Why is America so brainwashed into thinking that Socialism is evil. Me as a Cuban born Canadian despise and hate COMMUNISM. But i have recognized that socialism isn't communism and many countries have socialist governments and are some of the best countries to live in. Personally i consider myself pretty centrist politically but when i look at whats going on down in the States i seriously cant see why everyone isn't feeling the Bern. Ill be honest all candidates are pretty shite and i wouldn't pick him had he run against Romney a couple of years ago but he is better the shiniest of all of the turds. What do you think /pol/?
chan outreach program go away
saged
bumperino
>>69757652
>Cuban born Canadian
>plays identity politics
>bait
communism is the last stage of socialism, therefore your post doesn't make sense
Socialism by nature gives government more power, we in the US have the world largest government, trust us when we say we don't need any more....plus its a stepping stone to authoritarianism .......Sage faggot
>and many countries have socialist governments and are some of the best countries to live in.
Care to list these countries and why they're better than USA?
>Why is America so brainwashed
I don't know. I can't fathom why Europe rolls over on a daily based and lets itself get fucked in the ass, either.
He's a Jew. You shouldn't vote for a Jew.
>>69757652
Here's how I feel about Bernie. He's a career politician who has no idea how to run a business. He wants to offer free healthcare and free education to every American citizen. Which sounds great, but it isn't free. We're going to be taxed for it. It's only free if you're unemployed. And this is how America is different, we're capitalists. Your parents work hard so they can afford to get you the best healthcare and education possible to to get a good job and earn enough to make a comfortable living. And if they don't then you can work for it yourself. Personally I chose to join the military and paid for my education with the GI bill. And I don't want to be taxed to pay for someone else's tab when I worked so hard to cover myself. I feel like Bernie supporters want a free lunch, but it's coming off of my tray. Fuck off and go get your own.
>>69759206
>plus its a stepping stone to authoritarianism .
>muh slippery slope
>>69757652
You're in the wrong place for logical thinking like that; people here still think recreational drugs should be illegal.
socialism does not worked
it is disgusting
>>69760260
Thanks proxyfag
>>69760119
So Trump is a slippery slope to muh Hitler but Bernie isn't muh slippery slope to authoritarian communism? You libfags and your poor sense of logic.
>>69760314
eat a fireaxe
kangaroo
they desire short term satisfaction whether it be moral, spiritual or financial
>>69757652
>any country in the world
>socialist
Also reminder that Sanders is so economically illiterate he wants to bar the fed from raising rates if unemployment is over 4%
>>69760407
How the fuck can you be a people's democratic republic when you have a dictator
>>69757652
Are you really asking for an American to explain to you why stealing is bad?
>>69760119
Name a single point in history that a Government has through democratic measures gone towards minimal government, and not more government.
It's not a slippery slope when it's an obvious Marxist concept to slowly subvert things into a controllable chaos.
It's not a slippery slope when all of history tells you that the next phase in leftism will happen.
It's not a slippery slope when the authoritarians are fine with Sanders, because, he is the next step towards their Socialist scheme.
>>69760407
Running a nationality check with your proxy on will just give you that result, though.
>>69760616
Welp, he might just be that one guy - Valve released this connection map not long ago and there is a blip in Pyongyang in NK
You're an example of why Cubans aren't based and aren't white.
Sure first generation Cubans hate communism but the second generation reverts to communism just like all their other mestizo cousins. You're why non white immigrants shouldn't be let into white countries. You can have the most successful non whites in the world come in but those people have kids and their kids are just like the other trash that were in the shithole they fled.
>>69760758
ok
try it
leaktest
>>69757652
BEEEPBOOOOP!
Excuse me buddy! Me and my feisty red commiemobile are on our way to tax the evil rich white folks!
Ps: Donate your rent money, it'll be worth it.
>reddit desperately looking for Bernie support
>>69757652
You've been brainwashed by your government. Communism and Capitalism are both great systems at advancement but when you mongrelize the two it always turns bad.
