustrates how socialism has slowly crept in the door.
>>69845752
>iPhone
But is it really the best and most useful phone? a lot of the additional cost of the iphone just comes down to branding and tricking people into thinking it is more valuable when there are clearly cheaper phones with the same features
>Speculation
Not just speculation, Jewry! deliberate manipulation, corruption, environmental exploitation.
>>69845313
They both used Marxism.
The Nazis labeled Jews as the Bergeois and the German people as the proletariat. It's creating an enemy for the disenfranchised. Like how Soros is doing with Blacklivesmatter.
That's all it's about, pitting one group on another and picking up the pieces in the aftermath.
STALIN and LENIN were Commies, this shit is and will always be tied to Socialism.
>>69841282
This. Its the lesser of all evils. Truthfully all political and economic systems work great in theory.
>>69845313
Oh, I get it. You're so ignorant that you really don't understand what you're talking about, so you just resort to petty insults.
Welp, insults aren't arguments. Sorry.
>>69846017
>WAAAA WAAAA I Know what should be made..WAAAA.
Yeah, we get it. You are 12 and can not even into Economics.
Just who the actual fuck are YOU to decide what is a "trinket" and what I might "need".
Maybe YOU are the useless trinket and should be gassed for the sake of the species, faggot.
Got to bed, tomorrow is a school.
>>69845554
>nobody really needs
Liberals say this about guns.
Find a better argument.
>>69846131
The rate of child labor was decreasing well before the laws were enacted once families no longer had to send their children to work. This is the first time in history where no family had to send their child to work and yet people blame capitalism for child labor.
>>69846131
I could elaborate more but I'm on my phone
Okay so
For all of human history families had to have their children working or they would DIE
Capitalism ended that by making families rich enough that children didn't have to work and could go to school instead
Prices came down for common goods and wages rose.
Child labor was on it's way our long before government put on their stupid laws.
>>69846342
So in your opinion, making a useless phone with a lot less features that what is available in the market, and spending a shit ton of money on marketing and propaganda to convince people that they are 'cool' is a really good thing?
>>69846268
>a lot of the additional cost of the iphone just comes down to branding and tricking people into thinking it is more valuable when there are clearly cheaper phones with the same features
More than anything the iPhone differentiates itself by being extremely easy to us, "just working" and looking very nice. Turns out people like these things. They don't have the lead in this shit that they used to, but now people have brand loyalty and they still produce competitive hardware.
>deliberate manipulation, corruption, environmental exploitation.
That is a problem, i agree.
>>69846268
People like and want and need smartphones.
Who are you to say what's best for them?
>>69846268
>But is it really the best and most useful phone?
Yes, in that the people who purchase it believe it will be the best option for them. They are buying sleekness, they are buying "geek" cred, and they are buying ease of use (as in there is only one variety of Apple but hundreds of Android phones). You cannot look into the buyers head and say he does not really want that iPhone.
>>69846486
>>69846427
Thanks, I tend to look at politics through a local scope.
>>69845554
>speculation
So it's wrong to pay a guy who knows numbers and markets to anticipate how an industry will be?
Is it also wrong to buy a paper to know what the weather will be like?
How about you just not pay for the service? Is that really fucking hard?
You sound like a fucking Muslim who just hates shit because Allah told him.
>>69840080
We don't have public healthcare.
We have some sort of crazy shit that you still have to pay for or get taxed like bitch.
>>69845383
I'm sorry but public roads aren't socialist. You can't call every service the government provides socialist because it's not the case. Public roads have existed long before Marx was in his father's nut sack.
>>69846580
>need smartphones
No one needs a smartphone
>>69840080
I don't think socialism even existed until the fourth panel
>>69846783
Nobody "needs" electricity, plumbing, or fluoridated water either, yet here we are
>>69846580
My issue is not with smartphones, I totally agree that people need them.
My issue is that the iPhone is not really the best phone in the market in terms of features or performance. It's whole business model revolves around creating this false sense of superiority through spending a lot of money on advertising and brainwashing a technically illiterate population into thinking that it is 'better' and 'just works'.
Capitalism does not differentiate between a genuinely good product and money earned through jewish tricks. Eventually people end up becoming mindless consumers.
>>69846517
>WAAAA I am sooo brilliant!!
Sure it is, faggot. If you want it, buy the fucking thing. If not, don't fucking buy it. What you hate, what you fear, is LIBERTY and FREEDOM of CHOICE!
I happen to really LIKE my Android phone. It has features that I ENJOY and USE on a regular basis. If you want my opinion, Android rocks BUT if you PREFER an I-Phone, why the FUCK should I care on any possible level?
