In reference to Hitler attacking Russia:
Not to armchair general the furor, but why in the world didn't he listen to Guderian? It seems to me the south unit wasn't absolutely essential to capturing Moscow; holding back the army they were engaging would have been effective enough.
What am I not seeing? Was this just a moment of "decisions made in real-time are never perfect?"
Also, any wild speculation on what ifs regarding Russia and Germany remaining allies until after Europe had been conquered & solidified.
>>69803820
people like to meme hitler as what went wrong with operation barbarossa but they didnt even use his plan.
also listen to that recording of him with mannerheim in 42'. you can hear his general insight on the war. and said they wouldnt have invaded had they known how well armed the soviets were.
>Also, any wild speculation on what ifs regarding Russia and Germany remaining allies
That was Ribbentrop's plan
Ribbentrop realized that Stalin had kicked the kikes like Trotsky out of Russia during the purges so Germany could at least try to keep Stalin and communism from expanding with diplomacy especially since Stalin cared far more about himself and personal power than any ideology.
That's why he made the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in the first place.
Who knows why Hitler went full retard?
as for tactics I've heard Hitler abandoned the blitzkrieg and made other brain dead decisions because he got too cocky after what an initial success Barbarossa was. It's likely he just didn't care because he assumed he already won and the rest of the invasion was a victory lap.
I compare it to this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqED-b_F6mQ
>>69803820
They hated each other, if Hitler hadn't attacked them then, the red army would have eventually attacked later as Stalin had invasion plans in the works. That being said Hitler also waited to long to attack and underestimated the Russian winters, if he had waitied till the beginning of next summer things might have been different
>>69804460
>if Hitler hadn't attacked them then, the red army would have eventually attacked later as Stalin had invasion plans in the works.
I don't think that's correct. Originally when Germany invaded the Soviet Generals didn't even believe it they though it was "Anglo propaganda"
>>69803820
also they were never allies m8. non aggression pacts are far from an alliance.
as to what would have happend. UK probably gives in and makes a peace deal after some time. and the soviets would have likely been even stronger.
>>69803820
>Russia and Germany remaining allies
nah it's unrealistic.
First of all, Hitler's batshit insane race politics itself made sure USSR and Reich could be temporary allies at very best.
Second, this was a race for a global domination. There can't be two winners.
Third, everybody had a legitimate reasons to fear that USSR invade the fuck out of Europe when it will see the opportunity.
>>69803820
Because the drive on Moscow was a huge waste of time. The Red Army's production facilities were far east in the Urals, and their oil supply was in the south Caucasus. Capturing Moscow with the Red Army still in the field would've just created Stalingrad a year earlier. The Soviet government moved out of Moscow and to Kyubishev in October, where it stayed until spring 1942, and Moscow had only been the capital since 1917. Stalin didn't mind turning it into a pile of rubble and corpses.
The generals were all in on capturing Moscow as a symbolic victory, Hitler wanted to take away the Russians' oil first. Barbarossa was a compromise between Hitler's plan and the generals, and it was a disaster.
The next year, Hitler told them to STFU and that they were taking the fucking oil, but by then it was too late.
Fortunately, the generals got to survive the war and write the memoirs, and it's always a good idea to blame the dead guy. But Zhukov said that Hitler's strategy was the correct one.
>>69804561
Read about "Icebreaker" by Victor Suvorov. There's actually a healthy debate going on in Russian historical circles now.
>>69804424
>Who knows why Hitler went full retard?
nothing hitler did makes him a retard really. the dumbest call i can think of him making in the war was telling the 6th army they cant try breaking out of stalingrad and even then it was more about honor than just being stupid.
>as for tactics I've heard Hitler abandoned the blitzkrieg and made other brain dead decisions because he got too cocky after what an initial success Barbarossa was
source?
they didnt even use hitlers initial plan.
despite the memes about him being a moron during the war he was pretty level headed about the decisions he took (atleast from 39-44
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClR9tcpKZec
>>69803820
Hitler and Mannerheim discussing Russia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVqxoA52kjI
>>69805177
>>69805048
posted it first m8 kek
>>69805048
>was telling the 6th army they cant try breaking out of stalingrad
They were basically infantry, surrounded by a vastly outnumbering force with artillery and tanks. They would've been slaughtered instantly. I mean, part of that same surrounding force easily repulsed a Wehrmacht/SS attempt to break through the lines, and those guys were a Panzer army. The 6th would've had no chance.
At least by sticking there, they tied down a huge number of Soviet troops for a long time.
>>69805462
lel faggot my link's title is more specific OP is more likely to click how does that make you feel?
>>69803820
Why don't you go jack off to alt-history on /his/, your containment board? Say hi to the christfags and other exiles for me while you are there.
>>69804897
>Hitler's batshit insane race politics
Which he picked and chose at his convenience meaning at any one time he could ally with whoever he wanted
>this was a race for a global domination
It really wasn't. Britain currently controlled the globe. The original race had been to end communist expansion which, when Stalin purged the jews already ended.
>everybody had a legitimate reasons to fear that USSR invade the fuck out of Europe
Sure, but that's why you would supposedly try to not motivate them to invade (ie having a strong military in good defensive positions)
>>69805527
>>69805660
good sport
>>69805025
'Victor Suvorov' is David Icke-tier insane media whore, absolutely nobody in Russia takes his rantings seriously.
>>69805831
He was just the first, friend
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_offensive_plans_controversy#Books_that_support_Soviet_offensive_plans_existence