>>69759472
I think New Zealand would be a good example. The country I live in takes care of it's people through many socialist programs.
For example:
• Minimum wage is set at $14.75/hour.
• Students get $215/week allowances. Student loans don't increase by interest rate, they can be paid over decades and only when you start working.
• Everyone gets free medical care until we're 18, free accident care for life.
• Sickness, disability and unemployment benefits, accommodation benefits are there for people that are unable to work for whatever reason.
• All families get paid to support their children
• Pensions for persons aged 65 years and over
One of our parties that have quite a few seats in government are talking about having free college tuition for the first 3 years, instead of student loans and universal basic incomes for all people
>>69757652
Fuckin leaf.
>>69761176
Hows internet speeds in NZ and jobs regarding IT?
>>69761176
basic income is unlikely to go through
>>69761246
they're basically giving away 200mb/s connections
i got upgraded from 50mb/s without even asking
there's a new cable being built across the pacific soon as well
jobs are hit and miss
auckland has loads
>>69761246
The government has a program called the Ultra-Fast Broadband Initiative that took place a few years ago. Essentially most of New Zealand's urban places are now covered with fiber cables.
I've got a 200/20 plan on me personally. There's two towns that have gigabit fibre.
IT is okay but it's really best in larger populated areas, Auckland and Wellington.
>>69761419
Damn, you sound like Denmark without the amassing of asylum seekers.
Sounds tempting imho
>>69760848
I'm a 3rd generation Cuban immigrant, and think the world would be better off if Communists and Socialists were completely liquidated. We should also use lethal force if necessary to protect the border from Illegals.
Don't resort to a collectivist mindset, or you've already become a small tool of Communism.
form of government doesn't matter, just the people.
sweden can be capitalist, commie or socialist, and it will still be good, right up until they import too many arabs and muslims.
the US will continue to downgrade as it imports more diverse ethnicities and low race value people, and jews cheer and push even harder for it
further, communism in the US just gives more power to jews. they already have tons of power with semi-capitalism. so it would accelerate the US destruction
>>69761527
get into rugby and you'll fit right in
>>69757652
The goal of Socialism is to become Communism. That's the whole point of it; a failed system
>>69761176
holy shit. What do you pay in income/property taxes? Is it single payer health care? Whats the % on that?
>>69757652
Communism is good. It's better than socialism.
I'm all for putting forward reformist demands and doing what Sanders is doing, but the long term goal is to convert like one in 10 or 20 of these nice friendly social democrats into a hardened communist, build a strong and militant anti-capitalist organisation in the USA, where it can do the most damage.
Capitalism is in a really weak position globally too, it hasn't been this week since the mid 2000's. Current trends bode really badly especially in the long-term for the right who will increasingly have to rely on outright fascists to supplement their failing system. Or abandon any notion of democracy altogether in order to preserve neo-liberalism.
Europe's a somewhat different story but the USA the latest demographic cohort that exists is the most left-wing economically and socially that there's been in recorded history. Europe has more embedded nationalism and has a muslim minority which can be utilised as a threat in order to frighten people into defending the status quo, but that just gives them 30 or 40 years of breathing space and plus Europe has still got stronger remnants of the 20th Century workers left than the USA, so despite the demographics not being as favourable in the short-to-medium turn they have more tools at their disposal than the American left, which is basically starting from zero.
>>69761800
How much does NZ rugby differ from AUS rugby?
>>69760645
It's a slippery slope when one thing leads to another thing which leads to another etc.
As is the case with everything you said
>>69761800
That try was awesome
>>69761805
>a failed system
Capitalism is a failed system if you're not a capital-owner and have to rely on your labour to survive.