>>69846580
Smartphones are fucking degenerate.
I still have the same flipphone celly I bought 15 years ago. Still works just fine. Can still call people and send texts.
>muh Iphone
>I need to browse the internet 24/7 even when I am not at home
>I need to take a selfie :^) haha so wasssted
Faggots.
I want to smash all smartphones with a sledge hammer.
>>69846517
Are you fucking stupid? Smart phones have put the resources of the internet into the palm of your hand? That's a huge advancement in technology but even if it wasn't? So what, the world doesn't exist to serve you and thats what I hate the most about you people, you think the world should be about giving you something at all times. No, fuck you, the world best serves others by serving itself first.
>>69842956
>I really fucking hate it when retarded liberals classify any government service as socialism
You're ignorant of your own countrymen. The ones whining about socialism and big govts is conservative. Liberals are making fun of you.
>>69840080
The term socialism wasn't coined until the late 1800s
>>69846778
I'm a capitalist and I agree with him. If socialism is government control of the economy, then what are public roads but a subset of socialism? Especially when private roads can and do exist.
You can argue that some forms of wealth distribution are okay or even necessary, but you cannot argue that they aren't wealth redistribution.
>>69840080
this pic is the very reason we even have:
private schools
bottled water industry
? if we could have private roads we would
gated communities
non-obamacare doctors
>>69840080
The funny part about that image is that the public school system is getting worse as it gets more standardized and centralized, the public water systems of most cities are absolute literal shit, public highways are falling apart due to the massive bureaucratic graft that happens in a state-monopolized maintenance system, half of our public parks are just crackhead zones, and healthcare gets more and more expensive the more the state regulates it and funds some corporations over others, destroying competition.
Socialism's main evil is that it is added a little at a time, at first for benevolent purposes, eventually becoming larger wherever it is applied until it becomes untenable.
>>69846868
Are you saying iPhone factories should be public utilities? That's retarded.
>>69847028
No conservative in this world would label a public road as socialism but roads and police are one of the first things bumfuck liberals bring up when people disagree with socialism.
>>69841533
Where in the world do you not spend most of your life paying taxes?
>>69847103
Nailed it, Bro.
>>69847138
Need is not a right.
>>69846891
Okay I didn't realize there were so many Apple fanboys on this thread. you guys are getting overly stuck up on this and missing the point.
Capitalism does not really encourage societies to build good products, but rather provides a lot of incentive to make the product SEEM like it is good.
A lot of effort goes into useless packaging, excessive amounts of efforts go into marketing etc.
>>69847014
see >>69846870
>>69840566
Thats true. Socialism needs capitalists to leech off of, otherwise the whole system will collapse.
>>69847240
No shit
Are people in this thread just going off on their own tangents or something?
>>69847188
Taxes are fine.
The question is, how MUCH of what you make should be taken in taxes.
100% is a slave.
A European serf was expected to give over 1/3 of their crops / work to the Lord of their land.
At what point is it too much?
>>69847073
capitalism is an economic system, it doesn't run governments and things like public roads, aren't a wealth redistribution, it's infrastructure. one generally needs roads in order to travel in a relatively comfortable and efficient manner. They're also necessary for the efficient movement of supplies or manpower.
Someone taking my money to give to a useless shit or to give that useless shit a service is wealth redistribution.
The government taxing me to maintain a road I travel on is not.
The problem these days is that leftist now want to include any government service under their banner so when people call them out on the stupid shit like Social Security, they bring up roads or police and say you're against those services as well then.
>>69840080
1879 and 1808 Socialism. You are an idiot.
>>69847241
>HURR LE APPLE SHILLS
If stupid people want stupid shit who the fuck are you to tell them that they shouldn't want it.
You're just an angry fedoratard with a chip on his shoulder.
>>69847241
I disagree.
While many people are dumb and fall for marketing superior performing products always rise to the top unless the difference is really small in which case the better marketing/style can still win.
Socialism takes away the incentive for people to invent/create or improve in whatever field has been taken over by big Gov.
>>69840566
that would be called a mixed market. its neither socialism or capitalism.
>>69847329
NatSoc is the way to go.
NatSoc does not discourage private ownership of property, and allows people to become rich.
But, NatSoc also encourages attitudes of compassion toward your fellow countrymen, and a realization that your liberty and economic prosperity rests on the sacrifices that your previous generations made for you.
Thus, people should have a moral responsibility to help the elderly, the disabled veterans and the genuinely disadvantaged.
>>69847241
>Mongoloid noises.
Apple Fag? Me?
Try some reading comprehension, faggot.
I refuse to own Apple shit and I own and Android phone.
Have you seen the utter SHIT to come out of Socialism? Fuck, ever seen a Soviet car? Do you notice the garbage that China makes?
Capitalism relies on Economic Natural Selection. If your product is shit, no matter how you advertise it, it will die off.
Again, who the actual fuck are you to decide that anyone should need or want?
>>69844640
>Nazism is literally the most "right wing" ideology there is.
As an An-Cap, I take offense at that statment.
we worked hard to be the most radical and most extreme right wing idealogy there is and we won't give it up to a bunch of socialists who don't understand basic economics and make the keyesian school look amazing.
>>69840949
socialism doesn't even work well on paper. take bernie sanders proposals, they are intentionally incomplete and vague to appeal to the masses and fail under even a basic level of comprehension.
>>69846073
>Public Highways = As opposed to the private highways? The road system was always something states did
Wrong. First roads in the USA were made by private companies.
>>69847162
>what is satire
It's mocking you for cheering picking what is socialism and what isn't. Your shitty definition of socialism being "government involvement" is the problem.
Of course public roads, public parks, free highschool education isn't socialism. And neither is universal healthcare and free tuition (yes we all know it's not free like pro-life isn't pro-life).
>>69847443
>things like public roads, aren't a wealth redistribution
Tell that to the man who barely drives yet pays anyway, or the man who makes twice as much as me yet pays more than twice as much in taxes or what have you. If everyone got more out of the road than what they put in, then they would pay for the road themselves.
To say that roads don't fall under capitalism is stupefying as I just pointed out that private roads exist -- not to mention other privatized alternatives to roads. Clearly, capitalism "runs" these things.
While the socialist is incorrect in saying that because government service X is good, all government services are good, you are equally incorrect when you say government service X is good but government service Y is bad without any further justification. As a capitalist, you are undermining your own argument when you say that the free market is better at providing services A, B, and C but fails at providing service X. All I'm asking for is intellectual honesty.
The iPhone is a wonderful example of irrational consumer behavior that makes it difficult to have perfectly competitive markets. People are quite literally buying the brand and not the product, and it is a premise of the perfectly competitive markets which (supposably) make capitalism work that people will be blind to branding and will be willing to jump shoot immediately when it makes economic sense to do so.
Capitalism really is the most efficient economic system possible in the "spherical cows in a vacuum" sense, but trying to translate that into the real world runs into so many problems. Like people being idiots (instead of being perfectly rational and omniscient god-like beings). And firms having start-up costs/times (instead of opening for free the same day an opportunity presents itself to make a profit). And the finite nature of certain resources (instead of living in a non-euclidean univers in which there is an infinite amount of space to build roads around your house, allowing you to choose which private road service you would like to do business with). And so on.
>>69847754
Well, I will say this for "Muh Socialism". It always turns out that in the end, there is nothing on the shelves so one need not worry about what to buy.
>>69840080
The socialist calculation debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_calculation_debate dismantled the idea that socialism (using the traditional definition) is anything other than a lecherous system that detracts from progress.
Aside from that, fuck all of the muh inequality garbage. People aren't equal and don't deserve to be. Also, who are socialists to say that income is the only fucking good thing there is in life, and that being wealthy means being happy and successful? Why don't we forcefully redistribute friends or family? I don't have a gf, and chad has 10! it's because I'm being oppressed
>>69841616
>number of Westerners who support Mao and excuse his mass murders: very few
Why the fuck is this always a point in debates like this?
>>69847941
>jump shoot
Wut? I meant jump ship. No idea how that even happened.
>>69847688
>NatSoc
National Socialism you say?
Are you going to put Apple owners in a concentration camp?
What next? Samsung users?
>>69840080
>natsoc = newfags delusion
>socialism = babbys delusion
>anarchy = spoiled brat's delusion
>libertarian = spoiled brat's delusion
>capitalism = the only system worth having
Socialist programs =/= socialist economy
/tthread
>>69847941
>I R BE SMART!!! DO AS I SAYZZZZ.
Tell ya what, put up a "Gofundme" to move your worthless ass to any country you like and we can all toss money at it.
>>69848072
what is the difference between le lolbertarian and le capitalist?
>>69847838
and the colonists and pioneers used roads that the natives originally made and they klater improved them. Take for instance NYC, a lot of the shit of today was already lenape footpaths when they got there.
>>69847727
Ancap is a retarded ideology though. Capitalism cannot work without govermnent enforcing private property. It's an inherently contradictory ideology.