It was never meant to be a system in which non-property owners made improvements in their lives, and the original capitalists in 17th and 18th century England were very explicit about this (Manchester School Liberalism to be precise)
Any instance where capialism has functioned with a modicum of social responsibility, such as having universal suffrage for both men and women, right to free speech and assembly, right to form unions and bargain for wages, a welfare state and pensions etc every one of those things had to be fought for in spite of bitter opposition from capitalists and their lackeys. There is nothing inherent to capitalism that implies those things, or that implies is should improve people's lives in the general sense. It's simply a system of accumulating capital in the hands of property-owners, those who have the state to defend with violence their property rights, and that's all it's concerned with on a fundamental level.
>>69761926
>Communism is good. It's better than socialism.
>Capitalism is in a really weak position globally too
>>69760645
Tbh Sanders is just a stepping stone in a much broader Marxist and Communist project, even though he's very moderate himself and his policies wouldn't do much harm to the cycle of capital accumulation in the short-term.
The difference is of course the idea that this constitutes "authoritarianism" which is nonsense - the point of communism is to rid ourselves of the tyranny of capitalism and production purely in the interests of the capital-owning class. Marxists, and I am one so I'll be totally honest about it, see capitalism as an impediment to the principles of liberty, I see it as the domination of the world's resources and political systems by a tiny handful of oligarchs and billionaires, and liberation from this authoritarian rule would come in the form of socialism, where the oligarchs and billionaires would be replaced by working-class ownership of the economy and the world's natural resources.
>>69761906
> What do you pay in income/property taxes?
>>10.5%: $0 to $14,000
>>17.5%: $14,001 to $48,000
>>30%: $48,001 to $70,000
>>33% from $70,000
>>Company income: 28%
There's no land tax in New Zealand
> Is it single payer health care?
It's a universal heath care system, so yes. No insurance middle man or anything.
>>69761962
Not really much at all. Our rivals are really Australia and South Africa. We're really religious when it comes to our rugby.
>>69759206
And yet you pursue other politicians that are even more authoritarian
>>69761086
What are you talking about, communism is "mongrelized" by statism by its very nature.
Marx's ideal communist society was stateless, yes, but he was basically the original hippie, bitching and moaning about how mean the government is and how much it sucks to not have stuff, but hey wouldn't it be super-neato if we just abolished government and all shared?
Communism is impossible. True communism completely defies human nature, and the closest approximation to it, socialism, cannot function without a state. Capitalism, on the other hand functions precisely because human nature is what it is, and can only reach its absolute ideal in a stateless society.
(The only problem with Capitalism from there of course, being that some asshole will eventually marshal enough force to establish a state. Unfortunately for literally everyone who brings it up, that is neither an argument against the moral tenets behind capitalism and anarchism, nor is it anything even approaching an argument for granting existing states more power.)
>>69762569
whoops, fixed
>10.5%: $0 to $14,000
>17.5%: $14,001 to $48,000
>30%: $48,001 to $70,000
>33% from $70,000
>Company income: 28%
>>69757652
>Why is America so brainwashed into thinking that Socialism is evil.
Marxism IS brainwashing.
>>69762310
The long-term rate of return on capital is very weak post-2008, hence why the world's major capitalists are hoarding wealth rather than investing it, and hence why central banks are working overtime to pump money into the system and counter the efforts of this rancid deflation and commodity price crashes which is affecting the whole word at the moment.
It's really desperate stuff, and if there's another banking crisis at some point in the next 5 years (and the odds of that are pretty good) all the fiscal tools that central governments would use to step in and intervene with the market failure would be ineffective since they're already being maxed out as it is!
It's playing with fire, us socialists simply to wait for these things to reach their conclusions. Put the people in a position of "do you want to continue with capitalism, or do you want to eat, have a home, have the rule of law and a chance of surviving the winter" etc cos I promise you when it gets to that point, just as it did in previous revolutionary situations, very few people are willing to starve in the streets so that their capitalists can be bailed out.
>>69757652
Daily reminder
>>69762620
>Marx's ideal communist society was stateless, yes, but he was basically the original hippie, bitching and moaning about how mean the government is and how much it sucks to not have stuff, but hey wouldn't it be super-neato if we just abolished government and all shared?
That's about as far away from Marx's actual writings as it's possible to get.
You literally haven't even read a page of the communist manifesto, have you? lol.
>>69760407
Daaaamn best Korea bringing the heat!
>>69762569
thats not bad dude. sales tax at 15? no estate tax i see, nice, nice. What about social security?
For single payer does the tax bracket include health care? In America both the employer and employee pay tax additional to regular income tax with our health care system. Same for you guys?
We also pay both state and federal income tax. We get our asses blasted with taxes here.
>>69762645
How the fuck do you have all those benefits and pay less taxes than me?
>>69762815
Why isn't the British Empire up there?
They killed more than 60 million in India alone, let alone the other colonies.
And that's not even adjusting for population scale either, that's just the raw number.
>The British Empire was proudly, openly, and definitively liberal-capitalist in both theory and practice. It became the archetype and indeed the template that future American-led post-WW2 globalised capitalism was based upon.
>>69757652
Take your shilling somewhere else, sudaca.
>>69762941
>How the fuck do you have all those benefits and pay less taxes than me?
Because they use their taxpayers money to meet the needs of their general public, you use your taxpayers money to keep Lockheed Martin's shareholders happy.
It's a sacrifice you'll be willing to make - after all you don't want your shareholding class to reduce it's standard of living in any way shape or form, right?
>>69762964
commies killed their own people
>>69762537
Your philosophical jibber-jabber has no basis in political reality. The fact of the matter is that socialism endorses the notion of large government. The oligarchs and billionaires would just be replaced by the political class bureaucrats who control the resources to ensure its distributed 'fairly' among the people. Communism is more authoritarian as you can get and only liberates the soul from the body. At least in a capitalist society you are able to vote with your wallet or consume other products. Where is that luxury in socialism?
Capitalism does has aspects of it which are not great, and, in fact, unbridled, unregulated and greed within capitalism has created our problems, but at the very least it allows for a better organization of economic society with competition, the creation of jobs and other things that have made our civilization so successful.
>>69757652
>OP isn't brainwashed
>>69761176
That's just welfare. Socialism is public control of manufacturing.
>>69762772
>Capitalists are struggling
>Lists all the ways statists are meddling with the natural operation of the economy
You communists must have the best Kool-Aid in the uinverse, judging by how much of it you drink.
>>69762828
>abolish the state
>abolish private property
The two central points of his ideal communist society, right there. If he were born in our era, Marx's entire wardrobe would come from Hot Topic.
>>69762964
Yet another example of stupid commies blaming capitalism for the sins of the state. Holy fuck you dipshits are out in force tonight.
>>69763078
>The fact of the matter is that socialism endorses the notion of large government
Not necessarily. Socialism (and I am one btw, highly committed, well read on the topic) is simply replacing to the capital-owning class with the working-class. You can have a government under socialism, but it's purpose would be very different and arguably redundant. After all, in socialist theory, the state is merely the "committee that governs the common affairs of the ruling class" so if the workers were the ruling class they could quite easily do without the capitalist state altogether and use direct workers ownership, co-ops, syndicalism, that sort of stuff, and manage their own affairs directly, thus not only reducing the size of government but effectively abolishing the liberal/capitalist state or making it redundant.
Nationalisation is a policy generally carried out by Social Democratic parties in the post-ww2 era as a temporary compromise with workers who wanted to have direct ownership and control of their working lives - that implies a big government, but it's also not at all inconsistent with capitalism. It's reformed capitalism if anything, capitalism with state command of the key industries and a welfare state, in order to curb it's excesses.
>The oligarchs and billionaires would just be replaced by the political class bureaucrats who control the resources to ensure its distributed 'fairly' among the people
Well if you think having the world's resources owned and controlled by oligarchs and billionaires, who by the way employ a large army of bureacrats, managers, administrators, executives and so on just like the state does to manage the day to day distribution of those resources, then that's your call but it's awfully charitable of you to be so deferential to the ruling class. Do you think they have your interests at heart?