>>69847368
>A European serf was expected to give over 1/3 of their crops / work to the Lord of their land.
That's 1/3 of their own personal yield, by the way, not counting what they produced while laboring in the lord's fields, which the lord kept 100% of.
>>69847961
>I don't have a gf, and chad has 10! it's because I'm being oppressed
I know dat feel.
>>69847941
Thank you articulate bro!
>>69848141
Libertarian are closet Globalists.
>>69847961
>eople aren't equal and don't deserve to be.
True, hence why slavery should be reinstated.
>>69848160
And my point is, just how close does one wish to get to "Slave"?
>>69842079
>Socialism - everything is owned by the workers
>Communism - everything is owned by the government.
You've got that backwards, buddy
>>69848152
>Capitalism cannot work without govermnent enforcing private property
Not true. That job can be relegated to PSFs and PMCs. That would also allow for competion, meaning better, more effective use of your money for your protection.
>>69847941
>People are quite literally buying the brand and not the product
And? Status is a real, desirable thing. Do you also get upset when people buy jewelry, luxury cars, or any article of clothing fancier than an Auschwitz jumpsuit?
The "perfectly competitive market" has always been a strawman used by economists to justify government intervention when reality doesn't meet the theory. It would be a horrible life if we lived in a perfectly competitive market.
>>69841621
You could argue that socialism/communism improved many lives as well, seeing as the USSR, Cuba, China, etc were some of the poorest places on earth for commoners until revolution occurred. People were still somewhat poor afterwards, but oddly enough, their living standards weren't much below those of other developed countries. Russia's life expectancy actually dropped when the USSR broke up.
>>69848152
Ancap maybe already destined to failure due to the non-existence of the state but its not inherently contradictory at all. Capitalism is just voluntarily exchange.
>>69848238
Slavery is a waste of resources.
You don't pay the nigger for the work, you pay him to leave.
You REALLY want to live with a bunch of dirty motherfuckers?
>>69840080
The irony of that picture is that 60+% of the USA's annual budget goes to welfare while you guys have a near 18 trillion deficit.
Lefty comics trying to shame reasonable opinions ignore reality.
The simple fact is that capitalism creates wealth, while socialism destroys it.
>>69841948
Epic meme post with no evidence or logical bearing.
>>69848313
"B...b...but... Dog Food is just as good!"
The "Muh Socialism" faggots, every time, Bro.
>>69840080
Socialism is the purest form of capitalism. It's capitalism where state entities are allowed to operate with agency, directly towards their own benefit.
>>69848238
When we lose the luxuries of running water and electricity, we most definitely will. From an anthropological perspective, slavery was an inevitability and a necessity to build civilizations before the industrial era.
>>69848315
You could but it would only shot off your extra chromosome.
>>69847443
>it doesn't run governments and things like public roads
Nonsense. Capitalism certainly is involved in those things.
Capitalists have funded building of roads before. Of course they needed permission of a govt. But when you have an enterpise and you need to transport good, roads become necessary. And thus the capitalist will get involved in the process of road building one way or another.
Capitalism requires capitalists to have a say in govt. Why the fuck wouldn't they, their business can be easily destroyed by the govt. This is why people who claim to believe in capitalism and want money out of govt are complete ignorants.
>>69842174
Epic dank meme
>>69848464
Can you say "Orwellian"?
>>69847941
>it is a premise of the perfectly competitive markets which (supposably) make capitalism work
false, see Coase theorem
>>69848238
kek you remind me of my 12 year old brother (when he was 12) trying to convince me that I shouldn't support legal weed. "welp guess you can't stop people from smoking pot or breaking laws, so murder should be legal"
xdddddd
>>69848484
>we
Fuck you nigger I know how to be self sufficient.
>>69846970
I have memes, too!
>>69848119
I have literally no idea what the point of this post is beyond "capitalism is literally perfect and if you say anything bad about it I will get really angry at you." Will it lessen your butthurt if I say bad things about leninism and market socialism? Or is it just the idea that someone would have the audacity to question the limits of capitalism at all that offends you?
Economics isn't a religious debate, and you should stop treating it like one. These are complicated real-world systems, and if you think the "one true answer" fits on an index card then you're just yet another useless zealot whose only redeeming feature is that you might smell slightly better than the average OWS hobo.
>>69848496
*Show off your extra chromosome.
![discretionary-spending-pie-2015[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/soZDZC3.png "discretionary-spending-pie-2015[1].png")
>>69848423
how dare you look at non-discretionary spending! this is the real budget of the USA, I learned so at the bernie sanders school of economics.