>>69757652
"The goal of Socialism is Communism." -Vladimir Lenin
Socialism in America is a terrible idea, beyond the fact that we have way too many people and no close to no manufacturing jobs right now. For starters, the only time Socialism ever worked large scale was under Hitler, and that was National Socialism. America would have Global Socialism, where leeches come from all over to take advantage of a dying system, while money continues to leave the country along with jobs, because the only way that Socialistic policies work without a strong leader and a united homogeneous people is with the threat of death that came with Stalin and Mao, and even then that was only good for those in power, not the general public.
Not to mention that if he did enact half the shit he talks about, it paves the way for some fullblown Commie to get elected and fuck our shit up permanently.
If you're going to Socialism, National Socialism. But I'd say we'd be better off going to National Capitalism given our size and inherent inequality in work ethic anyway.
>>69762914
>What about social security?
There's a branch in the Government called Work and Income. It provides financial assistance to people that can't work, if they're unemployed, disabled, too old, or too sick.
Working for Families, a part of Work and Income helps with financial assistance for families with children.
Studylink, another part of Work and Income helps unemployed students, students that can't afford a loan, and students that can't pay for their accommodation costs.
>For single payer does the tax bracket include health care?
Everyone in New Zealand is covered for any type of injury, regardless if you're a citizen, permanent resident or just a tourist.
>>69763210
>Lists all the ways statists are meddling with the natural operation of the economy
The "natural operation of the economy" is none existant. There is no law of hard sciences that says the Economy has to operate according to market imperatives, and futhermore up until very recently the vast majority of human ecnomics.
Economics is a human construct as much as post-modern art or mongolian throat singing. It is not a hard science which has uncovered universal laws of nature, and it never will be.
>>69763210
>The two central points of his ideal communist society, right there
Yup but what makes Marx distinctive from previous socialists is that he employs a rigourously scientific methodology, directly taken from the works of classical liberalism btw, to make the case for those things. Again, the first 6 pages of the Communist Manifesto has this in detail, and the fact you're too badly informed to read the few pages of the basic text means that your arguing from a position of obvious ignorance, especially to someone like me whose literaly spent years of his life reading Marx.
Btw to be truly accurate, the purpose is to abolish class society, via shared ownership of private property (in this case socialism) which in turn leads to the bourgeois state becoming redundant.
In future please try to read the actual source material itself rather than ingesting all your anti-Marxist platitudes in meme form - it will serve you will in future discussions.
>>69757652
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Fuck off stop trying to destroy the country by electing a literal communist Jew.
Did you learn nothing from history?
>>69763485
>replacing to the capital-owning class with the working-class
class warfare gobbledygook.
>the state is merely the "committee that governs the common affairs of the ruling class"
A state is a state so long as it establishes order through the use of force. Also, falsely conflating capitalism and statism yet again.
>>69763885
Having read Marx doesn't magically make you or him right. Freud employed "rigorous scientific methodology" too, and yet these days most people recognize his findings as entirely incorrect.
On that note, you must be completely fucking off your nut if you're going to bring out the "not muh hard sciences" line against economics and then argue that your favorite philosopher and ECONOMIST was scientific about his work, but everyone else who disagrees with him somehow wasn't.
>>69762914
Social security is mainly paid for by the earlier mentioned taxes although theres a voluntary "Kiwisaver" scheme where people put away a % of their pay that the employee matches by a couple % for retirement or buying their first home. It's modeled on the Australian superannuation scheme.
>>69762941
The New Zealand govt has a policy of being as efficient and less bureaucratic as possible. Regulation and lawmaking is done in plain english with little to no loopholes. Pretty much the entire tax code is on a couple pieces of paper
>>69759806
this
>>69763032
THIS. The government spends so much money on foreign adventurism and so much bullshit.
Just so everyone knows, we spend more money on corporate welfare than human welfare (excluding Social Security which was a payed into program).