>>69840080
The dates are all wrong. Highways in 1842? Public schools in 1790? The fuck?
>>69840080
>socialism
>pre-1850
>>69848417
It's better to have robots and hence why most of slavery would be obsolete. But you can also have slaves for sex or have slaves just for the sake of having it.
>>69848484
True. It's why I never understand why liberals and many cuckservatives whine about slavery. Okay, sure enslaving a particular race without vetting for individuals that shouldn't be enslaved is bad but it's not like there was no rules to treatment of slaves. Slavery isn't the worse thing people make it out to be. It's been practiced in Ancient Greece and Rome and those were awesome.
>>69848669
It's like they don't even try.
>>69848590
You're reponsding like a child because you have no argument.
>>69848629
Then let me Barney this shit down for you, retard.
1. There is no perfect system.
2. Capitalism is the least problematic system and happens to be the default setting of the human animal OR corruption would be a myth in the "Muh Socialism" utopias.
>>69848591
Are you just shitposting? Your prior posts don't indicate you're contributing to the discussion at all.
>>69848594
>chavez
>sucessful
Wew lad
>>69840080
Socialism as a concept didn't exist until after the 1900's. Communism existed, but in 1905 people had no idea about it.
>>69848315
>Improved many lives
>Millions dead from starvation, Millions more dying in gulags or political prisons
Cuba went from a thriving small country to a shit hole in arrested development for decades with only the political elite being able to afford luxuries like fucking soap of all things.
And China stayed a shithole for years until they all but abandoned their communist ideals and went hardcore capitalist where they saw unheard of growth.
Socialism and communism never fucking works and to perpetuate the lie should be a crime.
>>69848767
Come on Australia, recognizing a sarcastic shitpost should be instinct for you.
>>69840080
>1790
>1808
>1842
>socialism existing
try again faggot
>>69848789
>You're reponsding like a child because you have no argument.
Yes I do, see here >>69847961
>True, hence why slavery should be reinstated.
You're responding like a child because you have no argument.
>>69848852
Amen, Bro.
Makes you really wonder what the fuck they are teaching in (Govt) schools today.
>>69848852
And then people try to point out Nordic countries of all places as examples of socialism working even though they gained their wealth through capitalism and are now crumbling because of introduced socialist policies.
>>69847688
I agree with nationalism, but not natsoc. I think we should take the children of impoverished family's and have the government raise them to be future scientists and engineers, and tell those single mothers and drug addicted fathers to go fuck themselves, they're not getting a penny in government handouts. The country's technological advancement will be on the shoulders of these children.
>>69848798
>This
Capitalism isn't perfect. Nothing is. But Capitalism is the best we've got.
>>69848141
lack of law.
>>69848952
I said they, not you.
>>69841251
This
>>69849074
which laws? libertarians, as far as I know, support laws against murder and water pollution, to start
>>69848306
>PSFs
>PMCs
Be more explicit, not everyone is into the nomenclature espoused in your ancap forums.
I'm guessing you mean private forces. You're not understanding what enforcing means. It simply means guaranteed by the might and authority of govt. Govt's overwhelming influence can prevent lots of bloodshed and has the courts behind them. Law comes into play, govt is the enforcer.
And in a democratic system, the villagers land have a say when it comes to private property. In an anarchist system, since it's up to everyone, it's the Wild West all over again.
>>69848393
Voluntarily exchange backed up by laws, govt guarantee of protection, system for those against change to speak against it, courts to determine if those changes negatively affect others (for example toxic waste in water), etc...
>>69849067
>Because 100+ yrs of utter failure for "Muh Socialism" means nothing!
>>69848990
You're an idiot. You don't have an argument that there's nothing wrong with slavery since not everyone is equal.
>>69848141
Well, you've got your anarcho-capitalists, and then you have the people like me who want a sort of egg government, it has a hard shell (foreign policy) and a soft inside (domestic laws), and the yolk is the resources of which we should have plenty.
>>69848971
Socialism has always existed, Marx was just the first one to explain it and name it.
>>69840646
>t does not protect its workers
so what, though it does, it's up to the entres to find better ways to serve customers and provide a more efficient and safer work environment. How many people got crushed by machinery in fords plants versus 1800s textile mils.
Capitalism is the manifestation of jewish culture into white culture with the ultimate goal of white genocide.
Using such things as "individualism" to lure you away from your community, and capitalism to make you greedy and care more about money than religion or family. they have destroyed white society.
capitalism exists to make jews rich, free market doesn't exist, and your free to only chose between mcdonalds and burger king.
fuck off cuck, it's time to take all private property owned by jews and cucks and return it to the people.
